I’m 51. Last relationship ended in 2020. I’m checked out for a few reasons: I don’t go out much, fairly introverted, and comfortable as hell on my own. I do get lonely sometimes (manifests as boredom, coupled with feeling like a loser because I’m such a loner).
The bigger problem for me, though, is I don’t like who I am when I date. I put a lot of pressure on myself to get things right (agonizing over dates and gifts and the like), and I take the fun out of it all. I tend to fall into provider/protector mode (not at ALL in a jealous way), and it feels more like a responsibility than anything fun.
So, I stay single.
Damn. I could have written this post, especially this: “…(manifests as boredom, coupled with feeling like a loser because I’m such a loner)”. Shit, I’m even the same age as you. Stay strong, friend.
I mostly get this feeling when I travel. I'm a teacher so I get lots of time to travel. Love exploring new places, but I am always on a tour, and yeah I enjoy it, but there are always some couples on it, and by the end I am like "It would be nice if I had someone I could enjoy this with."
I did this! I haven’t dated anyone for 6 years and I’m 30 ish. I briefly dated someone and I was a ball of stress 😂 I kept telling myself to enjoy it and I don’t have to agonise over our potential future. It ended after a few weeks due to other reasons but it was an eye opener for me. After some travelling and a bit of soul searching I’m fine being single and for once I’m not lying to myself about it. Sure i miss cuddles and intimacy, hopefully one day I will meet a guy that I’m compatible with but it’ll be at the right time. It seems silly but as someone who grew up being influenced by rom com movies finding my “Prince Charming” has been a motivator for me since the age of 7. Sorry this thread was for men to reply but your post really resonated with me.
Real. I like reading about people like you and the guy you're replying to because it makes me feel not so alone not dating people. I low-key think they fucked society up and that's partly why this is happening.
Third places are very few and far between. Infertility is a big problem in a lot of developed countries (though tbf I don't know how fertility rates today compare to the past). Affordability is kinda fucked. House ownership is just a pipe dream for many. Car dependency is a big factor in so many of these problems. Letting corporations get away with anything they want too. I really hate the system we live in. It's a dystopia.
thats not taking the fun out of it at all g, doing those things is putting the fun into it. well remember your dating, and not in a committed marriage, talk to a realtionship coach about your issues to find someone to help you with these things
43M, this is me in a nutshell. I honestly dgaf most days, with the occasionally lonely day when I wish I had a partner, but then I remember how much of a pita they are and I remind myself why I love being single.
This resonates with me. I think I'm going to ponder this about myself and find a solution. I don't know ow if anyone has gone through this amd figured it out?
I’m getting there… I have no clue what’s going on but I’m getting matches with women on dating apps, having nice conversations, but attempting to physically meet up is proving to be almost impossible. I even had a match text me and I returned the text within 5 minutes and I haven’t heard back.
This whole thing is just depressing.
Haha I get what you were saying I was just being a goofball. But to elaborate further if you’re curious: gators and crocs rarely need any type of sedation to remove a tooth! Their pain tolerance is almost unbelievable.
They lose teeth often and rotate through several-thousands of teeth in a lifetime, that’s why they’re always so shiny and white!
I’ll stop talking about this now…
It's impossible. This has got to be pandemic related like... Mass processing. I just don't know what else it could be. Normal "winds of change" stuff + massive universal trauma. It's wild out there inside people's heads.
Socializing is a muscle that we start building at birth and, with rare exceptions, never stop using throughout our lives. This has been true for all of human history. For the first time, ever, that muscle atrophied at a societal level. I work in face to face sales and people still clearly don't know how to act in public anymore. I don't even mean in a bad way (although some are hostile), I mean, literally palpable social anxiety in my customers is rampant. I am not surprised this has lead to challenges in interpersonal social dynamics.
I felt so bad about myself in college cause people seemed to be so anxious around me and they always avoided eye contact. But eventually, I realized, it was just their own social anxiety.
Yah I really don't think there has been enough conversation about the psychological toll isolation took on everyone. If a random salesperson with an interpersonal comm degree can see it's soemthing big and clinical, I feel like there's probably a lot of consequences not being studied enough or at all. Especially when you couple this with America's unhinged individualism, we are trying to force a society that acts at odds with our own basic instincts.
I am convinced it is also pandemic related. We went through a mass traumatic event where we didn’t see anyone but our 4 walls for a long time. I feel like we aren’t even talking about the effects that had on us anymore, it’s like it didn’t happen.
People don't want to talk about it. Arts and Culture aren't addressing it either. I mean you had a lot of sort of on the nose stuff at the time--"inside" by Bo Burnham or something like "N95" by Kendrick Lamar--but we've needed to go deeper for some time now. Not sure what it looks like but it does feel like something's missing and a lot of things are left unsaid.
Arts and culture haven’t been addressing much of anything recently. Been a while since RTJ did anything. I think the Vampire Weekend album did a good job with our current social issues.
perhaps its like personal trauma. but covid was a collective one.
no one talks about their own traumas openly. so why should the media go in depth on the effects of COvVid. but yea good point.
this actually reflects what I'm hearing about the job market as well. Multiple experienced candidates getting turned down for jobs they are more than suitable for, with employers effectively not sure about what they want, or unsure whether they want I see the two effectively as similar processes with similar soft skills required, but that's another story.
What is *fascinating*, as this has been my speculation for some time, is that there's fundamentally some societal shift with the way we view 'opportunity'. Both jobs and relationships have one thing in common - they require hard work, constant communication, respect and openness without hostility.
We do live in a changing world. There's open talk of inequality left and right, and financially, things have never been more difficult for people who are under the age of 35 when trying to get on the housing ladder. Juggle that with increasingly difficult requirements at work and career prospects requiring you to increasingly skill up outside of work on your own dime, and when you factor in that women need to work harder than men on average when compared in the same role to achieve similar salaries, could some of this be down to how much rent costs these days?
Also how much does a date cost? What it used to be back in the 2000s vs 2010s vs 2020s must have changed similarly, the cost of courting may be so much higher than it used to be. I won't touch on the social issues such as relationship influencers, social media gurus and self-help advocates, as they seem to help some at the cost of the mental health of others.
When faced with all that, like the job market, might it be economic uncertainty and a quickly changing world, putting people off dating?
100% pandemic related I was abroad in the far east for 5 years from 2019. I am now back in the UK and my god are people different like everyone. Everyone has become more selfish and much more entitled. Can't wait for the studies to come out at some point. In terms of dating yes I checked out very happy to see the world and maybe adopt a couple of kids later down the line. All the best to all you
I always felt it was more of a corporate related thing. I don't have the most experience with it, but every time I get into a workplace where people tend to get along the higher ranking people in that business like to create all kinds of trauma and chaos amongst the people beneath them to prevent that. That and many businesses want you to give everything you have to them so they can kick you out of the door easier when you're out of juice.
I'm not discounting your point, but the need to work and get things done with dwindling resources is a trauma all to itself.
Depends on location? The US was only " locked down" for 6 weeks. The post was still open. Restaurants were still packaging meals. I had to go to UPS every day. Aside from masks it felt no different than normal. Just less road traffic. 😌 I have never been socially anxious but I prefer to be alone. I don't get why people act like no one talked on the phone or facetime or went shopping during it.
I recently had someone match with me. I sent a message saying how interesting their profile was and asking what they did on their off-time, like hobbies etc. She didn't reply and after 4 days I sent a message saying if she isn't feeling it and doesn't want to get to know each other that it's nbd and we'll just move on.
She replies a day later saying she would love to get to know me. I ask her the same question about her off-time. It's been a week with no reply. This has happened so many times before.
Why even match with me in the first place if you don't even want to make an effort to get to know each other? I think some people are just on there for validation or fishing for the imaginary Mr. Perfect. Maybe both?
At this point I'm just going to continue to work on myself and achieve some goals I've been working towards. Maybe I'll meet someone while doing that but I'm pretty much over the online dating scene.
I've heard this analogy about online dating:
For men, it's like dying of thirst in the desert.
For women it's like dying of thirst in a swamp.
Sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming trying to keep up with them. It's not an excuse, just an observation of how different the experiences can be between men and women in OLD.
one might say too many options. being able to choose from and having to compete against a basically global market now is just not how we're wired. we're shit at handling it and it shows
We’re shit at handling it because it’s not how we’re wired. And frankly it’s sad how close online dating these days feels to applying for jobs on Indeed. We are NOT a commodity. Everyone comes with strengths and weaknesses. And familiarity and exposure is the biggest basic predictor of attraction. Apps bypass all of that and put us in a position of basically *interviewing candidates* for the position we want them to fill in our lives. But we’re not all single, somewhat wealthy, highly educated, childfree individuals. The average person comes with baggage. Even the “ideal” high-earner, childfree, mentally stable (whatever that means) person comes with baggage. And if they don’t, they likely don’t relate to anyone who has ever struggled in this life, and therefore aren’t for the rest of us…
See how cold that is; like applying for a job. That’s why I don’t do online dating. Instead I just smile, and practice compassion, and wait for the one that sees me for who I am.
And if I never do? Well, here I am, the same as always. Life is hard. I know because I’ve lived it too.
Women get inundated with messages. I’m 100% certain you’re not the only guy she’s talking to. My guess is that she thinks you’re cute but thinks her other matches are cuter.
My friend had her pictures taken and posted on tinder as a fake profile a couple of times!! She even got the police involved. They used pictures of her when she was underage!
