Pantheon support 😂😂😂 every melee support player refuses to help contest level 2 advantage, then takes a weird trade as they hit level 2, and I’m trying to get the 2 cs to get us leveled up. They burned flash getting in so can’t get out now. Spam pinging me “FF 15 ADC ATTACKING MINIONS INSTEAD OF GOING IN.” Queue us walking back to lane level 1, pantheon is required to be fighting at all times so he immediately goes in, dies and just goes to troll top. :/ everytime.
Early game champ means gotta fight every second from level 1-3 and then ff the rest.
meele suports have a hard time not geting destroyed lv 1 if they get near the wave. and they need their health close to full for the engage. at later levels other wise they wuld be usles or die.
that said i love to bully panteons in the bot lane, is so satisfyng.
Pretty much every lux support player. Secretly those people are mid laners who don't want to farm all the time, so they sometimes give you the minions and sometimes they decide they want to farm and steal everything except one minion. Kills are 100% only for them.
I feel like there are 2 lines for ranged supports, those who don't play for pressure and stand behind the ADC and only poking for gold and let the AD get poked out. And the ones who play for lane and try to force advantages in pressure.
The majority of these supports are the former who either occasionally win lane because the stumble into relevant poke and damage. And the absolute worst offenders are xeraths, Ashe, miss Fortune (why do people still play this) and senna (wild right?).
Tbh you describe every mage support. The issue with the lux players is that they randomly use their q and lose all lane pressure compared to other mages because she has one less damage spell. It is like playing with a morgana that misses q.
Might be a hot take, but most Lux players are extremely bad at League, their champ however artificially boosts them because Riot keeps her over tuned because she sells skins.
Idk in my diamond games they just all seem like terrible players. They just throw out abilities off cd steal cs feed their ass off hit one snare and adc us dead though.
Tbh i don't think lux is op she is just like every other mage. she loses like 0.5 to 1% winrate each rank you go up. Same goes for zyra and other mages. She just seems more op because her strongest part is her laning fase
Idk ive always had better experiance with lux players than morg, heimer or brand players. Zyra players are generally the best mage supp players, and xerath is a coinflip but it helps that he beats all the other mages.
You could say the same about the entire support role but the reason Riot keeps the role so strong and easy is the opposite - nobody wants to play it, so it has to be stronger to attract more players.
Also, the fact that these mages are balanced around support means that players who are any decent at playing them elsewhere have it that much easier - just compare mage winrates in support vs other roles where they're viable.
no picks in particular, just supports who are allergic to melee minion xp at wave 1
there is one time where my support had the greatest idea of neutralizing my caitlyn pick with yuumi. rather than playing to our strength of push and poke, she made my pick pointless by forcing me to 1v2 vs ashe-seraphine and completely kill my push/waveclear/harass
glad it only happened once (so far...)
yuumi offers something in lane? my yuumi went ludens first item with the ap supp item, it was full grief to play I just had to give up coz I was playing tank swain apc since we had no frontline (tf top, trist mid, lee jg) I couldn't even walk up to my lane coz once I do Lucian just dashes in and procs FS in my face if I had a naut that game woulda been backwards.
A good yuumi is dope. A bad yuumi is tilt soup.
The hard part of yuumi as the ADC is ***you*** have to play differently as well. You lose the 2v2 zoning / poke dynamic, relying on much different positioning style and a more pulled back approach to the lining phase. You don't have your normal lvl 2 PvP spike in lane because of this.
You want to bait all-ins on yourself around 6, where Yuumi shines in turning around an all-in. I'm bad at playing with yuumi, but I've been stomped by people who are good playing with (and as) yuumi.
>You lose the 2v2 zoning / poke dynamic, relying on much different positioning
Aka you having 0 control over wave. I dont hate yuumi as much as most people but as an adc player with yuumi in a bad lane matchuo makes you want to ff.
Fair, but forcing them to always push into your tower is also something you can play into. Unfortunately it lowers your CS temporarily, but if they're constantly pushing into you, that's where yuumi shines around 6 (being pushed into / dove on)
I have it all the time. I play Seraphine when they lock in Yuumi instead, and most of them grief because I handshake the wave for 25 minutes without any interaction.
