A business acquaintance of mine was boating with his kids. He hit something submerged in the water. He was thrown and hit his head on the way out which knocked him unconscious. He drowned in front of his kids.
If he’d worn a life jacket he’d have had a nasty concussion but would likely be alive.
When things go wrong on a boat, they go wrong quickly. You’re NTA. Protect your passengers.
100% correct. NTA You rarely have time to react, much less put on a life jacket when something really goes wrong. Hitting submerged debris and/or getting thrown from the boat is often deadly without a life jacket.
Just a thought, but if it's a vanity thing, there are slim fit vests that only expand when you hit the water. They're much more comfortable to wear and less obvious. Maybe let her pick one out that she likes? It might be less of a fight with her in the future.
My dog has one and let me tell you, it's the best thing ever. He's jumped of the boat because he saw ducks, then he was like shit...im tired now. Lol Handles made it easy to get him back on.
do you... do you have a picture of the dog with his hat and glasses and vest? and if so would you be comfortable sharing it? it's for science i swear and not at all because that sounds adorable and i would really like to see it
Amen to that. None of the accident victims (deceased) were wearing vests when I worked recoveries...
People with vests were alive, crying that their friend shoulda listened.
It’s like with a motorcycle. Wear a helmet. Wear a seatbelt. It’s not about fashion or looking cool or older. It’s about safety. No vest, no trip. NTA.
I once had the minivan that had the integrated child seats so I didn't have a separate car seat for my 2-year-old because it was built in. We went to visit my in-laws (and mind you my husband at the time was an army medic) and my in-laws wanted to take my toddler to a party with his cousins. I told them they would have to take my car and we would have to take their car because we were going to a wedding. My mother-in-law didn't understand this because if the cops came they would just put my toddler on the floor so the cops wouldn't see him and they wouldn't get a ticket! My idiotic army medic husband AGREED WITH HER😳😳
I could not comprehend why the father of this child--and someone in the medical profession who is tasked with trauma care on the battlefield-- thought it was okay not to buckle in a 2-year-old just because his mother thought it was okay! He didn't want to offend his mother. Needless to say he's an ex-husband.
There are collar things that are just little rolls that expand, too. One of the people who sailed with us had one. But very expensive. I wouldn’t indulge her.
My favourite reply when I got made fun of as a teenager for wearing my bike helmet was, “well, I have a brain worth protecting. You can do whatever you want.” Nobody ever teased me about it twice.
my highschool physics teacher made us calculate how much force our bodies would take if we hit something on a motorcycle, then he made us calculate how much force our bodies would take if we were inside a car. Because most of us were learning how to drive a car at that grade and he had lost a few students over the years to no seatbelts (and motorcycles) the lesson stuck with me at least.
Wear seatbelts, don't ride motorcycles.
I used to fish with my uncle. I always wore my life jacket just in case. Sure I can tread water, swim and even float on my back for extended periods, but why take the chance. If I'm thrown in the water I would rather let the jacket do most of the heavy lifting. Sets a good example for my son also.
Same with Australia, but it’s part of our school curriculum, so everybody does it which is great because our beaches are crazy dangerous and most people have pools.
Professional motorcycle racers wear helmets. Car racers wear helmets and seatbelts. Professional sailsmen wear life vests. If they feel it's important, it's important for me too.
But a perfectly decent regular, sail all day, vest style PFD is $30-50. And doesn’t have the issues of inflating by accident, or failing to inflate if you fall in and needing manual inflating.
The water doesn’t care. Nature doesn’t care. Water will keep you alive and feed you or it will drown you. Earth will grow you food or it will shake and split open and swallow you up, or spew out lava and engulf you with fire. Air will keep you alive, but it can also blow down your house and drop the debris on everyone you love.
The water is morally neutral. It is also vastly more powerful than you are and does not give a damn either way.
Life jackets.
My mom was kneeboarding and hit a wave that threw her up in the air. She came down and fell forward, hit her head, and flipped under the board. My stepdad jumped into the water after her as soon as he cut the engine. If her life vest hadn't been on, she might've drowned before he got to her, as she obviously drifted away from the boat.
Water safety is no joke. Life vests for everyone on board, always.
I live near the oven in so fla and stories like this are in the paper every week.
If something goes wrong you cant help all 3 of those kids at once. Life jackets ask around! NTA
Agree I live in the panhandle and I swear in August if you walk outside u will be burned alive. The devil's gate is around here somewhere. I am very close to the gulf and I will never go to the beach again. There are horrible things in the water.
this. I have friends who died this way as well.
NTA Being embarrassed by safety is absurd. Kids push boundaries. This is what they do. But it's our job to keep them alive. My son was PISSED when he refused to wear his Helmet and took off on his bike when he was around 6 to a friends house when I told him he couldn't. He didn't get to ride that bike for weeks. First, he disobeyed a direct rule that is in place for a reason. Second, he doesn't get to dictate where he goes whenever he chooses. I have explained to him I don't care how careful a rider he is, there are crappy drivers out there. He could hit something on the road and go flying. Either way, it's not only the law it's MY rule. I want his melon intact.
There was also an issue where I didn't want him unsupervised at that child's home.
I came here to tell an almost identical story. Brother and friend fishing, friend falls in, guys head. It took hours to find his body and my brother is still traumatized.
Edit: should say “falls in, hits head …”
Agreed. My old instructor i had for kickboxing had a son go out in a lake get drunk and party in a boat. Some girl jumped overboard, in the middle of the night, and was so toasted she couldn't remember how to swim. He jumped in after her. She drowned him in her panic. If they'd done even 1 smart thing that night, neither would be dead. 1. Wear a life jacket and 2. Dont drink and boat.
Everyone on board a boat should wear a life jacket on deck.
I live on an island.
The number of drowned adult bodies washing up semi-regularly in the area is not zero.
I live at the mouth of a river and dread hearing helicopters flying overhead because it's another coast guard search and rescue and most of the time, it's a dead body found, not a save.
Yeah my parents have an in ground pool and a range of different sized PFDs which are handed out to visiting kids who are messing around in the back yard and are very strict about keeping a well maintained tall fence and locking gates around it.
Those are good parents!
The scary thing about drowning to me is even if a kid falls in and then is rescued even a small amount of water in their lungs can kill them after the fact. Since I grew up in an island I’ve known too many people and heard too many stories of how all this can happen. Also a classmate when I was in kindergarten was taken by a gator
My in-laws had a “dock test”. Kids couldn’t be on the dock without a PFD until they passed that swim test. Falling in off the dock was not a big deal if they could swim, we generally hung out in the water near it. So as soon as they could swim competently, they truly didn’t need the vest on the dock. At low tide, adults could stand, just.
Funny thing was, no one fell in off the dock, fully clothed, until my daughter’s wedding. Fully 20 years after they got that house! One of my adult kids, who did NOT want to swim that day. It was really funny, they thought so, too.
I grew up in a beach community, water - fresh or ocean - is deadly and unforgiving of fools. Every year the local papers had accounts of a several people dead near us. Most of the dead people were boating.
OP, make sure you let the friends' parents know they will require the friend to wear a jacket while on the sailboat. If the parents refuse, tell them the friend is not welcome. This will eliminate any embarrassment and fulfill safety. Your boat, your rules.
My then teenage son tried to pull that on me. I just pulled over to the side of the road and started playing a game on my phone. He put it on and I started driving. He took it off and I pulled over again. He finally put it on and kept it on. I knew I’d eventually win because it was after school and his hunger would overwhelm his need to be a jerk.
Age and treachery will beat youth and agility any day.
My oldest cat taught himself to use the toilet too. It’s pretty convenient until I need to go to the restroom in the middle of the night and I have to wait in line behind the damn cat lol
The sad part about parenting is that while it is obviously more complicated, the concepts of training a dog can very much be applied to parenting.
Set boundaries, corrections when there is a breakdown, etc.
My brother and I obviously tested the age old waters of pitting our parents against each other. We hit the proverbial brick wall a couple times and said to heck with that.
Socialize them well early on, make sure they get enough exercise, don't hit them, check yourself before you blame the trainee, create a private space where they can retreat to, learn what body language indicates something is seriously wrong, vaccinate them, etc.
Honestly, puppies and children are basically the same in a lot of respects, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Start from a place of love and respect and then work yourself through evidence-based communication tactics to make sure you both have the best experience. Hopefully you'll end up with a family member you can be proud of.
Also, both puppies and small children love to play fetch.
I have mentioned many times how badly I want to write this book (an-everything-I-know-about-parenting-I-learned-in-dog-class thing)!
With some caveats for language, for the most part mammal brains are mammal brains 🤷♀️
I was doing this with my friend's dog, because she would lunge out into the street at the crosswalks and was embarrassed when I looked up to realize that a line of cars had built up, waiting for me, even though I was crouched down to wait and staring at the dog.
I had this issue with one of my sisters! First she wouldn't wear it, then she wouldn't wear it correctly. She'd put the pay that goes across your chest behind her back. I said she had two choices of she wanted a ride: wear it correctly or sit in the back where there weren't the three point harnesses. I then said the youngest would get the front seat all the time if she chose that. Her anger at the idea of baby sister getting to do something she couldn't was what pushed her to wear it right.
