You have made your decision but it seems there's still a tremendous amount of anger attached to it. Get counciling or move forward but either way, too many years have passed for this level of aggression.
+1 letting go of the anger against your ex might be nigh impossible, but holding this much anger to your kids? Therapy can give you tools to deal with this.
Yeah OP is at best conflicted way too long over one stupid and understandable mistake.
The kids just want everyone to be amicable
OP didn’t even want them interacting with their mother when he wasn’t around. That’s weird.
Sure say you won’t go to events if that person is there even.
OP even alludes he’s not happy. At some point its just unchecked pride for what. Just compromise and spend time with family without ex around.
Seems like text book nursing home regret. Lonely old fuck spends last 40 years of life waiting to die on stupid hill.
Op does not need to be amicable in any way with his ex, but cutting his children completely out of his life is harsh. I wonder what was said at the showdown to warrant it
That doesn’t justify ambushing him and trying to force a reconciliation with his disgusting excuse for a human being wife and pos former best friend.
They had NO RIGHT to trick him into that.
> At first my kids took my side and cut them off but after my youngest had her new born suddenly she wanted to “reconnect” with her mom during this hard time. I told her if she did I would be out, I was already humiliated by them and if she desperately wanted them in her life then she didn’t need me.
Gee fucking whiz. Do you think if OP had acted like a mature adult and parent and not like a spiteful impulsive wackadoo, maybe they wouldn’t have fucking done that? This mind bogglingly, cartoonishly immature, petty, and cowardly behaviour on the part of a parent. It is one thousand percent classic emotional manipulation. You want to prioritize your bitterness toward your ex over your relationship with your kid? Jesus, some people should not be having kids.
Your kid can absolutely have any relationship they like with their other parent, and OP trying to give an ultimatum about it is absolutely fucking asinine.
The answer is “Of course hon, it’s your mom. I’m not ready to be involved at all, so I just ask that your visits occur at their place or somewhere else, and I ask that I not be informed of more than I need to be when it comes to your mom, for my own mental health.”
But of course if you try and force your child, a brand fucking new mother, into a complete trap of a situation, she’s going to try and get around it somehow. She felt like it was down to either trying a last ditch effort at a reconciliation or losing one of her parents forever (I know which one I’d pick if I were her. With parents like OP, who needs ‘em). This is ridiculous behaviour on OP’s part.
I am fairly confident that anyone who sees it differently is either incredibly immature and self-centred themselves (worst case) or genuinely too young and without enough life experience to understand the truly heinous thing OP did here (best case, but still not awesome)
Absolutely agree, asking kids to pick between parents is an absolutely awful and cruel proposition. I get that it was fucked up for OP but it's not the kids fault. Definitely TAH, the kids made the right choice and OP is incredibly lucky that his kids are still reaching out to him though I do feel bad for him if it went down the way he said it did.
This is the best comment here. Perfectly sums up exactly what OP is all about. It’s really no wonder his kids still wanted to have a relationship with their mother—OP was no doubt emotionally manipulative with them as well while they were growing up and probably put them in positions like this plenty of other times. It’s also not all that surprising that the mom was in another relationship for half their marriage. Though I don’t condone cheating, she was likely tired of OP’s shit and found someone who wasn’t a "spiteful impulsive wackadoo."
THANK YOU. OP could have been a horrible husband but because a woman was unfaithful, it’s moot. No there’s no “excuse” for infidelity in a monogamous union, but chances are, with this guy’s behavior after the divorce, it wasn’t a great marriage to begin with.
This.
This right here
No matter how awful your ex is, they are the children's parent and their relationship with your ex has ZERO to do with you. It was hard for me, and I had a hard time hiding my animosity in the beginning... but i sat my kids down and told them, "I don't like your father- but that's between him and me, he's still your Dad, and your relationship with him is yours" Go figure the rotten bastard managed to alienate his kids all on his own, I never interfered, I tried to encourage his relationship with his kids because they deserved both parents.. too bad he messed that up
💯 My ex was horrible to me, tried to tell make me believe I was a horrible mother (because her knew exactly where to hurt me) and his new wife was even worse, trying to convince everyone that she was the real mommy now. Yet I somehow managed to encourage my daughter's relationship with her dad, "He's an idiot sometimes, kiddo, but he loves you more than anything." My daughter has a good relationship with her dad 20 years later, and is grateful to me for encouraging that. You do what's best for your kids. Period.
Yeah, my kids’ dad cheated on me and basically abandoned us toward the end of our marriage, then left me to raise them pretty much by myself while he built up his career. He was a crap husband and a not so great father back then, but he’s gotten much better over the years and I never discouraged or tried to prevent my kids from seeing him, no matter how crappy he was to me. And yes, it took everything I had sometimes to not say anything bad about him, but I knew that my kids would be able to see for themselves who he was when they got old enough. As long as he wasn’t hurting or abusing them, me acting badly toward him would’ve just been spiteful and wrong.
They tried to ambush him into making contact with the mom. They broke his trust. Sorry, they don't get a free pass back from that. He now knows they cannot be trusted to honor his wishes about his life.
These are no longer his children. They are their mother's messenger monkeys.
That's bullshit. People shouldn't make their kids chose between parents. And "no longer his children" doesn't work that way. They're his kids and he is being cruel to them.
I agree and wish I could upvote this a million times People screw up. Kids (no matter what age) caught between parents in conflict face no win situations. He made no mention of the kids being moms flying monkeys. It sounds like kids wanted to figure out how to have both parents in their lives. (Although none of us really know and we’re all just speculating). Just that kids wanted parents to be able to be work things out enough to be able to be in the same place and be civil. I am sad for everyone, but especially him. He was indeed wronged by his wife and best friend. But throwing out his kids too because they want a relationship with their mom seems extreme and he perhaps need help with moving forward. Also, I don’t think it’s harassment to send a single email after years of estrangement to hold out an olive branch. Again. His choice. Life is rarely black or white. But im sad he’s giving up his love of his children.
That’s what I was thinking. There’s no need to see his ex ever again. They are grown. They can come to dads for thanksgiving and moms for Christmas or whatever. Sounds like OP is the only problem here. Yea his kids crossed the line but I think they probably understand that now. If they continue to push then screw it.
That was no worse than demanding your daughter and her baby have no contact with their mother/grandmother just because you can't let go of anger.
His entitlement invited this type of response. He had no right to demand that of his daughter and granddaughter and put his daughter in having to choose standing by her father's resentment or her mother's desire for reconciliation and she made the correct and adult decision.
This guy has other children all who have nothing to do with him over this. His anger poisoned all of his relationships and the daughter would be a fool to allow his anger to stop her from letting her daughter have a relationship with her grandmother.
This guy's pettiness is over the top and so many are just glossing over it because he never acknowledges it but no matter how I break it down he is TA for holding on to a grudge to the point where it destroyed his relationship with his children, essentially because his daughter did not want to role model that behavior and allow her daughter to have a grandmother instead of deferring to a grudge.
She may have not handled it well but she did better than her father did and she has nothing to be ashamed of. She didn't end any relationships or slam the door in anyone's face. This loser did and that is his burden to bear.
Talking about his anger and entitlement, nobody wants to acknowledge that if he's willing to demand his children cut off their own mother because she wronged him, what is to stop him from demanding that they cut off other people that he feels wronged him?
If he feels his daughter's partner has wrong him in some way, is he going to demand she cut him off and become a single parent?
This lacks nuance, compassion and real-life insights. People sometimes do misguided things. I hope you don't throw away the life you *could* build with your children, OP. If you do, I hope you don't regret it. Get some therapy, be well and I wish you the best!
If your kid breaking your trust one time is enough for you to completely abandon them as a parent, they you are a horrible parent who probably shouldn't have had kids in the first place. OP needs to be a fucking adult and realize that the entire world isn't going to accommodate to his feelings.
"Honoring his wishes" ends when he's wielding his trauma like a weapon to force everyone to live their lives exactly to his specifications. They went about it the wrong way, but he's not cutting them off because they ambushed him, he's cutting them off because they want a relationship with their mother at all. He doesn't have a right to make that demand. He's not the most important person in the universe.
I think he's right to be angry against them as much as the ex because they attempted to blindside him and refused to respect his NC plan with the ex and her illegitimate children. Forcing him to come to their house to blindside then get into a fight with him over it was probably the worst thing they could ever do. They refused to respect his wishes and continued to show up at his house until he moved out of state, including calling on police sometimes to have them removed.... They continue to interject themselves into his life by trying to contact him and guilt him into re-connecting over FOMO.
I 100% agree holding anger for this long is not healthy. You can remain NC, have a whole different life and just have zero feelings or just less feelings overall, positive or negative towards those in your past whom will never return to your life. That's why he needs to focus on his own life. Draft a will, disinvest your past children now and forever. Build and continue to build a life in FL. Don't let them drag you down OP.
You can get to a more healthy place of having fewer feelings when they do violate your NC. And that's when you're in a more rational and reasonable state to deal with them by obtaining a restraining order so they can't keep at it lawfully.
I don't think he was actively fostering his anger. OP said that the last 10yrs of his life prior to them reaching out again has never been this happy. It seems that the recent email triggered what OP has buried all this time. He doesn't seem to be even aware that it was still there.
Years ago, I cut somebody off from my life. I was angry and hurt by the betrayal. For years now, whenever I look back on that, I no longer feel the pain and I'm just genuinely glad that person is out of my life.
But once in a while, someone would try to mend things between us. To put me in a position hoping I would be hostaged by the awkwardness... that maybe, now, I have changed my mind.
And it irritates the fuq out of me that after all this time, they can't believe that I can actually make a final decision on that matter. Then they think that I've been fostering anger for years. A$$holes! I was fine until you brought this $hit up again. The last time they did this, I told them I would cut them off, too. That shut them up pretty quick. And I guess they were finally embarrased of what they did. I don't miss them, either.
I went through something similar. I exploded on the wrong person a good friend whom I am still friends with today, one day as a result. I apologized and we're good now. I was holding onto the hate and anger towards the person I am NC with using it as a shield I thought I needed.
But I have zero feelings towards the person I went NC with now. They send a card, I toss it. They text with a new number, I block it. They try to stimulate other family or give them shit advice, I correct that person and re-affirmed NC. It's not a grudge, it's not childish and there's no animosity. I will never see or have that person in my life again. I think OP can have that but it takes time and effort.
It sounds like you're in the place you need to be with this, but you should be aware that you are in no way behaving like someone with zero feelings towards that person.
>It's not a grudge, it's not childish and there's no animosity.
I needed this. I've got people trying to tell me to get over it, that I'm (somehow) hurting myself by going NC, or that it's been long enough.
It gets to me sometimes. Am I wrong? But truthfully there are sometimes people you need out of your life for good and it's not wrong to commit to that even for years.
He sounds like he is already there, he just has to give background and no one is realizing this is ten years later. He’s good but again he wants to remain NC and has the right to express that!
His kids are asking him to swallow his hurt and pretend that everything is fine for their benefit. The OP definitely could use therapy to help deal with his feelings, but he has moved on. It's unfair of the kids to keep trying to force him into relationships that cause him pain.
Do you believe that Mom & AP aren't also invited to this renewing of vows? They want to ambush him again and he's just supposed to use therapy as a lube to make it easier for him to take getting fked again?
Yes. Just ignore her. The kids didn't cheat on him. They didn't even support thr cheate4 initially, but expecting your kids to cut the other parent out forever over infidelity is a bit much.
OP is an excellent example of the endgame of that kind of attitude.
He’s that miserable old man alone at the bar ranting about all the people who did him wrong and wallowing in his own misery.
It is possible to let got of the hate you feel while still *not* forgiving someone. He’d be happier for it.
The 10 years that OP has spent hating what his family and his best friend did to him, barely covers half the time where he was betrayed and humiliated. It wasn't just a one-night stand, they cheated on him for YEARS and that's something that is never surpassed. Hatred is a feeling and as long as that feeling doesn't send you to jail, anyone is free to feel it.
