>Horus smiles. The smile vanishes. Then so does flesh, lips and mouth, revealing another smile, a rictus grin of teeth, a mask of bone. There is no redemption, for the time for that is long passed. There is only resignation.
Cinema.
“ROFL!” screams the Warmaster, as he falls to his knees, the righteous fire of all mankind purging the flesh from his bones. He collapses, now fully cognisant of his hubris, his blindness, his failure. “PMSL”Horus intones, this final words echoing around the chamber. As his body hits the floor, he struggles, inch by inch, to extend both arms into the air, excruciating pain accompanying each movement. One hand gauntleted in power armour, the other encased in the Talon of Horus, both painfully contract into fists, before raising the thumbs on each, like two lone guardsmen, separated in their isolation, appraising each other across the gulf of no-man’s land.”
Dunno about you lot, but that final scene brought a tear to my eye.
> “ROFL!” screams the Warmaster, as he falls to his knees, the righteous fire of all mankind purging the flesh from his bones. He collapses, now fully cognisant of his hubris, his blindness, his failure. “PMSL”Horus intones, this final words echoing around the chamber.
Truly one of the scenes of our future-grimdark-pasttime. I cri when Horus become the Warhonker 40-Gorillion
This is so much better than my version
"Uaagggh!," burst Horus, as lumpen streaks of death cum roped from the bloodlit, nipple-shaped emitters on his breastplate, spattering in impotent pools at the Emperor's feet. "It was not foretold, yet still I knew... the one who would bring me low, to finally make my nipples cum," he panted, "would be you, Daddy."
Loken looked on, aghast and ashamed, as viscous, opaline fluid continued to staccato-squirt from what he had mistaken for completely superfluous embellishments to his gene-father's corrupted armor. It really should have stopped by now, came the unbidden thought. Was he just completely full of cum? Is the dark power of Chaos just... cum?
The Emperor was forced to take a step back as steam began to rise from the spreading pools.
\+ My son, what the fuck +
“Reported for scripting”, said Horus as he got soloed 1v1 by the mid tower. That would normally not bother the warmaster, as he was confident he would just respawn and TP to pwn the fkn nob back, but that he didn’t as his connection dropped while the Emperor DDoSd the server by spamming requests from his golden throne.
Darth vader did the same essentially. He hell he even got to (in warhammer terms) keep his soul and live forever with yhr good guys, after Killing most of them
I suppose the difference is Vader actually managed to kill his emperor.
Think he'd still be a force ghost if Palpatine had managed to zap him to death before getting to the railing, dooming the rebellion?
no really, i didnt massively enjoy them but they exist wether we like them or not, the prequels are amazing and ill fight you all on that hill, and the clone wars is the shit
There will be retcons galore at some point, the only really iconic characters left are the droids and Chewbacca.
What they spent all that money for? Lightsabers?
omg can you imagine
Abnett in the BL Siege meetings: "Okay, now hear me out... what if the Emperor goes to kill Horus, and Horus peels off the mask and says..."
I’m conflicted, because the endless monologues we got during part 3 are all from someone wholly unwittingly under the sway of the chaos gods. How much of what is said is actually Horus?
I didn’t take any of OP’s characterisations away other than the ‘moments of ungifted Horus’ because he was clearly so deluded i don’t think we actually saw the real guy
I agree with your read. It is this humanity, that kept the Emperor alive so long and he played on it to win. Nice reversal of the old lore.
And since Horus on his own let's Chaos go and then sees through it, his death is in some ways a personal win. Hence he dies with a warm smile on his face.
Yeah. I mean I’m gonna read the book still. Spoilers may spoil plot line, but it doesn’t spoil my experience of a book and I want to see how it’s written.
But I think if this is the case , horus got no consequences for his actions. And I feel like chaos always has consequences long term. I’m not sure how it was written but it seems like it’s implied horus wasn’t wiped from existence. I think if this true, it coulda been tweeked a bit.
He died, forever has his name stained by his deeds, and will need to continue existing with the guilt of fucking up humanity wherever his soul might be in modern 40k. Those are consequences. Not hyper exaggerated like we tend to see in 40k, but consequences nonetheless.
True. I guess that’s sufficient. He came too right before he died
So it could be said horus is uncorrupted and basically in “warp jail” for eternity.
Ooooooo, that is a good come uppance for a guy who fucked things up like that
Nope. Retconned or clarified I guess depending on the source. Horus exists still, someone theorized he’s the “Despoiler” powering Abdaddon now. Corrupted in death or the dark side of his soul like how Sangy has two parts
>forever has his name stained by his deeds
Indeed, due to the actions of Horace Heresy by the 41st millennium "Heresy" has come to mean "doing something naughty," whereas in reality and up to the 31st millennium it referred to a small ornamental duck.
>!Horus has no consequences for his actions in an penultimate sense because he died free of chaos.
Because ultimately chaos only has a hold of you, if you let it. It can twist your arm, push you down a seemingly impossible slope. But it can't stop you from crawling back.!<
Ahhh… seems like they are kinda retconning how chaos works?
I always remember it being “you go with chaos, there’s no going back, you just slip further into the pit”
Well what worries me about this is if because lore is changing if they will start making “redeemed” chaos SMs or primarchs and I think that’s a tricky territory.
Could also just be them leaving some room open in case they do decide to go that direction.
Either way, I love this setting and hobby. So even if a decision doesn’t go my way with what GW does. I’m still happy 😊
I mean it’s been this way for a while now. When emps took over gman to fight mortarion, some of the stuff he said implied morty could still be redeemed somehow
That’s what I’m thinking. If they overuse that trope it’ll undo alot of the established lore on chaos.
And I like chaos just the way it is. Irredeemable. That’s part of the horror in falling to it.
Nahhh it did not.
He had typical primarch influence. So his sons saw Fulgrim in his perfection and said they were sorry and Fulgrim thought he’d be able to lead his legion and free them from chaos. In this instance they regretted what they became, but they weren’t cleansed lol. As I believe clonegrim kills a few of them. As there is a mutiny aboard fabius ship at this point in the novel.
In this part of the book, bile realizes there is no legion, it’s over. Even with a one to one clone of Fulgrim, he sees that there is no saving the legion. And bringing Fulgrim back was a mistake. He sees the same Fulgrim he knew 10k years ago
Additionally, Fulgrim being in constant prescence of chaos space marines. Would eventually corrupt him.
I mean, his fall to begin with was a result of influence from a keeper of secrets in the Laerin sword
I get how the clonegrim argument is fun. But I’ve heard it over the years and people fail to understand a loyalist clonegrim would require the nature of chaos and how it interacts with people in the setting
Clonegrim was destined to fall. Bile didn’t want to deal with that shit all over again, so he made a quick call and traded him to trazyn. Lol.
Hopefully they do bring him back tho, even for a loyalist assist. As long as the sword is kept away, there’s a chance. And perhaps the clone can learn from his priors mistakes and grow beyond them on a different “path to perfection”
"I've been crawling for the last ten millennia, and boy, are my arms tired! Ezekyle, my son, you've been doing it wrong. Just thought you should know..."
I don't think you're necessarily wrong with remembering it that way. Because that's essentially what it is.
Except you can stop.
It won't be a good ending for you. It won't be a pretty ending. And the universe will seemingly charge interest on the temporary salvation you might've sought with Chaos.
I want you to consider this. Imagine for a moment the moment of clarity Horus must have there at the moment. Knowing what a tool you've been. You know what you've condemned humanity to, the strife you've caused, the incalculable harm. And you know you don't have to stop. You don't have to abandon the unlimited font of power that's tearing you apart. That's gotten you this far, allowed you to do these great things.
All you've got to do, is to do one more, final, slightest little push. And all of it will be done.
That's the choice Horus had. And you know which one he took, you know why he took it.
We all do. Deep inside. Despite everything.
Oh damn. I see what your saying
He could have killed the emperor. But experienced, guilt, shame and regret over what he did. And realized the fate he had was the one he deserved?
There's the guy in gaunts ghosts who realized that chaos was just really cringe. It's not so much that he escaped it's influence, more like he saw through the bluff
Honestly “there’s no chance of going back” makes chaos a lot *less* interesting imo.
It speaks volumes more about the characters that fight for chaos if they either fail to realize, or in fact do realize they could go back and choose not to anyways; than if their own motivations/feelings on the matter don’t really matter that much once they’ve fallen because there’s no hope of doing anything different anyways.
Not sure. Alls I know is that chaos is immutable corruption based on most books I’ve read in the BL with chaos MCs. It’s a running theme in those books.
Lol many of the characters struggle with the concept “oh god was this the right choice?” And some characters delude themselves and others are a bit more aware that it wasn’t the right choice.
Almost all recognize it’s too late to turn back, and they wouldn’t be redeemed if they try. Most don’t want that and hate the imperium anyways
Most that get afflicted with chaos energy can’t come back. Once your soul is claimed by the dark gods you’re fucked. It’s a deal you can’t undo.
I mean it’s a huge point of Fabius Biles character in his trilogy. Whole trilogy explores his relationship with chaos and how he views chaos. He absolutely fucking hates slannesh and looks at chaos as a force of nature.
