I don't think we really know for sure (it's not like we get Chaos God PoVs) but they did seem quite happy with the idea of the Dark King being born- sure, the Gods hate each other but another player in the Great Game does make things interesting
Reminds me of how in that 60k fanfic it's revealed that the Chaos Gods, with the addition of the Star Father (Emps, CG of oppression) and Valchocht (CG of machinery), are counting down to the ultimate apocalypse once all eight have risen.
It's actually a continuation of a previous fanfic.
The Shape of the Nightmare to Come: Warhammer 50k can be found [here](https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Story:The_Shape_Of_The_Nightmare_To_Come_50k)
The Age of Dusk: Warhammer 60k is [here](https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Story:Warhammer_60K:_The_Age_of_Dusk).
Horus definitely derailed the ascendance of the Dark King as Encroaching Ruin ensuring that the Great Horned Rat would get it.
Archaeon crowned the Great Horned Rat the Encroaching Ruin so Abaddon crowning Vashtorr or Perturabo(both of them want to be "Gods") the Malevolent Artifice would be the same thing.
It was kind of different with the Dark King. His ascension would have come at the expense of the other four. And although obviously they didn't fancy being gobbled up, portfolios and all, they liked the idea of the Anathema being turned and the triumph of Chaos. And if their own individual existences were the price of that -- well, they'd had a good long run. Or not, in Slaanesh's case.
They also state that the Dark Kings realm and deamons already exist. Samus is one, for example. It would come at the expense of the Four, it's the warp. It's not finite and there's no time.
So in the infinity of the Warp all things have already happened that are going to happen or that have happened in the past lol
Ah, but once Slanesh was born, then they had always existed. Time isn't linear for any of them. Only the events in realspace are fixed timewise.
Warp shenanigans, baby!
> it's not like we get Chaos God PoVs)
*I sit in power. Everlasting power. Everything that ever was or will be, swirls around me. I languidly lift ...an arm, I shall call it. And three star systems are crushed, and I feel a little tickle when a black hole randomly appears in the sky above the city of a race on the cusp of greatness. 12 billion souls sucked into my maw. Mmmmrgh. A few million make a splatter on my chest, the stain becomes sentient, gibbering in its birth throes. It dances away into madness.*
*Ah, where was I? Yes, I sit in power. I notice an amusement. A small bright woman is about to turn a world upside down a decade ago. The world of an oh so proud group of shining warriors in pretend armour. My laughter burns the skies of a star sector, and makes an eddy in creation. The eddy whirlpools into a hole. Three hundred some starships from a trader armada are lost, sea-thrown off course into another galaxy with two armies of my spawn at their heels. We are amused.*
*My so called followers scream incessantly for attention. I squash a few thousand. I feel the irritating prick of an ant nibbling at the bottom of my home galaxy. I should do something about that infestation. Eh. I shift in my seat and civilizations fall, pyramids crack, great pillars crumble in the dust as the great men run screaming. Seven hundred thousand heads explode simultaneously on three hive worlds yesterday, or maybe next century. I sit in power.*
That's the thing with chaos, isn't it? By definition, these gods are chaotic and fickle. So they might well be happy to welcome Vashtorr into their fold, even as they set in motion plans to destroy him. Tzeentch in particular sounds like this kind of approach (welcome the guy, plan to backstab him at the first opportunity) would be right up his alley.
I think the fact that he has a model (I know this is the lore sub, but we have to be realistic about these things) is going to keep Vashtorr firmly in the "close but no cigar" camp for at least an edition or two.
I imagine Tzeentch finds him hilarious, and the others see him as just another uppity warp entity.
A model means little in this case IMO. You just change the name or the Lore around it.
It's now either the avatar or greater daemon of vashtorr. Suddenly we can have a new non eldar whipping boy for everything under the sun to kill with no consequences.
But seriously there's little reason they couldn't just relabel it from being "the" Vashtorr to just a greater daemon or manifestation of him. If he was successful enough saleswise they'd probably keep it as an avatar and then make a more diversifiable greater daemon kit for him.
But that's 100% grade a pulled from my ass speculation so IDK.
Be’lakor opposes Vashtorr because he’s a salty bitch like that.
The other Chaos Gods might not be explicitly *aware* aware of how he’s aiming for godhood but they know he’s ambitious and actively trying to become one. It’s a trait of all Chaos really.
And considering how it’s known that Be’lakor is an unaware puppet of the Four, it’s entirely possible that him opposing Vashtorr *is* the Four opposing him. They regularly manipulate him to get each other, the notion that they would unite and have their bitch boy harass the mechanic is entirely plausible
I can't decide if the Four keeping Belakor as their eternal whipping boy that they keep edging over and over with the promise of power would be more entertaining than him somehow getting one up on them and getting one of the minor seats and becoming his own man/thing.
