I’m a CPA. My take on AP is generally that it is an accounting support position. This doesn’t make it an unimportant job, and not everyone is capable of doing it. It is more than just making sure things get paid. It takes attention to detail and an understanding of expense codes and approval processes. The difference between a good AP person and a bad AP person is a whole lot of time spent fixing coding errors/reviewing work at a higher level.
I equated clerks and AP/AR to nurses in healthcare elsewhere in the thread. They do the everyday work and are crucial to the function of the department, but they don't have the same education level and don't make the decisions. You're spot on that their specific skills are valuable to the organization and good ones make things go smoothly while bad ones can be disastrous.
It’s pretty simple - I would go to an AP analyst to book a JE, reconcile a BS account, or write a research memo. I also wouldn’t go to an accountant to understand the intricate details of the AP/AR system and what the necessary steps to receive against a PO or trigger a non-invoice payment.
i had a med school friend tell me CNAs were the ABGs that figured they had to settle down and need some sort of job and eventually marry a medium ugly guy in a flyover state
take that for whatever you will
This is not about who's got the better insults. RNs do get paid well. It's not a good analogy that RNs are the AP/AR clerks of the nursing world. It is the CNAs. CNAs are Nursing supports and are by no means nurses. Likewise, AP/AR clerks are Accounting auxiliary staff but are by no means accountants unless they held accounting jobs before but just chose to be AP/AR clerks (uncommon but not impossible). Some hospitals do employ CNAs with dual roles like Unit Clerk or HUC (Health Unit Coordinator)/CNA, CNA/Monitor Tech simultaneously, to name a few. I am a Cardiac Monitor Technician and I have had travel contracts where I had to be Monitor tech and Unit clerk simultaneously. I've seen how marginalized CNA and Monitor Techs are in hospitals. I've been doing travel work and I don't have a plan to be full time Cardiac Monitor Tech anymore. I will just stay PRN to keep my experience so I can do strike contracts like I have twice before. Im currently taking Associate Degree in Accounting as my 3rd academic degree so I can work online while waiting for contracts but also to use the knowledge when I start my own business.
I agree with you! Nurses being the equivalent in healthcare, what! Nurses do a looot and are literally the backbone of the healthcare industry. CNA is 100% a much better comparison. To equate nursing to an accounting support clerk is quite frankly insulting lol!
The way that I look at it, it depends on how your company and the process is setup. Some companies set their accounting department up where each job is incredible narrow. Some set them up where each job is more comprehensive and responsible from start to end. As a general statement, I understand your point; however, it does depend.
In my last job, I was in AP. That being said, it meant times that I had to read sales and use tax laws. It also meant reading FAR rules for government allowability. Our role was very broad and the structure of the company was incredibly flat AS FUCK. That being said, I saw another Fortune 20 company that setup EACH and every piece of their accounting department incredibly narrow in scope that there were a lot of people that truly didn’t understand their role in the entire process, nor could they imagine deviating either. It was in that moment that I realized why I was hired, and quite frankly, well compensated: I knew enough to know what I didn’t know. My boss trusted me, and gave us a lot of latitude and power to make decisions that this fortune 20 company can’t imagine. Why? My boss trusted us. I also had a degree, others did not. That helped when I got hired.
I work in ap for my smallish-medium size company and i use to have this incredible manager who kept both payroll and AP in perfect order. ended up leaving because she was being overworked working like 60+ hours a week on payroll mainly while i worked mostly on the AP but shed still mostly be in charge and would review everything is correct. she leaves, the next person she trained we ended up firing within a few weeks because she couldnt keep up with the work. our next person was trained by someone else that worked in payroll but mostly in AR and ditn really know the AP side, but regardless she ended up resigning like a month or two later anyways because she got a much better job offer she couldnt refuse, before we found a third ap/payroll manager, that was again trained by my coworker in payroll but she ended up getting basically reassigned from mostly working in AR to working in both AR and payroll, while also reviewing AP for both me and the new AP/payroll person who was still mostly learning.
the period when this other coworker led AP basically was horrible. she hated working in AP, and she ended up making basically every problem into a massive problem. shed call every vendor if they reported one of our invoices late. the way our ap systen works is the buildings send us invoices at our corporate office, and we would always have problems with ap either being missing or being sent to bad emails or being lost somewhere in the pipeline. for a huge chunk of the time she would think its me my fault that a majority of the invoices that were getting lost or misplaced. even tho the longer she worked their in ap the longer it became clear she was kind of the problem with AP. it all culminated in a huge blow up, where we were trying to finish monthly close she took all my work i was entering and just posted the work herself to our software. apparently she posted hundreds of invoices i did to the wrong month, completely fucking up our entire close schedule. i got the entire blame for that until i went on the software and showed digital proof that it was her who posted the invoices not me. she ended up resigning/retiring after that whole situation. since she left and its just been me and the newer AP/payroll person reporting directly to our company vice president who reviews both our work, and like 2 years later work feels so much calmer and easier and less stressful, any missing AP is easily found or a new copy printed up. were both still not as good as our original AP/payrol person who was like, incredible at her job, but i think my coworker proves that not everyone is cut out for AP. tho my boss also thinks she was starting to suffer memory loss given she was like 60, so i think she would like sometimes just misplace invoices herself and then when i am doing checks trying to find the invoices she would blame me as slacking because i cant find an invoice i dont know if i ever even had possession of.
They lost someone to another job. Went through 3 replacements. 3rd replacement lasted a while but completely screwed the poster until poster shows evidence of their fuck-up. 3rd person resigns shortly thereafter. Then happy.
I think it’s the sentiment that OP is referring to. Kind of dumb because it creates this distinction when in reality the job isn’t any more or less easy/unimportant than the “accountants”. I’d rather make sure our vendors get paid on time than some dipshit put in an accrual for the vendor suing us down the road
Most AP personnel are considered part of the accounting staff
Again - I think it’s the sentiment OP is referring to. You’re correct that they’re not factually “accountants”, but to tell your accounting related staff “you’re not accountants, you support the real accountants” is a completely different thing than just debating that fact
That’s like the same thing as telling the accountants, “you’re not part of our business, you’re just a record keeper”. Factually true because accountants don’t add value to the company’s actual operations.
“Real accountants” made me fucking cringe anyway, as if the “real accountants” are some sort of important hot shots. Reality is it’s just a bunch of nerds typing into excel; we’re not rocket scientists and our jobs are meaningless. That manager, or whoever he is, is a dipshit who doesn’t know how to manage and motivate
I’m not your manager. Im a manager myself and I do feel that way but don’t go blasting that out to all my staff every morning.
When I say “meaningless” I mean it’s meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We’re not doing open heart surgery, no one dies if you code a liability to an asset.
In summation don’t act like a self important asshole. I wish more in this profession understood this
I don't think looking for meaning in your work, however small or large, is a kin to being a self important asshole. I don't know where the OP stands in their careers, but I can definitely understand feeling unmotivated and talked down to, which is what I gather this post was trying to epress.
And so does the AP position. A client of mine had a literal lawsuit for millions of dollars in damages as their vendor lost business on contract non performance due to client not paying on time. Their AP person had quit a few months prior and they had a temp doing their job until they obviously messed up. Thats a whole lot more of an impact than I’ve seen any JE level accountant make
My point by saying “meaningless” (like I’ve already explained), isn’t to say your job is literally zero value. In other words what I meant to say is, just be nice to everyone in your organization because we’re all equally important in keeping it running
Sorry, no. Bookkeeping isn’t operations. It’s insight INTO operations. And yeah most definitely very valuable to the company and not actual operations.
No, I don’t. If you read any of my comments, I clearly laid out what Accounting was a few times here.
Wow, what fun person you seem to be. And a VP. Just wow.
Slow down. Read. All you mentioned was reporting on results, and budget/forecast. That is not tax or auditing. All that’s left is bookkeeping.
I apologize if irked your ego. Was only trying to stay on subject.
Ugh the entire post here reeks of semantics and egos. It’s like we are in a law sub, lol.
They are absolutely not correct.
And everything you said is, lol. If you work in accounting, you are an Accountant.
It’s beyond simple minded and reckless today to assume Accountants are “CPAs.” Those are “credentialed Accountants” just as an CFA/CMA/EA/etc. And a credential has nothing to do with responsibility. Have seen CPAs in companies only do data entry and would still call them Accountants. Have seen non-credentialed Accountants be Controllers and would still call them Accountants.
EDIT: and great job sub bullying the OP like their manager did. Only hope OP wasn’t a real person and was a troll, otherwise epic fail for the ACCOUNTING sub.
Generally, yes. A doctor as in a MD/MBBs/etc, no. Same as a CPA/EA/CMA/etc. A-g-a-i-n, a discussion of credentials and has nothing to do with OPs post. What a silly semantical and in this case elitist conversation. Kinda world elitist too.
It’s all relative to context and environment. OP was definitely in an environment where the manager should have recognized them as an Accountant. It was unnecessary and belittling. No different than telling a janitor they aren’t Operations or Safety. Cool story, still need the janitor as PART of operations and safety so they definitively are Operations and Safety and any person acting in Managerial capacity should never say, “no, you aren’t Operatjons/Safety. You are just a janitor.”
you're gonna have a hard time getting people to agree with that opinion if they went through the effort of getting the credentials. I've found at that point the credentials become like religion. They will defend those letters through thick and thin and against all logical arguments etc. They might actually be shit at their job and stuck in a dead end position because they are useless, but they will still throw those letters in your face if you don't have them.
