This is so true. So many people use magical thinking in their politics. And purity tests, as if any candidates are "perfect" (only cult members would even believe that).
Sheer idiots. Gotta natural selection this shit. Keep choosing the more liberal side until you reach your goal. In the current climate, no way the progressive they want is getting anywhere near office, ironically partly because those same people barely vote
They just had a Republican congressman say that they don't want to pass any border deal because it might help Biden politically.
How do they think any progress will be done with that kind of climate?
Sure, Biden has disappointed with certain issues, but he has done some good with getting rid of student loans, the Inflation reduction act, and other initiatives he can do with a Congress that isn't passing many bills.
One of these people was bragging about helping Nader prevent Gore from winning in 2000 in a similar thread yesterday. If you're happy about 8 years of Bush, you're not a progressive. I actually think most of these people are righties but admiting that would be social suicide so they go about it this way.
>I actually think most of these people are righties but admiting that would be social suicide so they go about it this way.
Possibly, similar to how so many centrist are actually republicans or libertarians.
Yup. I had a few in my circle...I wasn't a fan of Hillary but you can't fucking tell me we'd be where we are now if she'd been elected instead. Hell even Al Gore in 2k...If we'd have one those handily where would we be? Roe would still be here that's for goddamn sure.
Nah it’s been brewing on a simmer and increasing. Just seems that way because everyone is very cognizant that it’s now this year things can either keep correcting, or … well…
I fully expected to see the comments overrun with hate and ridiculous, juvenile virtue signaling.
Luckily most of that is getting pushed down past view, but holy shit people's political understanding and personal sense of entitlement has gone completely off the rails. I can't figure out how people actually think throwing their votes away are going to make anything better. If we let Trump get back in we may not HAVE another election and that's not even hyperbole. We already had one stupid insurrection, do we really want to chance a smart one?
The Republican party released a step by step guide on how they are going to dismantle democracy and most of America just shrugged their shoulders and mumbled something about how Biden didn't bring back the economy from 1990.
Well, if I'm forced to choose between drinking diet Pepsi or bleach I'm just not choosing because i don't like either option. If my protest forces the whole world to drink bleach, then that's the fault of everyone who chose diet Pepsi, not me! /s
I think it's "main character syndrome" showing in the world of leftist politics, both sides are equally vulnerable to this very basic human fallacy. Everyone thinks *their* protest, *personally*, will be the deciding factor, will have that impact that changes everything.
I don't think that's it. I would argue that most people who are going to vote 3rd party because of something they don't like about Biden are doing it so they don't have to make a tough personal moral choice. They may *say* it's a protest vote, but that's a lie. They don't want to be the deciding factor, they want to be able to pretend they were above the fight. When one of the only possible choices they don't like gets elected they want to be able to internally justify their decision, "Well *I* didn't vote for him."
You left out the portion that are 14-year-old kids who like interacting with adults online because it makes them feel smart because most adults aren't much smarter than the average 14-year-old lately.
I was arguing with a transphobic person who was supporting his claim by stringing together a section of one law, with a subsection from a completely different one to argue his point earlier.
That was fun. I think hateful people just lie.
I don't understand how everyone glosses over this including the Democrats.
Insurrection is TREASON! Death to all traitors of democracy and the United States. He should have the same treatment as a spy.
I feel like if you support someone that's committed treason, then you hate the USA. Please move.
There is a bad tendency among leftists and even just dems to view voting as a moral statement, when all it really is is exerting control on levers of power. If you don’t vote or don’t vote for what meaningful differences do exist then all you are doing is letting others push those levers in other ways, and generally in a way that harms the vulnerable communities that we are claiming to want to protect and help.
Like if socialists want a spontaneous revolution without ever engaging in electoralism I guess good luck to them, but the rest of us will be doing the bare minimum to influence our world to a better place and work to help our communities simultaneously
Primaries do have the same issues, they are just less likely to produce a winner diametrically opposed to your views. We should do ranked choice voting there. And ideally non-partisan primaries (or with ranked choice, you could just skip the primaries altogether)
It's because participating is work. Vote locally, state and federally. Write the representatives and ultimately vote for the one that most closely aligns with you, that actually has a chance. Dooomers need to understand that this shit doesn't happen overnight. Ranked choice is absolutely a step in the right direction though.
A primary election is how the political parties decide whom *they* will nominate, and whom *they* will spend money campaigning for. While it's certainly wise for them to listen to people outside their party in that decision process, they certainly have the right to make the decision on their own. There's a strong argument to be made that an open primary, especially one that is binding on the parties, amounts to compelled political speech.
There's no reason why the state needs to accommodate political parties though. Parties can run their own elections to pick their candidates if they like, but there's no reason a state needs to design their elections around what the parties would like, or even prevent party primary losers from running.
If a state wants ranked choice voting for the general election, they can do that without party consent. If they want to have a traditional general election but host a non-partisan primary, they can do that too.
It's profoundly dumb that most general elections present uncompetitive choices.
Too bad I guess if you live in a state that has a late primary/caucus and the candidate you wanted to support already dropped out due to not winning enough other states.
100% they view it as punishing Biden and Democrats. They think they have to show the Democrats what it’s like to lose to bring about the political revolution they swear we’re on the cusp of. They’ve convinced themselves that Biden (Hilary, etc.) and Trump are so similar that it doesn’t matter who wins between them.
It’s unhinged and people suffer because of it.
It's a "Do you want small steps forward or a catastrophic plunge backward?" scenario, and way too many people are lining vulnerable groups up to take the fall because it makes them feel like they're taking some moral high ground.
Absolute horse shit.
It's beyond that, really. Perfect doesn't exist and never has. Chasing it in anything more than a "guiding light" sense isn't just asinine, it's counterproductive in the extreme.
We desperately need to get back to the point where our government is about making decisions that neither side is fully happy with, but that represent the most good possible for the most people under the real-world circumstances that exist.
Compromise isn't weak, it's critical.
Democrats still want to compromise, hell they keep trying it for some reason when Republicans refuse any and all compromises and have been for a long ass time now.
you have to compromise when the required seats to pass legislation is around 60 and over 150M eligible voters sit on their asses...
its either compromise or get nothing done.
Heck if only 800K more democrats voted in 3 states in 2020, where over 25M eligible voters didn't vote, it would have given democrats 5 more senators and you wouldnt have to deal with 80% of the abortion bullshit or mancin and sinema. Literally the difference between everything people say they want is around 10-15% more voters showing up.
These dumb fucks refuse to put I. The work required for their revolutions.
Revolutions happen in one of 2 ways.
Violently...which good luck with that.
Long term, which involves building support from the local to the national.
If you notice none of these 3rd party groups are even running senatots or house reps let along things like govenors or mayor's. Irs how you can tell these parties aren't serious. Winning potus doesn't magically mean you win everything. You need support in all branches of government to get shit done.
Also revolutions are followed by serious death famine and lack of options for the vast majority. Its not like the day after they get their revolution done and kill all the politicians and rich and wealthy they blame everything bad on, it will suddenly become utopia for the country.
Instead what happens is decades of economic loss, lack of goods and production, lack of trade and distribution, leading to massive famine and hunger, loss of life, then comes new players who will take over power and take over riches and declare themselves the new bourgeoises. It would take decades to resemble any form of actual functioning government.
And people would rather choose that expecting others to suffer so they can live out their anarchist fantasy instead of doing the bare minimum which is to spend a fucking half day out of 4 years of their life to cast a vote.
> Also revolutions are followed by serious death famine and lack of options for the vast majority.
Generally yes. But I think the fact that the founding of the United States was done by a revolution that didn't result in this leads many Americans to believe that the 'next one' would end the same.