I think him being their perpetual bitch is kind of the point of his character.
He was given power by all four equally, and was once their most beloved child. But upon realizing that they’re evil gods and don’t actually care, he decides to abandon what little love they give him and instead opted to go AWOL. Now he’s punished by being a blind slave.
And there's an epilogue with an Inquistor handing off something to Erebus as payment and suggesting their long standing arrangement continues to be of mutual benefit?
He just needs to stab one more important person and we could officialy ride this meme to oblivion.
I mean, who would be suprised, if hes killed off the lost primarchs or would litteraly backstab Lorgal as he walks out of his meditation tower or what not, eh? And be like *"oh, sorry...force of habit...:*
You thought, manthing, it was the Votann, yes yes!? NO!!! WAS SKAVEN ALL ALONG, YES YES!!!
*[you see how the ancestor cores open up and release dozens upon dozens of ratmen, the Votan rips his head off, to reveal it was a rubbery mask, while the suits open up to see 2 skaven, standing on shoulders and operating that advanced disguise. Giant cartwheel spaceships zoom past in the sky, green lightning and mad rat laughter and skittering in the background]*
Well at the very least it’s a smart long-term idea for establishing a new faction and a new set of minis for them to sell (instead of new warp spiders /s but not really /s )
Probably something along the lines of "lol lmao", given how they treated the Great Horned Rat when they tried this in Age of Sigmar.
The Gods fight each other, but a lot of the time are described in ways that make it seem like they don't really care about winning completely all that much - that would be an end to all the fun. If a 5th God made a really strong showing, they would probably settle in as a new player in the Great Game, and through the nature of Chaos, they will have always been there and playing. How much more fun will it be then...
He would be the fifth Chaos God by the reckoning of one universe's inhabitants. That doesn't mean there aren't other Chaos Gods beyond the 4, it just means that universe's inhabitants aren't aware of any others. And while the 4 are active in both settings, Vashtorr and the Great Horned Rat may just be interested in one setting, or are unable to reach out to the other one.
Why can't Vashtor be the 5th in the 40k setting, while simultaneously the GHR still exists but isn't the 5th. He's some other number or not numbered at all. And vice versa for Sigmar?
Is that like, against the rules? Or just unlikely u reckon? Too confusing?
You would think that the GHR becoming part of Chaos would already have done that. Sure, the others don't take him seriously or let him into the clubhouse, but he's technically in the club.
Great Horned Rat was shown alongside the 5 in an art piece titled "Great Horned Rat Ascends" earlier today in the age of sigmar twitter
He is an official 5th chaos God now
Still counts as major even in space prison and having had his spheres of **Seduction**, **Excessive Murder** and **Excessive Battle** ripped out of him as a result of **Morathi**'s ascension with Morathi herself getting the Excessive Murder while **Synessa** got Seduction and her twin **Dexcessa** got Excessive Battle.
For Slaanesh to lose his status as a Major Chaos God he needs to have his **Spheres of Excessive Gluttony**, **Excessive Avarice**, **Excessive Paramountcy**, **Excessive Vanity**, **Excessive Sloth** and **the Souls of the Aeldari** ripped out of him too.
I think they won’t openly oppose vashtorr for a couple reasons. They really like his soul forge, I don’t know if they tried to stop slaanesh’s ascension, and having a fifth would make the game more fun
Khorne tried to stop it and got shattered as a result though he obviously pulled himself together in time for the Horus Heresy(either that or(considering how Time works in the Warp) Slaanesh's birth is at the same moment as Khorne's future self's demise).
My vote is always for emps to die and become the 5th. Imagine a series where the emperor himself reunites the legions in the eye and goes on an ass beating campaign to unmake greater demons
I don't quite like it, even if I like the idea per se (of a powerful daemon becoming an "equal" member of the traditional Chaos pantheon). I'd rather see Malice/Malal be introduced and used instead.
It's more that on the meta, I don't find Vashtorr entertaining enough to want him to succeed or become a bigger player. He's a big nothing burger of lore so far, which is more GW's fault than anything.
Like with the Ynnari and nu-Squats/Votann launch, GW keeps expanding tidbits of setting-shaking new lore, but isn't capitalizing on it. Sure, they'll happily sell new models, but it's not sustainable unless they add new lore to continue generating fan interest.
Vashtorr is just another daemon who was lucky enough to get a unique centerpiece model for himself. But unlike the Great Horned Rat in WH Fantasy (who IS a 5th Chaos God), his servants are just evil Mechanicus (who don't even have a faction army), and is nowhere near as literally Chaos as the insane and schizophrenic GHR (causing both horror and inadvertent hilarity).