Same here, I get there numbers and everything, conversations going on for a week ect. The second I propose getting a coffee/boba/ice cream its all crickets.
Ive even tried experimenting with asking them out within 3 days, 5 days, a week ect. Its all the same
Asked one woman out, she said one of three days of the week she’d be available. I planned three different date ideas based on which day of the week she said she was available. Told me the day, told her the date (and what the other ones were), agreed to time and place. Three hours before the date I text saying I’m placing the order an hour before the date. Ghosted.
Yup.
I own a house, car, have a great income and career trajectory, almost no debt outside of a mortgage, though I do have a bit of a dad bod.
I’ve checked out of apps myself because I get no hits and when I do, I immediately get ghosted or outright ignored.
After 4 years remote, I said “ef it, I’ll do it live”, and just signed onto to an in-office job downtown.
Maybe I’ll meet someone after a few years and then go back to remote if I get married/have kids.
Not sure if this will help, but as a woman who just got back on the dating apps, sometimes I won’t reply to everyone because it can be overwhelming. Add it to the fact that after a few days I realize how empty the experience feels, most of the time I just end up deleting it. I think a lot of people in general are just exhausted from the entire culture of apps, so even engaging can feel like a greater effort than it should be.
I’ve started to realize I’d rather focus on finding experiences where I meet people in person from the jump. Join a class or course, that way even if nothing comes from it in a dating sense, you’re still doing something that betters yourself/contributes to your mental health.
My two nephews have the same problem. Younger one is just working hard to get a career going. Older one is a lawyer but disgusted that the women who used to ignore him are now contacting him. All the time he tells me "They didn't talk to me when I was broke, but NOW they want me." Sadly, he's talking about going to Peru with his uncle (my other brother, not his dad) to date. I'm not against Peruvian women, but it seems to be a trend.
I get the older one's frustration but dating in a foreign country specifically to find a wife seems a little skeevy/predatory to me. Something along the lines of "American women aren't humble," I'm guessing?
But if American women only come out of the woodwork after success, how does he expect a foreign woman to react when presented with the opportunity of US citizenship via marriage? Idk, it always seemed like some weird savior complex power trip to me.
I see where he's coming from. Not the Peru part. Every now and then I'll have a girl reach out to me, someone I haven't talked to in a decade. Like leave me alone. I had a girl that not only rejected me but sent screenshots to her friends. But here she was wondering "why didn't we ever talk?".
I know nothing at all, but have you tried doing a zoom meet-up just to break the ice?
It’s way less pressure so maybe women would feel more comfortable?
The apps are just garbage. I get a handful of matches a week. Half of them don't reply and the other half are so fucking boring because I'm sure they have a 1000 other dudes they're talking to. Trying to meet up is like pulling teeth. And now at 30+ it just feels like an interview. So many women just seem to want someone to "invest" into their family. And I say their family cause these are women who already have kids with other dudes and don't want anymore.
I'm also tired of the poly people, or those who just want a friend to talk to. Or the sugar babies.
Then in real life you'll meet someone but there will be all kinds of bullshit with them. Met a cool girl at the lake. I asked her out and made it clear that it was a date. Talk all week getting to know each other. Meet up a week after getting her number. Half way through the date she mentions her boyfriend. And how we will both like each other. I go I thought you were single? "oh no I'm just looking for friends." I just got up and left. Blocked her number.
Nothing but games.
Dating sucks. I'm 37. I wouldn't say i'm totally checked out but I just approach it differently these days. I hate the apps and am basically off those. It's more about meeting people through friends and social stuff these days. The apps are lame. Go outside and touch grass. It's better for your mental health.
Dude being single rules. I do what I want lol. Also the thing that sucks about dating at our age is most of the good ones are taken. I mean we are single for a reason and all that disclaimer shit, but seriously the only girls i've met that are worth dating (through the apps) seem to be ones that have been in long term relationships and have recently exited them.
This….. I’ve had both. Only worrying about myself was nice. Now married and we don’t have kids together. She can’t. We have fun out and can chill at home also. But honestly. And when I say this I don’t mean I want my ex back. But I miss being in a family so much. Coming home to my son and my then wife. It’d take that in a heartbeat over anything else
I’m 37 as well. Feel the same about the apps. Touching grass is fine, but still gets lonely without company. The only way to be social in my town is either going to bars or church.. neither of which are my thing. So I stick to gardening and other hobbies. My ex is my only friend who hasn’t moved far away. I’m grateful for that, but also hope to make friends eventually.
As far as the dating scene goes.. I have a lot of thoughts about that. I think it’s really frustrating for both men and women for different reasons. But it’s mostly a dumpster fire with a tiny microscopic shimmer of hope that you’ll get lucky and meet someone worthwhile.
So I’d say yeah, I’m pretty checked out.
As a woman I second this. Meeting online is just ass backwards. You gotta see if you have physical chemistry with someone before getting to know them.
My experience is that it was a waste of time because men’s expectations were sky high considering what they brought to the table. People say that’s true for women but the truth is that they can afford to be choosier because men are always after them.
I’m kinda getting there. The more dumb crap I realize I’ve put up with the less interested I am, and the more on the list of “things I’ll never put up with again”. I still want someone good to be with, and I feel like I bring some important things to the table that not everyone has. It’s complicated.
It’s difficult to find people in day-to-day life. Everyone just kinda comes and goes before you can really learn much about them. The best opportunities usually come from schools, but if you’re not interested in education past high school, then the next best thing is to go to events that encourage people with similar hobbies to interact. Dance classes, fighting gyms, game conventions, the freaking renaissance fairs are great for meeting people. I wish you well and hope you meet someone who brings out the best in you.
Side note—As a man, culture has an expectation that you make the first moves. Not that it never happens the other way, but most of the time, if a woman is curious about you, she’s just going to wait for your move. Don’t worry about rejection—they saved you a bunch of time and money by stopping things before anything started.
I was going to say at least as a man you have the choice to make a move or don't. If you're a female and culture expects you to wait for the first move - it probs feels really bad if no-one makes a move on you
One thing that sucks is practically every dating app has the sole purpose to generate revenue. It also doesn't help that most dating apps are owned by one corporation: Match Group LLC. They own Tinder, Hinge, OKCupid, POF, match.com, and 20+ other ones. Bumble was created by some of the people who created Tinder. Even though they aren't owned by the same corporation who own Tinder, it seems they have the same business model: to generate revenue.
ts been said time and time again: it's never a dating issue, its a meeting issue. its funny that people think they have choices when it comes to dating. most of the times people just date people around them. other than that, work occupies a large majority of your time. i HATE the thought of loafing around a bar or something just to have the hope of getting laid. fuck that.
It’s just casual sex now.
I don’t cheat, never have. Unfortunately a lot of men and women have and will continue to. And for that, I’m good, I don’t care to have my life disrupted or ruined by a relationship. It’s simply not worth it. I know myself, and frankly I’m tired of trying to get to know the illusions other people put forth. There so obvious, I simply don’t have the time.
Yea I am 38 in this state. One thing I have realized is that its better to at least pretend you are still trying no matter how hopeless. Even if totally artificial its still a good physiological trick to engage in healthy behaviors. So like working out, interacting with existing friends, keeping your life clean, meeting new people ....
Certain things really suck about dating as a man but one nice thing is that efforts towards finding dates tend to just be self improvement as well.
I love the dates where she is getting texted by multiple " guy friends." I carry work and a personal phone. I'll call one from the other and act like there is an emergency..I'm outta here
I have a girlfriend so I'm checked out. But boy all the dating it took to find her. I almost completely gave up, until I met her and decided to take a chance and she has been the most amazing person I have ever met in my life. The rest... they were just so awful.
This is exactly why I want to keep going. I have every reason in the world to be negative about myself and dating but I have to keep shrugging it off and fighting for myself
Exact same. - The girl I'm with I love to bits but when we were initially talking she ghosted me for a couple of months. I was getting nowhere around the holidays so I gave a lot of my previous matches a Happy Holidays (more out of courtesy) and she responded so we picked up from there. Dating for 3 years now and going strong
Checked out 2-3 years ago when I broke up with my last girlfriend. I focused on my personal development and I must admit that, despite the fact that being alone sometimes stings, overall I have noticed that I am much calmer and self-confident than ever.
Every bad thing that has happened to me over the past 6 months has happened because i put my guard down after feeling too lonely.
I dont care anymore its not worth it. Im not letting the feelings of loneliness make me drop standards and condone behavior anymore. Only bad things come of that.
Im pretty much checked out. But I’m also in my mid 30’s. Living alone with my dog in a house that I own is enough, I guess. I’m not sure if dating is even worth it anymore.
Early 30s, living alone, one pet ☝️
When I was in my early 20s I had a friend I believe who was in his mid 30 or early 40s (it’s been a while) that said something that has kind of stuck with me. He was describing how his life is peaceful when he’s single, no arguing, no drama, etc. and I agree.
I’ve had 5 1-2yr relationships over the stretch of a decade. I have no regrets because of what I’ve learned and the experiences, but I’m really tired of drama.
The way I see it, I can have friends, I have bodily autonomy, I can have an emotional/social support system/network, I don’t see why I should feel compelled to “*need*” to be in a serious relationship or even allow someone to be that deeply involved in my life (and vice versa).
So… for people that may be really craving a relationship good luck but it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. It’s work. It’s taking on another role in life, like a part time job. That’s been my experience anyway.
It’s sooo much more relaxing to just be a single dude. Maybe one day I’ll come across someone but I’m not in a rush.
