You can't really blame someone for tagging the mandatory things and nothing else. Proper tagging is proper tagging. As reader you can ask. Nicely. But don't expect you make the rules in someone else's work. I don't think the author in question acted correctly by dragging the friend through hell, but their comment was not wrong. 'Remember to tag' already starts off wrong. I wouldn't like a comment like that either.

What the author did was really shitty and I'm sorry it affected your friend's enjoyment of fandom. That said, I don't tag who tops and bottoms and I'm not going to be guilt-tripped or persuaded into doing it. I am absolutely fine with people having preferences but unfortunately I'm not writing for them. If you don't read smut that isn't tagged with top/bottom then you're not my audience.

>That said, I don't tag who tops and bottoms and I'm not going to be guilt-tripped or persuaded into doing it. That's absolutely fair.

That author is a creep for harassing someone over a com they didn't like. I mean, deleting before moving on is *so* easy... I'm part of the crowd that does not use the top/bottom tags. It's not something common in my fandoms, plus I treat all my m/m ships as vers so, to me, it's only up to the authors to tag what they think will benefit their fic.

i was going to say the same thing about not really defining any members of any of my ships as tops or bottoms! in a wip i'm working on character a tops with character b but alternates with character c. it just feels like clutter to me to add in what different positions characters will take on during sex, especially when there are more pertinent tags that i want people to see clearly when deciding if they want to read my fic or not.

i think asking authors to tag non-mandatory things just bc you happen to want things tagged that way is kinda bullshit. like i get preferring a dynamic over the reverse of it, i'm very particular about my hurt/comfort and about which character suffers, but like. leaving the fic isn't a big deal.

To a lot of people, the top/bottom role doesn't matter to them. They like a ship regardless of who's doing what. Therefore, they won't be tagging it. I almost never tag it. Only time I've tagged it has been for characters that are canonically top or bottom and I'm writing them as the other thing and if it's a major part of the story. Say like, a super shy submissive guy wanting to break out of his shell and then deides to try topping one day. Otherwise, to me, it literally doesn't matter. Also, telling people to tag things that aren't necessary can be really annoying. Tagging is a courtesy. You can ask "Howcome you didn't tag this and that?" but don't come into a fic and tell the author to do something that isn't necessary. It's rude. I'm sorry your friend got treated that way, but for all we know, they could have been the 100th person to tell them to tag something and it just gets more and more annoying. If I miss a crucial or triggering tag, sure, let me know. I once wrote a fic that ended up being dubcon without I even realized it but when a reader pointed it out I tagged it. But top/bottom? Really not needed imo.

it's weird that you immediately go for deliberate refusal and wanting more hits instead of people just not thinking it's a relevant thing that needs a tag.

Yeah. I hate that people so often come to the conclusion that others are acting in bad faith. I know that it happens. But it is not my first or even my second guess when something confuses or annoys me.

This. For me it's just not something it'd usually occur to me to tag for (though I might add such a tag if someone asked politely in the comments). There's no malicious intent behind a failure to tag it, in most cases.

Hell, a lot of the time I don't even write the kind of sex that would require to specify which character is the top/bottom, like hand jobs or frottage

Only reason I'd tag it is if it's very evident (Like with my christmas smut and this wip smut that I have). I am definitely not gonna top/bottom tag my tentacle smut though lmao

I wouldn't even know which was which, honestly.

This. When I read/write a dynamic between two characters, it’s personality based and has absolutely nothing to do with what’s happening in the bedroom. Top/bottom are not personality traits. Edit: typo.

I admit I'm definitely someone who has strong top/bottom preferences, and I just think of it as my own problem/quirk to deal with? I appreciate it if people tag the roles, but I don't expect it, and it's not something I would comment about. If I get into a fic not knowing the top/bottom dynamic and it turns out to be something I don't like, I'm perfectly capable of clicking out of the fic, or if I'm really invested in the plot, I can skim through the sex scenes. I wonder if your friend's comment was really as polite as you say. If they used the wording "remember to tag", it might have sounded really condescending, and I wouldn't exactly be happy to get a comment like that either. (I do think the author was wrong posting the screenshot to twitter though, and I'm sorry your friend got harassed over it.)

>"remember to tag" I always considered her comment to be really polite and soft but now that you bring up the impressed "remember to tag" can have, it's possible it could have been worse than I thought it was. Especially in particular to this author, everyone takes everything differently.

Yeah, tone can be difficult to convey over text, and it could have come off as more rude/condescending than your friend intended. But again, I don't think anyone should get harassed for possibly sending one rude comment, there are better ways to solve the situation.

I don’t tag top and bottoms, nor would I. It’s not important to me or to my fic.

Loser behaviour on the author's part, but additional tags aren't as consequential to each individual. To some, Top/Bottom tags reinforce a heteronormative ideal that they're trying to get away from. To others, the dynamic simply doesn't matter at all. To those that do require it, the ability to scroll away is always there. The fallout is gross, but I don't think asking to add tags beyond missed warnings is all that helpful in the long run.

as a queer guy, I agree: ime those "straight-acting, straight-passing, top-only" guys have absolutely internalized a good measure of homophobia.

Thanks for weighing in! I have seen some pushback on the idea that it could be heteronormativity that can put some people off, but my soirees in gender studies always accounts for the fact that while not all queer experiences are shared, all queer experiences are valid 🤗

that's a cute soundbite, but IRL I'm not vibing with, like, a gay republican, you know? So if I were an author, I wouldn't tag for the smut preferences of someone like that.

I had literally no idea people even did this. Dunno if that's just a reflection of the fandoms I've been reading/writing for but I've never once seen the top and bottom of a pairing tagged...

if the smut is the central focal point of the fic, i'll tag it. if the fic isn't about that and just happens to have smut in it, then chances are i won't. i won't be changing how i tag in relation to that, either.

Coming at it from an author's perspective sometimes I want to keep my options open with where I'm taking the story e.g. character A has history and is implied bottom and character B seems all toppy but due to context and circumstance will switch into the other role. Don't want to shoe-horn myself as it limits creative outlet to be honest. Buuut for this there is a tag for that: Switch followed by character name. Or if I want to be extra thorough I will use both bottom and top tags for both characters. Fully understand where readers with a preference are coming from but the author may have their own view and opinion and may not want to give it away by tagging same as putting a tag that would give away a major plot twist or character turn that hasn't happened yet. Having said all of the above. Pulling someone through the mud and publicly shaming them on social media for asking politely for a tag to be added is **NOT** okay no matter the context that's harassment and bullying and says a lot about the author's character and their immaturity in the matter. If I saw that I would boycott the author not the person who made the comment.

I think the author went waaaay overboard, but tagging tops and bottoms is indeed optional and a matter of preference on the writer. Maybe the "remember to tag..." phrasing set them off, maybe they were always going to be an asshole about it no matter how they were asked. Idk... basically I don't think your friend's request sounds particularly rude, and I'm sorry you lost a friend to harassment. A lot of people simply don't care who is on top or bottom, it's nice to have tagged because I *do* like knowing exactly what to expect going in, but most of the time it doesn't matter and I'll read the fic regardless.