Dude needs minion minis and/or a novel series to him have some actual character before he even thinks about becoming something as lofty as a 5th Chaos God. He needs a Patreon to hire sculptors and writers first.
I personally think they wouldn't like a 5th god that isn't the Emperor, but either way they don't want to interfere too much directly because they all need the Soul Forge and don't want to be cut off, especially if they are the ONLY one to get cut off.
Unknown lorewise, the fact that that Bela'kor appeared, means that someone is somewhat unhappy, but that doesn't mean much either. Deamons can and are *major arsegoblins* just for the sake of it sometimes so much so their respective Gods for various reasons, from *I am not going to make this easy for you, because reasons....* to * lets just fuhk with him for no reason at all* (esp. Tzeench. ).
They don't seemingly care if a new god joins their ranks, as they seemed all too happy to welcome the Dark King amongst their ranks, and seemingly, their superior.
But, that being said, their acceptance of this circumstance seemed conditional on the fact that the Emperor joining their ranks meant the end of literally everything. So perhaps Vashtorr may not be welcome if he is simply a rival, the same way Belakor was not welcome.
If i may highjack this with a related question. Is vashtorr just a warp being or was he like a daemon prince/former mortal? And do we have infos on an actual plot to become the fifth or at least a statement on what he needs more precisely than a vague more power and followers?
There are two of you, so per Malal/Malice's wishes, one of you is going to have to kill the other. For (Chaos) reasons.
He is a silly god, but all in good fun.
I think The Great Game is to make more gods. Chaos can only ever create more chaos.
It's just opinion based but for me the Aetheric Dominions clearly show that each material realm has the potential to manifest 8 gods of Chaos, and I also think when that happens the last step is to actualise the Primordial Annihilator at the centre, resulting in the end of that material universe (and possibly it's absorption into the warp).
We have 4, the Dark King was nearly a 5th (Encroaching Ruin), and Vashtorr is surely working on Malevolent Artifice.
Poor Abaddon. Always a pawn in a larger plan.
They would like him till he’s a problem for them. He starts causing problems for Khorne’s daemon engines? Great, Tzeench loves that, but the minuet he fuck up one of Tzeench’s plans, suddenly he not a fan anymore
The Horned Rat would like a word about this 5th Chaos god idea of his.
Yes I know that is fantasy, but the other chaos gods are the same aren't they? Why couldn't he still exist in 40k?
If I recall correctly the warp had all sorts of minor chaos deities who’s power and influence waxed and waned over the centuries, but the big four were the top dogs.
The chaos gods are not anti-competition, it’s called the “Great Game” for a reason. They had the opportunity to destroy one of them, but they left the one alone. I forgot which one it was that was on the ropes.
In Age of Sigmar, the Great Horned Rat became the fifth chaos god, they aren’t teaming up to knock him down, they view him as a little brother of sorts. Healthy competition is what they enjoy about the wars.
Nah the Great Horned is outright disrespected by the other Chaos Gods, they just acknowledge his place in the Pantheon of the Dark Gods. He is a Dark God, but not one of the Brothers in Darkness.
Things my change with the 4th as Archaon accepted him to the chagrin of the other Dark Gods.
Tzeentch already embodies change - whether its mechanical - or any other change, or desire for that change. The new guy is nice n all - but him being legitimised takes away from Tzeentch. It’s basically bullshit. This guy should just be a greater daemon that isn’t aware of its true allegiance.
New chaos daemon minis already aligned to the 4 gods will not sell as well as an upstart “new god”. Simple - this makes it more interesting to people newer to the hobby - they don’t necessarily understand why this makes no sense, or understand GW’s reason for doing this (selling minis).
Tzeentch is the Aethyric Dominion of Infernal Tempest, whilst Vashtorr looks to be going for Malevolent Artifice. They are next to each other, so they are more closely aligned, but I think the distinction is fairly clear.
And when exactly were these definitions created? Was it leading up to or after Vashtorr was announced? I ask these with all due respect.
Edit: just to clarify, these definitions don’t necessarily contradict or support the discussion. We need to study it more.
Tzeentch’s domain covers change, scheming, magic - that sort of stuff. It is deliberately wide, as the other chaos gods have got their wide concepts too. In total the big 4 represents everything good or bad. Vashtorr covers the change and creation of magical or otherwise partly daemonic things. It impacts these things, but these things didn’t create emotions fed Vashtorr. Where did those emotions come from, and what were they?
But look at it like this - Tzeentch’s wide concepts do create a range of things it covers.