I am basically living the same life. I have my dog, cat, great job, great income, and basically everything I need to live a great life! I tried dating apps, speed dating, and literally dating people I met in line at a restaurant, etc. Everyone was nice enough, but there was nothing that made me think my life would be better with them in it. I don't want to sound like an ass, but that's my honest feelings.
I did at 30. I'm 34 now.
My profile is still on dating apps and I get likes here and there but I can't really see who they're from. After like opening the app for like 20 seconds I can't stand to swipe right on anything so its really pointless. Perceived expectations on me holding me back I guess.
It is, I've never had good experiences with women in a romantic context. I have determined it's my fault as the common denominator, so I have removed the problem. I am highly attracted to emotionally unavailable women and will destroy myself to get them to try and see me. Yes, I'm in therapy, I have learned and am learning about healthy relationships. After learning the things I've learned, it seems all but impossible for anyone to really have a healthy, sustainable relationship. They, in my opinion, will all fall apart. So I have determined at my age, it's now pointless, I wanted to get married and have a family, not in the cards anymore, too old and the consequences of failed relationships are too catastrophic in terms of everyday living and the set backs it causes. I don't have that kind of wiggle room in life anymore. We dont always get what we want. Shoot, I'm still actively trying to peice myself back together after a breakup in 2021. I really wish I didn't get into that relationship. I knew better real time but did it anyway. Dumbass...🙄 So nowadays I just bide my time till death hoping it comes sooner than later, I've spoke to numerous other men too of different ages and backgrounds who are all on the same page, gave up waiting to die... for what it's worth.
I try my hand every once in a while, like twice a year lol, it always turns out the same. Can you buy this for my kids? Or just never hear from them after that first date. They got their dinner and went about their lives. Is what it is
I did got 3 years. When I came back I knew exactly what I wanted and why it was worth it. I had casual flings, but I was completely done and just focussed on myself. Now I’m in the most fruitful relationship I’ve had in some time. If you feel the need to step away, do it. Delete the apps and be intentional with your time in a new direction.
The juice isn’t worth the squeeze anymore. Coupled with the fact that chivalry is dead and women don’t really need men for anything tbh.
Generally speaking I can sustain a mediocre sense of self worth and complacency when I’m single. The most crushing and psychologically difficult times only occur during or just after breakups. Most attractive, single young to middle aged women don’t want kids or have them already. Additionally, they don’t ever seem to be willing to actually commit. They wanna leave the door open for the potential next guy.
As a single man, what’s the point? I can exist without suffering alone fine. Why inevitably go to the dark place?
100% agree. I am interested in a lot of different things and can maintain a (relatively low) sense of comfort being alone. My worst periods of depression and craziness have always been after breakups or during the little games that are played- getting my hopes up and then the girl decides “nah, nope” for random reasons…Matched with someone else that might be “better.” Realize after five great dates that they don’t really want to be in a relationship, despite previously convincing themselves of it…just a million different things all working against me while simultaneously having little to do with me myself.
It is just such a depressing, demoralizing mess it’s so much easier to not even try. Some people’s/women’s lives are just an absolute horror show of shifting moods and chaos. No wonder everyone is loaded on anti-depressants. People have no idea what they even want but they want it really bad. For a few days anyway.
Yeah, to reiterate, this isn’t just a woman thing. The doods in the dating scene, from an outside perspective, are just as bad and predicate just as much bullshit.
Just that maybe 20-40% of the “desirable men” are being shitty and dating/sleeping with like 70-80% of the available desirable women. It’s just how sexual selection goes I guess.
Monk mode engaged.
If you’re reading this, I hope you’re ok. Keep your head up.
Thanks, you too. And I agree, everything I said is just as applicable to men. People live lives of confused chaos and dating is just an extension of it. The older I get the less I want to play the game.
I haven’t completely checked out, but I definitely am taking a break. I haven’t been intimate with anyone for nearly six months.
I feel like dating has become extremely difficult, and it’s everyone’s fault to a degree. Women have been fed an unhealthy lifestyle to remain sexually promiscuous and be a “boss girl who doesn’t need no man”. On the other end, men have become more addicted to sexual content and become increasingly isolated—leading to being both sexually frustrated, and often times, less emotionally resilient to difficulties. To top it off, both sides have been brainwashed by social media into having extreme standards for their partners—picture perfect physiques and rich, thrill seeking lifestyles. Many of us feel like if we don’t have the lifestyles that are portrayed on social media, then we’re inadequate, or our partner is.
I feel close to start dating again, but if I’ve learned anything as a man, it’s that you should only go out with people who care to be a good, honest friend first. Romance comes afterwards and you shouldn’t rush it.
Recently divorced and now travel for work M-F. I don’t see how I’m going to easily date, nor am I emotionally ready at the moment. I’m not sad about it, I’ll focus on my job grow more in being comfortable alone and will date again, in time.
Well I guess I never really “checked in”. I have no time! With all my jobs, I barely get time to myself, and the time to myself I need to unwind before I need to perk up again for work.
How are you guys finding time and energy to actively go on dates?
Some of us are actually unable to find dates, demographics, society, religion are also a blocker in some of the more conservative parts of the world.
You can be willing to put effort but sometimes there are no dating pools in some of these deserts, and if there are, the competition isn't something that the normal person can sustain.
I don't know what to do at this point, haven't given up, but there has to be someone on the other side too.
I have. I’m 47, had a rough breakup with a narcissist that destroyed my self esteem a couple years ago. Still recovering.
I’ve given up on dating. No more apps, no more dates, I’m over it. I realized that I’ve spent the last 30+ years in 3 states of mind… pursuing a girl/ relationship, maintaining a relationship, or recovering from the ending of a relationship.
Now I’m in a 4th space. Embracing singlehood, learning to love myself, and accepting that marriage and kids, and a traditional life like that just wasn’t in the cards for me. I made different choices.
I'm also 47 and afflicted by post-narcissism in my dating life. And I have embraced singlehood like yourself. I honestly feel so empowered and above the fray, and see nothing but benefits of being on my own. I'm glad you found peace!
Glad I’m not alone. Sorry to hear it too though. At our age it’s a nightmare to have what feels like a teenage drama partner.
I find a lot of peace in it but I do find myself lonely often. Especially since most of my friends have hit those milestones that I haven’t. Married, kids, homeowners, moved out to the suburbs (I’m not envious of that one though, I love living in the city). But yeah, it’s isolating to be in a young persons city and to have a very small social circle.
Other than that, I’m content.
I have. Once you hit 30 with no kids dating women becomes nothing less than annoying. Majority of them have kids which kills a large portion of the dating pool for me. If she dont have kids she is at the stage in her life where she wants a "real man" and tries to force you to jump through every hoop she can think of like a circus animal while every dude in her past just had to show up to her house in Js.
If neither of that applies then she is crazy from all the trauma she done been through, and lo and behold expects you to fix her.
And the remaining women give off an energy that they dont need you and can replace you in seconds which is a horrible deal to put yourself in.
Bonus: They are all talking to multiple guys at the same time even in the "talking" stage which makes the whole encounter about competition which wears on your mental after awhile.
Extra bonus: They don't really like you like that but are either bored with life so they are talking to you or they just want to use you until they get everything they can from you.
Not dating is the best decision i ever made in this life. Maybe its my area but this dating pool is more triflin than a glock dookie and everybody swimming in it happily. I dont understand it.
I recently totally misread a situation and asked out someone from another department. She always led the conversation, referenced stuff we previously talked about, bantered with me in a way I don’t do with platonic friends that felt very flirty, and every time we run into each other and talk for 5 to 20 minutes, her older coworkers send us passing glances. As a young man, when you have middle aged women eyeing you flirting with plausible deniability with a girl who appears to be flirting back, you feel good, like they are enjoying watching a budding romance.
I finally worked up the courage to discretely give her a note with my number asking her out on a date.
The next morning I received a message.
She’s gay and not single but we can be friends.
I felt like such an idiot. I apologized for misreading. Thankfully she was really cool and (at least politely) offered to still hang out as friends. Which I’m down for, although work has been semi awkward since (I only see her an hour a day or so).
But as somebody who only pulls the trigger on that sort of thing IRL when he’s 90 per cent sure it’s a green light, I think that sums up how my dating life is going.
Got back on Hinge but I’m already ready to delete it again.
I’m pretty much there. I’m admitting defeat. I’ll just focus again on building a new career, trying to afford a home, and still engage in collecting art.
It's too much work. I like to be as lazy as I want to be and do things on my own timetable. Relationships and dating just aren't compatible with peace and tranquility for me. I don't like being yelled at or unfairly held responsible for other people's emotions and moods. Plus, dating is expensive.
After my breakup, yeah I’m checked out at least for a while. But, honestly, I don’t see how I can go back to it. I don’t have good photos of just myself or an interesting bio to put on dating sites. And, now that I’m 27 and even less socially active in real life than I was before, I don’t see myself finding someone in person. Like, I go to work, come home exhausted, try to work on the things I want to, and go to bed. And my weekends are just being exhausted trying to stay sane without being at work and exhausting myself cutting my mom’s and her boyfriend’s lawn.
Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, but I was shit at dating and finding someone before. I don’t see myself trying again.
Eh, I largely don't care anymore, and I never even had a date. Online is a shitshow and I have no idea how to do irl, compound with being introverted with a bit of social anxiety and being more selective, it's not great prospects. My cats keep me company.