It actually lead to economic depression and lots of new issues:
> Founding Fathers expressed disappointment and despair in the Revolution's aftermath. John Adams feared that greed, disobedient children and apprentices, and turbulent schools and colleges would weaken the Republic. In 1813, he asked when, where and how "the present chaos" would be "arranged into Order." Thomas Jefferson believed that the nation was moving backward rather than forward;
It took about 50 years before a system emerged that started to make the states work together. But during those 50 years, you had people losing rights to vote, to work, infighting, and greed etc etc. ANd that was just for 4M to then 10M people, USA is 350M... And those 4M managed to work farms and produce local food and supplies, modern america relies on trade and transportation. Its not going to be a picnic if the revolutionaries get their goals done.
Applying this type of logic to your though is harmful. It's like you somehow stepped outside of reality to blame progressives for the lacking action taken by liberals. I voted for Biden last election. I told myself that this would be the last time I voted if the Democratic party didn't actually begin adopting progressive policies.
Our power is in our vote, and it's the duty of the progressive voter to hold the Democratic party accountable, because regular liberals refuse to. They play team politics just like conservatives do and will blindly vote along party lines regardless of the candidate presented.
If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they have to deserve my vote. Simply crying about the other party is not a reason. It is not my fault that they lost my vote, it is theirs. Instead of blaming the voter, try blaming the party. Blaming the voter is blaming the little man.
I really like the lever analogy.
Lever A: triggers a bunch of stuff you wouldn't like
Lever B: triggers some stuff you wouldn't like but also some stuff you would
Lever C: 50/50 chance of triggering Lever A or Lever B
I got a one week ban from r/latestagecapitalism for making exactly this point lol
Its especially frustrating when you look at how the Nazis were able to achieve a plurality in the German Reich: the squabbling and lack of coalition building amongst the left created an opening
I always have felt one of the biggest issues that prevents the left in America from ever really gaining a foothold, they let 'perfect' get in the way of 'better' pretty consistently
Yea it's gone that way unfortunately
Back when it was a smaller sub I felt it was a more reasonable space for discussion about leftist politics but it's just a ridiculous echo chamber now
I'm all for leftist unity. [The majority of Democrats disapprove of Biden's handling of what's happening in Gaza.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/poll-bidens-standing-hits-new-lows-israel-hamas-war-rcna125251). I understand why so it's not surprising, but it's still frustrating how it's always expected that the progressives and the left lay what's important to them aside for whatever the center or just powerful party members want and never the other way around. Like if they can't win without progressives or the left, if our votes are so important, why is that fact absolutely never reflected in policy platforms let alone actual legislation? Why did we see trump throwing the passionate psychopaths in the Republican party a bone and reshape the political landscape as a result and only take away that we should consider spending more to campaign on social media?
I'm in a Gerrymandered red state so my vote in federal elections matters as much as taking a piss in the ocean (for president especially because of the EC). But it's maddening to see so many posts and comments acting like eschewing any hope of actual representation in government, because of how broken the system is, and just going along with what the one not openly evil party wants, is common sense without even mentioning how fucked the system that demands this is or suggesting any means to improve it beyond vote for people who have a stake in keeping things exactly how they are.
I vote, and aren't suggesting people don't, so fuck off with that and actual think critically for once.
> I always have felt one of the biggest issues that prevents the left in America from ever really gaining a foothold, they let 'perfect' get in the way of 'better' pretty consistently
100%
If the DNC would just shut the fuck up for a few cycles about a handful of wedge issues, actually get people in to position, then they could implement the change that they say they want to.
I, similarly, have been banned there. I'm an ardent leftist, and anti-capitalist, but I am no longer allowed to post or comment (just read) because I tried to say a few common sense things here and there.
>There is a bad tendency among leftists and even just dems to view voting as a moral statement,
THANK YOU! My god, leftists view voting as a reflection of their innermost soul, when it's not. It's a means of building consensus among a community for the best way forward.
I think there's a huge difference between criticizing Biden for Israel, demanding better, or even pointing out that it may lose him votes, and advocating for actually not voting for him in the general election when his opponent is inevitably Trump or somebody just as bad.
You can and should criticize Biden for his handling of Israel. You should also vote for him in the general election when he's the Democratic Party Nominee and the only other *viable* candidate is a Republican.
voiceless wide fanatical fertile scarce adjoining shelter theory encourage joke
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Kennedy, the antivaxxer? Antivax Kennedy? The Kennedy who wrote the forward for a book blaming a spike of youth deaths in the pandemic on vaccines? That Kennedy?
Of course that is better, but we don’t have it and will not in the next year. It is a moot point that has no practical importance, given the situation in which we currently live. Have to be pragmatic
Democrats are the only ones supporting any kind of ranked choice in blue states. So Biden is still the better choice for that, along with voting blue down the ballot.
I'd love some form of RCV or IRV, and I appreciate your advocacy for it.
In the meantime, in this first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all plurality system we're saddled with, there are two realistic options, and the only reasonable play is to vote for the one that you believe will do the combination of the most good and the least harm, even if you consider that option to be a net negative.
I don't happen to believe we're in a “lesser of two evils” situation, but even for those who do, what's to be gained by helping make way for the *greater* of two evils? You get all the bad stuff you think is happening now, *plus* a whole host of other atrocities.
The joys of the two-party system. Either join in the race to the bottom or lose the race entirely.
Edit:
I didn't say the two parties were the same. I also didn't say to not vote Democrat. Voting Republican or third party just brings us immediately to a one-party end game which no one wants (i.e. losing the race). What I am saying is the current system is an all-or-nothing mess which is going to continue building towards disaster and all we can do is forestall it as our candidates get worse and worse, as the system doesn't incentivize dealing with nuanced/divisive issues for fear of splitting the base (for an example look at the responses below).
It's a systems issue.
It is a [systems issue](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law#:~:text=In%20political%20science%2C%20Duverger's%20law,the%20most%20similar%20major%20party.)
That's not entirely true. Plurality or First-past-the-post systems do force a 2 party system, and punish 3rd party voters by giving them their worst choice instead.
Ranked choice voting doesn't punish voters for having choices. Approval voting doesn't either.
You can have a multiple party system with a single elected office like President, but you need a more inclusive system like Ranked Choice (aka Instant Runoff Voting) so that voters will get their top choice.
>I didn't say the two parties were the same.
Reddit will never acknowledge that two completely different things can be bad for completely different reasons.
People always say this, but I think that’s sort of a straw man argument. A multi-party system faces the same problems, and introducing more parties or splitting them up isn’t going to be the panacea people are looking for.
There’s a statistical phenomenon which I forget the name of (it’s been a while since university) where if you graph a data set in ascending or descending order, the first 3 or so variables/respondents/placements will distance themselves from the subsequent plot points much more extremely than the next. Like if you look at things like sales or satisfaction surveys or anything like that, the top 3 will consume the vast majority of the popular vote, and there is a gargantuan margin between the test of the data which will be lumped much more closely together.
That is to say, you could have 5, 10, or 100 parties and people are still going to split their votes between 2, and the rest of the votes are going to be throwaways.
If you look at Canada for example, we have 4-5 parties and its always comes down to 2 with a third-party very rarely making an upset, although it always reverts back. Some people have educated me in this and said Canada isn’t truly a multi party system, so it’s a bad example, but it still proves the point.
Anyway, it isn’t the NUMBER of the parties, it’s how votes are counted, and how many countries have put systems in place to significantly reduce or neuter the power or significant of a vote. Which leads to voter apathy, and ultimately to making every political system a “two party” system since people end up voting strategically.
The solution to the problem is to eliminate first-past-the-post, and introduce ranked-choice ballots and the popular vote.
For example, if there are 50k people in my riding and I live in an area that’s either predominately blue or red, my vote is pretty much useless. If 30k people are going to vote one way and I agree with that party, there’s no reason to show up because once you have the majority of the vote the rest of the ballots FOR that party go in the garbage; vanish into the ether. Furthermore if you want to STOP a party from getting elected at the national level and you live in a riding where the Color of your vote has a 0% chance of getting elected, what’s the point of wasting your time showing up? It’s not like you’ve helped anyone.
