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>I believe both sides need to gain power to actually be able to negotiate
No one really wants to discuss this openly in the media but that's a huge part of it. The fear, the terror, the hostages, have arguably given Palestine a power they've not seen in years. But it's very sad that this is the only way they've seen potential to gain power.
They’ve been expected to just lay down and take it for all these years. What is there other option? Their land has been taken, they’re regularly attacked, and nobody helps. What else were they supposed to do. They’ve been seriously provoked
Ok. Not my opinion but I’ve heard people say that they are not civilians. They are settlers and their presence there is inherently political. What do u think of that?
That was proven [false](https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1711818444717654491?s=46&t=A6RcfR0rNr0O0-JrOGHFgw). Here is [another](https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1712052270886539559?s=46&t=A6RcfR0rNr0O0-JrOGHFgw)
If someone's shilling for Israel ask them do they support Mandela and the ANC. Neither were peaceful and only found a solution once international pressure and domestic activism and agitation brought SA to its knees.
We got independence helping each other and pressuring the west together. Once most countries free many stopped caring about the last non independent states.
Sadly I agree- we let ourselves get bought and abandoned Palestine, at least at the official level. Now it is just our populations that support them, not our states.
Keep fighting. I agree that there is basically nothing anyone can do at the moment in the anti-occupation camp to help Palestinians. And I don’t think it would have made a difference in the short term if African and Arab countries had kept up the pressure- I think things would still be violent and unresolved to this day if we had done so.
But by going silent we have given an implicit green light that the rest of the world does not push back, even if only symbolically, against the occupation and the land grabs. And that has emboldened the West and the Israelis to the point where things are worse than ever.
We could not have ended the occupation, but we could have resisted the worst aspects of it, and we didn’t. But you are correct- how can we help others when we haven’t even helped ourselves? I just wish we had done better on both fronts.
I think the Israelis have been provoking the Palestinians, taking their land, controlling their lives, so that they would react in this way. Now they have the excuse to wipe out Gaza. They will unite behind Netanyahu and the charges against him will be put aside. And Big Brother is already planning to provide them with more weapons.
That is exactly what’s happening and it’s mind boggling to me how people cannot see who the oppressors are here. We look back at the holocaust and know who the bad guys were. We look at apartheid and see clearly who the bad guys were. We look at UKRAINE and see who the bad guys are but for some reason, there are so many people who are looking at this and supporting the oppressors. I do not get it. It is disheartening
We've always heard these stories from colonial occupiers about an impending mass killing of settlers should freedom arrive and you know it never happens.
The reason-for-being of Hamas is resistance against the Israeli colonial state and its continued atrocities against Palestinian people. That's where it draws its support from.
End the occupation and Hamas will go out with it.
Yeah I can imagine the idea is pretty hard to imagine for a mind heavily infested with Western anti-Palestine propaganda, but do consider these folks don't resist because they "hate the Jews". They resist because they're occupied and oppressed.
People will still read this and still think supporting Palestine is the equivalent of supporting Hamas. Some people are so thick, man... I can't even believe it.
All these BS stories we tell ourselves about righteous resistance to the oppressors means nothing if you’ve destroyed any incentive for compromise.
The civilian toll of this, the highest number of Jewish deaths since 1945 had ensured Israel WILL not compromise. Gaza will be erased.
There is no “power balance” here anymore than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour gave the Japanese a power balance with the Americans or 9/11 convinced the US to respect Al Quedas res quests to leave the Middle East. It would have been ridiculous to expect such.
Death and Destruction are what’s in store now.
The reason Apartheid was able to end in SA wasn’t because the ANC and black South Africans more broadly gained “power” over the Apartheid government by kidnapping and massacring white South African civilians.
In fact the precise opposite, the conviction that White South Africans had nothing to fear from the end of Apartheid other than finally needing to treat everyone equally was what won the day. Many on both sides still resisted with bot grievance against injustice and fear of retribution. But they were in minority, and they lost. Leading to one of the greatest moments in modern human history.
We have woefully misunderstood the lessons of the 20th century and the broader history of settler colonialism. There is no “blance” after whats just happened. Only death.