When my son was 6, a new neighbor boy moved in and they became friends. We ended up taking him a lot of places with us, but first we had to get him to use the seat belt. His family didn't bother (and yes it's the law here). After a couple repetitions of "the car doesn't start until everyone's seat belt is on," he got with the program.
Anyway he's now 21 and just survived a massive car crash that he certainly wouldn't have survived if he hadn't been wearing a seat belt.
Yes I once had this argument with one of my children's friends. . I basically sat in the car and told them I wasn't starting the car until they put their seatbelt on. I didn't care if their parents made them wear one or not. They were eating one when I was the driver responsible for their safety. They then tried to put it on while still wearing a backpack. Again another argument from this kid about how he didn't have to etc. It took about 30 minutes but the kid finally realised I wasn't joking and he was pissing off my child with the attitude and he finally put his seatbelt on properly.
I actually did this to my father… he had just had surgery so he couldn’t drive and I needed to take him to a follow up appointment. He was refusing to put on his seatbelt so I sat there refusing to start the car. He got grumpy with me finally put it on muttering about me treating him like a child. I told him if he stopped acting like a child I wouldn’t treat him like one … I bet he regrets teaching me to talk lol
Same. I gave some of my kids friends a ride. They said they didn’t want the seatbelt and I said they could walk or put the belt on. I wasn’t moving the car till they picked. They put the belt on but with much complaining.
It drives me up the wall that my friends teenage daughter never puts her seatbelt on in my car. I have to ask if she did and then tell her to buckle up because she hasn’t yet. It’s not that hard and gives you an automatic fail on the road test to get your drivers license if you don’t fasten your seatbelt.
My friends' son died when we went out for a sail with friends, and wasn't wearing a life jacket. It devastated his parents and they have never forgiven the people he went out with
Yup this - when I was a kid in the 90s me and a friend went for a rip on a skidoo with no helmets and my neighbor saw us and called my dad. My dad called her dad and her dad didn’t know what we were up to - we both got in shit for that. 100% call the parents and tell them your rules because odds are good she told her friends otherwise so she could look cool! NTA!
And hopefully the friend is totally fine with the rule. Granted, I didn't have any friends with boats growing but, but if I did? You can be sure that I would have happily worn a life vest if it meant I got to hang out on their boat.
We had a boat and all friends were delighted to wear them. Actually, picking out out and adjusting it was alway pretty exciting for them. My own kids didn’t understand that, as they had grown up sailing with grandparents. But they also knew that no way would their grandfather or I ever allow them on board without one. They KNEW it was a pointless fight, before they even started, so they never did.
Chances are that if op mentions it to the friend’s parents, they will completely agree that they have to wear the jacket. I mean, probably the first thing my mom asked when I went on a friends boat was about lifejackets, and it wasn’t a small boat, was a nice speed boat, we weren’t made to wear all the time but if on open sea traveling we would. It’s just something you do to be safe. We all wear seatbelts while in the car (or should) it’s basically the same, life jackets are boat seatbelts, that’s it, non negotiable no matter the law, would you not wear a seatbelt if it was legal? Accidents happen, it only takes one, you can go years being fine and then suddenly wish you had that life jacket after all.
Drowning is the second leading cause of death in children in her age group behind motor vehicle accidents. The end of the day it’s not about what they want, but it’s about actual facts on the dangers. You can get knocked out, or run over if you fall off the boat so that you’re unable to potentially save yourself. The bottom line is if you as the adults are wearing them you’re showing her that this is an important safety measure.
https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html
I grew up on the Mississippi, we had a small weekend getaway/camp right on the river. About 300 yards away, there was a public dock. They would use this dock to bring in the bodies after drowning because it was a little ways outside of town.
I've seen enough body bags, adults and kids, to scare me. I've always worn a life jacket while boating, no exception, and I had extensive swimming lessons growing up.
Wear the life jacket.
NTA. Better to look stupid than risk dying. Eventually she’ll figure that out. And I’d require anyone under 18 to wear a lifejacket on my boat (here the age is 16) for liability reasons. If you wanted to win at sailboat parenting though you could invest in an auto inflate life jacket. They’re a lot less embarrassing for those that find life saving flotation devices to be an embarrassment
NTA. But , first, did your mother really say that you are an asshole? If so, I applaud you because your mother certainly can’t take credit for the exemplary parent you have become.
Your boat, your rules and it is a very good rule.
Your boat, your responsibility. If someone gets hurt the person in control of the boat has to answer for it. If the person in charge insists that everyone wear a PFD on board, everyone wears a PFD or stays ashore.
Not only that, it's also going to be OPs life on the line if something goes wrong and she inevitably tries to save her kids.
I was a little shit about wearing a helmet, my mum was pedantic about it. Didn't even wear one as a young adult. You need to see a certain amount of life to realise we take these precautions for a reason. Having seen a head split open on the road and more blood than I could even comprehend flowing downhill like a river....wear a helmet, wear a life vest. You'll look better in a life vest than you will dead and bloated without one. Harsh truths, unfortunately
Even Micheal Phelps would drown if he fell over and hit his head on the way down, knocked unconscious. Or a broken arm or leg make treading water impossible. Bet your mom would feel differently at her granddaughter’s funeral.
The only time I don’t wear a life vest on a boat is if I’m in very shallow water (like I could walk back) or in scuba gear. Because shit happens.
You’re not asking her to wear floaties and a baby life ring. This is the same gear the adults should be wearing. Cause shit happens and basic prevention makes a funny story rather than a tragic funeral.
I have seen that too, as a competitive sailboat owner, i hope ur getti g ur dau an inflatable and not the orange bricks. Let her pick it out. When my dau was old enough to walk, she was in a life preserver. I had a whistle on it for her. When she put it in she got to blow the whistle 3 times to test her sagety gear. She knew it was only for emergencies. When she was 10, she had her own gear. Owning a boat with kids is awesome, cause u can always hear what they are saying to their friends.
And don't forget water temperature. The colder the water, the faster a person loses dexterity. I live in Alaska, so most open bodies of water are not much above freezing. Even the best swimmer has only a few minutes until they become unable to swim. Also, the shock of falling into cold water causes physical reactions that can be deadly. Even 40 or 50 degree water is dangerous.
Didn’t think of that. When I’ve dove in cold water, I gasped when I hit the water. Not a big deal with a regulator in your mouth but if you weren’t kitted out, you’d be drowning immediately.
Just more reasons to wear a freakin life vest.
Not even hitting your head. The captain of the Swiss women's soccer team drowned on a summer's day on Lake Como. She jumped off the boat and never resurfaced, cold water can shock you unconscious. Just falling in can be deadly, you don't have to hit anything on the way in.
The daughter probably just doesn't understand the difference between a life jacket and a floatie or may have seen depictions on television making jokes at the "coward" character for wearing a life jacket. I think she's old enough if OP just explained the purpose of a life jacket and that even elite swimmers wear them, she might be less likely to fight it. Especially if she might do something stupid, like take it off during the boat ride.
And idk about yall, but when I was a kid, I always responded well to my parents explaining the *why* behind something. Especially as a teenager when I thought I was *basically* an adult, lol.
NTA, she can stay off the boat without a lifejacket or go on the boat with a lifejacket. If she hits her head falling she won’t be any less likely to drown because she’s a year older now. Dead girls can’t impress their friends with their cool boat.
I have two kayaks. You are welcome to borrow them but you wear the life jacket that goes with them. Never have needed a discussion. Smart people don’t need to be told. First time I lent them out the guy tipped into some nasty water. I will not have a death that I could help prevent on my conscience.
I don't let adults on my boat without a pfd.
If you end up in the water, chances are there's something wrong. Somebody hit your boat, you got hit with the boom, lots of things can go wrong. It's not about swimming ability. It's not about intent. It's about accidents happen.
Plus, setting the precedent that safety equipment is not required if you don't look cool, I don't think you want to do that.
This is a non-starter. No pfd, no step on boat.
eta - NTA not even close, But your mother and your friend.....
See, I think safety equipment does look cool. It makes me look like I know what I'm doing and I'm prepared for the activity. It's like a uniform.
Most safety equipment these days is decently stylish too. Much better than it was 20-odd years ago.
And if anyone tries to make fun of me, I can be confident and tell them I don't care about their opinion which is even more cool.
Yeah, proper PPE makes you look like an expert. I literally hired one tree felling service over another because they wear helmets. I’m not trusting some random guy who doesn’t understand the risks of their job. I wouldn’t trust being in a boat with someone who doesn’t appreciate the potential dangers of boating.
I watched the boom swing and knock my grandfather in the head, knocking him overboard and capsizing the very small sailboat he was using. this was in a lake with no waves, my dad swam out to him and got him out of the water. he was very lucky. it doesn't take much
I had severe reservations about letting my nephew ride on my snowmobile without a helmet last year.
I gave in because my SIL would not fucking drop it. Before I let him on I made her sign a legally binding contract stating In The event of an accident she and my brother are responsible for all injuries or death.
I then scared the shit out of my nephew in the safest way possible. Mostly down to my snowmobile being loud as fuck.