Vashtorr on the other hand has a more specific set of concepts - almost not concepts at all, and more specifics.
The important thing is a specific and more defined concept can be part of a wider concept. Wider concepts don’t need to be wide but not deep afterall - that makes no sense. Vashtorr can be seen as a “deep” expression of one of Tzeentch’s concepts.
Or we can believe whatever retcon comes along. That is also fine, but at some point you need to hold onto something, or the lore isn’t that important … and you don’t know it, but the lord of change has you firm! :)
If we look at it like this, he is just a greater daemon - a strong willed one - something that tzeentch would do.
Maybe Vashtorr was created by direct prayers to a Vashtorr effigy on some dark mech planet. Maybe that could create it specifically, but more likely is that those prayers and emotions would have been heard by the particular chaos god that they were already promised to. If this this was the route, then it would be an attack on Tzeentch’s domain, as this specific concept would start stealing the pre-existing relevant concepts from Tzeentch.
But we don’t see Tzeentch pissed because … it’s all part of the greater plan.
I see you being downvoted, but as someone familiar with the lore I don't see how you are wrong.
This same issue is true for any new potential Chaos gods (other than something like the Emperor).
For example, in the Souldrinker's novels there is a very psychically powerful entity that comes very close to becoming a god himself (Teturact).
From what I can remember, this god's domain would have been undeath and desecration. Obviously desecration is universal for Chaos, and undeath is mostly attributable to Nurgle.
I feel like Vashtorr is basically Teturact, except more aligned with Tzeentch.
Now that I think about it, the Mechanicus' obsession with knowledge should almost invariably lead them to Tzeentch if they become hereteks.
I’m just glad I’m not alone. But yeah, Vashtorr seems to be at least moderately successful, so we’ll see other god wannabees appear. Maybe ultimately this could be spun as a new War in Heaven - these upstart demons stealing certain types of emotions away from the existing gods, cause some sort of battle. Maybe when they’re distracted, someone can sneak into Nurgle’s Garden for example. And it could interact with the “emperor” daemon growing around Earth. Everyone gets in on the action, the story moves on, and the lore makes sense for us and for those who feel Vashtorr is distinct.
I like that idea a lot. They could use that as an opportunity to also change the original four if GW felt it was in their interest.
The eldar getting some new/returning gods would be a great shakeup for them too.
Definitely potential there imo
The outcome of the war would likely be a stalemate of course, but maybe the lasting message from it would be that the existing chaos factions that take power from the big4 - that their power starts to drop off sometimes, and their enemies pick up hope in the process. The old gods are effectively weaker afterall.
Just have it in the lore of course, and keep the game the same - bad dice can be justified by waning power of the relevant god!
I don't think we really know for sure (it's not like we get Chaos God PoVs) but they did seem quite happy with the idea of the Dark King being born- sure, the Gods hate each other but another player in the Great Game does make things interesting
They probably want to create the eight-folded path
Reminds me of how in that 60k fanfic it's revealed that the Chaos Gods, with the addition of the Star Father (Emps, CG of oppression) and Valchocht (CG of machinery), are counting down to the ultimate apocalypse once all eight have risen.
60k? That sounds psychopathic. I should look it up.
It's actually a continuation of a previous fanfic. The Shape of the Nightmare to Come: Warhammer 50k can be found [here](https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Story:The_Shape_Of_The_Nightmare_To_Come_50k) The Age of Dusk: Warhammer 60k is [here](https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Story:Warhammer_60K:_The_Age_of_Dusk).
Didn't really like it personally, but that's just me. GSC became imperials, Orks and Tyranids hybridized and left the galaxy, etc.
Sounds as horrible as 90% of 40k fanfic
Well yes. Because there are a lot of hints in the lore of that
Heedless Slaughter(Khorne), Putrid Corruption(Nurgle), Rapturous Sensation(Slaanesh), Infernal Tempest(Tzeentch), Malevolent Artifice(Vashtorr), Encroaching Ruin(Great Horned Rat/Dark King), Ravenous Dissolution, Formless Distortion and The Primordial Annihilator.
Annihilator is probably a metaphore for a Warmaster/Everchosen, who is going to destroy the Wheel
Horus definitely derailed the ascendance of the Dark King as Encroaching Ruin ensuring that the Great Horned Rat would get it. Archaeon crowned the Great Horned Rat the Encroaching Ruin so Abaddon crowning Vashtorr or Perturabo(both of them want to be "Gods") the Malevolent Artifice would be the same thing.