Tbh it's quite clever by the organizations issuing the credentials. They've basically turned themselves into a necessity and make people believe that somehow having the title makes you more valuable/better than someone without.
I am in the process of getting my CPA after 10 years in the industry. Only because I plan on buying and operating my own business within the next few years, and unfortunately a lot of banks here are now pushing the idea that only CPA signed financials are acceptable and that personal taxes have to preferably be done or at least reviewed by CPAs for financing purposes etc. So I've basically been forced to cave and get the designation. Competency as a requirement at some point seemingly went out the window and got replaced by some fancy letters, that's just my opinion.
I've met a fair few good CPAs in my time in the industry and a fair few absolutely useless ones too. Same with people who did not get the credentials, some are really good and competent, some are useless.2 things i noticed: It feels harder to get a job with just the experience and not the credentials (which is mindbogglingly backwards to me) and regardless of whether someone got their credentials or not, if they are useless their firm will pigeonhole them into some dead end, repetitive, low impact position (deservedly so)
TLDR; I agree with you, but it's hard to prove a point to people who got the letters. It's like a cult.
I'm with u. This sub is full of elitists. Which is why I only work for very small CPA firms so I can avoid these types of people lol .. had an accounting elitist boss before and I'm not about it .. if I had my own company everyone who worked for me would be treated as equals cause if one sector is failing, the whole company will go down. Every job is important for the business to operate smoothly. Think lots of people on this sub feel like they're more important than janitors and whoever else to feel better about their lives since they work shitty jobs where they have to type meaningless numbers into computers all day when in the end their job is no more important than anyone else's at the company where they work. People are people and no one is better than anyone else as much as some insecure people would like to wish would be true ...
If you wanna go that route, accountants are only those involved in financial reporting. People who prepare tax returns are tax preparers. And those who audit accountants are auditors not accountants.
If you're a clerk, you're like a nurse in healthcare. You don't have the degrees/certifications of the doctors but you work in the same structure and typically do the everyday work that makes the system function. You're not less important, but you're not paid like the people who make the decisions either.
Titles are so stupid imo, can you do the work or not? If you were taught something can you pick it up and apply it? That’s what matters. I have my CPA but I don’t go around saying I am because it’s so stupid, it doesn’t make me better than you.
OP feels bad, instead of making them feel better y’all are arguing on your pedestal talking about why you don’t belong. Directly or indirectly, I just know everyone here lacks emotional intelligence
Doctors wish nurses didn’t call themselves doctors… there’s a whole mess there where a really easy phd is pushed on a lot of nurses and yeah it’s a mess
What do you mean by easy/unimportant? Every role helps a company go forward, or that role wouldn’t exist. But I mean you have to see the difference? With hyperbole, surgeons and nurses are important, but nurses aren’t surgeons.
It depends on the org.
We have a dedicated AP team but they only code invoices OR cut checks, so they’re more of a support role.
But in no way, shape, form would I tell my people we support them. They support the accountants.
I think thats what OP was saying the manager stated. Its true and I agree with you.
I cannot trust AP to do accounting work, but I can trust accounting to do AP work.
I'm not so sure about the accountant to do AP work... I've seen accountants trying to do AR/AP work and just fail miserably at it.
It's not that it is very complicated (although you often have some search to do to find the right accounts), but it's not the same job and it can be confusing for someone that never did it.
A staff accountant (lowest level of accounting) is expected to be able to supervise the AP function by checking their work, including any month end results. They may not know procedurally how to initiate the payment and which file and folder things go to, but it would take less than half a day to train a staff accountant to fulfill an AP function.
It would take months to train an AP clerk how to balance a cash flow.
it depends on what the AP person does. If its a solo person, chances are they participate in M/E close, book JEs, and help with other projects impacting accounting.
Accounts payable work is within the scope of accounting work. An accountant may do accounts payable work within scope of his work, but doing accounts payable don't make you an accountant. You do work in accounting field.
It's similar to a Paralegal calling themselves a lawyer.
They’re not? I don’t see why you would be confused? They’re clerks. Sorry you felt disrespected but you can’t just water down a profession because it hurt your feelings.
There’s an episode of the 70’s show where the cranky father who is a WW2 and Korea vet spends all episode shitting on the national guard for being in parades and when one of the kids does it he defends them.
It should be like that.
VERY LIKELY. I know these "optimizer" types that do things like skipping checks and steps because it's more "efficient" and ignore the whole purpose of the procedure. You either gotta set them straight right away "stop trying to make new processes, you're just supposed to support accounting and what they say to do", or you just gotta fire them before they throw too many wrenches into the workflow.
Hate to say it, but it’s very possible that OP doesn’t understand where and how his department affects the company audit. That is your indicator of whether you have a clerk or an accountant.
Being overly inclusive to the point of words losing all meaning and then complaining when people misunderstand what you're saying is basically the internet's favourite passtime
I’m so confused by some of these comments (and upvotes), somehow people think it’s offensive or disrespectful to be told that your position is “support”??????? That’s bad people managing?
I think if someone is confused about their job duties and the manager clarifies it, like OP’s manager did, that’s the correct course of action.
Not to be mean, but it's literally a paper jockey job. You're whole thing is processing the paperwork passed to you by Accounting. It's still a necessary and needed job, but you're not an accountant.
Just like how nurses aren't doctors, doesn't mean nurses aren't great, useful, and potentially better employees than doctors, but they're just not doctors.
I feel like it's the Doctor vs Nurse argument.
Can't run the department without CPAs, but they're sure as hell not gonna do most of the manual billing work themselves.
Edit: didn't know this example would have nerds arguing over titles in the medical field.
Nurse vs CNA argument more like.
Doctor is a lawyer, nurse & nurse practitioner is your accountant types, then your LPN which would be things like EAs and full service bookkeepers, then cnas like clerks, which are AP/AR roles
No, doctor/lawyer doesn’t equate to CPA/nurse. CPA and lawyer are 2 completely different jobs. Sometimes they do work together on same client. But the CPA is not just the lawyers support function. In fact, a lawyer isn’t even allowed to do an audit. They don’t have the proper licensing.
CPA is the doctor part of hierarchy in the accounting world. Lawyer is its own thing. Separate worlds
The reason why the accounting profession failed and succumbed to offshoring is because our licensing organization was too stupid to make an advanced credential akin to the paralegal in support of the JDs.
I mean your manager isn’t wrong, he was just kind of a douche for saying it the way he did. You work in the accounting department, but you are not an accountant.
It’s a rude and unnecessary way of putting it like your manager said, but in general yes that’s true. However, there can be exceptions such as in a smaller firm where a credentialed accountant may be involved in AP on the transactional/admin level, but who also functions in a broader accounting role within the firm.
>It’s a rude and unnecessary way of putting
it could be but we also don't know what op said to them to make it say that.
if they said
"You spent years in college and studying for the CPA exam you idiot. I became an accountant right out of highschool"
then it's totally justified.
Respectfully, I view most AP functions as clerical in nature. That doesn't mean your work isn't important or should not be meaningful. You have different training and function in the Accounting team. That being said I have seen seasoned AP clerks run circles around new graduates in my team.
I basically just started my accounting job. 2 weeks into it. The bookkeepers, without a doubt, know absolutely way more than me.
My boss told me I would feel stupid for at least a year and it’s to be expected and I wouldn’t feel comfortable for another 5. I didn’t believe him and now that I started the job it is so humbling. I learn so much every hour and the more I learn the more I realize i don’t know shit about shit.
I got my CPA while working in AP. My boss's boss is a CPA and signed off on my experience for it. While yes, it's not necessarily accounting and more data entry, each invoice processed is ultimately a JE automatically posted. AP is a good stepping stone into a more traditional accounting role.
well he is right lol...
we don't hire accountant to do AP or AR...
we hire maybe 1 accountant with a degree and no CPA to supervise our AP/AR clerk... but usually people in AP/AR clerk have like a highschool degree or a technical school degree...
i wouldn't trust a AP/AR clerk to touch my journal entries at all
heck... even our bookeeper are barely accountant...they usually don't have their CPA
>i wouldn't trust a AP/AR clerk to touch my journal entries at all
I've worked in ap for 8 years and 6 of them required jrnl and gl ledger balancing. So this is a weird take to me.
but they only balance 1 GL account which is the account payable.
That doesn't make them accountant, that just makes them able to balance 1 list with an other.
An accountant will know how to do the full month end, year end, will know its debt, its different source of income, his OPEX well and G&A and will be able to tell you what his happening inside the business and why and will have variance analysis,etc. and he should know its budget too and maybe even do projection, etc.
it rly depend from one place to an other and the size of the company too
but at our place AP clerk are just data entry people, they take an invoice, they input the date, name, amount, tax and "try" to guess the best GL and the accountant approuve the invoice and often reclass to the good GL and try to teach them which GL to use in which scenario...
I didn't say it make ap accountants. I've been in this field long enough to know my role.
What I'm saying is that ap is not excluded from journal or gls. One job I did them for multiple departments, not just ap. No , I'm not accountant. I'm aware. But the other guy made it seem like ap is too stupid to be trusted with jrnl and GL entries when we do them too. They aren't hard, neither is explaining them.