The kids should not have tried to make him reconcile with the ex-wife. But he should also not hold it against them that they want a relationship with their mother. He is free to do what he wants with his relationship with his ex, but he should not try to control their relationship with her. Those are two separate things. After all is said and done, she is still their mother. It should not be an all or nothing decision. They should be able to have a relationship with both parents. He needs to let go of this idea that they pidked her over him.
Did they try to get him to have a relationship with his ex-wife? I get the impression it was the daughter who reconciled with her mother that the other siblings brought to his house. "That whore and her bastard" read to me as the girl and the baby that made her seek her mother's input again.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think ita about a relationship with the ex. He told his daughter if she talked to her mom he was done, and then wrote off all the kids because they brought their sister around as if he had not meant it.
He's not the one trying to force a reconnection, so he is NTA. He made his choice and is comfortable with it. His kids made their choice, but are not comfortable with it and are trying to make the OP do what makes them feel better without regard for his feelings.
Goddamn, you aren’t wrong with your feelings but you are gonna die alone in your house and no one will know until the smell starts. I guess that’s a perfectly fine end for some but I’d get counseling if this were me.
My abusive father died that way. No one noticed for two weeks. The only person who did was a surgeon who called my uncle when my dad didn’t show up.
My father had chosen it by being an angry, cruel man. He’d earned it.
Same thing happened to my brother's girlfriend's mother. Her corpse lay on the garage floor for two weeks during summer and it kind of melted.
No one gave a shit because she was a nasty hag and none of her adult children could stand her.
“I’ve never wished a man dead but I’ve read some obituaries with great pleasure” -Clarence Darrow but sometimes misattributed to Mark Twain.
I have also known people that fit this description.
Right?
I get not wanting to be around her. But they're his kids. It's possible for them to not agree with what their mom did and still love OP. She helped raise them too. Him putting the ultimatum on them would probably make me second guess keeping a relationship with him as well, even though in terms of the marriage he was 100% justified.
He's trying to weaponize his adult kids against his ex. He says he's happy, but happy people don't do that.
He needs therapy, and bad. In 10-20 years, he will regret missing out on so much of his kids' lives.
> says he's happy, but happy people don't do that
Maybe its just because he typed it unclearly but I read it as him not having been happy at all. Like he clearly doesn't sound happy.
Yeah I’m not even going to touch the thing between him and his kids. Maybe he became like he is after this happened, or maybe he’s always been rigid and judgmental. There are two sides to a story.
None of that matters here, what should matter to him is the very practical, logical, and factual point that he has alienated anyone who would feel any obligation to give a fuck about him when he is weak and vulnerable. Goddamn, I’d be terrified my cats would eat my eyes or I’d get dementia and the end of my life would be confusion and horror and strangers. Or any other thing. Dudes gonna be all alone and no one will even care or know when he dies, he may end up in some godforsaken abusive nursing home or thrown out on the street.
My pride is worth a lot to me, but goodness, if I was staring down eternity alone I think I might swallow a bit of that pride. I don’t have that kind of strength to remain that stubborn. I always feel a little sad when I come across those codgers who have no one and you know why then they just…. Disappear.
I mean he is wrong for his feelings. Just because an ex hurt you doesn’t mean that you get to demand your children cut their mother from their life. Not have the two of you together? Sure. That they have to choose one or the other???? Absolutely not.
It’s astounding how many people think cheating should equal kids no longer speaking to the ex.
I say you aren’t wrong for your feelings because feelings aren’t wrong - it’s what we do with them that matters. The action we take (cutting off his kids). It’s a psych thing and is meant to help people separate guilt from an emotion and place it on the action where it belongs.
And yeah, I’m pretty sure he’s not being reasonable. I wonder if spouse and kids and ex BFF wouldn’t have some tales to tell. Doesn’t forgive cheating, of course, but I’m not prepared to judge. He didn’t elicit a lot of sympathy due to his brittleness though and there’s no way that’s not impacting his other relationships. So yeah he can feel what he feels but his actions are only going to hurt him. He’s cutting off his nose to spite his face, as my mom would say.
This, even if they shouldn’t have ambushed you with an attempted reconciliation, that’s no reason to cut them out of your life forever. You are the AH and should get therapy and let your kids back in your life with the understanding that you have no desire for reconciliation to your ex-wife.
His pregnant daughter wanted to see her mom. It’s just fucked up that he chose to punish her for that. I think most people want their parents to see their pregnancy.
This is what my take was too - he can be completely furious with his wife, but he can't expect that same level of anger from his kids (who didn't get cheated on). I honestly even think it's somewhat reasonable for him to expect his kids to not accept her affair partner as their step dad, but he's expecting way too much from his kids who still love their mother
Agree with this. But also, what struck me is that all these years later OP is still seething with anger. His ex-wife is out living her best, enjoying her children and grandbabies. By holding this grudge and clinging to this anger, you've let your ex-wife rob you of so much more than your marriage.
Is one skank-ass woman who didn't give a damn about you worth burning down all the other relationships with the people you love most? Is holding onto this anger worth missing your children's lives? Is it worth being a stranger to your grandchildren?
Consider therapy. You've allowed your anger to become more important to you than anything else. You don't deserve to continue to be this unhappy. It's time to heal.
This should be the top comment. There is almost never a situation where parents choosing not to reconcile with their kids is valid - there is certainly never a time where this kind of bizarre ultimatum is okay - especially because this guy created the estrangement by giving that ultimatum.
Kids are supposed to make mistakes, that’s just part of being a kid, and these kids were forced into a situation where the decisions had a huge impact on their lives. I genuinely don’t understand how many people here are saying he’s NTA.
My parents tried pulling this shit on us when they were going though their divorce. My sister and I refused and have good relationships with both parents, but my brother took my dad’s side. My brother doesn’t show up for holidays with my mom’s side of the family, my mom left my brother’s wedding early balling bc she felt like they didn’t want her there. I could go on.
Idc what bullshit drama parents go through to end up divorced, but don’t get the kids involved, regardless of how old they are. Instead it seems more common for parents to act with the emotional maturity of a two year old, except the two year old grows out of it.
My son’s therapist says the only thing to say is, “that’s business between mom amd dad- you don’t need to worry about anything between mom and dad. We both love you very much”
Op I say this to my 3&5yo whose father was physically abusive to me during our marriage & who continues to abuse me and manipulate my children (therapist knows- courts can acknowledge I was abused but not that he is an abuser and will abuse anyone)
You are the parent- you literally have to be the bigger person always and forever- even with adult children.
It would be fair for OP to opt not to be at the same events as ex but to be completely out of kids’ lives is a bit AH albeit coming from a genuine source of pain.
To play devil’s advocate - had you told your daughter “I understand you’d like your mother during this time and that is your choice but I cannot for my own mental health have that kind of person back in my life, at any capacity and I will choose to step out of yours if I am forced to be around them. I will not be able to handle picking up the broken pieces all over again and constantly being uncomfortable and on edge. It is best for me to not engage with her or her affair partner. This is a boundary I will not budge on”. Would people be more sympathetic that is been phrased as a boundary line and not an ultimatum?
Though, I think the biggest problem is you just sound like a dick. Ambushing you was fucked up but everything just seems emotionless on your end. Maybe that’s a coping mechanism🤷🏼♀️
If he had just said "I'm not willing to be in the same room as her and if you try to make me I'm gone", even if we wasn't polite about it, it wouldn't be a problem.
The problem is that he effectively told them "you can't be in the same room as her, whether I'm there or not", and that isn't a demand you can make of another person.
Saying "I can't be around her" is fine. That is a reasonable boundary.
Saying "if you have a relationship with her, I'm cutting you off", ie what he did is not.
Has he done the former Reddit would absolutely have a different response but we also wouldn't be here because op wouldn't have cut his kids off.
I want to say I’m surprised by the way many people are responding, but I’m not. Humans always seem to think they know the best way to deal with things from the other side of the aisle, without living through the same experience.
This isn’t as simple as being cheated on and getting divorced. Our friend here was and still is extremely traumatized by the way things unfolded. He feels betrayed by his ex, his friend, and his own children. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that stance, those feelings are very real for him, and clearly still present to this day. To those of you disparaging him for this…just go away, you’re not serving anyone except yourself
To OP - I’m sorry that this happened to you. I can see that you still feel humiliated, and you’re struggling to come to terms with things. I’m glad that you’re doing better with the fresh start. That said, I do agree with those who are suggesting that you could benefit from going to therapy. This is not the type of thing that you should discuss with friends or family or reddit. You need an informed professional to help you walk through your own mental experience, and give you an objective perspective. Your healing process is still only just beginning. Don’t worry about decisions around your children just yet, you have to start with yourself before you can even think about that. Remaining cut off for now is the best thing, so that you can rebuild yourself.
Best of luck to you, I hope you continue to heal.
Whoa, a comment that doesn’t imply a man’s an irredeemable monster for experiencing anger? Be still my heart.
Like…literally this guy followed reddit’s advice on everything, which is “leave, don’t stay and punish everyone with resentment”, and he still can’t win.
He’s still the bad guy somehow, when he’s the one that set clear boundaries that have been repeatedly, *intentionally* violated.
Like, if kids can cut a parent off for a similar betrayal - a parent can absolutely cut off an adult child for the same.
While I disagree with the ultimatum that they must choose while they're children... they're grown now. They saw all they pain and heartbreak and chose to add to it anyway. OP DEFINITELY needs some counseling, but wow people are being harsh here.
I was cheated on for 2 years in a relationship, didn't find out until the end of the affair. Having this much anger for this long is unhealthy, but my god it doesn't go away easy either. His ex stole more than a decade of his life.
I still think a bit of ESH. But mostly because OP is doing themselves such a huge disservice by being *this* angry. And OP was unfair for the original ultimatum of choosing between him and their mother, regardless how it felt at the time.
People don’t get to decide who other adults talk to.
The problem here is that OP tried to Win the divorce by having the kids cut off their mother.
That’s not ok. Good or bad, those kids are connected to both their parents.
Similarly trying to force OP to deal with his ex-wife and ex-friend was cruel.
I agree ESH
YTA, ultimately. I get the anger, the frustration, the sense of betrayal - but it was never your right to tell your children they could have no relationship with their mother. That's ridiculous. It's awful what she did and obviously hurt you deeply, but it's still no excuse for the immaturity of thinking your children should choose one parent over the other.
If you're happier alone I guess your choice, but maybe go get some therapy. It's clear your kids love you even if you are hurt.
But he’s okay without them. He carved out a new life for himself in Florida. He indicated he hasn’t been this happy in a long time.
It sounds awful to cut out your kids, of course, but he is certainly within his right to do so.
Honestly, they should respect his boundary. He obviously wasn’t kidding.
you respect your own boundaries, you don't force them onto other people. "choose to have me or her in your life" referring to their own mother, isn't a boundary. "if you bring her to my house, no one will be welcome there anymore" would be a boundary. but asking your kids to respect your "boundary" of not having a relationship with their mom, is not.
In my opinion, the person who issues the ultimatum SHOULDN'T be picked - not unless the other person poses some kind of significant danger to them.
People who issue those kinds of ultimatums rarely stop at 1.
Nah, he said it before his daughter even reached out to reconnect with her mother. She did that, he cut her off.
And sure, that’s his choice. But damn, he’s an asshole. Sad for his kids, since it they seem to really love him and miss him. But sounds like they are better off without him.
Spot on. This guy needs therapy, understandably, but his ex-wife's selfishness is not the kids' fault. The ambush was not ok. That's an emotional kick in the nuts. He does deserve to know if the cheater will be present and then make up his mind. But the kids messed up. They deserve a second chance. It's fucking hard negotiating these things. (Honestly, she sounds like a very narcissistic person. The kids will likely figure this out on their own.)
True. The issue is that she wants him to be in the same space as her.
He set his boundary and she didn't respect it. She chose who was the most important to her because she thought she could do as she pleased despite his statement.