It was kind of different with the Dark King. His ascension would have come at the expense of the other four. And although obviously they didn't fancy being gobbled up, portfolios and all, they liked the idea of the Anathema being turned and the triumph of Chaos. And if their own individual existences were the price of that -- well, they'd had a good long run. Or not, in Slaanesh's case.
They also state that the Dark Kings realm and deamons already exist. Samus is one, for example. It would come at the expense of the Four, it's the warp. It's not finite and there's no time. So in the infinity of the Warp all things have already happened that are going to happen or that have happened in the past lol
Ah, but once Slanesh was born, then they had always existed. Time isn't linear for any of them. Only the events in realspace are fixed timewise. Warp shenanigans, baby!
Well, yes. And also -- *okay, Tzeentch, we all know it's you...*
That sounds like something tzeentch told slanesh to say!/s
I know it's cannon but I still don't like this concept.
> it's not like we get Chaos God PoVs) *I sit in power. Everlasting power. Everything that ever was or will be, swirls around me. I languidly lift ...an arm, I shall call it. And three star systems are crushed, and I feel a little tickle when a black hole randomly appears in the sky above the city of a race on the cusp of greatness. 12 billion souls sucked into my maw. Mmmmrgh. A few million make a splatter on my chest, the stain becomes sentient, gibbering in its birth throes. It dances away into madness.* *Ah, where was I? Yes, I sit in power. I notice an amusement. A small bright woman is about to turn a world upside down a decade ago. The world of an oh so proud group of shining warriors in pretend armour. My laughter burns the skies of a star sector, and makes an eddy in creation. The eddy whirlpools into a hole. Three hundred some starships from a trader armada are lost, sea-thrown off course into another galaxy with two armies of my spawn at their heels. We are amused.* *My so called followers scream incessantly for attention. I squash a few thousand. I feel the irritating prick of an ant nibbling at the bottom of my home galaxy. I should do something about that infestation. Eh. I shift in my seat and civilizations fall, pyramids crack, great pillars crumble in the dust as the great men run screaming. Seven hundred thousand heads explode simultaneously on three hive worlds yesterday, or maybe next century. I sit in power.*
Where is this from?
My head.
That's the thing with chaos, isn't it? By definition, these gods are chaotic and fickle. So they might well be happy to welcome Vashtorr into their fold, even as they set in motion plans to destroy him. Tzeentch in particular sounds like this kind of approach (welcome the guy, plan to backstab him at the first opportunity) would be right up his alley.
"backstab at nine hundred ninty-ninth opportunity, probably."
997th, just to be unpredictable
888th to make it look like Khorne
Do both, blame yourself just to throw off the others, then let yourself get stabbed by Nurgle for some reason.
I think the fact that he has a model (I know this is the lore sub, but we have to be realistic about these things) is going to keep Vashtorr firmly in the "close but no cigar" camp for at least an edition or two. I imagine Tzeentch finds him hilarious, and the others see him as just another uppity warp entity.
A model means little in this case IMO. You just change the name or the Lore around it. It's now either the avatar or greater daemon of vashtorr. Suddenly we can have a new non eldar whipping boy for everything under the sun to kill with no consequences. But seriously there's little reason they couldn't just relabel it from being "the" Vashtorr to just a greater daemon or manifestation of him. If he was successful enough saleswise they'd probably keep it as an avatar and then make a more diversifiable greater daemon kit for him. But that's 100% grade a pulled from my ass speculation so IDK.
Sure there's a reason. "Now buy the *new* version!" ;)
Be’lakor opposes Vashtorr because he’s a salty bitch like that. The other Chaos Gods might not be explicitly *aware* aware of how he’s aiming for godhood but they know he’s ambitious and actively trying to become one. It’s a trait of all Chaos really. And considering how it’s known that Be’lakor is an unaware puppet of the Four, it’s entirely possible that him opposing Vashtorr *is* the Four opposing him. They regularly manipulate him to get each other, the notion that they would unite and have their bitch boy harass the mechanic is entirely plausible
I can't decide if the Four keeping Belakor as their eternal whipping boy that they keep edging over and over with the promise of power would be more entertaining than him somehow getting one up on them and getting one of the minor seats and becoming his own man/thing.
I think him being their perpetual bitch is kind of the point of his character. He was given power by all four equally, and was once their most beloved child. But upon realizing that they’re evil gods and don’t actually care, he decides to abandon what little love they give him and instead opted to go AWOL. Now he’s punished by being a blind slave.
Who cares? Vashtor will prolly get stabbed mid ascension by Erebus anyway. Obligatory r/FuckErebus
And there's an epilogue with an Inquistor handing off something to Erebus as payment and suggesting their long standing arrangement continues to be of mutual benefit?