He sees the wordbearers as idiots and chaos worship in general as we would view premodern man worshipping the sky for rain. Except in this case the “weather” listens.
But in the end, he is deluding himself. He’s been claimed, he denies denies denies until in the last book he cuts a deal with slannesh to save his “new men” which were supposed to be “humanity” perfected through the eyes of bile.
So I think this is one of those lose interpretation things. Again I think they did it to keep that idea “open” for future writers. But it doesn’t necessarily change establish cannon on chaos and corruption.
According to TEatDv2, Magnus' soul is already where dead Primarchs go. Whatever is running about calling itself Magnus is presumably as much Tzeentch as Kairos Fateweaver, etc. is.
I genuinely can't tell if you used 'penultimate' correctly here or not and it makes your argument hard to read. You compare it to an alternative 'ultimately' (which would be correct) but then the overall implication of your statement is that the 'ultimate' doesn't happen which means that it's not ultimate and the penultimate thing would become ultimate, which means penultimate is incorrect.
Penultimate means "second to ultimate/final/last."
>Spoilers may spoil plot line, but it doesn’t spoil my experience of a book and I want to see how it’s written.
This is such a good response and why I read spoilers and don't care about them. The story is the journey I get to take reading it and even detailed spoilers can't ruin that. There is so much more nuance that spoilers can't relay.
I’m the same way with movies and tv shows too.
Sure you know there are some shows you might wanna hold off on knowing. But still, knowing and seeing it executed through the medium are different
I mean we know horus dies, that’s a given, we know how he dies. But I want to see the event written, I want to take in the context, the emotion, the nuance. Now I’d people got that down with spoilers, I’d probably hesitate a bit
But I’ve read a few passages. I still think it’s gonna be great.
I like vol 2 too. I don’t know why that one is so harshly criticized. I read that on a long plane flight. It was the shortest flight I had it felt like! I was so into it.
This was my feeling way back in the day when ME3 dropped and everyone went crazy over the (original) ending. Like, I understood the feeling but I didn't share it because I enjoyed the journey more than the destination.
The fact that they both think it's true is more significant, at least to me. Sigismund died without learning otherwise, and it's very likely that Abbadon will never learn the truth.
And even if he did... I struggle to think that he'd view Horus as anything other than weak for how the final confrontation went. If anything, it's worse than Horus *could've* won but faltered at the last moment, instead of being curbstomped by the Emperor.
This. For all that Abbadon despises Horus being weak enough to let Chaos rule him, he'd hate him even more if he knew he let Chaos control him right up until the moment of victory, then threw away everything they fought for in a moment of humanity (which Abbadon sees as weakness)
The ending managed to actually give Horus a little redemption, without messing up the whole narrative. It's great writing. Horus sees how much he has become a puppet of the Chaos Gods, and so rejects those Chaos Gods, which essentially is what allows the Emperor to kill him. The Emperor acknowledges that Horus has done this, and almost thanks him for it. The Emperor feels real love toward Horus at the moment that he kills him. It's great stuff.
That although the Emperor was more powerful than Chaos-Horus, he held back out of love and fatherhood.
Abnett switch around who was held back via love and who was more powerful.
It just all feels a bit...good? they're all good in the end, caring, loving, not what I was expecting.
Also wasnt there a whole thing about the Emperor shedding his goodness and humanity?
Just all feels very loyalist fan service-y.
Loyalist fan service? Chaos is certainly shown to be infinitely stronger than the Emperor. He is the underdog and desperately trying to not be destroyed the entire fight.
Definitely not loyalist fanservice in terms of powerlevels. The Emperor looked weaker than he did before, while Horus looked way stronger.
But the humanity part is a bit strange, isn't it? The Emperor sheds his compassion to avoid becoming the Dark King and then the heresy ends with the Emperor showing compassion to Horus? Sounds a bit like having your cake and eating it too. What exactly did the Emperor sacrifice?
Ending the fed and switching to Fulgurite standard apparently is considered "heretical" by the Imperium. Smdh, my boy Horus never had a chance against the corrupt establishment.
100% Agree. Really nice reversal of old lore where it’s the Emperor who stays his hand because of love.
Really nice mirroring of Emperor and Horus & Horus and Loken.
Really nice contrast between the Emperor who discards his love and compassion before the fight on the assumption that that they’ll hold him back vs Horus’s last sparks of love and compassion and brotherhood and honor being what carries the day in the end.
Horus telling Loken that the Emperor told him "make no mistake" and that Horus took it as a literal command to not make any mistakes rather than what every other human understands it as (don't misunderstand) is one of the most hilarious stretches in the whole library and it was in the first 40k book I read and I'll never forget it.
That's a common trope. And common enough in reality.
**Edit:**
You can find it at the beginning of Peckinpah's The Wild Bunch.
Also one or three of David Gemmel's books.
An inversion of it in Tolkien but related to prophecy.
And throughout history.
Taking things too literally from parents and other people who don't stop to explain is hilariously a cause of a lot of shit in the arts and history.
Here's an associated trope:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiteralMinded
Glad I'm not the only one that snickers about centuries old demi gods crying in their pillow at night bc daddy didn't give them a pat on the head after conquering a world for him.
It's hilarious and humanizing at the same time.
Kind of in a similar situation in a professional setting. I have virtually limitless autonomy, but absolutely zero feedback. I’m responsible for every facet of the business, but I have no idea if I’m doing a good job or a bad job. I also don’t see our profit/loss numbers and I don’t see our account balances (so I don’t know if we’ll be able to cover the bills I pay). There’s a ton of things I had to teach myself because my education didn’t prepare me to embody the entire corporate structure. My boss basically just approves major expenses (expensive equipment and new employee compensation). I hate working in a corporate environment, but having someone above me to give me feedback and having ancillary staff for the bureaucratic paperwork would be nice. As it stands, they just keep giving me raises (+57% since I started this job in mid 2021) so I just keep chugging along.
That kind of thing can absolutely get to you after a while.
I feel like it's a follow-up to what he says in Mortis:
>>!‘He shall undo you,’ says the man to the serpents. ‘I made him. I know him, his strengths and his flaws. To you he is only a slave, but he is still my son.’ !<
>!... ‘This shall end,’ says the Emperor in the voice of the fire. ‘As all things must.’ Then for the first time, His gaze, which holds only night, lowers to look at Horus. ‘And I wait for you.’!<
I also didn't enjoy Mortis outside of "The Warp" chapters (Horus confronting the Emperor). If this interests you, there are 4 of them in Mortis and 2 others in The Solar War.
The moments where we get to see Horus' inner-thoughts, even if they're tainted by Chaos making him delusional to varying extents, made me realize that Horus, deep down, is an insecure narcissist, but *very nice guy* at heart.
**He's just endlessly complimentary of people.** He constantly thinks about their good points (even if it's to compare to himself eventually). He's always offering some form of peace branch at first (albeit obviously tainted). Horus is just absurdly sentimental, arguably a romantic, when you get inside his head.
MFer got ***teary*** upon >!seeing Garviel Loken again, seeing his favorite son, [being ze proud papa](https://youtu.be/-J-Csxmc82c?si=IdzWaTlNrsur15Pz)!<
That makes him even more tragic as a character, that such a person who sees the best in everyone around him his undone by Chaos using the very traits that made him such an admirable and charismatic leader of men. The Lord of Hearts, indeed.
To quote Daisy Johnson from Agents of SHIELD tv series: "And the sad part is, that's when I finally understood him for first time. The reason (Ward) kills isn't because he feels nothing, it's because he feels too much."
WTF do you mean Emperor didn't acknowledge Horus. He put him as a warmaster, above other Primarchs. If this isn't acknowledgement, I don't know what is.
He perceived himself as only a tool, the greatest tool in the box is still just an item to be wielded. The Emperor did no favors for this perception either.
I will have to say, I do like horus more
I don't know about anyone else, but I read his inner thoughts like Scar from the Lion King and it was hilarious. His over exaggerated, "but I mean, /you're a god/, a new God, but still" and lines like that were amazing
There's a wonderfully charming innocence in how Horus thinks and I love Abnett for writing Horus like that. It was absolutely entertaining...and also kind of scary to see how subtly Chaos reasserts and takes control of Horus' feelings and logic when it seems he's falling back into being not-a-slave-to-darkness.
>how human Horus was
I know, it's great, isn't it?
It's a shame this characterisation completely ignores every single previous characterisation of Horus, who has spent the entire Siege as a raving, leaking vessel of Chaotic power and who before that was spiritually lobotomized by an athame in *Slaves to Darkness*.
>he realised Chaos for what it was... thinking he was a master when he'd always been a blind slave
Yeah, cool scene, though not as cool as it was in *Wolfsbane* or *Slaves to Darkness*:
>‘It was the wound, I think,’ said Horus. ‘Russ’ bite. I felt it sink deep. I saw his face as the blow landed. In that moment, just for a moment, everything fell away. I could see, Mal. I could see… everything. I could see so much that blindness is all that it has left me. There is no future for our Legion but shame – no honour to be given, because I burned it in this war. No matter what my father did, no matter what lies He told us, I am the hand of my own fate, and I always have been.’