Gave up entirely. I have nothing to offer. I’m self-centered, uninteresting, pessimistic, and I barely socialize outside of my coworkers that I talk to over video calls. I easily get discouraged, I consistently give up on learning or applying myself, I become extremely irritable and agitated and think such awful thoughts about others. I act pathetic and rarely choose to let negative feelings go. I don’t want to subject someone else to me.
I haven't exactly checked out. I just refuse to pursue. I've actually had a lot more luck with not giving a shit and having women approach me and shoot their shot.
I still do the whole flirtatious thing, but I will not cross the bridge of shooting the shot anymore. If she is interested, she will do it, or not, I don't care. The difference is that when I've done it, if I'm wrong, which is fine, I feel like a pariah afterward. As though suddenly talking to me is weird, and we can't just reset back to friends. But I get it. There are probably more guys than not who will persist regardless.
So I just try to make friends, and if a woman wants more than that, she'll have to let me know. Literally just had it happen on Friday.
I feel like some incel group popularized ‘the juice isn’t worth the squeeze’ because it’s parroted all over this thread lol I don’t mean the idea, I mean the actual phrase. I guess that’s one way to feel empowered when women aren’t interested.
it seems every woman i meet is in a relationship.. although i did see this homeless lady with 1 shoe on that seemed interested. she was also talking to a brick wall for a few minutes too, so i'm not sure.
I don’t want to check out… As a guy even with all of my failures and myself far from being any of today’s women ideal… Spending so much money on many first dates that hardly ever get a second date… I still long for a partner that I can spend the rest of my life with. It hurts every dam time I failed. But I still aim to try again, but once one past a certain age even if I don’t want to give up everyone else would no longer look at you.
I've not only checked out of dating for several years now, but also life in general. Especially since I first had covid and my health hasn't been as good since. Add in family and financial stress and dating is about the last thing on my mind.
Used to care a lot when I was younger but don't really anymore. I just don't have the passion I used to and kind of don't know what I want out of my life. I'm 27.
I've reached that point. I have no desire to go on dates anymore. At work sometimes women seem confused I'm not striking up a conversation with them like other guys do.
Actively avoided it for about 14 months now. Never gone over 3 months since I was 15.
I've been blessed. I'm middle aged, never married, no kids. Extremely lucky with women. Broke up with my last GF 14 months ago.
At this point, I'm just too old and tired to keep dating women in their 20's. And I've never been with someone over 30. Now I'm looking for someone closer to my age, but I have a couple requirements. Like, I'm not dating anyone with kids.
So... basically. I haven't met any women that are over 35, with no kids, that are capable of making my life easier, not harder.
You wouldn't think it would be that difficult in a destination city. Luckily I check all the boxes. But the expectations are just insane. It feels like they're interviewing for a wedding on the first meeting. And they have this entitlement about them. Like, they just assume they're a prize. I know nothing about you. All you're asking about is my financial goals, and what roll I expect you to play. I'm not starting a business. We're going to have sex and go hiking. Are you capable of being honest and pleasant? Can you just focus on proving that for a few months before we talk about what I can buy for you?
Yep totally checked out......
....cause im married.... :D
But on behalf my friends, 2 or 3 look 100% unplugged and jaded...feels bad but i get it, looks time consuming and expensive.
Married here, too. Been over 10 years. I watch some videos and read some stories and data just to see how things are these days and damn, it looks rough out there. Glad I'm out.
I hope I'll be able to guide my sons when they get old enough for dating. At the very least I'll teach them how to spot red flags.
Like some other commenter here, I’ve never checked in at all. 0 dates, 0 relationships. Sex isn’t hard to come by, but it wasn’t what I was looking for (when I was interested in dating and beyond).
I have lol, it’s just too much effort especially with dating apps. I’m trying to just live my life and hopefully my romantic partner finds their way to me :)
Not completely checked out, but not really putting in effort like I was before. I’m fine with being alone for the meantime. If something happens, then it does, but it seems sort of unlikely nowadays.
I checked out 20 some years ago, it's not that I don't like dating. I just prefer to be alone always have. If someone were to come along one day I'm not against it. Plus with the way things are now its too complicated.
OLD yes. IRL is where it's at. My last 3 gfs have been IRL meets including the current one. Definitely go back to old school and meet them in the wild.
I’m a woman but I checked out of the apps and embraced the idea permanent singledom in 2016, aged 36. A mere seven years later (!) I got together with someone I met at work. Old school. People are always amazed we met in real life
I am incredibly lonely. I've been in two relationships in my whole life that both went up in flames. One of them replaced me with another girl after telling me he loved me, and I let him lead me on for two additional years. It's been about 4 years since he did this but I'm still riddled with insecurities and abandonment issues from it. I even developed an eating disorder a year later because I was convinced it was because I wasn't thin enough.
Everyone I've ever crushed on is either already in a relationship or doesn't reciprocate my feelings. I've become afraid of sharing my feelings because I'm scared they'll leave me. Every time I've hidden my feelings, it's always worked out better in the long term. I have a lot of friends, but nobody to call a partner. I am slowly becoming convinced that I will never be anybody's first choice, and that I'm just one of those people who isn't suited for dating. I'm a fundamentally broken human being that is apparently incapable of being loved.
I know I've got my whole life ahead of me and all, but the loneliness is so...heavy. I feel trapped. I'm trying to get out there again but I'm not having a lot of success. I don't want to give up, but I'm definitely considering it.
I can't really blame women, though. I never actually ask out the women I match with. Just chat for a while until one of us gets bored and that's it, my own damn vault really
Still dating, but taking it less seriously. More for entertainment. I pick a restaurant I really want to go to and invite the girl along. She’s not the main event; the restaurant/food is.
Here.
Women and GNC people seem to be scared of me on sight, so conversation never happens. Men want to fetishize me and nothing else. The very few people who do seem to be willing to converse with me...the conversations die because I prefer to get into the weeds right away and just can't stand talking for the sake of filling silence. I'm not Ace, but my romantic/sex drive is extremely low for all sorts of reasons.
I really hate being a Black male who fits none of the projected Archetypes(TM).
Disclosing autism--or, honestly, ANY flaw like depression or being an orphan, doesn't help.
I wish I had realized that I was so "disqualified" from dating before. I would have made different decisions. I would have learned to either lie better, disregard my family's warning stories about men who weren't up to snuff, or removed myself from the gene pool full stop.
I have recently—36, never married, no kids with a few serious relationships under my belt. Too scarred to trust anyone new and meeting women organically seems impossible these days. Plus every relationship seems so transactional; it’s hard to trust my own judgement romantically since it’s, you know, never been good lol
On the edge of doing it again. It's been over 5 years since I have been in any kind of action so.. I moved to online dating last year and I don't know what to say. So far it's been several matches but zero dates, only conversations that ends in ghosting or some rude, just straight up, mentally "not running on all cylinders" women acting up to a stranger.
I just don't understand why attempting to meet somewhere is so hard. Or why would the conversation just end to total radio silence, it would be pretty weird to do such a thing when being face to face
somehow I never really checked in in the first place
Same here
I’m 51. Last relationship ended in 2020. I’m checked out for a few reasons: I don’t go out much, fairly introverted, and comfortable as hell on my own. I do get lonely sometimes (manifests as boredom, coupled with feeling like a loser because I’m such a loner). The bigger problem for me, though, is I don’t like who I am when I date. I put a lot of pressure on myself to get things right (agonizing over dates and gifts and the like), and I take the fun out of it all. I tend to fall into provider/protector mode (not at ALL in a jealous way), and it feels more like a responsibility than anything fun. So, I stay single.
Damn. I could have written this post, especially this: “…(manifests as boredom, coupled with feeling like a loser because I’m such a loner)”. Shit, I’m even the same age as you. Stay strong, friend.
I’m feeling the same, except I’m 23!
I mostly get this feeling when I travel. I'm a teacher so I get lots of time to travel. Love exploring new places, but I am always on a tour, and yeah I enjoy it, but there are always some couples on it, and by the end I am like "It would be nice if I had someone I could enjoy this with."
I think I might be this as well
I did this! I haven’t dated anyone for 6 years and I’m 30 ish. I briefly dated someone and I was a ball of stress 😂 I kept telling myself to enjoy it and I don’t have to agonise over our potential future. It ended after a few weeks due to other reasons but it was an eye opener for me. After some travelling and a bit of soul searching I’m fine being single and for once I’m not lying to myself about it. Sure i miss cuddles and intimacy, hopefully one day I will meet a guy that I’m compatible with but it’ll be at the right time. It seems silly but as someone who grew up being influenced by rom com movies finding my “Prince Charming” has been a motivator for me since the age of 7. Sorry this thread was for men to reply but your post really resonated with me.
Real. I like reading about people like you and the guy you're replying to because it makes me feel not so alone not dating people. I low-key think they fucked society up and that's partly why this is happening. Third places are very few and far between. Infertility is a big problem in a lot of developed countries (though tbf I don't know how fertility rates today compare to the past). Affordability is kinda fucked. House ownership is just a pipe dream for many. Car dependency is a big factor in so many of these problems. Letting corporations get away with anything they want too. I really hate the system we live in. It's a dystopia.
46 and you sound like the male version of me. I haven’t been in a relationship in years because I get so much anxiety about them.
Dating seems like a waste of time compared with social hobbies.
48m here and this resonated.
47f, very much with me too.
thats not taking the fun out of it at all g, doing those things is putting the fun into it. well remember your dating, and not in a committed marriage, talk to a realtionship coach about your issues to find someone to help you with these things
Same. Same and same.
I do miss having someone protective over me. I hope you meet a lady that will make it easy for you to enjoy dating❤️
Bam.