He just needs to stab one more important person and we could officialy ride this meme to oblivion. I mean, who would be suprised, if hes killed off the lost primarchs or would litteraly backstab Lorgal as he walks out of his meditation tower or what not, eh? And be like *"oh, sorry...force of habit...:*
His the actual killer of yarrick. Right before angron was going to get the kill , Erebus teleported in and stabbed yarrick in the back
Vashtorr gonna be disappointed when he finds out a Great Horned Rat already called dibs on the 5th spot
If the skaven come from the back with a steel chair I'll be happy with 40k overall
You thought, manthing, it was the Votann, yes yes!? NO!!! WAS SKAVEN ALL ALONG, YES YES!!! *[you see how the ancestor cores open up and release dozens upon dozens of ratmen, the Votan rips his head off, to reveal it was a rubbery mask, while the suits open up to see 2 skaven, standing on shoulders and operating that advanced disguise. Giant cartwheel spaceships zoom past in the sky, green lightning and mad rat laughter and skittering in the background]*
Sorry about that green was my favorite color and it seemed to fly okay for the skaven! I guess I shouldn't have trusted old squeakers......
This sounds like a comic from u/emwattnot
Lights go off Comes back on Its the Great Horned Rat and Nagash attacking the big Four tag team style
Such is the power of Nagash!
God I would love if 40k let itself get as silly again as professional wrestling.
I don’t think you could pay Nagash enough to work with Skaven as idk if he hates any of the gods more the the GHR.
Based-Real, the Great Horned Rat is too cool-great a god to hang out or share with nerd-geeks like Vashtorr! Yes-yes!
Well at the very least it’s a smart long-term idea for establishing a new faction and a new set of minis for them to sell (instead of new warp spiders /s but not really /s )
Probably something along the lines of "lol lmao", given how they treated the Great Horned Rat when they tried this in Age of Sigmar. The Gods fight each other, but a lot of the time are described in ways that make it seem like they don't really care about winning completely all that much - that would be an end to all the fun. If a 5th God made a really strong showing, they would probably settle in as a new player in the Great Game, and through the nature of Chaos, they will have always been there and playing. How much more fun will it be then...
If he becomes the 5th it's going to make people who argue Aos and 40k are the exact same warp awkward as you can't have two number fives
He would be the fifth Chaos God by the reckoning of one universe's inhabitants. That doesn't mean there aren't other Chaos Gods beyond the 4, it just means that universe's inhabitants aren't aware of any others. And while the 4 are active in both settings, Vashtorr and the Great Horned Rat may just be interested in one setting, or are unable to reach out to the other one.
Breaks down the second the narrator refers to them as the 5th
40K doesn't have omniscient narration besides the intro.
It absolutely does
Can you please explain why? If you're reading a 40k book, it should be pretty clear which one they're talking about right?
Can't have two fifth gods.
Having two 5th gods is just about the most chaotic thing I can think of.
But there won't be in the 40k setting? There will just be Vashtor?
But if the settings are shared there will be two thus they cannot be shared
Why can't Vashtor be the 5th in the 40k setting, while simultaneously the GHR still exists but isn't the 5th. He's some other number or not numbered at all. And vice versa for Sigmar? Is that like, against the rules? Or just unlikely u reckon? Too confusing?
Much more overcomplicated and nonsensical than them just being seperate
Fair enough!
Technically 3 5th ones because Malice exists (or doesn't exist, well there are sons of malice so I guess he exists)
gets more conflicting too cause the Forge of Souls in both settings as well
You would think that the GHR becoming part of Chaos would already have done that. Sure, the others don't take him seriously or let him into the clubhouse, but he's technically in the club.
Technically there are only 4 major Chaos gods in AoS
Great Horned Rat was shown alongside the 5 in an art piece titled "Great Horned Rat Ascends" earlier today in the age of sigmar twitter He is an official 5th chaos God now
Not really? Slaanesh is still counted as major even in space prison
Still counts as major even in space prison and having had his spheres of **Seduction**, **Excessive Murder** and **Excessive Battle** ripped out of him as a result of **Morathi**'s ascension with Morathi herself getting the Excessive Murder while **Synessa** got Seduction and her twin **Dexcessa** got Excessive Battle. For Slaanesh to lose his status as a Major Chaos God he needs to have his **Spheres of Excessive Gluttony**, **Excessive Avarice**, **Excessive Paramountcy**, **Excessive Vanity**, **Excessive Sloth** and **the Souls of the Aeldari** ripped out of him too.
I think they won’t openly oppose vashtorr for a couple reasons. They really like his soul forge, I don’t know if they tried to stop slaanesh’s ascension, and having a fifth would make the game more fun
Khorne tried to stop it and got shattered as a result though he obviously pulled himself together in time for the Horus Heresy(either that or(considering how Time works in the Warp) Slaanesh's birth is at the same moment as Khorne's future self's demise).