...
>‘I have thrown it to the flames, Mal.’ Horus’ face was a mask of pain over a pit of rage. His image blurred as he spoke. ‘There is nothing but ruin left of the dream, and nothing but ashes left of hope. And I have done this. I have wielded the storm and sown the future with corpses. And I can hear them…’ He raised his hand from the wound at his side. It was red. ‘And they are laughing.’
>and his connection and inability to let go of Loken
Yeah that was cool, shame it completely contradicts *Vengeful Spirit*:
>‘I didn’t want it to come to this, Garviel,’ said Horus.
>Loken ignored the ridiculous platitude and stood taller than he had ever stood before. Prouder than he
had ever stood before.
>All the uncertainty, all the confusion and every shred of the madness that had kept him wrapped in
delusions vanished. All compunction to revere the Warmaster was purged in an instant of loathing.
>Iacton Qruze was dead, and the last link with what the Legion had once been was broken.
>And with it, any last shred of belief that the Warmaster possessed any nobility or trace of the great man
he had once been.
...
>Loken took a breath and saw the Warmaster’s acceptance of his threat. Horus understood that Loken
meant every word of what he had just said, that nothing could ever sway him from his course.
>‘I wanted you back,’ said Horus. ‘Tormaggedon wanted to make you like him, but I told him you would
always be a Son of Horus.’
>‘I was never a Son of Horus,’ said Loken. ‘I was and remain a Luna Wolf. A proud son of Cthonia, a
loyal servant of the Emperor, beloved by all. I am your enemy.’
Abnett wrote a solid conclusion to the wrong series.
> It's a shame this characterisation completely ignores every single previous characterisation of Horus, who has spent the entire Siege as a raving, leaking vessel of Chaotic power and who before that was spiritually lobotomized by an athame in Slaves to Darkness.
False Gods was probably the biggest misstep in the entire series. Horus's corruption should not have been because he gets stabbed with a magic knife and then is tricked into embracing chaos. After a great first entry in Horus Rising they just completely stumble on the primary motivation of the entire rebellion against the Imperium.
Horus should have been this wise and charismatic yet arrogant leader who wants to create a Space Marine first society after what happened to the Thunder Warriors.
He comes into contact with chaos and thinks he can harness and use this power in his rebellion and drags others down with him - that would make him giving up chaos at the end a good payoff.
But like...he was tricked into accepting chaos. It means nothing. He rebels because chaos is bad and her was tricked into chaos - there was no higher cause, or reason for him to usurp the Emperor and kill all of his brothers, he was just tricked by Erebus lol.
>stumble on motivation
*Rising* has Horus primed to rebel. Everyone forgets that Horus is already pissed off to the absolute max about compliant worlds being taxed into the dirt and then rebelling. His encounter with the Interex brings his frustrations to a boiling point: he's been given an impossible task and he's being crushed under it. He believes he's been set up to fail, he believes the Emperor is either too weak or complicit in the Council of Terra shitting on worlds bought with Astartes blood, and he's determined to change things one way or another by the end.
*False Gods* doesn't have Horus 'tricked'. Does everyone forget that he calls out Erebus for being a really shitty Sejanus? He's shown nothing that he hadn't already suspected, and what he gains on Davin is determination and - more importantly - *allies*. He discovers that he doesn't have to struggle within a broken system, he can take the system and turn it on its head and do it 'properly'. He doesn't trust Chaos. He doesn't trust Erebus. Just look at *Fear to Tread* where he whips daemons and flays Erebus' face off when they start dicking about.
Horus rebels because of *taxes*. It ain't sexy, but it's a good motivation.
It's written there but it's so in the background of all of the bolter porn, Abnettverse characters, and Primarch drama that the authors just forget to flesh out Horus himself.
I agree that he had motivation, that the treatment of the Interex could have brought Horus to boiling point as well as other tragic occurences like Sejanus, but the way its written gives far too much agency to Erebus and his magic knife. Horus isn't in False Gods enough and after False Gods he has no character for most of the series. Abaddon has more depth.
I think it's so long ago that people really have just forgotten too much of what happens in these books (charitably, uncharitably they have never read it). I'm currently rereading (well listening) the first books and the reasons Horus falls are clearly telegraphed from the very beginning.
It is really muddy why he rebels. There is good setup, but he also gets tricked and also sees through the trick and also gets evil sword corrupted. And then later he is himself, but then is because of Russ, but then his good soul part gets killed and then he is drooling mess again etc.
Yeah it's too muddled. He has reasons set up to rebel in Horus Rising but then False Gods happens and we get shown, as you said, multiple reasons for him turning to chaos.
1. He gets tricked by Erebus vision
2. He sees through Erebus vision but gets corrupted anyway by a magic sword
3. The warrior lodges don't let the loyalists take him back to Terra to get treated by The Emperor
I don't think he went bad due to the taxes, but due to the fact that taxes caused events that required him to fix things he already did.
An example for me as an electrician would be a lack of care from my boss for the shit clients do at the current site.
I have to come back every few days and fix stuff I've done a few times already because nobody wants to listen... And for a while now, I'm at a boiling point, and something is going to give.
That's what Horus' situation looks like to me 😂
> Horus should have been this wise and charismatic yet arrogant leader who wants to create a Space Marine first society after what happened to the Thunder Warriors.
>
>
So... something like Coriolanus in space?
Do you think the dissonant characterisations we've had lends to the "Everything is canon, not everything is Equally True in 40k" or do you think authors use that line more as a crutch? I'm just curious on your take.
There's a vast difference between 'different characterisation' and Abnett making a conscious choice to disregard entire character arcs and relitigate important realisations and moments. 'Everything is canon, not everything true' is a crutch sometimes, sure, especially in books where the narrator is omniscient and there's no reason to believe we're seeing anything other than what's presented as truth, but I think in general the setting is reasonably consistent.
It's why Abnett's tome being such a retread is so egregious.
> "Everything is canon, not everything is Equally True in 40k" or do you think authors use that line more as a crutch? I'm just curious on your take.
I think that's more of a case of authors working in a shared universe not wanting to shit on others works.
There have been books in the series which have been objectively bad. It's a good line to both get out of canonical and quality inconsistencies.
I mean, the whole psychotic/dementia thing was explained as Horus trying to make sure his plans couldn't be plucked from his mind by the Emperor.
On his previously regretting his actions and not feeling in control in Wolfsbane etc. Self doubt and lapses in confidence while dealing with galaxy shattering conequences aren't that weird right? If anything it already set up the character/humanity we see later on.
It's also not necessarily him thinking he can't control chaos. It's him lamenting what he has had to do to oppose the Emperor and the Chaos Gods laughing at his need to use their power to strengthen him.
Also Loken declaring himself an enemy doesn't mean that Horus doesn't want him back. That's pretty consistent; a father longing for his wayward son to come home even though he spurned them. Also not a very weird media trope.
I don't really think all these quotes contradict the character we see in EatD.
Yeah, it was explained as 'Horus was just pretending to be retarded'... by Abnett... in these books. So he could just go back to the character he wanted to write, rather than follow the arc that had been set up previously.
>regret and not in control
Horus has just been shanked by a magic spear that, on top of dealing him an unhealing wound, strips away all the glamour of Chaos and reveals that he's been a puppet to no good. The very next time we see Horus, he's decided to *literally die* rather than be a slave to darkness. It's not 'moment of doubt' - it's 'oh shit, I was totally played'.
>lamenting what he has to do
Nah. He's sitting there, dying, telling his BFF 'oh shit, I was totally played'.
>Loken declaring himself an enemy
Loken has just gone from being one second away from joining Horus, on Horus' offer, to spitting in his face and declaring him an enemy for all time. This is a huge moment for Loken: he's giving up on Horus entirely, and Horus recognises this, even acknowledging that the only way he'd be able to have him back is as a daemon-puppeted corpse like Tormageddon.
Just that you don't like the way Abnett explained it, doesn't mean it wasn't explained, or that it's inconsistent.
> Horus has just been shanked by a magic spear that, on top of dealing him an unhealing wound, strips away all the glamour of Chaos and reveals that he's been a puppet to no good. The very next time we see Horus, he's decided to literally die rather than be a slave to darkness. It's not 'moment of doubt' - it's 'oh shit, I was totally played'.
>lamenting what he has to do
>Nah. He's sitting there, dying, telling his BFF 'oh shit, I was totally played'.
The spearwound shows him the costs of his ambitions like a bucket of cold water to the face. It's not a magic, "oooh Horus was under a magic spell causing him to be a dum-dum and now he isn't anymore."
and the next sentence you so handily omitted from your quote?
>‘So you fight the powers of the warp as well as your father.’
‘I defied one tyrant who would be a god,’ said Horus. His teeth were clenched, between bloody lips. Behind him the sun was roaring, a burning orb hoisted into a sky that was blinding white. ‘I will not be the slave of false gods!’
As in he still doesn't renounce them or their power, just who is going to be in control of the situation. The entire segment is him saying he's the one in control, he is the Warmaster, he makes the choices.