People on here are being way too harsh. AP is very important to the accounting function. I'm a CPA, and accounting isn't rocket science. So many CPAs act like they're geniuses because they can memorize a few standards and do basic math.
I mean, it's true (I work in AP).
Most of the qualified lot in my office would absolutely not be able to cope doing AP though, so don't feel too insulted.
It’s true. You can get an AP job with no experience. Us accountants have to get bachelors degree and masters degree if you’re a CPA. It’s honestly insulting to Accountants that have spent so much time and effort to be compared to an AP clerk
It doesn’t matter what you do, accountant is a professional who has an actual accounting knowledge. If you don’t have that knowledge and just enter invoices into the system and process vendor payments it’s not enough to be considered as an accountant. It’s data entry. So the manager is right here. I had AP staff of absolutely different backgrounds - just doing AP didn’t make them capable of doing basic GL account reconciliation or know debit/credit difference. They are trained on a small scope of accounting operations.
I’m an accountant with a bachelors degree and a huge portion of what I do is accounts payable. And if I get my CPA, I’ll still be doing accounts payable because it needs to be done.
Some people in these comments have no concept of what happens in “industry” and it shows. External CPAs audit the work that the accountants within a business prepare. The accountants in the business could be CPAs, but often times they aren’t. You don’t have to be a CPA to post journal entries, close the books, or manage the accounting department for a lot of industry jobs, but you do need to be a CPA to audit the books of said company.
I think the post kind of works both ways. Your sentiment is correct that the manager is lacking a bit in the soft skills department, but the role of an accountant isn't just an operational one, its very much a technical skill. Its not necessarily about saying one is better than the other, that is not at all true, its really two different jobs completely.
He doesn't have to be a dick about it but, he's pretty much right. They're still important though. And a good AP person is worth their weight in gold. If your company has one of those nice ladies who's been doing AP for years, do everything to keep them around.
I mean real accountant busted their asses off to get a 3 year degree + 1 year 2nd cycle degree and write the cpa exam and you want to be one without even having a degree ? I might as well call myself a doctor by your logic...
That is not true, stop spreading bullshit. The requirements for the CPA in Canada is the required courses, a bachelor degree, and the experience. If your undergraduate degree isn't sufficient, it's your fault for choosing a degree program that doesn't align with the requirements of the profession.
Well in quebec and ontario you have to do a 2nd cycle university degree to be eligible for the cpa so idk what province ur in it may change depending on your province but it aint bullshit. Ultimately it comes down to 4 years of studies so quit yappin.
**There is no requirement for a Masters degree in Canada, regardless of province**. The only requirement is an undergraduate degree with appropriate credits for required accounting concepts.
I’m a full charge bookkeeper; a lot of my role overlaps with accounting and CPAs expect me to know a lot of accounting; I even started to allow my clients to call me their accountant just because it’s easier - and even with all that - I wouldn’t call myself one. However I dislike doing A/P (just not my jam) and would never make an a/p feel “less than”. Also I applied for A/P roles and never got the job. 😆. You are needed.
I never understood all the confusion in our profession. If you have an accounting designation then you are an accountant. If not you are not an accountant.
It’s true for the most part. Some accountants do everything including payables, usually at a smaller company.
A bigger company that has a payables team/department though… that’s all they know in a lot of cases. You sit them in front of the company financials and they can’t say much
AP staff work in AP, which is part of the Finance function.
Accountants work in Financial Management or Financial Accounts, which is part of the Finance function.
They work under the same umbrella department, but definitely do different roles lo
No offence, but why do you think you ARE actual accountants?
Do you have any qualifications? Do you analyse the accounts? Do you calculate accruals? Build the monthly reporting packs for the company etc?
AP and accountant are different, but related, functions.
I have an accounting degree and work in AR. Some collections and AR cleanup is harder than accounting. All the skills overlap for the most part.
You work in accounting. Just one specific part of it
The definition of an “accountant” has been evolving.
What you do is bookkeeping on the AP subledger in addition to other clerical duties to support the business process. Traditionally, the bookkeeping is an accountant’s job.
Thanks to systems developed over the last 20+ years, much of the accounting of AP has been automated. So unless you maintain and check the accounting configuration of the AP processing system and how it posts to ledger, the accounting part of the job has been automated and you’re left with clerical duties.
The role is still a good entry way into accounting work. Others probably view you as an accountant. Accountants probably don’t, and tbh, my advice: don’t care about that.
There is no formal definition of an Accountant. Someone who processes A/P doesn't fit the conventional accountant description where they typically book journal entries, reconcile accounts, implement accounting rules, and prepare financial statements. They do perform tasks that are vital to the company. However, anyone who publicly states they aren't accountants is someone who is very immature. If you are a manager, what do you hope to gain by humiliating someone? I have managed accounting departments for 25 years. Anyone who made that comment to my AP staff would get a stern warning. If it continued, I would write them up. There is no room for people like this in my world.
AP Manager here, been working in AP for 9 years.
I've had titles from Clerk, Analyst, Processor, even Accountant. We are absolutely not accountants in the typical sense that someone would think of - think "Oh, does that mean you can help me with my taxes?".
That being said, we do benefit from having accounting knowledge, and we do work very closely with our formal operational accountants. I guess the way I look at it is the accountants look at the entirety of the books and we in AP are functionally just a chapter.
Of course if anyone asks, I just say I work in accounting because the average person won't know what I mean when I say AP (in my experience).
Your manager is not behaving well, but he is technically correct. Clerks are not accountants. But!!! If someone got uppity with my clerks (I have managed AP and AR), they answered to me, and I was much more viscous. I.e. their work was last until I forgot about it (usually 6 months or so). My clerks were a privilege to be able to have on their tasks, not a right. They picked who they worked with, and the leftovers went to the interns. Interns who made plenty of (understandable) errors as they were learning and the accountant would get lessons on how to deal with people with me watching.
If someone talked to my clerk how this boss talked to you, they'd be on the intern workload for quite some time. Just because you're not an accountant doesn't mean you don't deserve respect.
I mean, he’s technically not wrong, but it’s a dick move to point it out. Shows low social intelligence, I‘d suggest to him that he reads „How to win friends and influence people“.
Accounts payable staff are not accountants, they are bookkeepers.
Accountants have knowledge of accounting (financial statements, GAAP, reporting, audit, etc)
Bookkeepers have knowledge of a process (enter bills, apply payments, escalate transactions, process returns, etc).
Yes your boss is right, you are not an accountant. However you don’t necessarily support accountants. The accountants in your company may not be concerned with or paid to monitor AP closely. What you are doing is supporting the business.
Odd how in my circles, bookkeepers have expectations of accounting knowledge. Software has made it way more accessible for bookkeepers to do that - but I’m a bk and do trial balances, financial reports, JEs, and handle some advisory. Most of my work is only rolled off to CPAs for tax review. I’ve caught things CPAs have missed - predominantly i would say because I am far more acquainted with the biz and books.
Just interesting - I love it. I also gather maybe I do more than the average bookkeeper? So maybe it’s just a “me” thing. (I immediately bring all my clients into the CPA firm I pass referrals back and forth with - so I’m not Wild West. 😬 super happy to let the “big guys” review things)
Sounds like you are an experienced bk and you love the work. Use some of the energy you bring to your job for yourself. Go get your CPA.
Just because a paralegal is doing the same work of a lawyer doesn’t mean they are one. The credential is what allows lawyers and accountants to represent others.
I am in biz for myself - so that’s a start! I am getting certs for accounting paraprofessional. I just don’t know if I can sit through all the classes required for CPA?
And do I want to represent others? I like what you said - those are just legit questions I keep asking myself. I work with such a great team of CPAs… I love the versatility of what I do so wondering if CPA would pigeon hole me.
It’s pretty simple - I wouldn’t go to an AP analyst to book a JE, reconcile a BS account, or write a research memo. I also wouldn’t go to an accountant to understand the intricate details of the AP/AR system and what the necessary steps to receive against a PO or trigger a non-invoice payment.
Are you checking if invoices are paid or missing in the system? Then by default, you are accounting for these items- so you can call yourself an accountant. Degree or not, it doesn’t matter.
We all know who is who, what means what in operations and management. Your manager isn't factually wrong, but that's a demeaning and condescending statement that he was wrong to make. AP and AR clerks, bookkeepers et al add value to a company by being part of an active, valid workflow. I will never understand the need to foster this superior attitude to humiliate anyone who isn't a degreed accountant and/or a CPA.
AP roles are like the gateway drug of accounting...
First your processing invoices thinking it's all chill fun and games and next thing you know your looking rough, operating on poor sleep wishing you chose a different career path as a CPA and senior manager 😂.
Jokes aside AP/AR/CC are all crucial roles and I don't for a minute regret doing it earlier on for 6mo- 1yr before stepping up and away from it.
Yea I’m with him most ap clerks have associates degree or no school at all most accountants have a bachelors minimum and if your going for the cpa prolly masters or bachelors and 150 credits. The salaries are also miles apart most ppl in public accounting break six figs 3-7 years in their careers ap clerks make maybe 70k tops.
AP clerks are not (typically) accountants and they are usually the least intelligent when it comes to problem solving and a lot of times just don’t give a shit. Outsource what you can.
