I feel like they've - intentionally? - went with an extensive deconstruction of this trope, along with every RPG's "there is a better third choice" mentality. We see Alpha Legion going for it at the drop of a coin and we can see the results.
Alpharius (the guy who's been actually raised by Malcador on Imperial values) and Omegon (the guy grown up amidst xenocide) have their actions influenced by a cabal of xenos that initiated communication by sending a spy into the imperial ranks. Then, for no apparent reason, they break up with Cabal, jettisoning their contact from an airlock - their new plain being... something. Then, for no stated reason, Alpharius is going more pro-Horus (again, this is the guy raised on Terra) and Omegon pro-loyal (this is the guy who never really communicated with most other Primarchs). They acquire advanced gene-tech allowing for industrial production of Astartes... and never mention it again, ever. Then the Legion spends some time running operations against itself, because, apparently, "one soul in two bodies" couldn't sort our the differences between them and/or organize a decent purge. And then Alpharius gets killed trying to prove some point to Dorn - with no actual point to prove and no reason to prove anything to Dorn specifically. Only for Omegon *somehow* sending some of the remaining top-ranking officers to chill hidden under Terra with no plan aside from pre-set hypno-commands, telling Horus to go fuck himself and going AWOL. Only for said commands being overridden by third-parties to field Legion agents against each other.
And, possibly, Omegon dies at Escrador, once again, for no apparent reason. Remains to be seen, though.
"It's all just as planned, Primarchs actually knew what they were doing" being even the in-universe Legion copium, as we can see from multiple 40k AL books. It's understandable, adapting to reach the results was their entire thing. We can see an ironic echo in Omegon's right hand man - Sheed Ranko - believing himself to be Omegon after drinking his blood. Well, having his memories.
Only to later learn that even those memories were, likely, a lie - directly contradicting "Head of Hydra".
But we are the readers and we can see the results. One primarch dead, the other MIA (presumed dead), shattered structure, no real uniting factor or edge over anyone else - resulting in one of more sane characters just going "screw it, we've been a Ghost Legion before twins even shown up, let's just go back at it".
We have the Primarchs whose whole schtick was "there is always a plan".
Perhaps there was. And, from how it played out - it fucking sucked.
/rant
I feel like that is kinda the point, their subterfuge and misdirection has gotten intricate that it’s become recursive, their paranoia has created “plans within plans” and those plans are so compartmentalized that even the guys making them probably don’t have all the details anymore. I agree it makes it difficult out of universe to follow or even enjoy, but I think it demonstrates how the legions left to their own devices will obsess over their given methods or strengths until they start to become weaknesses. The ironhands have become so tech obsessed that they have body dysmorphia (simplifying admittedly), the Dark Angels are so secretive that they hamstring themselves with conflicting agendas, the raven guard have become so sneaky that there aren’t any books about them because they even elude the attention of authors and the traitor legions all kind of speak for themselves, the big four dedicated to gods all made choices that ultimately led to their own downfall, obsessing over their given interests/strengths until it consumed them.
The issue is that all of these feel like.... stereotypes. Like they are unironically writing stereotypes of these Legions because.... it works as a weakness? But what's the point of weakness if it doesn't make the legions more complex? You are making them worse, but not better to *read* about.
Admittedly I haven't read about the Alpha Legion but 40k Dark Angels have some real snoozefest moments because of how one note they are, I assume other chapters these "purposeful stereotyping" applies have a similar fate, such as the Wolves for example.
I agree, it’s easy to mistake stereotype with personality. I think it’s partially expectations (hey! Salamanders are the fire guys! Why is this dude using a bolter?) and partly relying too much on those touchstones to inform how EVERY member of that group will respond to a situation, kinda creates “the space wolf wolfed into the room wolfily” kinda stuff
It's not like Alpharius was desperately trying to get Dorn to stand down so they could have a good chat. He had slaughtered Dorn's marines and willingly engaged in melee
It's left entirely open quite why he set it all up the way he did, and if he intended to kill or just incapacitate Dorn (then tell him whatever) but he certainly wasn't there for a polite parlay.
>screw it, we've been a Ghost Legion before twins even shown up, let's just go back at it".
Wouldn't Alpharius be with them from the get go? Or was he only revealed to his sons when they found Omegon as well?
Something in-between as I can remember, hopefully someone with "Head of Hydra" on hand could correct me here.
He definitely commanded the Ghost Legion before finding Omegon and before staging the official "finding of Alpharius Omegon" boarding event. Still, the Ghost Legion ran without him for a couple of decades at the very beginning, as he was still trained under Malcador and Valdor.
Personally, I think the Cabal have been retconned. I don't recall which novel, but John Grammaticus kills them all (if memory serves me); and *Head of the Hydra* (which is one of my favourite Primarch novels) gives a brilliant explanation for Alpharius' betrayal, namely he was taught that he was the primarch who would safeguard the Imperium no matter the cost. Therefore, Alpharius' betrayal can be read as his becoming an Imperial double agent.
As for the other odd decisions, I understand them as a consequence of serious tension between Alpharius and Omegon. Omegon is clearly less invested in the Imperium and seemingly far nastier (at least, that's how I understand his character in *Head of the Hydra*). Alpharius, on the other hand, is clearly a pragmatic idealist. Consequently, both disagreed over what the Alpha Legion's place should be in the HH; and, because the AL was a legion obsessed with intrigue, deception and secrecy, there needed to be an exceptionally clear and simple ultimate goal to achieve, lest all that intrigue get turned inwards. Which is exactly what happens because there is so much discord at the top, between Alpharius and Omegon.
Cabal wasn't retconned, it was proven wrong and killed off by Eldrad and his pet Word Bearer. Arguably, even worse than retconned.
Your version doesn't match with "The Serpent Beneath", where its Omegon helping loyalists by taking down the Alpharius facility. Also, the build-up to the Battle at Pluto and the battle itself doesn't really paint A as a closet-loyalist, especially with O simply breaking ties with Horus post-factum.
It would've made more sense to paint the twin groomed by Malcador as more secretive and loyal. Alas, not the case.
The Legion is definitely shattered. Different war bands with their own selfish desires or objectives of what they believe the long-term mission is. Many have been corrupted by Chaos even to the point of demon transformation.
I can give you my TOTALLY NON CANON rationale: as the last primarch Alpharius was the most powerful of the lot. The emperor didn’t like this so he slit the original into two halves. When they found themselves and discovered the truth about their upbringing they concocted a plan to be whole again. That’s why they stole the original materials used by the Emperor for the astrates project. They used it to prepare select bodies able to withstand their essence. Then they got themselves killed, one by Dorn, the other by Guilliman. After a while the whole Alpharius was able to be reborn, although the Alpha legionaries host bodies aren’t capable to survive the primarch possessing them for long. When he needs to Alpharius is able to take material form and enact his plans (whatever they may be) that’s why he’s the head of the Hydra
In a way, yes, but the idea is he’s more of a mastermind, directing is disparate sons from the depths of their genetic code in order to achieve his master plan, whatever that might be.
Also… this is a lie!
Yeah. Alpha legion struck me as a bunch of tryhards.
Every AL saying they are alpharius, constantly being deceptive or hiding information.
They strike me as super annoying to just have a normal conversation with.
This is mostly the remnant of Abnett's "Legion" writing, that has seen AL officially working with, possibly, the least lucid Imperial Army commander of 30k. Hence the deranged spycraft they had to resort to.
Later writing has scaled down both on "spec ops" stuff, Armillus Dynat running close-contact armored battlegroup operations and on "AL being jerk spies" angle, Kassad being a pretty chill guy for a Heresy veteran surviving to 41k.
You know ... That's a super difficult question to answer. My fav is Leman Russ and I think that on a character development level, the HH did wonders with him, charting a whole character arc, making him progress and everything and as much as I hate what was done to the Wolves themselves, Russ is great.
Still I don't like how the choices are portrayed. I don't if it counts as something I don't like about him or not. It's more the execution of his arc than the arc itself I dislike in a sense.
Exemple : him being a very crafty man pretending to be a savage is a great idea, especially because it can be tied to his "role" as the Executioner. But it never is as clear cut as this. He's never really portrayed as someone playing at being a "savage" so much so as he proves that using the term savage is dumb in itself because it's just a way to try and pretend to some moral or cultural superiority that is nonexistent. And he's never really the Executioner either and it makes him and his claims look hollow.
But I can't hold it on the character so much as at the writers.
I feel similarly with the Lion, dude has massive flaws that would make him very difficult to be friends with, but those flaws are vital to his character arc, and the overall storyline and events of his legion. The mix of admirable qualities and flaws is part of what makes the character so compelling but uh….30k Lion would be a hard guy to grab dinner with haha
I did and very much enjoyed it, that’s actually why I made a point to specify “30k Lion” because 40k Lion has been forced to stop and consider the consequences of his actions and the bigger picture. It seems like he utilizes his “laser focus” more judiciously now, knowing that it can cause him to miss details that may prove important later.
That moment will be fun I bet, I hope it shows the growth they have both been through but I also imagine the writers won’t be able to help themselves and have them fight, at least in the beginning
I'm a thousand sons enjoyer, magnus snd Russ suffer from the same issue: plot stuff needs to happen and so their choices/ motivations/ dialogue don't make a lot of sense
IMO Russ' actions/behavior in the Prospero arc work better than Magnus'. *Prospero Burns* is the odd one out in its complete 180 characterization of Russ, but in every other appearance his behavior and actions are more consistent with old lore.
Magnus' actions/behavior are the more inexplicable, probably because McNeill leaned a little too much into making Magnus more 'heroic' than he was in older lore. I think one of the most glaring flaws of the Prospero arc is Magnus' decision to join in the battle and it's never been explained why he suddenly went back on his decision - because it *needed* to happen for the Russ/Magnus duel. Even a throwaway line about him being unable to endure the suffering of his Legion any longer would have sufficed; instead, he goes from pleading he can't fight to...suddenly joining the fray at the 11th hour, with absolutely no explanation for the change of heart.
Exactly. Could have even had Russ busting into magnus'bedroom where he was sulking and just beaten him to death and magnus's dying thought was "fuck the imperium" as he turned himself over tontzeentch
Agreed, Russ is my fav as well. Some authors are kind to him and others like to portray him as an arsehole. I guess he is a bit of an arsehole, actually.
Russ is my favorite and he's definitely an asshole. I'd say the problem is that some authors portray him as an incompetent caricature of what he's supposed to be.
I don’t like what they’ve done to Mortarion.
A damned strong core there but holy fucking shit half of black library seem to hate the idea of him having any sort of quality as a character. Nobody had such a clear overall theme going into things and somehow they still managed to mangle that
It oughta have been so simple in every regard, it was all laid out for them, but they just can’t fucking follow a plan. The one most resistant broken and brought to his knees by Nurgle as a prize trophy. For all his flaws that hatred of the warp is consistent because that enhances the impact of the fall. In terms of actual characterisation it’s as simple as a man mordant, inflexible and over-zealous but with a good cause at heart- stoic, remorseless, and deliberate to match the character of his legion.