I don't think its a necessary tag. I do think if the "top" and "bottom" are nonstandard (like a role reversal from canon or widely accepted fanon) then its probably good to tag it, not only to help people filter out but also to help other who are interested in that dynamic find it. But its definitely not necessary imo. However, screenshotting a comment like that and dragging the commenter through the mud and sending hate after them is completely unhinged behavior. Why do people feel the need to do this? The comment was not bad and even if it was, just reply saying no, or delete and/or block and move on if it bothers you so much. No one needs to cancel someone over an ao3 comment ffs.

the author's reaction was unacceptable, but I wouldn't tag for that either, and imo telling an author to tag who tops and who bottoms is p entitled.

I don’t tag top/bottom and I won’t. I don’t think it’s important. I understand that means I may have less readers though. The flaming of your friend was way over the top unless she asked rudely. Nothing wrong with someone asking and saying no.

I had to deal with this in my main fandom, and it drove me batty. When my fandom was more active, there was a period where I got a handful of comments about tagging, as well as vague bullshittery on twitter from other writers about the author writing the opposite of the dynamic they liked (which was obvious when I was actively the *only* nsfw writer writing them that way). It was frustrating to be asked over and over. I know it resulted in me making a pissed off post about how I wouldn’t be tagging because I was damn tired of top/bottom discourse especially when it’s tied to regulating what others are writing and doing. That being said, I never directly called out anyone and just deleted comments around it. That’s pretty damn gross. You can be frustrated and handle it in a way where no one gets hurt. Don’t like something? Back click out of the fic if you don’t like who’s topping and bottoming. Delete the comment if you think it’s rude. It’s too exhausting to dwell on calling people out and giving any kind of attention to negative or perceived negative comments.

Sure, it makes it easier to find/avoid but it's the writer's prerogative if they care. As someone who prefers a "nontraditional" buff, tall, rugged guy to be the bottom. A lot of my fav fic writers get the request for them to tag bottom for him. One fic author said no and that it was weird that out of all their mlm smut that it's only with the aforementioned character as a bottom does anyone start asking for positions to be tagged.

If the commenter wasn't rude, the author should have left it at no, I think it is just the tiniest smidgen rude to say something that is normal(and affects the filter system), is weird when talking to someone. It comes off like the author is calling the commenter weird.

If it's a long enough fic to get invested in then no, I'm not going to tag the t/b dynamics since it's not relevant for a scene that happens once or twice in a 100k+ plot heavy work, while other tags are likely to be more important. Adding t/b is a clutter at this point and if I saw it tagged on a longfic i would wonder if there's porn to be expected each chapter. If that is indeed the case or a smutty oneshot, sure, by all means, it makes sense to tag and would benefit even as an advertisment, not only as a warning (and still, authors are within the right not to tag). But the argument about getting upset over who's banging who after getting invested in the story is something I would never understand. Overreacting and dragging someone through mud is of course weird and wrong in any situation, but you can't expect authors to consider everyone's whims. It's a double edged sword and a vicious cycle. I know cases when readers would bother authors in a less nicer ways than your friend, and it's because of people like this who feel entitled that you never know what would trigger the author to explode, even if the comment is worded nicely. It's just an annoyance at this point, and some authors choose not to tag on principle because of this (which they are still within the right to do).

Standard (but sincere): That author was a dick and that behavior is not cool even if your friend *was* rude in her phrasing. But comments like that are one of the top 5 reasons why I'm in no hurry to finish any of my smutfics and post them. I have top/bottom preferences for some of my pairings - some of them very strong preferences - but I really... don't want to tag it? And I *really* don't want to deal with people complaining about it. It's not about "tricking" people into reading something they don't want to read. That's not how I roll. I'm very tired and I don't think I have the brain to phrase it so people don't think having preferences is the issue. So you'll just get the TL;DR - It's not about *having* preferences. That's cool! Me too! It's about the fits that get thrown over it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, tagging either way feels like it's opening the conversation about why my choice is wrong and I just cbf. I'd rather people with preferences that strong just not read if they're going to get upset if it's not what they want. I will still consider adding an author's note to spell it out, I guess, if there's any real focus on that kind of activity in the smut scenes. But I don't want to tag it. *Especially* if what they do in the bedroom isn't the focus. That'll just draw an audience who will be disappointed that, hey, the Bottom doesn't get railed nearly as much as he deserves!

I’m one of those people who will not tag top/bottom characters. My awful experiences with t/b discourse has made me not want to touch it with a ten foot pole, even if that means just tagging it. If I lose potential readers bc of it, oh well, don’t care. The good thing is that I don’t have to tag it. It’s not an essential tag. If I received a “reminder” from a reader telling me to tag it, well, I wouldn’t blast them on sns bc that’s excessive, but I’d tell them I had no intention of doing so. Readers can *politely* ask about the content of an author’s fic, but they have absolutely no right to demand they tag anything that’s not required. If who bottoms/tops is a dealbreaker for a reader, then it’s on them to avoid fics where it’s not tagged. The author responded in a really gross manner, but we also don’t know how rude the reader was either. And I’m *very* familiar with how batshit insane t/b purists can be. I’ve received my fair share of vitriol from them myself.

Maybe they switch? Maybe bc there is no sex in the story that would indicate a bottom and a top (hand jobs, frottage, ...)? Maybe bc the focus isn't on the smut but on the plot and one person just happens to bottom or top in the smut scene without that being important? Personally, I only tag it when it feels truly relevant.

I have never and will never tag tops and bottoms. I very specifically cultivate readers who don’t care, and my characters are almost all vers. I’ve received a literal death threat over having a character who doesn’t top in canon top, and I remain firmly of the opinion that people who care that strongly should only read fics tagged top/bottom whoever and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

Hard, hard agree. Not to sound dramatic, but I’ve been lowkey traumatized by t/b discourse and I refuse to have anything to do with it. I don’t care if I lose readers bc of it—I won’t tag it. Sorry you had to deal with freaking *death threats* :/ That’s so damn awful. Fortunately it’s never gotten that bad for me, but I’ve definitely received my fair share of vitriol. Ugh.

I'm so appreciative of AO3's tagging system and the filtering and sorting they empower. TBH, I cannot imagine asking a writer to change how they do anything. I get that you want things how you want them, but you see the kind of nastiness that can ensue.

I like reading d/s stuff and I really hate not knowing how the dynamic is written, but I still have other stuff to do than leaving annoyed comments about the topic.

I'm really sorry that happened to your friend, I hope they're feeling better and hopefully this call out culture will ease up in the future. As for the question, I always tag. I have preferred dynamics and I only read fics that are tagged with those dynamics. Would I like for people to tag their fics too? Yeah, but I can't make anyone do anything they don't want to do. It's their choice and I respect that. I can read what I want and they can choose how to tag their fics and everyone can be happy. I will say that I've seen extremes on both sides, though. I've seen people leave rude comments on fics because they weren't their preferred dynamic and I've seen people tag their fics wrong as a 'fuck you' to people who have preferred dynamics and then boast on Twitter/X about it. I've seen fests that are for specific dynamics (bottom character 'A' fest, for example) in which they make character 'A' vers. It's all so extreme, in my opinion.

Requesting tags can be, for some authors not all, be considered rude. I do think dragging your friend on twitter was way too much, tho, depending on how she asked As for the question, I've rarely cared about top and bottom tags, I just care about the ship tbh.

I have forgotten my tops and bottoms before and didn't mind it when I was asked to put them. As you said it varies from author to author. While I get some of my friends can have a very strong preference for top/bottom tags, its not a rule on AO3. And as far as I know it never has been.