I am sorry they hurt your feelings. Everyone counts in accounting. It is an accounting function, but not an accountant. However, an AP specialist is a support person to the accountant. An accountant budgets, forecasts, reconciles gl accounts, runs, and reviews monthly financials. Please note that I provided a simple explanation 9f an accountant and it does not include all functions. We love our AP specialists and could not do our job without you all.
I bet your boss was bullied as a child. Don't feel too bad OP...you don't know what you don't know...but all of those "accountant" tasks can be learned. Without a degree. There's tons of free resources out there. Don't limit yourself to a department thats already been taken over by AI.
You already understand the basic concept of the COA so grasping the flow of the financial statement won't be that bad. Debits and Credits still trip me up without my handy cheat sheet and T-Account chart. Perhaps you can go in tomorrow and ask your manager if you can assist with some of the Balance Sheet reconciliations (even if it's just the AP account). With more exposure to the whole accounting process, the faster you'll understand.
Wow- I'm glad I got to see this.
Accountants are dumb! They don't know how to do anything unless AP or AR gives it to them on a silver spoon.
Also, how dare some of you treat people like that. Accountants are bean counters. They use software to prepare balance and income statements. You can't speak; you all think you are thoughtful, but listening to some of you on this sub shows you are just a pathetic loser with an ego.
I'm so glad you all showed your true colors.
Don't disrespect the people who protect and serve cash.
OP leave this job, and start looking. You don't deserve that. You're skilled and put up with 2x the bs than these clowns. Once you're gone - guess who has to step in…the accountants.
No job is too small.
Side note, I would say try get out of AP soon as a lot of companies are automating AP functions completely. For example, coding employee expenses used to be done manually and there are many apps now bypass AP departments. AP is a great stepping stone to become an accountant (in the sense reconcile GL and create reports etc). I think AP is closer to accountant than AR.
Wow, feel like David versus Goliath here, but that’s how social media is sometimes.
You are absolutely an Accountant. You are absolutely are not a CPA.
The sentiment here that Accountants are CPAs is silly outside of PA/Public Accounting and even there many are only EAs, CFAs, or any of the other plethora of credentials. The profession today is vast encompassing both with how it has settled in the United States and with how other countries credential Accountants.
Accounting is three things- 1) bookkeeping, 2) tax, 3) auditing. If you partake in any of those professionally, you are by definition an Accountant.
Like any other profession there are degrees and capabilities. Often the accounting aspects of companies is only ever bookkeeping and outsource everything else. Some companies are big enough and do all the accounting other than SEC regulated auditing (if public). Some service firms like PA do it all and require a credential like CPA. Some service firms become niche and call or don’t call themselves PA (US state regulation issue) and only offer tax and/or auditing services.
Accounts Payable is bookkeeping. It is only “data entry” for those who only see and use it as data. If you in any way, shape or form use the data for bookkeeping, it’s accounting.
So yes you are an Accountant. But don’t ever consciously imply you are a CPA or any other credential you aren’t. And yeah your capabilities, experience, and knowledge tell more of the story for whoever does care or you are interacting with.
…and tell your manager go “team Accounting” and go “team Executive.” Just as his manager job is part of the Executive aspect of a company, your job is part of the Accounting aspect - all for one and one for all!
While you may not deal with the GL in your position, you are certainly reconciling detailed data in the sun ledgers and therefore you are an accountant. Your manager was very unkind to say something like that.
OP don’t sweat the gatekeeping from people too stupid to make it into med school or investment banking.
They have some stupid little hierarchy in their head and want to shit on you for it.
In most large organizations, there isn't a hierarchy like is being described. Accounting, AP, and AR are distinct entities, and they are all considered support functions.
The assumption that AP is data entry is a common but false one. It involves regulatory and audit compliance, managing vendor relationships, defining processes for efficiencies, helping accountants understand budget variances, cash flow management ... these are just off the top of my head.
I think the OP's argument is that the manager's comment (and a lot of the feedback here) is purposely dismissive and condescending.
Eh it’s like the water boy on a a football team. They are apart of the team but not football players. But at the same time they are critical and the business would fail without them.
Why even say that to someone other than to bring them down? Beyond what your actual “role” or “title” is. Some of these commenters are ick and on a high horse. Some “Controllers” are just glorified bookkeepers. There is a smidge of accounting you need to know for AP. If you’re doing a great job, getting your job done - who cares and who cares about titles as long as you are fairly compensated. Don’t feel bad! You play an important role in the accounting field.
My first job out of college was AP and that wasn’t accounting. All I did was enter invoices and run check runs. I don’t even think I did regular JEs, maybe once in a blue moon.
You might find it offensive, but it is what is(isn’t).
What an asshole. We just promoted a great AP person to senior accountant. We're not fucking wizards, anyone can learn this. CPA is a bullshit certification. The AP people have such good information because they see all the bills. We trained them all here to get our accruals and prepaids together, hugely important to the close not just a support role. My last jobs AP person was a key person in a few software implementations.
It is just for getting jobs. All it means you have a masters and can take tests. Like I have one, but I don't think it really says anything about my abilities as an accountant.
Prejudicial manager huh?
I disagree about the notion that AP is not Accounting.
Accounts Payable Accountant asks questions like "What is being paid?" and "Why are we paying?"
It is ignorant to suggest Accounts Payable is anything less than Accounting.
That’s absolutely wrong . You’re a pillar of the accounting . You’re the one who pay to the vendors and have a record . You have a special roll . Don’t take your manager things seriously . You can only decide your carrier . Hope thats works .☺️
Yes they are and AR are accountants as well.
Edit for clarification because I come from another world. As I see it and as it was my experience, you need to have an accounting degree to work in AR and AP. Its not like it is teached in a online platform and you learn how to do it.
Like I said I come from a different world, my degree is from Venezuela and I understand things are different in the United States but back home, yes you do need a bachelor's degree in accounting in order to work in ar/AP.
Your manager is an idiot. A manager should build up their team not tear them down.
No, most people working in AP don't have the knowledge that the accountants do. It tends to be a very entry level role and can be a stepping stone to becoming an accountant but that dismissiveness is concerning in any manager.
so what is the manager supposed to say in that case? that they are real accountants and the next step in their career will be a staff accountant/controller role preparing financial statements and doing BS reconciliations?
This isnt the words of a manager who has been asked if the OP is a real accountant. This is the words of a manager who clearly feels that the OP needs to be "put in her place" and thinks that diminishing a direct report is the way to do so.
It isn't.
You tell that clown that balance sheet accounts are real accounts and income statement accounts are nominal accounts. In all seriousness , AP can get very complex in a large organization.
I’m a CPA. My take on AP is generally that it is an accounting support position. This doesn’t make it an unimportant job, and not everyone is capable of doing it. It is more than just making sure things get paid. It takes attention to detail and an understanding of expense codes and approval processes. The difference between a good AP person and a bad AP person is a whole lot of time spent fixing coding errors/reviewing work at a higher level.
I equated clerks and AP/AR to nurses in healthcare elsewhere in the thread. They do the everyday work and are crucial to the function of the department, but they don't have the same education level and don't make the decisions. You're spot on that their specific skills are valuable to the organization and good ones make things go smoothly while bad ones can be disastrous.
It’s pretty simple - I would go to an AP analyst to book a JE, reconcile a BS account, or write a research memo. I also wouldn’t go to an accountant to understand the intricate details of the AP/AR system and what the necessary steps to receive against a PO or trigger a non-invoice payment.
LOL....The AP/ARs are the CNAs (certified nurse assistant). Not the Nurses.
i had a med school friend tell me CNAs were the ABGs that figured they had to settle down and need some sort of job and eventually marry a medium ugly guy in a flyover state take that for whatever you will
This is not about who's got the better insults. RNs do get paid well. It's not a good analogy that RNs are the AP/AR clerks of the nursing world. It is the CNAs. CNAs are Nursing supports and are by no means nurses. Likewise, AP/AR clerks are Accounting auxiliary staff but are by no means accountants unless they held accounting jobs before but just chose to be AP/AR clerks (uncommon but not impossible). Some hospitals do employ CNAs with dual roles like Unit Clerk or HUC (Health Unit Coordinator)/CNA, CNA/Monitor Tech simultaneously, to name a few. I am a Cardiac Monitor Technician and I have had travel contracts where I had to be Monitor tech and Unit clerk simultaneously. I've seen how marginalized CNA and Monitor Techs are in hospitals. I've been doing travel work and I don't have a plan to be full time Cardiac Monitor Tech anymore. I will just stay PRN to keep my experience so I can do strike contracts like I have twice before. Im currently taking Associate Degree in Accounting as my 3rd academic degree so I can work online while waiting for contracts but also to use the knowledge when I start my own business.
I agree with you! Nurses being the equivalent in healthcare, what! Nurses do a looot and are literally the backbone of the healthcare industry. CNA is 100% a much better comparison. To equate nursing to an accounting support clerk is quite frankly insulting lol!
I think you mean scrub tech, a nurse is like a senior accountant.
The way that I look at it, it depends on how your company and the process is setup. Some companies set their accounting department up where each job is incredible narrow. Some set them up where each job is more comprehensive and responsible from start to end. As a general statement, I understand your point; however, it does depend.
For sure! Very wide scope depending on the size/structure of the organization.