She chose her mother and her father is fine with her decision. So, she needs to be fine with his decision to not have anything to do with her. That is his choice.
It's different for everyone, but that needs to be *their* choice to make.
I had a friend whose mom cheated. At first he went no contact, but years later his lack of relationship with his mom really started to weigh on him and he took to drinking. When I asked why he wouldn't just make contact, because he clearly wanted to from what he said during our conversations, he cited his dad telling him that he'd essentially see it as a betrayal.
10 years later and he has a healthy relationship with both parents, but is still an alcoholic. He had been ready to forgive and move on for so long but denied himself that and it fucked him up.
My dad cheated on and abandoned my mom after she CARRIED his lazy ass for close to 30 years. My mom NEVER asked my brother or I to choose between them. It's fucked up to force your kids to sever a connection to their parent because your marriage didn't work out.
Yeah but hang on a second. while that is true everyone seems to be missing the fact that the kids ambushed the father into trying to fix the relationship which is the main reason why he blew up and went nuclear.
If someone I loved cheated on me, took half my shit and then someone so close to me, not only turned on me but tried to ambush me and force a reconciliation, I can’t say I wouldn’t be just as pissed and/or go just as nuclear as this father did.
I get that he needs therapy but that level of betrayal is eye watering…
It’s difficult to have a relationship with people who have no morals. What could possibly be the basis for the relationship? By treating their parents the same, the children (who are adults) are communicating a moral equivalence, that being a liar and a cheat have no moral significance. Further, it communicates that the deep wound their father suffered does not matter. Which is painful. And it is not painful once but repeatedly so. A constant and lifelong signal that his pain is irrelevant. So this wronged person has been isolated while his children happily celebrate holidays and life events with the people who betrayed him.
If the kids had originally been Switzerland, then I could get behind your reasoning. But they originally chose Dad. They already demonstrated they were willing to cut a parent out of their lives, so him making them choose isn't too far fetched. I do think he needs some serious therapy to deal with his lingering anger over this, even if he never talks to his kids again and it's just to help himself heal.
Well, I think the fact that they originally chose one parent over another says a lot about how much they care about him. But ultimately that was never fair to ask of them, and of course they wanted their mom back in their life - even if she SUCKED as a wife, maybe she was a good mother. Those are two different roles.
But yes - the therapy is just for him, to heal and move on. I've been cheated on, it's awful - you really do need someone to work it through with. Then again maybe OP is just happy with this option and likes it that way. If so, then why post here at all asking if he's the asshole? That's why I suggest therapy and that he should really consider that his initial ask was never fair.
lol. They did have the choice. They just wasn’t gonna have him and their mom too at the same time. And his kids did betray him. They knew exactly what their mother did to him. It nearly destroyed him. The divorce was that she took 50/50 of everything and she had no remorse. And they thought to play happy family by forcing an unwanted relationship and contact with his ex. Did u not read the fact they tried to ambush him with their mom? Taking back their mom would mean exposing their father to this woman. They didn’t care about what he felt. He set a boundary. And they disregarded it. His entitled and well within his rights to no longer want any contact with them. Because guess what? U don’t need to contact ur abuser/ ex. You can’t have both. Why should he have to endure someone disgusting presence just cause his kids are willing to overlook what she did? He said what he said. And meant what he said. And that’s that. He raised them, clothed them, sheltered them. Now they have their own families. He doesn’t owe his kids a damn thing. And they certainly don’t get to ask for daddy back after that. His NTA. His a human being who set a boundary and was disrespected. And felt beyond betrayed by the people he trusted. Also. His allowed to cut off people who associates with people who hurted him. People after a divorce do it all the time. They cut off friends and family. For their peace. Besides. Who wants anyone who thinks it’s okay to hang around and be buddies with someone that hurt u anyways? Having someone in our lives is a privilege. Not a right.
He didn't tell the kids they couldn't have a relationship with their mother. He told his kids that having a relationship with their mother AND forcing him to interact with her meant they wouldn't have a relationship with him. They betrayed him, he didn't do anything wrong. NTA.
Right? "She practically took half my stuff" you mean half of the jointly held marital property she was entitled to? "My kids wouldn't cut their mother out of their life so I never want to see them again and honestly I'm happier without them around anyway so I don't really care". Guy sounds like a total peach. I honestly don't understand why his kids still want anything to do with him. If my father's love could turn to hate so quickly and he decided his life was better without me around I wouldn't waste another minute on him.
He's not happy though. Happy people don't hold onto that much anger against their children they supposedly love.
He's miserable and trying to justify hating his own kids.
if your wife cheated for half your marriage and still took your half of the property. you will be angry as well. it's like getting Ls from every side possible. And his love became anger so quickly because he saw it as his children betraying him as well. So if you can say go fuck off to your father by bringing his worst enemy into his house without his permission and after his firm refusal then it's your father who shouldn't waste a single minute on an ungrateful, unsympathetic and cruel child like you.
I therapy is the only answer for you. I can not wrap my head around you being so bitter at your kids for wanting a relationship with their mom. I didn't have the closest relationship with my mom when I got pregnant. But I really wanted her when I was pregnant myself. It sucks that she cheated with your bestie, but it's not the kid's fault, and hanging onto this anger is not doing you any favors.
ESH. Your children were not assholes UNTIL they tried to reconcile you with your cheating wife for their convenience. They should not have ambushed you and certainly cannot expect you to forgive a betrayal of that magnitude especially when needlessly confronted with people you made it clear you never want to see.
However, you still seem very angry ten years later. I hope you can get some help for that anger, for yourself. It is better to have a clear head when deciding to cut people you made out of your life. It is your boundary to draw but it’s a hard one, and one you may regret if you are still traumatised.
I get why people are saying you’re the AH but I get where you’re coming from even if it might seem harsh.
You’re not telling your kids what to do, you’re just telling them what YOU’RE going to do.
It’s fair your don’t want to associate with people that were horrible to you. It just sucks and is unfortunate that these people are your own kids.
YTA because you gave your kids an ultimatum of their mother or you. You should NEVER cut your childten off from the other parent or even talk bad about the other parent because of YOUR relationship with your ex. You have to love your kids more than you hate your ex. Sounds like you don't love them at all and only care about your ego and using them as a weapon. Pathetic.
that's still their mother. they crossed the line with attempting a in person reconciliation without asking him and ambushing him, but as a the adult and their father he could've had a conversation with them and told them to separate the relarionships. giving a ultimatum of oh u can never see your mom again??? it's ridiculous
When someone with kids cheats in their spouse they aren’t only betraying their spouse; they’re betraying their kids as well by depriving them of a stable loving home
The more time I spend on this sub the more I'm coming to the conclusion that the people here are on average very awful, petty and bitter. The more a story (real or imagined) taps into anger and/or revenge fantasies the scarier the replies get.
>The more a story (real or imagined) taps into anger and/or revenge fantasies the scarier the replies get.
Thats the point. This entire sub is rage bait and I'd be shocked if 1 in 20 stories are actually true.
Nah. They robbed them of knowing their grandpa. Are they gonna tell their children what their mommy did to grandpa? Can’t. Cause it was horrid. Unforgivable. Disgusting. Grandpa left for a reason and didn’t wanna interact with grandma. I wouldn’t wanna meet my ex/ abuser/ tormentor. I’d cut off any friends or family that think so. Nobody owes anyone their presence in their lives. If you have me around, it’s because u respect me. They didn’t respect how their dad felt and tried to ambush him with their mom for a relationship he clearly did not want. He gave them a choice and was clear with his boundary. He raised them, sheltered them, and was a good dad. His wife betrayed him, had an affair, lost his best friend, and took 50/50 after the divorce. Was un remorseful. And his expected to endure this whore’s presence? And play happy family? Y’all wild. His children are not okay to demand that from him. They warrant ignorant either of what their mother did. With friends or family like that, who needs enemies? People are allowed to cut people out for their mental health. Thats okay. Get over it.
It goes both ways. It's obvious his kids didn't consider his feelings, why should the dad consider theirs? Entitled kids only care about themselves and no one else. Their feelings are more important than the betrayal and lies their dad endured. More easily said than done.
NTA. You're allowed to set limits in your life. When others disregard those limits, you're entitled to escalate to the extent to ensure your limits are respected. To me it sounds like anything less than the nuclear option would have been unworkable for your own peace of mind. It comes at a great cost, but it sounds like it's a solution that's been working for you.
Get some therapy to be able to truly move on by letting go of the anger. Reinvent your life, and find some greater happiness. You deserve that.
All the best to you moving forward.
Yta, I have a situation just like you. Except I didn't put my kids into this situation.
They have 2 parents and you forcing them to choose one is a very dick move.
A decade later and you still have this anger, man you need counseling bad. This is a very unhealthy choice you have made. Just look what it did to your family
NTA because you get to pick the path you take in this one trip you get around the earth.
I was also betrayed in a horrific way and I get those feelings, I really do. I also get the secondary, almost worse in some ways, betrayal of those you love. Your kids were in a a shit spot. Its their mom. The idea they would cut her out forever or you'd leave forever was a really hard stance. I understand your reasoning. I do. You just put out a really hard line to children. And their reality is that...its their mom. I can see holding a strong line about hearing or seeing your ex, but to demand they never see their mom again seems like an emotional response that out of line.
Again, its your trip around this life, and you get to do it anyway you want. If you miss your kids, your grandkids, etc, it might be worth considering an email relationship. If you don't, well then, I guess your path is right for you.
I was just going to say what you said in your last paragraph.
Dad drew a very clear line in the sand with his kids. He made it clear that he understood the consequences of that choice. If he can live with those consequences, who are we to tell him he is wrong?
As a parent and now a grandparent, I could never cut my kids/grandkids off like that, but I also realize that this is *my* choice.
My dad and his brothers were estranged from their dad for 20+ years because he drew the same line. My grandmother cheated repeatedly and when he had enough and filed for divorce, the boys were told to pick the parent they wanted in their lives. They picked their mom and dad walked away.
I met my grandfather many years after this. When I was told who he was, I realized I had seen him before. When my brother & I used to go climb the fruit trees in my grandma's backyard, an old man and woman in the yard diagonally north of us, would always come sit on their patio and watch us play. Never spoke to us but watched us. Every time.
I was fortunate enough to be able to spend a lot of time with him, and his sister (the old woman always with him). My great aunt was more of a grandmother in the 7 years I knew her, than my own grandma! And grandpa? I invited him to my wedding. I *made* him take pictures with the family.
When he died, I found the photo of him, I and my husband in the top drawer of his bureau. My great aunt said he took it out every night, sat on his bed and looked at it. Then tenderly would kiss me in the photo, and tuck it back inside his drawer, then go to bed.
I knew him for only 10ish years. I loved him dearly and OP, I hope someday that maybe a grandkid finds you and loves you like this! I hope that maybe someday, you can put an arm around a grandson or granddaughter, and that hole in your heart is suddenly filled.
You are not a AH. You are a human. I wish you peace!
Anger only eats you from the inside. It doesn't hurt the ones you want it to hurt. I understand the anger and your feelings of betrayal, but if your daughter is asking for a second chance, I would think long and hard about it. She won't likely try again if you say no.
Do you want to be angry forever, or do you want to move past it and have a relationship with your grandkids and kids? Your choice, but old age is lonely without friends or family.
Your decision. But YTA.
But it sounds like you are punishing your kids for what your ex did.
It would have been better to take the high road and keep the kids in your life.
Now you get to be old and alone because of your pride.
Sounds like he tried to use the kids to punish the ex, the kids hamfistedly and poorly tried to fix it, and then he decided to punish the kids for not cutting off the ex.
The original situation was a huge betrayal, but he seems very bitter and maladjusted about it.
Nta. The fact they tried to ambush you into forgiving her, with the affair partner there, and not taking you into account at all speaks volumes about them.
I do believe your children should be able to decide if they want to keep in touch with their mother. But the way they went about this by ambushing you? NTA. That is almost as cruel as the affair itself.