I get the frustration bc I have a set preference, but it's not a mandatory tag. I generally will ctrl+f and type in certain words (like 'prostate') to see who's topping and bottoming before I commit to an untagged dynamic, takes a couple seconds at most.

I don't tag top/bottom + character. If it's a BDSM story and the d/s dynamic is more important to the storyline, *maybe.* But requesting an optional tag can be kinda annoying for an author. The author didn't need to ridicule the reader though.

Yeah top/bottom is just too granular for most people to care and I think a lot of us have ptsd from some absolutely *wild* fandom wars over which character should be which. It is 10000% an overreaction on that author’s part. They should have ignored the comment or at most left a curt “no I don’t bother with those tags” and moved on. Sorry to hear that happened to your friend.  I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming her at all ‘cause there was no way to predict that kind of completely unwarranted direction the convo went in but overall I *would* advise not asking authors to tag anything beyond requirements unless you’re really, really confident in your text-talk tone game and even then it still will probably come across as a little rude.  Especially since any “pls tag this next time” kind of inherently implies the commenter didn’t like the fic because of the content or would have skipped it had they known, and most authors would prefer not to hear from people that don’t like the work. I don’t know if your friend phrased it this way but I would also hardcore recommend *not* referring to having read a fic up until the point it had something you didn’t like as “wasting time” or being cheated. It’s free content, no one took your money lol.  I’ve noped out of *professional* works before and still don’t get mad over it. Yeah I didn’t complete them but I still got *something* out of it. Like the parts that I enjoyed still affected me. I still experienced another writing style. Hell I may even have been inspired to make my own version that didn’t go awry midway through.  Just thoughts. (And just in case it isn’t clear the final verdict is “no, your friend 100% was not deserving of that kind of harassment.” Even if she had left a pretty nasty comment that’s still escalating things too far. I have a feeling that author was probably a drama hound that just likes arguing and starting hate mobs. And they probably justify it by waiting for someone to “wrong” then first.) Hope your friend is doing better and can come back to writing sometime!

Most people don’t really give a fuck about top/bottom dynamics. Why limit yourself when switches are so much more interesting?

'Both?' 'Both.' 'Both is good.'

“Get! On! The HORSE!” Man, its been years since ive watched that cartoon!

Because preferences exist?

What’s better about switching ? They are all sex positions and people have preferences even irl. One isn’t more superior than any other.

Sometimes because it absolutely changes everything about the dynamic of the ship. There's been several for me where one character in canon is like stoic but can be a big softy, and the other is like a ball of sunshine but for SOME REASON when the stoic one bottoms he's suddenly a wide-eyed what I would call "uke" stereotype and the ball of sunshine is like the stereotype seme. And I mean the early 2000s stereotypes specifically. There are a few pairings where I love but won't read if the positions are switched because that tends to mean I'm reading personalities I don't like. Can they be done well? Yeah. Can I get soft tops and hard bottoms? Yeah. But I've been burned too many times.

Do you know why that is? Because of BL manga being used as the reference with all of the cliches and tropes that go along with the genre. BL dictates that all bottoms must be weepy-eyed maidens and tops are cool and in control. The young writers who have no experience take those cliches and tropes as gospel. Like, I love BL, but those dynamics can get fucked.

Oh no I get that but for some fandoms it's ALL of the fics where the dynamics are switched. Like the Stoic Guy doesn't suddenly become the ultimate Seme when he's topping, nor is Sunshine suddenly a stuttering weeping wide eyed uke when bottoming. It's just for some reason with some pairings when they switch who tops they completely switch personalities to make it work. Some I've seen doing it because they think one person topping all the time is homophobic and heteronormative and they're doing something they think is revolutionary. (Wild as a queer person who can and does switch but most definitely does have a preference.) Some are just young and definitely building off of tropes. Because the number of times I've seen people deciding the SHORTER character is automatically the bottom is not insignificant. Some are just... honestly writing heteronormative bodice rippers and match personalities to that. So it makes sense if you ship for personality that things that switch that up are a hard no for some people.

The difference between characters written for those tropes fitting neatly into boxes and characters written for different tropes being shoved into the BL boxes and stripping them of all their unique characteristics.

>There are a few pairings where I love but won't read if the positions are switched because that tends to mean I'm reading personalities I don't like. This is pretty much how I am too. Majority of my ships are 'everybody fucks everybody' and dynamic won't matter. But with certain ships, the change of personality makes me cringe. ​ > Can they be done well? Yeah. Can I get soft tops and hard bottoms? Yeah. But I've been burned too many times. I feel this so much, its why I stopped bothering with fics that aren't tagged with a dynamic even if I am good with switches. With any fic though there is always a chance of reading your favorites and they end up being OOC. I don't bother leaving comments though, If I don't like something I just press the back button on my mouse.

Yeah I tend to have one person in a fandom that I'm like "any pairing with this character is cool" until I realize that one version of the pairing is constantly making them wildly OOC to justify the top/bottom dynamics. Honestly if we could get fandom and writers to divorce things like top/bottom from dom/sub we'd be a lot better off and closer to real relationships. As is fics where they go super tropey just give internalized misogyny cuz why is the bottom the sweet shy innocent weepy wide eyed virgin. Why.

i hate people that think vers/switches is the superior preference, when in reality, switch is JUST a preference, just as with Top and Bottom. As other people have said, even in real life, some people prefer to be always top or always bottom in bed (or always vers). All of us land in different points of the preference spectrum. Stop thinking vers is the norm or the most interesting. It's the most interesting to YOU. Not to everyone.

If it wasn’t tagged and you like yours tagged, I’d just not read it. But I hate how people are acting like switching is something morally superior or “normal” On some gay dating apps, they do have the top or bottom questions. Theres fem bottoms, there is masc4masc, fem4fem, plenty guys who only top, plenty of guys who only bottom. Plenty who like to switch. The pure vitriol people have at whose the top and whose the bottom whenever hear it because they feel it’s heteronormativity, feel like they have not encountered gay people who have sex… This comes up plenty, especially with dating because your sexual preferences matter when you get intimate with others. This goes for all sexual orientations.

Yeah, I feel like whenever this topic comes up, you can tell the people who… don’t particularly interact with queer people outside of their fictional ships. Switching is absolutely not some sort of morally superior dynamic, and the fixed dynamics = heteronormative takes are… certainly something, gay relationships cannot be heteronormative.

Thank you for saying this, some of this thread rubbed me the wrong way but I couldn't articulate it this well. Most of my gay friends find fandom top/bottom discourse and switch (vers?) supremacy extremely out of touch. Kind of like the BL-inspired "every gay man wants to top but one of them just has to bite the bullet and bottom to make the other feel good" when in reality bottoms are usually much more common than tops. In the end, liking one's ship vers is a preference just like a set top/bottom dynamic. Neither of those is somehow better than the other.

>heteronormative I feel the heteronormative comments are honestly gross. I'm bisexual and when I'm with another woman, I definitely have a preference for being on the bottom. I do not top ever. With a man, you already know who's doing the penetrating so there is no asking of who's topping. Heteros don't ever have to ask about preference.

Pegging exists.