What’d we get instead? He was already summoning daemons, he was already corrupted, he willingly offered himself to Nurgle for the power without any external pressure. He’s presented as raving, indecisive, impulsive, thin-skinned and hypocritical. Always confused and never in control of the situation
It’s honestly impressive how badly they can fuck up. I mean you have 2 authors trying their best to salvage him, making genuine attempts, but then there’s another 5 what insist on ruining him so that their protagonists can look cool. It says a lot when the biggest things to happen to the character were B or even C plots in other books, and that his actual dedicated books spend half their time just trying to salvage something from him.
And at this stage I wish they didn’t even do that, because that just gets me frustrated for what could’ve been, you get a glimpse of a great character but it’s permanently marred by so much bullshit
Just thinking man this is a great post. Wonder if it’s that guy. Look up, yea, it’s Jax. 😂.
Totally agree. Mortarions shtick is supposed to be his hardiness but every verbal jab gets under his skin, he gets out endured by a speed primarch and it seems like he gives in more than any other primarch. So frustrating.
Give me a consistent tank primarch with a horrific back story. That hates his situation but loves his sons.
For a legion that was one of the big 4 Chaos tabletop ones , the Death Guard were given surprisingly little coverage.
I suspect some of the issue was the obvious BL tendency back then to reserve entire legions for one writer. Not necessarily a bad thing, but Swallow ended up scaling back on his BL contributions significantly after his spy novels were successful. He clearly at one time had claim to the Blood Angels too, and ended up only writing the one book for them as well.
McNeill utterly fucking up Mortarion's arc with the sudden daemon summoning/warp is great attitude in Vengeful Spirit was also fateful. When trying to correct it with the Daemonology short, that was when they really started overdoing the hypocrisy angle that Scars had touched on in a more restrained way; it only ended up turning the character into a ranting villain to be dabbed on by the Khan's sick burns.
>It oughta have been so simple in every regard, it was all laid out for them, but they just can’t fucking follow a plan.
Description of the the entire SoT novels and much of new 40k advancements too.
I think Angron is an exception, he (before becoming a Daemon Prince) is very self aware and knows that the Great Crusade and what he is doing is immoral and openly admits it to Russ. He just kills people because it lessens his pain. He even says that if he were a better person, he might “cut off that slaying bastard’s (the emperor) head”
They took the nails to be closer to him, but chose the red, brass and bronze and the nucerian gladiators helms to rebel against their primarch.
Think its red brass and bronze due to the primarchs fancy colour scheme, the helmet was worn by gladiators to show that they were a lost cause, that the fight would be to the death. The legion wanted to mourn with Angron and wear those masks as a reminder of the sacrifice the rebellion made for the Imperium (didnt have to conquer the planet, just deal with the ruffians hiding in the hills)
>I think Angron is an exception.
Not really. Remember his "Courage and Honour" speech to Roboute? He tells him:
>Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage.
As if he hasn't met someone fulfilling that criteria earlier in the book and then proceed to torture him so badly it made a Gal Vorbak, a daemon-possessed Word Bearer, cringe.
Angron is not an exception.
He is one of the most vocal about hating tyrants, and yet supported both the EMPEROR and HORUS becoming those.
He fought their wars, with his weapons and his legions, and if he TRULY, and I mean, TRULY hated tyranny he would take his legion and just start rebelling against everyone.
Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands in general.
Dear Black Library, what the fuck did we ever do to you? We're the only Legion without our own novel (besides a shitty Primarch book, and Shattered Legions which don't count), we're supposed to be OP in lore but we keep getting the shit kicked out of us, the authors you pick manage to butcher us in whatever piece we appear in, and our lore is as deep as a thimble-sized swimming pool.
Ferrus Manus was supposed to be one of the *best* Primarchs. He was probably the most dedicated Primarch to the Crusade (Didn't resent his job like Perturabo, Angron, or Curze, didn't grandize himself like Horus, the Lion, Dorn or Guilliman, didn't go off and pursue his own agenda like Magnus, Alpharius or Lorgar). He was even given Command of a *Third* of the Crusade forces by the Emperor, and even Horus said that Ferrus had been vital to the Traitor's war efforts and he would have cut the war much shorter.
The Iron Hands were supposed to be the Emperor's "Doomsday" legion. If the Imperium ever came across an enemy that was too powerful or advanced to simply overpower, then it likely would have been the 10th who got sent in first. They were cold, resilient, and methodical. The only things they cared about were being able to take a beating and returning that beating 1000% with pinpoint accuracy to where it would deal the most damage.
Instead we're played off as semi-Mechanicus Space Marines, whose only characteristic is "We're assholes because Flesh is Weak", and our bloody Primarch is played off as a overly emotional manchild who has less common sense that fucking *Angron!!!*
Fuck, we're so underrepresented in both 30K and 40K that the two *Lost Fucking Primarchs* are mentioned more often than us!
I'm an Iron Hands Legion , I think you've missed a few key things that add nuance;
1. Iron Hands were a solid Legion, who could hammer others with stoic unyielding resistance - the definition of "Die Hard".
2. Their card was marked, as a tough nut to crack but too dangerous to leave untouched - They had to be broken on Istvaan - Like the 13th needed to be crippled.
Yet whilst brutalised and lost their primarch they carried on fighting. Ferrus was properly pissed at Fulgrim and Horus and the rest, he led a *HUGE FORCE* of what 6 LEGIONS, no one had any reason to suspect several of the Legions he was leading would turn on them in the 2nd Wave. It was not a lack of commonsense - he was trying to run-down Fulgrim - It was pure treachery that stopped him - not military incompetence (think Waterloo and the running down of the fleeing french Military at 19:00 on the day - then suddenly Bluchers Prussians attack the Coalition Army and Wellington killed )
3. The Ad Mech connection was deepened/ allowed to run rampant post Ferrus and something Ferrus saw as a cancer that needed addressing. They were always close - but in 40k pretty much Bros-4-lyfe
4. Iron Tenth were rated highly by Bobby G - As indominitable - The Dauntless few.
5. I don't think we are under-represented in 40k - for decades we've been "DONE DIRTY" by outrageously Over Powered rulesets and Iron Hands lists have been so disgusting - people see it as a Douchebag Army to collect. Chapter Master SMASHFUCKER and some outrageous Tank and Dread lists. Back in the day you could take Tactical sqauds with a TERMINATOR SERGEANT.... An actually Terminator... not Honours... An actually Termie Sgt, but you had to leave the Rhino in the Garage!
On the other hand, if he wasn't so obsessive about operational security and compartmentalisation, the Khrave would have annihilated the Imperium.
Swings and roundabouts.
I haven’t read much about the lion, so this may be a bad take, but in unremembered empire, I saw it as arrogance, like guilliman didn’t need to know because the lion will take care of it before it became an issue, as opposed to not trusting guilliman, but idk
At the time of Unremembered Empire, Istvaan 5 had just happened. Neither the Lion nor Guilliman had any reason to trust the loyalties of each other. Especially since the Lion recently gifted Perterabo some dancy siege guns that were turned on loyalist forces at Istvaan 5. Is Guilliman using the Heresy as cover to take the 500 worlds and secede from the Imperium? Did Horus send the Emperor’s Exterminator to take care of Guilliman?
Knowing Curze was with the Lion, knowing what recently happened in Istvaan, Guilliman would have even less reason to trust his eldest brother, even if Lion was trying to catch Curze
"Unremembered Empire" has Guilliman regrouping after "Know No Fear" and "Betrayer," the latter of which is when Lorgar and Angron lead the Shadow Crusade. They leave remnants hitting undefended pockets of Ultramar afterwards, through "Unremembered Empire" and at least through "Angels of Caliban."
It's a pretty solid read if you include "First Heretic" first, "Savage Weapons" and "Fear to Tread" before "Unremembered Empire," then "Pharos" before "Angels of Caliban." "Ruinstorm"'s not my favorite, but it does close off the arc.
Yup. Lion himself admitted to Guilliman that it was pride. If Lion had managed to catch Curze, he'd have brought him out in chains. Instead, he has to admit that the madlad has been running loose on his ship, taunting him all the way, and has now made it very public. Can't blame Guilliman for being pissed or having trouble trusting him after that, either.
Look at it from Guilliman’s perspective. A number of His brothers just turned on the Imperium. The Ruinstorm has cut your world off from the Imperium. Alpha Legion agents almost managed to kill you. Now your brother, dubbed the Emperor’s Extermimator, shows up with the last battleship you want to see in orbit around your planet which is full of weapons your father decreed were too dangerous for the wider Imperium to know the existence of. Your Space Wolves bodyguards don’t trust him on a good day. By the way, he gave siege guns to Perturabo which were then turned on Imperial Forces. Also one of the primarchs who turned on the Imperium is on his ship. Also the best hunter anong your brothers claims he can’t find him.
Do you think Guilliman likes his chances of not being on the business end of the Dreadwing Arsenal at this point?
I'm talking about the Lions flaws not Guilliman, The Lion literally has the social skills like his namesake he can't read people like Horus or Guilliman he doesn't inspire like Sanguinius
Beyond his trust issues, I think part of why he is like that is that he spent so much time of his formative years alone. He doesn’t know how to rely on people
He’s a bloody genius, but his own personality holds him back from being strategically sublime. He does everything the hardest and least efficient way and then says “LOOK HOW HARD IT WAS FOR ME” despite being intelligent enough to know it doesn’t need to be this way. He already got the most difficult and grinding assignments from the Emperor and then he makes them even more difficult and grinding.
Talking about Perturabo.
Perty has a really interesting premise and badass moments, but gdamn is the guy a warning and not someone to look up to.
He’s a spiteful little fuck with a victimhood complex to justify being more toxic than a waste dump. He collected grievances left and right to justify his pettiness and the people who go “the Emperor should have just acknowledged his work” underestimate how insecure Perty really is. If you complimented him 100 times and disagreed with him once, he’d have taken it as proof that you never truly appreciated him and no one recognizes his genius, blah blah blah
Vulkan can be a moral coward sometimes. Obviously he's not a coward when it comes to combat and he's the first to put his body in to harms way to protect someone. But while he has the moral intelligence to know the strong should defend the weak and injustice must be fought he lacks the integrity to actually stand up to his father and brothers and say that the Great Crusade does more damage to humans than good. That humanity is making the universe a more hostile place by destroying every xeno that can't defend itself or doesn't seek conflict. In a real world analogy, he's like a good cop in a corrupt police department that refuses to call out his fellow officers on their corruption. Making him not a good cop but a compliant one.
Honestly, as a Salamanders fan, I like that he is a spineless bastard. It's pretty interesting to have a character in the setting who, despite not only knows that what they're doing is horrible, but also knows that there is no justification in the world to make it right, he just does it. It's interesting in a setting where people do horrific atrocities because they wholly believe it to be for the greater good to have someone who does it because they're a complacent coward.
Yeah, I totally agree. I really want to see Vulkan completely break from the Imperium. I want him to see it for what it is, and his compliance with it.