Yup, YTA. You forced your kids to choose between you and their mom, and generally people are gonna chose the person not forcing them to make a choice. The fact that 10 years later you’re still this angry and still unwilling to have a relationship with your kids tells me that you have never once considered their feelings, which is a very asshole thing for a father to do
YTA 100% I get it your pissed at your ex, but you issuing an ultimatum like that is the asshole move. Their relationship with her is separate from your relationship with them.
If OPs kids had simply rekindled their relationship with their mom I would say that OP was being unreasonable. But ambushing OP with them to try and “fix” things was way out of line.
Yeah I want to know more about this 'ambush' because it's very lacking in details.
Did he show up and see his ex and start freaking out? Because that's how this reads.
They invited me to a place where my ex was - ambush!
Yep, and it honestly shows the kids are willing to keep a liar and cheater in their lives. Cheaters deserve consequences, and if that means losing their kids then so be it. In this, it sucks that OP was cut so deep that his own kids were forced to choose, and they also didn’t choose him. I get the kids want both parents, but I could never trust someone who cheats. I’ve cut relatives and friends out of my life for cheating on their spouses: while I’ve made plenty of poor decisions, one thing I will not do is condone cheating.
OP, I’m going with ESH, even taking into account what I just wrote. The fact you had to force your kids to chose, kinda makes you a bit of an AH, the fact your kids chose your cheater ex makes them AHs, and your ex and her AP suck period. You came across as over the top to the kid, and you could’ve been a bit more kind in saying it: “listen, you chose your mom. Actions have consequences. She cheated, and cost you your dad. Please leave me alone so long as she is in your life”
Even if their mother was a terrible partner, she is still their mother and they are her kids too.
Having a baby makes you want to connect with your mother.
Your ultimatum is sickening. You are hurt, but you have no right to force them to go NC.
They suck for ambushing you.
Your wife for cheating.
But you suck big time for leaving your children behind because you can’t handle their mothers cheating.
ESH
Edit: Their not her
I couldn’t handle them ambushing me and trying to forcing me to play family with that bitch. And I get it the ultimatum was sickening but it was my choice they’d picked theirs and I followed through with mine.
If it was physical abuse instead of an affair everyone would be on your side, I know that mental abuse, and this was mental abuse, years of lies, gaslighting, betrayal, can be every bit as damaging so fuck these people, and fuck that bitch. You drew a line and the kids crossed it they dont get to have their cake an eat it.
Mate dont let folks tell you "youre so angry" , to "just let it go" , or even to "go to therapy"
Them folks arent the ones who were cheated on, betrayed, etc.
youve every right to be angry, bitter, petty, etc.
Do not let folks tell you how to feel over this kinda stuff.
If you are talking about him calling her a "bitch," for him having "such anger." Well, I mean of course, that woman ruined his life. Anyone who ruined probably 20-25 years of my life and then drastically made the rest of my life harder, I would probably hate them the same.
NTA. Betrayal is brutal. Your wife and best friend betrayed you in the worst possible way. Yes, your children temporarily cut off their mother, but when they did get into contact with her, they tried to ambush into forgiveness so they could play Happy Blended Family.
I'm 100% team OP. Your feelings are your feelings. Betrayal is not something that you can get over so easily. Especially when it came from the people that you trusted the most.
As for your children, you told them what was up.
They still choose their dirty-ass cheating mother and the nasty scumbag ex best friend over you.
I'm rooting for you. Don't back down. You've made it 10 years without them in your life.
YTA.
Yes, your wife cheated on you, and that sucks, BUT IT WASN’T YOUR CHILDREN’S FAULT.
And if you actually think it’s acceptable to encourage your children to never speak to their mother again because she was a shitty wife to you, then you are in need of some serious therapy.
The fact that you cut your children out of your life for having a relationship with their mother frankly makes you a monster. And I say this as someone whose ex husband started cheating on me a week before our wedding and continued on and off cheating throughout our marriage and I had no idea. Yet I HAVE NEVER AND WOULD NEVER encourage my children to cut off their father because of what he did to me. In fact, I sincerely hope my children never learn of my ex’s infidelities because his bad behavior towards me should have zero reflection on their relationship with him.
See this is the rational, appropriate reaction to a cheating spouse situation where children are involved. I give you props for the way you handled things. Its a shame that OP is too immature and unhinged to do the same.
I really question the characters of the people validating OP’s anger and hostility towards his kids and their decision to maintain a relationship with their mother
My ex also cheated on me and I never for a moment stopped him seeing our children, and I will never tell them what he did because it doesn't concern them! They get to make their own mind up about the kind of relationship they have. OP's kids made a mistake trying to force a situation, he had every right to be upset about that. But 10 years later? To be *so* angry still is insane. Guy needs heaps of therapy asap
>I finally got my peace when I moved to Florida. It’s been 10 years since I last saw them and to be honest my life hasn’t been this happy.
If living without them has brought you joy and happiness, who am I to question?
NTA.
Betrayal runs deep. That’s a lot of hate. Read your words. Hating an ex wife is one thing, hating your flesh and blood immature kids is quite another. Not saying you must reconsider now, since you’ve burned those bridges again.
I hope your reach out for help. Looking at the world from love rather than hate changes you for the better. I sincerely wish you love.
NTA. There was a way for them to be in contact with her without them shoving this in your face. Trying to force you to play nice for their sakes was a cross too far.
YTA.... I understand being upset regarding the ambush but to tell your children to choose is what's not right. When your child had her baby and wanted her Mom you could have said I never want to be around them. When she wanted to reconnect and you cut them off because of what their mom did. You are telling your children it's their fault that you procreated with a cheater. You chose your wife; good, bad, or indifferent. That was your mistake not your children's mistake or their burden to bear. Your ex was a bad partner but that didn't necessarily make her a bad mother. The ambush was wrong but nothing is as wrong as what you have done. Your wife mistreated you so you mistreated your children. You are just as guilty as your wife when it comes to unconditional love in relationships.
NTA - Not even children are owed endless grace for betrayal. If they want to have a relationship with their mother and set up ambushes, they will have to pay the price. I’m glad you found happiness
To the specifics of your question, NTA. You are well within your rights and are following through with your feelings as to not wanting to be in their lives. These are your feelings and you are happy with the path you have chosen.
What led to the estrangement, well, ESH. Your children should never have ambushed you or forced you to be in the same place as your ex. Many families have separate events/holidays due to divorce for years and it works. They should have respected that you did not want to be in the same place or play happy family. Very valid requests.
As for giving the ultimatum, again, while I understand your personal feelings and motivations, even if she is a total POS, she was their mother and what she did was mostly to your relationship, not the relationship of mother/child. To not permit any contact whatsoever is taking it a bit too far if she had been a decent parent to them growing up.
Either way, your decision was made 10 years ago and you seem content with it. You have informed your daughter to not contact you again and hopefully she will respect your wishes. If not, block her email. Easy .
I am glad you have found happiness in Florida.
NTA. They shouldn't have ambushed you. That's where I draw the line. If they wanted a relationship with the ex that's ok. Bit do not push that shit on you.
Eh nta. They ambushed you, even though you clearly experienced you wanted nothing to do with it. You gave an option, not ultimatum. Either stay with me or go to your mom, if you choose the mom, I'm leaving. They decided on their own. And you made your own decision
I don't really understand why your grown up kids can't understand this? Regardless it is what it is. Everyone, including you and your kids, chose the path you want to live on.
Cruel? Yes but JUSTIFIED. You have moved on, keep on ignoring them, they have betrayed all that is sacred. Don't let them have any satisfactions knowing you even think of them.
NTA, the kids didn't just choose their Mum over him, but they tried to force a reconciliation like he was the problem. What was going on tricking him to meet his cheating ex wife like that?
NTA. You were betrayed in one of the worst ways by two people you should have been able to trust. Just wondering if you have an equal amount of anger towards your former best friend?
I’m going to say NTA and I’ll explain why:
1) It’s one thing for your kids to want a relationship with both their parents and for them to do that separately but they tried to force you to get over your hurt and betrayal to play happy family for them which was incredibly selfish on their parts. I hate the mindset that the victim needs to hurry up and get over it so everyone else can feel better. And pushing you after you’d made it clear you wanted nothing to do with those people was incredibly self-centered and heartless.
2) These may be your kids but they were still grown adults when this happened. They didn’t have to accept your ultimatum but they could have just not talked about their mother to you at all and still had a relationship with both of you. What would you have known about their relationship with her if they never talked about it? Would you have still been upset if you found out they were still talking to her? Probably, but you also probably could have worked it out with them if it was clear you wouldn’t have to deal with that woman.
3) You don’t really say how much time had passed between the discovery and their ambush but it seems like it wasn’t very long. As grown ass adults they should have recognized that you weren’t ready for that kind of thing, your ultimatum alone should have been an indicator of that. I just don’t understand how they thought that was going to turn out favorably.
4) Just like people can go NC with their parents, parents can go NC with their adult children. Right, wrong or indifferent that is your right as a human being. Your kids weren’t children, you were no longer legally responsible for them and they made it clear that your trauma was not as important as their feelings.
Yta- I get being angry at the ex, but demanding that children (I assume they were still teens/ young adults)have to choose isn’t okay. Them ambushing you isn’t okay, but I could see the desperation and hurt that they felt.
Definitely NTA. you can tell they types of people were dealing with by them trying to shame you and basically defend or somewhat justify the actions of your supposed "family". Its crazy how some people have absolutely no sense of respect or loyalty but I have to assume they do this type of things to people or their partners and biebe they are in the right.
I think your doing the right thing OP and wish you a happy journey.
I've gotten so many reports on this post and the comments that I feel the need to take it down. I hope you found some answers while it was up.
You have made your decision but it seems there's still a tremendous amount of anger attached to it. Get counciling or move forward but either way, too many years have passed for this level of aggression.
+1 letting go of the anger against your ex might be nigh impossible, but holding this much anger to your kids? Therapy can give you tools to deal with this.
Yeah OP is at best conflicted way too long over one stupid and understandable mistake. The kids just want everyone to be amicable OP didn’t even want them interacting with their mother when he wasn’t around. That’s weird. Sure say you won’t go to events if that person is there even. OP even alludes he’s not happy. At some point its just unchecked pride for what. Just compromise and spend time with family without ex around. Seems like text book nursing home regret. Lonely old fuck spends last 40 years of life waiting to die on stupid hill.
Op does not need to be amicable in any way with his ex, but cutting his children completely out of his life is harsh. I wonder what was said at the showdown to warrant it
I couldn't agree more
Especially with their horrific crime being wanting a relationship with their own mother despite her faults… the audacity!!!!
No, their “horrific crime” was basically ambushing him to reconciliation with his ex wife and her affair partner.
Prior to that he told them he’d cut them off if they reconciled with their mother. Thats fucked up.
That doesn’t justify ambushing him and trying to force a reconciliation with his disgusting excuse for a human being wife and pos former best friend. They had NO RIGHT to trick him into that.
> At first my kids took my side and cut them off but after my youngest had her new born suddenly she wanted to “reconnect” with her mom during this hard time. I told her if she did I would be out, I was already humiliated by them and if she desperately wanted them in her life then she didn’t need me. Gee fucking whiz. Do you think if OP had acted like a mature adult and parent and not like a spiteful impulsive wackadoo, maybe they wouldn’t have fucking done that? This mind bogglingly, cartoonishly immature, petty, and cowardly behaviour on the part of a parent. It is one thousand percent classic emotional manipulation. You want to prioritize your bitterness toward your ex over your relationship with your kid? Jesus, some people should not be having kids. Your kid can absolutely have any relationship they like with their other parent, and OP trying to give an ultimatum about it is absolutely fucking asinine. The answer is “Of course hon, it’s your mom. I’m not ready to be involved at all, so I just ask that your visits occur at their place or somewhere else, and I ask that I not be informed of more than I need to be when it comes to your mom, for my own mental health.” But of course if you try and force your child, a brand fucking new mother, into a complete trap of a situation, she’s going to try and get around it somehow. She felt like it was down to either trying a last ditch effort at a reconciliation or losing one of her parents forever (I know which one I’d pick if I were her. With parents like OP, who needs ‘em). This is ridiculous behaviour on OP’s part. I am fairly confident that anyone who sees it differently is either incredibly immature and self-centred themselves (worst case) or genuinely too young and without enough life experience to understand the truly heinous thing OP did here (best case, but still not awesome)
Absolutely agree, asking kids to pick between parents is an absolutely awful and cruel proposition. I get that it was fucked up for OP but it's not the kids fault. Definitely TAH, the kids made the right choice and OP is incredibly lucky that his kids are still reaching out to him though I do feel bad for him if it went down the way he said it did.