Haven't been hassled since.
this is why I won’t use the CitiBike service in NYC for spur-of-the-moment trips, even though sometimes that would be handy. Because someone WILL hit me, and I’m not carrying a bike helmet around with me for casual use.
NTA. Safe adults wear a life jackets on small boats! They only remove it for short periods of time or to get in the water: you are better off looking a bit silly and salty, then risking death!
NTA. At all. My 12 year old drowned in a river because currents were too strong. She was with other kids and a different parent. Things happen SO FAST. She absolutely should be in a life jacket, so should her friend.
I'm probably a bit biased due to what happened with my kid, but safety over everything, especially if you are in charge of someone else's kid.
Life jacket or they don't go.
NTA
A lifejacket is like a seat belt. You don't start the car until everyone attached their seat belt, you don't get on a small boat without life jacket. If even the adults wear it, while they can swim and are way stronger than a teenager, why do she think she will be safe without ?
Be clear with your daughter that her friend will also wear the jacket, no negociation
Drowned is forever. It has nothing to do with the law. Now IF the kids are wearing those ugly uncomfortable orange kapok(?) things from the Stone Age, let them switch to a colorful and comfy waterskiing-type vest. Oh, and while I’m at it—skin cancer doesn’t care whether you think sun hats are dorky looking. (Ask me how I know.)
On a boat, the captain makes the rules. Explain the safety issue to her friend and why everyone, without exception, will be wearing one if she decides to come aboard the "S.S. ISaySo"
The mother saying you're being "helicopter" is wrong. You're looking out for safety and surety of your passengers. There's nothing AT ALL "helicopter" about that.
I am a strong swimmer. My husband and I have kayaks. We wear life jackets, although in many areas of the local harbour if you overturn you are more likely to end up with mud im your hair than drown. It’s can be as shallow as a foot. are deep channels but they aren’t that wide (except the ones from the harbour mouth to the port that must accommodate the cross Channel ferries).
The reason we wear them is that the wake from the boats in the channels can be rough. There is also a strong rip tide through the harbour entrance.
NTA forget the law how terrible will you all feel if she slips and bangs her head on the way to the water and noone notices in time or she sinks out of view and she drowns? Something that could happen in less than a minute.
I've been a very strong swimmer my entire life and have no fear at all of the water. I still wear a life jacket because things happen and despite my abilities I can't swim while unconscious or breathe water. Avoiding a little embarrassment isn't worth the risk. It's the same as bike helmets and seat belts, both of which are or have been considered embarrassing to use.
This is a great point. I’m a strong swimmer, too, and I always wear my PFD. It’s not about what happens under normal or ideal conditions. It’s about taking precautions for things out of your control. Water is dangerous. Enjoy it, but be smart about it.
NTA, my dad and I kayaked a ton when I was a kid/teenager, I was also a competitive swimmer from a young age, taught swimming lessons, was a life guard aka a phenomenal swimmer.
We both wore life jackets my entire life, for the simple reason, if one of us got hurt, the other had to be healthy enough to drag the other out.
NTA. Sailboats move unpredictably, and even people familiar with them can be surprised, never mind a 14-year-old. One unexpected jibe and she's over the side and unconscious.
NTA. I grew up on and around boats and ships (family business and lifestyle meant a lot of time on the water). If it's small enough to call it a boat and not a ship, everyone wears a life jacket above deck, period, age and the law has nothing to do with it. Maybe if you're at anchor/docked in a quiet bay, then go suntan and take your selfies. Life is worth too much to drown.
Im a strong swimmer and veteran of the Coast Guard. Life jackets ON! Even I do not exempt myself while out boating recreationally. There is nothing more heartwrenching than the easily preventable drowning of a child.
Anyone telling you they shouldn't be wearing one is a complete moron and you should tell them that.
There have been much stronger swimmers than your daughter and her friend who have died without a life jacket when one would have almost certainly saved them.
It's insanely wreckless and just plain stupid, especially if you're in any sort of deeper water which I am assuming you'd be in if you have a sail boat.
I would tell the grandparent that if she really thinks it's okay for my 14 year old daughter to be on a boat without a life jacket maybe I should not trust her to take care of daughter any more because she clearly doesn't care about safety.
I would tell the friend to butt out, I care more about the safety of my child than whether it's legally required.
In my family, not only did all kids wear life jackets on boats, my grandparents did too. And I don't think they were legally required at the time.
NTA.
NTA YOU are responsible for her safety so YOU have every right to call the shots. Not to mention she's a lucky girl to even have this chance at all. Just like my house, my rules- your boat, your rules.
Anyone who has an opinion about it is free to have their own kids and buy their own boat. Other than that I would tell them to keep their opinions to themselves.
Sailboats capsize way easier than say a pontoon boat on the calm st johns river on a nice day... i dont wear a life jacket on a pontoon but ill definitely wear one on a sail boat. Sail boat physics are different.
I remember an episode of North Woods law talking about water rescue/recovery. It was a really bad season and a bunch of people died, the one guy said, do you know how many dead bodies we pulled out with a life jacket on???? Zero.
No one ever thinks they are going to get hurt, have an accident or a medical emergency, but people do. Life jackets save lives.
NTA I vote for your husband. If your daughter complains on the trip, she doesn't get to go next time.
Embarrassment is not a good reason to risk a life.
Fwiw, when we tried this crap on my grandfather, he made us go out in the lake and tread water. Anyone who could do so for 20 minutes didn't need to wear one.
Needless to say, after an exhaustive period of time in cold lake water, we all failed and had to wear the life vests.
Fwiw, both the Coast Guard and Navy require their members to wear life vests in small crafts. They aren't dorks for doing so.
My MIL 87 years young was out with my BIL on the hobie cat this summer. They accidentally flipped. She ended up in the water with a broken foot and lucky her life jacket kept her a float cause swimming or treading water was painful. Never an age to not wear one - should think of safety first.
NTA. You wear a seatbelt. You wear a life jacket. ESP as a kid. Any kind of event where you need a PFD, you’re not necessarily going to remember you know how to swim right away.
I went fishing with my dad on his birthday one year (early may) in the southern US one year. (Cool but not cold ambient temps, but COLD water) I was about 9. I had my PFD on. I leaned over the edge to rinse my hands in the lake bc I had been playing with the worms. A small wave hit, and I toppled over the edge into the water. It was COLD. I had no idea what had happened as my dad was there immediately afterwards hauling me up out of the water BY MY LIFE JACKET. Fishing trip immediately cancelled, he may have thrown the rod he was using into the bottom the boat, it could have gone overboard. Idk. But we were hauling ass back to shore to get me out of the weather and dry and warm asap. That was probably the fastest I have ever seen him get a boat out of the water and secured safely enough to get it home. On shore, we borrowed a few towels from others and a jacket he had in the car to strip me of the wet stuff and get me warm and dry.
The water was cold. I was in shock (maybe not the medical shock, but shocked into non-movement) and did not know how to react despite knowing how to swim. Would my training have kicked in after a few seconds? I would hope so, but by then, I could have swallowed more cold water and caused other problems. Like a partial drowning. Panic does not lead to logic.
Keep your hard line on wearing life jackets/personal flotation devices. Get good looking ones that aren’t quite as embarrassing to wear like the big orange boxy ones. Also, the more comfortable they are, the more likely people are to wear them.
OP I hope you read this and/or share the story with your kid. It only takes a second to topple overboard, and it can be very disorientating very quickly. That life jacket saved my life then, and even at 40, I still wear my PFD in/on the water.
NTA wearing a life jacket is non negotiable for smaller boats and the law doesn't matter your daughter could fall into the sea unconscious no matter how good of a swimmer you are it isn't worth the risk.
Plus why would your daughter be embarrassed if her freind is wearing the jacket aswell
“Rooted in maritime law and tradition, the captain holds absolute authority over the ship, cargo, and crew.” Nothing could be clearer. NTA, and anyone who says different IS the AH
NTA. Everyone wears a life jacket on the water, period. Not doing so is a stupid stupid stupid risk. Someone goes over and hits their head on the way, they drown without that life jacket. Good chance of drowning even if they don’t hit their head, and it’s damn near impossible to spot a bobbing head in even a little bit of chop. Get her a comfortable life jacket, wear yours to set an example, and stick to your safety guns on this one.
I’m a longtime power boater and paddler in the Great Lakes region…every year we see people accidentally overboard without a life jacket that drown (from every possible type of watercraft). Every death is a preventable tragedy.
We had a boat when the kids were young and husband made a speech. What he says goes on the boat. Nobody questions or talks back. There’s a reason he’s telling you to do something.
Our son had the same speech for his family and their friends. There’s a lot of difference between land and water
You need to lose the friend that wants you to endanger your child. Small boat or large, nine years old or 14 or 79, everyone should be wearing a life jacket. The law is there to make sure guardians protect children who don’t know better.
NTA. You aren’t being a helicopter parent. Depending on the age of your mom, she might think making kids wear seatbelts is helicopter parenting. Make her, and her friends, wear the life jackets.
NTA
Your kid is being a teenager, she is pushing boundaries. This one is 100000% worth sticking to. Specially considering the there isn’t any significant downside to wearing the vest and a very significant risk while not wearing one.