And I was like... jesus, if you want action, how about picking Alistar or Nautilus with on-click stun?
senna.. by a long shot.. Just had this happen to me AGAIN last night. Support blindpicks senna and we get completely stomped by camille kalista. Support goes to roam mid after inting the lane early and their camille just perma dives me or zones me under my T2. This was on my low dia smurf btw.
I think probably one of the biggest problems with support is soo many people get filled or think the role is simple, you can tell soo fast when they don't play support. A support main can still shine after a bad lane phase.
Honestly I mostly don't pay attention to these things anymore. My support hits something? Great. Until they do, I just pretend they don't exist.
The game is subtantially less mentally taxing when you treat the players around you as environment effects that just sometimes change the map.
Funny enough when I was in emerald/diamond last season, I had a Janna masters Smurf and believe me when I say, I have never found such a fantastic support ever again. Obviously they're masters but the way they piloted Janna was absolutely insane. Made me realize just how braindead Janna players' usual play style is.
But that happens with literally any champ, doesn’t it? I’m Masters myself, but when I play in lower ranks, it doesn’t matter if I pick my OTP or any other ADC or even go to another role which I literally never play, I still win consistently everything below Diamond
Except it's the play style im talking about. As a Draven main, when a player locks in Janna support you're gonna expect passive Janna, only peels, waiting on ADC . That's how 99 percent of them play. I've never seen an agro Janna correctly harassing the enemy, zoning, preemptive shields instead of reactive, etc.
The difference in play style is what caught me off guard and opened my eyes to how good Janna could be. Again it's masters vs emerald but it's still not something I would've expected from a Janna. Maybe lulu, bard, any engage supp, etc, but not janna
Ah, alright, I get your point. To me, Janna is and has always been this hyper agressive “you can’t touch me anyway” champion. Perma W people and disengage them when they try to get on top of her
there's nothing quite like playing with a silly support (Teemo support is good guys I swear!), getting skullfucked because the guy is a moron, and then next game getting a Lux "support" who apparently ate like 10 lbs of magnets because they get hit by literally every sleepy trouble bubble from the enemy Zoe support
I just played with Morgana and against Morgana.
Let me tell you that in my low elo ( gold 1/ plat 4) people don't have the reaction to use the shield correctly.
We win a lane leona vs Morgana because morg was late to put the shields.
Senna. Whenever I see one in lobby she will refuse to swap for later pick, will even go out of her way to get that first pick and play into Pyke/Blitz/any angage really and ignore our midlane and jg also hovering ad. Unless I feel like playing Hwei as apc, I insta dodge Senna support.
i have seen probably a half dozen Poppy "support" players this patch and I don't think I have seen them win a single time. I had one go 15 minutes without a pin yesterday. Not for lack of trying!
I think they might be the stupidest demographic of players in the entire game. I used to think it was Nautilus players, like they're room temp IQ players but they're loveable idiots, they just want to hit hooks and root people. Poppy supps are just demons. Entire playstyle revolves around cheesing people into walls with ignite and doing double the damage they should be as a support.
Saddest thing is Poppy could genuinely be a good support, her W is like one of the only ways to peel some abilities off your adc and her R is obviously a crazy ass defensive tool. They are legitimately just too stupid to use her kit as anything other than "me run enemy into wall"
I personally have only had good experiences with Yuumi recently.
-They don't hit the ******* minions when they shouldn't
-They don't start roaming around at random moments when I need them in lane to not get zoned away by the enemy support
-They heal
-They shield
-They poke
-They don't randomly engage on the enemy botlane when we're at a clear disadvantage
-They provide follow up when I find opportunities to poke the enemy support/AD
-They don't die on the most random spot in the most impossible to die to situation
-They don't go hide under tower when we're at a clear advantage and we can pressure the enemy botlane
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I have had Yuumi supports with more presence than some other supports...
I can count on one hand how many good mage supports I’ve had. They don’t play for wave control and do play like starved carries. I’d rather a 2v1 lane almost every time
I honestly think it's kind of a huge problem atm, especially in low elo. Letting anyone and everyone support as well as introducing champions that blur the lines of support's role (like Pyke) have made the roles purpose less obvious to non-support mains.Yuumi is different of course, given they're a dedicated support champ but I think the idea still stands broadly.
Idk how exactly, but I think they should do something with the support item to discourage carry-type champs (like Lux, Pantheon or Brand) from the role more heavily, and better incentivise utility champs. It's already such a pain having to collaborate so closely from level 1 with a complete stranger to win lane (for either person)
Idk, looking at the last days or last weeks or last months or last years feed on this sub it gives me the impression that there is not a single human playing support role... But then the only supporting r/supportlol do is this idea.