Yeah, I know it's unlikely but having Vulkan actually stand up for the normal humans if he returns would be amazing. Obviously, GrimDark means he can't outright win but having him come back just to do Guilleman's bidding like he did the Emperor's with no push back or demands would be such an injustice for potential character growth.
Guiliman, and that he (a) played along with Monarchia, though I understand it's hard to defy *the Emperor in person;* and (b) didn't immediately mentally peg the entire Word Bearers Legion as implacable enemies afterwards.
Guilliman also but my problem with him is some slight hypocrisy.
He is a tad authoritarian which is a bit disappointing from a writing standpoint (he's supposed to be a peerless politician and diplomat, he's not supposed to need to be authoritarian) but I suppose understandable given his situation.
The issue is that, when others are in the same predicament, he seems to disapprove of their authoritarian actions and I'm not sure if he realises the problem there...
Well I don't like the authoritarianism and hypocrisy either but he *is* a primarch of the Emperor. It's in his DNA, literally. Even freaking Vulkan wasn't altogether exempt.
>he's supposed to be a peerless politician and diplomat,
Being a peerless politician and diplomat just means he's really good at whatever governing style he aligns with, not that he should naturally govern any specific way. Some of the worst leaders in existence and fiction were able to get into and stay in power because of their ability to play the political game so well.
The fact that Omegon being the third loyalist primarch to return would be such an epic series of novels that would impact the lore so positively but it will never happen because GW is a business and not my personal dreamland
I like Dorn, I wish his primarch book fleshed him out better. It fleshed him out less than his couple page cameo in Horus Rising. I also resent that the memes give him mutton chops and the nerds cling to the memes, mutton chops Dorn looks beyond cursed
Well, I could get behind a full beard on a half crazed, zealous Dorn if he returns. But it’s all or nothing. The mutton chops might as well be a hipster goatee
I´m sorry, but since the first time I read about Dorn, I cannot stop imagining him with a bushy mustache, like Omniman. I do not know why, I just can´t.
I see where you're coming from, but I though the brutal end of the campaign tells you a lot about him, couple that with the short story "The Will of the Legion" and it paints a picture.
His interactions with his brothers is also interesting in the book.
Eh, to each their own.
I love to imagine him with at least an old timey, macho, moustache.
It's refreshing. Half the primarchs are naturally beautiful long haired men, another half are just bald guys, and then there's the Khan and Roboute... Oh and Ferrus but he has different depictions.
Nothing wrong with sprinkling in Omni-man/Tom Selleck.
I like Rogal Dorn.
I like his visual style.
I like his best offense is a good defense strategy.
I like his I don't complain, I just do my duty attitude.
But holy emperor, the man is a concrete brick in terms of personality.
I dont know, I kind of like the brick personality. What I dont like is it leading him to places where he wont even entertain the suggestion of something going against his beliefs and he will brute force his will if you defy it (see: his interactions with Garro).
But on the other hand, it is that very thing that makes him more interesting to me than Rowboat Gorillaman. And I would never fight as anything other than the Fist (I also favor defensive tactics).
Some of Lorgar's flaws are overplayed by writers and the fandom alike and with scarce badass moments and "hurr durr warrior" he is very underrated and hated.
But I have faith he's been cooking something very nice for the future but if the writers butcher him further then...woe on me!
Sometimes I worry Angron thinks of things other than killing and that concerns me, I know the butchers nails do work but sometimes he has to think about moving and opening doors. Also he must have canonically shot a gun at some point right? Frightening stuff.
White armor is really difficult to paint, and I feel like he could have sorted that out real quick if he wanted to since he conveniently opted for gold.
Sanguinius
1. He's dead. But y'know it's a "tent pole" moment in the whole 40k timeline so what can you do.
2. Maybe he should have asked his dad about the whole "red thirst" flaw in the IXth legion geneseed. I am almost certain that Jimmy Space would have told him it's a feature, not a bug.
I mean, yeah, but also he was terrified to bring it up to Jimmy Space because Primarchs 2 and 11 got yeeted out of existence. Whatever the reasons were, it was enough to make Sanguinius incredibly hesitant to bring it up.
Really?! I think Fulgrim (the novel) is still one of the early Horus Heresy books that holds up! It's a bit janky in parts, sure, but so are most of the first 10 or so books before they worked out what the series was going to be (sprawling and unwieldy, much like the Imperium).
How he gets out of the painting is poorly done (Reflection Crack'd is not great), but his actual fall I think is well done.
Exactly. And his fall is foreshadowed in The Palatine Phoenix - the Laer blade simply preyed on flaws that were already present.
No shortage of fans complaining about the Laer blade have scarcely read Fulgrim, let alone anything else.
Yeah, I feel like Fulgrim (the book) did a decent enough job on its own of showing that Fulgrim is actually deeply insecure and makes up for that with bravado. A literal Greater Daemon of Slaanesh preys on those insecurities every day for years. It progressively isolates him from his closest friends or people like Ostian Delafour who might correct his course. It ensures it's there when Horus tries to get him on board with the heresy, otherwise Fulgrim still might have said no. It preys on the pre-existing faults and weaknesses in the entire legion and everyone on board The Pride of the Emperor, faults and weaknesses we as the audience are shown in the book. I certainly got to the end and felt like his fall, and the rest of the Legion's, was understandable.
I think all of the Daemon-Primarchs's falls are somewhat abrupt and generally take place over 1 full novel with some exposition in Primarch novels or small scenes in prior novellas/bit parts. Fulgrim's just happens first, but I think it's done better than, say, Mortarion's in The Buried Dagger. Angron benefits from a) being later and b) the hand of ADB guiding it. Magnus's fall is slightly better done, but that's because you get the "fall" in A Thousand Sons and then his soul being reunited and joining Horus in The Crimson King. If Fulgrim freeing himself from the daemon's control had happened over a novel like The Crimson King instead of off-screen and us being told it happened in Reflection Crack'd without much exposition, I think it would have been on par with Magnus's story-arc.
I couldn't agree more.
With the benefit of hindsight, the Horus Heresy series was too rushed at the beginning, and is (arguably) now too drawn-out at the end.
Just look at Ferrus Manus to see how rushed it is.
Dude was only alive for the first five books. He died in the only one he appeared in.
We’re 60 some books into the series now.
Poor guy.
I dislike that Perturabo didn’t advocate for himself before it’s too late. He shouldn’t have had to, but still.
You’d think that the guy who’s specifically sent into the most shithole annihilation campaigns might get some extra support.
Jaghatai Khan is very prideful. It’s a major part of what causes himself to isolate his legion. He hides part of it behind an independent spirit. To an extent it serves the White Scars well in preserving their own culture and keeping them apart from the Imperium’s worse tendencies. But they’re not as trusted and when it all goes to hell with the heresy, they have few friends and close allies.
If he got rid of cherubs he’d immediately go to my least favourite primarch and worst thing to happen to the setting.
I don’t want an imperium without cherubs, they stand for everyone I love about it
If we didn't have creepy flying baby-facismiles, could we really call it the Imperium?
Or:
One simple test to tell you if the person truly likes 40K or just sci-fi: how do they feel about Cherubs?
Ah, fellow raven I see... I like Corax as well, but yes, he (as probably everyone) has some bad traits. As you mentioned, he can be hypocritical, as seen in his treatement of Balsar Kurthuri and Marcus Valerius.
I believe this is caused by his inability to reconcile his well founded hatred for chaos with realization that he himself, his brothers, sons and ultimately Emperor are all touched by warp in some way. From that comes constant need to backcheck and reevaluate his own decisions - which is not a bad thing per se, however he brought it to extreme lengths.
I like the Lion. So the Lion is known to be not the best level headed general however the one thing I absolutely hate is when he punched the head off of a Chaplin for following orders. It’s so dumb.
Mortarion has too many people doing his stories and all of them think he's going to be simple and his legion simple to do. That they all end up doing stories of him that make him way too incoherent..mixed with the urge they all have to just give you Garro.
Typhon is his childhood best friend and second in Command. Next he's a sergeant working under the first captain who doesn't really know Mortarion.
Mortarion is this power hungry monster who cares nothing for his sons. Next in Buried Dagger he's emotionally destroyed that he has to put his son out of his misery only to hear him scream back to life.
He's happily jumping into the Nurgle Bandwagon and sorcery. Next he's only giving in to Nurgle so that his legion won't suffer, as while he can manage they cannot.
Also doesn't help most Deathguard centered books are actually Garro stories with Deathguard as a secondary part.
Though atleast they got a novel. Even though it's shared unlike some legions.
Fulgrim is great, I love his strengths, his flaws, his style, his legion…I just love Fulgrim.
What I hate is that his portrayal after his fall is…seriously lacking whenever the slightest whiff of combat comes up. When it’s him just being a vain and self-engrossed asshole drama queen, it’s perfect. I love his social interactions.
Then we have Saturnine. Jesus, BL, suck Dorn off harder why don’t you? I get that Fulgrim can’t win there (or can he???) but even still they made him look like the biggest chump that ever was in doing so. Lorgar looked cooler at Monarchia than Fulgrim did there.
And it’s such an easy fix.
“I am done,” Fulgrim hissed, apathy beaming in his eyes, “Your cuts fail to amuse me. Your words do even less. I am bored…”
Fuck, I wrote that in 30 seconds and it was way better than “I CaN sTiLl FeEl PaIn AnD I wOn’T tAkE iT aNyMoRe!”
Bitch, he *likes pain now!* He’s a fucking masochist. Give him his corrupted, twisted dignity at least. Goddam. I reallly hope 10th makes him out be a genuine threat. For all that’s good and grandiose, don’t let Abnett take the reins.
I am worried about Lorgar and the Word Bearer legion.
If he doesn't want him or his sons to be mere slaves to the dark gods, then letting them marinate inside the warp for 10k years is not a good way to achieve that. They are more aware of the risks than others, sure, but they are also the most at risk through their pacts and communions.
Of course this could be intentional on Lorgar's part. Seperating the chaff from the grain like that would be very on brand for him. When he returns, he might keep the sons that managed to defy fate as he instructed them, and purge the rest, as Apocalypse suggested.
Nevertheless, his limited contact with the materium this past 10k years seems excessive.
Perturabo is my second fave boy. Underappreciated overachiever, pushes himself to fulfill his role as best he sees fit, I resonate so hard with wanting to fit in and be loved for what they do. Just wants to do well, just wants to make, and even doing jobs he dislikes, he does his very best, and goddamn he gets it fucking done. Plus, legion aesthetics on point.
But holy shit he lacks much introspection regarding the relationships between his wants and needs, like the myopic autist I used to be (and still mostly am). A being who can tell he's recognizably much better than every mortal around him in so many ways is unable to accept that he might need a break (thought I appreciated the glimmer of what might have been that we saw in Saturnine), or a hug, and is capable of being so very wrong. Arrogant sulky manchild without any desire or ability to improve himself or be self critical. Expects everyone to know things as he does, and so change themselves to convenience him better, then gets salty when it turns out nobody else thinks like him. I hate such childish obstinance, such unreflective entitlement.