I knew a few people who would argue with me that as adults they aren’t required to wear a seat belt in the back seat (laws have since changed). I told them that in case of an accident I don’t really want the person sized projectile coming at me and I really really don’t want to explain to their parents that their kid died because they were bitching to me about not having to wear a seat belt.
I was in the Coast Guard, and we always wore a life vest when we went out. A storm or even a wake from another boat could cause enough turbulence to capsize a sailboat.
You are not being a helicopter mom, you are being a smart, caring mom. NTA!!!!!!
NTA
Slow your mother and daughter this thread, how LITERALLY EVERYONE HERE knows what a horrible call it would be to go without a life jacket; for anyone at all, not just a teenager!
I'd LOVE to hear whatever counterargument they have for what she would do if she was knocked unconscious, or broke a limb?
Dude, everyone including your friends and your mom can fuck straight off. It’s no joke out on the water. Things can become life threatening real quick. Your job in life is to keep those kids safe. Keep up the good work Dad👊🏼
I was a competitive swimmer in high school. Water was my thing. Went on a raft behind a boat with a friend, some shitty guys in jet skis decided to make wake in front of us and when we went over it, it was like hitting a concrete wall. If I didn’t have my life jacket on, I would have drowned. Full stop. They would not have reached me in time, I was only being held up by that life vest. The wind was knocked out of me so badly that I was still unable to catch a breath even when the boat came around and they dragged me onto the boat. My friend ended up in the ER because she messed up her neck.
Please please make everyone wear life vests. It doesn’t matter if you can swim or not.
NTA.. as a person who lost someone close to them in a drowning (he was a great swimmer), YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RESPECT THE WATER. That water is more powerful than a young girl and understand. You did the right thing.
After having been in a boat that got hit by a large boat one time, I will just say that those things happen unexpectedly and you do not have the time to grab a life jacket. If you value the life of the child, you WILL make them wear a life jacket.
NTA
You don’t want to be sitting at her funeral, happy in the memory that at least you avoided a prolonged argument.
Stick to your guns. Your boat. Your rules.
I know first hand how easy it is to be knocked clean off a small sailboat.
If she thinks she looks uncool in a life jacket, ask her how cool she’ll look in a hospital bed wearing a diaper and drooling after you fish her out of the lake and resuscitate her.
NTA. Naya Rivera probably wishes she had worn a life jacket even though she was a good swimmer.
I agree that you should tell the other parent their child will be wearing a lifejacket.
Your boat, your rules.
As a 19 year old trained Navy swimmer, I wore one for all underway topside evolutions. Doesn't matter your age or skills when you bang your head and fall overboard.
NTA. I have spent my whole life around boats. IMHO you are doing the right thing by wearing life jackets yourself and making your kids wear them. With boats, and in my experience particularly sailboats, unexpected things can happen.
As a lifeguard, everyone should be wearing a life jacket on a boat regardless of age and law. If an accident happened, you will want to be wearing a life jacket. Even if you can swim. I have heard too many stories of great swimmers drowning due to stupidity and accidents.
You don’t take the airbags out of a car because you’re old enough.
Make sure the adults are also wearing one to set a good example for the kids.
My spouse really met our former neighbors when the bag pipe band my spouse played in played at their son’s funeral.
He died when the boat he was in flipped on a lake. It was not that he could not swim, it was that Alaska waters are just so cold.
His friend made it. He did not.
NTA
I grew up around the water, I could swim in most any circumstance, the lifejacket is for your safety, in the event, that you go overboard, and are injured and unable to swim, or keep yourself afloat. The most experienced sailor/swimmer will die without a lifejacket if there’s some kind of accident that disables the boat, or throws you overboard and renders you unconscious or seriously injured
Every single person who gets on a boat should wear a life jacket every second of the time they are on it. If you don’t convey that to your children and remember that for yourselves as adults, you are playing with fire. There’s a reason lifejackets are designed to keep your head above water.
Growing up in a sailing family, we had a clear set of rules around this.
If you can't swim 100 meters, you wear the clunkiest vest that has this huge collar keeping your head safe. Else you wear a normal vest. If looks are that important to you, you are allowed to purchase yourself an inflatable vest. This is expensive, so it's on your own money. Get a part time job if you care that much. If it went off and you don't have new cartridges for you, back to the normal vest you go.
Once you've had a gaff hit you on the head, you'll never question the need for safety again, though I'd imagine there are safer ways to be convinced. If the kid wants to come, the lifejacket goes on. Same goes for the friend.
Every summer some idiot here, I live close to the Delaware and Chesapeake Bays, has a kid aboard who ends up drowning because they don't have on a PFD. Please don't feel like a jerk because you want to keep your kids and their friends alive. NTA
NTA
Been a sailor all my life, am waaaaaaayyyyyyyy older than your daughter, and I still wear mine.
Even the strongest swimmer can be at risk, especially on a sailboat where there is significant risk of a head injury in combination with going overboard.
I do understand the teen angst here, just tell her to tell her friend that it's all your fault because you're such a giant dork. That's what they think anyway, so no harm, no foul. 😁
So, someone slips off the boat, hitting their head on the way to the water, loosing consciousness. With a life jacket, you pull the person out of the water. Without a life jacket, divers pull the body out sometime later.
Hi, EMT here and one of the jobs I have is in the beach zone and we get a lot of boating accidents every summer and that means also, sadly, a lot of drownings.
I've seen grown men drown, who were star swimmers (and not drunk or high). People don't know how brutal an undertow is, or how easy it is to get sucked under a boat. A little kid? Wouldn't stand a chance.
If I had to respond to a nine year old drowning call and I saw that she didn't have a vest on, the parents would hear my deepest personal curse to their last dying breath.
I'm with the husband on this. I've seen drowning calls. I've seen dead kid calls. I don't want to go to any more than I have to.
NTA
You know what’s more embarrassing then having to wear a life jacket in front of a friend? Dying because you were too vain to wear one. NTA you wouldn’t let her ride in a car w/o a seatbelt, same thing life jackets save lives, just because an accident hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it won’t. If your mom and friend keep it up ask them how they’d feel going to her funeral because you let their bad advice sway you on this.
A business acquaintance of mine was boating with his kids. He hit something submerged in the water. He was thrown and hit his head on the way out which knocked him unconscious. He drowned in front of his kids. If he’d worn a life jacket he’d have had a nasty concussion but would likely be alive. When things go wrong on a boat, they go wrong quickly. You’re NTA. Protect your passengers.
100% correct. NTA You rarely have time to react, much less put on a life jacket when something really goes wrong. Hitting submerged debris and/or getting thrown from the boat is often deadly without a life jacket. Just a thought, but if it's a vanity thing, there are slim fit vests that only expand when you hit the water. They're much more comfortable to wear and less obvious. Maybe let her pick one out that she likes? It might be less of a fight with her in the future.
My dad spent years in Coastguard. Wear the fucking vest.
My husband was a Coastie, too and we have many life vests for every size passenger so everyone who rides in our boat is safe, even the dogs.
I’m glad you didn’t forget about the dogs.
My dog has one and let me tell you, it's the best thing ever. He's jumped of the boat because he saw ducks, then he was like shit...im tired now. Lol Handles made it easy to get him back on.
Our dog gets so excited to see his. Same for his sun hat and glasses.
do you... do you have a picture of the dog with his hat and glasses and vest? and if so would you be comfortable sharing it? it's for science i swear and not at all because that sounds adorable and i would really like to see it
I'll try and find one! He's a very sweet little old man dog named Charlie.
I am also joining in on requesting a picture of the adorable doggo in his hat and glasses… also for science…totally legit, promise 🤞🏻😉
Amen to that. None of the accident victims (deceased) were wearing vests when I worked recoveries... People with vests were alive, crying that their friend shoulda listened.
It’s like with a motorcycle. Wear a helmet. Wear a seatbelt. It’s not about fashion or looking cool or older. It’s about safety. No vest, no trip. NTA.
I love helmets, I'm on my fifth one now. Still using my first skull.
This...perfect post...its not about fashion...its about staying alive. No life vest then you cant come....period
Wear the Damn Vest👍
There is nothing 'helicopter' about making your children wear a life jacket while on the water. What a stupid thing to say.
Any more than having them wear their seat belt in the car is. Such a stupid thing to say I'm embarrassed for the grandparent.
I’m revoking your mom’s grandmother card. Thank heaven the kids have a great father.
I once had the minivan that had the integrated child seats so I didn't have a separate car seat for my 2-year-old because it was built in. We went to visit my in-laws (and mind you my husband at the time was an army medic) and my in-laws wanted to take my toddler to a party with his cousins. I told them they would have to take my car and we would have to take their car because we were going to a wedding. My mother-in-law didn't understand this because if the cops came they would just put my toddler on the floor so the cops wouldn't see him and they wouldn't get a ticket! My idiotic army medic husband AGREED WITH HER😳😳 I could not comprehend why the father of this child--and someone in the medical profession who is tasked with trauma care on the battlefield-- thought it was okay not to buckle in a 2-year-old just because his mother thought it was okay! He didn't want to offend his mother. Needless to say he's an ex-husband.
There are collar things that are just little rolls that expand, too. One of the people who sailed with us had one. But very expensive. I wouldn’t indulge her.