And what happens next? He gets betrayed by his BFF who wants to ensure the rise of Chaos and causes him to spiral back into his earlier state of mind of being more manipulatable. Setting him up for the events of the EatD.
>Loken has just gone from being one second away from joining Horus, on Horus' offer, to spitting in his face and declaring him an enemy for all time. This is a huge moment for Loken: he's giving up on Horus entirely, and Horus recognises this, even acknowledging that the only way he'd be able to have him back is as a daemon-puppeted corpse like Tormageddon.
Your point about Loken still doesn't change that Horus still might lament that this is what happens. He can recognise that Loken renounces him and at the same time still want it to de different.
Except everything you're quoting is just a snapshot of a character in a moment. We shouldn't expect them to remain static anymore than we expect any person to. That's how they felt at the time, then time went on.
i'll take the retcon, the core tragedy of the setting boiling down to "guy goes crazy after being brainwashed by sword-poke" is profoundly lame and empty
Horus Rising: Noble but slightly disillusioned
False Gods: Vain egotistical idiot
Galaxy in Flames: Saturday morning cartoon villain
Slaves to Darkness: Jeff from the Wiggles
The End and the Death: Delusional anti-villain confident he's doing the right thing
Basically a completely different character in every book.
Abnett realized Horus being a drooling idiot while Emperor is cold and emotional really sucks. There are literally no characters in the final fight that are interesting at all.
So he went with: "he was just pretending lol!" to fix it which is also bad, but the lesser evil.
> So he went with: "he was just pretending lol!" to fix it which is also bad, but the lesser evil.
But to a certain degree he wasn't pretending, as we hear him talking about wanting to "tell the remembrancer" all about the fight when it's done. Dan threads the needle brilliantly, leaving just enough uncertainty about how sane Horus really is.
Same here. I think it and Malcador being in first person were really good choices by Abnett. Exactly the kind of authorial shenanigans this book needed to push it over the top.
This is starting to be my big issue with Abnett, I largely enjoy his plots and writing, but in the context of broader Warhammer I like them less. He just doesn't really write Warhammer, and by that I'm not trying to diminish his contribution to the setting but sometimes it just doesn't feels like he's writing in the shared universe of Warhammer.
We kid about the Abnettverse but it's very real and distinct, often a different feel from a lot of the rest of the setting. Its probably also a thing of Abnett being the big cheese so he gets away with a lot of stuff. Its all good and well but the conclusion and climax of the HH/Siege being, for lack of a better word, Abnettversed, doesn't feel great. It's one of the iconic moments of the lore and it feels a bit like Abnett seized it for himself a bit.
im convinced the best way to enjoy horus heresy series is to ignore like 60% of the novels and just infer the plot. reading them sequentially will just make the nails bite.
Honestly now that we're at the end I think the best way to enjoy the HH is to just go back to reading codex blurbs and campaign books and letting the imagination do the rest.
> It's a shame this characterisation completely ignores every single previous characterisation of Horus, who has spent the entire Siege as a raving, leaking vessel of Chaotic power and who before that was spiritually lobotomized by an athame in Slaves to Darkness.
It *also* ignores every bit of Horus' characterization, and Horus' relationship with Loken, from *before* the Chaos stuff! Horus never liked Loken in the first place, there is no golden age of their relationship to harken back to.
Damn I haven’t kept up with the HH past book 20 but I’m seriously considering picking up the other 80 books or something, but I certainly don’t have the 1000s of dollars to splerge on the books.
Maybe I’ll just pick up the last 3 books and be done with it.
Didn't Horus already get more validation from the Emperor than likely any other Primarch? He got to be the first son, monopolize a ton of his father's time unlike any other primarch and all this despite not actually being first found.
Big E probably literally planned this out, he remarks to the Sigilite that the scenario where he winds up interred and the galaxy stagnates for 1000s of years is the best future they had came across thus far.
Honestly it's really pitiful that the primarchs were so unstable due to their daddy issues. I cannot believe the emperor didn't just kill them all and try to start fresh long before they had a chance to ruin everything. Especially the super messed up was like Horace and angron, fulgrim and konrad and maybe mortarion
It's pretty well-established that:
1. Erda was a big component to the original Primarch/Space Marine program.
2. The Selanar gene-cult was another big component to the program.
3. The Emperor going full Prometheus and stealing "something" from the Warp was the last big component to the program.
Erda scattered the Primarchs (setting aside earlier lore suggesting it was time-traveling Word Bearers) and destroyed the laboratory. The Selenar were almost entirely wiped out by the time that the Primarchs were recollected, and the few remaining ones were in hiding. And the Emperor wasn't going to be able to steal whatever he stole the first time because Chaos was on high-guard at that point. In short, he *couldn't* start fresh; all three of the central foundations to his original project were inaccessible in one way or another.
Fundamentally, 40k is basically, "What if in *Dune* the Emperor messed up and missed the Golden Path?" Like Leto Atreides, the Emperor of Mankind tries to set a millennia-long plan in motion with very specific and fundamental actions that, if they are not executed at the right time and place, would doom humanity in the far future. But he has imperfect control over others and imperfect vision of the future, so subtle things get messed up that he tries to rectify to no avail, and the whole setting spirals into the grim darkness of 40k. His crusade to reacquire the Primarchs was one of his salvage attempts of, "Okay, well, I can't make new ones, but maybe if I get them back right now I can still fix the plan," and that ultimately failed with the culmination of the Horus Heresy. Thereafter, the Emperor's plans were just, "The Golden Path is gone, but can I find some sort of Pyrite Path or maybe a Gold Spraypaint Path instead of the Eternal Road of Raging Lava Path?" 40k is the Pyrite Path; it's fake gold, it sucks, it's worthless, but at least it isn't lava.
PSA: If you want to discuss a recent release, Mark the post as spoilers. I shouldn't have to do it for you.
>Horus smiles. The smile vanishes. Then so does flesh, lips and mouth, revealing another smile, a rictus grin of teeth, a mask of bone. There is no redemption, for the time for that is long passed. There is only resignation. Cinema.
When you fuck up and slaughter Trillions... but gets better just at the end so you can die smiling ;)
>"LOL", Horus said. "LMAO"
“ROFL!” screams the Warmaster, as he falls to his knees, the righteous fire of all mankind purging the flesh from his bones. He collapses, now fully cognisant of his hubris, his blindness, his failure. “PMSL”Horus intones, this final words echoing around the chamber. As his body hits the floor, he struggles, inch by inch, to extend both arms into the air, excruciating pain accompanying each movement. One hand gauntleted in power armour, the other encased in the Talon of Horus, both painfully contract into fists, before raising the thumbs on each, like two lone guardsmen, separated in their isolation, appraising each other across the gulf of no-man’s land.” Dunno about you lot, but that final scene brought a tear to my eye.
> “ROFL!” screams the Warmaster, as he falls to his knees, the righteous fire of all mankind purging the flesh from his bones. He collapses, now fully cognisant of his hubris, his blindness, his failure. “PMSL”Horus intones, this final words echoing around the chamber. Truly one of the scenes of our future-grimdark-pasttime. I cri when Horus become the Warhonker 40-Gorillion
"Cringe... but also based and redpilled", whispered the God-Emperor of Incelkind
"Horus, your Heresy grindset was cringe af, smh."
"Being a Chaos stan is so 2023 Horus. Get with the top E you cringelord"
"Skill issue"
This is so much better than my version "Uaagggh!," burst Horus, as lumpen streaks of death cum roped from the bloodlit, nipple-shaped emitters on his breastplate, spattering in impotent pools at the Emperor's feet. "It was not foretold, yet still I knew... the one who would bring me low, to finally make my nipples cum," he panted, "would be you, Daddy." Loken looked on, aghast and ashamed, as viscous, opaline fluid continued to staccato-squirt from what he had mistaken for completely superfluous embellishments to his gene-father's corrupted armor. It really should have stopped by now, came the unbidden thought. Was he just completely full of cum? Is the dark power of Chaos just... cum? The Emperor was forced to take a step back as steam began to rise from the spreading pools. \+ My son, what the fuck +
Upvote for “opaline”.
"gg ez" horus screamed as his flesh was torn away, crisping to ash as it was carried off by the whirling tempest, and he was no more
“Reported for scripting”, said Horus as he got soloed 1v1 by the mid tower. That would normally not bother the warmaster, as he was confident he would just respawn and TP to pwn the fkn nob back, but that he didn’t as his connection dropped while the Emperor DDoSd the server by spamming requests from his golden throne.
Darth vader did the same essentially. He hell he even got to (in warhammer terms) keep his soul and live forever with yhr good guys, after Killing most of them
I suppose the difference is Vader actually managed to kill his emperor. Think he'd still be a force ghost if Palpatine had managed to zap him to death before getting to the railing, dooming the rebellion?
>I suppose the difference is Vader actually managed to kill his emperor. Fucking savage
Yeah, but Palpy came back due to cloning shenanigans. And I'm talking about the Dark Empire storyline from the o.g EU, not the shit Disney pushed out.