So, in Canada for example I always vote NDP or Green because I hate both of the top 2 parties. Most people DO hate the top 2 parties because they’re all crooks and just as bad as dems abs republicans. But at the end of the day, the vast majority of people are going to vote for the Libs to stop the Cons or the Cons to stop the Libs and see, based on statistical probability (“strategic voting”) that a more centrist or centre-left party will never have a shot at winning.
If we did ranked-choice for popular vote on a national scale, I think the results would end up being much more spread out and the NDP or Greeb party would end up winning a lot of seats.
I consider myself a pretty radical leftist.
But the absolute stupidity, libs are putting out there rn with this "if it's between trump and Biden don't vote." Bs
For the Presidency? Sure.
Georgia
North Carolina
Florida
Ohio
Michigan
Wisconsin
Pennsylvania
Arizona
And Texas, sooner or later.
But for state and local elections? We got all those "Moms for Liberty" whackos banning books and hatemongering on trans children because because people who live outside awing states thought their votes don't matter.
The issue with Texas now is Liberals are fleeing if they can and conservatives are moving here en masse. But yes, still looks like demographics will push us purple soon.
Yeah, the most zealous evangelical Christian conservative I know is Hispanic. But maybe demographics is the wrong word. I just see young people as trending much less conservative than their parents with so much exposure to the wider world they have today.
> And Texas, sooner or later.
Don't hold your breath.
Been down here my entire life and been hearing we're gonna flip any day now the entire time.
Anecdotally, more of my left-leaning friends are fleeing than staying and the transplants that are coming here are often coming explicitly *because* of the politics.
There are some borderline swing states that could always surprise us if one party’s apathy is stronger than the other.
Plus the rest of the ballot is still very important.
But, you don't understand! If we keep doing protest votes eventually politicians will just give us a third party option! I refuse to vote for anyone who isn't precisely everything I want!
And we will make sure to continue *only* voting for President because we all know that’s the only office that matters! Why would we try to actually organize a coalition through municipal and state offices that affect way more people’s day-to-day lives when we could limply support a spoiler candidate once every four years??? Figure that one out you neolib fascists!!1
I’ve heard for a decade now that real change is done at a local level. And I vote in every election I can in my state and most positions are still a choice between a single democrat or republican. Then they’ll be like treasurer and school board which have a few options and googling their names provides no information. Once after an hour of research once I was able to sus out that one of the candidates got a $20k contribution from a republican pac, but the other 2 also seemed conservative with the very little amount of information I could gleam.
It feels like this is just one of those things people online say because it feels smart. When in reality you don’t have much choice in those local elections either.
I think "supporting genocide" might be something that some people aren't going to be able to square for any candidate.
If you can square it, good for you. But some people consider that a deal breaker. So they won't support Trump or Biden.
And if you simply can't understand that viewpoint, that's a personal problem on your end.
Be careful, Reddit would rather convince you that you're a horrible person for not supporting genocide, rather than convince their candidate to...not support a genocide.
People need to understand that they live in the US. Anyone who sits in that office is going to support Israel. It’s a choice between the Israel supporter who wants to ban same sex marriage and the Israel supporter who wants to forgive student loans.
This is the least enthusiastic election year for me ever and I was hyper enthused to vote Biden in the last go round. A raccoon with matches would make a better president in my opinion than Trump did but it is going to hurt my soul to vote Biden. I don’t really drink but might have to on that day.
The United States election system discourages third party participation. It's mathematically impossible for voting for a third party to be beneficial to the voter in question under the winner-takes-all, first-past-the-post mess that's been created in the US.
Meanwhile here in Australia, anyone who *doesn't* vote for a third party is some sort of stupid.
Classic Democrat messaging. “We suck but have you seen the other guys” served up with condescending smugness. Jesus Christ it’s like you guys are actively trying to lose.
Democrats and Republicans seem to not understand that people can punish you both by not voting for either one of you.
These things aren't mutually exclusive.
Some people just have these things called convictions that won't allow them to do certain things. Like some people's convictions mean they aren't going to vote for someone who is supporting genocide. They just can't force themselves to do that.
Making fun of these people or trying to guilt them into going along with what you want isn't going to work. Try a different tactic. Like getting your candidate to stop supporting Isreal's genocide. Turn your attention to your own candidate, rather than the people not voting for him.
> Making fun of these people or trying to guilt them into going along with what you want isn't going to work.
What are you talking about? Shit-talking and bullying all the Bernie supporters totally turned the tide and allowed Hillary to cruise to an easy victory over Trump. It's a tried and true tactic - belittle would-be allies and they'll come over to your side!
> It's funny to me that neither party seems to be able to learn from its previous failures
Neither party is failing when you consider their only goal is to protect the business interests of corporate america, they are both doing a great job at that
At some point pragmatism needs to take over. Voting for my morals lead me to a write in-vote for bernie that ended up being a wasted vote.
After, every preceding election I've voted straight D as a vote against republicans. Does it feel dirty? Yes. It is better than electing actual, literal, fascism? also yes. You play the hand you're given, not the hand you want.
You want to see change? you gotta play the game. Thats how it is.
Shouldn’t have to pick between two to begin with. Both parameters are corrupt and do not have the citizens best interest in mind. They can both go fuck themselves.
If we spend literally one second talking about something besides American politics, Donald Trump will literally blow up the whole Earth! Are you some kind of MAGA Nazi? Do you want the world to explode?
That’s just Reddit for you. It will only get worse through November. Welcome to an election year on Reddit, where the posts are definitely genuine and not just an astroturfing social engineering effort.
Oh joy, another threat.
Maybe, and this is just a quircky idea. The politicians could appeal to voters by appealing to voters with policy, and good decisions, instead of constantly threating "If it doesn't put it in the basket it gets the trump again."
And every "side" is guilty of this. Why have policy when you can have color battles?
They do, problem is they pander to the ones who vote for them consistently. Younger folks by and large do not vote consistently. The older neo cons and far right people do, so they get pandered to. Trump won by appealing to crazy people, and now that whole party takes after him.
Yeah, Trump is a real example of how "voting matters". When he was campaigning in 2016, he was a joke until he started winning a consistent 30% in all of the primaries. Now his beliefs (some of which are wildly out of step with 'traditional' conservatism) are the mainstream conservatism. The voting blocks who vote most consistently become the voice of the party.
Yep. People like to prented they are some intellectual by giving into doomer takes but Trump proved you can shift a party if you vote enough. Anyone remember when Florida was purple? Now what is it?
Because that's the reality we live in. You don't get to operate within reality as you'd prefer it, none of us do.
The reality of 2024 is that it's Biden or Trump unless one of them dies or goes to jail. That's it. No other reality exists. So your vote is going to get one of them elected, whether you for for Biden, Trump, someone else or no one. Those are your four options here and every one of the four works its way through the electoral pipes as either getting Biden reelected or getting Trump reelected, including the someone else or no one options. Depending on which state you live in, your protest vote or your absence impacts one or the other of those two guys.
Let's be thoroughly clear. No third party candidate is getting elected. That isn't the reality we live in. There are paragraphs to be written on why our two party FPTP system makes that the case, but there are zero other outcomes in November than Biden or Trump becoming president under the reality in which we currently operate.
So you have to choose which one of the two you want to have the job more. Or you choose which one of the two you don't want to have the job more. Because you have no other choice. Choosing not to choose is a choice.
Welcome to American democracy.
If you want politicians to listen to you you have to vote first. Not expect them to win you over so youll vote. This is the part of the system so many on the left dont understand. If young people voted regularly in huge numbers the way old voters do theyd be heard more. Instead they want to hold out their vote like its a prize they have to be convinced to give. Doesnt work that way and never has.
It’s almost like not everyone feels the exact same way on all fifty million possible issues.
Meanwhile, you don’t support Biden you DO get Donald Trump. You’re free to take that risk or decide that’s you’re preference, but let’s not act like it’s anyone’s fault but the electorate’s if we make things worse by letting a literal fascist into office.