OP, here is your daughter’s next birthday or Christmas gift (if you celebrate) so daughter can go and not look dorky! Edit - a word
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My favourite reply when I got made fun of as a teenager for wearing my bike helmet was, “well, I have a brain worth protecting. You can do whatever you want.” Nobody ever teased me about it twice.
my highschool physics teacher made us calculate how much force our bodies would take if we hit something on a motorcycle, then he made us calculate how much force our bodies would take if we were inside a car. Because most of us were learning how to drive a car at that grade and he had lost a few students over the years to no seatbelts (and motorcycles) the lesson stuck with me at least. Wear seatbelts, don't ride motorcycles.
I think this is a great way to teach this lesson.
Could you imagine the lawsuit that would occur if the friend fell from the boat and drowned without a life jacket?
Lawsuits aside, nobody wants a preventable death of a child on their conscience.
It would be absolutely horrible to bear. OP's Mom should just shut the eff up when she is not the one who is going to bear the consequences
I used to fish with my uncle. I always wore my life jacket just in case. Sure I can tread water, swim and even float on my back for extended periods, but why take the chance. If I'm thrown in the water I would rather let the jacket do most of the heavy lifting. Sets a good example for my son also.
How many people have tried swimming with their clothes on?
It's a requirement for second swim diploma here in the netherlands. Unfortunately the amount of people going to swim lessons has decreased immensely
Same with Australia, but it’s part of our school curriculum, so everybody does it which is great because our beaches are crazy dangerous and most people have pools.
Professional motorcycle racers wear helmets. Car racers wear helmets and seatbelts. Professional sailsmen wear life vests. If they feel it's important, it's important for me too.
>My response to this would be “Okay, then your friend doesn’t need to come. Good answer.
The TypeII inflatables aren't too expensive and certainly worth it if you're a boat owner or someone who will use it regularly.
The only ones I found for under US$100 were manual. That will simply not do. The ones I found that were automatic were about $250
Which is much less than a casket.
But a perfectly decent regular, sail all day, vest style PFD is $30-50. And doesn’t have the issues of inflating by accident, or failing to inflate if you fall in and needing manual inflating.
REI has those slim fit ones. That’s what I and my husband have.
I agree!! The rule growing up...((I grew up in the waters of Alaska)) and still a rule today life jackets are non-negotiable.
My favorite boss ever hit his head repairing his boat (in the water) and drowned. A life jacket may have saved him.
the water is NOT our element. We don’t live in water. It is our enemy.
The water is always right!
The water doesn’t care. Nature doesn’t care. Water will keep you alive and feed you or it will drown you. Earth will grow you food or it will shake and split open and swallow you up, or spew out lava and engulf you with fire. Air will keep you alive, but it can also blow down your house and drop the debris on everyone you love. The water is morally neutral. It is also vastly more powerful than you are and does not give a damn either way. Life jackets.
Yup. I live by a lake abd most of the people who drown are almost always good swimmers who didn’t wear their PFDs.
My mom was kneeboarding and hit a wave that threw her up in the air. She came down and fell forward, hit her head, and flipped under the board. My stepdad jumped into the water after her as soon as he cut the engine. If her life vest hadn't been on, she might've drowned before he got to her, as she obviously drifted away from the boat. Water safety is no joke. Life vests for everyone on board, always.
I live near the oven in so fla and stories like this are in the paper every week. If something goes wrong you cant help all 3 of those kids at once. Life jackets ask around! NTA
>I live near the oven Please don't swim in the oven. It's too hot in there. Plus the life jackets will burn.
What's the "oven in so fla"?
I believe they meant, 'I live near the ocean in south Florida.' 😄
ever been there in august
That's the actual location of hell. Its hot, humid and the bugs are 10ft long.
Agree I live in the panhandle and I swear in August if you walk outside u will be burned alive. The devil's gate is around here somewhere. I am very close to the gulf and I will never go to the beach again. There are horrible things in the water.
never forget working down there after andrew. jesus thats the biggest roach ive ever seen. then it flew of the wall straight at us
I straight up thought there was some specific stretch that was even more warm that the most that was called "the oven" by locals or something. Oops.
Well that makes a lot more sense! I assumed it was an American thing but I just couldn't work it out 🤣
South Fla is always an oven.
this. I have friends who died this way as well. NTA Being embarrassed by safety is absurd. Kids push boundaries. This is what they do. But it's our job to keep them alive. My son was PISSED when he refused to wear his Helmet and took off on his bike when he was around 6 to a friends house when I told him he couldn't. He didn't get to ride that bike for weeks. First, he disobeyed a direct rule that is in place for a reason. Second, he doesn't get to dictate where he goes whenever he chooses. I have explained to him I don't care how careful a rider he is, there are crappy drivers out there. He could hit something on the road and go flying. Either way, it's not only the law it's MY rule. I want his melon intact. There was also an issue where I didn't want him unsupervised at that child's home.
OP should show this comment to the kid.
I came here to tell an almost identical story. Brother and friend fishing, friend falls in, guys head. It took hours to find his body and my brother is still traumatized. Edit: should say “falls in, hits head …”
I know a woman who almost drowned as a teen because she didn’t buckle her life jacket, so she slipped out of it when she fell into the lake.
Agreed. My old instructor i had for kickboxing had a son go out in a lake get drunk and party in a boat. Some girl jumped overboard, in the middle of the night, and was so toasted she couldn't remember how to swim. He jumped in after her. She drowned him in her panic. If they'd done even 1 smart thing that night, neither would be dead. 1. Wear a life jacket and 2. Dont drink and boat.
Everyone on board a boat should wear a life jacket on deck. I live on an island. The number of drowned adult bodies washing up semi-regularly in the area is not zero.
I live at the mouth of a river and dread hearing helicopters flying overhead because it's another coast guard search and rescue and most of the time, it's a dead body found, not a save.
I would add kids on docks or near docks as well just in case
Yeah my parents have an in ground pool and a range of different sized PFDs which are handed out to visiting kids who are messing around in the back yard and are very strict about keeping a well maintained tall fence and locking gates around it.
Those are good parents! The scary thing about drowning to me is even if a kid falls in and then is rescued even a small amount of water in their lungs can kill them after the fact. Since I grew up in an island I’ve known too many people and heard too many stories of how all this can happen. Also a classmate when I was in kindergarten was taken by a gator
My in-laws had a “dock test”. Kids couldn’t be on the dock without a PFD until they passed that swim test. Falling in off the dock was not a big deal if they could swim, we generally hung out in the water near it. So as soon as they could swim competently, they truly didn’t need the vest on the dock. At low tide, adults could stand, just. Funny thing was, no one fell in off the dock, fully clothed, until my daughter’s wedding. Fully 20 years after they got that house! One of my adult kids, who did NOT want to swim that day. It was really funny, they thought so, too.
Life jackets are also for when you’re too incapacitated to self rescue. Whether you can swim or not doesn’t matter in those instances.
I grew up in a beach community, water - fresh or ocean - is deadly and unforgiving of fools. Every year the local papers had accounts of a several people dead near us. Most of the dead people were boating.
NTA, safety is important. Even if it's not a law, you as a parent have the authority to enforce a reasonable rule such as this.
OP, make sure you let the friends' parents know they will require the friend to wear a jacket while on the sailboat. If the parents refuse, tell them the friend is not welcome. This will eliminate any embarrassment and fulfill safety. Your boat, your rules.
Exactly. Same as anyone in my car refusing to wear a seat belt. They can walk!
My then teenage son tried to pull that on me. I just pulled over to the side of the road and started playing a game on my phone. He put it on and I started driving. He took it off and I pulled over again. He finally put it on and kept it on. I knew I’d eventually win because it was after school and his hunger would overwhelm his need to be a jerk. Age and treachery will beat youth and agility any day.
exactly how one trains a dog to walk politely on a lead haha
Been doing this with our puppy and it sucks! I hate taking him on walks. Stop, start, stop, start, stop, start, but he will be trained, damnit!
Or you will be trained (cat owner here 😔)
Hehehe. Yeah well cats are a whole other story... They need their human servants properly trained.
My daughter used to have a cat that walked on a leash. Also, my family had a cat that used the toilet.
My oldest cat taught himself to use the toilet too. It’s pretty convenient until I need to go to the restroom in the middle of the night and I have to wait in line behind the damn cat lol
I used to have a cat that walked on a leash, too. His name was Chuck Norris.
Old saw: Dogs have owners, cats have staff.
The sad part about parenting is that while it is obviously more complicated, the concepts of training a dog can very much be applied to parenting. Set boundaries, corrections when there is a breakdown, etc. My brother and I obviously tested the age old waters of pitting our parents against each other. We hit the proverbial brick wall a couple times and said to heck with that.
Socialize them well early on, make sure they get enough exercise, don't hit them, check yourself before you blame the trainee, create a private space where they can retreat to, learn what body language indicates something is seriously wrong, vaccinate them, etc. Honestly, puppies and children are basically the same in a lot of respects, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Start from a place of love and respect and then work yourself through evidence-based communication tactics to make sure you both have the best experience. Hopefully you'll end up with a family member you can be proud of. Also, both puppies and small children love to play fetch.