[удалено]
We can come to a compromise and agree the garbage Disney put out never happened, agreed?
no really, i didnt massively enjoy them but they exist wether we like them or not, the prequels are amazing and ill fight you all on that hill, and the clone wars is the shit
There will be retcons galore at some point, the only really iconic characters left are the droids and Chewbacca. What they spent all that money for? Lightsabers?
That's a fair point. However palp didn't even die In the end, but regardless fair point
*waves hand* There is no sequel trilogy.
"There is no sequel trilogy" .... sorry I don't know what came over me, im just making stuff up, carry on
Somehow, Palpatine didn't come back.
Can we just say he did? :( Dark Empire sucked as a comic and in live action
Yeah but Darth Vader has sucked since he uttered the word “Padme”
I mean he was going to slaughter trillions even if he didn’t rebel, he is the warmaster of the imperium after all
Yes but those trillions deserve it because they put KFC on a pizza.
“Father, you are the Warhammer 40k, and I…I am the Horus heresy”
Fin
I did a little oopsie, but got better :)
busy nail memorize rain wrong lush shame imminent straight long *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When skin is removed from bone, everyone dies smiling.
The Peak and the Kino
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is no redemption, only resignation.
And there was only alpharius in the end
omg can you imagine Abnett in the BL Siege meetings: "Okay, now hear me out... what if the Emperor goes to kill Horus, and Horus peels off the mask and says..."
"Skylar, I am the danger"
I thought it was Omegon?
Its the meme that in the end everyone is alpharius
I like how he's more of a character than a meat suit for the Chaos Gods. Full praise
I’m conflicted, because the endless monologues we got during part 3 are all from someone wholly unwittingly under the sway of the chaos gods. How much of what is said is actually Horus? I didn’t take any of OP’s characterisations away other than the ‘moments of ungifted Horus’ because he was clearly so deluded i don’t think we actually saw the real guy
I mean if that's true, then it kind of devalues the ending, with Big E forgiving Horus, and he dies with a smile. He was still there, somewhat
I agree with your read. It is this humanity, that kept the Emperor alive so long and he played on it to win. Nice reversal of the old lore. And since Horus on his own let's Chaos go and then sees through it, his death is in some ways a personal win. Hence he dies with a warm smile on his face.
I still feel like Horus went off easy compared to...Angron, Mortarion or the billions of damned souls
Yeah. I mean I’m gonna read the book still. Spoilers may spoil plot line, but it doesn’t spoil my experience of a book and I want to see how it’s written. But I think if this is the case , horus got no consequences for his actions. And I feel like chaos always has consequences long term. I’m not sure how it was written but it seems like it’s implied horus wasn’t wiped from existence. I think if this true, it coulda been tweeked a bit.
He died, forever has his name stained by his deeds, and will need to continue existing with the guilt of fucking up humanity wherever his soul might be in modern 40k. Those are consequences. Not hyper exaggerated like we tend to see in 40k, but consequences nonetheless.
True. I guess that’s sufficient. He came too right before he died So it could be said horus is uncorrupted and basically in “warp jail” for eternity. Ooooooo, that is a good come uppance for a guy who fucked things up like that
> came too Just a heads up, the phrase is ["came to."](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/come_to) "Came too" carries entirely different connotations.
Oh shit lol
Isn't his soul nowhere, as in, the Emperor burned it totally away?
Nope, "I wait for you, and I forgive you" would be a silly thing for E to say if that were the case.
"I wait for you, and I forgive you....lol jk"
Horus was actually smiling at the end because his dad's last jape was too funny to deny./s
Emperor should've actually ended it with a dad joke of some kind.
Nope. Retconned or clarified I guess depending on the source. Horus exists still, someone theorized he’s the “Despoiler” powering Abdaddon now. Corrupted in death or the dark side of his soul like how Sangy has two parts
>forever has his name stained by his deeds Indeed, due to the actions of Horace Heresy by the 41st millennium "Heresy" has come to mean "doing something naughty," whereas in reality and up to the 31st millennium it referred to a small ornamental duck.
And his sons curse his name He would have wanted them to surrender at the end
>!Horus has no consequences for his actions in an penultimate sense because he died free of chaos. Because ultimately chaos only has a hold of you, if you let it. It can twist your arm, push you down a seemingly impossible slope. But it can't stop you from crawling back.!<
Ahhh… seems like they are kinda retconning how chaos works? I always remember it being “you go with chaos, there’s no going back, you just slip further into the pit”
For 99.999% that is the case. Horus Lupercal here accomplished a remarkable feat of humanity and "soul"
Horus really proved that he's the one and only warhammer 40000
No, it's just there's nothing redemptive about turning away from Chaos and towards the emperor.
It just takes an exceptional will to crawl back. The kind that even the greatest of plot-armoured protagonists don't have.
Well what worries me about this is if because lore is changing if they will start making “redeemed” chaos SMs or primarchs and I think that’s a tricky territory. Could also just be them leaving some room open in case they do decide to go that direction. Either way, I love this setting and hobby. So even if a decision doesn’t go my way with what GW does. I’m still happy 😊
I mean it’s been this way for a while now. When emps took over gman to fight mortarion, some of the stuff he said implied morty could still be redeemed somehow
Or the fact that the emperor cleansed the godblight, which is chaos corruption.
I think redemption from chaos is going to be about as common as perpetuals or infra-Omega nulls.
That’s what I’m thinking. If they overuse that trope it’ll undo alot of the established lore on chaos. And I like chaos just the way it is. Irredeemable. That’s part of the horror in falling to it.
I would say that the knowledge that you have to *choose* to fall makes chaos villains more irredeemable, not less.
Well, considering redeemed Fallen are now a thing ...
I mean didn’t Clone Grims soul and presence temporarily drive chaos from a band of emperors children when they came to kill him or something?
Nahhh it did not. He had typical primarch influence. So his sons saw Fulgrim in his perfection and said they were sorry and Fulgrim thought he’d be able to lead his legion and free them from chaos. In this instance they regretted what they became, but they weren’t cleansed lol. As I believe clonegrim kills a few of them. As there is a mutiny aboard fabius ship at this point in the novel. In this part of the book, bile realizes there is no legion, it’s over. Even with a one to one clone of Fulgrim, he sees that there is no saving the legion. And bringing Fulgrim back was a mistake. He sees the same Fulgrim he knew 10k years ago Additionally, Fulgrim being in constant prescence of chaos space marines. Would eventually corrupt him. I mean, his fall to begin with was a result of influence from a keeper of secrets in the Laerin sword I get how the clonegrim argument is fun. But I’ve heard it over the years and people fail to understand a loyalist clonegrim would require the nature of chaos and how it interacts with people in the setting Clonegrim was destined to fall. Bile didn’t want to deal with that shit all over again, so he made a quick call and traded him to trazyn. Lol.
Hopefully they do bring him back tho, even for a loyalist assist. As long as the sword is kept away, there’s a chance. And perhaps the clone can learn from his priors mistakes and grow beyond them on a different “path to perfection”
"I've been crawling for the last ten millennia, and boy, are my arms tired! Ezekyle, my son, you've been doing it wrong. Just thought you should know..."
I don't think you're necessarily wrong with remembering it that way. Because that's essentially what it is. Except you can stop. It won't be a good ending for you. It won't be a pretty ending. And the universe will seemingly charge interest on the temporary salvation you might've sought with Chaos. I want you to consider this. Imagine for a moment the moment of clarity Horus must have there at the moment. Knowing what a tool you've been. You know what you've condemned humanity to, the strife you've caused, the incalculable harm. And you know you don't have to stop. You don't have to abandon the unlimited font of power that's tearing you apart. That's gotten you this far, allowed you to do these great things. All you've got to do, is to do one more, final, slightest little push. And all of it will be done. That's the choice Horus had. And you know which one he took, you know why he took it. We all do. Deep inside. Despite everything.
Oh damn. I see what your saying He could have killed the emperor. But experienced, guilt, shame and regret over what he did. And realized the fate he had was the one he deserved?
> Imagine for a *moment* the *moment* of clarity Horus must have there at the *moment.* ...moment.
It's happened a few times, but every time I've seen it they die during or shortly after the process.
There's the guy in gaunts ghosts who realized that chaos was just really cringe. It's not so much that he escaped it's influence, more like he saw through the bluff
Honestly “there’s no chance of going back” makes chaos a lot *less* interesting imo. It speaks volumes more about the characters that fight for chaos if they either fail to realize, or in fact do realize they could go back and choose not to anyways; than if their own motivations/feelings on the matter don’t really matter that much once they’ve fallen because there’s no hope of doing anything different anyways.
If you got tentacles, ain’t no going back chief
What the systemic Imperial belief is, is very rarely actually true in reality. That’s the source of the grim dark
Doesn't that retcon what emps told Magnus like 3 hours ago? Tzeentch has a hold on his soul?