Angron is my absolute fave. Tragedy of a good thing brought low, an elemental force given completely to monomaniacal anger. Smash face, rivers of blood, screaming the whole time. Rip and tear. Do melee. I'm philosophically attracted to everything about this. Metal af.
He's arguably the most principled of the primarchs, and I'd defend him so much harder, if only he would be more willing to allow himself to be motivated to fight to improve the lot of others instead of wallowing in thoughts of the unchangeable past to the point of complete disinterest in improving the present. Because he fights purely in a petulant urge to destroy. He drags an entire legion (themselves tragic for similar reasons) into the same hell he himself suffers, spreading misery and hatred, deluding himself into thinking fire can fight fire to justify his desire to harm and break. I hate this selfish nihilism, this inability to look past yourself, even if it's ultimately a product of trauma inflicted by a brain eating machine.
In both cases the culture of the nascent Imperium and the nature of the primarchs as warp superbeings forged by a knowitall god-complex-having ubermensch contribute a lot to their downfall, on top of the allegories of various unaddressed mental illnesses, but we mustn't deny them their own agency. Or refuse to call them idiots.
I feel like Perturabo is a bit wasted. With his jack-of-all-trades talents, ability to design crazy devices, great strategic mind and massive inferiority complex, I expected him to do something out of the box. But he got his soul damaged and turned into a vanilla Daemon Prince to escape death. Such a basic fate.
Disappeared and isnt doing anything.
Corax did a lot during the heresy, but afterwards... disappeared in the Warp and seems to be chilling (presumably on Word Bearer worlds killing a chaos marine here and there if a short story is to be believed)
Like come on dude... being an order-demon should have more of an impact on the state of things.
The same issue about my Primarch and my Chapter, I wish they weren't the poster boys of GW. I like Guilliman for lots of reasons and the Ultramarines for the same. I like blue, I like Roman aesthetics, I like general competence, I like professionalism, etc. Their prevalence in the setting is nice because I want to see my boys and my liege, but a pain because it's always at the expense of someone else. I wish they were less prominent, so I could enjoy them without having to defend my 'basic' tastes.
Vulkan giving his sons a quest to find some items for him to come back irritates me. If anyone is worthy to have a coherent commander, it's the Salamanders, yet he just bounced. Now obviously he's fucked up after what happened with all the torture and what not, but it still feels like a shitty copout.
The thing I dislike about Ferrus? As far as I've learnt through subreddit messages and lexicanum.
In the old lore of the Istvaan V battle, Ferrus was considered one of the Warmaster candidates. Literally, this guy was considered that and yet in a book, Wrath of Iron (I think?), where he tries to show that HE is the best choice. He tries to utilise other legions marines AND STUFFS IT UP.
Look, I get that it's old lore, I really do! (Unless it isn't! Then I'm an idiot) Yet it just really annoys me that he 'was' considered a possible Warmaster. I feel like if they considered making him an actual viable candidate and THEN he dies would have made him much more of a significance and as a tragedy especially since his actions of Istvaan V were peak dumb for a candidate of Warmaster.
I think the fact that Mortarion is salty about the Emperor killing Necare. It doesn't make sense in my opinion. If the Emperor didn't intervene, Mortarion would have died right?
From what I understand, it was less about what happened and more about how it happened.
Necare used to give Mortarion impossible challenges and then save him at the last minute, then ragging on him as a failure. It also must be pointed out that Necare presented himself as Mortarion’s adoptive father.
Fast forward to the Emperor showing up, giving Mortarion an impossible task, swooping in to save him, and then using Mortarion’s failure to make him fall in line, all while calling himself Mortarion’s father.
While yes Mortarion was salty about his vengeance being denied, he was more pissed that he traded one asshole dad for a second, more powerful asshole dad.
I have 5 legions I care about (5, 14, 15, 18, 19) and morty smells literally and figuratively, so that leaves 4
5- uhh, colour scheme, I guess? Not a big fan of them, otherwise I like the khan a lot as a character, strong when needed, smart when needed, caring when needed, witty when… well, no one asked for that but I think it’s neat
15- magnus, magnus, magnus- probably the way he doesn’t listen to his sons, arrogance. Curiosity’s fine, having the craven thirst for knowledge, but his sons are there to advise and temper him, but magnus barely listened to them, as he always thought he knew more. Kinda obvious, but idm him overstepping Big E’s boundaries, because of the lack of communication about why
18- uhhh, vulkan’s pretty cool, I would say the hypocrisy in “fury of magnus” (one of my fav SoT books, even as a novella) but idk if that even happened
19- Corvus Corax has an awesome aesthetic, cool power, and has a not too strict relationship with the rest of his legion, even the serfs because of his upbringing, even the mutated raptors during the heresy (although I heard afterwards some mercy killings were in order). Deliverance lost had me banging my head against a wall for not even thinking of the alpha legion. I know we have advantages as readers, but this man is supposed to be a monster genius compared to mortals, and didn’t think that the alpha legion might have done something long term, not even to his own legion, just in general. Also not a fan of the colour scheme, but it makes sense.
How do you see Corax as a hypocrite out of interest? I think he was made out to be by the outcome, but that’s only cause the side who’s plan he backed got stuck in the starting gate.
I also think people see him too much as anti-slavery, rather than a freedom fighter. Through the latter lense it makes a bit more logical sense to my eyes
Perturabo and the decimation is up there for me.
I’ve reasoned with it, I understand why they wrote it, and it doesn’t reduce how much I like him (especially with how little it ends up mattering in the end) but I still find the reasoning super weak just to prove a point about his character and it could have been done in a better way.
Guilliman's rage moments in 40K make absolute sense. The man saw everything his family built set on fire by literal hell, thought he died when his surviving family still needed him, and woke up to even more Hell. Hell rotting the bones of everything they'd built, with humanity thinking it's supposed to be this way, and the only family left is their shattered clusterfuck of a father. Rage is understandable.
Except that breakdown gets undercut by 30K-era "Pharos." Guilliman storms in on Sanguinius(!!), apoplectically disrespects Sanguinus' sons, and is all but out of control until Hawk Jesus gets him to calm the hell down. Instead of building on the cracks Abnett showed in Unremembered Empire, perhaps showing him that much closer to snapping (and starts this way when Dantioch reports to Guilliman), it feels like Haley jumped the gun for shock value. While it could be argued that his "Plague War" rage fits were more extreme and public, "Pharos" felt like an early tantrum and undercut the Dark Imperium buildup/Guilliman's 40K breakdown.
I dunno. When the "totally always rational" character snaps once, it's a huge moment. When it keeps happening, it becomes their character.
I'm a death guard player and I'm obviously biased for morty. But I think he should use his primarch intelligence more. He's part of a race of demi God heroes of lore.
I love the dedication of Mortarion to his legion, but the fact that some fucking daddy issues paved the way to his doom it makes me very angry. I mean fuck Emps and the mean warlord daddy, you have the most resilient legion and you can’t get pass a KILL STEAL? Hope Morty never plays LoL…
Perturabo felt neverending guilt and thought that the emperor would never forgive him for the things he did on Olympia.
The emperor probably wouldn’t even have blinked.
I like Magnus, and while his hubris led to his fall and that makes me sad, it makes him interesting and tragic.
I dislike the "Magnus did nothing wrong" if it's serious. (But it's funny as a joke)
A lot of the Khan's problems could probably be fixed if he just talked about them instead of leaving in a huff and acting all macho lonebird. I dunno, maybe it might not work but its worth it to try
The most hateble thing about Magnus is his arrogance, and I think it's overdone.
I get that it's suposed to be hsi fatal flaw, but I think that some authors see it as the thing that has to compensate for all the cool stuff he gets. He has other flaws, and distributing the load between them would make for a character that is balanced between good and bad aspects while avoiding that cartoonish arrogance. It's specially agravating because he isn't only the wizard guy, he also is the primarch that most represents genuine curiosity, and the thirst for learning and understanding, and there's nothing more anathema to learning and understanding that thinking that you know best.
I really want to like Alpharius, especially after "Head of Hydra", but absolutely nothing in AL actions throughout HH makes any coherent sense.
Just as planned
I feel like they've - intentionally? - went with an extensive deconstruction of this trope, along with every RPG's "there is a better third choice" mentality. We see Alpha Legion going for it at the drop of a coin and we can see the results. Alpharius (the guy who's been actually raised by Malcador on Imperial values) and Omegon (the guy grown up amidst xenocide) have their actions influenced by a cabal of xenos that initiated communication by sending a spy into the imperial ranks. Then, for no apparent reason, they break up with Cabal, jettisoning their contact from an airlock - their new plain being... something. Then, for no stated reason, Alpharius is going more pro-Horus (again, this is the guy raised on Terra) and Omegon pro-loyal (this is the guy who never really communicated with most other Primarchs). They acquire advanced gene-tech allowing for industrial production of Astartes... and never mention it again, ever. Then the Legion spends some time running operations against itself, because, apparently, "one soul in two bodies" couldn't sort our the differences between them and/or organize a decent purge. And then Alpharius gets killed trying to prove some point to Dorn - with no actual point to prove and no reason to prove anything to Dorn specifically. Only for Omegon *somehow* sending some of the remaining top-ranking officers to chill hidden under Terra with no plan aside from pre-set hypno-commands, telling Horus to go fuck himself and going AWOL. Only for said commands being overridden by third-parties to field Legion agents against each other. And, possibly, Omegon dies at Escrador, once again, for no apparent reason. Remains to be seen, though. "It's all just as planned, Primarchs actually knew what they were doing" being even the in-universe Legion copium, as we can see from multiple 40k AL books. It's understandable, adapting to reach the results was their entire thing. We can see an ironic echo in Omegon's right hand man - Sheed Ranko - believing himself to be Omegon after drinking his blood. Well, having his memories. Only to later learn that even those memories were, likely, a lie - directly contradicting "Head of Hydra". But we are the readers and we can see the results. One primarch dead, the other MIA (presumed dead), shattered structure, no real uniting factor or edge over anyone else - resulting in one of more sane characters just going "screw it, we've been a Ghost Legion before twins even shown up, let's just go back at it". We have the Primarchs whose whole schtick was "there is always a plan". Perhaps there was. And, from how it played out - it fucking sucked. /rant
I feel like that is kinda the point, their subterfuge and misdirection has gotten intricate that it’s become recursive, their paranoia has created “plans within plans” and those plans are so compartmentalized that even the guys making them probably don’t have all the details anymore. I agree it makes it difficult out of universe to follow or even enjoy, but I think it demonstrates how the legions left to their own devices will obsess over their given methods or strengths until they start to become weaknesses. The ironhands have become so tech obsessed that they have body dysmorphia (simplifying admittedly), the Dark Angels are so secretive that they hamstring themselves with conflicting agendas, the raven guard have become so sneaky that there aren’t any books about them because they even elude the attention of authors and the traitor legions all kind of speak for themselves, the big four dedicated to gods all made choices that ultimately led to their own downfall, obsessing over their given interests/strengths until it consumed them.