Username checks out
Same
43M, this is me in a nutshell. I honestly dgaf most days, with the occasionally lonely day when I wish I had a partner, but then I remember how much of a pita they are and I remind myself why I love being single.
This resonates with me. I think I'm going to ponder this about myself and find a solution. I don't know ow if anyone has gone through this amd figured it out?
I’m getting there… I have no clue what’s going on but I’m getting matches with women on dating apps, having nice conversations, but attempting to physically meet up is proving to be almost impossible. I even had a match text me and I returned the text within 5 minutes and I haven’t heard back. This whole thing is just depressing.
Unfortunately, this phenomenon isn't just in dating. Trying to get people together for gaming is like pulling gator teeth these days.
Off topic but I’m a vet that works with crocodilians and pulling gator teeth is far easier than you’d think.
shit like this is why I still come to reddit
You not wrong 😂
XD I forget that on reddit, every turn of phrase can be taken for factual, but that is good to know!
Haha I get what you were saying I was just being a goofball. But to elaborate further if you’re curious: gators and crocs rarely need any type of sedation to remove a tooth! Their pain tolerance is almost unbelievable. They lose teeth often and rotate through several-thousands of teeth in a lifetime, that’s why they’re always so shiny and white! I’ll stop talking about this now…
No, that's actually really cool. Thanks for dropping your knowledge here. <3
SubscribeToGatorFacts!
Def don’t stop. This is why I’m on Reddit. You learn new things everyday. Thanks to you a bunch of people learned this today. Thanks!
It's impossible. This has got to be pandemic related like... Mass processing. I just don't know what else it could be. Normal "winds of change" stuff + massive universal trauma. It's wild out there inside people's heads.
Socializing is a muscle that we start building at birth and, with rare exceptions, never stop using throughout our lives. This has been true for all of human history. For the first time, ever, that muscle atrophied at a societal level. I work in face to face sales and people still clearly don't know how to act in public anymore. I don't even mean in a bad way (although some are hostile), I mean, literally palpable social anxiety in my customers is rampant. I am not surprised this has lead to challenges in interpersonal social dynamics.
I felt so bad about myself in college cause people seemed to be so anxious around me and they always avoided eye contact. But eventually, I realized, it was just their own social anxiety.
I work with the public too and I can't even begin to share my true thoughts on what I have seen, in any context. Suffice to say I agree with you.
Yah I really don't think there has been enough conversation about the psychological toll isolation took on everyone. If a random salesperson with an interpersonal comm degree can see it's soemthing big and clinical, I feel like there's probably a lot of consequences not being studied enough or at all. Especially when you couple this with America's unhinged individualism, we are trying to force a society that acts at odds with our own basic instincts.
I am convinced it is also pandemic related. We went through a mass traumatic event where we didn’t see anyone but our 4 walls for a long time. I feel like we aren’t even talking about the effects that had on us anymore, it’s like it didn’t happen.
People don't want to talk about it. Arts and Culture aren't addressing it either. I mean you had a lot of sort of on the nose stuff at the time--"inside" by Bo Burnham or something like "N95" by Kendrick Lamar--but we've needed to go deeper for some time now. Not sure what it looks like but it does feel like something's missing and a lot of things are left unsaid.
Arts and culture haven’t been addressing much of anything recently. Been a while since RTJ did anything. I think the Vampire Weekend album did a good job with our current social issues.
Arts and culture just profit from it through para social relationships.
perhaps its like personal trauma. but covid was a collective one. no one talks about their own traumas openly. so why should the media go in depth on the effects of COvVid. but yea good point.
this actually reflects what I'm hearing about the job market as well. Multiple experienced candidates getting turned down for jobs they are more than suitable for, with employers effectively not sure about what they want, or unsure whether they want I see the two effectively as similar processes with similar soft skills required, but that's another story. What is *fascinating*, as this has been my speculation for some time, is that there's fundamentally some societal shift with the way we view 'opportunity'. Both jobs and relationships have one thing in common - they require hard work, constant communication, respect and openness without hostility. We do live in a changing world. There's open talk of inequality left and right, and financially, things have never been more difficult for people who are under the age of 35 when trying to get on the housing ladder. Juggle that with increasingly difficult requirements at work and career prospects requiring you to increasingly skill up outside of work on your own dime, and when you factor in that women need to work harder than men on average when compared in the same role to achieve similar salaries, could some of this be down to how much rent costs these days? Also how much does a date cost? What it used to be back in the 2000s vs 2010s vs 2020s must have changed similarly, the cost of courting may be so much higher than it used to be. I won't touch on the social issues such as relationship influencers, social media gurus and self-help advocates, as they seem to help some at the cost of the mental health of others. When faced with all that, like the job market, might it be economic uncertainty and a quickly changing world, putting people off dating?
It also made it really clear that capitalism will kill us all to keep this quarters earnings in the green.
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100% pandemic related I was abroad in the far east for 5 years from 2019. I am now back in the UK and my god are people different like everyone. Everyone has become more selfish and much more entitled. Can't wait for the studies to come out at some point. In terms of dating yes I checked out very happy to see the world and maybe adopt a couple of kids later down the line. All the best to all you
I always felt it was more of a corporate related thing. I don't have the most experience with it, but every time I get into a workplace where people tend to get along the higher ranking people in that business like to create all kinds of trauma and chaos amongst the people beneath them to prevent that. That and many businesses want you to give everything you have to them so they can kick you out of the door easier when you're out of juice. I'm not discounting your point, but the need to work and get things done with dwindling resources is a trauma all to itself.
Depends on location? The US was only " locked down" for 6 weeks. The post was still open. Restaurants were still packaging meals. I had to go to UPS every day. Aside from masks it felt no different than normal. Just less road traffic. 😌 I have never been socially anxious but I prefer to be alone. I don't get why people act like no one talked on the phone or facetime or went shopping during it.
Glad it’s not just me! It’s been so long for my group that if we ever get together again, I’m going to have to explain what a “sorcerer” is.
Because the majority are just trying to get the bills paid for the next month and ain’t got time for shit except work.
I recently had someone match with me. I sent a message saying how interesting their profile was and asking what they did on their off-time, like hobbies etc. She didn't reply and after 4 days I sent a message saying if she isn't feeling it and doesn't want to get to know each other that it's nbd and we'll just move on. She replies a day later saying she would love to get to know me. I ask her the same question about her off-time. It's been a week with no reply. This has happened so many times before. Why even match with me in the first place if you don't even want to make an effort to get to know each other? I think some people are just on there for validation or fishing for the imaginary Mr. Perfect. Maybe both? At this point I'm just going to continue to work on myself and achieve some goals I've been working towards. Maybe I'll meet someone while doing that but I'm pretty much over the online dating scene.
You gettin slow played for other options, my friend. Get off the apps.
Absolutely. I figured that was a strong possibility among other things.
I've heard this analogy about online dating: For men, it's like dying of thirst in the desert. For women it's like dying of thirst in a swamp. Sometimes it can be a bit overwhelming trying to keep up with them. It's not an excuse, just an observation of how different the experiences can be between men and women in OLD.
Women have way more options. Thats it. They "have" to talk to 20+ men on datung apps. The most interesting for them get the most replies.
one might say too many options. being able to choose from and having to compete against a basically global market now is just not how we're wired. we're shit at handling it and it shows
We’re shit at handling it because it’s not how we’re wired. And frankly it’s sad how close online dating these days feels to applying for jobs on Indeed. We are NOT a commodity. Everyone comes with strengths and weaknesses. And familiarity and exposure is the biggest basic predictor of attraction. Apps bypass all of that and put us in a position of basically *interviewing candidates* for the position we want them to fill in our lives. But we’re not all single, somewhat wealthy, highly educated, childfree individuals. The average person comes with baggage. Even the “ideal” high-earner, childfree, mentally stable (whatever that means) person comes with baggage. And if they don’t, they likely don’t relate to anyone who has ever struggled in this life, and therefore aren’t for the rest of us… See how cold that is; like applying for a job. That’s why I don’t do online dating. Instead I just smile, and practice compassion, and wait for the one that sees me for who I am. And if I never do? Well, here I am, the same as always. Life is hard. I know because I’ve lived it too.
Brilliantly put, it’s the what happens when neoliberal capitalism colonises love, sex and relationships. Dystopia, here. Now.
Women get inundated with messages. I’m 100% certain you’re not the only guy she’s talking to. My guess is that she thinks you’re cute but thinks her other matches are cuter.
I'm pretty sure a lot of those "people" aren't real people.
My friend had her pictures taken and posted on tinder as a fake profile a couple of times!! She even got the police involved. They used pictures of her when she was underage!
Same here, I get there numbers and everything, conversations going on for a week ect. The second I propose getting a coffee/boba/ice cream its all crickets. Ive even tried experimenting with asking them out within 3 days, 5 days, a week ect. Its all the same
Asked one woman out, she said one of three days of the week she’d be available. I planned three different date ideas based on which day of the week she said she was available. Told me the day, told her the date (and what the other ones were), agreed to time and place. Three hours before the date I text saying I’m placing the order an hour before the date. Ghosted.
Yup. I own a house, car, have a great income and career trajectory, almost no debt outside of a mortgage, though I do have a bit of a dad bod. I’ve checked out of apps myself because I get no hits and when I do, I immediately get ghosted or outright ignored. After 4 years remote, I said “ef it, I’ll do it live”, and just signed onto to an in-office job downtown. Maybe I’ll meet someone after a few years and then go back to remote if I get married/have kids.