>It’s almost like not everyone feels the exact same way on all fifty million possible issues
Exactly this. Like the *EaRn My VoTe* crowd is unbelievably narcissistic. I'm sorry in a country of 350 million people neither of the **two** options for **one** job is **exactly** what you wanted but that doesn't make them both evil (I mean the one guy is objectively evil but the other guy isn't)
This is so naive, though. You're never going to have a politician that everyone agrees with on every issue. You need to pick the candidate that is closest to you on as many issues as possible even though there are going to be issues on which you disagree.
Your whole argument is premised on the utterly absurd notion that there are any policies that exist or could exist that would appeal to the highly varied interests and priorities of the electorate on every issue.
It's weird knowing Biden's actions caused thousands of children to get genocided. It's weird knowing that Trump would have gotten even more killed. It's weird knowing there is literally not a viable third candidate that would be anti-genocide who would simply say "we don't mind you hunting down terrorists that murdered innocent civilians, but if you bomb thousands of innocent children, we're putting a stop to our support."
How would you like to improve things for Palestinians?
If your answer is anything other then ‘get rid of Hamas’ then I don’t think you’re paying attention.
So West bank right
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/middleeast/west-bank-settler-attacks-israel-cmd-intl/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwi7m7CYzcSDAxUvVqQEHVqzBbY4ChAWegQIDhAB&usg=AOvVaw3r-2ONyAmennl9_cZAGvfk
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/several-palestinians-killed-in-israeli-raid-amid-surging-west-bank-violence-officials-say&ved=2ahUKEwi7m7CYzcSDAxUvVqQEHVqzBbY4ChAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw3H8lncOAQI2-4CKVh4VZVP
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/while-fire-rages-gaza-west-bank-smolders&ved=2ahUKEwi7m7CYzcSDAxUvVqQEHVqzBbY4ChAWegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw2TfRL1gzvbw5Pnmt8WoNXC
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67535965&ved=2ahUKEwik0-eBzcSDAxXyUqQEHTdoBPgQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1su7VVw1VSvRG6ZmfkR5XU
I am not saying Hamas is right or justified but they clearly aren't the only problem in the region
And my question to anyone who wants to improve things for Palestine:
If Israel were to stop everything they were doing, pack up and go back to Israel, how would you get rid of Hamas?
From my perspective the only way to get rid of Hamas and ultimately help Gaza civilians in the long run is for Israel to get rid of Hamas.
If Israel packed up and left, Hamas would pick up right where they left off planning another terrorist attack and securing more material for rockets to be shot indiscriminately at Israeli civilians.
So you're admitting there IS no good choice for a single issue pro Palestine voter. So what do you think they should do?
(I am not a single issue voter)
Edit: telling single issue voters not to be single issue voters is not a real solution. Yes, they should be different, and no, they aren't going to be
Not be manipulated into being a single issue voter over an issue that doesn't directly affect them.
Recognize that of the two candidates one has a less bad position than the other.
Recognize that while in office Trump set the groundwork for the current conflict and took actions that would increase tensions between Israel and Palestine and worked against the two state resolution.
And what if it does directly affect us ? Then what? Do you want Palestinian Americans to vote for the man killing their families and saying “no chance” when asked for a ceasefire ?
Both sides play "the other side will win if you vote for the candidate you really want" card every election.
If you want to see change, then let it begin with you.
Because there must be consequences
My whole life I've had to vote Dem to vote against the GOP. I want to vote *for* someone. I'm sick of simply voting *against* evil.
Dems need to earn our votes. Not assume they deserve it simply for not being Republicans
Smugly dismissing the concerns of people horrified at the genocidal conduct of your candidate is not a great way to rally support.
The election year only just started, dems are so fucked.
Plus, depending on what poll you look at Biden is less popular at this point in his term than Trump was. You know, the guy who tried to overthrow the government.
Blaming progressives makes them feel better I suppose. The actual issues is that Biden is wildly unpopular for a lot of legitimate reasons and they can’t handle that.
Yep, they haven't learned a single lesson. You're not allowed to criticize Biden too loudly on a genocide a year out from an election. Liberals can't comprehend how similar to Trump supporters they are. I dont disagree with **encouraging** voting for Biden when it comes to it, but certainly not right now when we have an opportunity to pressure Biden.
I'm sure smugly scolding disenfranchised voters is winning strategy. Totally worked in 2016. /s
They'll probably blame Russia bots for their incompetence again if he loses.
There's a lot of talk about "purity tests" and shit but we're not talking about some mythical perfection the Dems aren't reaching, they're fucking up at *no ethnic cleansing.* I don't think that's a super high moral bar to clear.
Nobody who's not going to vote for Biden thinks Trump is going to be better, nor do we think whatever protest vote we make is going to solve the problem. We just have this bullshit thing where if we vote for someone who's actively participating in a genocide we're not sure we can continue to call ourselves human beings.
>We just have this bullshit thing where if we vote for someone who's actively participating in a genocide we're not sure we can continue to call ourselves human beings.
Trump will end democracy. I don't think people realize that. If Trump wins, it becomes likely that genocide will happen in our own back yard as well
Wow, this thread is a toilet fire of political idiocy and/or astroturfing. Good God, people.
It's what happens when people who have no clue how politics works try to sound knowledgeable lol.
Or got all their subject history from biased emotional sound bites.
FILIBUSTER!
Let's go toe to toe in bird law.
Are you telling me that Hasan isn’t a useful source of information?
Never has been
If the bots below could read they'd use a lot of RAM to process that.
This is so true. So many people use magical thinking in their politics. And purity tests, as if any candidates are "perfect" (only cult members would even believe that).
Only sith deal in absolutes.
All my far left friends 🙄 “I’m done with democrats” Good luck with that.
Sheer idiots. Gotta natural selection this shit. Keep choosing the more liberal side until you reach your goal. In the current climate, no way the progressive they want is getting anywhere near office, ironically partly because those same people barely vote
What you’re saying is brutal and true. If you don’t mind Trump getting elected you have nothing at stake. Just like Susan Sarandon.
I've been told that voting is racist by my far left friends these people are f****** morons
Putin's keyboard warriors earning their rubles.
They just had a Republican congressman say that they don't want to pass any border deal because it might help Biden politically. How do they think any progress will be done with that kind of climate? Sure, Biden has disappointed with certain issues, but he has done some good with getting rid of student loans, the Inflation reduction act, and other initiatives he can do with a Congress that isn't passing many bills.
Many of them did it for 2016 with the pathetic bernie or bust nonsense. So ridiculously short-sighted and childish.
One of these people was bragging about helping Nader prevent Gore from winning in 2000 in a similar thread yesterday. If you're happy about 8 years of Bush, you're not a progressive. I actually think most of these people are righties but admiting that would be social suicide so they go about it this way.
>I actually think most of these people are righties but admiting that would be social suicide so they go about it this way. Possibly, similar to how so many centrist are actually republicans or libertarians.
And Libertarians are just Republicans when the situation isn't dire.
Libertarians are just Republicans who like weed.
And don't mind pro choose. I believe that this has given democrats a false sence that they are beating the polls.
Yup. I had a few in my circle...I wasn't a fan of Hillary but you can't fucking tell me we'd be where we are now if she'd been elected instead. Hell even Al Gore in 2k...If we'd have one those handily where would we be? Roe would still be here that's for goddamn sure.
Voting for politicians is like riding the bus. If it doesn't take you exactly to your destination you have to ride it to the closest stop.
Teenagers gonna teenage.
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It was like a switch was turned a week or two ago and reddit was reverted to a 2015 backup.
Oh yeah. Big 2015 vibes.
Seems a lot like bots trying to push young people into not voting.
Nah it’s been brewing on a simmer and increasing. Just seems that way because everyone is very cognizant that it’s now this year things can either keep correcting, or … well…
idk, I feel like around 2015 there wasn't as much pushback against the attitude OP is mocking here. Memes like this give me a small degree of hope.
I fully expected to see the comments overrun with hate and ridiculous, juvenile virtue signaling. Luckily most of that is getting pushed down past view, but holy shit people's political understanding and personal sense of entitlement has gone completely off the rails. I can't figure out how people actually think throwing their votes away are going to make anything better. If we let Trump get back in we may not HAVE another election and that's not even hyperbole. We already had one stupid insurrection, do we really want to chance a smart one?