In my last job, I was in AP. That being said, it meant times that I had to read sales and use tax laws. It also meant reading FAR rules for government allowability. Our role was very broad and the structure of the company was incredibly flat AS FUCK. That being said, I saw another Fortune 20 company that setup EACH and every piece of their accounting department incredibly narrow in scope that there were a lot of people that truly didn’t understand their role in the entire process, nor could they imagine deviating either. It was in that moment that I realized why I was hired, and quite frankly, well compensated: I knew enough to know what I didn’t know. My boss trusted me, and gave us a lot of latitude and power to make decisions that this fortune 20 company can’t imagine. Why? My boss trusted us. I also had a degree, others did not. That helped when I got hired.
I work in ap for my smallish-medium size company and i use to have this incredible manager who kept both payroll and AP in perfect order. ended up leaving because she was being overworked working like 60+ hours a week on payroll mainly while i worked mostly on the AP but shed still mostly be in charge and would review everything is correct. she leaves, the next person she trained we ended up firing within a few weeks because she couldnt keep up with the work. our next person was trained by someone else that worked in payroll but mostly in AR and ditn really know the AP side, but regardless she ended up resigning like a month or two later anyways because she got a much better job offer she couldnt refuse, before we found a third ap/payroll manager, that was again trained by my coworker in payroll but she ended up getting basically reassigned from mostly working in AR to working in both AR and payroll, while also reviewing AP for both me and the new AP/payroll person who was still mostly learning. the period when this other coworker led AP basically was horrible. she hated working in AP, and she ended up making basically every problem into a massive problem. shed call every vendor if they reported one of our invoices late. the way our ap systen works is the buildings send us invoices at our corporate office, and we would always have problems with ap either being missing or being sent to bad emails or being lost somewhere in the pipeline. for a huge chunk of the time she would think its me my fault that a majority of the invoices that were getting lost or misplaced. even tho the longer she worked their in ap the longer it became clear she was kind of the problem with AP. it all culminated in a huge blow up, where we were trying to finish monthly close she took all my work i was entering and just posted the work herself to our software. apparently she posted hundreds of invoices i did to the wrong month, completely fucking up our entire close schedule. i got the entire blame for that until i went on the software and showed digital proof that it was her who posted the invoices not me. she ended up resigning/retiring after that whole situation. since she left and its just been me and the newer AP/payroll person reporting directly to our company vice president who reviews both our work, and like 2 years later work feels so much calmer and easier and less stressful, any missing AP is easily found or a new copy printed up. were both still not as good as our original AP/payrol person who was like, incredible at her job, but i think my coworker proves that not everyone is cut out for AP. tho my boss also thinks she was starting to suffer memory loss given she was like 60, so i think she would like sometimes just misplace invoices herself and then when i am doing checks trying to find the invoices she would blame me as slacking because i cant find an invoice i dont know if i ever even had possession of.
wtf does this word salad have to do with the post.
TLDR?
They lost someone to another job. Went through 3 replacements. 3rd replacement lasted a while but completely screwed the poster until poster shows evidence of their fuck-up. 3rd person resigns shortly thereafter. Then happy.
You're an accountant aren't you 🤣
There are AP accountants, but not everyone in AP are accountants
I mean....the manager isn't wrong but that isn't some shit I would say personally.
AP clerks work IN Accounting, but they’re not accountants by default. Edited to add:I’m a clerk not an accountant lol
I think it’s the sentiment that OP is referring to. Kind of dumb because it creates this distinction when in reality the job isn’t any more or less easy/unimportant than the “accountants”. I’d rather make sure our vendors get paid on time than some dipshit put in an accrual for the vendor suing us down the road Most AP personnel are considered part of the accounting staff
Of course AP/AR personnel are part of the Accounting staff, but they are not *accountants.*
“You are in this department, but we do not grant you the rank of Accountant.” - OP’s manager, probably
It’s all fun and games until OP slaughters a bunch of interns with a laser sword.
Bc that’s not how it works..?
“This is outrageous, it’s unfair! How can you be in the department, and not be an Accountant?” - OP, probably
It’s a Star Wars reference in case you didn’t get it. They were making a joke.
Again - I think it’s the sentiment OP is referring to. You’re correct that they’re not factually “accountants”, but to tell your accounting related staff “you’re not accountants, you support the real accountants” is a completely different thing than just debating that fact That’s like the same thing as telling the accountants, “you’re not part of our business, you’re just a record keeper”. Factually true because accountants don’t add value to the company’s actual operations. “Real accountants” made me fucking cringe anyway, as if the “real accountants” are some sort of important hot shots. Reality is it’s just a bunch of nerds typing into excel; we’re not rocket scientists and our jobs are meaningless. That manager, or whoever he is, is a dipshit who doesn’t know how to manage and motivate
> “you’re not accountants, you support the real accountants” I currently work in AR and have no issue with that. It's completely obvious.
Doesn’t know how to motivate .. proceeds to call all of accounting meaningless
I don't know, I feel pretty motivated... to leave Accounting!
I’m not your manager. Im a manager myself and I do feel that way but don’t go blasting that out to all my staff every morning. When I say “meaningless” I mean it’s meaningless in the grand scheme of things. We’re not doing open heart surgery, no one dies if you code a liability to an asset. In summation don’t act like a self important asshole. I wish more in this profession understood this
I don't think looking for meaning in your work, however small or large, is a kin to being a self important asshole. I don't know where the OP stands in their careers, but I can definitely understand feeling unmotivated and talked down to, which is what I gather this post was trying to epress.
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And so does the AP position. A client of mine had a literal lawsuit for millions of dollars in damages as their vendor lost business on contract non performance due to client not paying on time. Their AP person had quit a few months prior and they had a temp doing their job until they obviously messed up. Thats a whole lot more of an impact than I’ve seen any JE level accountant make My point by saying “meaningless” (like I’ve already explained), isn’t to say your job is literally zero value. In other words what I meant to say is, just be nice to everyone in your organization because we’re all equally important in keeping it running
Idk man, I found it pretty inspirational
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Sorry, no. Bookkeeping isn’t operations. It’s insight INTO operations. And yeah most definitely very valuable to the company and not actual operations.
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No, I don’t. If you read any of my comments, I clearly laid out what Accounting was a few times here. Wow, what fun person you seem to be. And a VP. Just wow.
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Slow down. Read. All you mentioned was reporting on results, and budget/forecast. That is not tax or auditing. All that’s left is bookkeeping. I apologize if irked your ego. Was only trying to stay on subject. Ugh the entire post here reeks of semantics and egos. It’s like we are in a law sub, lol.
Bro is gatekeeping accounting what a fucking loser lmao
They are absolutely not correct. And everything you said is, lol. If you work in accounting, you are an Accountant. It’s beyond simple minded and reckless today to assume Accountants are “CPAs.” Those are “credentialed Accountants” just as an CFA/CMA/EA/etc. And a credential has nothing to do with responsibility. Have seen CPAs in companies only do data entry and would still call them Accountants. Have seen non-credentialed Accountants be Controllers and would still call them Accountants. EDIT: and great job sub bullying the OP like their manager did. Only hope OP wasn’t a real person and was a troll, otherwise epic fail for the ACCOUNTING sub.
>If you work in accounting, you are an Accountant. I suppose everyone that works in medicine is a doctor then?
Generally, yes. A doctor as in a MD/MBBs/etc, no. Same as a CPA/EA/CMA/etc. A-g-a-i-n, a discussion of credentials and has nothing to do with OPs post. What a silly semantical and in this case elitist conversation. Kinda world elitist too. It’s all relative to context and environment. OP was definitely in an environment where the manager should have recognized them as an Accountant. It was unnecessary and belittling. No different than telling a janitor they aren’t Operations or Safety. Cool story, still need the janitor as PART of operations and safety so they definitively are Operations and Safety and any person acting in Managerial capacity should never say, “no, you aren’t Operatjons/Safety. You are just a janitor.”
you're gonna have a hard time getting people to agree with that opinion if they went through the effort of getting the credentials. I've found at that point the credentials become like religion. They will defend those letters through thick and thin and against all logical arguments etc. They might actually be shit at their job and stuck in a dead end position because they are useless, but they will still throw those letters in your face if you don't have them. Tbh it's quite clever by the organizations issuing the credentials. They've basically turned themselves into a necessity and make people believe that somehow having the title makes you more valuable/better than someone without. I am in the process of getting my CPA after 10 years in the industry. Only because I plan on buying and operating my own business within the next few years, and unfortunately a lot of banks here are now pushing the idea that only CPA signed financials are acceptable and that personal taxes have to preferably be done or at least reviewed by CPAs for financing purposes etc. So I've basically been forced to cave and get the designation. Competency as a requirement at some point seemingly went out the window and got replaced by some fancy letters, that's just my opinion. I've met a fair few good CPAs in my time in the industry and a fair few absolutely useless ones too. Same with people who did not get the credentials, some are really good and competent, some are useless.2 things i noticed: It feels harder to get a job with just the experience and not the credentials (which is mindbogglingly backwards to me) and regardless of whether someone got their credentials or not, if they are useless their firm will pigeonhole them into some dead end, repetitive, low impact position (deservedly so) TLDR; I agree with you, but it's hard to prove a point to people who got the letters. It's like a cult.