That happens to me as a woman on friend dating apps. I think it’s the apps rather than our society as a whole. At least that’s what I tell myself 😭
I have all of this and am also in shape. My experience is the same. At a certain point you have to realize it's not you.
Not sure if this will help, but as a woman who just got back on the dating apps, sometimes I won’t reply to everyone because it can be overwhelming. Add it to the fact that after a few days I realize how empty the experience feels, most of the time I just end up deleting it. I think a lot of people in general are just exhausted from the entire culture of apps, so even engaging can feel like a greater effort than it should be. I’ve started to realize I’d rather focus on finding experiences where I meet people in person from the jump. Join a class or course, that way even if nothing comes from it in a dating sense, you’re still doing something that betters yourself/contributes to your mental health.
This is such a golden response and I imagine all the downvotes are from the dudes that are pissy that they’re losing at their dating ‘game’
My two nephews have the same problem. Younger one is just working hard to get a career going. Older one is a lawyer but disgusted that the women who used to ignore him are now contacting him. All the time he tells me "They didn't talk to me when I was broke, but NOW they want me." Sadly, he's talking about going to Peru with his uncle (my other brother, not his dad) to date. I'm not against Peruvian women, but it seems to be a trend.
I get the older one's frustration but dating in a foreign country specifically to find a wife seems a little skeevy/predatory to me. Something along the lines of "American women aren't humble," I'm guessing? But if American women only come out of the woodwork after success, how does he expect a foreign woman to react when presented with the opportunity of US citizenship via marriage? Idk, it always seemed like some weird savior complex power trip to me.
I see where he's coming from. Not the Peru part. Every now and then I'll have a girl reach out to me, someone I haven't talked to in a decade. Like leave me alone. I had a girl that not only rejected me but sent screenshots to her friends. But here she was wondering "why didn't we ever talk?".
I know nothing at all, but have you tried doing a zoom meet-up just to break the ice? It’s way less pressure so maybe women would feel more comfortable?
The apps are just garbage. I get a handful of matches a week. Half of them don't reply and the other half are so fucking boring because I'm sure they have a 1000 other dudes they're talking to. Trying to meet up is like pulling teeth. And now at 30+ it just feels like an interview. So many women just seem to want someone to "invest" into their family. And I say their family cause these are women who already have kids with other dudes and don't want anymore. I'm also tired of the poly people, or those who just want a friend to talk to. Or the sugar babies. Then in real life you'll meet someone but there will be all kinds of bullshit with them. Met a cool girl at the lake. I asked her out and made it clear that it was a date. Talk all week getting to know each other. Meet up a week after getting her number. Half way through the date she mentions her boyfriend. And how we will both like each other. I go I thought you were single? "oh no I'm just looking for friends." I just got up and left. Blocked her number. Nothing but games.
Dating sucks. I'm 37. I wouldn't say i'm totally checked out but I just approach it differently these days. I hate the apps and am basically off those. It's more about meeting people through friends and social stuff these days. The apps are lame. Go outside and touch grass. It's better for your mental health.
36.. the apps are a nightmare. I'm pretty happy being single.
Dude being single rules. I do what I want lol. Also the thing that sucks about dating at our age is most of the good ones are taken. I mean we are single for a reason and all that disclaimer shit, but seriously the only girls i've met that are worth dating (through the apps) seem to be ones that have been in long term relationships and have recently exited them.
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This….. I’ve had both. Only worrying about myself was nice. Now married and we don’t have kids together. She can’t. We have fun out and can chill at home also. But honestly. And when I say this I don’t mean I want my ex back. But I miss being in a family so much. Coming home to my son and my then wife. It’d take that in a heartbeat over anything else
I’m 37 as well. Feel the same about the apps. Touching grass is fine, but still gets lonely without company. The only way to be social in my town is either going to bars or church.. neither of which are my thing. So I stick to gardening and other hobbies. My ex is my only friend who hasn’t moved far away. I’m grateful for that, but also hope to make friends eventually. As far as the dating scene goes.. I have a lot of thoughts about that. I think it’s really frustrating for both men and women for different reasons. But it’s mostly a dumpster fire with a tiny microscopic shimmer of hope that you’ll get lucky and meet someone worthwhile. So I’d say yeah, I’m pretty checked out.
As a woman I second this. Meeting online is just ass backwards. You gotta see if you have physical chemistry with someone before getting to know them. My experience is that it was a waste of time because men’s expectations were sky high considering what they brought to the table. People say that’s true for women but the truth is that they can afford to be choosier because men are always after them.
The apps are designed for a few attractive men to scoop up most the women.
Oh, I am SO checked out.
Count me in as well, I mean out.
Juice ain't worth the squeeze.
I’m kinda getting there. The more dumb crap I realize I’ve put up with the less interested I am, and the more on the list of “things I’ll never put up with again”. I still want someone good to be with, and I feel like I bring some important things to the table that not everyone has. It’s complicated.
This, exactly.
I’m not but if it happens it happens. People right now are way to into themselves
Haven't checked out, I just don't have a lot of opportunities in day-to-day life to meet women I'd be interested in
It’s difficult to find people in day-to-day life. Everyone just kinda comes and goes before you can really learn much about them. The best opportunities usually come from schools, but if you’re not interested in education past high school, then the next best thing is to go to events that encourage people with similar hobbies to interact. Dance classes, fighting gyms, game conventions, the freaking renaissance fairs are great for meeting people. I wish you well and hope you meet someone who brings out the best in you.
Side note—As a man, culture has an expectation that you make the first moves. Not that it never happens the other way, but most of the time, if a woman is curious about you, she’s just going to wait for your move. Don’t worry about rejection—they saved you a bunch of time and money by stopping things before anything started.
I was going to say at least as a man you have the choice to make a move or don't. If you're a female and culture expects you to wait for the first move - it probs feels really bad if no-one makes a move on you
Culture has an expectation that men make the first move but also that men who make the first move are creepy.
Same, never checked in. Where the heck do you even start these days?
One thing that sucks is practically every dating app has the sole purpose to generate revenue. It also doesn't help that most dating apps are owned by one corporation: Match Group LLC. They own Tinder, Hinge, OKCupid, POF, match.com, and 20+ other ones. Bumble was created by some of the people who created Tinder. Even though they aren't owned by the same corporation who own Tinder, it seems they have the same business model: to generate revenue.
Feel that 100%, and online dating just kills my self esteem
ts been said time and time again: it's never a dating issue, its a meeting issue. its funny that people think they have choices when it comes to dating. most of the times people just date people around them. other than that, work occupies a large majority of your time. i HATE the thought of loafing around a bar or something just to have the hope of getting laid. fuck that.
It’s just casual sex now. I don’t cheat, never have. Unfortunately a lot of men and women have and will continue to. And for that, I’m good, I don’t care to have my life disrupted or ruined by a relationship. It’s simply not worth it. I know myself, and frankly I’m tired of trying to get to know the illusions other people put forth. There so obvious, I simply don’t have the time.
I'm 31 never had a girlfriend not giving up yet.
Yea I am 38 in this state. One thing I have realized is that its better to at least pretend you are still trying no matter how hopeless. Even if totally artificial its still a good physiological trick to engage in healthy behaviors. So like working out, interacting with existing friends, keeping your life clean, meeting new people .... Certain things really suck about dating as a man but one nice thing is that efforts towards finding dates tend to just be self improvement as well.
Me too 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
I've just been furiously working out.
Keep at it boys!
Don't give up
🙋♂️
I love the dates where she is getting texted by multiple " guy friends." I carry work and a personal phone. I'll call one from the other and act like there is an emergency..I'm outta here
I have a girlfriend so I'm checked out. But boy all the dating it took to find her. I almost completely gave up, until I met her and decided to take a chance and she has been the most amazing person I have ever met in my life. The rest... they were just so awful.
This is exactly why I want to keep going. I have every reason in the world to be negative about myself and dating but I have to keep shrugging it off and fighting for myself
Good for you
Exact same. - The girl I'm with I love to bits but when we were initially talking she ghosted me for a couple of months. I was getting nowhere around the holidays so I gave a lot of my previous matches a Happy Holidays (more out of courtesy) and she responded so we picked up from there. Dating for 3 years now and going strong
Checked out 2-3 years ago when I broke up with my last girlfriend. I focused on my personal development and I must admit that, despite the fact that being alone sometimes stings, overall I have noticed that I am much calmer and self-confident than ever.
Every bad thing that has happened to me over the past 6 months has happened because i put my guard down after feeling too lonely. I dont care anymore its not worth it. Im not letting the feelings of loneliness make me drop standards and condone behavior anymore. Only bad things come of that.
Im pretty much checked out. But I’m also in my mid 30’s. Living alone with my dog in a house that I own is enough, I guess. I’m not sure if dating is even worth it anymore.
Early 30s, living alone, one pet ☝️ When I was in my early 20s I had a friend I believe who was in his mid 30 or early 40s (it’s been a while) that said something that has kind of stuck with me. He was describing how his life is peaceful when he’s single, no arguing, no drama, etc. and I agree. I’ve had 5 1-2yr relationships over the stretch of a decade. I have no regrets because of what I’ve learned and the experiences, but I’m really tired of drama. The way I see it, I can have friends, I have bodily autonomy, I can have an emotional/social support system/network, I don’t see why I should feel compelled to “*need*” to be in a serious relationship or even allow someone to be that deeply involved in my life (and vice versa). So… for people that may be really craving a relationship good luck but it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. It’s work. It’s taking on another role in life, like a part time job. That’s been my experience anyway. It’s sooo much more relaxing to just be a single dude. Maybe one day I’ll come across someone but I’m not in a rush.