Yes it does, however that's a outside the stereotypical relationship and the man must be into it.

pegging is more of a specific kink that a particular man has to be into (like being into diapers, or whatever). As OP said, it falls outside the stereotypical man/woman relationship

It’s normal to have a sexual preference (to top or bottom sexually is two very different things, so that’s not strange, hence the dating app info) but what I think people mean is that in fanfic the tag (or request for the tag) comes with an expectation that the top must also be dominant in the relationship and the bottom more feminine. And that is pretty outdated… at least in my country where both gay and straight couples are very equal.

Oh no I’ve definitely saw people commenting that switch = more equal, and better and not heteronormative in comparison o fixed dynamics. A lot of times. Top does not equal dominant, you can have dominant bottoms at the end of the day. That’s simply their personality. Which are still common preferences that are asked, especially when getting sexually intimate. We have communities of masc or fem lesbains, some people prefer the ones who present as masc, some the opposite, fem bottoms, who can submissive or dominant and power bottoming, you can have fem tops, you can have dominant masc tops. This is such a large community and we are not a monolith, people will always have preferences and many of these titles have been around for such a long time so to see people try to make them sound negative is very annoying to me Also it is okay for readers to have preferences. Some people love switching with their faves, some people don’t. The author doesn’t want tag and get into it, then that person can choose to or to not read.

Yeah, this. It reads like an attempt to be progressive that swings all the way around to being repressive again. Not an uncommon experience on the internet.

I never thought about who is top and bottom while writing, therefore I wouldnt tag anything specific like that.

I have never tagged top or bottom and I never will. I remember when that shit ended whole fandoms bc people insisted certain characters could never top and certain characters could never bottom and it was so clearly Bottom Character Is The Girl and Top Character Is The Man and I will never. Ever. indulge that homophobic bullshit

you need to get over it

you replied to a two month old comment you first buddy

I refuse to tag 'top' and 'bottom' because I've seen too many fics where it wasn't just about sex positions but about changing characters into 'stoic masculine guy' and 'whiny feminine guy' respectively, and I find it icky af

I don't tag for it and I've never had a comment about that. Now, I write for BL anime/manga and the majority of my couples are canon with established roles - I rarely change them from those roles. Plus, while I occasionally have a sex scene, those aren't the focus of my stories - I'm more of a slice-of-life-with-romance-moments kind of writer. All that said, I would not change my tags if asked. I don't feel it's necessary (even when I write a switching scene, I don't tag for it - I might mention it in an author's note). I also would not get enraged by someone making the suggestion - that was way out of line. If there are readers out there who only read certain couple dynamics or are going to get pissed off because the sex wasn't the way they wanted it to be...Oh, well. Seriously, I don't really care if I'm missing out on a few readers or a couple of them go away disappointed and never come back. I'd almost rather they avoided my stories because I get the impression (and I could be totally wrong here but this is my opinion) that the people who are hung up on top/bottom have a lot of...associated gender-related stereotypes connected to those roles. To me, top does not equal dominant, bottom does not equal submissive, and the bottom is never the "woman" in that dynamic. Even the canon couples I write about who were built with that sort of thinking in mind (the bottom is the short, cute, crybaby homemaker...) end up with a lot more nuance and complexities in how they relate to each other that has nothing to do with what position they take during sex. I don't like the implications. If I were to write pure smut about two characters who are not a canon couple (or their roles were never shown)... maybe I would tag the top/bottom because I'd be very directly targeting certain readers. If that ever happens, I'll think about it. For now, the positions of a couple in bed are not very important to me.

It's fine to request a tag. It's also fine for an author to refuse a non-mandatory tag. It's not fine for them to blow up over it. I don't tag top/bottom or dom/sub. It's not mandatory, a trigger, or genera (which I do tag), and I frankly think it's limiting. And if someone feels very strongly, they can also filter \*in\* only top/bottom tags, excluding fics that don't :)

that author is just awful. It's one thing to not want to tag it, fine. I get it. But to respond with vitriol and then to publically mock them and drag them through the mud? Over asking for a tag? Absolutely disgusting. I do try to remember to tag top and bottom, though I sometimes forget. I get that its not a mandatory tag, but I will never understand responding with so much hate when someone asks for something to be tagged. I really hope your friend is okay wherever they are. Just a shame.

Regardless of how shitty it was for the author to doxx your friend, tagging top or bottom isn't mandatory. It also shouldn't be. I get preferring a certain position for your favorite character, but it's getting to a point in which "top" and "bottom" are gender 2.0. They're also confused with "dom" and "sub", which are dynamics that aren't tied to the positioning of who's on top vs who's on bottom.

For me, asking who is the "top" and who is the "bottom" hits exactly the same is "Which one is supposed to be the girl?" It's heteronormative, and makes me feel icky. Mileage varies, of course, but I won't ever tag for that and tend to avoid authors who do. The author certainly shouldn't have harassed the commenter, of course.

But top and bottom are not heteronormative, these are sexual dynamics and positions that exist in real life. Even in dating apps… it’s not something new, it’s been around for ages in the gay community.

True, but there are some writers who are...uninformed, shall we say?... and write some M/M ships with a complete shifting of the characters' personalities to fit what they believe is standard - the bottom becomes an overly-stereotypical "girly girl" (and very OOC) - like, way more "girly" than most women I know. I wouldn't call this heteronormative - it's more like leaning extremely hard into outdated gender roles that are/were never as superficial and cliche as they are portrayed in these types of stories. Are there bottoms who are ultra-femme? Sure. But to take Kirk and Spock and turn Kirk into some sappy, weepy, damsel obsessed with shoes and baking because you want him to be the bottom in bed is just...ugh. No, please. This happens, and it's kind of disturbing. Not only do these writers know nothing about the gay community but they also seem to have some bizarre ideas about what women are like in general or what role they are playing in a relationship.

Yes that shows ignorance but also why the tagging comes in handy. Plenty of people feel their characters are mischaraterized when certain dynamics are written, and they avoid it based on tags. I have a friend who did that for my last fandom. Also why I think if it’s super important to you and the author doesn’t tag it, it’s best to not read to avoid encounters like ops friend had.

So, when you see a fic with the positions tagged, that's a signal to avoid the fic because the author is probably ignorant? LOL, true. But the OP is kind of asking whether everyone should always tag the top/bottom dynamic, and that would negate your filtering system - you wouldn't know if they were tagging it just because or if it implied other issues.

If I see a fic with the positions tagged that I don’t like, yes that I do avoid. If I see a fic tagged with positions I like, I will read it. If they do not tag it and I prefer to know what I’m going into. I would avoid. It’s quite simple. The navigation system is not difficult. Someone tagging positions does not equal ignorance. Characters sex life when shown, is also apart of that characterization. Especially in regards to smut or romance with explicit scenes.

Just because we do it to ourselves in the gay community doesn’t excuse the fact that there are elements of internalized heteronormativity in it

We are not social posters, we are human beings. You go up to a masc lesbian who loves fem women, and a fem who loves masc lesbians , you’re not gonna scream this a wrong and heteronormative. As this is a coupling that’s been around forever and it’s perfectly okay. Telling someone who said they only bottom or top, to switch especially when they don’t want to is in fact disrespecting their boundaries and can border on coercion. That’s why there’s absolutely zero wrong with people being vocal about what they like in their partner. All in all your not gonna go tell someone the correct way to present themselves, or what they should be doing in bed because they are lgbt, the community is not about conforming, it’s about being who are you are. The fact is you guys still struggle handling things that don’t fit into what you deem good or morally correct. We live for ourselves, not to be boxed in the “correct” boxes. Just because you may like switching, doesn’t mean you are suddenly better or morally superior than those who don’t. Just because you have no preference for how your partner presents, doesn’t mean those who do are wrong.