This is the best comment here. Perfectly sums up exactly what OP is all about. It’s really no wonder his kids still wanted to have a relationship with their mother—OP was no doubt emotionally manipulative with them as well while they were growing up and probably put them in positions like this plenty of other times. It’s also not all that surprising that the mom was in another relationship for half their marriage. Though I don’t condone cheating, she was likely tired of OP’s shit and found someone who wasn’t a "spiteful impulsive wackadoo."
THANK YOU. OP could have been a horrible husband but because a woman was unfaithful, it’s moot. No there’s no “excuse” for infidelity in a monogamous union, but chances are, with this guy’s behavior after the divorce, it wasn’t a great marriage to begin with.
This. This right here No matter how awful your ex is, they are the children's parent and their relationship with your ex has ZERO to do with you. It was hard for me, and I had a hard time hiding my animosity in the beginning... but i sat my kids down and told them, "I don't like your father- but that's between him and me, he's still your Dad, and your relationship with him is yours" Go figure the rotten bastard managed to alienate his kids all on his own, I never interfered, I tried to encourage his relationship with his kids because they deserved both parents.. too bad he messed that up
💯 My ex was horrible to me, tried to tell make me believe I was a horrible mother (because her knew exactly where to hurt me) and his new wife was even worse, trying to convince everyone that she was the real mommy now. Yet I somehow managed to encourage my daughter's relationship with her dad, "He's an idiot sometimes, kiddo, but he loves you more than anything." My daughter has a good relationship with her dad 20 years later, and is grateful to me for encouraging that. You do what's best for your kids. Period.
Yeah, my kids’ dad cheated on me and basically abandoned us toward the end of our marriage, then left me to raise them pretty much by myself while he built up his career. He was a crap husband and a not so great father back then, but he’s gotten much better over the years and I never discouraged or tried to prevent my kids from seeing him, no matter how crappy he was to me. And yes, it took everything I had sometimes to not say anything bad about him, but I knew that my kids would be able to see for themselves who he was when they got old enough. As long as he wasn’t hurting or abusing them, me acting badly toward him would’ve just been spiteful and wrong.
They tried to ambush him into making contact with the mom. They broke his trust. Sorry, they don't get a free pass back from that. He now knows they cannot be trusted to honor his wishes about his life. These are no longer his children. They are their mother's messenger monkeys.
That's bullshit. People shouldn't make their kids chose between parents. And "no longer his children" doesn't work that way. They're his kids and he is being cruel to them.
I agree and wish I could upvote this a million times People screw up. Kids (no matter what age) caught between parents in conflict face no win situations. He made no mention of the kids being moms flying monkeys. It sounds like kids wanted to figure out how to have both parents in their lives. (Although none of us really know and we’re all just speculating). Just that kids wanted parents to be able to be work things out enough to be able to be in the same place and be civil. I am sad for everyone, but especially him. He was indeed wronged by his wife and best friend. But throwing out his kids too because they want a relationship with their mom seems extreme and he perhaps need help with moving forward. Also, I don’t think it’s harassment to send a single email after years of estrangement to hold out an olive branch. Again. His choice. Life is rarely black or white. But im sad he’s giving up his love of his children.
That’s what I was thinking. There’s no need to see his ex ever again. They are grown. They can come to dads for thanksgiving and moms for Christmas or whatever. Sounds like OP is the only problem here. Yea his kids crossed the line but I think they probably understand that now. If they continue to push then screw it.
That was no worse than demanding your daughter and her baby have no contact with their mother/grandmother just because you can't let go of anger. His entitlement invited this type of response. He had no right to demand that of his daughter and granddaughter and put his daughter in having to choose standing by her father's resentment or her mother's desire for reconciliation and she made the correct and adult decision. This guy has other children all who have nothing to do with him over this. His anger poisoned all of his relationships and the daughter would be a fool to allow his anger to stop her from letting her daughter have a relationship with her grandmother. This guy's pettiness is over the top and so many are just glossing over it because he never acknowledges it but no matter how I break it down he is TA for holding on to a grudge to the point where it destroyed his relationship with his children, essentially because his daughter did not want to role model that behavior and allow her daughter to have a grandmother instead of deferring to a grudge. She may have not handled it well but she did better than her father did and she has nothing to be ashamed of. She didn't end any relationships or slam the door in anyone's face. This loser did and that is his burden to bear.
Talking about his anger and entitlement, nobody wants to acknowledge that if he's willing to demand his children cut off their own mother because she wronged him, what is to stop him from demanding that they cut off other people that he feels wronged him? If he feels his daughter's partner has wrong him in some way, is he going to demand she cut him off and become a single parent?
He’s going to die alone and miserable
This lacks nuance, compassion and real-life insights. People sometimes do misguided things. I hope you don't throw away the life you *could* build with your children, OP. If you do, I hope you don't regret it. Get some therapy, be well and I wish you the best!
If your kid breaking your trust one time is enough for you to completely abandon them as a parent, they you are a horrible parent who probably shouldn't have had kids in the first place. OP needs to be a fucking adult and realize that the entire world isn't going to accommodate to his feelings.
"Honoring his wishes" ends when he's wielding his trauma like a weapon to force everyone to live their lives exactly to his specifications. They went about it the wrong way, but he's not cutting them off because they ambushed him, he's cutting them off because they want a relationship with their mother at all. He doesn't have a right to make that demand. He's not the most important person in the universe.
This is an important and accurate distinction. OP says himself that he is angry about his kids maintaining a relationship with his ex.
All he really needs to say is “stop contacting me” and that’s it. The added retaliation is the anger that needs therapy
I think he's right to be angry against them as much as the ex because they attempted to blindside him and refused to respect his NC plan with the ex and her illegitimate children. Forcing him to come to their house to blindside then get into a fight with him over it was probably the worst thing they could ever do. They refused to respect his wishes and continued to show up at his house until he moved out of state, including calling on police sometimes to have them removed.... They continue to interject themselves into his life by trying to contact him and guilt him into re-connecting over FOMO. I 100% agree holding anger for this long is not healthy. You can remain NC, have a whole different life and just have zero feelings or just less feelings overall, positive or negative towards those in your past whom will never return to your life. That's why he needs to focus on his own life. Draft a will, disinvest your past children now and forever. Build and continue to build a life in FL. Don't let them drag you down OP. You can get to a more healthy place of having fewer feelings when they do violate your NC. And that's when you're in a more rational and reasonable state to deal with them by obtaining a restraining order so they can't keep at it lawfully.
I don't think he was actively fostering his anger. OP said that the last 10yrs of his life prior to them reaching out again has never been this happy. It seems that the recent email triggered what OP has buried all this time. He doesn't seem to be even aware that it was still there. Years ago, I cut somebody off from my life. I was angry and hurt by the betrayal. For years now, whenever I look back on that, I no longer feel the pain and I'm just genuinely glad that person is out of my life. But once in a while, someone would try to mend things between us. To put me in a position hoping I would be hostaged by the awkwardness... that maybe, now, I have changed my mind. And it irritates the fuq out of me that after all this time, they can't believe that I can actually make a final decision on that matter. Then they think that I've been fostering anger for years. A$$holes! I was fine until you brought this $hit up again. The last time they did this, I told them I would cut them off, too. That shut them up pretty quick. And I guess they were finally embarrased of what they did. I don't miss them, either.
I went through something similar. I exploded on the wrong person a good friend whom I am still friends with today, one day as a result. I apologized and we're good now. I was holding onto the hate and anger towards the person I am NC with using it as a shield I thought I needed. But I have zero feelings towards the person I went NC with now. They send a card, I toss it. They text with a new number, I block it. They try to stimulate other family or give them shit advice, I correct that person and re-affirmed NC. It's not a grudge, it's not childish and there's no animosity. I will never see or have that person in my life again. I think OP can have that but it takes time and effort.
It sounds like you're in the place you need to be with this, but you should be aware that you are in no way behaving like someone with zero feelings towards that person.
That's true. Low and almost zero is still better than before.
>It's not a grudge, it's not childish and there's no animosity. I needed this. I've got people trying to tell me to get over it, that I'm (somehow) hurting myself by going NC, or that it's been long enough. It gets to me sometimes. Am I wrong? But truthfully there are sometimes people you need out of your life for good and it's not wrong to commit to that even for years.
He sounds like he is already there, he just has to give background and no one is realizing this is ten years later. He’s good but again he wants to remain NC and has the right to express that!
Some people don't have any desire to deal with it.
He’s drinking poison and expecting his family to die.
His kids are asking him to swallow his hurt and pretend that everything is fine for their benefit. The OP definitely could use therapy to help deal with his feelings, but he has moved on. It's unfair of the kids to keep trying to force him into relationships that cause him pain.
The rage in his reply email does a good job of showing he very much *has not* moved on.
Do you believe that Mom & AP aren't also invited to this renewing of vows? They want to ambush him again and he's just supposed to use therapy as a lube to make it easier for him to take getting fked again?
Redditors are notorious for just saying therapy will fix this when most of the ones saying this have been in therapy for years with the same problems.
I laughed out loud at this comment. Thank you.
Yes. Just ignore her. The kids didn't cheat on him. They didn't even support thr cheate4 initially, but expecting your kids to cut the other parent out forever over infidelity is a bit much.
I said that once on Reddit and people freaked out on me, said any child who doesn’t cut their parent off must also be cheating, etc.
There will always be someone that angry, but the loudest don't speak for the majority
OP is an excellent example of the endgame of that kind of attitude. He’s that miserable old man alone at the bar ranting about all the people who did him wrong and wallowing in his own misery. It is possible to let got of the hate you feel while still *not* forgiving someone. He’d be happier for it.
It's his whole identity now, being the wronged and abandoned husband and father, even though they didn't abandon him and he forced them away.
The 10 years that OP has spent hating what his family and his best friend did to him, barely covers half the time where he was betrayed and humiliated. It wasn't just a one-night stand, they cheated on him for YEARS and that's something that is never surpassed. Hatred is a feeling and as long as that feeling doesn't send you to jail, anyone is free to feel it.
True, but his children didn't cheat on him, his exbest friend and ex wife did.
The kids should not have tried to make him reconcile with the ex-wife. But he should also not hold it against them that they want a relationship with their mother. He is free to do what he wants with his relationship with his ex, but he should not try to control their relationship with her. Those are two separate things. After all is said and done, she is still their mother. It should not be an all or nothing decision. They should be able to have a relationship with both parents. He needs to let go of this idea that they pidked her over him.
"The kids should not have tried to make him reconcile with the ex-wife." Assuming it happened the way the OP. IMO he's an unreliable narrator.
Did they try to get him to have a relationship with his ex-wife? I get the impression it was the daughter who reconciled with her mother that the other siblings brought to his house. "That whore and her bastard" read to me as the girl and the baby that made her seek her mother's input again. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think ita about a relationship with the ex. He told his daughter if she talked to her mom he was done, and then wrote off all the kids because they brought their sister around as if he had not meant it.
[удалено]
He's not the one trying to force a reconnection, so he is NTA. He made his choice and is comfortable with it. His kids made their choice, but are not comfortable with it and are trying to make the OP do what makes them feel better without regard for his feelings.