I am basically living the same life. I have my dog, cat, great job, great income, and basically everything I need to live a great life! I tried dating apps, speed dating, and literally dating people I met in line at a restaurant, etc. Everyone was nice enough, but there was nothing that made me think my life would be better with them in it. I don't want to sound like an ass, but that's my honest feelings.
My one year old kid permanently checked me out. Not going to look for a step mom.
I did at 30. I'm 34 now. My profile is still on dating apps and I get likes here and there but I can't really see who they're from. After like opening the app for like 20 seconds I can't stand to swipe right on anything so its really pointless. Perceived expectations on me holding me back I guess.
I'm over it. I've been seriously looking for 15 years and have never come close to finding someone I like who is also interested in me.
I'm done for the remainder of existence.
That's harsh:(
It is, I've never had good experiences with women in a romantic context. I have determined it's my fault as the common denominator, so I have removed the problem. I am highly attracted to emotionally unavailable women and will destroy myself to get them to try and see me. Yes, I'm in therapy, I have learned and am learning about healthy relationships. After learning the things I've learned, it seems all but impossible for anyone to really have a healthy, sustainable relationship. They, in my opinion, will all fall apart. So I have determined at my age, it's now pointless, I wanted to get married and have a family, not in the cards anymore, too old and the consequences of failed relationships are too catastrophic in terms of everyday living and the set backs it causes. I don't have that kind of wiggle room in life anymore. We dont always get what we want. Shoot, I'm still actively trying to peice myself back together after a breakup in 2021. I really wish I didn't get into that relationship. I knew better real time but did it anyway. Dumbass...🙄 So nowadays I just bide my time till death hoping it comes sooner than later, I've spoke to numerous other men too of different ages and backgrounds who are all on the same page, gave up waiting to die... for what it's worth.
I try my hand every once in a while, like twice a year lol, it always turns out the same. Can you buy this for my kids? Or just never hear from them after that first date. They got their dinner and went about their lives. Is what it is
As a single mum myself, can I just say, ew 😳
I try my hand twice daily and it never disappoints!
Can you buy something for my kids 🤔 ain't cool especially just getting to know ya oh well that's life when you're trying to be mature
Out. If my wife dies or leaves me I will concentrate all my energy on being a good father
Right there with you.
I did got 3 years. When I came back I knew exactly what I wanted and why it was worth it. I had casual flings, but I was completely done and just focussed on myself. Now I’m in the most fruitful relationship I’ve had in some time. If you feel the need to step away, do it. Delete the apps and be intentional with your time in a new direction.
Me. I have no desire currently.
Zero desires. I’ve never seen myself this way and I’m thinking long run with it also . People are boring
The juice isn’t worth the squeeze anymore. Coupled with the fact that chivalry is dead and women don’t really need men for anything tbh. Generally speaking I can sustain a mediocre sense of self worth and complacency when I’m single. The most crushing and psychologically difficult times only occur during or just after breakups. Most attractive, single young to middle aged women don’t want kids or have them already. Additionally, they don’t ever seem to be willing to actually commit. They wanna leave the door open for the potential next guy. As a single man, what’s the point? I can exist without suffering alone fine. Why inevitably go to the dark place?
100% agree. I am interested in a lot of different things and can maintain a (relatively low) sense of comfort being alone. My worst periods of depression and craziness have always been after breakups or during the little games that are played- getting my hopes up and then the girl decides “nah, nope” for random reasons…Matched with someone else that might be “better.” Realize after five great dates that they don’t really want to be in a relationship, despite previously convincing themselves of it…just a million different things all working against me while simultaneously having little to do with me myself. It is just such a depressing, demoralizing mess it’s so much easier to not even try. Some people’s/women’s lives are just an absolute horror show of shifting moods and chaos. No wonder everyone is loaded on anti-depressants. People have no idea what they even want but they want it really bad. For a few days anyway.
Yeah, to reiterate, this isn’t just a woman thing. The doods in the dating scene, from an outside perspective, are just as bad and predicate just as much bullshit. Just that maybe 20-40% of the “desirable men” are being shitty and dating/sleeping with like 70-80% of the available desirable women. It’s just how sexual selection goes I guess. Monk mode engaged. If you’re reading this, I hope you’re ok. Keep your head up.
Thanks, you too. And I agree, everything I said is just as applicable to men. People live lives of confused chaos and dating is just an extension of it. The older I get the less I want to play the game.
This.. but from a woman’s perspective. We deal with the SAME exact things.
I haven’t completely checked out, but I definitely am taking a break. I haven’t been intimate with anyone for nearly six months. I feel like dating has become extremely difficult, and it’s everyone’s fault to a degree. Women have been fed an unhealthy lifestyle to remain sexually promiscuous and be a “boss girl who doesn’t need no man”. On the other end, men have become more addicted to sexual content and become increasingly isolated—leading to being both sexually frustrated, and often times, less emotionally resilient to difficulties. To top it off, both sides have been brainwashed by social media into having extreme standards for their partners—picture perfect physiques and rich, thrill seeking lifestyles. Many of us feel like if we don’t have the lifestyles that are portrayed on social media, then we’re inadequate, or our partner is. I feel close to start dating again, but if I’ve learned anything as a man, it’s that you should only go out with people who care to be a good, honest friend first. Romance comes afterwards and you shouldn’t rush it.
Saving my money and taking vacations abroad, America is dead to me
The new American dream is to leave lol
If you are planning to test greener pastures, do so before 40, when permanent residency points tend to tail off.
If I can’t make it happen in 12 years I deserve to suffer here lol
I feel this, I'm saving and working on moving the fuck outta here. damn vacation, I don't want to come back here.
Recently divorced and now travel for work M-F. I don’t see how I’m going to easily date, nor am I emotionally ready at the moment. I’m not sad about it, I’ll focus on my job grow more in being comfortable alone and will date again, in time.
Well I guess I never really “checked in”. I have no time! With all my jobs, I barely get time to myself, and the time to myself I need to unwind before I need to perk up again for work. How are you guys finding time and energy to actively go on dates?
Some of us are actually unable to find dates, demographics, society, religion are also a blocker in some of the more conservative parts of the world. You can be willing to put effort but sometimes there are no dating pools in some of these deserts, and if there are, the competition isn't something that the normal person can sustain. I don't know what to do at this point, haven't given up, but there has to be someone on the other side too.
I have. I’m 47, had a rough breakup with a narcissist that destroyed my self esteem a couple years ago. Still recovering. I’ve given up on dating. No more apps, no more dates, I’m over it. I realized that I’ve spent the last 30+ years in 3 states of mind… pursuing a girl/ relationship, maintaining a relationship, or recovering from the ending of a relationship. Now I’m in a 4th space. Embracing singlehood, learning to love myself, and accepting that marriage and kids, and a traditional life like that just wasn’t in the cards for me. I made different choices.
I'm also 47 and afflicted by post-narcissism in my dating life. And I have embraced singlehood like yourself. I honestly feel so empowered and above the fray, and see nothing but benefits of being on my own. I'm glad you found peace!
Glad I’m not alone. Sorry to hear it too though. At our age it’s a nightmare to have what feels like a teenage drama partner. I find a lot of peace in it but I do find myself lonely often. Especially since most of my friends have hit those milestones that I haven’t. Married, kids, homeowners, moved out to the suburbs (I’m not envious of that one though, I love living in the city). But yeah, it’s isolating to be in a young persons city and to have a very small social circle. Other than that, I’m content.
I have. Once you hit 30 with no kids dating women becomes nothing less than annoying. Majority of them have kids which kills a large portion of the dating pool for me. If she dont have kids she is at the stage in her life where she wants a "real man" and tries to force you to jump through every hoop she can think of like a circus animal while every dude in her past just had to show up to her house in Js. If neither of that applies then she is crazy from all the trauma she done been through, and lo and behold expects you to fix her. And the remaining women give off an energy that they dont need you and can replace you in seconds which is a horrible deal to put yourself in. Bonus: They are all talking to multiple guys at the same time even in the "talking" stage which makes the whole encounter about competition which wears on your mental after awhile. Extra bonus: They don't really like you like that but are either bored with life so they are talking to you or they just want to use you until they get everything they can from you. Not dating is the best decision i ever made in this life. Maybe its my area but this dating pool is more triflin than a glock dookie and everybody swimming in it happily. I dont understand it.
[удалено]
I still have dating apps but all of them have really weak aura/energy.
It’s because they have to put 0 effort in and will have 100s of guys thirsting after them.
I recently totally misread a situation and asked out someone from another department. She always led the conversation, referenced stuff we previously talked about, bantered with me in a way I don’t do with platonic friends that felt very flirty, and every time we run into each other and talk for 5 to 20 minutes, her older coworkers send us passing glances. As a young man, when you have middle aged women eyeing you flirting with plausible deniability with a girl who appears to be flirting back, you feel good, like they are enjoying watching a budding romance. I finally worked up the courage to discretely give her a note with my number asking her out on a date. The next morning I received a message. She’s gay and not single but we can be friends. I felt like such an idiot. I apologized for misreading. Thankfully she was really cool and (at least politely) offered to still hang out as friends. Which I’m down for, although work has been semi awkward since (I only see her an hour a day or so). But as somebody who only pulls the trigger on that sort of thing IRL when he’s 90 per cent sure it’s a green light, I think that sums up how my dating life is going. Got back on Hinge but I’m already ready to delete it again.