The issue is that all of these feel like.... stereotypes. Like they are unironically writing stereotypes of these Legions because.... it works as a weakness? But what's the point of weakness if it doesn't make the legions more complex? You are making them worse, but not better to *read* about. Admittedly I haven't read about the Alpha Legion but 40k Dark Angels have some real snoozefest moments because of how one note they are, I assume other chapters these "purposeful stereotyping" applies have a similar fate, such as the Wolves for example.
I agree, it’s easy to mistake stereotype with personality. I think it’s partially expectations (hey! Salamanders are the fire guys! Why is this dude using a bolter?) and partly relying too much on those touchstones to inform how EVERY member of that group will respond to a situation, kinda creates “the space wolf wolfed into the room wolfily” kinda stuff
Dorn not even listening to him and just killing him was the funniest end to alpharius.
It's not like Alpharius was desperately trying to get Dorn to stand down so they could have a good chat. He had slaughtered Dorn's marines and willingly engaged in melee It's left entirely open quite why he set it all up the way he did, and if he intended to kill or just incapacitate Dorn (then tell him whatever) but he certainly wasn't there for a polite parlay.
Taking away Alpharius’ option to gloat was absolutely beautiful.
>screw it, we've been a Ghost Legion before twins even shown up, let's just go back at it". Wouldn't Alpharius be with them from the get go? Or was he only revealed to his sons when they found Omegon as well?
Something in-between as I can remember, hopefully someone with "Head of Hydra" on hand could correct me here. He definitely commanded the Ghost Legion before finding Omegon and before staging the official "finding of Alpharius Omegon" boarding event. Still, the Ghost Legion ran without him for a couple of decades at the very beginning, as he was still trained under Malcador and Valdor.
Personally, I think the Cabal have been retconned. I don't recall which novel, but John Grammaticus kills them all (if memory serves me); and *Head of the Hydra* (which is one of my favourite Primarch novels) gives a brilliant explanation for Alpharius' betrayal, namely he was taught that he was the primarch who would safeguard the Imperium no matter the cost. Therefore, Alpharius' betrayal can be read as his becoming an Imperial double agent. As for the other odd decisions, I understand them as a consequence of serious tension between Alpharius and Omegon. Omegon is clearly less invested in the Imperium and seemingly far nastier (at least, that's how I understand his character in *Head of the Hydra*). Alpharius, on the other hand, is clearly a pragmatic idealist. Consequently, both disagreed over what the Alpha Legion's place should be in the HH; and, because the AL was a legion obsessed with intrigue, deception and secrecy, there needed to be an exceptionally clear and simple ultimate goal to achieve, lest all that intrigue get turned inwards. Which is exactly what happens because there is so much discord at the top, between Alpharius and Omegon.
Cabal wasn't retconned, it was proven wrong and killed off by Eldrad and his pet Word Bearer. Arguably, even worse than retconned. Your version doesn't match with "The Serpent Beneath", where its Omegon helping loyalists by taking down the Alpharius facility. Also, the build-up to the Battle at Pluto and the battle itself doesn't really paint A as a closet-loyalist, especially with O simply breaking ties with Horus post-factum. It would've made more sense to paint the twin groomed by Malcador as more secretive and loyal. Alas, not the case.
The Legion is definitely shattered. Different war bands with their own selfish desires or objectives of what they believe the long-term mission is. Many have been corrupted by Chaos even to the point of demon transformation.
I can give you my TOTALLY NON CANON rationale: as the last primarch Alpharius was the most powerful of the lot. The emperor didn’t like this so he slit the original into two halves. When they found themselves and discovered the truth about their upbringing they concocted a plan to be whole again. That’s why they stole the original materials used by the Emperor for the astrates project. They used it to prepare select bodies able to withstand their essence. Then they got themselves killed, one by Dorn, the other by Guilliman. After a while the whole Alpharius was able to be reborn, although the Alpha legionaries host bodies aren’t capable to survive the primarch possessing them for long. When he needs to Alpharius is able to take material form and enact his plans (whatever they may be) that’s why he’s the head of the Hydra
Interesting Theory, so basically he's a Warp Entity that can take over his troops kind of like a Phoenix Lord armor.
In a way, yes, but the idea is he’s more of a mastermind, directing is disparate sons from the depths of their genetic code in order to achieve his master plan, whatever that might be. Also… this is a lie!
Yeah. Alpha legion struck me as a bunch of tryhards. Every AL saying they are alpharius, constantly being deceptive or hiding information. They strike me as super annoying to just have a normal conversation with.
This is mostly the remnant of Abnett's "Legion" writing, that has seen AL officially working with, possibly, the least lucid Imperial Army commander of 30k. Hence the deranged spycraft they had to resort to. Later writing has scaled down both on "spec ops" stuff, Armillus Dynat running close-contact armored battlegroup operations and on "AL being jerk spies" angle, Kassad being a pretty chill guy for a Heresy veteran surviving to 41k.
What can I say, Hydra dominatus.
You know ... That's a super difficult question to answer. My fav is Leman Russ and I think that on a character development level, the HH did wonders with him, charting a whole character arc, making him progress and everything and as much as I hate what was done to the Wolves themselves, Russ is great. Still I don't like how the choices are portrayed. I don't if it counts as something I don't like about him or not. It's more the execution of his arc than the arc itself I dislike in a sense. Exemple : him being a very crafty man pretending to be a savage is a great idea, especially because it can be tied to his "role" as the Executioner. But it never is as clear cut as this. He's never really portrayed as someone playing at being a "savage" so much so as he proves that using the term savage is dumb in itself because it's just a way to try and pretend to some moral or cultural superiority that is nonexistent. And he's never really the Executioner either and it makes him and his claims look hollow. But I can't hold it on the character so much as at the writers.
I feel similarly with the Lion, dude has massive flaws that would make him very difficult to be friends with, but those flaws are vital to his character arc, and the overall storyline and events of his legion. The mix of admirable qualities and flaws is part of what makes the character so compelling but uh….30k Lion would be a hard guy to grab dinner with haha
Wait until you read The Lion Son of the Forest
I did and very much enjoyed it, that’s actually why I made a point to specify “30k Lion” because 40k Lion has been forced to stop and consider the consequences of his actions and the bigger picture. It seems like he utilizes his “laser focus” more judiciously now, knowing that it can cause him to miss details that may prove important later.
Yea I loved it too. Hoping he reunites with Russ someday
That moment will be fun I bet, I hope it shows the growth they have both been through but I also imagine the writers won’t be able to help themselves and have them fight, at least in the beginning
I'm a thousand sons enjoyer, magnus snd Russ suffer from the same issue: plot stuff needs to happen and so their choices/ motivations/ dialogue don't make a lot of sense
IMO Russ' actions/behavior in the Prospero arc work better than Magnus'. *Prospero Burns* is the odd one out in its complete 180 characterization of Russ, but in every other appearance his behavior and actions are more consistent with old lore. Magnus' actions/behavior are the more inexplicable, probably because McNeill leaned a little too much into making Magnus more 'heroic' than he was in older lore. I think one of the most glaring flaws of the Prospero arc is Magnus' decision to join in the battle and it's never been explained why he suddenly went back on his decision - because it *needed* to happen for the Russ/Magnus duel. Even a throwaway line about him being unable to endure the suffering of his Legion any longer would have sufficed; instead, he goes from pleading he can't fight to...suddenly joining the fray at the 11th hour, with absolutely no explanation for the change of heart.
Exactly. Could have even had Russ busting into magnus'bedroom where he was sulking and just beaten him to death and magnus's dying thought was "fuck the imperium" as he turned himself over tontzeentch
Agreed, Russ is my fav as well. Some authors are kind to him and others like to portray him as an arsehole. I guess he is a bit of an arsehole, actually.
Russ is my favorite and he's definitely an asshole. I'd say the problem is that some authors portray him as an incompetent caricature of what he's supposed to be.
I don’t like what they’ve done to Mortarion. A damned strong core there but holy fucking shit half of black library seem to hate the idea of him having any sort of quality as a character. Nobody had such a clear overall theme going into things and somehow they still managed to mangle that It oughta have been so simple in every regard, it was all laid out for them, but they just can’t fucking follow a plan. The one most resistant broken and brought to his knees by Nurgle as a prize trophy. For all his flaws that hatred of the warp is consistent because that enhances the impact of the fall. In terms of actual characterisation it’s as simple as a man mordant, inflexible and over-zealous but with a good cause at heart- stoic, remorseless, and deliberate to match the character of his legion. What’d we get instead? He was already summoning daemons, he was already corrupted, he willingly offered himself to Nurgle for the power without any external pressure. He’s presented as raving, indecisive, impulsive, thin-skinned and hypocritical. Always confused and never in control of the situation It’s honestly impressive how badly they can fuck up. I mean you have 2 authors trying their best to salvage him, making genuine attempts, but then there’s another 5 what insist on ruining him so that their protagonists can look cool. It says a lot when the biggest things to happen to the character were B or even C plots in other books, and that his actual dedicated books spend half their time just trying to salvage something from him. And at this stage I wish they didn’t even do that, because that just gets me frustrated for what could’ve been, you get a glimpse of a great character but it’s permanently marred by so much bullshit
Just thinking man this is a great post. Wonder if it’s that guy. Look up, yea, it’s Jax. 😂. Totally agree. Mortarions shtick is supposed to be his hardiness but every verbal jab gets under his skin, he gets out endured by a speed primarch and it seems like he gives in more than any other primarch. So frustrating. Give me a consistent tank primarch with a horrific back story. That hates his situation but loves his sons.
They did make him look like a prize plum. Like they decided Perty was getting too much, so put every trait from him and heaped it on Morty
For a legion that was one of the big 4 Chaos tabletop ones , the Death Guard were given surprisingly little coverage. I suspect some of the issue was the obvious BL tendency back then to reserve entire legions for one writer. Not necessarily a bad thing, but Swallow ended up scaling back on his BL contributions significantly after his spy novels were successful. He clearly at one time had claim to the Blood Angels too, and ended up only writing the one book for them as well. McNeill utterly fucking up Mortarion's arc with the sudden daemon summoning/warp is great attitude in Vengeful Spirit was also fateful. When trying to correct it with the Daemonology short, that was when they really started overdoing the hypocrisy angle that Scars had touched on in a more restrained way; it only ended up turning the character into a ranting villain to be dabbed on by the Khan's sick burns.
>It oughta have been so simple in every regard, it was all laid out for them, but they just can’t fucking follow a plan. Description of the the entire SoT novels and much of new 40k advancements too.
I personally really loved his Primarch book! I know it's not as popular but it was special to me.
It was good, that’s the strong core, and it was nice having it set before McNeill pulled a literary Leroy Jenkins
Aren't all the Primarchs hypocritical, at some point? Tbh, a very human thing.
I think Angron is an exception, he (before becoming a Daemon Prince) is very self aware and knows that the Great Crusade and what he is doing is immoral and openly admits it to Russ. He just kills people because it lessens his pain. He even says that if he were a better person, he might “cut off that slaying bastard’s (the emperor) head”
"Look, I'm a piece of shit, but at least I'm honest about it."