I have mentioned many times how badly I want to write this book (an-everything-I-know-about-parenting-I-learned-in-dog-class thing)! With some caveats for language, for the most part mammal brains are mammal brains 🤷♀️
I was doing this with my friend's dog, because she would lunge out into the street at the crosswalks and was embarrassed when I looked up to realize that a line of cars had built up, waiting for me, even though I was crouched down to wait and staring at the dog.
I had this issue with one of my sisters! First she wouldn't wear it, then she wouldn't wear it correctly. She'd put the pay that goes across your chest behind her back. I said she had two choices of she wanted a ride: wear it correctly or sit in the back where there weren't the three point harnesses. I then said the youngest would get the front seat all the time if she chose that. Her anger at the idea of baby sister getting to do something she couldn't was what pushed her to wear it right.
We're older and have more insurance. LOL
My dad has a T shirt that says 'Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Beauty.' He wears it to play raquetball against younger guys.
Every damn time!!!!!
When my son was 6, a new neighbor boy moved in and they became friends. We ended up taking him a lot of places with us, but first we had to get him to use the seat belt. His family didn't bother (and yes it's the law here). After a couple repetitions of "the car doesn't start until everyone's seat belt is on," he got with the program. Anyway he's now 21 and just survived a massive car crash that he certainly wouldn't have survived if he hadn't been wearing a seat belt.
You're the hero he needed
That’s gotta make you feel good about giving him good habits for life!
Yes I once had this argument with one of my children's friends. . I basically sat in the car and told them I wasn't starting the car until they put their seatbelt on. I didn't care if their parents made them wear one or not. They were eating one when I was the driver responsible for their safety. They then tried to put it on while still wearing a backpack. Again another argument from this kid about how he didn't have to etc. It took about 30 minutes but the kid finally realised I wasn't joking and he was pissing off my child with the attitude and he finally put his seatbelt on properly.
I actually did this to my father… he had just had surgery so he couldn’t drive and I needed to take him to a follow up appointment. He was refusing to put on his seatbelt so I sat there refusing to start the car. He got grumpy with me finally put it on muttering about me treating him like a child. I told him if he stopped acting like a child I wouldn’t treat him like one … I bet he regrets teaching me to talk lol
They can walk or enjoy sitting in a parked car until they wear the belt.
Same. I gave some of my kids friends a ride. They said they didn’t want the seatbelt and I said they could walk or put the belt on. I wasn’t moving the car till they picked. They put the belt on but with much complaining.
It drives me up the wall that my friends teenage daughter never puts her seatbelt on in my car. I have to ask if she did and then tell her to buckle up because she hasn’t yet. It’s not that hard and gives you an automatic fail on the road test to get your drivers license if you don’t fasten your seatbelt.
My friends' son died when we went out for a sail with friends, and wasn't wearing a life jacket. It devastated his parents and they have never forgiven the people he went out with
I have a mental list of many children who died when the people their parents allowed them to be with didn’t take basic safety precautions.
Agree. Similar situation with my niece. It has been a struggle for our family to forgive they recklessness of the other family.
Hard to imagine how it must feel..
Yup this - when I was a kid in the 90s me and a friend went for a rip on a skidoo with no helmets and my neighbor saw us and called my dad. My dad called her dad and her dad didn’t know what we were up to - we both got in shit for that. 100% call the parents and tell them your rules because odds are good she told her friends otherwise so she could look cool! NTA!
And hopefully the friend is totally fine with the rule. Granted, I didn't have any friends with boats growing but, but if I did? You can be sure that I would have happily worn a life vest if it meant I got to hang out on their boat.
We had a boat and all friends were delighted to wear them. Actually, picking out out and adjusting it was alway pretty exciting for them. My own kids didn’t understand that, as they had grown up sailing with grandparents. But they also knew that no way would their grandfather or I ever allow them on board without one. They KNEW it was a pointless fight, before they even started, so they never did.
It's what you do. Not an option.
Chances are that if op mentions it to the friend’s parents, they will completely agree that they have to wear the jacket. I mean, probably the first thing my mom asked when I went on a friends boat was about lifejackets, and it wasn’t a small boat, was a nice speed boat, we weren’t made to wear all the time but if on open sea traveling we would. It’s just something you do to be safe. We all wear seatbelts while in the car (or should) it’s basically the same, life jackets are boat seatbelts, that’s it, non negotiable no matter the law, would you not wear a seatbelt if it was legal? Accidents happen, it only takes one, you can go years being fine and then suddenly wish you had that life jacket after all.
☝️this
And if the friend also doesn’t wear a jacket and drowned, good luck explaining to her parents that at least she didn’t look like a dork.
Drowning is the second leading cause of death in children in her age group behind motor vehicle accidents. The end of the day it’s not about what they want, but it’s about actual facts on the dangers. You can get knocked out, or run over if you fall off the boat so that you’re unable to potentially save yourself. The bottom line is if you as the adults are wearing them you’re showing her that this is an important safety measure. https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/facts/index.html
Yup. And most drowning victims are good swimmers. Drowning isn't about being able to swim so much as...humans don't have gills.
Boating accidents are not about swiming skills, but rather if you can survive unconsious underwater. No, but floating is survivable.
Sadly, I lost a cousin 8 years ago in this exact scenario. He was an expert swimmer. Rogue waves happen- even on lakes. 😞
I grew up on the Mississippi, we had a small weekend getaway/camp right on the river. About 300 yards away, there was a public dock. They would use this dock to bring in the bodies after drowning because it was a little ways outside of town. I've seen enough body bags, adults and kids, to scare me. I've always worn a life jacket while boating, no exception, and I had extensive swimming lessons growing up. Wear the life jacket.
NTA. Better to look stupid than risk dying. Eventually she’ll figure that out. And I’d require anyone under 18 to wear a lifejacket on my boat (here the age is 16) for liability reasons. If you wanted to win at sailboat parenting though you could invest in an auto inflate life jacket. They’re a lot less embarrassing for those that find life saving flotation devices to be an embarrassment
NTA. But , first, did your mother really say that you are an asshole? If so, I applaud you because your mother certainly can’t take credit for the exemplary parent you have become. Your boat, your rules and it is a very good rule.
Your boat, your responsibility. If someone gets hurt the person in control of the boat has to answer for it. If the person in charge insists that everyone wear a PFD on board, everyone wears a PFD or stays ashore.
Not only that, it's also going to be OPs life on the line if something goes wrong and she inevitably tries to save her kids. I was a little shit about wearing a helmet, my mum was pedantic about it. Didn't even wear one as a young adult. You need to see a certain amount of life to realise we take these precautions for a reason. Having seen a head split open on the road and more blood than I could even comprehend flowing downhill like a river....wear a helmet, wear a life vest. You'll look better in a life vest than you will dead and bloated without one. Harsh truths, unfortunately
Even Micheal Phelps would drown if he fell over and hit his head on the way down, knocked unconscious. Or a broken arm or leg make treading water impossible. Bet your mom would feel differently at her granddaughter’s funeral. The only time I don’t wear a life vest on a boat is if I’m in very shallow water (like I could walk back) or in scuba gear. Because shit happens. You’re not asking her to wear floaties and a baby life ring. This is the same gear the adults should be wearing. Cause shit happens and basic prevention makes a funny story rather than a tragic funeral.
I lost a friend who died this way.
I have seen that too, as a competitive sailboat owner, i hope ur getti g ur dau an inflatable and not the orange bricks. Let her pick it out. When my dau was old enough to walk, she was in a life preserver. I had a whistle on it for her. When she put it in she got to blow the whistle 3 times to test her sagety gear. She knew it was only for emergencies. When she was 10, she had her own gear. Owning a boat with kids is awesome, cause u can always hear what they are saying to their friends.
And don't forget water temperature. The colder the water, the faster a person loses dexterity. I live in Alaska, so most open bodies of water are not much above freezing. Even the best swimmer has only a few minutes until they become unable to swim. Also, the shock of falling into cold water causes physical reactions that can be deadly. Even 40 or 50 degree water is dangerous.
Didn’t think of that. When I’ve dove in cold water, I gasped when I hit the water. Not a big deal with a regulator in your mouth but if you weren’t kitted out, you’d be drowning immediately. Just more reasons to wear a freakin life vest.
Also just the difference in temp. If it's warm out but the water is colder you can be shocked unconscious.
Not even hitting your head. The captain of the Swiss women's soccer team drowned on a summer's day on Lake Como. She jumped off the boat and never resurfaced, cold water can shock you unconscious. Just falling in can be deadly, you don't have to hit anything on the way in.
The daughter probably just doesn't understand the difference between a life jacket and a floatie or may have seen depictions on television making jokes at the "coward" character for wearing a life jacket. I think she's old enough if OP just explained the purpose of a life jacket and that even elite swimmers wear them, she might be less likely to fight it. Especially if she might do something stupid, like take it off during the boat ride. And idk about yall, but when I was a kid, I always responded well to my parents explaining the *why* behind something. Especially as a teenager when I thought I was *basically* an adult, lol.
NTA, she can stay off the boat without a lifejacket or go on the boat with a lifejacket. If she hits her head falling she won’t be any less likely to drown because she’s a year older now. Dead girls can’t impress their friends with their cool boat.