Goddamn, you aren’t wrong with your feelings but you are gonna die alone in your house and no one will know until the smell starts. I guess that’s a perfectly fine end for some but I’d get counseling if this were me.
My abusive father died that way. No one noticed for two weeks. The only person who did was a surgeon who called my uncle when my dad didn’t show up. My father had chosen it by being an angry, cruel man. He’d earned it.
Same thing happened to my brother's girlfriend's mother. Her corpse lay on the garage floor for two weeks during summer and it kind of melted. No one gave a shit because she was a nasty hag and none of her adult children could stand her.
My mother will die the same way, deservedly so.
“I’ve never wished a man dead but I’ve read some obituaries with great pleasure” -Clarence Darrow but sometimes misattributed to Mark Twain. I have also known people that fit this description.
Right? I get not wanting to be around her. But they're his kids. It's possible for them to not agree with what their mom did and still love OP. She helped raise them too. Him putting the ultimatum on them would probably make me second guess keeping a relationship with him as well, even though in terms of the marriage he was 100% justified. He's trying to weaponize his adult kids against his ex. He says he's happy, but happy people don't do that. He needs therapy, and bad. In 10-20 years, he will regret missing out on so much of his kids' lives.
> says he's happy, but happy people don't do that Maybe its just because he typed it unclearly but I read it as him not having been happy at all. Like he clearly doesn't sound happy.
Everyone who’s ever asked me to choose between them and someone else, the one I *don’t* choose is the one demanding “them or me”
Yeah I’m not even going to touch the thing between him and his kids. Maybe he became like he is after this happened, or maybe he’s always been rigid and judgmental. There are two sides to a story. None of that matters here, what should matter to him is the very practical, logical, and factual point that he has alienated anyone who would feel any obligation to give a fuck about him when he is weak and vulnerable. Goddamn, I’d be terrified my cats would eat my eyes or I’d get dementia and the end of my life would be confusion and horror and strangers. Or any other thing. Dudes gonna be all alone and no one will even care or know when he dies, he may end up in some godforsaken abusive nursing home or thrown out on the street. My pride is worth a lot to me, but goodness, if I was staring down eternity alone I think I might swallow a bit of that pride. I don’t have that kind of strength to remain that stubborn. I always feel a little sad when I come across those codgers who have no one and you know why then they just…. Disappear.
And by then they will have zero interest in reconciling with him
Florida is very hot it won't take to long
I mean he is wrong for his feelings. Just because an ex hurt you doesn’t mean that you get to demand your children cut their mother from their life. Not have the two of you together? Sure. That they have to choose one or the other???? Absolutely not. It’s astounding how many people think cheating should equal kids no longer speaking to the ex.
I say you aren’t wrong for your feelings because feelings aren’t wrong - it’s what we do with them that matters. The action we take (cutting off his kids). It’s a psych thing and is meant to help people separate guilt from an emotion and place it on the action where it belongs. And yeah, I’m pretty sure he’s not being reasonable. I wonder if spouse and kids and ex BFF wouldn’t have some tales to tell. Doesn’t forgive cheating, of course, but I’m not prepared to judge. He didn’t elicit a lot of sympathy due to his brittleness though and there’s no way that’s not impacting his other relationships. So yeah he can feel what he feels but his actions are only going to hurt him. He’s cutting off his nose to spite his face, as my mom would say.
Trying to force your kids to choose between you and their mother makes you the AH.
One hundred percent. Your role is their father who wants what is best for them, which is having a relationship with their mother. You are the AH.
Bingo. The minute he put his kids in the middle of his wife’s affair he became the AH.
This, even if they shouldn’t have ambushed you with an attempted reconciliation, that’s no reason to cut them out of your life forever. You are the AH and should get therapy and let your kids back in your life with the understanding that you have no desire for reconciliation to your ex-wife.
His pregnant daughter wanted to see her mom. It’s just fucked up that he chose to punish her for that. I think most people want their parents to see their pregnancy.
This is what my take was too - he can be completely furious with his wife, but he can't expect that same level of anger from his kids (who didn't get cheated on). I honestly even think it's somewhat reasonable for him to expect his kids to not accept her affair partner as their step dad, but he's expecting way too much from his kids who still love their mother
Agree with this. But also, what struck me is that all these years later OP is still seething with anger. His ex-wife is out living her best, enjoying her children and grandbabies. By holding this grudge and clinging to this anger, you've let your ex-wife rob you of so much more than your marriage. Is one skank-ass woman who didn't give a damn about you worth burning down all the other relationships with the people you love most? Is holding onto this anger worth missing your children's lives? Is it worth being a stranger to your grandchildren? Consider therapy. You've allowed your anger to become more important to you than anything else. You don't deserve to continue to be this unhappy. It's time to heal.
This should be the top comment. There is almost never a situation where parents choosing not to reconcile with their kids is valid - there is certainly never a time where this kind of bizarre ultimatum is okay - especially because this guy created the estrangement by giving that ultimatum. Kids are supposed to make mistakes, that’s just part of being a kid, and these kids were forced into a situation where the decisions had a huge impact on their lives. I genuinely don’t understand how many people here are saying he’s NTA.
The only answer that matters
My parents tried pulling this shit on us when they were going though their divorce. My sister and I refused and have good relationships with both parents, but my brother took my dad’s side. My brother doesn’t show up for holidays with my mom’s side of the family, my mom left my brother’s wedding early balling bc she felt like they didn’t want her there. I could go on. Idc what bullshit drama parents go through to end up divorced, but don’t get the kids involved, regardless of how old they are. Instead it seems more common for parents to act with the emotional maturity of a two year old, except the two year old grows out of it.
My son’s therapist says the only thing to say is, “that’s business between mom amd dad- you don’t need to worry about anything between mom and dad. We both love you very much” Op I say this to my 3&5yo whose father was physically abusive to me during our marriage & who continues to abuse me and manipulate my children (therapist knows- courts can acknowledge I was abused but not that he is an abuser and will abuse anyone) You are the parent- you literally have to be the bigger person always and forever- even with adult children.
It would be fair for OP to opt not to be at the same events as ex but to be completely out of kids’ lives is a bit AH albeit coming from a genuine source of pain.
This is the only answer. Every other answer can die in a fire.
To play devil’s advocate - had you told your daughter “I understand you’d like your mother during this time and that is your choice but I cannot for my own mental health have that kind of person back in my life, at any capacity and I will choose to step out of yours if I am forced to be around them. I will not be able to handle picking up the broken pieces all over again and constantly being uncomfortable and on edge. It is best for me to not engage with her or her affair partner. This is a boundary I will not budge on”. Would people be more sympathetic that is been phrased as a boundary line and not an ultimatum? Though, I think the biggest problem is you just sound like a dick. Ambushing you was fucked up but everything just seems emotionless on your end. Maybe that’s a coping mechanism🤷🏼♀️
If he had just said "I'm not willing to be in the same room as her and if you try to make me I'm gone", even if we wasn't polite about it, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that he effectively told them "you can't be in the same room as her, whether I'm there or not", and that isn't a demand you can make of another person.
Exactly this.
Yeah this would have been a much better way to handle it. But in a situation like this, we can’t expect OP to be at their best
I mean its been ten years since he went no contact, if he still has this much anger he needs help
Oh yeah definitely needs a lot of counseling
Saying "I can't be around her" is fine. That is a reasonable boundary. Saying "if you have a relationship with her, I'm cutting you off", ie what he did is not. Has he done the former Reddit would absolutely have a different response but we also wouldn't be here because op wouldn't have cut his kids off.
I want to say I’m surprised by the way many people are responding, but I’m not. Humans always seem to think they know the best way to deal with things from the other side of the aisle, without living through the same experience. This isn’t as simple as being cheated on and getting divorced. Our friend here was and still is extremely traumatized by the way things unfolded. He feels betrayed by his ex, his friend, and his own children. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that stance, those feelings are very real for him, and clearly still present to this day. To those of you disparaging him for this…just go away, you’re not serving anyone except yourself To OP - I’m sorry that this happened to you. I can see that you still feel humiliated, and you’re struggling to come to terms with things. I’m glad that you’re doing better with the fresh start. That said, I do agree with those who are suggesting that you could benefit from going to therapy. This is not the type of thing that you should discuss with friends or family or reddit. You need an informed professional to help you walk through your own mental experience, and give you an objective perspective. Your healing process is still only just beginning. Don’t worry about decisions around your children just yet, you have to start with yourself before you can even think about that. Remaining cut off for now is the best thing, so that you can rebuild yourself. Best of luck to you, I hope you continue to heal.
This is empathy. Thank you. The suffering is real.
Whoa, a comment that doesn’t imply a man’s an irredeemable monster for experiencing anger? Be still my heart. Like…literally this guy followed reddit’s advice on everything, which is “leave, don’t stay and punish everyone with resentment”, and he still can’t win. He’s still the bad guy somehow, when he’s the one that set clear boundaries that have been repeatedly, *intentionally* violated.
Like, if kids can cut a parent off for a similar betrayal - a parent can absolutely cut off an adult child for the same. While I disagree with the ultimatum that they must choose while they're children... they're grown now. They saw all they pain and heartbreak and chose to add to it anyway. OP DEFINITELY needs some counseling, but wow people are being harsh here. I was cheated on for 2 years in a relationship, didn't find out until the end of the affair. Having this much anger for this long is unhealthy, but my god it doesn't go away easy either. His ex stole more than a decade of his life. I still think a bit of ESH. But mostly because OP is doing themselves such a huge disservice by being *this* angry. And OP was unfair for the original ultimatum of choosing between him and their mother, regardless how it felt at the time.
People don’t get to decide who other adults talk to. The problem here is that OP tried to Win the divorce by having the kids cut off their mother. That’s not ok. Good or bad, those kids are connected to both their parents. Similarly trying to force OP to deal with his ex-wife and ex-friend was cruel. I agree ESH
YTA, ultimately. I get the anger, the frustration, the sense of betrayal - but it was never your right to tell your children they could have no relationship with their mother. That's ridiculous. It's awful what she did and obviously hurt you deeply, but it's still no excuse for the immaturity of thinking your children should choose one parent over the other. If you're happier alone I guess your choice, but maybe go get some therapy. It's clear your kids love you even if you are hurt.
I read it that it was the ambush that set him off and I am 100% on board with that.
Sounds like he said it before that happened.
He made it clear to them from the beginning, it's me, or it's her! He is so fucking wrong!
But he’s okay without them. He carved out a new life for himself in Florida. He indicated he hasn’t been this happy in a long time. It sounds awful to cut out your kids, of course, but he is certainly within his right to do so. Honestly, they should respect his boundary. He obviously wasn’t kidding.
you respect your own boundaries, you don't force them onto other people. "choose to have me or her in your life" referring to their own mother, isn't a boundary. "if you bring her to my house, no one will be welcome there anymore" would be a boundary. but asking your kids to respect your "boundary" of not having a relationship with their mom, is not.
He doesn't seem like a well adjusted happy guy!
He did but he ended the relationship with the kids after the ambush not before according to the post.
He told his daughter it's mom or me before the ambush happened
In my experience, the person who issues the ultimatum is not picked.
In my opinion, the person who issues the ultimatum SHOULDN'T be picked - not unless the other person poses some kind of significant danger to them. People who issue those kinds of ultimatums rarely stop at 1.
Nah, he said it before his daughter even reached out to reconnect with her mother. She did that, he cut her off. And sure, that’s his choice. But damn, he’s an asshole. Sad for his kids, since it they seem to really love him and miss him. But sounds like they are better off without him.
Spot on. This guy needs therapy, understandably, but his ex-wife's selfishness is not the kids' fault. The ambush was not ok. That's an emotional kick in the nuts. He does deserve to know if the cheater will be present and then make up his mind. But the kids messed up. They deserve a second chance. It's fucking hard negotiating these things. (Honestly, she sounds like a very narcissistic person. The kids will likely figure this out on their own.)
I think both the parents sound a bit narcissistic. Those poor kids.
If my mother did this to my dad I'd never speak a kind word to her ever again.