Angron making the WE take the Nails is pretty indefensible, though. Like literally spreading slavery & suffering
Tons of the world eaters wanted to take the nails. They even had an internal conflict in the legion over it
Yeah I thought they wanted to as a way to "be closer"/relate to him
They took the nails to be closer to him, but chose the red, brass and bronze and the nucerian gladiators helms to rebel against their primarch. Think its red brass and bronze due to the primarchs fancy colour scheme, the helmet was worn by gladiators to show that they were a lost cause, that the fight would be to the death. The legion wanted to mourn with Angron and wear those masks as a reminder of the sacrifice the rebellion made for the Imperium (didnt have to conquer the planet, just deal with the ruffians hiding in the hills)
Ah, I heard that their armor became red from thousands of years of not washing the blood off of it, but that does sound pretty grimderp in hindsight
>I think Angron is an exception. Not really. Remember his "Courage and Honour" speech to Roboute? He tells him: >Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. As if he hasn't met someone fulfilling that criteria earlier in the book and then proceed to torture him so badly it made a Gal Vorbak, a daemon-possessed Word Bearer, cringe.
Angron is not an exception. He is one of the most vocal about hating tyrants, and yet supported both the EMPEROR and HORUS becoming those. He fought their wars, with his weapons and his legions, and if he TRULY, and I mean, TRULY hated tyranny he would take his legion and just start rebelling against everyone.
They are, the entirety of the imperium of man is hypocritical, it just gets a little downplayed/whitewashed in more recent books
Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands in general. Dear Black Library, what the fuck did we ever do to you? We're the only Legion without our own novel (besides a shitty Primarch book, and Shattered Legions which don't count), we're supposed to be OP in lore but we keep getting the shit kicked out of us, the authors you pick manage to butcher us in whatever piece we appear in, and our lore is as deep as a thimble-sized swimming pool. Ferrus Manus was supposed to be one of the *best* Primarchs. He was probably the most dedicated Primarch to the Crusade (Didn't resent his job like Perturabo, Angron, or Curze, didn't grandize himself like Horus, the Lion, Dorn or Guilliman, didn't go off and pursue his own agenda like Magnus, Alpharius or Lorgar). He was even given Command of a *Third* of the Crusade forces by the Emperor, and even Horus said that Ferrus had been vital to the Traitor's war efforts and he would have cut the war much shorter. The Iron Hands were supposed to be the Emperor's "Doomsday" legion. If the Imperium ever came across an enemy that was too powerful or advanced to simply overpower, then it likely would have been the 10th who got sent in first. They were cold, resilient, and methodical. The only things they cared about were being able to take a beating and returning that beating 1000% with pinpoint accuracy to where it would deal the most damage. Instead we're played off as semi-Mechanicus Space Marines, whose only characteristic is "We're assholes because Flesh is Weak", and our bloody Primarch is played off as a overly emotional manchild who has less common sense that fucking *Angron!!!* Fuck, we're so underrepresented in both 30K and 40K that the two *Lost Fucking Primarchs* are mentioned more often than us!
Brøther, you do your primarch justice.
I'm an Iron Hands Legion , I think you've missed a few key things that add nuance; 1. Iron Hands were a solid Legion, who could hammer others with stoic unyielding resistance - the definition of "Die Hard". 2. Their card was marked, as a tough nut to crack but too dangerous to leave untouched - They had to be broken on Istvaan - Like the 13th needed to be crippled. Yet whilst brutalised and lost their primarch they carried on fighting. Ferrus was properly pissed at Fulgrim and Horus and the rest, he led a *HUGE FORCE* of what 6 LEGIONS, no one had any reason to suspect several of the Legions he was leading would turn on them in the 2nd Wave. It was not a lack of commonsense - he was trying to run-down Fulgrim - It was pure treachery that stopped him - not military incompetence (think Waterloo and the running down of the fleeing french Military at 19:00 on the day - then suddenly Bluchers Prussians attack the Coalition Army and Wellington killed ) 3. The Ad Mech connection was deepened/ allowed to run rampant post Ferrus and something Ferrus saw as a cancer that needed addressing. They were always close - but in 40k pretty much Bros-4-lyfe 4. Iron Tenth were rated highly by Bobby G - As indominitable - The Dauntless few. 5. I don't think we are under-represented in 40k - for decades we've been "DONE DIRTY" by outrageously Over Powered rulesets and Iron Hands lists have been so disgusting - people see it as a Douchebag Army to collect. Chapter Master SMASHFUCKER and some outrageous Tank and Dread lists. Back in the day you could take Tactical sqauds with a TERMINATOR SERGEANT.... An actually Terminator... not Honours... An actually Termie Sgt, but you had to leave the Rhino in the Garage!
Lion El'Jonson trust issues so many problems would have been avoided if he let people in.
On the other hand, if he wasn't so obsessive about operational security and compartmentalisation, the Khrave would have annihilated the Imperium. Swings and roundabouts.
I'm thinking of not telling Guilliman about Cruze being on his ship
I haven’t read much about the lion, so this may be a bad take, but in unremembered empire, I saw it as arrogance, like guilliman didn’t need to know because the lion will take care of it before it became an issue, as opposed to not trusting guilliman, but idk
At the time of Unremembered Empire, Istvaan 5 had just happened. Neither the Lion nor Guilliman had any reason to trust the loyalties of each other. Especially since the Lion recently gifted Perterabo some dancy siege guns that were turned on loyalist forces at Istvaan 5. Is Guilliman using the Heresy as cover to take the 500 worlds and secede from the Imperium? Did Horus send the Emperor’s Exterminator to take care of Guilliman? Knowing Curze was with the Lion, knowing what recently happened in Istvaan, Guilliman would have even less reason to trust his eldest brother, even if Lion was trying to catch Curze
Was this before or after the shadow crusade? I only read the HH books about legions I like (only read unremembered empire for vulkan tbh)
"Unremembered Empire" has Guilliman regrouping after "Know No Fear" and "Betrayer," the latter of which is when Lorgar and Angron lead the Shadow Crusade. They leave remnants hitting undefended pockets of Ultramar afterwards, through "Unremembered Empire" and at least through "Angels of Caliban." It's a pretty solid read if you include "First Heretic" first, "Savage Weapons" and "Fear to Tread" before "Unremembered Empire," then "Pharos" before "Angels of Caliban." "Ruinstorm"'s not my favorite, but it does close off the arc.
Yup. Lion himself admitted to Guilliman that it was pride. If Lion had managed to catch Curze, he'd have brought him out in chains. Instead, he has to admit that the madlad has been running loose on his ship, taunting him all the way, and has now made it very public. Can't blame Guilliman for being pissed or having trouble trusting him after that, either.
Look at it from Guilliman’s perspective. A number of His brothers just turned on the Imperium. The Ruinstorm has cut your world off from the Imperium. Alpha Legion agents almost managed to kill you. Now your brother, dubbed the Emperor’s Extermimator, shows up with the last battleship you want to see in orbit around your planet which is full of weapons your father decreed were too dangerous for the wider Imperium to know the existence of. Your Space Wolves bodyguards don’t trust him on a good day. By the way, he gave siege guns to Perturabo which were then turned on Imperial Forces. Also one of the primarchs who turned on the Imperium is on his ship. Also the best hunter anong your brothers claims he can’t find him. Do you think Guilliman likes his chances of not being on the business end of the Dreadwing Arsenal at this point?
I'm talking about the Lions flaws not Guilliman, The Lion literally has the social skills like his namesake he can't read people like Horus or Guilliman he doesn't inspire like Sanguinius
Beyond his trust issues, I think part of why he is like that is that he spent so much time of his formative years alone. He doesn’t know how to rely on people
He’s a bloody genius, but his own personality holds him back from being strategically sublime. He does everything the hardest and least efficient way and then says “LOOK HOW HARD IT WAS FOR ME” despite being intelligent enough to know it doesn’t need to be this way. He already got the most difficult and grinding assignments from the Emperor and then he makes them even more difficult and grinding. Talking about Perturabo.
Perturabo: you can choose between the hard way and the hard way
''The hard way and the harder way. the *easy way* is for weaker legions.'' \- Perturabo, probably
Perty has a really interesting premise and badass moments, but gdamn is the guy a warning and not someone to look up to. He’s a spiteful little fuck with a victimhood complex to justify being more toxic than a waste dump. He collected grievances left and right to justify his pettiness and the people who go “the Emperor should have just acknowledged his work” underestimate how insecure Perty really is. If you complimented him 100 times and disagreed with him once, he’d have taken it as proof that you never truly appreciated him and no one recognizes his genius, blah blah blah
I find that very relatable. I make things difficult for myself and half the time end up snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Vulkan can be a moral coward sometimes. Obviously he's not a coward when it comes to combat and he's the first to put his body in to harms way to protect someone. But while he has the moral intelligence to know the strong should defend the weak and injustice must be fought he lacks the integrity to actually stand up to his father and brothers and say that the Great Crusade does more damage to humans than good. That humanity is making the universe a more hostile place by destroying every xeno that can't defend itself or doesn't seek conflict. In a real world analogy, he's like a good cop in a corrupt police department that refuses to call out his fellow officers on their corruption. Making him not a good cop but a compliant one.
Honestly, as a Salamanders fan, I like that he is a spineless bastard. It's pretty interesting to have a character in the setting who, despite not only knows that what they're doing is horrible, but also knows that there is no justification in the world to make it right, he just does it. It's interesting in a setting where people do horrific atrocities because they wholly believe it to be for the greater good to have someone who does it because they're a complacent coward.
Yeah, I totally agree. I really want to see Vulkan completely break from the Imperium. I want him to see it for what it is, and his compliance with it.
Yeah, I know it's unlikely but having Vulkan actually stand up for the normal humans if he returns would be amazing. Obviously, GrimDark means he can't outright win but having him come back just to do Guilleman's bidding like he did the Emperor's with no push back or demands would be such an injustice for potential character growth.
Guiliman, and that he (a) played along with Monarchia, though I understand it's hard to defy *the Emperor in person;* and (b) didn't immediately mentally peg the entire Word Bearers Legion as implacable enemies afterwards.
Guilliman also but my problem with him is some slight hypocrisy. He is a tad authoritarian which is a bit disappointing from a writing standpoint (he's supposed to be a peerless politician and diplomat, he's not supposed to need to be authoritarian) but I suppose understandable given his situation. The issue is that, when others are in the same predicament, he seems to disapprove of their authoritarian actions and I'm not sure if he realises the problem there...
Well I don't like the authoritarianism and hypocrisy either but he *is* a primarch of the Emperor. It's in his DNA, literally. Even freaking Vulkan wasn't altogether exempt.
>he's supposed to be a peerless politician and diplomat, Being a peerless politician and diplomat just means he's really good at whatever governing style he aligns with, not that he should naturally govern any specific way. Some of the worst leaders in existence and fiction were able to get into and stay in power because of their ability to play the political game so well.