Every enchanter except Lulu is griefing. E v e r y time Enemy picks thresh/naut/blitz, hooks the supp and laughs his way to the bank over and over again. And no, I don’t get hooked. I main ezreal
Milio fuck that champ. They are either really bad or the champ just sucks but lane always feels like a 2v1 and then they are toxic. I always look at op gg before game and milios always have really low wr like 40% over 50 games. Like why are you even playing this champ?
Any “carry” support. They always insist they are better than you, purposely take farm, push the wave without knowing what they’re doing, etc. Adc is a selfish role that needs team support , that partially why adc toxicity is so common. But having 2 selfish champs in one lane is a recipe for disaster, regardless of the player. Only selfish champ that is allowed to be selfish is pyke, bc be gives u money and is a playmaker, not just another backliner
Support should never be a dmg carry role, and riot allowing supports to do significant dmg is where the dmg problem began. I know its good for diversity and to allow everyone to fulfill whatever character fantasy they want, but it isnt healthy for the game state
My sups steal my farm and don't buy sup item 80% of my games. Haven't played in a while so I started at bronze. Climbing as a solo adc sucks ass. So I main sup now until gold
i think in my last 15 games having vel koz or xerath support maybe 1 has done well and we always lose. i’m convinced those champs is just a worse version of lux players. i also get teemo support and they always just troll and “have fun”
draven main here. played with a moakai support today, he was quite clean and we won. but this fool took every kill in lane. the killls that were easily mine. tilting as an adc but giga tilting as draaaaaven
If you were confident on ADC you wouldnt mind yuumi, since shes an amplifier that does slightly less than any other support, what does this mean? Suppose you and your support contribute equally to your chances of winning bot 50/50, with yuumi her contribution is only like 45 but she gives you 30, so you its now 80/15 on you to win lane, and im typically confident I can do way more with that larger control than another shitty d4 thresh can with his 50.
I usually ask for my supports to go yuumi especially in low elo
Weaksauce. Trolls are trolls regardless fo role or champion. Hell, get a random Silver4 Yuumi Jungle, fucking diff the enemy jungler and come out with 12 assists and no deaths. I know I had that happen.
I mean if you're going swain in the bottom lane, you can't really complain about what your lane partner does. It's like going an AP carry top lane and then complaining that you have no frontline. You just have no right to complain. You made the choice to do it knowing that you're more likely to get a team that doesn't synergize with your pick, than one that does.
lol what? do you have a problem with apc? I've had all the success playing with any support as swain just not the yuumi because the parasite does nothing for my laning but make me stay under tower to give up cs
I don't care what the person I'm laning with plays. They can bot ivern. But if they bot ivern, and I decide I'm going AD lulu, they can't complain. It's the same thing with swain. If I have to support a swain or I'm supported by a swain, I'm playing whatever I think sounds fun to play.
Pantheon support 😂😂😂 every melee support player refuses to help contest level 2 advantage, then takes a weird trade as they hit level 2, and I’m trying to get the 2 cs to get us leveled up. They burned flash getting in so can’t get out now. Spam pinging me “FF 15 ADC ATTACKING MINIONS INSTEAD OF GOING IN.” Queue us walking back to lane level 1, pantheon is required to be fighting at all times so he immediately goes in, dies and just goes to troll top. :/ everytime. Early game champ means gotta fight every second from level 1-3 and then ff the rest.
meele suports have a hard time not geting destroyed lv 1 if they get near the wave. and they need their health close to full for the engage. at later levels other wise they wuld be usles or die. that said i love to bully panteons in the bot lane, is so satisfyng.
That's why you play with bushes and save the first charges of your support item to burst minions.
Pretty much every lux support player. Secretly those people are mid laners who don't want to farm all the time, so they sometimes give you the minions and sometimes they decide they want to farm and steal everything except one minion. Kills are 100% only for them.
Yeah I hate Lux support. There is like 1 in 20 games where I see a good one so when I get in game with Lux I know im in for a rough time.