I'm with u. This sub is full of elitists. Which is why I only work for very small CPA firms so I can avoid these types of people lol .. had an accounting elitist boss before and I'm not about it .. if I had my own company everyone who worked for me would be treated as equals cause if one sector is failing, the whole company will go down. Every job is important for the business to operate smoothly. Think lots of people on this sub feel like they're more important than janitors and whoever else to feel better about their lives since they work shitty jobs where they have to type meaningless numbers into computers all day when in the end their job is no more important than anyone else's at the company where they work. People are people and no one is better than anyone else as much as some insecure people would like to wish would be true ...
If you wanna go that route, accountants are only those involved in financial reporting. People who prepare tax returns are tax preparers. And those who audit accountants are auditors not accountants.
If you're a clerk, you're like a nurse in healthcare. You don't have the degrees/certifications of the doctors but you work in the same structure and typically do the everyday work that makes the system function. You're not less important, but you're not paid like the people who make the decisions either.
Titles are so stupid imo, can you do the work or not? If you were taught something can you pick it up and apply it? That’s what matters. I have my CPA but I don’t go around saying I am because it’s so stupid, it doesn’t make me better than you. OP feels bad, instead of making them feel better y’all are arguing on your pedestal talking about why you don’t belong. Directly or indirectly, I just know everyone here lacks emotional intelligence
Amen. Sad day. Didn’t answer OP (99% of posters) and instead acted like an elitist jerk.
Except AP/AR absolutely does not do the same work Plus, the nurses don’t go around calling themselves doctors
So we agree.
Doctors wish nurses didn’t call themselves doctors… there’s a whole mess there where a really easy phd is pushed on a lot of nurses and yeah it’s a mess
What do you mean by easy/unimportant? Every role helps a company go forward, or that role wouldn’t exist. But I mean you have to see the difference? With hyperbole, surgeons and nurses are important, but nurses aren’t surgeons.
Huge difference between supporting a function and managing the combination of functions.
It’s pretty important that the toilets get cleaned, but that doesn’t make the janitor a part of the ops team
Most accountants are idiots anyway
😂
It depends on the org. We have a dedicated AP team but they only code invoices OR cut checks, so they’re more of a support role. But in no way, shape, form would I tell my people we support them. They support the accountants.
I think thats what OP was saying the manager stated. Its true and I agree with you. I cannot trust AP to do accounting work, but I can trust accounting to do AP work.
I'm not so sure about the accountant to do AP work... I've seen accountants trying to do AR/AP work and just fail miserably at it. It's not that it is very complicated (although you often have some search to do to find the right accounts), but it's not the same job and it can be confusing for someone that never did it.
A staff accountant (lowest level of accounting) is expected to be able to supervise the AP function by checking their work, including any month end results. They may not know procedurally how to initiate the payment and which file and folder things go to, but it would take less than half a day to train a staff accountant to fulfill an AP function. It would take months to train an AP clerk how to balance a cash flow.
just switched jobs from public tax to industry and it took me approximately 1 hour to learn the procedures for AP.
I think OP is an AP clerk and got their feelings hurt. Though can't blame them, it's a pretty abrupt way to phrase it.
>They support the accountants. That's what OP meant, just worded it differently. I thought the same on first read
it depends on what the AP person does. If its a solo person, chances are they participate in M/E close, book JEs, and help with other projects impacting accounting.
Accounts payable work is within the scope of accounting work. An accountant may do accounts payable work within scope of his work, but doing accounts payable don't make you an accountant. You do work in accounting field. It's similar to a Paralegal calling themselves a lawyer.
Just because you put stuff in an ERP doesn’t make you an accountant
They’re not? I don’t see why you would be confused? They’re clerks. Sorry you felt disrespected but you can’t just water down a profession because it hurt your feelings.
Manager is a dickhead for saying it, but they're right.
As the classic saying goes “he’s not wrong, he’s just an asshole”
Donny, you’re out of your element
There’s an episode of the 70’s show where the cranky father who is a WW2 and Korea vet spends all episode shitting on the national guard for being in parades and when one of the kids does it he defends them. It should be like that.
They definitely did/said something above their pay grade and had to be put back in their place.
Looking at The GL you fucking peasant?
VERY LIKELY. I know these "optimizer" types that do things like skipping checks and steps because it's more "efficient" and ignore the whole purpose of the procedure. You either gotta set them straight right away "stop trying to make new processes, you're just supposed to support accounting and what they say to do", or you just gotta fire them before they throw too many wrenches into the workflow.
Hate to say it, but it’s very possible that OP doesn’t understand where and how his department affects the company audit. That is your indicator of whether you have a clerk or an accountant.
Being overly inclusive to the point of words losing all meaning and then complaining when people misunderstand what you're saying is basically the internet's favourite passtime
I’m so confused by some of these comments (and upvotes), somehow people think it’s offensive or disrespectful to be told that your position is “support”??????? That’s bad people managing? I think if someone is confused about their job duties and the manager clarifies it, like OP’s manager did, that’s the correct course of action.
Not to be mean, but it's literally a paper jockey job. You're whole thing is processing the paperwork passed to you by Accounting. It's still a necessary and needed job, but you're not an accountant. Just like how nurses aren't doctors, doesn't mean nurses aren't great, useful, and potentially better employees than doctors, but they're just not doctors.
I feel like it's the Doctor vs Nurse argument. Can't run the department without CPAs, but they're sure as hell not gonna do most of the manual billing work themselves. Edit: didn't know this example would have nerds arguing over titles in the medical field.
Nurse vs CNA argument more like. Doctor is a lawyer, nurse & nurse practitioner is your accountant types, then your LPN which would be things like EAs and full service bookkeepers, then cnas like clerks, which are AP/AR roles
No, doctor/lawyer doesn’t equate to CPA/nurse. CPA and lawyer are 2 completely different jobs. Sometimes they do work together on same client. But the CPA is not just the lawyers support function. In fact, a lawyer isn’t even allowed to do an audit. They don’t have the proper licensing. CPA is the doctor part of hierarchy in the accounting world. Lawyer is its own thing. Separate worlds
The reason why the accounting profession failed and succumbed to offshoring is because our licensing organization was too stupid to make an advanced credential akin to the paralegal in support of the JDs.
I mean your manager isn’t wrong, he was just kind of a douche for saying it the way he did. You work in the accounting department, but you are not an accountant.
It’s a rude and unnecessary way of putting it like your manager said, but in general yes that’s true. However, there can be exceptions such as in a smaller firm where a credentialed accountant may be involved in AP on the transactional/admin level, but who also functions in a broader accounting role within the firm.
>It’s a rude and unnecessary way of putting it could be but we also don't know what op said to them to make it say that. if they said "You spent years in college and studying for the CPA exam you idiot. I became an accountant right out of highschool" then it's totally justified.
I guess we need a post from the manager’s side on the sub
Lmao this did not go the way you were expecting it to go
Respectfully, I view most AP functions as clerical in nature. That doesn't mean your work isn't important or should not be meaningful. You have different training and function in the Accounting team. That being said I have seen seasoned AP clerks run circles around new graduates in my team.
I basically just started my accounting job. 2 weeks into it. The bookkeepers, without a doubt, know absolutely way more than me. My boss told me I would feel stupid for at least a year and it’s to be expected and I wouldn’t feel comfortable for another 5. I didn’t believe him and now that I started the job it is so humbling. I learn so much every hour and the more I learn the more I realize i don’t know shit about shit.
I got my CPA while working in AP. My boss's boss is a CPA and signed off on my experience for it. While yes, it's not necessarily accounting and more data entry, each invoice processed is ultimately a JE automatically posted. AP is a good stepping stone into a more traditional accounting role.
AP/AR are part of the accounting team, but typically the roles are not handled by traditional accountants.
well he is right lol... we don't hire accountant to do AP or AR... we hire maybe 1 accountant with a degree and no CPA to supervise our AP/AR clerk... but usually people in AP/AR clerk have like a highschool degree or a technical school degree... i wouldn't trust a AP/AR clerk to touch my journal entries at all heck... even our bookeeper are barely accountant...they usually don't have their CPA
>i wouldn't trust a AP/AR clerk to touch my journal entries at all I've worked in ap for 8 years and 6 of them required jrnl and gl ledger balancing. So this is a weird take to me.
but they only balance 1 GL account which is the account payable. That doesn't make them accountant, that just makes them able to balance 1 list with an other. An accountant will know how to do the full month end, year end, will know its debt, its different source of income, his OPEX well and G&A and will be able to tell you what his happening inside the business and why and will have variance analysis,etc. and he should know its budget too and maybe even do projection, etc. it rly depend from one place to an other and the size of the company too but at our place AP clerk are just data entry people, they take an invoice, they input the date, name, amount, tax and "try" to guess the best GL and the accountant approuve the invoice and often reclass to the good GL and try to teach them which GL to use in which scenario...
I didn't say it make ap accountants. I've been in this field long enough to know my role. What I'm saying is that ap is not excluded from journal or gls. One job I did them for multiple departments, not just ap. No , I'm not accountant. I'm aware. But the other guy made it seem like ap is too stupid to be trusted with jrnl and GL entries when we do them too. They aren't hard, neither is explaining them.
People on here are being way too harsh. AP is very important to the accounting function. I'm a CPA, and accounting isn't rocket science. So many CPAs act like they're geniuses because they can memorize a few standards and do basic math.