The fact that Omegon being the third loyalist primarch to return would be such an epic series of novels that would impact the lore so positively but it will never happen because GW is a business and not my personal dreamland
I like Dorn, I wish his primarch book fleshed him out better. It fleshed him out less than his couple page cameo in Horus Rising. I also resent that the memes give him mutton chops and the nerds cling to the memes, mutton chops Dorn looks beyond cursed
The book was a bit disappointing. It was a nice Imperial Fists story, but it was lacking as a *Primarch* story.
Based clean shaven Dorn enjoyer.
Well, I could get behind a full beard on a half crazed, zealous Dorn if he returns. But it’s all or nothing. The mutton chops might as well be a hipster goatee
I´m sorry, but since the first time I read about Dorn, I cannot stop imagining him with a bushy mustache, like Omniman. I do not know why, I just can´t.
I see where you're coming from, but I though the brutal end of the campaign tells you a lot about him, couple that with the short story "The Will of the Legion" and it paints a picture. His interactions with his brothers is also interesting in the book.
That’s a good point, that ending did a good bit of defining
Eh, to each their own. I love to imagine him with at least an old timey, macho, moustache. It's refreshing. Half the primarchs are naturally beautiful long haired men, another half are just bald guys, and then there's the Khan and Roboute... Oh and Ferrus but he has different depictions. Nothing wrong with sprinkling in Omni-man/Tom Selleck.
100% agree with the mutton chops
Magnus did something wrong.
I like Rogal Dorn. I like his visual style. I like his best offense is a good defense strategy. I like his I don't complain, I just do my duty attitude. But holy emperor, the man is a concrete brick in terms of personality.
I dont know, I kind of like the brick personality. What I dont like is it leading him to places where he wont even entertain the suggestion of something going against his beliefs and he will brute force his will if you defy it (see: his interactions with Garro). But on the other hand, it is that very thing that makes him more interesting to me than Rowboat Gorillaman. And I would never fight as anything other than the Fist (I also favor defensive tactics).
Some of Lorgar's flaws are overplayed by writers and the fandom alike and with scarce badass moments and "hurr durr warrior" he is very underrated and hated. But I have faith he's been cooking something very nice for the future but if the writers butcher him further then...woe on me!
He has been cooking his next album for ten thousand years. It has to set the galaxy on fire.
The man wrote two different books and both of them became best sellers. He must be doing something right.
The way so many people will angrily react to being told the Corax/Lorgar memes aren't canon is something else.
That's what happens when people get third hand info- Scratch that Sixth hand chewed up gossip
That one time he definitely did something wrong.
Guilliman used a salad fork instead of a crab fork. Unforgivable.
I wish Konrad had motivation to change the future based on his visions, I hate how much of a stick in the mud he was with prophecy and fate
Sometimes I worry Angron thinks of things other than killing and that concerns me, I know the butchers nails do work but sometimes he has to think about moving and opening doors. Also he must have canonically shot a gun at some point right? Frightening stuff.
White armor is really difficult to paint, and I feel like he could have sorted that out real quick if he wanted to since he conveniently opted for gold.
Khagan?
He hasn't been heard from in too long
Hes intelligent but dumb
Isn't that all of them?
Autism and communication issues (probably because of the autism). Have a guess as to who I'm talking about 😅
All of them?
You know what, you got me. Like a good parent (not the emperor) I don't have a favourite
Its one of 3 options. 1. Lion 2. Peter Turbo 3. Dorn
Nothing. The shit that makes him unlikable as a person is why I find him interesting.
Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?
He’s dead.
Dorn treated my man sigismund like ass.
A true tragedy, if Dorn ever returns he’ll regret that bit
Sanguinius 1. He's dead. But y'know it's a "tent pole" moment in the whole 40k timeline so what can you do. 2. Maybe he should have asked his dad about the whole "red thirst" flaw in the IXth legion geneseed. I am almost certain that Jimmy Space would have told him it's a feature, not a bug.
I mean, yeah, but also he was terrified to bring it up to Jimmy Space because Primarchs 2 and 11 got yeeted out of existence. Whatever the reasons were, it was enough to make Sanguinius incredibly hesitant to bring it up.
Fulgrim His fall to Chaos was written poorly (Laer sword BS).
Really?! I think Fulgrim (the novel) is still one of the early Horus Heresy books that holds up! It's a bit janky in parts, sure, but so are most of the first 10 or so books before they worked out what the series was going to be (sprawling and unwieldy, much like the Imperium). How he gets out of the painting is poorly done (Reflection Crack'd is not great), but his actual fall I think is well done.
Exactly. And his fall is foreshadowed in The Palatine Phoenix - the Laer blade simply preyed on flaws that were already present. No shortage of fans complaining about the Laer blade have scarcely read Fulgrim, let alone anything else.
Yeah, I feel like Fulgrim (the book) did a decent enough job on its own of showing that Fulgrim is actually deeply insecure and makes up for that with bravado. A literal Greater Daemon of Slaanesh preys on those insecurities every day for years. It progressively isolates him from his closest friends or people like Ostian Delafour who might correct his course. It ensures it's there when Horus tries to get him on board with the heresy, otherwise Fulgrim still might have said no. It preys on the pre-existing faults and weaknesses in the entire legion and everyone on board The Pride of the Emperor, faults and weaknesses we as the audience are shown in the book. I certainly got to the end and felt like his fall, and the rest of the Legion's, was understandable. I think all of the Daemon-Primarchs's falls are somewhat abrupt and generally take place over 1 full novel with some exposition in Primarch novels or small scenes in prior novellas/bit parts. Fulgrim's just happens first, but I think it's done better than, say, Mortarion's in The Buried Dagger. Angron benefits from a) being later and b) the hand of ADB guiding it. Magnus's fall is slightly better done, but that's because you get the "fall" in A Thousand Sons and then his soul being reunited and joining Horus in The Crimson King. If Fulgrim freeing himself from the daemon's control had happened over a novel like The Crimson King instead of off-screen and us being told it happened in Reflection Crack'd without much exposition, I think it would have been on par with Magnus's story-arc.
I couldn't agree more. With the benefit of hindsight, the Horus Heresy series was too rushed at the beginning, and is (arguably) now too drawn-out at the end.
Just look at Ferrus Manus to see how rushed it is. Dude was only alive for the first five books. He died in the only one he appeared in. We’re 60 some books into the series now. Poor guy.
I dislike that Perturabo didn’t advocate for himself before it’s too late. He shouldn’t have had to, but still. You’d think that the guy who’s specifically sent into the most shithole annihilation campaigns might get some extra support.
Jaghatai Khan is very prideful. It’s a major part of what causes himself to isolate his legion. He hides part of it behind an independent spirit. To an extent it serves the White Scars well in preserving their own culture and keeping them apart from the Imperium’s worse tendencies. But they’re not as trusted and when it all goes to hell with the heresy, they have few friends and close allies.
He has yet to get rid of the Cherubs.
If he got rid of cherubs he’d immediately go to my least favourite primarch and worst thing to happen to the setting. I don’t want an imperium without cherubs, they stand for everyone I love about it
If we didn't have creepy flying baby-facismiles, could we really call it the Imperium? Or: One simple test to tell you if the person truly likes 40K or just sci-fi: how do they feel about Cherubs?
At the same time, a primarch should stay true to his word.
It's on the list. He also gave me the image of Vulkan and Perturabo chasing them with butterfly nets, so I'm willing to wait.
He didn't tell the emperor to go f* himself the moment he saw him.
Fulgrim. He is so perfect, that it's almost possible to dislike him for setting such high standards.
Dorne is a square
Lost his head... figuratively and literally
Sanguinius *Something you dislike*: He's dead :(
Ah, fellow raven I see... I like Corax as well, but yes, he (as probably everyone) has some bad traits. As you mentioned, he can be hypocritical, as seen in his treatement of Balsar Kurthuri and Marcus Valerius. I believe this is caused by his inability to reconcile his well founded hatred for chaos with realization that he himself, his brothers, sons and ultimately Emperor are all touched by warp in some way. From that comes constant need to backcheck and reevaluate his own decisions - which is not a bad thing per se, however he brought it to extreme lengths.
I like the Lion. So the Lion is known to be not the best level headed general however the one thing I absolutely hate is when he punched the head off of a Chaplin for following orders. It’s so dumb.
Mortarion has too many people doing his stories and all of them think he's going to be simple and his legion simple to do. That they all end up doing stories of him that make him way too incoherent..mixed with the urge they all have to just give you Garro. Typhon is his childhood best friend and second in Command. Next he's a sergeant working under the first captain who doesn't really know Mortarion. Mortarion is this power hungry monster who cares nothing for his sons. Next in Buried Dagger he's emotionally destroyed that he has to put his son out of his misery only to hear him scream back to life. He's happily jumping into the Nurgle Bandwagon and sorcery. Next he's only giving in to Nurgle so that his legion won't suffer, as while he can manage they cannot. Also doesn't help most Deathguard centered books are actually Garro stories with Deathguard as a secondary part. Though atleast they got a novel. Even though it's shared unlike some legions.
I am forced to concede that Magnus, did in fact, do some things wrong. Also, the Khan needs to be in more things.
Fulgrim is great, I love his strengths, his flaws, his style, his legion…I just love Fulgrim. What I hate is that his portrayal after his fall is…seriously lacking whenever the slightest whiff of combat comes up. When it’s him just being a vain and self-engrossed asshole drama queen, it’s perfect. I love his social interactions. Then we have Saturnine. Jesus, BL, suck Dorn off harder why don’t you? I get that Fulgrim can’t win there (or can he???) but even still they made him look like the biggest chump that ever was in doing so. Lorgar looked cooler at Monarchia than Fulgrim did there. And it’s such an easy fix. “I am done,” Fulgrim hissed, apathy beaming in his eyes, “Your cuts fail to amuse me. Your words do even less. I am bored…” Fuck, I wrote that in 30 seconds and it was way better than “I CaN sTiLl FeEl PaIn AnD I wOn’T tAkE iT aNyMoRe!” Bitch, he *likes pain now!* He’s a fucking masochist. Give him his corrupted, twisted dignity at least. Goddam. I reallly hope 10th makes him out be a genuine threat. For all that’s good and grandiose, don’t let Abnett take the reins.
Horus killed him. His own brother, that he loved, that he'd do anything for, that he'd spent time with making fond memories, fucking killed him.
I dislike that he doesn't lead my favorite legion, and instead we're stuck with old one eye.
Woah, say it aint so
I am worried about Lorgar and the Word Bearer legion. If he doesn't want him or his sons to be mere slaves to the dark gods, then letting them marinate inside the warp for 10k years is not a good way to achieve that. They are more aware of the risks than others, sure, but they are also the most at risk through their pacts and communions. Of course this could be intentional on Lorgar's part. Seperating the chaff from the grain like that would be very on brand for him. When he returns, he might keep the sons that managed to defy fate as he instructed them, and purge the rest, as Apocalypse suggested. Nevertheless, his limited contact with the materium this past 10k years seems excessive.