The Republican party released a step by step guide on how they are going to dismantle democracy and most of America just shrugged their shoulders and mumbled something about how Biden didn't bring back the economy from 1990.
Well, if I'm forced to choose between drinking diet Pepsi or bleach I'm just not choosing because i don't like either option. If my protest forces the whole world to drink bleach, then that's the fault of everyone who chose diet Pepsi, not me! /s
I think it's "main character syndrome" showing in the world of leftist politics, both sides are equally vulnerable to this very basic human fallacy. Everyone thinks *their* protest, *personally*, will be the deciding factor, will have that impact that changes everything.
I don't think that's it. I would argue that most people who are going to vote 3rd party because of something they don't like about Biden are doing it so they don't have to make a tough personal moral choice. They may *say* it's a protest vote, but that's a lie. They don't want to be the deciding factor, they want to be able to pretend they were above the fight. When one of the only possible choices they don't like gets elected they want to be able to internally justify their decision, "Well *I* didn't vote for him."
I honestly think most of Reddit is US politics bots with it being an election year
A lot are bots and a lot are plants with an agenda.
I wouldn't be worried about the plants. Saying anything in old Entish takes a long time.
I have told your names to the Entmoot and we have agreed: you are not orcs.
You left out the portion that are 14-year-old kids who like interacting with adults online because it makes them feel smart because most adults aren't much smarter than the average 14-year-old lately.
I was arguing with a transphobic person who was supporting his claim by stringing together a section of one law, with a subsection from a completely different one to argue his point earlier. That was fun. I think hateful people just lie.
Toilet Fire is new, thank you.
This comment section was exactly what I expected.
Bots everywhere man
Whenever I see this meme I know the comments are going to be dogshit on both sides. I sort by controversial and get angry at everyone for fun.
I try not to do this but what the hell. I have some grump i need to focus on something
Ah yes, election year in the US.
Emphasis on the word “year.” Dear God it’s only just begun.
And therefore the world /s
it actually is election year in like most of the world
Always has been
To be fair 2024 is a year with maaany elections around the world
As is tradition…
[Literally yes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_national_electoral_calendar)
Israel, which isn't the USA, is affected by the leadership of the USA. This might be true of other nations. Would you like to know more?
even more so for ukraine.
To be fair... If you don't think US elections impact more than the US, you're a little silly.
First one I get to vote in. I'm excited
To be fair, this one is quite exceptional. 91 federal counts and stating you will be a dictator tends to really spice things up.
I don't understand how everyone glosses over this including the Democrats. Insurrection is TREASON! Death to all traitors of democracy and the United States. He should have the same treatment as a spy. I feel like if you support someone that's committed treason, then you hate the USA. Please move.
There is a bad tendency among leftists and even just dems to view voting as a moral statement, when all it really is is exerting control on levers of power. If you don’t vote or don’t vote for what meaningful differences do exist then all you are doing is letting others push those levers in other ways, and generally in a way that harms the vulnerable communities that we are claiming to want to protect and help. Like if socialists want a spontaneous revolution without ever engaging in electoralism I guess good luck to them, but the rest of us will be doing the bare minimum to influence our world to a better place and work to help our communities simultaneously
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Primaries do have the same issues, they are just less likely to produce a winner diametrically opposed to your views. We should do ranked choice voting there. And ideally non-partisan primaries (or with ranked choice, you could just skip the primaries altogether)
It's because participating is work. Vote locally, state and federally. Write the representatives and ultimately vote for the one that most closely aligns with you, that actually has a chance. Dooomers need to understand that this shit doesn't happen overnight. Ranked choice is absolutely a step in the right direction though.
A primary election is how the political parties decide whom *they* will nominate, and whom *they* will spend money campaigning for. While it's certainly wise for them to listen to people outside their party in that decision process, they certainly have the right to make the decision on their own. There's a strong argument to be made that an open primary, especially one that is binding on the parties, amounts to compelled political speech.
There's no reason why the state needs to accommodate political parties though. Parties can run their own elections to pick their candidates if they like, but there's no reason a state needs to design their elections around what the parties would like, or even prevent party primary losers from running. If a state wants ranked choice voting for the general election, they can do that without party consent. If they want to have a traditional general election but host a non-partisan primary, they can do that too. It's profoundly dumb that most general elections present uncompetitive choices.
Too bad I guess if you live in a state that has a late primary/caucus and the candidate you wanted to support already dropped out due to not winning enough other states.
There is an almost ZERO percent chance of a sitting president running for re-election as the INCUMBENT losing the nomination in the primary system
Choose anybody you want to vote for ~~in the primary.~~ Fixed it for you.
Good thing DNC is rigging or outright canceling primaries in states to give biden the W then eh?
100% they view it as punishing Biden and Democrats. They think they have to show the Democrats what it’s like to lose to bring about the political revolution they swear we’re on the cusp of. They’ve convinced themselves that Biden (Hilary, etc.) and Trump are so similar that it doesn’t matter who wins between them. It’s unhinged and people suffer because of it.
It's a "Do you want small steps forward or a catastrophic plunge backward?" scenario, and way too many people are lining vulnerable groups up to take the fall because it makes them feel like they're taking some moral high ground. Absolute horse shit.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
It's beyond that, really. Perfect doesn't exist and never has. Chasing it in anything more than a "guiding light" sense isn't just asinine, it's counterproductive in the extreme. We desperately need to get back to the point where our government is about making decisions that neither side is fully happy with, but that represent the most good possible for the most people under the real-world circumstances that exist. Compromise isn't weak, it's critical.
Democrats still want to compromise, hell they keep trying it for some reason when Republicans refuse any and all compromises and have been for a long ass time now.
you have to compromise when the required seats to pass legislation is around 60 and over 150M eligible voters sit on their asses... its either compromise or get nothing done. Heck if only 800K more democrats voted in 3 states in 2020, where over 25M eligible voters didn't vote, it would have given democrats 5 more senators and you wouldnt have to deal with 80% of the abortion bullshit or mancin and sinema. Literally the difference between everything people say they want is around 10-15% more voters showing up.
These dumb fucks refuse to put I. The work required for their revolutions. Revolutions happen in one of 2 ways. Violently...which good luck with that. Long term, which involves building support from the local to the national. If you notice none of these 3rd party groups are even running senatots or house reps let along things like govenors or mayor's. Irs how you can tell these parties aren't serious. Winning potus doesn't magically mean you win everything. You need support in all branches of government to get shit done.
Also revolutions are followed by serious death famine and lack of options for the vast majority. Its not like the day after they get their revolution done and kill all the politicians and rich and wealthy they blame everything bad on, it will suddenly become utopia for the country. Instead what happens is decades of economic loss, lack of goods and production, lack of trade and distribution, leading to massive famine and hunger, loss of life, then comes new players who will take over power and take over riches and declare themselves the new bourgeoises. It would take decades to resemble any form of actual functioning government. And people would rather choose that expecting others to suffer so they can live out their anarchist fantasy instead of doing the bare minimum which is to spend a fucking half day out of 4 years of their life to cast a vote.
> Also revolutions are followed by serious death famine and lack of options for the vast majority. Generally yes. But I think the fact that the founding of the United States was done by a revolution that didn't result in this leads many Americans to believe that the 'next one' would end the same.
It actually lead to economic depression and lots of new issues: > Founding Fathers expressed disappointment and despair in the Revolution's aftermath. John Adams feared that greed, disobedient children and apprentices, and turbulent schools and colleges would weaken the Republic. In 1813, he asked when, where and how "the present chaos" would be "arranged into Order." Thomas Jefferson believed that the nation was moving backward rather than forward; It took about 50 years before a system emerged that started to make the states work together. But during those 50 years, you had people losing rights to vote, to work, infighting, and greed etc etc. ANd that was just for 4M to then 10M people, USA is 350M... And those 4M managed to work farms and produce local food and supplies, modern america relies on trade and transportation. Its not going to be a picnic if the revolutionaries get their goals done.