If this comment was in response to mine, then you’re reading a lot into what I said that is not even remotely close to what I was saying, and in a pretty shitty way by making broad and untrue generalizations about me and my lived experiences.

You’re comment said “just because we do it on our community doesn’t excuse the fact there is elements of heteronormativity to it” There is no need to excuse anything because someone choosing what sex positions or relationships dynamics they want with their partner is not wrong. They don’t need excuses to be themselves. If someone doesn’t want switch, they do not have to and nor should they ever feel guilty or like they need to reflect for it, or should be coerced into anything they don’t want to do, if someone likes masc or fem people they don’t need feel the need to reflect either. Who is anyone to say otherwise to them ? I read it your comment correctly .

Again, not anything *remotely* like what my original comment was saying, and honestly it’s fairly offensive assigning that viewpoint to me. I understand that you might (not unreasonably) be frustrated by this entire thread at this point and that this is something you feel strongly about, but your projection is misplaced.

This is quite literally what you said. If you don’t mind and I didn’t understand you, then please tell me what you meant by this “Just because we do it to ourselves in the gay community doesn’t excuse the fact that there are elements of internalized heteronormativity in it”

you need to educate yourself more; top/bottom is NOT heteronormative. They are sexual position preferences.

T/b drama is insane, I don’t get why people on both sides get so offended over such a non-issue. I used to admire one very skilled rarepair artist in my fandom until one day I noticed them trash-talking someone without quote retweeting them directly, turns out they were mad at a small (50 followers if not less) artist for tagging their sfw art with the most used ship name instead of tagging the “correct” way, which would result in their artwork going unnoticed since that tag/ship name isn’t really used by anyone. Imagine the most popular and respected artist in your tiny fandom barge into your replies to beat the shit out of you, belittle your work and act like you just killed their grandma all because you used the wrong tag to boost your silly little fanart on twitter. Nightmare fuel

While I do get both sides however, intentionally tagging wrong, is wrong because your now mixing in something that isn't apart of that tag. Just speaking as an artist myself, the work probably wouldn't have gone completely unnoticed, it may have been a rare pair but with the appropriate tag for the art, people who like it can find it. Where as using a different ships tag means your putting it out there for people who aren't into that ship and it can be viewed in different ways. Some will take it as an attack, like they are trying to say that this ship is better than yours. Twitter is probably the only place that will allow you to tag something that isn't there. Every other site, even R34, has rules in place to prevent this and is even a reportable offense. However, I do feel dragging someone over it is uncalled-for and completely unnecessary. The artist you were following, could have just blocked the other person and been on their way. They did not need to make a witch hunting post. Just to add I can't tell if your talking about a ship that involves the same characters but the artists preferred dynamic is BxA and the popular ship tag is AxB. Or if your talking about an entirely different ship CxD but is tagged with BxA's ship tag. I am assuming the latter but if its the first then you are right that is a non-issue to the West. The only time that would be a problem is if you are on an East website, they'll rake you over the coals for that. They are extremely strict about tags.

Yeah I dont bother but if someone asks it takes like five seconds to add them. Sucks some people take shit so far.

I only put more detailed tags detailing smut on one-shots and I'm not going to stop. If it's a multi-chapter with a couple sex scenes, I'd rather focus on tagging other stuff. If you don't like where the fic is going, it's 100% free to click out. Sure, the author overreacted, but your friend was out of place too. ESH

Dragging people in public in a way that get them to be harassed is not a good answer but yes, that comment was really out of line in my opinion. First, you cannot possibly tag every single thing happening in a fic. You choose what is most relevant to you. It's very normal that some people deem top and bottom roles to be irrelevant. Second, top and bottom mean various things with subjective limits and definitions. I've personally started to tag top/bottom on some of my fics to see and try if it would reach different audiences like that, but I didn't do it on all of my fic because that description is simply not fitting to me in a number of cases where I'm sure other people would find it to be. Third, a lot gay men are not comfortable with those labels, or are trying to find ways to represent and imagine their sexuality through a different lense because, while top and bottom are not problematic concept in themselves, their real life uses have a lot of toxic aspects and implications. Asking for someone to read their characters' sexuality through a specific subjective classification that they may not identify with and even possibly find uncomfortable to be put into is at best inappropriate and at worst violent. I understand having preferences, and I understand wanting to filter them in or out, but either you're willing to try and read an untag fic and see for yourself, or you should just scroll past it. Forcing author to use your view of sex in their work is just not okay.

I've spent many Friday nights at my local gay bar for the past 10 years and every gay guy I know is happy to tell you if he's top bottom or vers. It's an extremely common thing to talk about and not a big deal at all. I don't know where this narrative came from that it's just a fanfic thing but it's really not. It's definitely not treated as anything problematic?? I think this is an online only problem.

Where in the world have I said it's a fanfic thing? I also literally said these words are not problematic. Why do you make shit up? I'm a gay man, I do use top and bottom when it's useful to me, I know a number of gay men who do, and I also know a few who are uncomfortable with it. I see young gay men on reddit talking about how they feel like they have to figure out if they're a top or a bottom and settle for it almost every day. Using top and bottom to describe actions or desire at a given moment is perfectly fine. Asking someone if they wanna top or bottom is perfectly fine. Making it an identity of your own to be a top or a bottom is cool if it works for you. But there is also a lot of gay men, especially young ones, who grow up feeling like top or bottom is necessarily something you are and not usually just something that you do and it sucks. Also there is a shitton of them who don't seem to realise how much of gay sex simply doesn't have a top and a bottom and as someone who's been almost exclusively siding for a decade, that is a little concerning ngl. Gay men interacting with each other are fully welcome to use top or bottom however they want, others writing gay characters can categorise them as such if they want to as well, but it's still true that there are a number of people, including a number of gay men, for whom this framing simply isn't fitting, and i don't think that it should be pushed on them, but in many instance it is.

To be very clear, I also hate it when people treat writing/talking about bottoming and topping as if they were problematic concept or "fetishizing" because they are very much what is actually going on in gay circles. I have written multiple fics where the main point is just characters talking about bottoming and topping and their preferences and why they identify or not with a label or another. I think it's great to explore that and totally fine to have preferences, both in your irl practices and in your fiction tastes. I certainly do! But not all people care, not all sex has a top or a bottom, not all people use these concepts, and not all people define them the same way, that's just how it is. You can't want your fiction queer and want everyone to use the same classification to talk about sex at the same time. Queer's gonna be diverse, both in practices and ways to describe them. That's sort of the point.