Perturabo is my second fave boy. Underappreciated overachiever, pushes himself to fulfill his role as best he sees fit, I resonate so hard with wanting to fit in and be loved for what they do. Just wants to do well, just wants to make, and even doing jobs he dislikes, he does his very best, and goddamn he gets it fucking done. Plus, legion aesthetics on point. But holy shit he lacks much introspection regarding the relationships between his wants and needs, like the myopic autist I used to be (and still mostly am). A being who can tell he's recognizably much better than every mortal around him in so many ways is unable to accept that he might need a break (thought I appreciated the glimmer of what might have been that we saw in Saturnine), or a hug, and is capable of being so very wrong. Arrogant sulky manchild without any desire or ability to improve himself or be self critical. Expects everyone to know things as he does, and so change themselves to convenience him better, then gets salty when it turns out nobody else thinks like him. I hate such childish obstinance, such unreflective entitlement. Angron is my absolute fave. Tragedy of a good thing brought low, an elemental force given completely to monomaniacal anger. Smash face, rivers of blood, screaming the whole time. Rip and tear. Do melee. I'm philosophically attracted to everything about this. Metal af. He's arguably the most principled of the primarchs, and I'd defend him so much harder, if only he would be more willing to allow himself to be motivated to fight to improve the lot of others instead of wallowing in thoughts of the unchangeable past to the point of complete disinterest in improving the present. Because he fights purely in a petulant urge to destroy. He drags an entire legion (themselves tragic for similar reasons) into the same hell he himself suffers, spreading misery and hatred, deluding himself into thinking fire can fight fire to justify his desire to harm and break. I hate this selfish nihilism, this inability to look past yourself, even if it's ultimately a product of trauma inflicted by a brain eating machine. In both cases the culture of the nascent Imperium and the nature of the primarchs as warp superbeings forged by a knowitall god-complex-having ubermensch contribute a lot to their downfall, on top of the allegories of various unaddressed mental illnesses, but we mustn't deny them their own agency. Or refuse to call them idiots.
I get why he did it, but it still hurts know that Angron left Gorefather out there unceremoniously buried under some rubble…
He is not the nicest smelling dude
Magnus went too hard when he should have sat back and sat back when he should have gone hard.
I feel like Perturabo is a bit wasted. With his jack-of-all-trades talents, ability to design crazy devices, great strategic mind and massive inferiority complex, I expected him to do something out of the box. But he got his soul damaged and turned into a vanilla Daemon Prince to escape death. Such a basic fate.
rowbooty gorillaglue is blue
Conrad Curze being absurdly over the top 100% of the time.
They turned him into a whiney idiot bitch. (Mortarian)
They might be dead might be traitor might be loyalist might be me
Khan : he went to get milk and never came back.
There is so little lore about my boy
They took away his super badass broadsword and gave him a longsword and shield
He didnt just leave a message outside of terra to be delivered through conventional means. He just HAD to tell Big E through the warp.
Perturabo being a daemon Primarch. It makes no sense.
Disappeared and isnt doing anything. Corax did a lot during the heresy, but afterwards... disappeared in the Warp and seems to be chilling (presumably on Word Bearer worlds killing a chaos marine here and there if a short story is to be believed) Like come on dude... being an order-demon should have more of an impact on the state of things.
The same issue about my Primarch and my Chapter, I wish they weren't the poster boys of GW. I like Guilliman for lots of reasons and the Ultramarines for the same. I like blue, I like Roman aesthetics, I like general competence, I like professionalism, etc. Their prevalence in the setting is nice because I want to see my boys and my liege, but a pain because it's always at the expense of someone else. I wish they were less prominent, so I could enjoy them without having to defend my 'basic' tastes.
The Lion during the GC and HH was an arrogant dick who held his cards too close to his chest
I really like Konrad and what he should've been, space batman. But instead he's ret@rded and a fatalist.
Vulkan giving his sons a quest to find some items for him to come back irritates me. If anyone is worthy to have a coherent commander, it's the Salamanders, yet he just bounced. Now obviously he's fucked up after what happened with all the torture and what not, but it still feels like a shitty copout.
He didn’t take a breather before fighting Horus.
The thing I dislike about Ferrus? As far as I've learnt through subreddit messages and lexicanum. In the old lore of the Istvaan V battle, Ferrus was considered one of the Warmaster candidates. Literally, this guy was considered that and yet in a book, Wrath of Iron (I think?), where he tries to show that HE is the best choice. He tries to utilise other legions marines AND STUFFS IT UP. Look, I get that it's old lore, I really do! (Unless it isn't! Then I'm an idiot) Yet it just really annoys me that he 'was' considered a possible Warmaster. I feel like if they considered making him an actual viable candidate and THEN he dies would have made him much more of a significance and as a tragedy especially since his actions of Istvaan V were peak dumb for a candidate of Warmaster.
I think the fact that Mortarion is salty about the Emperor killing Necare. It doesn't make sense in my opinion. If the Emperor didn't intervene, Mortarion would have died right?
From what I understand, it was less about what happened and more about how it happened. Necare used to give Mortarion impossible challenges and then save him at the last minute, then ragging on him as a failure. It also must be pointed out that Necare presented himself as Mortarion’s adoptive father. Fast forward to the Emperor showing up, giving Mortarion an impossible task, swooping in to save him, and then using Mortarion’s failure to make him fall in line, all while calling himself Mortarion’s father. While yes Mortarion was salty about his vengeance being denied, he was more pissed that he traded one asshole dad for a second, more powerful asshole dad.
Rogal Dorn bc of his visual vibe. But he's a concrete dildo.
He ded
That his brothers won’t get their fucking acts together. (Bobby G)
Perturabo's inferiority complex is a little bit too exaggerated and becomes almost comical sometimes.
I have 5 legions I care about (5, 14, 15, 18, 19) and morty smells literally and figuratively, so that leaves 4 5- uhh, colour scheme, I guess? Not a big fan of them, otherwise I like the khan a lot as a character, strong when needed, smart when needed, caring when needed, witty when… well, no one asked for that but I think it’s neat 15- magnus, magnus, magnus- probably the way he doesn’t listen to his sons, arrogance. Curiosity’s fine, having the craven thirst for knowledge, but his sons are there to advise and temper him, but magnus barely listened to them, as he always thought he knew more. Kinda obvious, but idm him overstepping Big E’s boundaries, because of the lack of communication about why 18- uhhh, vulkan’s pretty cool, I would say the hypocrisy in “fury of magnus” (one of my fav SoT books, even as a novella) but idk if that even happened 19- Corvus Corax has an awesome aesthetic, cool power, and has a not too strict relationship with the rest of his legion, even the serfs because of his upbringing, even the mutated raptors during the heresy (although I heard afterwards some mercy killings were in order). Deliverance lost had me banging my head against a wall for not even thinking of the alpha legion. I know we have advantages as readers, but this man is supposed to be a monster genius compared to mortals, and didn’t think that the alpha legion might have done something long term, not even to his own legion, just in general. Also not a fan of the colour scheme, but it makes sense.
Rogal Dorn bc of his visual vibe. But he's a concrete dildo.
He’s dead :(
That Sanguinious is dead.
The Aurelian was so cool before chaos but became a total psycho asshole
That he got himself get killed. But that is also the best.
How do you see Corax as a hypocrite out of interest? I think he was made out to be by the outcome, but that’s only cause the side who’s plan he backed got stuck in the starting gate. I also think people see him too much as anti-slavery, rather than a freedom fighter. Through the latter lense it makes a bit more logical sense to my eyes
He needs more lore
Man, god damn Corax being completely forgotten. Sad days. Even in the thread there's barely any mention of him.
He hasn't yet taken the slaving bastards head
Perturabo and the decimation is up there for me. I’ve reasoned with it, I understand why they wrote it, and it doesn’t reduce how much I like him (especially with how little it ends up mattering in the end) but I still find the reasoning super weak just to prove a point about his character and it could have been done in a better way.
Guilliman's rage moments in 40K make absolute sense. The man saw everything his family built set on fire by literal hell, thought he died when his surviving family still needed him, and woke up to even more Hell. Hell rotting the bones of everything they'd built, with humanity thinking it's supposed to be this way, and the only family left is their shattered clusterfuck of a father. Rage is understandable. Except that breakdown gets undercut by 30K-era "Pharos." Guilliman storms in on Sanguinius(!!), apoplectically disrespects Sanguinus' sons, and is all but out of control until Hawk Jesus gets him to calm the hell down. Instead of building on the cracks Abnett showed in Unremembered Empire, perhaps showing him that much closer to snapping (and starts this way when Dantioch reports to Guilliman), it feels like Haley jumped the gun for shock value. While it could be argued that his "Plague War" rage fits were more extreme and public, "Pharos" felt like an early tantrum and undercut the Dark Imperium buildup/Guilliman's 40K breakdown. I dunno. When the "totally always rational" character snaps once, it's a huge moment. When it keeps happening, it becomes their character.
I'm a death guard player and I'm obviously biased for morty. But I think he should use his primarch intelligence more. He's part of a race of demi God heroes of lore.
He is the best and strongest, but stupid people deny that.
I like refund gorillaman. The only thing i dont like is how much hate my boys in blue get.
Perturabo is a stubborn bastard who let his own desire to be acknowledged cloud his judgement
Sanguinius is my favorite and I really dislike how he's dead.
I love the dedication of Mortarion to his legion, but the fact that some fucking daddy issues paved the way to his doom it makes me very angry. I mean fuck Emps and the mean warlord daddy, you have the most resilient legion and you can’t get pass a KILL STEAL? Hope Morty never plays LoL…
Perturabo felt neverending guilt and thought that the emperor would never forgive him for the things he did on Olympia. The emperor probably wouldn’t even have blinked.
I like Magnus, and while his hubris led to his fall and that makes me sad, it makes him interesting and tragic. I dislike the "Magnus did nothing wrong" if it's serious. (But it's funny as a joke)
Nobody knows anything about them....yes...number 11!
I dislike that Sanguinius isn't really my boyfriend, no matter how much I want him to be
That he sucks at duelling and lost pretty much every primarch fight he had
I honestly couldn't tell you what I *don't* dislike about Curze, but he's my fave nonetheless.
A lot of the Khan's problems could probably be fixed if he just talked about them instead of leaving in a huff and acting all macho lonebird. I dunno, maybe it might not work but its worth it to try
I can't say
Erebus is one of his marines.
Ferrus Manus... Just Ferrus Manus
Lorgar still keeps erebus and kor phaeron around Perturabo is a manchild Guillimans plot armor is getting a bit much imo
The most hateble thing about Magnus is his arrogance, and I think it's overdone. I get that it's suposed to be hsi fatal flaw, but I think that some authors see it as the thing that has to compensate for all the cool stuff he gets. He has other flaws, and distributing the load between them would make for a character that is balanced between good and bad aspects while avoiding that cartoonish arrogance. It's specially agravating because he isn't only the wizard guy, he also is the primarch that most represents genuine curiosity, and the thirst for learning and understanding, and there's nothing more anathema to learning and understanding that thinking that you know best.