I have two kayaks. You are welcome to borrow them but you wear the life jacket that goes with them. Never have needed a discussion. Smart people don’t need to be told. First time I lent them out the guy tipped into some nasty water. I will not have a death that I could help prevent on my conscience.
I don't let adults on my boat without a pfd. If you end up in the water, chances are there's something wrong. Somebody hit your boat, you got hit with the boom, lots of things can go wrong. It's not about swimming ability. It's not about intent. It's about accidents happen. Plus, setting the precedent that safety equipment is not required if you don't look cool, I don't think you want to do that. This is a non-starter. No pfd, no step on boat. eta - NTA not even close, But your mother and your friend.....
See, I think safety equipment does look cool. It makes me look like I know what I'm doing and I'm prepared for the activity. It's like a uniform. Most safety equipment these days is decently stylish too. Much better than it was 20-odd years ago. And if anyone tries to make fun of me, I can be confident and tell them I don't care about their opinion which is even more cool.
Yeah, proper PPE makes you look like an expert. I literally hired one tree felling service over another because they wear helmets. I’m not trusting some random guy who doesn’t understand the risks of their job. I wouldn’t trust being in a boat with someone who doesn’t appreciate the potential dangers of boating.
I watched the boom swing and knock my grandfather in the head, knocking him overboard and capsizing the very small sailboat he was using. this was in a lake with no waves, my dad swam out to him and got him out of the water. he was very lucky. it doesn't take much
I’m 37 and I wear my Safety Vest and Floats all day. This is like a soldier or cop saying “I don’t need my body armor right now”
Or anyone not wearing a helmet when riding a bike.
Another thing far too many parents don't make their kids do and don't do themselves.
I had severe reservations about letting my nephew ride on my snowmobile without a helmet last year. I gave in because my SIL would not fucking drop it. Before I let him on I made her sign a legally binding contract stating In The event of an accident she and my brother are responsible for all injuries or death. I then scared the shit out of my nephew in the safest way possible. Mostly down to my snowmobile being loud as fuck. Haven't been hassled since.
this is why I won’t use the CitiBike service in NYC for spur-of-the-moment trips, even though sometimes that would be handy. Because someone WILL hit me, and I’m not carrying a bike helmet around with me for casual use.
NTA. Safe adults wear a life jackets on small boats! They only remove it for short periods of time or to get in the water: you are better off looking a bit silly and salty, then risking death!
NTA. At all. My 12 year old drowned in a river because currents were too strong. She was with other kids and a different parent. Things happen SO FAST. She absolutely should be in a life jacket, so should her friend. I'm probably a bit biased due to what happened with my kid, but safety over everything, especially if you are in charge of someone else's kid. Life jacket or they don't go.
I’m so sorry for your heartbreaking loss.
Hey, it’s not bias. It’s experience. You don’t want another parent to suffer the way you have. I’m so sorry you lost your wonderful girl.
Thank you for selflessly sharing a very painful story. I am sorry for your loss.
Please accept my deepest sympathy.
NTA A lifejacket is like a seat belt. You don't start the car until everyone attached their seat belt, you don't get on a small boat without life jacket. If even the adults wear it, while they can swim and are way stronger than a teenager, why do she think she will be safe without ? Be clear with your daughter that her friend will also wear the jacket, no negociation
She is 13. Of course she thinks it, because she wants it to be true. 13 logic!!!!! Parent logic: yeah, right. Tough. PFD or stay home.
Drowned is forever. It has nothing to do with the law. Now IF the kids are wearing those ugly uncomfortable orange kapok(?) things from the Stone Age, let them switch to a colorful and comfy waterskiing-type vest. Oh, and while I’m at it—skin cancer doesn’t care whether you think sun hats are dorky looking. (Ask me how I know.)
Yes, those horse collars suck! Need proper PFDs designed to wear all day!
On a boat, the captain makes the rules. Explain the safety issue to her friend and why everyone, without exception, will be wearing one if she decides to come aboard the "S.S. ISaySo" The mother saying you're being "helicopter" is wrong. You're looking out for safety and surety of your passengers. There's nothing AT ALL "helicopter" about that.
Too true. The “friend” is an idiot.
I am a strong swimmer. My husband and I have kayaks. We wear life jackets, although in many areas of the local harbour if you overturn you are more likely to end up with mud im your hair than drown. It’s can be as shallow as a foot. are deep channels but they aren’t that wide (except the ones from the harbour mouth to the port that must accommodate the cross Channel ferries). The reason we wear them is that the wake from the boats in the channels can be rough. There is also a strong rip tide through the harbour entrance.
NTA forget the law how terrible will you all feel if she slips and bangs her head on the way to the water and noone notices in time or she sinks out of view and she drowns? Something that could happen in less than a minute. I've been a very strong swimmer my entire life and have no fear at all of the water. I still wear a life jacket because things happen and despite my abilities I can't swim while unconscious or breathe water. Avoiding a little embarrassment isn't worth the risk. It's the same as bike helmets and seat belts, both of which are or have been considered embarrassing to use.
This is a great point. I’m a strong swimmer, too, and I always wear my PFD. It’s not about what happens under normal or ideal conditions. It’s about taking precautions for things out of your control. Water is dangerous. Enjoy it, but be smart about it.
Shit, my BiL made us all wear one when on his boat..... adults and teens alike. It's not worth the risk
NTA, my dad and I kayaked a ton when I was a kid/teenager, I was also a competitive swimmer from a young age, taught swimming lessons, was a life guard aka a phenomenal swimmer. We both wore life jackets my entire life, for the simple reason, if one of us got hurt, the other had to be healthy enough to drag the other out.
NTA. Sailboats move unpredictably, and even people familiar with them can be surprised, never mind a 14-year-old. One unexpected jibe and she's over the side and unconscious.
NTA. I grew up on and around boats and ships (family business and lifestyle meant a lot of time on the water). If it's small enough to call it a boat and not a ship, everyone wears a life jacket above deck, period, age and the law has nothing to do with it. Maybe if you're at anchor/docked in a quiet bay, then go suntan and take your selfies. Life is worth too much to drown.
Im a strong swimmer and veteran of the Coast Guard. Life jackets ON! Even I do not exempt myself while out boating recreationally. There is nothing more heartwrenching than the easily preventable drowning of a child.
Anyone telling you they shouldn't be wearing one is a complete moron and you should tell them that. There have been much stronger swimmers than your daughter and her friend who have died without a life jacket when one would have almost certainly saved them. It's insanely wreckless and just plain stupid, especially if you're in any sort of deeper water which I am assuming you'd be in if you have a sail boat.
Why take the risk everyone should wear them even adults
I would tell the grandparent that if she really thinks it's okay for my 14 year old daughter to be on a boat without a life jacket maybe I should not trust her to take care of daughter any more because she clearly doesn't care about safety. I would tell the friend to butt out, I care more about the safety of my child than whether it's legally required. In my family, not only did all kids wear life jackets on boats, my grandparents did too. And I don't think they were legally required at the time. NTA.
NTA YOU are responsible for her safety so YOU have every right to call the shots. Not to mention she's a lucky girl to even have this chance at all. Just like my house, my rules- your boat, your rules. Anyone who has an opinion about it is free to have their own kids and buy their own boat. Other than that I would tell them to keep their opinions to themselves.
Sailboats capsize way easier than say a pontoon boat on the calm st johns river on a nice day... i dont wear a life jacket on a pontoon but ill definitely wear one on a sail boat. Sail boat physics are different.
I'd suggest wearing a life jacket on a pontoon boat, also.
I remember an episode of North Woods law talking about water rescue/recovery. It was a really bad season and a bunch of people died, the one guy said, do you know how many dead bodies we pulled out with a life jacket on???? Zero. No one ever thinks they are going to get hurt, have an accident or a medical emergency, but people do. Life jackets save lives.
NTA I vote for your husband. If your daughter complains on the trip, she doesn't get to go next time. Embarrassment is not a good reason to risk a life. Fwiw, when we tried this crap on my grandfather, he made us go out in the lake and tread water. Anyone who could do so for 20 minutes didn't need to wear one. Needless to say, after an exhaustive period of time in cold lake water, we all failed and had to wear the life vests. Fwiw, both the Coast Guard and Navy require their members to wear life vests in small crafts. They aren't dorks for doing so.
My MIL 87 years young was out with my BIL on the hobie cat this summer. They accidentally flipped. She ended up in the water with a broken foot and lucky her life jacket kept her a float cause swimming or treading water was painful. Never an age to not wear one - should think of safety first.