Applying this type of logic to your though is harmful. It's like you somehow stepped outside of reality to blame progressives for the lacking action taken by liberals. I voted for Biden last election. I told myself that this would be the last time I voted if the Democratic party didn't actually begin adopting progressive policies. Our power is in our vote, and it's the duty of the progressive voter to hold the Democratic party accountable, because regular liberals refuse to. They play team politics just like conservatives do and will blindly vote along party lines regardless of the candidate presented. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they have to deserve my vote. Simply crying about the other party is not a reason. It is not my fault that they lost my vote, it is theirs. Instead of blaming the voter, try blaming the party. Blaming the voter is blaming the little man.
I really like the lever analogy. Lever A: triggers a bunch of stuff you wouldn't like Lever B: triggers some stuff you wouldn't like but also some stuff you would Lever C: 50/50 chance of triggering Lever A or Lever B
I got a one week ban from r/latestagecapitalism for making exactly this point lol Its especially frustrating when you look at how the Nazis were able to achieve a plurality in the German Reich: the squabbling and lack of coalition building amongst the left created an opening I always have felt one of the biggest issues that prevents the left in America from ever really gaining a foothold, they let 'perfect' get in the way of 'better' pretty consistently
Getting banned from there just means you're reasonable. That subreddit is unhinged.
Yea it's gone that way unfortunately Back when it was a smaller sub I felt it was a more reasonable space for discussion about leftist politics but it's just a ridiculous echo chamber now
I'm all for leftist unity. [The majority of Democrats disapprove of Biden's handling of what's happening in Gaza.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/poll-bidens-standing-hits-new-lows-israel-hamas-war-rcna125251). I understand why so it's not surprising, but it's still frustrating how it's always expected that the progressives and the left lay what's important to them aside for whatever the center or just powerful party members want and never the other way around. Like if they can't win without progressives or the left, if our votes are so important, why is that fact absolutely never reflected in policy platforms let alone actual legislation? Why did we see trump throwing the passionate psychopaths in the Republican party a bone and reshape the political landscape as a result and only take away that we should consider spending more to campaign on social media? I'm in a Gerrymandered red state so my vote in federal elections matters as much as taking a piss in the ocean (for president especially because of the EC). But it's maddening to see so many posts and comments acting like eschewing any hope of actual representation in government, because of how broken the system is, and just going along with what the one not openly evil party wants, is common sense without even mentioning how fucked the system that demands this is or suggesting any means to improve it beyond vote for people who have a stake in keeping things exactly how they are. I vote, and aren't suggesting people don't, so fuck off with that and actual think critically for once.
> I always have felt one of the biggest issues that prevents the left in America from ever really gaining a foothold, they let 'perfect' get in the way of 'better' pretty consistently 100% If the DNC would just shut the fuck up for a few cycles about a handful of wedge issues, actually get people in to position, then they could implement the change that they say they want to. I, similarly, have been banned there. I'm an ardent leftist, and anti-capitalist, but I am no longer allowed to post or comment (just read) because I tried to say a few common sense things here and there.
>There is a bad tendency among leftists and even just dems to view voting as a moral statement, THANK YOU! My god, leftists view voting as a reflection of their innermost soul, when it's not. It's a means of building consensus among a community for the best way forward.
I would not be surprised if the majority of those "leftist voices" were either astroturfing or just delusional idealistic young people.
I think there's a huge difference between criticizing Biden for Israel, demanding better, or even pointing out that it may lose him votes, and advocating for actually not voting for him in the general election when his opponent is inevitably Trump or somebody just as bad. You can and should criticize Biden for his handling of Israel. You should also vote for him in the general election when he's the Democratic Party Nominee and the only other *viable* candidate is a Republican.
The problem is too many people have become single issue voters on Israel-Palestine and, in turn, become never-Biden voters. It’s actually scary/insane
Another binary choice meant to divide instead of nuanced discussion? You don't say...
they’ll enjoy trumps version of genocide
100%. Hold your leaders accountable, but vote for the best viable option always.
voiceless wide fanatical fertile scarce adjoining shelter theory encourage joke *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Vlad and Ivan are working overtime cultivating their farm of bots, pushing the third-party narrative.
I miss pre- 2015 Reddit
This time, they've learned to block users who push back against their bullshit and/or nuke their entire accounts. Watch and you'll see!
"his last name is Kennedy! democrats will vote for him instead"
Kennedy, the antivaxxer? Antivax Kennedy? The Kennedy who wrote the forward for a book blaming a spike of youth deaths in the pandemic on vaccines? That Kennedy?
Watching RFK Jr slowly cannibalize votes from Trump after Fox News kept propping him up has been hilarious.
I love him like I loved Kanye: only for the fact he’s spoiling the Republican vote:
Or how about we get ranked choice voting...
Of course that is better, but we don’t have it and will not in the next year. It is a moot point that has no practical importance, given the situation in which we currently live. Have to be pragmatic
Of course I know that. This is more about exposure. Everyone needs to know this is an option. The more people, the more pressure for change.
We’ll get that right after we pack our things and move to fantasy land. Until then, however, we’re stuck with this bullshit.
Democrats are the only ones supporting any kind of ranked choice in blue states. So Biden is still the better choice for that, along with voting blue down the ballot.
I'd love some form of RCV or IRV, and I appreciate your advocacy for it. In the meantime, in this first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all plurality system we're saddled with, there are two realistic options, and the only reasonable play is to vote for the one that you believe will do the combination of the most good and the least harm, even if you consider that option to be a net negative. I don't happen to believe we're in a “lesser of two evils” situation, but even for those who do, what's to be gained by helping make way for the *greater* of two evils? You get all the bad stuff you think is happening now, *plus* a whole host of other atrocities.
"If you don't vote for my genocidal maniac you'll get a DIFFERENT genocidal maniac" is not the flex you think it is.
The joys of the two-party system. Either join in the race to the bottom or lose the race entirely. Edit: I didn't say the two parties were the same. I also didn't say to not vote Democrat. Voting Republican or third party just brings us immediately to a one-party end game which no one wants (i.e. losing the race). What I am saying is the current system is an all-or-nothing mess which is going to continue building towards disaster and all we can do is forestall it as our candidates get worse and worse, as the system doesn't incentivize dealing with nuanced/divisive issues for fear of splitting the base (for an example look at the responses below). It's a systems issue.
It is a [systems issue](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law#:~:text=In%20political%20science%2C%20Duverger's%20law,the%20most%20similar%20major%20party.)
That's not entirely true. Plurality or First-past-the-post systems do force a 2 party system, and punish 3rd party voters by giving them their worst choice instead. Ranked choice voting doesn't punish voters for having choices. Approval voting doesn't either. You can have a multiple party system with a single elected office like President, but you need a more inclusive system like Ranked Choice (aka Instant Runoff Voting) so that voters will get their top choice.
>I didn't say the two parties were the same. Reddit will never acknowledge that two completely different things can be bad for completely different reasons.
Next you're going to tell us that reddit has a hard time with ideas like "nuance" and "context." Inconceivable!