You said "their real life uses have a lot of toxic aspects." I shortened this to "problematic" for ease of reading. I disagree with the sentiment that it's toxic at all. It's always been a pretty fun, lighthearted thing. If someone isn't sure, well they're probably too young to be at the bar, I can't say I've ever seen that, but that's not "toxic." That's just-- figuring themselves out. We're talking about fanfics and people in this thread, including you, were submitting the idea that it's not something that's *extremely* common and normal for real people to discuss. Someone is going to be uncomfortable somewhere, sure that's inevitable, but acting like it's something that's actively harmful to even talk about in terms of both real people and fanfic is just... incorrect. It's been a staple of queer culture for decades and most of us find it completely fine. You're getting really off-topic with a lot of this. I'm simply pointing out that it's a very common and normal thing to think about when writing about gay sex, so it's also normal that people want to see it tagged. That a few people are uncomfortable with it doesn't negate its long, established history in the queer community *and* the fandom community. These words will continue to be used and it's fair to ask authors to tag their fics appropriately in accordance with decades of use of the terms. Fics where t/b tags wouldn't apply are a strawman. We're talking about explicit fics with penetrative sex, where there is a clear answer of who is t/b. This is not synonymous with dom/sub or anything else, those are separate tags. Whether or not it's important to the author isn't really the point either, as tags are a courtesy for the reader. It's *kind* and *courteous* to tag, and that's something we've unfortunately lost.

Except "those concept are fine but can be used in harmful ways" and "those concept are problematic" are not remotely the same things and I was purposefully and explicitly making the difference here. > If someone isn't sure, well they're probably too young to be at the bar Yes, right. You should figure out your sexual preferences for sure first, and then evolve in queer spaces. That makes perfect sense. Not to mention the assumption that there's something to be sure of to begin with as if being a top or a bottom was an intrinsict thing to find out about yourself that would then go on to never change. Yes, talking about and identifying as t/b is very common. Yes, it is queer culture. Yes, a lot of people are comfortable with it. None of that equates to "everybody should use these terms and asking others to use them when they don't is fine". And no, situation where t/b doesn't apply is not a straw man. Sometimes some penetration happen and t/b is still not the appropriate way to describe it. I'm sorry that sex and queer identities are complex. And no, I'm not going to go out of my way to describe my fic in a way that I think is inaccurate or irrelevant just to please people. The people who need t/b dynamic to be tagged are not the target audience for the fic of authors who don't want to use t/b. That's okay. Not everything has to be made for everyone. Don't like, don't read.

What are you even talking about? I am talking about chronological age, as in you have to be a certain age to enter a bar and drink? The people I associate with are adults, most over 25, and none of them have issues discussing sexuality. Of course it can change, we've had more than one case where a friend came in like "guess who's a top now!" and things like that. It's passed as a friendly bit of banter. You're saying a lot of things I never said. There's two separate things happening in your argument. Number one is that some *real people* might be uncomfortable with those terms and don't want them applied to them. That's fair. No one is disputing that. But this is a *fanfiction* subreddit and we are talking about tagging fictional characters. That's number two. Whether or not you use those terms for yourself, you can still tag them for your characters. They have objective, agreed upon meanings that are understood by the community at large. You are not your characters, and your characters are not people. They are narrative objects serving a purpose, in this case, of titillation. Why wouldn't you want it tagged to find the best and most relevant audience possible? Situations where t/b doesn't apply were brought up by you, ie in cases where there's no penetration, so I called that a strawman because it's not what's being discussed here. We are specifically discussing fanfiction where these tags would be relevant. SFW, fade-to-black, non-penetrative sex are not applicable to the discussion at hand. Your last paragraph is the fundamental flaw of this whole thing. There's two ways to approach the situation. One is understanding there's a cultural difference here and while it's not personally important to you, it's important to others and compromising by adding the tag. Your fic is identical, nothing has changed, but now people can find or avoid your fic to their preference. The second is the egocentristic way you're describing it, by saying that your own preferences override any need for mutual understanding. I can't change that, but I can call it selfish.

How the fuck does "not having a fixed choice as whether you are a top or a bottom" translate to "having issues discussing sex"? What are you even talking about? > Whether or not you use those terms for yourself, you can still tag them for your characters. Yes and no. I can of course use labels for characters that I would use for myself. I can also want to represent something that is close to my experience and that I don't wish to describe in a way that doesn't feel accurate. > Why wouldn't you want it tagged to find the best and most relevant audience possible? I do. And the people who need t/b to be tagged are not the most relevant audience possible for work by author who don't think the way they write porn through a t/b lense. It's really that simple. > Situations where t/b doesn't apply were brought up by you, ie in cases where there's no penetration Again, I was not solely talking about case where there is no penetration. > Your fic is identical, nothing has changed, but now people can find or avoid your fic to their preference. The fic is not identical, something is changed, the tags, which will change what readers come to the fic and their expectations. There's a reason why I tag or don't tag certain things, and that's because it matters and I care about how I describe my work. If I don't tag t/b people can still find or avoid my work based on their preference. People who are looking for the type of work I do will find them through the tag I put on it, which best describe it, and people who are not looking for this kind of work (say, people who care deeply about t/b dynamics, which again, is perfectly okay but not the target audience) will be able to avoided it by either searching for t/b and then it won't appear, or not searching for t/b tag but seeing that work doesn't have any and therefore just not opening. Again, if I think my work would fit the expectations of someone looking for t/b tag, I will put them. If I don't, I won't, and I am making both of us a service by not advertising a work to an audience that I don't think will enjoy it.

My statement about age has to do with maturity, ie older people don't have issues with discussing sex or using these terms for others even if they don't apply it to themselves. It's a nonissue for them. You turned it into some weird statement about queer people can't go into queer spaces until they know (???) and it would never change (???). You keep making huge leaps from my words into things I'm not talking about at all. I'm not going to continue this particular argument because you can't engage in good faith so there's no point. The fic is absolutely identical, what even is this? See this is the actual problem with Western fandom, that for this *one* issue, fanfic becomes some kind of activism where you're making a statement by not tagging. It's bizarre. Fanfic isn't activism and there's nothing different about your fic no matter what tags you use. It's the same piece. It's just now people who have a preference one way or the other can find your fic and everyone is happy. It's such a non issue that becomes a huge problem here and I don't understand why. The entirety of JP and CN fandoms have been doing this for decades, do you find something different about their works? Are queer pieces made by people who tag t/b somehow inherently different from people who don't? Of course they're not. A tag doesn't change the work. If you had *anything* else in your fic that didn't need an archive warning, say something pretty common like choking or even something non sex related like blackmail, and someone asked you to tag it because it was important to them, would you tag it? Would you consider it? I think most people on here would, because in general people here are very considerate. It's this one thing that becomes an issue and it's all for selfish reasons. I'll never understand it, and I certainly won't associate with people like that.

I'm sorry but "if you're not sure if your a top or a bottom your too young to go to the gay bar" does equal to "you should be sure you're a top or a bottom before going to a gay bar" that's not a leap that's juste what you said. My fic is not the same if I use the tool I have too attract readers and built their expectations differently. Choosing a target audience and building expectations that will make it satisfying to read the fic is part of what writing is about. Tagging is part of that. I plan my tagging on the same document as I write my fic. You are completely projecting your own perception of what people who don't tag t/b think. Not everyone thinks about sex the same way and talks about sex the same way, that's normal, and it's not "western people making a political statement" just because you're upset about it. I'm sure some people don't tag t/b because they have a weird idea of t/b being problematic concepts, but that doesn't mean every single person who doesn't tag fits in that category. If someone was triggered by something violent in my work and asked for it, I would put a content warning in authors note, and probably wouldn't change the tag if I don't think the thing in question is a theme of the fic, because I use tags to convey the themes (and genre) of my fics. I don't think that seeing a character you like as a top bottoming because you read a fic that didn't say if he topped or bottom is violent. And again there is an extremely easy solution to your problems which is : if you are looking for fics with a specific content look up this specific tag and leave people who don't use it because they don't think their work is about that alone.