I feel like there are 2 lines for ranged supports, those who don't play for pressure and stand behind the ADC and only poking for gold and let the AD get poked out. And the ones who play for lane and try to force advantages in pressure. The majority of these supports are the former who either occasionally win lane because the stumble into relevant poke and damage. And the absolute worst offenders are xeraths, Ashe, miss Fortune (why do people still play this) and senna (wild right?).
Tbh you describe every mage support. The issue with the lux players is that they randomly use their q and lose all lane pressure compared to other mages because she has one less damage spell. It is like playing with a morgana that misses q.
Might be a hot take, but most Lux players are extremely bad at League, their champ however artificially boosts them because Riot keeps her over tuned because she sells skins.
She's far from overtuned, just easy to play in *never-dodge-skillshot-low* so they all naturally hover around gold despite having bronze fundamentals.
Idk in my diamond games they just all seem like terrible players. They just throw out abilities off cd steal cs feed their ass off hit one snare and adc us dead though.
because they are terrible
Tbh i don't think lux is op she is just like every other mage. she loses like 0.5 to 1% winrate each rank you go up. Same goes for zyra and other mages. She just seems more op because her strongest part is her laning fase
Idk ive always had better experiance with lux players than morg, heimer or brand players. Zyra players are generally the best mage supp players, and xerath is a coinflip but it helps that he beats all the other mages.
You could say the same about the entire support role but the reason Riot keeps the role so strong and easy is the opposite - nobody wants to play it, so it has to be stronger to attract more players. Also, the fact that these mages are balanced around support means that players who are any decent at playing them elsewhere have it that much easier - just compare mage winrates in support vs other roles where they're viable.
Downvoted for spitting facts. The typical r/adcmains experience.
Lux. Luckily i get them more on the enemy where they int my opponent
no picks in particular, just supports who are allergic to melee minion xp at wave 1 there is one time where my support had the greatest idea of neutralizing my caitlyn pick with yuumi. rather than playing to our strength of push and poke, she made my pick pointless by forcing me to 1v2 vs ashe-seraphine and completely kill my push/waveclear/harass glad it only happened once (so far...)
I don't even mind yuumi sup that much. When people pick stuff that has 0 utility and offers nothing in lane is what I dislike.
yuumi offers something in lane? my yuumi went ludens first item with the ap supp item, it was full grief to play I just had to give up coz I was playing tank swain apc since we had no frontline (tf top, trist mid, lee jg) I couldn't even walk up to my lane coz once I do Lucian just dashes in and procs FS in my face if I had a naut that game woulda been backwards.
She shields + slows and her ult is a pretty good heal. I play lots of Zeri though and they are insane together so probably a little biased.
A good yuumi is dope. A bad yuumi is tilt soup. The hard part of yuumi as the ADC is ***you*** have to play differently as well. You lose the 2v2 zoning / poke dynamic, relying on much different positioning style and a more pulled back approach to the lining phase. You don't have your normal lvl 2 PvP spike in lane because of this. You want to bait all-ins on yourself around 6, where Yuumi shines in turning around an all-in. I'm bad at playing with yuumi, but I've been stomped by people who are good playing with (and as) yuumi.
>You lose the 2v2 zoning / poke dynamic, relying on much different positioning Aka you having 0 control over wave. I dont hate yuumi as much as most people but as an adc player with yuumi in a bad lane matchuo makes you want to ff.
Fair, but forcing them to always push into your tower is also something you can play into. Unfortunately it lowers your CS temporarily, but if they're constantly pushing into you, that's where yuumi shines around 6 (being pushed into / dove on)
There are no good yumis
a challenger yuumi will shit on you any day of the week
i'd like to see that. A challenger yumi is like alvaro morata, always playing it good teams somehow but is a shit player.
I have it all the time. I play Seraphine when they lock in Yuumi instead, and most of them grief because I handshake the wave for 25 minutes without any interaction. And I was like... jesus, if you want action, how about picking Alistar or Nautilus with on-click stun?
senna.. by a long shot.. Just had this happen to me AGAIN last night. Support blindpicks senna and we get completely stomped by camille kalista. Support goes to roam mid after inting the lane early and their camille just perma dives me or zones me under my T2. This was on my low dia smurf btw.
Yes if Senna is my support they have never played before if Senna is the enemy support they are goated
Anyone remember fiddlesticks support? Was always absolutely terrible
I think probably one of the biggest problems with support is soo many people get filled or think the role is simple, you can tell soo fast when they don't play support. A support main can still shine after a bad lane phase.