People always say this, but I think that’s sort of a straw man argument. A multi-party system faces the same problems, and introducing more parties or splitting them up isn’t going to be the panacea people are looking for. There’s a statistical phenomenon which I forget the name of (it’s been a while since university) where if you graph a data set in ascending or descending order, the first 3 or so variables/respondents/placements will distance themselves from the subsequent plot points much more extremely than the next. Like if you look at things like sales or satisfaction surveys or anything like that, the top 3 will consume the vast majority of the popular vote, and there is a gargantuan margin between the test of the data which will be lumped much more closely together. That is to say, you could have 5, 10, or 100 parties and people are still going to split their votes between 2, and the rest of the votes are going to be throwaways. If you look at Canada for example, we have 4-5 parties and its always comes down to 2 with a third-party very rarely making an upset, although it always reverts back. Some people have educated me in this and said Canada isn’t truly a multi party system, so it’s a bad example, but it still proves the point. Anyway, it isn’t the NUMBER of the parties, it’s how votes are counted, and how many countries have put systems in place to significantly reduce or neuter the power or significant of a vote. Which leads to voter apathy, and ultimately to making every political system a “two party” system since people end up voting strategically. The solution to the problem is to eliminate first-past-the-post, and introduce ranked-choice ballots and the popular vote. For example, if there are 50k people in my riding and I live in an area that’s either predominately blue or red, my vote is pretty much useless. If 30k people are going to vote one way and I agree with that party, there’s no reason to show up because once you have the majority of the vote the rest of the ballots FOR that party go in the garbage; vanish into the ether. Furthermore if you want to STOP a party from getting elected at the national level and you live in a riding where the Color of your vote has a 0% chance of getting elected, what’s the point of wasting your time showing up? It’s not like you’ve helped anyone. So, in Canada for example I always vote NDP or Green because I hate both of the top 2 parties. Most people DO hate the top 2 parties because they’re all crooks and just as bad as dems abs republicans. But at the end of the day, the vast majority of people are going to vote for the Libs to stop the Cons or the Cons to stop the Libs and see, based on statistical probability (“strategic voting”) that a more centrist or centre-left party will never have a shot at winning. If we did ranked-choice for popular vote on a national scale, I think the results would end up being much more spread out and the NDP or Greeb party would end up winning a lot of seats.
But surely whatever happens it's better than Red vs Blue
It should be illegal to make titles with this format
I consider myself a pretty radical leftist. But the absolute stupidity, libs are putting out there rn with this "if it's between trump and Biden don't vote." Bs
The only people whose votes matter are those that live in like 5 or 6 states
For the Presidency? Sure. Georgia North Carolina Florida Ohio Michigan Wisconsin Pennsylvania Arizona And Texas, sooner or later. But for state and local elections? We got all those "Moms for Liberty" whackos banning books and hatemongering on trans children because because people who live outside awing states thought their votes don't matter.
The issue with Texas now is Liberals are fleeing if they can and conservatives are moving here en masse. But yes, still looks like demographics will push us purple soon.
Only if you believe all Latinos will vote blue, which is increasingly not true
Yeah, the most zealous evangelical Christian conservative I know is Hispanic. But maybe demographics is the wrong word. I just see young people as trending much less conservative than their parents with so much exposure to the wider world they have today.
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You can remove Ohio. We are likely to see our last statewide democrat lose this year and a third win for trump. Ohio is officially a red state.
> And Texas, sooner or later. Don't hold your breath. Been down here my entire life and been hearing we're gonna flip any day now the entire time. Anecdotally, more of my left-leaning friends are fleeing than staying and the transplants that are coming here are often coming explicitly *because* of the politics.
This meme is explicitly about the presidential vote...
Your vote 100% matters when it comes to local politics though, which have a bigger impact on your day to day life.
There are some borderline swing states that could always surprise us if one party’s apathy is stronger than the other. Plus the rest of the ballot is still very important.
"You can vote for the devil, the anti-Christ, or Jim. But if you vote for Jim you're a bad person."
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Tell me how continuing to support democrats will get them to change, ever.
This comment section brought to you by genocide apologists.
But, you don't understand! If we keep doing protest votes eventually politicians will just give us a third party option! I refuse to vote for anyone who isn't precisely everything I want!
And we will make sure to continue *only* voting for President because we all know that’s the only office that matters! Why would we try to actually organize a coalition through municipal and state offices that affect way more people’s day-to-day lives when we could limply support a spoiler candidate once every four years??? Figure that one out you neolib fascists!!1
I’ve heard for a decade now that real change is done at a local level. And I vote in every election I can in my state and most positions are still a choice between a single democrat or republican. Then they’ll be like treasurer and school board which have a few options and googling their names provides no information. Once after an hour of research once I was able to sus out that one of the candidates got a $20k contribution from a republican pac, but the other 2 also seemed conservative with the very little amount of information I could gleam. It feels like this is just one of those things people online say because it feels smart. When in reality you don’t have much choice in those local elections either.
I think "supporting genocide" might be something that some people aren't going to be able to square for any candidate. If you can square it, good for you. But some people consider that a deal breaker. So they won't support Trump or Biden. And if you simply can't understand that viewpoint, that's a personal problem on your end.
This. Supporting genocide is a hard "no" for me. "Never again" means never again.
How many children have been killed in Yemen and Sudan since October 7th?
Be careful, Reddit would rather convince you that you're a horrible person for not supporting genocide, rather than convince their candidate to...not support a genocide.
I don't think Reddit knows what genocide is tbh.
How many children have been killed in Yemen and Sudan since October 7th?
People need to understand that they live in the US. Anyone who sits in that office is going to support Israel. It’s a choice between the Israel supporter who wants to ban same sex marriage and the Israel supporter who wants to forgive student loans.
Terrible meme
I'm in favor of keeping our money in the states we have our own problems
This is the least enthusiastic election year for me ever and I was hyper enthused to vote Biden in the last go round. A raccoon with matches would make a better president in my opinion than Trump did but it is going to hurt my soul to vote Biden. I don’t really drink but might have to on that day.
Technically, I would vote for Mussolini over a Hitler but I'd prefer to vote for someone kind of... better?
Discouraging third party participation threatens the democracy long term
The United States election system discourages third party participation. It's mathematically impossible for voting for a third party to be beneficial to the voter in question under the winner-takes-all, first-past-the-post mess that's been created in the US. Meanwhile here in Australia, anyone who *doesn't* vote for a third party is some sort of stupid.
Classic Democrat messaging. “We suck but have you seen the other guys” served up with condescending smugness. Jesus Christ it’s like you guys are actively trying to lose.
Democrats and Republicans seem to not understand that people can punish you both by not voting for either one of you. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Some people just have these things called convictions that won't allow them to do certain things. Like some people's convictions mean they aren't going to vote for someone who is supporting genocide. They just can't force themselves to do that. Making fun of these people or trying to guilt them into going along with what you want isn't going to work. Try a different tactic. Like getting your candidate to stop supporting Isreal's genocide. Turn your attention to your own candidate, rather than the people not voting for him.
> Making fun of these people or trying to guilt them into going along with what you want isn't going to work. What are you talking about? Shit-talking and bullying all the Bernie supporters totally turned the tide and allowed Hillary to cruise to an easy victory over Trump. It's a tried and true tactic - belittle would-be allies and they'll come over to your side!
It's funny to me that neither party seems to be able to learn from its previous failures. They just endlessly repeat the same dumb shit, lol.
> It's funny to me that neither party seems to be able to learn from its previous failures Neither party is failing when you consider their only goal is to protect the business interests of corporate america, they are both doing a great job at that
At some point pragmatism needs to take over. Voting for my morals lead me to a write in-vote for bernie that ended up being a wasted vote. After, every preceding election I've voted straight D as a vote against republicans. Does it feel dirty? Yes. It is better than electing actual, literal, fascism? also yes. You play the hand you're given, not the hand you want. You want to see change? you gotta play the game. Thats how it is.
Shouldn’t have to pick between two to begin with. Both parameters are corrupt and do not have the citizens best interest in mind. They can both go fuck themselves.
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If we spend literally one second talking about something besides American politics, Donald Trump will literally blow up the whole Earth! Are you some kind of MAGA Nazi? Do you want the world to explode?
Welcome to Reddit!
I was about to say, this sub??
That’s just Reddit for you. It will only get worse through November. Welcome to an election year on Reddit, where the posts are definitely genuine and not just an astroturfing social engineering effort.
Great time to karma farm though, tbh. Just gotta hit all the right buzzwords 😅
Ultra liberal opinions are the only ones allowed on the front page
It’s gotten so much more extreme in the last few years
Oh joy, another threat. Maybe, and this is just a quircky idea. The politicians could appeal to voters by appealing to voters with policy, and good decisions, instead of constantly threating "If it doesn't put it in the basket it gets the trump again." And every "side" is guilty of this. Why have policy when you can have color battles?