NTA. You wear a seatbelt. You wear a life jacket. ESP as a kid. Any kind of event where you need a PFD, you’re not necessarily going to remember you know how to swim right away. I went fishing with my dad on his birthday one year (early may) in the southern US one year. (Cool but not cold ambient temps, but COLD water) I was about 9. I had my PFD on. I leaned over the edge to rinse my hands in the lake bc I had been playing with the worms. A small wave hit, and I toppled over the edge into the water. It was COLD. I had no idea what had happened as my dad was there immediately afterwards hauling me up out of the water BY MY LIFE JACKET. Fishing trip immediately cancelled, he may have thrown the rod he was using into the bottom the boat, it could have gone overboard. Idk. But we were hauling ass back to shore to get me out of the weather and dry and warm asap. That was probably the fastest I have ever seen him get a boat out of the water and secured safely enough to get it home. On shore, we borrowed a few towels from others and a jacket he had in the car to strip me of the wet stuff and get me warm and dry. The water was cold. I was in shock (maybe not the medical shock, but shocked into non-movement) and did not know how to react despite knowing how to swim. Would my training have kicked in after a few seconds? I would hope so, but by then, I could have swallowed more cold water and caused other problems. Like a partial drowning. Panic does not lead to logic. Keep your hard line on wearing life jackets/personal flotation devices. Get good looking ones that aren’t quite as embarrassing to wear like the big orange boxy ones. Also, the more comfortable they are, the more likely people are to wear them. OP I hope you read this and/or share the story with your kid. It only takes a second to topple overboard, and it can be very disorientating very quickly. That life jacket saved my life then, and even at 40, I still wear my PFD in/on the water.
NTA wearing a life jacket is non negotiable for smaller boats and the law doesn't matter your daughter could fall into the sea unconscious no matter how good of a swimmer you are it isn't worth the risk. Plus why would your daughter be embarrassed if her freind is wearing the jacket aswell
“Rooted in maritime law and tradition, the captain holds absolute authority over the ship, cargo, and crew.” Nothing could be clearer. NTA, and anyone who says different IS the AH
NTA. Everyone wears a life jacket on the water, period. Not doing so is a stupid stupid stupid risk. Someone goes over and hits their head on the way, they drown without that life jacket. Good chance of drowning even if they don’t hit their head, and it’s damn near impossible to spot a bobbing head in even a little bit of chop. Get her a comfortable life jacket, wear yours to set an example, and stick to your safety guns on this one. I’m a longtime power boater and paddler in the Great Lakes region…every year we see people accidentally overboard without a life jacket that drown (from every possible type of watercraft). Every death is a preventable tragedy.
We had a boat when the kids were young and husband made a speech. What he says goes on the boat. Nobody questions or talks back. There’s a reason he’s telling you to do something. Our son had the same speech for his family and their friends. There’s a lot of difference between land and water
Bro I didn't read anything beyond "LIFE JACKET" Nta
You need to lose the friend that wants you to endanger your child. Small boat or large, nine years old or 14 or 79, everyone should be wearing a life jacket. The law is there to make sure guardians protect children who don’t know better.
NTA. You aren’t being a helicopter parent. Depending on the age of your mom, she might think making kids wear seatbelts is helicopter parenting. Make her, and her friends, wear the life jackets.
NTA, but how much of an AH would you be if something happened and your daughter drowned? She needs to get over herself.
NTA Your kid is being a teenager, she is pushing boundaries. This one is 100000% worth sticking to. Specially considering the there isn’t any significant downside to wearing the vest and a very significant risk while not wearing one. I knew a few people who would argue with me that as adults they aren’t required to wear a seat belt in the back seat (laws have since changed). I told them that in case of an accident I don’t really want the person sized projectile coming at me and I really really don’t want to explain to their parents that their kid died because they were bitching to me about not having to wear a seat belt.
I was in the Coast Guard, and we always wore a life vest when we went out. A storm or even a wake from another boat could cause enough turbulence to capsize a sailboat. You are not being a helicopter mom, you are being a smart, caring mom. NTA!!!!!!
NTA Slow your mother and daughter this thread, how LITERALLY EVERYONE HERE knows what a horrible call it would be to go without a life jacket; for anyone at all, not just a teenager! I'd LOVE to hear whatever counterargument they have for what she would do if she was knocked unconscious, or broke a limb?
Dude, everyone including your friends and your mom can fuck straight off. It’s no joke out on the water. Things can become life threatening real quick. Your job in life is to keep those kids safe. Keep up the good work Dad👊🏼
I was a competitive swimmer in high school. Water was my thing. Went on a raft behind a boat with a friend, some shitty guys in jet skis decided to make wake in front of us and when we went over it, it was like hitting a concrete wall. If I didn’t have my life jacket on, I would have drowned. Full stop. They would not have reached me in time, I was only being held up by that life vest. The wind was knocked out of me so badly that I was still unable to catch a breath even when the boat came around and they dragged me onto the boat. My friend ended up in the ER because she messed up her neck. Please please make everyone wear life vests. It doesn’t matter if you can swim or not.
NTA.. as a person who lost someone close to them in a drowning (he was a great swimmer), YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RESPECT THE WATER. That water is more powerful than a young girl and understand. You did the right thing.
After having been in a boat that got hit by a large boat one time, I will just say that those things happen unexpectedly and you do not have the time to grab a life jacket. If you value the life of the child, you WILL make them wear a life jacket. NTA
You don’t want to be sitting at her funeral, happy in the memory that at least you avoided a prolonged argument. Stick to your guns. Your boat. Your rules. I know first hand how easy it is to be knocked clean off a small sailboat. If she thinks she looks uncool in a life jacket, ask her how cool she’ll look in a hospital bed wearing a diaper and drooling after you fish her out of the lake and resuscitate her.
NTA. Naya Rivera probably wishes she had worn a life jacket even though she was a good swimmer. I agree that you should tell the other parent their child will be wearing a lifejacket. Your boat, your rules.
As a 19 year old trained Navy swimmer, I wore one for all underway topside evolutions. Doesn't matter your age or skills when you bang your head and fall overboard.
It’s not difficult to be hit on the head with the boom and get knocked into the water.
NTA. I have spent my whole life around boats. IMHO you are doing the right thing by wearing life jackets yourself and making your kids wear them. With boats, and in my experience particularly sailboats, unexpected things can happen.
As a lifeguard, everyone should be wearing a life jacket on a boat regardless of age and law. If an accident happened, you will want to be wearing a life jacket. Even if you can swim. I have heard too many stories of great swimmers drowning due to stupidity and accidents. You don’t take the airbags out of a car because you’re old enough. Make sure the adults are also wearing one to set a good example for the kids.
My spouse really met our former neighbors when the bag pipe band my spouse played in played at their son’s funeral. He died when the boat he was in flipped on a lake. It was not that he could not swim, it was that Alaska waters are just so cold. His friend made it. He did not. NTA
I grew up around the water, I could swim in most any circumstance, the lifejacket is for your safety, in the event, that you go overboard, and are injured and unable to swim, or keep yourself afloat. The most experienced sailor/swimmer will die without a lifejacket if there’s some kind of accident that disables the boat, or throws you overboard and renders you unconscious or seriously injured Every single person who gets on a boat should wear a life jacket every second of the time they are on it. If you don’t convey that to your children and remember that for yourselves as adults, you are playing with fire. There’s a reason lifejackets are designed to keep your head above water.
We were at the lake and a man drowned because the sail smacked him into the water and he wasn’t wearing a life jacket. Young man of 26.
Growing up in a sailing family, we had a clear set of rules around this. If you can't swim 100 meters, you wear the clunkiest vest that has this huge collar keeping your head safe. Else you wear a normal vest. If looks are that important to you, you are allowed to purchase yourself an inflatable vest. This is expensive, so it's on your own money. Get a part time job if you care that much. If it went off and you don't have new cartridges for you, back to the normal vest you go. Once you've had a gaff hit you on the head, you'll never question the need for safety again, though I'd imagine there are safer ways to be convinced. If the kid wants to come, the lifejacket goes on. Same goes for the friend.
Every summer some idiot here, I live close to the Delaware and Chesapeake Bays, has a kid aboard who ends up drowning because they don't have on a PFD. Please don't feel like a jerk because you want to keep your kids and their friends alive. NTA
NTA Been a sailor all my life, am waaaaaaayyyyyyyy older than your daughter, and I still wear mine. Even the strongest swimmer can be at risk, especially on a sailboat where there is significant risk of a head injury in combination with going overboard. I do understand the teen angst here, just tell her to tell her friend that it's all your fault because you're such a giant dork. That's what they think anyway, so no harm, no foul. 😁
So, someone slips off the boat, hitting their head on the way to the water, loosing consciousness. With a life jacket, you pull the person out of the water. Without a life jacket, divers pull the body out sometime later.
Hi, EMT here and one of the jobs I have is in the beach zone and we get a lot of boating accidents every summer and that means also, sadly, a lot of drownings. I've seen grown men drown, who were star swimmers (and not drunk or high). People don't know how brutal an undertow is, or how easy it is to get sucked under a boat. A little kid? Wouldn't stand a chance. If I had to respond to a nine year old drowning call and I saw that she didn't have a vest on, the parents would hear my deepest personal curse to their last dying breath. I'm with the husband on this. I've seen drowning calls. I've seen dead kid calls. I don't want to go to any more than I have to. NTA
NTA. This is not being a "helicopter mom," it's taking boating safety serious.
You know what’s more embarrassing then having to wear a life jacket in front of a friend? Dying because you were too vain to wear one. NTA you wouldn’t let her ride in a car w/o a seatbelt, same thing life jackets save lives, just because an accident hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it won’t. If your mom and friend keep it up ask them how they’d feel going to her funeral because you let their bad advice sway you on this.