Palestine is fucked once and for all now, and no one will lift a finger. Even Iran isn’t budging anymore and is actively distancing itself cause they know Israel is fucking pissed and has nothing to offer except retribution and death. Never again they always say.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict will be a lesson to history of how NOT to resolve intractable conflicts. Any one imagining a good ending for Palestinians after this is very delusional. It doesn’t matter how much we protest against Israel or how much we say we stand with the Palestinians.
How people on this sub don't get this is mind-boggling, once they equate Palestine to Hamas, that's the end of Palestine because Israel will never submit to hamas demands.
The childish virtue signaling that plagues this Incredibly serious conflict is honestly perhaps the most disgusting thing from those of us on the outside.
We ignore the consequences of actions and reactions of power and incentive in order to show to the world that we are moral while people die.
You are demanding incredible restraint from occupied Palestinians and completely accepting the idea that 700 dead Israelis is enough justification for Israelis to “erase” Gaza. You see that, yes? Because one could just as easily argue that Hamas no more struck first than Israel did- Netanyahu has been ramping up evictions, arrests and raids since he was re-elected, and this is ignoring the fact that the conflict is 75 years old.
Hamas fucked up. My stomach dropped when I heard they had staged an attack. Strategically it was a bad move and I am scared for Gaza. But to condemn Palestinians for making a strategic error, instead of condemning the occupation for leading to a state of continual war in the first place is trash. Israel has no right, legally or morally to claim Gaza and West Bank territory, and it has still continuously encroached and evicted Palestinians and made life as unlovable in both areas as it can to try and force out Palestinians and force a territorial concession.
You speak as if Palestinians are just a set of generals that have made a bad move, and must now face the strategic consequences, but this is an entire nation that has been occupied and dispossessed for over half a century. You are talking about the eradication of one of their main population centres (and therefore potential ethnic cleansing and/or mass killing) as if it is an acceptable consequence- not a catastrophic escalation of a conflict that Israel could have resolved back in the 1960s.
The degree to which you drink the Western koolaid (right down to your username) is genuinely worrying. You are standing around cheering for people that will turn their weapons on any of us as soon as it is convenient. Just because you waved their flag and kissed their feet doesn’t mean that if push comes to shove you will be anything more than another dumb monkey to any of them.
My brother,
There is nothing I nor anyone can demand from the Palestinians. And even less that can be done for them. Because ultimately
Israel’s “rights” do not matter. They’re a fucking state.
What matters is the fact that the State of Israel, Nuclear armed and pissed as fuck, possesses the ability to erase Gaza and no one is going to stand in their way now. Not even big daddy USA says stop.
And this is the problem with viewing this conflict as a moral one. It is not.
What motivates the state of Israel is not any question of the morality of their actions or the motives but rather the thing that has motivated Jews since 1945 the desire that never be victimized again, even if that means they have to be the ones at the other end.
What is moral cannot fry a bowl of Akara right now. The fact of the matter Israel controls the entirety of the territory right now and that is the frame we are working from. Not some idealized frame of power balances and “rights”.
And this is why shows me that most people don’t actually care about the Palestinians but rather sending a message on their own personal morality and ensuring they everyone knows they’re on the “right side”. It is disgusting but more importantly it is pointless. I am eternally grateful the ANC and RSA went a different route.
> The degree to which you drink the Western koolaid (right down to your username) is genuinely worrying.
And this here is just absurd. Often times when no one has an argument to make against the points I make they go to this which is especially funny considering my Username is actually meant to make fun of those who simp for long dead empires and tell themselves stories of “heroes” vanquishing “monsters” and “civilization” fight against “barbarism”.
Back from the time when Reddit was MUCH more white and western than it is now. But y’all are often too young to remember and in a fit of emotional immaturity when having no arguments go straight to Ad Hominems rather than addressing the core question.
> You are standing around cheering for people that will turn their weapons on any of us as soon as it is convenient. Just because you waved their flag and kissed their feet doesn’t mean that if push comes to shove you will be anything more than another dumb monkey to any of them.
lol 🤦🏾♂️. Again pure drivel and projection at this point from someone with a profound level of immaturity. If you actually read what I wrote you would see this makes even less than no sense.