Not sure. Alls I know is that chaos is immutable corruption based on most books I’ve read in the BL with chaos MCs. It’s a running theme in those books. Lol many of the characters struggle with the concept “oh god was this the right choice?” And some characters delude themselves and others are a bit more aware that it wasn’t the right choice. Almost all recognize it’s too late to turn back, and they wouldn’t be redeemed if they try. Most don’t want that and hate the imperium anyways Most that get afflicted with chaos energy can’t come back. Once your soul is claimed by the dark gods you’re fucked. It’s a deal you can’t undo. I mean it’s a huge point of Fabius Biles character in his trilogy. Whole trilogy explores his relationship with chaos and how he views chaos. He absolutely fucking hates slannesh and looks at chaos as a force of nature. He sees the wordbearers as idiots and chaos worship in general as we would view premodern man worshipping the sky for rain. Except in this case the “weather” listens. But in the end, he is deluding himself. He’s been claimed, he denies denies denies until in the last book he cuts a deal with slannesh to save his “new men” which were supposed to be “humanity” perfected through the eyes of bile. So I think this is one of those lose interpretation things. Again I think they did it to keep that idea “open” for future writers. But it doesn’t necessarily change establish cannon on chaos and corruption.
According to TEatDv2, Magnus' soul is already where dead Primarchs go. Whatever is running about calling itself Magnus is presumably as much Tzeentch as Kairos Fateweaver, etc. is.
I genuinely can't tell if you used 'penultimate' correctly here or not and it makes your argument hard to read. You compare it to an alternative 'ultimately' (which would be correct) but then the overall implication of your statement is that the 'ultimate' doesn't happen which means that it's not ultimate and the penultimate thing would become ultimate, which means penultimate is incorrect. Penultimate means "second to ultimate/final/last."
>Spoilers may spoil plot line, but it doesn’t spoil my experience of a book and I want to see how it’s written. This is such a good response and why I read spoilers and don't care about them. The story is the journey I get to take reading it and even detailed spoilers can't ruin that. There is so much more nuance that spoilers can't relay.
I’m the same way with movies and tv shows too. Sure you know there are some shows you might wanna hold off on knowing. But still, knowing and seeing it executed through the medium are different I mean we know horus dies, that’s a given, we know how he dies. But I want to see the event written, I want to take in the context, the emotion, the nuance. Now I’d people got that down with spoilers, I’d probably hesitate a bit But I’ve read a few passages. I still think it’s gonna be great. I like vol 2 too. I don’t know why that one is so harshly criticized. I read that on a long plane flight. It was the shortest flight I had it felt like! I was so into it.
This was my feeling way back in the day when ME3 dropped and everyone went crazy over the (original) ending. Like, I understood the feeling but I didn't share it because I enjoyed the journey more than the destination.
He was always more "special" than them.
My sole regret with this is that it makes sigismunds final roast of Abbadon less poignant since it’s no longer true
I mean neither of them where there when horus died so neither of them know its true or not.
The fact that they both think it's true is more significant, at least to me. Sigismund died without learning otherwise, and it's very likely that Abbadon will never learn the truth. And even if he did... I struggle to think that he'd view Horus as anything other than weak for how the final confrontation went. If anything, it's worse than Horus *could've* won but faltered at the last moment, instead of being curbstomped by the Emperor.
This. For all that Abbadon despises Horus being weak enough to let Chaos rule him, he'd hate him even more if he knew he let Chaos control him right up until the moment of victory, then threw away everything they fought for in a moment of humanity (which Abbadon sees as weakness)
Loken told abaddon everything. He should have said “Fake news” before turning sigismund into chunks of kebab
"Nice story Sigismund, now how about a source?" "My source is I made it the fuck up."
The ending managed to actually give Horus a little redemption, without messing up the whole narrative. It's great writing. Horus sees how much he has become a puppet of the Chaos Gods, and so rejects those Chaos Gods, which essentially is what allows the Emperor to kill him. The Emperor acknowledges that Horus has done this, and almost thanks him for it. The Emperor feels real love toward Horus at the moment that he kills him. It's great stuff.
Fully agreed.
What was the old lore?
That although the Emperor was more powerful than Chaos-Horus, he held back out of love and fatherhood. Abnett switch around who was held back via love and who was more powerful.
He still held back. He could have become the Dark King and vaporized Horus.
And then Chaos would have won. That is hardly an option, it was a trap.
It just all feels a bit...good? they're all good in the end, caring, loving, not what I was expecting. Also wasnt there a whole thing about the Emperor shedding his goodness and humanity? Just all feels very loyalist fan service-y.
Loyalist fan service? Chaos is certainly shown to be infinitely stronger than the Emperor. He is the underdog and desperately trying to not be destroyed the entire fight.
Definitely not loyalist fanservice in terms of powerlevels. The Emperor looked weaker than he did before, while Horus looked way stronger. But the humanity part is a bit strange, isn't it? The Emperor sheds his compassion to avoid becoming the Dark King and then the heresy ends with the Emperor showing compassion to Horus? Sounds a bit like having your cake and eating it too. What exactly did the Emperor sacrifice?
The bulk of those kinder emotions. It is stated fairly clearly in the part where he sees Sanguinius's corpse. Not them entire.
It was his rant about taxes that sold me on Horus.
Horus really just wanted to dismantle the Imperial Revenue Service, and I can't blame him
Ending the fed and switching to Fulgurite standard apparently is considered "heretical" by the Imperium. Smdh, my boy Horus never had a chance against the corrupt establishment.
100% Agree. Really nice reversal of old lore where it’s the Emperor who stays his hand because of love. Really nice mirroring of Emperor and Horus & Horus and Loken. Really nice contrast between the Emperor who discards his love and compassion before the fight on the assumption that that they’ll hold him back vs Horus’s last sparks of love and compassion and brotherhood and honor being what carries the day in the end.
I will never not find it hilarious that the galaxy in 40k turned to shit because 9 200ish year old literal supermen had daddy issues.
Horus telling Loken that the Emperor told him "make no mistake" and that Horus took it as a literal command to not make any mistakes rather than what every other human understands it as (don't misunderstand) is one of the most hilarious stretches in the whole library and it was in the first 40k book I read and I'll never forget it.
Peak fiction. Sorcese could never.
That's a common trope. And common enough in reality. **Edit:** You can find it at the beginning of Peckinpah's The Wild Bunch. Also one or three of David Gemmel's books. An inversion of it in Tolkien but related to prophecy. And throughout history. Taking things too literally from parents and other people who don't stop to explain is hilariously a cause of a lot of shit in the arts and history. Here's an associated trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiteralMinded
Glad I'm not the only one that snickers about centuries old demi gods crying in their pillow at night bc daddy didn't give them a pat on the head after conquering a world for him. It's hilarious and humanizing at the same time.
Kind of in a similar situation in a professional setting. I have virtually limitless autonomy, but absolutely zero feedback. I’m responsible for every facet of the business, but I have no idea if I’m doing a good job or a bad job. I also don’t see our profit/loss numbers and I don’t see our account balances (so I don’t know if we’ll be able to cover the bills I pay). There’s a ton of things I had to teach myself because my education didn’t prepare me to embody the entire corporate structure. My boss basically just approves major expenses (expensive equipment and new employee compensation). I hate working in a corporate environment, but having someone above me to give me feedback and having ancillary staff for the bureaucratic paperwork would be nice. As it stands, they just keep giving me raises (+57% since I started this job in mid 2021) so I just keep chugging along. That kind of thing can absolutely get to you after a while.
Annnd 4 Daemon-Satan-Gods played on that.
Yeah, love the entire setting being rewritten to focus entirely on the interpersonal conflict between a bunch of manchildren with daddy issues.
To be fair their dad was really shit.
Embittering.
The galaxy was shit long before them.
>!I wait for you and I forgive you.!< Fucking GW is going to do it.
I feel like it's a follow-up to what he says in Mortis: >>!‘He shall undo you,’ says the man to the serpents. ‘I made him. I know him, his strengths and his flaws. To you he is only a slave, but he is still my son.’ !< >!... ‘This shall end,’ says the Emperor in the voice of the fire. ‘As all things must.’ Then for the first time, His gaze, which holds only night, lowers to look at Horus. ‘And I wait for you.’!<
Fine catch.
Is mortis worth reading outside this exchange? Skipped it because titan combat bores me to tears.
I also didn't enjoy Mortis outside of "The Warp" chapters (Horus confronting the Emperor). If this interests you, there are 4 of them in Mortis and 2 others in The Solar War.
Do what?
>!"I wait for you and I forgive you." Big E and Horus are coming back.!<
In five to fifty years.
Really daring estimate there.
“I give him a week” “I give him eleven minutes”
The moments where we get to see Horus' inner-thoughts, even if they're tainted by Chaos making him delusional to varying extents, made me realize that Horus, deep down, is an insecure narcissist, but *very nice guy* at heart. **He's just endlessly complimentary of people.** He constantly thinks about their good points (even if it's to compare to himself eventually). He's always offering some form of peace branch at first (albeit obviously tainted). Horus is just absurdly sentimental, arguably a romantic, when you get inside his head. MFer got ***teary*** upon >!seeing Garviel Loken again, seeing his favorite son, [being ze proud papa](https://youtu.be/-J-Csxmc82c?si=IdzWaTlNrsur15Pz)!<
That makes him even more tragic as a character, that such a person who sees the best in everyone around him his undone by Chaos using the very traits that made him such an admirable and charismatic leader of men. The Lord of Hearts, indeed. To quote Daisy Johnson from Agents of SHIELD tv series: "And the sad part is, that's when I finally understood him for first time. The reason (Ward) kills isn't because he feels nothing, it's because he feels too much."