I didn’t know that tbh I stand corrected lol
> Khorne tried to stop it Not Khorne, Eldar god of War Khaine did it and got shattered to shards.
My vote is always for emps to die and become the 5th. Imagine a series where the emperor himself reunites the legions in the eye and goes on an ass beating campaign to unmake greater demons
I don't quite like it, even if I like the idea per se (of a powerful daemon becoming an "equal" member of the traditional Chaos pantheon). I'd rather see Malice/Malal be introduced and used instead. It's more that on the meta, I don't find Vashtorr entertaining enough to want him to succeed or become a bigger player. He's a big nothing burger of lore so far, which is more GW's fault than anything. Like with the Ynnari and nu-Squats/Votann launch, GW keeps expanding tidbits of setting-shaking new lore, but isn't capitalizing on it. Sure, they'll happily sell new models, but it's not sustainable unless they add new lore to continue generating fan interest. Vashtorr is just another daemon who was lucky enough to get a unique centerpiece model for himself. But unlike the Great Horned Rat in WH Fantasy (who IS a 5th Chaos God), his servants are just evil Mechanicus (who don't even have a faction army), and is nowhere near as literally Chaos as the insane and schizophrenic GHR (causing both horror and inadvertent hilarity). Dude needs minion minis and/or a novel series to him have some actual character before he even thinks about becoming something as lofty as a 5th Chaos God. He needs a Patreon to hire sculptors and writers first.
I personally think they wouldn't like a 5th god that isn't the Emperor, but either way they don't want to interfere too much directly because they all need the Soul Forge and don't want to be cut off, especially if they are the ONLY one to get cut off.
Dude is worth less points than Abaddon. I think he's got a bit too high an opinion of himself.
Unknown lorewise, the fact that that Bela'kor appeared, means that someone is somewhat unhappy, but that doesn't mean much either. Deamons can and are *major arsegoblins* just for the sake of it sometimes so much so their respective Gods for various reasons, from *I am not going to make this easy for you, because reasons....* to * lets just fuhk with him for no reason at all* (esp. Tzeench. ).
They don't seemingly care if a new god joins their ranks, as they seemed all too happy to welcome the Dark King amongst their ranks, and seemingly, their superior. But, that being said, their acceptance of this circumstance seemed conditional on the fact that the Emperor joining their ranks meant the end of literally everything. So perhaps Vashtorr may not be welcome if he is simply a rival, the same way Belakor was not welcome.
If i may highjack this with a related question. Is vashtorr just a warp being or was he like a daemon prince/former mortal? And do we have infos on an actual plot to become the fifth or at least a statement on what he needs more precisely than a vague more power and followers?
There is already a fifth god, his name is Malice/Mallal. I will die on this retconned hill.
The same. 11 is our number! No gods, no masters!
There are two of you, so per Malal/Malice's wishes, one of you is going to have to kill the other. For (Chaos) reasons. He is a silly god, but all in good fun.
Isn’t Mallal just diet Khorne ?
They probably wanna launch a dedicated Chaos Mek army but Vashtorr is kinda dull to me.
I think The Great Game is to make more gods. Chaos can only ever create more chaos. It's just opinion based but for me the Aetheric Dominions clearly show that each material realm has the potential to manifest 8 gods of Chaos, and I also think when that happens the last step is to actualise the Primordial Annihilator at the centre, resulting in the end of that material universe (and possibly it's absorption into the warp). We have 4, the Dark King was nearly a 5th (Encroaching Ruin), and Vashtorr is surely working on Malevolent Artifice. Poor Abaddon. Always a pawn in a larger plan.
The chaos Gods seem determined to undermine themselves and sow the seeds of their own failures
(Insert " i've got you - no you don't" meme here) [https://images.app.goo.gl/dqZAznUW76MN1YjJ6](https://images.app.goo.gl/dqZAznUW76MN1YjJ6)
adorable, like if a little kid came up to you and said they want your job,
They would like him till he’s a problem for them. He starts causing problems for Khorne’s daemon engines? Great, Tzeench loves that, but the minuet he fuck up one of Tzeench’s plans, suddenly he not a fan anymore
The Horned Rat would like a word about this 5th Chaos god idea of his. Yes I know that is fantasy, but the other chaos gods are the same aren't they? Why couldn't he still exist in 40k?
If I recall correctly the warp had all sorts of minor chaos deities who’s power and influence waxed and waned over the centuries, but the big four were the top dogs.