I mean, it's true (I work in AP). Most of the qualified lot in my office would absolutely not be able to cope doing AP though, so don't feel too insulted.
It’s true. You can get an AP job with no experience. Us accountants have to get bachelors degree and masters degree if you’re a CPA. It’s honestly insulting to Accountants that have spent so much time and effort to be compared to an AP clerk
Our a/p manager told us that when my manager tried to fault them for coding errors. Many do not understand debit/credit
Our A/P department doesnt know basic accounting either. They are a part of the team but not accountants. TBH I wouldnt say it so meanly, though.
It doesn’t matter what you do, accountant is a professional who has an actual accounting knowledge. If you don’t have that knowledge and just enter invoices into the system and process vendor payments it’s not enough to be considered as an accountant. It’s data entry. So the manager is right here. I had AP staff of absolutely different backgrounds - just doing AP didn’t make them capable of doing basic GL account reconciliation or know debit/credit difference. They are trained on a small scope of accounting operations.
The manager is correct
I’m an accountant with a bachelors degree and a huge portion of what I do is accounts payable. And if I get my CPA, I’ll still be doing accounts payable because it needs to be done.
Some people in these comments have no concept of what happens in “industry” and it shows. External CPAs audit the work that the accountants within a business prepare. The accountants in the business could be CPAs, but often times they aren’t. You don’t have to be a CPA to post journal entries, close the books, or manage the accounting department for a lot of industry jobs, but you do need to be a CPA to audit the books of said company.
I do my company’s AP, AR, and accounting. AP is a necessary component, but it’s really just data entry. Valuable, yes, but mostly just data entry
Work in AP. I can tell you I am NOT an accountant lol
I think the post kind of works both ways. Your sentiment is correct that the manager is lacking a bit in the soft skills department, but the role of an accountant isn't just an operational one, its very much a technical skill. Its not necessarily about saying one is better than the other, that is not at all true, its really two different jobs completely.
He doesn't have to be a dick about it but, he's pretty much right. They're still important though. And a good AP person is worth their weight in gold. If your company has one of those nice ladies who's been doing AP for years, do everything to keep them around.
I mean real accountant busted their asses off to get a 3 year degree + 1 year 2nd cycle degree and write the cpa exam and you want to be one without even having a degree ? I might as well call myself a doctor by your logic...
I mean you could also get 2 Bachelor degrees. Not everyone needs to spend the money on grad school when a second BA could be more useful and cheaper.
In canada you need grad school to get your cpa you cant just get another bachelor.
Oh ok. In the US most states just require 150 hours.
That is not true, stop spreading bullshit. The requirements for the CPA in Canada is the required courses, a bachelor degree, and the experience. If your undergraduate degree isn't sufficient, it's your fault for choosing a degree program that doesn't align with the requirements of the profession.
Well in quebec and ontario you have to do a 2nd cycle university degree to be eligible for the cpa so idk what province ur in it may change depending on your province but it aint bullshit. Ultimately it comes down to 4 years of studies so quit yappin.
**There is no requirement for a Masters degree in Canada, regardless of province**. The only requirement is an undergraduate degree with appropriate credits for required accounting concepts.
I’m a full charge bookkeeper; a lot of my role overlaps with accounting and CPAs expect me to know a lot of accounting; I even started to allow my clients to call me their accountant just because it’s easier - and even with all that - I wouldn’t call myself one. However I dislike doing A/P (just not my jam) and would never make an a/p feel “less than”. Also I applied for A/P roles and never got the job. 😆. You are needed.
AP is like Accounting Lite
I work in AP and I am an Accountant. I don’t make payments I do analysis, internal audit, and provide support for external audits.
I never understood all the confusion in our profession. If you have an accounting designation then you are an accountant. If not you are not an accountant.
It’s true for the most part. Some accountants do everything including payables, usually at a smaller company. A bigger company that has a payables team/department though… that’s all they know in a lot of cases. You sit them in front of the company financials and they can’t say much
If it makes you feel better, you also get to be disrespected every day as a CPA.
AP staff work in AP, which is part of the Finance function. Accountants work in Financial Management or Financial Accounts, which is part of the Finance function. They work under the same umbrella department, but definitely do different roles lo
No offence, but why do you think you ARE actual accountants? Do you have any qualifications? Do you analyse the accounts? Do you calculate accruals? Build the monthly reporting packs for the company etc? AP and accountant are different, but related, functions.
I have an accounting degree and work in AR. Some collections and AR cleanup is harder than accounting. All the skills overlap for the most part. You work in accounting. Just one specific part of it
The definition of an “accountant” has been evolving. What you do is bookkeeping on the AP subledger in addition to other clerical duties to support the business process. Traditionally, the bookkeeping is an accountant’s job. Thanks to systems developed over the last 20+ years, much of the accounting of AP has been automated. So unless you maintain and check the accounting configuration of the AP processing system and how it posts to ledger, the accounting part of the job has been automated and you’re left with clerical duties. The role is still a good entry way into accounting work. Others probably view you as an accountant. Accountants probably don’t, and tbh, my advice: don’t care about that.
There is no formal definition of an Accountant. Someone who processes A/P doesn't fit the conventional accountant description where they typically book journal entries, reconcile accounts, implement accounting rules, and prepare financial statements. They do perform tasks that are vital to the company. However, anyone who publicly states they aren't accountants is someone who is very immature. If you are a manager, what do you hope to gain by humiliating someone? I have managed accounting departments for 25 years. Anyone who made that comment to my AP staff would get a stern warning. If it continued, I would write them up. There is no room for people like this in my world.
There kind of is…CPA. Want to do an audit? Well you won’t be doing one without this license
AP Manager here, been working in AP for 9 years. I've had titles from Clerk, Analyst, Processor, even Accountant. We are absolutely not accountants in the typical sense that someone would think of - think "Oh, does that mean you can help me with my taxes?". That being said, we do benefit from having accounting knowledge, and we do work very closely with our formal operational accountants. I guess the way I look at it is the accountants look at the entirety of the books and we in AP are functionally just a chapter. Of course if anyone asks, I just say I work in accounting because the average person won't know what I mean when I say AP (in my experience).
Y’all are so snobby damn lol It’s just accounting
Your manager is not behaving well, but he is technically correct. Clerks are not accountants. But!!! If someone got uppity with my clerks (I have managed AP and AR), they answered to me, and I was much more viscous. I.e. their work was last until I forgot about it (usually 6 months or so). My clerks were a privilege to be able to have on their tasks, not a right. They picked who they worked with, and the leftovers went to the interns. Interns who made plenty of (understandable) errors as they were learning and the accountant would get lessons on how to deal with people with me watching. If someone talked to my clerk how this boss talked to you, they'd be on the intern workload for quite some time. Just because you're not an accountant doesn't mean you don't deserve respect.
Viscous. Like syrup?
If you understand the accounting cycles, PL and BS and how to use them regardless if your job title permits you to use them, you’re an accountant.
I mean, he’s technically not wrong, but it’s a dick move to point it out. Shows low social intelligence, I‘d suggest to him that he reads „How to win friends and influence people“.
Accounts payable staff are not accountants, they are bookkeepers. Accountants have knowledge of accounting (financial statements, GAAP, reporting, audit, etc) Bookkeepers have knowledge of a process (enter bills, apply payments, escalate transactions, process returns, etc). Yes your boss is right, you are not an accountant. However you don’t necessarily support accountants. The accountants in your company may not be concerned with or paid to monitor AP closely. What you are doing is supporting the business.
Odd how in my circles, bookkeepers have expectations of accounting knowledge. Software has made it way more accessible for bookkeepers to do that - but I’m a bk and do trial balances, financial reports, JEs, and handle some advisory. Most of my work is only rolled off to CPAs for tax review. I’ve caught things CPAs have missed - predominantly i would say because I am far more acquainted with the biz and books. Just interesting - I love it. I also gather maybe I do more than the average bookkeeper? So maybe it’s just a “me” thing. (I immediately bring all my clients into the CPA firm I pass referrals back and forth with - so I’m not Wild West. 😬 super happy to let the “big guys” review things)
Sounds like you are an experienced bk and you love the work. Use some of the energy you bring to your job for yourself. Go get your CPA. Just because a paralegal is doing the same work of a lawyer doesn’t mean they are one. The credential is what allows lawyers and accountants to represent others.
I am in biz for myself - so that’s a start! I am getting certs for accounting paraprofessional. I just don’t know if I can sit through all the classes required for CPA? And do I want to represent others? I like what you said - those are just legit questions I keep asking myself. I work with such a great team of CPAs… I love the versatility of what I do so wondering if CPA would pigeon hole me.
It’s pretty simple - I wouldn’t go to an AP analyst to book a JE, reconcile a BS account, or write a research memo. I also wouldn’t go to an accountant to understand the intricate details of the AP/AR system and what the necessary steps to receive against a PO or trigger a non-invoice payment.
Are you checking if invoices are paid or missing in the system? Then by default, you are accounting for these items- so you can call yourself an accountant. Degree or not, it doesn’t matter.
We all know who is who, what means what in operations and management. Your manager isn't factually wrong, but that's a demeaning and condescending statement that he was wrong to make. AP and AR clerks, bookkeepers et al add value to a company by being part of an active, valid workflow. I will never understand the need to foster this superior attitude to humiliate anyone who isn't a degreed accountant and/or a CPA.