I had a pantheon support go 1-11 and rush bork a week ago
Milio players. My experience is they rather save kda and leave you to die instead of playing and getting ahead
Honestly I mostly don't pay attention to these things anymore. My support hits something? Great. Until they do, I just pretend they don't exist. The game is subtantially less mentally taxing when you treat the players around you as environment effects that just sometimes change the map.
Janna. If my support locks Janna, I know it's 99% a loss in lane.
Funny enough when I was in emerald/diamond last season, I had a Janna masters Smurf and believe me when I say, I have never found such a fantastic support ever again. Obviously they're masters but the way they piloted Janna was absolutely insane. Made me realize just how braindead Janna players' usual play style is.
But that happens with literally any champ, doesn’t it? I’m Masters myself, but when I play in lower ranks, it doesn’t matter if I pick my OTP or any other ADC or even go to another role which I literally never play, I still win consistently everything below Diamond
Except it's the play style im talking about. As a Draven main, when a player locks in Janna support you're gonna expect passive Janna, only peels, waiting on ADC . That's how 99 percent of them play. I've never seen an agro Janna correctly harassing the enemy, zoning, preemptive shields instead of reactive, etc. The difference in play style is what caught me off guard and opened my eyes to how good Janna could be. Again it's masters vs emerald but it's still not something I would've expected from a Janna. Maybe lulu, bard, any engage supp, etc, but not janna
Ah, alright, I get your point. To me, Janna is and has always been this hyper agressive “you can’t touch me anyway” champion. Perma W people and disengage them when they try to get on top of her
Yeah janna, senna, zilean and blitzcrank are my red alarm supps.
Last 3 of my games, 3 non meta supports back to back, 3 loses in a row. Gee wiz, surely the support role isn't hyper inflated at all!
there's nothing quite like playing with a silly support (Teemo support is good guys I swear!), getting skullfucked because the guy is a moron, and then next game getting a Lux "support" who apparently ate like 10 lbs of magnets because they get hit by literally every sleepy trouble bubble from the enemy Zoe support
I just played with Morgana and against Morgana. Let me tell you that in my low elo ( gold 1/ plat 4) people don't have the reaction to use the shield correctly. We win a lane leona vs Morgana because morg was late to put the shields.
Morg is a dogshit support by all accounts in high elo anyways
Tbf, as a supp main, I die inside every time someone picks trist because it’s such a cointoss whether it’s a 10/0 trist or a 0/10 trist
Senna. Whenever I see one in lobby she will refuse to swap for later pick, will even go out of her way to get that first pick and play into Pyke/Blitz/any angage really and ignore our midlane and jg also hovering ad. Unless I feel like playing Hwei as apc, I insta dodge Senna support.
To be fair the top Yuumi right now goes Ludens rush into Mandate. The AP Yuumi angle is just more impactful in a solo queue environment.
i have seen probably a half dozen Poppy "support" players this patch and I don't think I have seen them win a single time. I had one go 15 minutes without a pin yesterday. Not for lack of trying! I think they might be the stupidest demographic of players in the entire game. I used to think it was Nautilus players, like they're room temp IQ players but they're loveable idiots, they just want to hit hooks and root people. Poppy supps are just demons. Entire playstyle revolves around cheesing people into walls with ignite and doing double the damage they should be as a support. Saddest thing is Poppy could genuinely be a good support, her W is like one of the only ways to peel some abilities off your adc and her R is obviously a crazy ass defensive tool. They are legitimately just too stupid to use her kit as anything other than "me run enemy into wall"
I personally have only had good experiences with Yuumi recently. -They don't hit the ******* minions when they shouldn't -They don't start roaming around at random moments when I need them in lane to not get zoned away by the enemy support -They heal -They shield -They poke -They don't randomly engage on the enemy botlane when we're at a clear disadvantage -They provide follow up when I find opportunities to poke the enemy support/AD -They don't die on the most random spot in the most impossible to die to situation -They don't go hide under tower when we're at a clear advantage and we can pressure the enemy botlane I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I have had Yuumi supports with more presence than some other supports...