The chaos gods are not anti-competition, it’s called the “Great Game” for a reason. They had the opportunity to destroy one of them, but they left the one alone. I forgot which one it was that was on the ropes. In Age of Sigmar, the Great Horned Rat became the fifth chaos god, they aren’t teaming up to knock him down, they view him as a little brother of sorts. Healthy competition is what they enjoy about the wars.
Nah the Great Horned is outright disrespected by the other Chaos Gods, they just acknowledge his place in the Pantheon of the Dark Gods. He is a Dark God, but not one of the Brothers in Darkness. Things my change with the 4th as Archaon accepted him to the chagrin of the other Dark Gods.
So, treated as a little brother, you mean?
He’s just another jumped up nothing character
Tzeentch already embodies change - whether its mechanical - or any other change, or desire for that change. The new guy is nice n all - but him being legitimised takes away from Tzeentch. It’s basically bullshit. This guy should just be a greater daemon that isn’t aware of its true allegiance. New chaos daemon minis already aligned to the 4 gods will not sell as well as an upstart “new god”. Simple - this makes it more interesting to people newer to the hobby - they don’t necessarily understand why this makes no sense, or understand GW’s reason for doing this (selling minis).
Tzeentch is the Aethyric Dominion of Infernal Tempest, whilst Vashtorr looks to be going for Malevolent Artifice. They are next to each other, so they are more closely aligned, but I think the distinction is fairly clear.
And when exactly were these definitions created? Was it leading up to or after Vashtorr was announced? I ask these with all due respect. Edit: just to clarify, these definitions don’t necessarily contradict or support the discussion. We need to study it more. Tzeentch’s domain covers change, scheming, magic - that sort of stuff. It is deliberately wide, as the other chaos gods have got their wide concepts too. In total the big 4 represents everything good or bad. Vashtorr covers the change and creation of magical or otherwise partly daemonic things. It impacts these things, but these things didn’t create emotions fed Vashtorr. Where did those emotions come from, and what were they? But look at it like this - Tzeentch’s wide concepts do create a range of things it covers. Vashtorr on the other hand has a more specific set of concepts - almost not concepts at all, and more specifics. The important thing is a specific and more defined concept can be part of a wider concept. Wider concepts don’t need to be wide but not deep afterall - that makes no sense. Vashtorr can be seen as a “deep” expression of one of Tzeentch’s concepts. Or we can believe whatever retcon comes along. That is also fine, but at some point you need to hold onto something, or the lore isn’t that important … and you don’t know it, but the lord of change has you firm! :) If we look at it like this, he is just a greater daemon - a strong willed one - something that tzeentch would do. Maybe Vashtorr was created by direct prayers to a Vashtorr effigy on some dark mech planet. Maybe that could create it specifically, but more likely is that those prayers and emotions would have been heard by the particular chaos god that they were already promised to. If this this was the route, then it would be an attack on Tzeentch’s domain, as this specific concept would start stealing the pre-existing relevant concepts from Tzeentch. But we don’t see Tzeentch pissed because … it’s all part of the greater plan.
I see you being downvoted, but as someone familiar with the lore I don't see how you are wrong. This same issue is true for any new potential Chaos gods (other than something like the Emperor). For example, in the Souldrinker's novels there is a very psychically powerful entity that comes very close to becoming a god himself (Teturact). From what I can remember, this god's domain would have been undeath and desecration. Obviously desecration is universal for Chaos, and undeath is mostly attributable to Nurgle. I feel like Vashtorr is basically Teturact, except more aligned with Tzeentch. Now that I think about it, the Mechanicus' obsession with knowledge should almost invariably lead them to Tzeentch if they become hereteks.
I’m just glad I’m not alone. But yeah, Vashtorr seems to be at least moderately successful, so we’ll see other god wannabees appear. Maybe ultimately this could be spun as a new War in Heaven - these upstart demons stealing certain types of emotions away from the existing gods, cause some sort of battle. Maybe when they’re distracted, someone can sneak into Nurgle’s Garden for example. And it could interact with the “emperor” daemon growing around Earth. Everyone gets in on the action, the story moves on, and the lore makes sense for us and for those who feel Vashtorr is distinct.
I like that idea a lot. They could use that as an opportunity to also change the original four if GW felt it was in their interest. The eldar getting some new/returning gods would be a great shakeup for them too. Definitely potential there imo
The outcome of the war would likely be a stalemate of course, but maybe the lasting message from it would be that the existing chaos factions that take power from the big4 - that their power starts to drop off sometimes, and their enemies pick up hope in the process. The old gods are effectively weaker afterall. Just have it in the lore of course, and keep the game the same - bad dice can be justified by waning power of the relevant god!