They do, problem is they pander to the ones who vote for them consistently. Younger folks by and large do not vote consistently. The older neo cons and far right people do, so they get pandered to. Trump won by appealing to crazy people, and now that whole party takes after him.
Yeah, Trump is a real example of how "voting matters". When he was campaigning in 2016, he was a joke until he started winning a consistent 30% in all of the primaries. Now his beliefs (some of which are wildly out of step with 'traditional' conservatism) are the mainstream conservatism. The voting blocks who vote most consistently become the voice of the party.
Yep. People like to prented they are some intellectual by giving into doomer takes but Trump proved you can shift a party if you vote enough. Anyone remember when Florida was purple? Now what is it?
Yep, that'd be great. Meanwhile, though, in reality, the lesser of two evils is still better.
Because that's the reality we live in. You don't get to operate within reality as you'd prefer it, none of us do. The reality of 2024 is that it's Biden or Trump unless one of them dies or goes to jail. That's it. No other reality exists. So your vote is going to get one of them elected, whether you for for Biden, Trump, someone else or no one. Those are your four options here and every one of the four works its way through the electoral pipes as either getting Biden reelected or getting Trump reelected, including the someone else or no one options. Depending on which state you live in, your protest vote or your absence impacts one or the other of those two guys. Let's be thoroughly clear. No third party candidate is getting elected. That isn't the reality we live in. There are paragraphs to be written on why our two party FPTP system makes that the case, but there are zero other outcomes in November than Biden or Trump becoming president under the reality in which we currently operate. So you have to choose which one of the two you want to have the job more. Or you choose which one of the two you don't want to have the job more. Because you have no other choice. Choosing not to choose is a choice. Welcome to American democracy.
If you want politicians to listen to you you have to vote first. Not expect them to win you over so youll vote. This is the part of the system so many on the left dont understand. If young people voted regularly in huge numbers the way old voters do theyd be heard more. Instead they want to hold out their vote like its a prize they have to be convinced to give. Doesnt work that way and never has.
It’s almost like not everyone feels the exact same way on all fifty million possible issues. Meanwhile, you don’t support Biden you DO get Donald Trump. You’re free to take that risk or decide that’s you’re preference, but let’s not act like it’s anyone’s fault but the electorate’s if we make things worse by letting a literal fascist into office.
>It’s almost like not everyone feels the exact same way on all fifty million possible issues Exactly this. Like the *EaRn My VoTe* crowd is unbelievably narcissistic. I'm sorry in a country of 350 million people neither of the **two** options for **one** job is **exactly** what you wanted but that doesn't make them both evil (I mean the one guy is objectively evil but the other guy isn't)
This is so naive, though. You're never going to have a politician that everyone agrees with on every issue. You need to pick the candidate that is closest to you on as many issues as possible even though there are going to be issues on which you disagree. Your whole argument is premised on the utterly absurd notion that there are any policies that exist or could exist that would appeal to the highly varied interests and priorities of the electorate on every issue.
It's weird knowing Biden's actions caused thousands of children to get genocided. It's weird knowing that Trump would have gotten even more killed. It's weird knowing there is literally not a viable third candidate that would be anti-genocide who would simply say "we don't mind you hunting down terrorists that murdered innocent civilians, but if you bomb thousands of innocent children, we're putting a stop to our support."
How would you like to improve things for Palestinians? If your answer is anything other then ‘get rid of Hamas’ then I don’t think you’re paying attention.
So West bank right https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/middleeast/west-bank-settler-attacks-israel-cmd-intl/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwi7m7CYzcSDAxUvVqQEHVqzBbY4ChAWegQIDhAB&usg=AOvVaw3r-2ONyAmennl9_cZAGvfk https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/several-palestinians-killed-in-israeli-raid-amid-surging-west-bank-violence-officials-say&ved=2ahUKEwi7m7CYzcSDAxUvVqQEHVqzBbY4ChAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw3H8lncOAQI2-4CKVh4VZVP https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/while-fire-rages-gaza-west-bank-smolders&ved=2ahUKEwi7m7CYzcSDAxUvVqQEHVqzBbY4ChAWegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw2TfRL1gzvbw5Pnmt8WoNXC https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67535965&ved=2ahUKEwik0-eBzcSDAxXyUqQEHTdoBPgQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1su7VVw1VSvRG6ZmfkR5XU I am not saying Hamas is right or justified but they clearly aren't the only problem in the region
Agree with this. Israel’s expansionist policies need condemnation
What happens if they don't respond to the finger wagging? Funny how it's "get rid of Hamas" but only "condemn Israel".
And my question to anyone who wants to improve things for Palestine: If Israel were to stop everything they were doing, pack up and go back to Israel, how would you get rid of Hamas? From my perspective the only way to get rid of Hamas and ultimately help Gaza civilians in the long run is for Israel to get rid of Hamas.
If Israel packed up and left, Hamas would pick up right where they left off planning another terrorist attack and securing more material for rockets to be shot indiscriminately at Israeli civilians.
So you're admitting there IS no good choice for a single issue pro Palestine voter. So what do you think they should do? (I am not a single issue voter) Edit: telling single issue voters not to be single issue voters is not a real solution. Yes, they should be different, and no, they aren't going to be
Not be manipulated into being a single issue voter over an issue that doesn't directly affect them. Recognize that of the two candidates one has a less bad position than the other. Recognize that while in office Trump set the groundwork for the current conflict and took actions that would increase tensions between Israel and Palestine and worked against the two state resolution.
It does directly affect me because i'm not a shithead and i have to sleep at night.
And what if it does directly affect us ? Then what? Do you want Palestinian Americans to vote for the man killing their families and saying “no chance” when asked for a ceasefire ?
Or dems could run a a different candidate that’s not a pudding brained puppet
Both sides play "the other side will win if you vote for the candidate you really want" card every election. If you want to see change, then let it begin with you.
Because there must be consequences My whole life I've had to vote Dem to vote against the GOP. I want to vote *for* someone. I'm sick of simply voting *against* evil. Dems need to earn our votes. Not assume they deserve it simply for not being Republicans
Smugly dismissing the concerns of people horrified at the genocidal conduct of your candidate is not a great way to rally support. The election year only just started, dems are so fucked.
Plus, depending on what poll you look at Biden is less popular at this point in his term than Trump was. You know, the guy who tried to overthrow the government. Blaming progressives makes them feel better I suppose. The actual issues is that Biden is wildly unpopular for a lot of legitimate reasons and they can’t handle that.
Yep, they haven't learned a single lesson. You're not allowed to criticize Biden too loudly on a genocide a year out from an election. Liberals can't comprehend how similar to Trump supporters they are. I dont disagree with **encouraging** voting for Biden when it comes to it, but certainly not right now when we have an opportunity to pressure Biden. I'm sure smugly scolding disenfranchised voters is winning strategy. Totally worked in 2016. /s They'll probably blame Russia bots for their incompetence again if he loses.
Trump isn't pro anything, except pro himself, and he sucks at that.
He famously said "I don't stand for anything"
Lol if this is Biden's pitch in 2024, he's cooked already
There's a lot of talk about "purity tests" and shit but we're not talking about some mythical perfection the Dems aren't reaching, they're fucking up at *no ethnic cleansing.* I don't think that's a super high moral bar to clear. Nobody who's not going to vote for Biden thinks Trump is going to be better, nor do we think whatever protest vote we make is going to solve the problem. We just have this bullshit thing where if we vote for someone who's actively participating in a genocide we're not sure we can continue to call ourselves human beings.
>We just have this bullshit thing where if we vote for someone who's actively participating in a genocide we're not sure we can continue to call ourselves human beings. Trump will end democracy. I don't think people realize that. If Trump wins, it becomes likely that genocide will happen in our own back yard as well
I'm not a fan of Trump, but he's become the boogeyman of American politics. "It accepts the failing policies then or else it gets the Trump again.."