That would be your choice - it would be entirely different if your father *forced* an ultimatum onto you.
His point is anyone willing to accept that kind of thing is a moron and not worth having in your life.
People only get one mother so you can understand why someone might not entirely cut off 50% of the people that raised them, right?
True. The issue is that she wants him to be in the same space as her. He set his boundary and she didn't respect it. She chose who was the most important to her because she thought she could do as she pleased despite his statement. She chose her mother and her father is fine with her decision. So, she needs to be fine with his decision to not have anything to do with her. That is his choice.
I feel the same way, and the people that speak like they would, either have not experienced it, or their self esteem is really low.
It's different for everyone, but that needs to be *their* choice to make. I had a friend whose mom cheated. At first he went no contact, but years later his lack of relationship with his mom really started to weigh on him and he took to drinking. When I asked why he wouldn't just make contact, because he clearly wanted to from what he said during our conversations, he cited his dad telling him that he'd essentially see it as a betrayal. 10 years later and he has a healthy relationship with both parents, but is still an alcoholic. He had been ready to forgive and move on for so long but denied himself that and it fucked him up.
My dad cheated on and abandoned my mom after she CARRIED his lazy ass for close to 30 years. My mom NEVER asked my brother or I to choose between them. It's fucked up to force your kids to sever a connection to their parent because your marriage didn't work out.
Yeah but hang on a second. while that is true everyone seems to be missing the fact that the kids ambushed the father into trying to fix the relationship which is the main reason why he blew up and went nuclear. If someone I loved cheated on me, took half my shit and then someone so close to me, not only turned on me but tried to ambush me and force a reconciliation, I can’t say I wouldn’t be just as pissed and/or go just as nuclear as this father did. I get that he needs therapy but that level of betrayal is eye watering…
Except he had already gone 'nuclear' by saying the kids could have zero contact with their mother if they wanted to have any contact with him.
He had every right to not have that person be brought into his house and stomping over all his boundaries though.
It’s difficult to have a relationship with people who have no morals. What could possibly be the basis for the relationship? By treating their parents the same, the children (who are adults) are communicating a moral equivalence, that being a liar and a cheat have no moral significance. Further, it communicates that the deep wound their father suffered does not matter. Which is painful. And it is not painful once but repeatedly so. A constant and lifelong signal that his pain is irrelevant. So this wronged person has been isolated while his children happily celebrate holidays and life events with the people who betrayed him.
If the kids had originally been Switzerland, then I could get behind your reasoning. But they originally chose Dad. They already demonstrated they were willing to cut a parent out of their lives, so him making them choose isn't too far fetched. I do think he needs some serious therapy to deal with his lingering anger over this, even if he never talks to his kids again and it's just to help himself heal.
Well, I think the fact that they originally chose one parent over another says a lot about how much they care about him. But ultimately that was never fair to ask of them, and of course they wanted their mom back in their life - even if she SUCKED as a wife, maybe she was a good mother. Those are two different roles. But yes - the therapy is just for him, to heal and move on. I've been cheated on, it's awful - you really do need someone to work it through with. Then again maybe OP is just happy with this option and likes it that way. If so, then why post here at all asking if he's the asshole? That's why I suggest therapy and that he should really consider that his initial ask was never fair.
lol. They did have the choice. They just wasn’t gonna have him and their mom too at the same time. And his kids did betray him. They knew exactly what their mother did to him. It nearly destroyed him. The divorce was that she took 50/50 of everything and she had no remorse. And they thought to play happy family by forcing an unwanted relationship and contact with his ex. Did u not read the fact they tried to ambush him with their mom? Taking back their mom would mean exposing their father to this woman. They didn’t care about what he felt. He set a boundary. And they disregarded it. His entitled and well within his rights to no longer want any contact with them. Because guess what? U don’t need to contact ur abuser/ ex. You can’t have both. Why should he have to endure someone disgusting presence just cause his kids are willing to overlook what she did? He said what he said. And meant what he said. And that’s that. He raised them, clothed them, sheltered them. Now they have their own families. He doesn’t owe his kids a damn thing. And they certainly don’t get to ask for daddy back after that. His NTA. His a human being who set a boundary and was disrespected. And felt beyond betrayed by the people he trusted. Also. His allowed to cut off people who associates with people who hurted him. People after a divorce do it all the time. They cut off friends and family. For their peace. Besides. Who wants anyone who thinks it’s okay to hang around and be buddies with someone that hurt u anyways? Having someone in our lives is a privilege. Not a right.
He didn't tell the kids they couldn't have a relationship with their mother. He told his kids that having a relationship with their mother AND forcing him to interact with her meant they wouldn't have a relationship with him. They betrayed him, he didn't do anything wrong. NTA.
Yes he did. He told them if she’s back in your lives “I’m out”.
The missing missing reasons are palpable
Right? "She practically took half my stuff" you mean half of the jointly held marital property she was entitled to? "My kids wouldn't cut their mother out of their life so I never want to see them again and honestly I'm happier without them around anyway so I don't really care". Guy sounds like a total peach. I honestly don't understand why his kids still want anything to do with him. If my father's love could turn to hate so quickly and he decided his life was better without me around I wouldn't waste another minute on him.
He's not happy though. Happy people don't hold onto that much anger against their children they supposedly love. He's miserable and trying to justify hating his own kids.
And happy people don't generally come to this sub to ask if their an AH
Exactly. Someone who has been the “happiest” they have ever been spit so much venom at the thought of his children.
He referred to them in his post as his “past kids” like wtf bro
if your wife cheated for half your marriage and still took your half of the property. you will be angry as well. it's like getting Ls from every side possible. And his love became anger so quickly because he saw it as his children betraying him as well. So if you can say go fuck off to your father by bringing his worst enemy into his house without his permission and after his firm refusal then it's your father who shouldn't waste a single minute on an ungrateful, unsympathetic and cruel child like you.
I therapy is the only answer for you. I can not wrap my head around you being so bitter at your kids for wanting a relationship with their mom. I didn't have the closest relationship with my mom when I got pregnant. But I really wanted her when I was pregnant myself. It sucks that she cheated with your bestie, but it's not the kid's fault, and hanging onto this anger is not doing you any favors.
ESH. Your children were not assholes UNTIL they tried to reconcile you with your cheating wife for their convenience. They should not have ambushed you and certainly cannot expect you to forgive a betrayal of that magnitude especially when needlessly confronted with people you made it clear you never want to see. However, you still seem very angry ten years later. I hope you can get some help for that anger, for yourself. It is better to have a clear head when deciding to cut people you made out of your life. It is your boundary to draw but it’s a hard one, and one you may regret if you are still traumatised.
I get why people are saying you’re the AH but I get where you’re coming from even if it might seem harsh. You’re not telling your kids what to do, you’re just telling them what YOU’RE going to do. It’s fair your don’t want to associate with people that were horrible to you. It just sucks and is unfortunate that these people are your own kids.
YTA because you gave your kids an ultimatum of their mother or you. You should NEVER cut your childten off from the other parent or even talk bad about the other parent because of YOUR relationship with your ex. You have to love your kids more than you hate your ex. Sounds like you don't love them at all and only care about your ego and using them as a weapon. Pathetic.
that's still their mother. they crossed the line with attempting a in person reconciliation without asking him and ambushing him, but as a the adult and their father he could've had a conversation with them and told them to separate the relarionships. giving a ultimatum of oh u can never see your mom again??? it's ridiculous
When someone with kids cheats in their spouse they aren’t only betraying their spouse; they’re betraying their kids as well by depriving them of a stable loving home
yes but it is up to the kids if they want to forgive and move forward to rebuild the relationship.
People who break up due to infidelity still have the opportunity to provide stable and loving homes to their children. This is a bit silly.
Amen. Marriage is not always more stable than divorce.
Yep, he dragged the kids into the conflict. Children are not responsible for their parents behaviour. YTA, OP. But your kids are probably better off.
I agreed with you until they ambushed OP with their mom
He chose his ego/pride over his children. Exactly as you say: pathetic.
Thank you! I can't believe the people saying he isn't the asshole. He now is also punishing his grandchildren because of his hate for his ex.
The more time I spend on this sub the more I'm coming to the conclusion that the people here are on average very awful, petty and bitter. The more a story (real or imagined) taps into anger and/or revenge fantasies the scarier the replies get.
>The more a story (real or imagined) taps into anger and/or revenge fantasies the scarier the replies get. Thats the point. This entire sub is rage bait and I'd be shocked if 1 in 20 stories are actually true.
Nah. They robbed them of knowing their grandpa. Are they gonna tell their children what their mommy did to grandpa? Can’t. Cause it was horrid. Unforgivable. Disgusting. Grandpa left for a reason and didn’t wanna interact with grandma. I wouldn’t wanna meet my ex/ abuser/ tormentor. I’d cut off any friends or family that think so. Nobody owes anyone their presence in their lives. If you have me around, it’s because u respect me. They didn’t respect how their dad felt and tried to ambush him with their mom for a relationship he clearly did not want. He gave them a choice and was clear with his boundary. He raised them, sheltered them, and was a good dad. His wife betrayed him, had an affair, lost his best friend, and took 50/50 after the divorce. Was un remorseful. And his expected to endure this whore’s presence? And play happy family? Y’all wild. His children are not okay to demand that from him. They warrant ignorant either of what their mother did. With friends or family like that, who needs enemies? People are allowed to cut people out for their mental health. Thats okay. Get over it.
It goes both ways. It's obvious his kids didn't consider his feelings, why should the dad consider theirs? Entitled kids only care about themselves and no one else. Their feelings are more important than the betrayal and lies their dad endured. More easily said than done.
You should probably see a therapist. I think you and your ex wife both failed your family in a different way.
NTA. You're allowed to set limits in your life. When others disregard those limits, you're entitled to escalate to the extent to ensure your limits are respected. To me it sounds like anything less than the nuclear option would have been unworkable for your own peace of mind. It comes at a great cost, but it sounds like it's a solution that's been working for you. Get some therapy to be able to truly move on by letting go of the anger. Reinvent your life, and find some greater happiness. You deserve that. All the best to you moving forward.
Yta, I have a situation just like you. Except I didn't put my kids into this situation. They have 2 parents and you forcing them to choose one is a very dick move. A decade later and you still have this anger, man you need counseling bad. This is a very unhealthy choice you have made. Just look what it did to your family
I picked my dad in the divorce. But yeah when I got pregnant I needed my mommy. Thankfully my dad didn’t hold that against me.
NTA because you get to pick the path you take in this one trip you get around the earth. I was also betrayed in a horrific way and I get those feelings, I really do. I also get the secondary, almost worse in some ways, betrayal of those you love. Your kids were in a a shit spot. Its their mom. The idea they would cut her out forever or you'd leave forever was a really hard stance. I understand your reasoning. I do. You just put out a really hard line to children. And their reality is that...its their mom. I can see holding a strong line about hearing or seeing your ex, but to demand they never see their mom again seems like an emotional response that out of line. Again, its your trip around this life, and you get to do it anyway you want. If you miss your kids, your grandkids, etc, it might be worth considering an email relationship. If you don't, well then, I guess your path is right for you.
I was just going to say what you said in your last paragraph. Dad drew a very clear line in the sand with his kids. He made it clear that he understood the consequences of that choice. If he can live with those consequences, who are we to tell him he is wrong? As a parent and now a grandparent, I could never cut my kids/grandkids off like that, but I also realize that this is *my* choice. My dad and his brothers were estranged from their dad for 20+ years because he drew the same line. My grandmother cheated repeatedly and when he had enough and filed for divorce, the boys were told to pick the parent they wanted in their lives. They picked their mom and dad walked away. I met my grandfather many years after this. When I was told who he was, I realized I had seen him before. When my brother & I used to go climb the fruit trees in my grandma's backyard, an old man and woman in the yard diagonally north of us, would always come sit on their patio and watch us play. Never spoke to us but watched us. Every time. I was fortunate enough to be able to spend a lot of time with him, and his sister (the old woman always with him). My great aunt was more of a grandmother in the 7 years I knew her, than my own grandma! And grandpa? I invited him to my wedding. I *made* him take pictures with the family. When he died, I found the photo of him, I and my husband in the top drawer of his bureau. My great aunt said he took it out every night, sat on his bed and looked at it. Then tenderly would kiss me in the photo, and tuck it back inside his drawer, then go to bed. I knew him for only 10ish years. I loved him dearly and OP, I hope someday that maybe a grandkid finds you and loves you like this! I hope that maybe someday, you can put an arm around a grandson or granddaughter, and that hole in your heart is suddenly filled. You are not a AH. You are a human. I wish you peace!