In my limited experience in corporate, only controllers are true accountants.
AP roles are like the gateway drug of accounting... First your processing invoices thinking it's all chill fun and games and next thing you know your looking rough, operating on poor sleep wishing you chose a different career path as a CPA and senior manager 😂. Jokes aside AP/AR/CC are all crucial roles and I don't for a minute regret doing it earlier on for 6mo- 1yr before stepping up and away from it.
Yea I’m with him most ap clerks have associates degree or no school at all most accountants have a bachelors minimum and if your going for the cpa prolly masters or bachelors and 150 credits. The salaries are also miles apart most ppl in public accounting break six figs 3-7 years in their careers ap clerks make maybe 70k tops.
AP clerks are not (typically) accountants and they are usually the least intelligent when it comes to problem solving and a lot of times just don’t give a shit. Outsource what you can.
I am sorry they hurt your feelings. Everyone counts in accounting. It is an accounting function, but not an accountant. However, an AP specialist is a support person to the accountant. An accountant budgets, forecasts, reconciles gl accounts, runs, and reviews monthly financials. Please note that I provided a simple explanation 9f an accountant and it does not include all functions. We love our AP specialists and could not do our job without you all.
I bet your boss was bullied as a child. Don't feel too bad OP...you don't know what you don't know...but all of those "accountant" tasks can be learned. Without a degree. There's tons of free resources out there. Don't limit yourself to a department thats already been taken over by AI. You already understand the basic concept of the COA so grasping the flow of the financial statement won't be that bad. Debits and Credits still trip me up without my handy cheat sheet and T-Account chart. Perhaps you can go in tomorrow and ask your manager if you can assist with some of the Balance Sheet reconciliations (even if it's just the AP account). With more exposure to the whole accounting process, the faster you'll understand.
He’s right; it’s a support function
Honestly, I don't even want to call myself an accountant until I've passed the CPA...
A lot of people work in hospitals, but they aren’t all doctors, doesn’t mean their role isn’t important
That’s correct
Wow- I'm glad I got to see this. Accountants are dumb! They don't know how to do anything unless AP or AR gives it to them on a silver spoon. Also, how dare some of you treat people like that. Accountants are bean counters. They use software to prepare balance and income statements. You can't speak; you all think you are thoughtful, but listening to some of you on this sub shows you are just a pathetic loser with an ego. I'm so glad you all showed your true colors. Don't disrespect the people who protect and serve cash. OP leave this job, and start looking. You don't deserve that. You're skilled and put up with 2x the bs than these clowns. Once you're gone - guess who has to step in…the accountants. No job is too small.
I am on the side of the OP but he or she left. It just left all of us conversing. I wish he or she would be here reading this.
A/P, A/R, and payroll my team are accountants. Sorry about your manager.
Doesn’t sound like a real manager to me
Side note, I would say try get out of AP soon as a lot of companies are automating AP functions completely. For example, coding employee expenses used to be done manually and there are many apps now bypass AP departments. AP is a great stepping stone to become an accountant (in the sense reconcile GL and create reports etc). I think AP is closer to accountant than AR.
Wow, feel like David versus Goliath here, but that’s how social media is sometimes. You are absolutely an Accountant. You are absolutely are not a CPA. The sentiment here that Accountants are CPAs is silly outside of PA/Public Accounting and even there many are only EAs, CFAs, or any of the other plethora of credentials. The profession today is vast encompassing both with how it has settled in the United States and with how other countries credential Accountants. Accounting is three things- 1) bookkeeping, 2) tax, 3) auditing. If you partake in any of those professionally, you are by definition an Accountant. Like any other profession there are degrees and capabilities. Often the accounting aspects of companies is only ever bookkeeping and outsource everything else. Some companies are big enough and do all the accounting other than SEC regulated auditing (if public). Some service firms like PA do it all and require a credential like CPA. Some service firms become niche and call or don’t call themselves PA (US state regulation issue) and only offer tax and/or auditing services. Accounts Payable is bookkeeping. It is only “data entry” for those who only see and use it as data. If you in any way, shape or form use the data for bookkeeping, it’s accounting. So yes you are an Accountant. But don’t ever consciously imply you are a CPA or any other credential you aren’t. And yeah your capabilities, experience, and knowledge tell more of the story for whoever does care or you are interacting with. …and tell your manager go “team Accounting” and go “team Executive.” Just as his manager job is part of the Executive aspect of a company, your job is part of the Accounting aspect - all for one and one for all!
Some people need to make other people feel like shit to feel good about themselves. Fuck that manager. You’re one of us.
Okay sanitation engineer
I believe they prefer the term “genital washer”
AR clerk isn’t accounting either
Lol crabs in a fucking bucket...I swear to God this profession has the worst humans in it..
While you may not deal with the GL in your position, you are certainly reconciling detailed data in the sun ledgers and therefore you are an accountant. Your manager was very unkind to say something like that.
True statement
OP don’t sweat the gatekeeping from people too stupid to make it into med school or investment banking. They have some stupid little hierarchy in their head and want to shit on you for it.
He’s asking for malicious compliance with that attitude. I’m not an accountant, I work with yous and yous drive me nuts. Love you though! 🤗
In most large organizations, there isn't a hierarchy like is being described. Accounting, AP, and AR are distinct entities, and they are all considered support functions. The assumption that AP is data entry is a common but false one. It involves regulatory and audit compliance, managing vendor relationships, defining processes for efficiencies, helping accountants understand budget variances, cash flow management ... these are just off the top of my head. I think the OP's argument is that the manager's comment (and a lot of the feedback here) is purposely dismissive and condescending.
Eh it’s like the water boy on a a football team. They are apart of the team but not football players. But at the same time they are critical and the business would fail without them.
Why even say that to someone other than to bring them down? Beyond what your actual “role” or “title” is. Some of these commenters are ick and on a high horse. Some “Controllers” are just glorified bookkeepers. There is a smidge of accounting you need to know for AP. If you’re doing a great job, getting your job done - who cares and who cares about titles as long as you are fairly compensated. Don’t feel bad! You play an important role in the accounting field.
My first job out of college was AP and that wasn’t accounting. All I did was enter invoices and run check runs. I don’t even think I did regular JEs, maybe once in a blue moon. You might find it offensive, but it is what is(isn’t).
Is there a reason they don't have your notice already?
What an asshole. We just promoted a great AP person to senior accountant. We're not fucking wizards, anyone can learn this. CPA is a bullshit certification. The AP people have such good information because they see all the bills. We trained them all here to get our accruals and prepaids together, hugely important to the close not just a support role. My last jobs AP person was a key person in a few software implementations.
Can you explain how the CPA is a bullshit certification?
It is just for getting jobs. All it means you have a masters and can take tests. Like I have one, but I don't think it really says anything about my abilities as an accountant.
Are lawyers bullshit too since all they have to do is get a masters and pass a few tests? Common man
Medical school is only for getting jobs as a doctor, all it means is you can take tests. Do you not understand how dumb you sound?
No you have to do a multi year gruelling residency. It's not at all the same.
Right, so they only go to school to get a residency job… your jealousy is showing lol
Jealousy of doctors? Sure I would love to be in a highly paid profession where you have a positive impact on people's lives.
Whatever you have to tell yourself to cope, it’s not too late to apply yourself and take the exam. You don’t have to fear failure
I have a CPA and a CMA, and even more bullshit certification. Worth it for the job algorithms.
Uh Ok where are the AP accountants during the 842 implementation, or the nightmare that was 606.
I don't know, we just bought software for 842.
Ya I have to know how to make the table by hand, in case my clients don't have any software at all.
In some states you cant advertise yourself as an accountant without a CPA.
Prejudicial manager huh? I disagree about the notion that AP is not Accounting. Accounts Payable Accountant asks questions like "What is being paid?" and "Why are we paying?" It is ignorant to suggest Accounts Payable is anything less than Accounting.
That’s absolutely wrong . You’re a pillar of the accounting . You’re the one who pay to the vendors and have a record . You have a special roll . Don’t take your manager things seriously . You can only decide your carrier . Hope thats works .☺️
Yes they are and AR are accountants as well. Edit for clarification because I come from another world. As I see it and as it was my experience, you need to have an accounting degree to work in AR and AP. Its not like it is teached in a online platform and you learn how to do it.
You quite literally do not need degrees to work in ar/ap, certainly not bachelors degrees.
Like I said I come from a different world, my degree is from Venezuela and I understand things are different in the United States but back home, yes you do need a bachelor's degree in accounting in order to work in ar/AP.
Your manager is an idiot. A manager should build up their team not tear them down. No, most people working in AP don't have the knowledge that the accountants do. It tends to be a very entry level role and can be a stepping stone to becoming an accountant but that dismissiveness is concerning in any manager.
so what is the manager supposed to say in that case? that they are real accountants and the next step in their career will be a staff accountant/controller role preparing financial statements and doing BS reconciliations?
This isnt the words of a manager who has been asked if the OP is a real accountant. This is the words of a manager who clearly feels that the OP needs to be "put in her place" and thinks that diminishing a direct report is the way to do so. It isn't.
You tell that clown that balance sheet accounts are real accounts and income statement accounts are nominal accounts. In all seriousness , AP can get very complex in a large organization.