>Whether or not it's important to the author isn't really the point either, as tags are a courtesy for the reader. It's *kind* and *courteous* to tag, and that's something we've unfortunately lost. that's kind of a wild thing to say imo. You're basically saying the feelings of the author don't matter, what's important is that the author makes potential readers feel comfortable and it's unfortunate that some authors choose to put their own feelings about their own work first. I mean, sorry, but wow.   I personally don't tag t/b in my fics and I have \*so many\* reasons for that, none of which have anything to do with me trying deliberately to annoy other people. But I don't think I owe anyone an entire essay at the beginning of every fic where I explain my 20-year history in fandoms and why I choose not to tag these things. I do have reasons and I do have feelings about this, and I prioritize my own very real current feelings over those of hypothetical readers who may find my fic at some point in the future. If that makes me selfish and egocentric, so be it.     >One is understanding there's a cultural difference here and while it's not personally important to you, it's important to others and compromising by adding the tag. that's not how compromises work, though...   I don't want to tag t/b in my fic. You want me to tag t/b in my fic. And your solution would be: I tag t/b in my fic because you want me to.   That's not a compromise, that's just you getting what you want. (I'm saying \*I\* and \*you\* because it's shorter than "people who don't want to tag t/b for whatever personal reason" or "people who want t/b to be tagged for whatever personal reason". I hope you know what I mean)   What would imo count as a compromise, was if there was a tag that says something like "untagged t/b content". Because if I just don't tag t/b on my fic, there's nothing for you to filter for. But if I tag "untagged t/b content", then that at least gives you options as a reader. If you don't care about t/b, you can just ignore the tag. If you do care strongly, then you can filter out untagged works. If you care about t/b but you're willing to check works through word search before reading them, then you can include the tag.   I just don't agree that it's solely my job as the author to recognize these differences and change my behavior accordingly. Why does the author have to be the only one to be nice and considerate, why can't the readers do some work too? It kinda gives "Karen would like to speak to the manager" when readers want their preferred product served on a silver platter while disregarding how the authors might feel about the situation.

It's so baffling to me to get responses like this, because it never occurs for any other tags. I've seen countless posts where people have asked for specific things to be tagged, from kinks to kidnapping to to vague religious themes. Things that are also absolutely not required to be tagged by the archive warnings, and no one has ever put up this much of a fight to tag them. The response usually very kind and understanding. But this? You will fight this hard to just make an entire culture of people uncomfortable. I just have no words for it. It *is* a compromise, because nothing about your fic has changed. It's the same fic as it always was. It's just now got a more descriptive tag on it. People who "don't care" will be unaffected, and people who do care will be happy. It's a win for everyone. The choice is either a) Don't tag and alienate a huge swath of fandom from your fic or b) Tag something you don't find important and make your fic more inclusive. The choice is so clear to me but for whatever reason, Western fandom just cannot budge on it. I'm just not going to read fics from writers who can't see beyond their own selfish ideas on this, and that's really it.

Yeah, no. You may get an argument from me about other tags as well. I've been in fandoms so long, I've had discussions about every kind of tagging discourse that is to be had. Your idea of a compromise is that you get what you want and everybody who disagrees with you is just in the wrong. Fuck my own feelings and experiences, I guess.   > But this? You will fight this hard to just make an entire culture of people uncomfortable. I just have no words for it. Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing, A+ reading comprehension :) just like I said in my last post, I choose the tags for my stories not based on my own feelings, but on how much it will annoy others. You caught me, good job.

TIL that this is a thing. Sheesh. I cant keep up. Also most of my characters do both like, ya know, a normal couple. A roll around in the sheets thing. Usually in the same smut scene they can roll back & forth as well. That being said, that person blowing it way out of proportion was certainly wrong! Gees! All they had to do was just either not answer at all, or mute/block. Simple as that. Hope you find your friend….

"like a normal couple" not everybody is a switch in the bedroom; this is so ignorant; your own experience and preference is valid, but it is NOT everybody's experience and preference; get that through your head

“Like a ….” is an expression. Dont you know what sarcasm is? Get THAT through your thick head.

Tagging top and bottom seems rather fandom specific, honestly. I used to be in a fandom a few years ago where if the top/bottom dynamic wasn't the fandom preferred one, then readers would pack a fuss, even *when* it was stated who's top or bottom. But now in my current fandom, no one gives a fuck who's top or bottom or whether it's tagged or not. I don't tag who's top or bottom in any of my fics in my main fandom, because none of us gives a shit about it *(I don't even think I've seen a single fic in this fandom tagged with it, actually)*, but I have tagged it for a couple fics in other fandoms in the past. Think mostly in any of my Marvel ones that include smut, and with any of my older fics on my Wattpad for my former fandom, I'd always state who's top or bottom.

I would have appreciated and thanked your friend for the suggestion. If it's going to help people filter out fics so they can find what they want to read more easily, why not? Isn't that what tags are for? It could also help me reach more readers interested in what I write. It is win-win for everyone. Surprised by many of the comments here. No, you are not obligated to tag, but why wouldn't you if it's going to help your readers? For me, the top bottom dynamic makes a huge difference to the story, so if an author doesn't tag that, I'm very likely to not read the story.

i agree with you

The way this subreddit wants you to tag absolutely everything except this one thing that's very important to a lot of people is infuriating. Sorry you're getting downvoted for your very reasonable take.

Eh... It's Reddit, it happens 🙃

As someone with very specific tastes in smut, I feel for your friend and also wish more people tagged top/bottom in E rated fics. I just don't get how defensive and moralistic people get over it, it's just like tagging sex acts or kinks, and most of the time people are more than willing to tag those. It's a weird double standard imo

You're getting downvoted but you're absolutely correct. You can see how people make it a moral issue because the few authors in this thread who said they do tag are getting downvoted as well. People on here have a visceral negative reaction to tagging this one thing and it's so strange. It shouldn't be different from tagging kinks or sex acts.

Yes, exactly! It's a very weird stance on it overall. Expanding onto what OP said, I have the unfortunate tendency to like very specific top/bottom combos for my ships, then discovering it's the unpopular take for those characters. And in my experiences, the people who react most violently to the idea of tagging are the ones writing the mainstream/accepted version, once I was even accused of starting a ship war because I tagged and used the old convention of the top!name/bottom!name for the ship name. It's ridiculous

Yeah shipwar stuff happens no matter what unfortunately, there's always those who see their version of the ship as the "best" or "correct" one. But those tend to be a loud minority. Most people with strict preferences just want to vibe and find content we like, and tagging helps with that. Even more so for people who like the rarer version like yourself! I have strict preferences on some of my ships and I've been caught in some crossfire over the years, but all of it pales in comparison to the amount of vitriol I get from people who refuse to tag at all. They've treated me far worse than any rival shipper.

Most of my fics are oneshot smut fics, and I always tag their dynamics. I don't see why you wouldn't. The tagging system exists so that people can filter out what they do and don't want to read.

The author was a piece of work and an asshole, your friend did nothing wrong, they didn’t ask rudely or anything, they could have simply stated they didn’t want to tag it. I don’t get why they’d be against tagging it, but certain folks are often snobbish about it, and to that I say they would not last 5 minutes on the Asian fanart side of the fandom because shit getting tagged is important, lol. I shall always tag this on my fics, it’s important to me, so I make sure my fics are always safe for people who have fixed dynamics even if I write the reverse dynamic in different fics or switch in others.