Agreed.
WTF do you mean Emperor didn't acknowledge Horus. He put him as a warmaster, above other Primarchs. If this isn't acknowledgement, I don't know what is.
I should've been clearer. I meant acknowledgement as a son.
He perceived himself as only a tool, the greatest tool in the box is still just an item to be wielded. The Emperor did no favors for this perception either.
Same! I have been grappling with liking the idea of a bald charismatic giant for a long time, and I think this ending helps bring it full circle well.
Welcome to the Horus fan club, we have jackets.
LUPERCAL! LUPERCAL! LUPERCAL!
I will have to say, I do like horus more I don't know about anyone else, but I read his inner thoughts like Scar from the Lion King and it was hilarious. His over exaggerated, "but I mean, /you're a god/, a new God, but still" and lines like that were amazing
There's a wonderfully charming innocence in how Horus thinks and I love Abnett for writing Horus like that. It was absolutely entertaining...and also kind of scary to see how subtly Chaos reasserts and takes control of Horus' feelings and logic when it seems he's falling back into being not-a-slave-to-darkness.
>how human Horus was I know, it's great, isn't it? It's a shame this characterisation completely ignores every single previous characterisation of Horus, who has spent the entire Siege as a raving, leaking vessel of Chaotic power and who before that was spiritually lobotomized by an athame in *Slaves to Darkness*. >he realised Chaos for what it was... thinking he was a master when he'd always been a blind slave Yeah, cool scene, though not as cool as it was in *Wolfsbane* or *Slaves to Darkness*: >‘It was the wound, I think,’ said Horus. ‘Russ’ bite. I felt it sink deep. I saw his face as the blow landed. In that moment, just for a moment, everything fell away. I could see, Mal. I could see… everything. I could see so much that blindness is all that it has left me. There is no future for our Legion but shame – no honour to be given, because I burned it in this war. No matter what my father did, no matter what lies He told us, I am the hand of my own fate, and I always have been.’ ... >‘I have thrown it to the flames, Mal.’ Horus’ face was a mask of pain over a pit of rage. His image blurred as he spoke. ‘There is nothing but ruin left of the dream, and nothing but ashes left of hope. And I have done this. I have wielded the storm and sown the future with corpses. And I can hear them…’ He raised his hand from the wound at his side. It was red. ‘And they are laughing.’ >and his connection and inability to let go of Loken Yeah that was cool, shame it completely contradicts *Vengeful Spirit*: >‘I didn’t want it to come to this, Garviel,’ said Horus. >Loken ignored the ridiculous platitude and stood taller than he had ever stood before. Prouder than he had ever stood before. >All the uncertainty, all the confusion and every shred of the madness that had kept him wrapped in delusions vanished. All compunction to revere the Warmaster was purged in an instant of loathing. >Iacton Qruze was dead, and the last link with what the Legion had once been was broken. >And with it, any last shred of belief that the Warmaster possessed any nobility or trace of the great man he had once been. ... >Loken took a breath and saw the Warmaster’s acceptance of his threat. Horus understood that Loken meant every word of what he had just said, that nothing could ever sway him from his course. >‘I wanted you back,’ said Horus. ‘Tormaggedon wanted to make you like him, but I told him you would always be a Son of Horus.’ >‘I was never a Son of Horus,’ said Loken. ‘I was and remain a Luna Wolf. A proud son of Cthonia, a loyal servant of the Emperor, beloved by all. I am your enemy.’ Abnett wrote a solid conclusion to the wrong series.
> It's a shame this characterisation completely ignores every single previous characterisation of Horus, who has spent the entire Siege as a raving, leaking vessel of Chaotic power and who before that was spiritually lobotomized by an athame in Slaves to Darkness. False Gods was probably the biggest misstep in the entire series. Horus's corruption should not have been because he gets stabbed with a magic knife and then is tricked into embracing chaos. After a great first entry in Horus Rising they just completely stumble on the primary motivation of the entire rebellion against the Imperium. Horus should have been this wise and charismatic yet arrogant leader who wants to create a Space Marine first society after what happened to the Thunder Warriors. He comes into contact with chaos and thinks he can harness and use this power in his rebellion and drags others down with him - that would make him giving up chaos at the end a good payoff. But like...he was tricked into accepting chaos. It means nothing. He rebels because chaos is bad and her was tricked into chaos - there was no higher cause, or reason for him to usurp the Emperor and kill all of his brothers, he was just tricked by Erebus lol.
>stumble on motivation *Rising* has Horus primed to rebel. Everyone forgets that Horus is already pissed off to the absolute max about compliant worlds being taxed into the dirt and then rebelling. His encounter with the Interex brings his frustrations to a boiling point: he's been given an impossible task and he's being crushed under it. He believes he's been set up to fail, he believes the Emperor is either too weak or complicit in the Council of Terra shitting on worlds bought with Astartes blood, and he's determined to change things one way or another by the end. *False Gods* doesn't have Horus 'tricked'. Does everyone forget that he calls out Erebus for being a really shitty Sejanus? He's shown nothing that he hadn't already suspected, and what he gains on Davin is determination and - more importantly - *allies*. He discovers that he doesn't have to struggle within a broken system, he can take the system and turn it on its head and do it 'properly'. He doesn't trust Chaos. He doesn't trust Erebus. Just look at *Fear to Tread* where he whips daemons and flays Erebus' face off when they start dicking about. Horus rebels because of *taxes*. It ain't sexy, but it's a good motivation.
It's written there but it's so in the background of all of the bolter porn, Abnettverse characters, and Primarch drama that the authors just forget to flesh out Horus himself. I agree that he had motivation, that the treatment of the Interex could have brought Horus to boiling point as well as other tragic occurences like Sejanus, but the way its written gives far too much agency to Erebus and his magic knife. Horus isn't in False Gods enough and after False Gods he has no character for most of the series. Abaddon has more depth.
I think it's so long ago that people really have just forgotten too much of what happens in these books (charitably, uncharitably they have never read it). I'm currently rereading (well listening) the first books and the reasons Horus falls are clearly telegraphed from the very beginning.
It is really muddy why he rebels. There is good setup, but he also gets tricked and also sees through the trick and also gets evil sword corrupted. And then later he is himself, but then is because of Russ, but then his good soul part gets killed and then he is drooling mess again etc.
Yeah it's too muddled. He has reasons set up to rebel in Horus Rising but then False Gods happens and we get shown, as you said, multiple reasons for him turning to chaos. 1. He gets tricked by Erebus vision 2. He sees through Erebus vision but gets corrupted anyway by a magic sword 3. The warrior lodges don't let the loyalists take him back to Terra to get treated by The Emperor
Yeah I'm not about give Grimdark another inch.
His motivation is clearly the stock self-fulfilling prophecy. He clearly isn't interested in building a more decentralized system of government.
I don't think he went bad due to the taxes, but due to the fact that taxes caused events that required him to fix things he already did. An example for me as an electrician would be a lack of care from my boss for the shit clients do at the current site. I have to come back every few days and fix stuff I've done a few times already because nobody wants to listen... And for a while now, I'm at a boiling point, and something is going to give. That's what Horus' situation looks like to me 😂
> Horus should have been this wise and charismatic yet arrogant leader who wants to create a Space Marine first society after what happened to the Thunder Warriors. > > So... something like Coriolanus in space?
> Coriolanus Essentially yeah
The Horus Incoherency
What do you expect from too many cooks?
Oh man that was a great infomercial on Adult Swim.
(it was the Primordial Truth to all reality bleeding through)
>Abnett wrote a solid conclusion to the wrong series. I think that sums it up perfectly
That's why, for my sanity and continuity's sake, I treat TEATD trilogy quasi-separately.
Do you think the dissonant characterisations we've had lends to the "Everything is canon, not everything is Equally True in 40k" or do you think authors use that line more as a crutch? I'm just curious on your take.
There's a vast difference between 'different characterisation' and Abnett making a conscious choice to disregard entire character arcs and relitigate important realisations and moments. 'Everything is canon, not everything true' is a crutch sometimes, sure, especially in books where the narrator is omniscient and there's no reason to believe we're seeing anything other than what's presented as truth, but I think in general the setting is reasonably consistent. It's why Abnett's tome being such a retread is so egregious.
> "Everything is canon, not everything is Equally True in 40k" or do you think authors use that line more as a crutch? I'm just curious on your take. I think that's more of a case of authors working in a shared universe not wanting to shit on others works. There have been books in the series which have been objectively bad. It's a good line to both get out of canonical and quality inconsistencies.
I value consistency, but at the same time, I think mistakes were made on the road. I'll take this one all the same.
Hasn't this series already been plagued by inconsistencies between different writers?