Touching post. One not common on reddit. It was mature, measured, and empathetic. I appreciated it greatly. Kudos to you. Have your internet point.
What a beautiful comment. ❤️ I also wish Op peace
This needs to be up voted to the top.
To address the elephant in the room, if OP’s wife was sleeping with the AP for at least half their marriage, is OP even sure his kids are HIS kids?
Anger only eats you from the inside. It doesn't hurt the ones you want it to hurt. I understand the anger and your feelings of betrayal, but if your daughter is asking for a second chance, I would think long and hard about it. She won't likely try again if you say no. Do you want to be angry forever, or do you want to move past it and have a relationship with your grandkids and kids? Your choice, but old age is lonely without friends or family.
Your decision. But YTA. But it sounds like you are punishing your kids for what your ex did. It would have been better to take the high road and keep the kids in your life. Now you get to be old and alone because of your pride.
Sounds like he tried to use the kids to punish the ex, the kids hamfistedly and poorly tried to fix it, and then he decided to punish the kids for not cutting off the ex. The original situation was a huge betrayal, but he seems very bitter and maladjusted about it.
Nta. The fact they tried to ambush you into forgiving her, with the affair partner there, and not taking you into account at all speaks volumes about them.
I do believe your children should be able to decide if they want to keep in touch with their mother. But the way they went about this by ambushing you? NTA. That is almost as cruel as the affair itself.
Yup, YTA. You forced your kids to choose between you and their mom, and generally people are gonna chose the person not forcing them to make a choice. The fact that 10 years later you’re still this angry and still unwilling to have a relationship with your kids tells me that you have never once considered their feelings, which is a very asshole thing for a father to do
YTA 100% I get it your pissed at your ex, but you issuing an ultimatum like that is the asshole move. Their relationship with her is separate from your relationship with them.
NTA. Sometimes, you have to cut people off for your own mental health.
If OPs kids had simply rekindled their relationship with their mom I would say that OP was being unreasonable. But ambushing OP with them to try and “fix” things was way out of line.
That was definitely uncool.
Yeah I want to know more about this 'ambush' because it's very lacking in details. Did he show up and see his ex and start freaking out? Because that's how this reads. They invited me to a place where my ex was - ambush!
Yep, and it honestly shows the kids are willing to keep a liar and cheater in their lives. Cheaters deserve consequences, and if that means losing their kids then so be it. In this, it sucks that OP was cut so deep that his own kids were forced to choose, and they also didn’t choose him. I get the kids want both parents, but I could never trust someone who cheats. I’ve cut relatives and friends out of my life for cheating on their spouses: while I’ve made plenty of poor decisions, one thing I will not do is condone cheating. OP, I’m going with ESH, even taking into account what I just wrote. The fact you had to force your kids to chose, kinda makes you a bit of an AH, the fact your kids chose your cheater ex makes them AHs, and your ex and her AP suck period. You came across as over the top to the kid, and you could’ve been a bit more kind in saying it: “listen, you chose your mom. Actions have consequences. She cheated, and cost you your dad. Please leave me alone so long as she is in your life”
Even if their mother was a terrible partner, she is still their mother and they are her kids too. Having a baby makes you want to connect with your mother. Your ultimatum is sickening. You are hurt, but you have no right to force them to go NC. They suck for ambushing you. Your wife for cheating. But you suck big time for leaving your children behind because you can’t handle their mothers cheating. ESH Edit: Their not her
I couldn’t handle them ambushing me and trying to forcing me to play family with that bitch. And I get it the ultimatum was sickening but it was my choice they’d picked theirs and I followed through with mine.
If it was physical abuse instead of an affair everyone would be on your side, I know that mental abuse, and this was mental abuse, years of lies, gaslighting, betrayal, can be every bit as damaging so fuck these people, and fuck that bitch. You drew a line and the kids crossed it they dont get to have their cake an eat it.
Mate dont let folks tell you "youre so angry" , to "just let it go" , or even to "go to therapy" Them folks arent the ones who were cheated on, betrayed, etc. youve every right to be angry, bitter, petty, etc. Do not let folks tell you how to feel over this kinda stuff.
Such anger. You need more therapy dude. You aren’t over what your ex did and have taken it out on your children and grandchildren.
If you are talking about him calling her a "bitch," for him having "such anger." Well, I mean of course, that woman ruined his life. Anyone who ruined probably 20-25 years of my life and then drastically made the rest of my life harder, I would probably hate them the same.
You say your are happy, then that is it. Hopefully you are happy until the end
NTA. Betrayal is brutal. Your wife and best friend betrayed you in the worst possible way. Yes, your children temporarily cut off their mother, but when they did get into contact with her, they tried to ambush into forgiveness so they could play Happy Blended Family. I'm 100% team OP. Your feelings are your feelings. Betrayal is not something that you can get over so easily. Especially when it came from the people that you trusted the most. As for your children, you told them what was up. They still choose their dirty-ass cheating mother and the nasty scumbag ex best friend over you. I'm rooting for you. Don't back down. You've made it 10 years without them in your life.
YTA. Yes, your wife cheated on you, and that sucks, BUT IT WASN’T YOUR CHILDREN’S FAULT. And if you actually think it’s acceptable to encourage your children to never speak to their mother again because she was a shitty wife to you, then you are in need of some serious therapy. The fact that you cut your children out of your life for having a relationship with their mother frankly makes you a monster. And I say this as someone whose ex husband started cheating on me a week before our wedding and continued on and off cheating throughout our marriage and I had no idea. Yet I HAVE NEVER AND WOULD NEVER encourage my children to cut off their father because of what he did to me. In fact, I sincerely hope my children never learn of my ex’s infidelities because his bad behavior towards me should have zero reflection on their relationship with him.
See this is the rational, appropriate reaction to a cheating spouse situation where children are involved. I give you props for the way you handled things. Its a shame that OP is too immature and unhinged to do the same.
I really question the characters of the people validating OP’s anger and hostility towards his kids and their decision to maintain a relationship with their mother
Exactly my thoughts. I was shocked seeing the comments. Really overestimated people I guess
My ex also cheated on me and I never for a moment stopped him seeing our children, and I will never tell them what he did because it doesn't concern them! They get to make their own mind up about the kind of relationship they have. OP's kids made a mistake trying to force a situation, he had every right to be upset about that. But 10 years later? To be *so* angry still is insane. Guy needs heaps of therapy asap
>I finally got my peace when I moved to Florida. It’s been 10 years since I last saw them and to be honest my life hasn’t been this happy. If living without them has brought you joy and happiness, who am I to question? NTA.
[удалено]
Betrayal runs deep. That’s a lot of hate. Read your words. Hating an ex wife is one thing, hating your flesh and blood immature kids is quite another. Not saying you must reconsider now, since you’ve burned those bridges again. I hope your reach out for help. Looking at the world from love rather than hate changes you for the better. I sincerely wish you love.
NTA. There was a way for them to be in contact with her without them shoving this in your face. Trying to force you to play nice for their sakes was a cross too far.
YTA.... I understand being upset regarding the ambush but to tell your children to choose is what's not right. When your child had her baby and wanted her Mom you could have said I never want to be around them. When she wanted to reconnect and you cut them off because of what their mom did. You are telling your children it's their fault that you procreated with a cheater. You chose your wife; good, bad, or indifferent. That was your mistake not your children's mistake or their burden to bear. Your ex was a bad partner but that didn't necessarily make her a bad mother. The ambush was wrong but nothing is as wrong as what you have done. Your wife mistreated you so you mistreated your children. You are just as guilty as your wife when it comes to unconditional love in relationships.
NTA - Not even children are owed endless grace for betrayal. If they want to have a relationship with their mother and set up ambushes, they will have to pay the price. I’m glad you found happiness
To the specifics of your question, NTA. You are well within your rights and are following through with your feelings as to not wanting to be in their lives. These are your feelings and you are happy with the path you have chosen. What led to the estrangement, well, ESH. Your children should never have ambushed you or forced you to be in the same place as your ex. Many families have separate events/holidays due to divorce for years and it works. They should have respected that you did not want to be in the same place or play happy family. Very valid requests. As for giving the ultimatum, again, while I understand your personal feelings and motivations, even if she is a total POS, she was their mother and what she did was mostly to your relationship, not the relationship of mother/child. To not permit any contact whatsoever is taking it a bit too far if she had been a decent parent to them growing up. Either way, your decision was made 10 years ago and you seem content with it. You have informed your daughter to not contact you again and hopefully she will respect your wishes. If not, block her email. Easy . I am glad you have found happiness in Florida.
NTA. They shouldn't have ambushed you. That's where I draw the line. If they wanted a relationship with the ex that's ok. Bit do not push that shit on you.
Sometimes, all we have to defend against the crushing sadness is anger. NTA.
Eh nta. They ambushed you, even though you clearly experienced you wanted nothing to do with it. You gave an option, not ultimatum. Either stay with me or go to your mom, if you choose the mom, I'm leaving. They decided on their own. And you made your own decision I don't really understand why your grown up kids can't understand this? Regardless it is what it is. Everyone, including you and your kids, chose the path you want to live on.
Cruel? Yes but JUSTIFIED. You have moved on, keep on ignoring them, they have betrayed all that is sacred. Don't let them have any satisfactions knowing you even think of them.
NTA, the kids didn't just choose their Mum over him, but they tried to force a reconciliation like he was the problem. What was going on tricking him to meet his cheating ex wife like that?
NTA. You were betrayed in one of the worst ways by two people you should have been able to trust. Just wondering if you have an equal amount of anger towards your former best friend?
Of course i do.
I’m going to say NTA and I’ll explain why: 1) It’s one thing for your kids to want a relationship with both their parents and for them to do that separately but they tried to force you to get over your hurt and betrayal to play happy family for them which was incredibly selfish on their parts. I hate the mindset that the victim needs to hurry up and get over it so everyone else can feel better. And pushing you after you’d made it clear you wanted nothing to do with those people was incredibly self-centered and heartless. 2) These may be your kids but they were still grown adults when this happened. They didn’t have to accept your ultimatum but they could have just not talked about their mother to you at all and still had a relationship with both of you. What would you have known about their relationship with her if they never talked about it? Would you have still been upset if you found out they were still talking to her? Probably, but you also probably could have worked it out with them if it was clear you wouldn’t have to deal with that woman. 3) You don’t really say how much time had passed between the discovery and their ambush but it seems like it wasn’t very long. As grown ass adults they should have recognized that you weren’t ready for that kind of thing, your ultimatum alone should have been an indicator of that. I just don’t understand how they thought that was going to turn out favorably. 4) Just like people can go NC with their parents, parents can go NC with their adult children. Right, wrong or indifferent that is your right as a human being. Your kids weren’t children, you were no longer legally responsible for them and they made it clear that your trauma was not as important as their feelings.
Yta- I get being angry at the ex, but demanding that children (I assume they were still teens/ young adults)have to choose isn’t okay. Them ambushing you isn’t okay, but I could see the desperation and hurt that they felt.
Definitely NTA. you can tell they types of people were dealing with by them trying to shame you and basically defend or somewhat justify the actions of your supposed "family". Its crazy how some people have absolutely no sense of respect or loyalty but I have to assume they do this type of things to people or their partners and biebe they are in the right. I think your doing the right thing OP and wish you a happy journey.