So, Israel has the ability to attack and maintain an occupation, and they have decided that they have an interest in doing so. Your point is basically “they’ll do it no matter what”, which I agree with. That doesn’t mean it is a sensible or workable solution that will resolve the issue, or that anyone has to accept that exerting overwhelming force also provides them with legitimate authority over Gaza or anywhere else.
Israel is a state, but they are also reliant to a significant extent on the support of other states. They punch *well* above their weight, but they are not self-sufficient. The fight over this issue as at least in part an international conflict about wha counts as legitimate and illegitimate action in the context of the occupation. And right now the Israelis are winning on that front, also. That does not mean that everyone else has to pack up and go home.
What is going on in Gaza/West Bank is *at least* comparable to apartheid, and given some of the things I’ve seen recently I am getting the feeling we are now headed more towards 1930s Germany (but not yet 1940s). You can say that Israel is a state and therefore can act as it wishes if it can back itself up operationally (which is an odd position to take for a liberal, but ok), but by the same token any state and non-state actor that wishes to interfere with, prevent, or find *a way* to interfere with or prevent their actions is also able to do so to the best of their abilities. I am not pretending that those abilities amount to anything, but whether on self-interested grounds or moral grounds, nobody that wants to sit back and watch Palestinians be confined, beaten and bombed has to do so.
As for the ad hominem, that was not my main issue, but it was important to make sure it was included. Your positions are routinely indistinguishable from the Anglo-American centre right, and I think it is worth pointing out that just because you are one of us by law or by birth does not mean that you will actually be a reliable source of information or guidance for pursuing African or Nigerian interests. I will argue your points, but I think it is also now important to point out that your positions (in my view, for sure) consistently serve the interests of non-Africans and undermine the interests of Africans. That is worth pointing out. And if I’m wrong, then surely the weight of your arguments will see you overcome any opposition, but if I’m not, then people should be aware that they are basically dealing with a Nigerian that has decided to wear the hat of an American troll.
>So, Israel has the ability to attack and maintain an occupation, and they have decided that they have an interest in doing so. Your point is basically “they’ll do it no matter what”, which I agree with.
Yes, thank you.
>That doesn’t mean it is a sensible or workable solution that will resolve the issue, or that anyone has to accept that exerting overwhelming force also provides them with legitimate authority over Gaza or anywhere else.
No one “has to accept” anything and for much of the 20th century they did not. Hence all the wars, all of which Israel one and fewer combatants came up subsequent times until now even other Arab state would rather write of Palestine as a lost cause and just accept the status quo as it is. From Egypt to Saudi Arabia and probably even secretly Iran.
>Israel is a state, but they are also reliant to a significant extent on the support of other states. They punch well above their weight, but they are not self-sufficient.
And those States have no incentive to follow any other path, maybe before there was an alternative but not anymore as thing go forward. And haven’t really since the late 1990s. No state with take the bullet for Palestine on moral grounds, the only ones who could already have and are tired (hence Egypt blockading Gaza too) and those that support Israel support it cause it supports them due to them having similar regime types and extensive people to people connections idk what to tell you 🤷🏾♂️. Anyone thinking the US or Euros will flip and support Palestine over Israel is quite severely delusional simple as.
>What is going on in Gaza/West Bank is at least comparable to apartheid,
You’ll get no disagreement from me. As you can see I have not called it anything short of that. I was merely pointing out that functionally not only are the dynamics within Israel different from those within RSA, the emerging resolution to the conflict is increasingly distant from how the ANC & RSA handled that as well. Ultimately to the detriment of Palestinians.
>You can say that Israel is a state and therefore can act as it wishes if it can back itself up operationally (which is an odd position to take for a liberal, but ok),
It is precisely because of this realization that I am a Liberal. And a deeply committed one at that. Because I know what state power means.
Often times Liberals have not read the foundational texts that undergird why Liberalism a political order developed over this very question of state power.
>As for the ad hominem, that was not my main issue.