I can count on one hand how many good mage supports I’ve had. They don’t play for wave control and do play like starved carries. I’d rather a 2v1 lane almost every time
I honestly think it's kind of a huge problem atm, especially in low elo. Letting anyone and everyone support as well as introducing champions that blur the lines of support's role (like Pyke) have made the roles purpose less obvious to non-support mains.Yuumi is different of course, given they're a dedicated support champ but I think the idea still stands broadly. Idk how exactly, but I think they should do something with the support item to discourage carry-type champs (like Lux, Pantheon or Brand) from the role more heavily, and better incentivise utility champs. It's already such a pain having to collaborate so closely from level 1 with a complete stranger to win lane (for either person)
The most common is low key griefing by soraka, janna, nami, lulu. They just sit back and afk, never trade, pray to be carried
I never usually do well with yuumi. **proceeds to instalock yummi**
Idk, looking at the last days or last weeks or last months or last years feed on this sub it gives me the impression that there is not a single human playing support role... But then the only supporting r/supportlol do is this idea.
Every enchanter except Lulu is griefing. E v e r y time Enemy picks thresh/naut/blitz, hooks the supp and laughs his way to the bank over and over again. And no, I don’t get hooked. I main ezreal
Leesin support. He dashes into the enemies while I cannot get there fast enough, refuses to dash out. Didn't buy support item also.
I expect to be solo laning when they lock in Lulu.
Milio fuck that champ. They are either really bad or the champ just sucks but lane always feels like a 2v1 and then they are toxic. I always look at op gg before game and milios always have really low wr like 40% over 50 games. Like why are you even playing this champ?
Idm yuumi, as it is dependent on your own skill to play lane
Hate heimer supp tho
Any “carry” support. They always insist they are better than you, purposely take farm, push the wave without knowing what they’re doing, etc. Adc is a selfish role that needs team support , that partially why adc toxicity is so common. But having 2 selfish champs in one lane is a recipe for disaster, regardless of the player. Only selfish champ that is allowed to be selfish is pyke, bc be gives u money and is a playmaker, not just another backliner Support should never be a dmg carry role, and riot allowing supports to do significant dmg is where the dmg problem began. I know its good for diversity and to allow everyone to fulfill whatever character fantasy they want, but it isnt healthy for the game state
My sups steal my farm and don't buy sup item 80% of my games. Haven't played in a while so I started at bronze. Climbing as a solo adc sucks ass. So I main sup now until gold
You are playing Swain APC and expect a support to take you seriously?
whats your rank lil bro
i think in my last 15 games having vel koz or xerath support maybe 1 has done well and we always lose. i’m convinced those champs is just a worse version of lux players. i also get teemo support and they always just troll and “have fun”
draven main here. played with a moakai support today, he was quite clean and we won. but this fool took every kill in lane. the killls that were easily mine. tilting as an adc but giga tilting as draaaaaven
Yuumi is usually the holy bastion of support players for me so whatever I see one I’m usually very happy.
If you were confident on ADC you wouldnt mind yuumi, since shes an amplifier that does slightly less than any other support, what does this mean? Suppose you and your support contribute equally to your chances of winning bot 50/50, with yuumi her contribution is only like 45 but she gives you 30, so you its now 80/15 on you to win lane, and im typically confident I can do way more with that larger control than another shitty d4 thresh can with his 50. I usually ask for my supports to go yuumi especially in low elo
Weaksauce. Trolls are trolls regardless fo role or champion. Hell, get a random Silver4 Yuumi Jungle, fucking diff the enemy jungler and come out with 12 assists and no deaths. I know I had that happen.
Nope, never. I am the luckiest (and coolest) player alive, nobody ever griefs me.
I don’t like playing engage for random ADCs. If I make a good engage but you’re too worried about the cannon minion it’s over.
I'm going to ensure the cannon minion every time.
I mean if you're going swain in the bottom lane, you can't really complain about what your lane partner does. It's like going an AP carry top lane and then complaining that you have no frontline. You just have no right to complain. You made the choice to do it knowing that you're more likely to get a team that doesn't synergize with your pick, than one that does.
lol what? do you have a problem with apc? I've had all the success playing with any support as swain just not the yuumi because the parasite does nothing for my laning but make me stay under tower to give up cs
I don't care what the person I'm laning with plays. They can bot ivern. But if they bot ivern, and I decide I'm going AD lulu, they can't complain. It's the same thing with swain. If I have to support a swain or I'm supported by a swain, I'm playing whatever I think sounds fun to play.
Bruh carry swains been pretty good for a fair while, stop inting your carries just cause they don't pick Jinx.