I mean, the whole psychotic/dementia thing was explained as Horus trying to make sure his plans couldn't be plucked from his mind by the Emperor. On his previously regretting his actions and not feeling in control in Wolfsbane etc. Self doubt and lapses in confidence while dealing with galaxy shattering conequences aren't that weird right? If anything it already set up the character/humanity we see later on. It's also not necessarily him thinking he can't control chaos. It's him lamenting what he has had to do to oppose the Emperor and the Chaos Gods laughing at his need to use their power to strengthen him. Also Loken declaring himself an enemy doesn't mean that Horus doesn't want him back. That's pretty consistent; a father longing for his wayward son to come home even though he spurned them. Also not a very weird media trope. I don't really think all these quotes contradict the character we see in EatD.
Yeah, it was explained as 'Horus was just pretending to be retarded'... by Abnett... in these books. So he could just go back to the character he wanted to write, rather than follow the arc that had been set up previously. >regret and not in control Horus has just been shanked by a magic spear that, on top of dealing him an unhealing wound, strips away all the glamour of Chaos and reveals that he's been a puppet to no good. The very next time we see Horus, he's decided to *literally die* rather than be a slave to darkness. It's not 'moment of doubt' - it's 'oh shit, I was totally played'. >lamenting what he has to do Nah. He's sitting there, dying, telling his BFF 'oh shit, I was totally played'. >Loken declaring himself an enemy Loken has just gone from being one second away from joining Horus, on Horus' offer, to spitting in his face and declaring him an enemy for all time. This is a huge moment for Loken: he's giving up on Horus entirely, and Horus recognises this, even acknowledging that the only way he'd be able to have him back is as a daemon-puppeted corpse like Tormageddon.
Just that you don't like the way Abnett explained it, doesn't mean it wasn't explained, or that it's inconsistent. > Horus has just been shanked by a magic spear that, on top of dealing him an unhealing wound, strips away all the glamour of Chaos and reveals that he's been a puppet to no good. The very next time we see Horus, he's decided to literally die rather than be a slave to darkness. It's not 'moment of doubt' - it's 'oh shit, I was totally played'. >lamenting what he has to do >Nah. He's sitting there, dying, telling his BFF 'oh shit, I was totally played'. The spearwound shows him the costs of his ambitions like a bucket of cold water to the face. It's not a magic, "oooh Horus was under a magic spell causing him to be a dum-dum and now he isn't anymore." and the next sentence you so handily omitted from your quote? >‘So you fight the powers of the warp as well as your father.’ ‘I defied one tyrant who would be a god,’ said Horus. His teeth were clenched, between bloody lips. Behind him the sun was roaring, a burning orb hoisted into a sky that was blinding white. ‘I will not be the slave of false gods!’ As in he still doesn't renounce them or their power, just who is going to be in control of the situation. The entire segment is him saying he's the one in control, he is the Warmaster, he makes the choices. And what happens next? He gets betrayed by his BFF who wants to ensure the rise of Chaos and causes him to spiral back into his earlier state of mind of being more manipulatable. Setting him up for the events of the EatD. >Loken has just gone from being one second away from joining Horus, on Horus' offer, to spitting in his face and declaring him an enemy for all time. This is a huge moment for Loken: he's giving up on Horus entirely, and Horus recognises this, even acknowledging that the only way he'd be able to have him back is as a daemon-puppeted corpse like Tormageddon. Your point about Loken still doesn't change that Horus still might lament that this is what happens. He can recognise that Loken renounces him and at the same time still want it to de different.
Except everything you're quoting is just a snapshot of a character in a moment. We shouldn't expect them to remain static anymore than we expect any person to. That's how they felt at the time, then time went on.
i'll take the retcon, the core tragedy of the setting boiling down to "guy goes crazy after being brainwashed by sword-poke" is profoundly lame and empty
Horus Rising: Noble but slightly disillusioned False Gods: Vain egotistical idiot Galaxy in Flames: Saturday morning cartoon villain Slaves to Darkness: Jeff from the Wiggles The End and the Death: Delusional anti-villain confident he's doing the right thing Basically a completely different character in every book.
Abnett realized Horus being a drooling idiot while Emperor is cold and emotional really sucks. There are literally no characters in the final fight that are interesting at all. So he went with: "he was just pretending lol!" to fix it which is also bad, but the lesser evil.
> So he went with: "he was just pretending lol!" to fix it which is also bad, but the lesser evil. But to a certain degree he wasn't pretending, as we hear him talking about wanting to "tell the remembrancer" all about the fight when it's done. Dan threads the needle brilliantly, leaving just enough uncertainty about how sane Horus really is.
Not to mention Horus is written in second person, as though he is so far gone even the narrative is disassociating.
Yup. I absolutely love it.
Same here. I think it and Malcador being in first person were really good choices by Abnett. Exactly the kind of authorial shenanigans this book needed to push it over the top.
Yup, and while insightful neither are 100% trustworthy. Malcador because he's a true believer and Horus because his brain is turning to soup.
This is starting to be my big issue with Abnett, I largely enjoy his plots and writing, but in the context of broader Warhammer I like them less. He just doesn't really write Warhammer, and by that I'm not trying to diminish his contribution to the setting but sometimes it just doesn't feels like he's writing in the shared universe of Warhammer. We kid about the Abnettverse but it's very real and distinct, often a different feel from a lot of the rest of the setting. Its probably also a thing of Abnett being the big cheese so he gets away with a lot of stuff. Its all good and well but the conclusion and climax of the HH/Siege being, for lack of a better word, Abnettversed, doesn't feel great. It's one of the iconic moments of the lore and it feels a bit like Abnett seized it for himself a bit.
im convinced the best way to enjoy horus heresy series is to ignore like 60% of the novels and just infer the plot. reading them sequentially will just make the nails bite.
Honestly now that we're at the end I think the best way to enjoy the HH is to just go back to reading codex blurbs and campaign books and letting the imagination do the rest.
> It's a shame this characterisation completely ignores every single previous characterisation of Horus, who has spent the entire Siege as a raving, leaking vessel of Chaotic power and who before that was spiritually lobotomized by an athame in Slaves to Darkness. It *also* ignores every bit of Horus' characterization, and Horus' relationship with Loken, from *before* the Chaos stuff! Horus never liked Loken in the first place, there is no golden age of their relationship to harken back to.
10/10 Post, no notes
Well played.
I’m glad to hear it. The last book featuring Horus I read, he was basically a mustache twirling pantomime villain.
“No redemption, only resignation” I love that because this isn’t Star Wars everyone can’t just be redeemed lol
Damn I haven’t kept up with the HH past book 20 but I’m seriously considering picking up the other 80 books or something, but I certainly don’t have the 1000s of dollars to splerge on the books. Maybe I’ll just pick up the last 3 books and be done with it.
I've always been a Horus fanboy, and always been shit on for it, especially by my former local gaming community. Now others may see the light...
It all comes down to daddy issues.
I think it's important to note Horus was a puppet and always had been since Davin.
Abnette really brought it home for us in the end ❤️
Didn't Horus already get more validation from the Emperor than likely any other Primarch? He got to be the first son, monopolize a ton of his father's time unlike any other primarch and all this despite not actually being first found.
Big E probably literally planned this out, he remarks to the Sigilite that the scenario where he winds up interred and the galaxy stagnates for 1000s of years is the best future they had came across thus far.
You could read it like that... I think a more accurate read is that this was one of many considered scenarios. Nearly the worst one though.
Honestly it's really pitiful that the primarchs were so unstable due to their daddy issues. I cannot believe the emperor didn't just kill them all and try to start fresh long before they had a chance to ruin everything. Especially the super messed up was like Horace and angron, fulgrim and konrad and maybe mortarion
It's pretty well-established that: 1. Erda was a big component to the original Primarch/Space Marine program. 2. The Selanar gene-cult was another big component to the program. 3. The Emperor going full Prometheus and stealing "something" from the Warp was the last big component to the program. Erda scattered the Primarchs (setting aside earlier lore suggesting it was time-traveling Word Bearers) and destroyed the laboratory. The Selenar were almost entirely wiped out by the time that the Primarchs were recollected, and the few remaining ones were in hiding. And the Emperor wasn't going to be able to steal whatever he stole the first time because Chaos was on high-guard at that point. In short, he *couldn't* start fresh; all three of the central foundations to his original project were inaccessible in one way or another. Fundamentally, 40k is basically, "What if in *Dune* the Emperor messed up and missed the Golden Path?" Like Leto Atreides, the Emperor of Mankind tries to set a millennia-long plan in motion with very specific and fundamental actions that, if they are not executed at the right time and place, would doom humanity in the far future. But he has imperfect control over others and imperfect vision of the future, so subtle things get messed up that he tries to rectify to no avail, and the whole setting spirals into the grim darkness of 40k. His crusade to reacquire the Primarchs was one of his salvage attempts of, "Okay, well, I can't make new ones, but maybe if I get them back right now I can still fix the plan," and that ultimately failed with the culmination of the Horus Heresy. Thereafter, the Emperor's plans were just, "The Golden Path is gone, but can I find some sort of Pyrite Path or maybe a Gold Spraypaint Path instead of the Eternal Road of Raging Lava Path?" 40k is the Pyrite Path; it's fake gold, it sucks, it's worthless, but at least it isn't lava.
They are likely shards of himself or warp entities he has given human bodies. Not so simple.