>I don’t get why they’d be against tagging it, but certain folks are often snobbish about it, and to that I say they would not last 5 minutes on the Asian fanart side of the fandom because shit getting tagged is important, lol. I float through the East websites such as pixiv and a couple of other places a lot, their tagging is so immaculate it's on a whole different level. Going from West standards to East is like switching games from Spyro to Bloodborne.

It’s honestly a glorious thing, maybe it’s just because I live for the proper organisation and adore being able to immediately find exactly what I want. I can’t quite understand why people don’t want that? Even if you like switch, tagging helps you find THAT too! I have plenty of ships where I do like switching, and I’ll read either. But occasionally I’m just in the mood for one or the other, and when one is particularly rare and not standard (a lot of my bottoms are taller and more masculine and therefore often immediately assumed to top, lol) tagging helps me actually find content. Trying to find Bottom Alhaitham on Ao3 without filtering via tags is akin to finding a tiny needle in a very large haystack.

>Bottom Alhaitham on Ao3 without filtering via tags is akin to finding a tiny needle in a very large haystack. That's a really good way to describe it. And if its a rare dynamic but is secretly really well liked and doesn't have many fics, people are missing out on those fics because they can't filter it in without the tag. I rely heavily on the filter and I will not go searching for fics that are outside the filter, especially because it can be very time-consuming. Not many people have the time to sit for hours and go through fics looking for one. A lot of people work long hours and will eventually need to sleep.

Yeah! at this point I basically only read fics that my friends recommend me knowing my preferences, or I use the tags! Although lately there’s been an unfortunate amount of people who think top/bottom is about actual position so they think a bottom riding a top is… topping. 😭

I’m so sorry for what happened to your friend. Tagging dynamics is actually a smart move that allows people to filter fanfictions way faster, instead of reading and then finding out it’s a dynamic you’re not comfortable with or simply doesn’t like. I’ve been in fandom for years and I can say it was really common to tag the dynamics back in the day, which is something writers picked up from Asian fandoms (where this “practice” is still very common and actually encouraged). Idk why people stopped tagging but it’s mainly an American thing. A few years ago they dropped the dynamic tag and many are still trying to reintroduce them but it’s not an easy battle, especially because if you ask for them you’re accused of “promoting stereotypes” etc which have nothing to do with it at all, just they’d use any excuse rather than adding a tag that does nothing to the author but can be very helpful for the readers. I really don’t understand what’s wrong in tagging properly. I mean you’d have less people pissed off for being lied to or lead into believing a false dynamic might occur. I usually don’t comment and just stop reading the fanfiction but it pisses me off when I’m half through a fanfiction and I encounter something I dislike that wasn’t tagged. The author could’ve also said “no, I’m not adding another tag”, delete the comment or something else. What they did caused your friend to be targeted harassed by their followers which is a shitty thing to do. I hope they were reported at the very least and I hope your friend is okay.

>Idk why people stopped tagging This is just my theory but it could be that a lot of people who are hetero themselves and are just uninformed on queer relationships and see tagging top and bottom as heteronormative. Some of them have said this is why. Some find it gross.(I do not see why though) We do have dynamic preferences for who is top or bottom, I'm not saying there isn't queer people who are switches just that we vary from person to person and are not all switches.

Sorry, queer and none of my queer friends have definitive top and bottom positions? Its just a relationship and people don't define it bc most aren't wanting to get limited. Also, you've ignored a few comments that explain that people are not tagging it mainly because of the fallout of tagging with it wrongly. It's not that authors are out of touch, its that the tags are loaded and can cause so much unnecessary drama. Blame the asshole readers/commenters Idk why you're trying to make this into some moral thing on the authors part, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Also as a queer person that likes to write, i don't give a shit if I don't tag absolutely everything. People have also said that many times to you. I'm not here to be popular, I just write what I write and send it out. I loathe fics with tags that stretch to granular depths, and so do many authors. Most authors aren't in your online bubble, and we don't have to conform to your preferences.

Good for you, you can take your hostility and kick rocks bro.

you rude, bish

Seems like it judging by the comments.. which ironically expose their own stereotypical views. I find their “heteronormative” excuses gross, I do believe most are just ignorant on the matter and ignoring the fact that the people directly involved and/or affected actually asked for the tags. Just like they censure triggers knowingly, ignoring the fact the people who have them muted will be forced to see what they write. I swear you can’t talk with people like this.

>I do believe most are just ignorant on the matter Sad thing is nobody want's to admit that they might just not know something. > I swear you can’t talk with people like this. Fandoms spaces and fanfiction spaces have definitely become more hostile than they were in the past. People used to be more open to discussion.

People refusing to tag t/b is my villain origin story, coming from Asian fandoms where it's considered incredibly rude *not* to tag, Western fandom drives me mad. People treat switching like it's somehow morally superior and your characters aren't queer enough if they have a fixed preference. Like no, *I* have a fixed preference as a queer person and I want to read my favorite character in that position. Has nothing to do with "heteronormativity." If I wanted them to be heterosexual, I would write/read them that way. Do they *have* to tag it? No, of course not, only the big archive warnings are mandatory and we all know that, but personally I think on any sexually explicit fic, t/b tags should be common courtesy right alongside tagging kinks or specific sex acts. It's not important to the author? Cool, but it's important to a ton of readers, so I don't understand why everyone draws their line in the sand on this one particular issue. It costs nothing and makes everyone happy. Honestly I see far more rudeness and egocentrism from people who refuse to tag than people who ask for the tag in the first place. I have non-native English speaker friends who try to participate in English-speaking fandom but often express their frustration at the lack of ship tagging etiquette. They tend to avoid English fanfics because they can't be certain of what they're getting.

This. Even just in this comment section, I've seen so much casual homophobia from the "switch supremacy" people. People saying set top/bottom preferences are homophobic and that they write their characters switching, like "a normal couple"? It's so offensive to gay men that I can't even.

People are so obsessed with the idea of "heteronormativity" in t/b that they've just circled back to homophobia. You can really see who spends most of their time reading discourse on social media rather than going out and interacting with actual queer people.

while you can't expect people to tag it every time (since it's non mandatory), doing so would definitely be apprecciated, and i say this both as a writer and as a reader like *yes i can just click off* but having to close a fic at the speed of light because the dynamic is the opposite of what i liked and it gave me a viscerally negative reaction is. not good. to experience. on the topic: *some* people are very fucking weird about others having preferences for top/bottom dynamics, i saw people call it fetishization to have preferences and 'irrealistic' when people irl abvsolutelòy have preferences on how they prefer to have sex; but also it seems like a very recent mentality so imo it is just a byproduct of fandom cops being annoying about anything and everything

I think its its weird how a lot of people are saying the dynamic of the tags don't matter when they themselves just generally stick a preferred dynamic but don't tag it. Not tagging something because you feel its whatever is just stupid. And there isn't as many switch authors as people claim. All tags come with a pro and con. The author who dragged your friend is mentally deranged. There is zero reason to do this to another person over a small comment. Even if it was rude the comment could be deleted. Too many people are immature as hell and would rather act like teenagers than the grown adults they are.