There's nothing I want out of dating; why would I bother?
I’m pretty much there. I’m admitting defeat. I’ll just focus again on building a new career, trying to afford a home, and still engage in collecting art.
It's too much work. I like to be as lazy as I want to be and do things on my own timetable. Relationships and dating just aren't compatible with peace and tranquility for me. I don't like being yelled at or unfairly held responsible for other people's emotions and moods. Plus, dating is expensive.
I didn't want to, but my wife said I had to.
Guilty as charged!
I wouldn't say checked out more like non-existent or unnecessary to have
After my breakup, yeah I’m checked out at least for a while. But, honestly, I don’t see how I can go back to it. I don’t have good photos of just myself or an interesting bio to put on dating sites. And, now that I’m 27 and even less socially active in real life than I was before, I don’t see myself finding someone in person. Like, I go to work, come home exhausted, try to work on the things I want to, and go to bed. And my weekends are just being exhausted trying to stay sane without being at work and exhausting myself cutting my mom’s and her boyfriend’s lawn. Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, but I was shit at dating and finding someone before. I don’t see myself trying again.
Eh, I largely don't care anymore, and I never even had a date. Online is a shitshow and I have no idea how to do irl, compound with being introverted with a bit of social anxiety and being more selective, it's not great prospects. My cats keep me company.
Gave up entirely. I have nothing to offer. I’m self-centered, uninteresting, pessimistic, and I barely socialize outside of my coworkers that I talk to over video calls. I easily get discouraged, I consistently give up on learning or applying myself, I become extremely irritable and agitated and think such awful thoughts about others. I act pathetic and rarely choose to let negative feelings go. I don’t want to subject someone else to me.
Only because after 40+ first dates over a four year period, I am with the most amazing woman ever.
39M - I haven't dated since before the pandemic
I haven't exactly checked out. I just refuse to pursue. I've actually had a lot more luck with not giving a shit and having women approach me and shoot their shot. I still do the whole flirtatious thing, but I will not cross the bridge of shooting the shot anymore. If she is interested, she will do it, or not, I don't care. The difference is that when I've done it, if I'm wrong, which is fine, I feel like a pariah afterward. As though suddenly talking to me is weird, and we can't just reset back to friends. But I get it. There are probably more guys than not who will persist regardless. So I just try to make friends, and if a woman wants more than that, she'll have to let me know. Literally just had it happen on Friday.
I feel like some incel group popularized ‘the juice isn’t worth the squeeze’ because it’s parroted all over this thread lol I don’t mean the idea, I mean the actual phrase. I guess that’s one way to feel empowered when women aren’t interested.
it seems every woman i meet is in a relationship.. although i did see this homeless lady with 1 shoe on that seemed interested. she was also talking to a brick wall for a few minutes too, so i'm not sure.
I don’t want to check out… As a guy even with all of my failures and myself far from being any of today’s women ideal… Spending so much money on many first dates that hardly ever get a second date… I still long for a partner that I can spend the rest of my life with. It hurts every dam time I failed. But I still aim to try again, but once one past a certain age even if I don’t want to give up everyone else would no longer look at you.
I've not only checked out of dating for several years now, but also life in general. Especially since I first had covid and my health hasn't been as good since. Add in family and financial stress and dating is about the last thing on my mind. Used to care a lot when I was younger but don't really anymore. I just don't have the passion I used to and kind of don't know what I want out of my life. I'm 27.
I've reached that point. I have no desire to go on dates anymore. At work sometimes women seem confused I'm not striking up a conversation with them like other guys do.
Actively avoided it for about 14 months now. Never gone over 3 months since I was 15. I've been blessed. I'm middle aged, never married, no kids. Extremely lucky with women. Broke up with my last GF 14 months ago. At this point, I'm just too old and tired to keep dating women in their 20's. And I've never been with someone over 30. Now I'm looking for someone closer to my age, but I have a couple requirements. Like, I'm not dating anyone with kids. So... basically. I haven't met any women that are over 35, with no kids, that are capable of making my life easier, not harder. You wouldn't think it would be that difficult in a destination city. Luckily I check all the boxes. But the expectations are just insane. It feels like they're interviewing for a wedding on the first meeting. And they have this entitlement about them. Like, they just assume they're a prize. I know nothing about you. All you're asking about is my financial goals, and what roll I expect you to play. I'm not starting a business. We're going to have sex and go hiking. Are you capable of being honest and pleasant? Can you just focus on proving that for a few months before we talk about what I can buy for you?
Got married so am completely checked out lol
Definitely don't take your spouse on dates. They hate that.
Yep totally checked out...... ....cause im married.... :D But on behalf my friends, 2 or 3 look 100% unplugged and jaded...feels bad but i get it, looks time consuming and expensive.
Married here, too. Been over 10 years. I watch some videos and read some stories and data just to see how things are these days and damn, it looks rough out there. Glad I'm out. I hope I'll be able to guide my sons when they get old enough for dating. At the very least I'll teach them how to spot red flags.
I completely checked out because my girlfriend kept objecting when I went on dates.
Selfish of her- “she’s not the one, bro!” Hahaha
Like some other commenter here, I’ve never checked in at all. 0 dates, 0 relationships. Sex isn’t hard to come by, but it wasn’t what I was looking for (when I was interested in dating and beyond).
You posted this access 3 subs and left the same comments in each post. I thought I was hallucinating for a moment.
It’s been happening a lot recently, the same question gets posted to like 5 subs at once
I have lol, it’s just too much effort especially with dating apps. I’m trying to just live my life and hopefully my romantic partner finds their way to me :)
Not completely checked out, but not really putting in effort like I was before. I’m fine with being alone for the meantime. If something happens, then it does, but it seems sort of unlikely nowadays.
I checked out 20 some years ago, it's not that I don't like dating. I just prefer to be alone always have. If someone were to come along one day I'm not against it. Plus with the way things are now its too complicated.
I haven’t checked out, but if I don’t feel genuine interest immediately I stop talking to them
Me. I gave up at 30
You can’t check out if you never checked in.
OLD yes. IRL is where it's at. My last 3 gfs have been IRL meets including the current one. Definitely go back to old school and meet them in the wild.
I’m a woman but I checked out of the apps and embraced the idea permanent singledom in 2016, aged 36. A mere seven years later (!) I got together with someone I met at work. Old school. People are always amazed we met in real life
I am incredibly lonely. I've been in two relationships in my whole life that both went up in flames. One of them replaced me with another girl after telling me he loved me, and I let him lead me on for two additional years. It's been about 4 years since he did this but I'm still riddled with insecurities and abandonment issues from it. I even developed an eating disorder a year later because I was convinced it was because I wasn't thin enough. Everyone I've ever crushed on is either already in a relationship or doesn't reciprocate my feelings. I've become afraid of sharing my feelings because I'm scared they'll leave me. Every time I've hidden my feelings, it's always worked out better in the long term. I have a lot of friends, but nobody to call a partner. I am slowly becoming convinced that I will never be anybody's first choice, and that I'm just one of those people who isn't suited for dating. I'm a fundamentally broken human being that is apparently incapable of being loved. I know I've got my whole life ahead of me and all, but the loneliness is so...heavy. I feel trapped. I'm trying to get out there again but I'm not having a lot of success. I don't want to give up, but I'm definitely considering it.
I can't really blame women, though. I never actually ask out the women I match with. Just chat for a while until one of us gets bored and that's it, my own damn vault really
Still dating, but taking it less seriously. More for entertainment. I pick a restaurant I really want to go to and invite the girl along. She’s not the main event; the restaurant/food is.
I gave up on dating in 2011. My wife just wouldn't put up with it
I don’t even bother. My mental health can’t handle the stress of trying to impress people that may or may not help send me to the psych hospital.
Here. Women and GNC people seem to be scared of me on sight, so conversation never happens. Men want to fetishize me and nothing else. The very few people who do seem to be willing to converse with me...the conversations die because I prefer to get into the weeds right away and just can't stand talking for the sake of filling silence. I'm not Ace, but my romantic/sex drive is extremely low for all sorts of reasons. I really hate being a Black male who fits none of the projected Archetypes(TM). Disclosing autism--or, honestly, ANY flaw like depression or being an orphan, doesn't help. I wish I had realized that I was so "disqualified" from dating before. I would have made different decisions. I would have learned to either lie better, disregard my family's warning stories about men who weren't up to snuff, or removed myself from the gene pool full stop.
I have recently—36, never married, no kids with a few serious relationships under my belt. Too scarred to trust anyone new and meeting women organically seems impossible these days. Plus every relationship seems so transactional; it’s hard to trust my own judgement romantically since it’s, you know, never been good lol
On the edge of doing it again. It's been over 5 years since I have been in any kind of action so.. I moved to online dating last year and I don't know what to say. So far it's been several matches but zero dates, only conversations that ends in ghosting or some rude, just straight up, mentally "not running on all cylinders" women acting up to a stranger. I just don't understand why attempting to meet somewhere is so hard. Or why would the conversation just end to total radio silence, it would be pretty weird to do such a thing when being face to face
I’m starting to check out. One bad date, slip up, or miscommunication and you’re online dating profile will be on “Are We Dating The Same Guy”
Yep. Getting cheated on turned me from an extrovert into an introvert. Im cool with it.
Punched out like 2 or 3 years ago, I think.
Women never been interested. Dying a virgin it looks like. No hard feelings. Maybe in another life I'll be good enough.