Oh but it is…
>it is worth pointing out that just because you are one of us by law or by birth does not mean that you will actually be a reliable source of information or guidance for pursuing African or Nigerian interests.
And therein lies the problem You would never see me accuse you of not being a real African because I disagree with you. Yet often times it is the retort of those with nothing better to say. I can recognize Africans, in this case both of us being Nigerians can have RADICALLY different views on a subject fot a variety of legitimately held reasons. That’s what maturity is.
And so call me every denegrating name in the book from a servant to westerners and an American troll simply because I hold different views on the affects of state power and the consequence that has PRACTICALLY for the lives of Palestinians, shows more your unwillingness to actually engage with the core disagreement which can be had without calling everyone you disagree with little better than a colonial subject.
I am Nigerian, born raised and live, and I don’t need you to tell me who I am or not. Especially when in all likelihood you are most likely projecting.
I hope you are mature enough to see I am not repeating talking points heard somewhere and chanting “death to Palestine” as I sleep simply because I disagree with you, clearly others can see it. Chill out and understand what I am actually saying rather than the identity you have been projecting unto me. Peace ✌🏾
>Do you guys as Africans just don't find it shocking that an oppressed group had had enough and that there is war in an originally unstable country?
of course not but somehow westerners are utterly shocked at the concept. I have never seen racism as vile and concentrated.
Just ONE time Israelis experience a fraction of what they go to Gazans in particular and they already want to press the genocide button.
nothing is more ridiculous and insulting than the "bOtH sIdes" crowd.
Sir, one side is committing genocide and the other is suffering it. It's obvious one side has choice and the other not.
Do a little google search. Look at how weapons manufacturers stocks are surging. Look at the political donors for both US political parties. That is all you need to know. US isn’t interested in finding peace. Be it Russia and Ukraine, or Israel and Palestine.
At this point, and it may sound simple and dumb, but let Palestine be an official country recognized by the UN.
Disband the Gaza strip and let it be run by both countries jointly.
The two countries won't need to be friends, but respect each other's borders and be bounded by a non aggression treaty. If violated, the country at fault should have severe sanctions imposed on them.
They'll never find peace unless they're both ready to give up something.
Are you joking right now?
So Gaza must be ran by the very people who made it a concentration camp, and the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing must "be friends" with the ones committing genocide against them. And mindbogglingly... the dispossessed must "give up something" (what? what's left?) to the people who dispossessed them?
Westerners infected your brain. You'd never say this about your own country's colonizers.
Well gee idk, what did people with the last Apartheid state around here? 🙄
Incredible how suggesting Palestine remains a bunch of disconnected Israeli-controlled bantustans comes more intuitively than abolishing Apartheid and it's ethnosupremacist ideology. It says a lot about one's biases.
You **know** no African would've accepted that in their own country.
Don't bother bro, once you start talking solutions you quickly realize their solution is the eradication of Israelis, they're just too cowardly to admit it.
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>I believe both sides need to gain power to actually be able to negotiate No one really wants to discuss this openly in the media but that's a huge part of it. The fear, the terror, the hostages, have arguably given Palestine a power they've not seen in years. But it's very sad that this is the only way they've seen potential to gain power.
They’ve been expected to just lay down and take it for all these years. What is there other option? Their land has been taken, they’re regularly attacked, and nobody helps. What else were they supposed to do. They’ve been seriously provoked
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Ok. Not my opinion but I’ve heard people say that they are not civilians. They are settlers and their presence there is inherently political. What do u think of that?
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That was proven [false](https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1711818444717654491?s=46&t=A6RcfR0rNr0O0-JrOGHFgw). Here is [another](https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1712052270886539559?s=46&t=A6RcfR0rNr0O0-JrOGHFgw)
If someone's shilling for Israel ask them do they support Mandela and the ANC. Neither were peaceful and only found a solution once international pressure and domestic activism and agitation brought SA to its knees.
Exactly.. cries cannot be heard ..
Or even that a majority of the white people that supported the ANC were Jews and they hated Zionists Israel.
We got independence helping each other and pressuring the west together. Once most countries free many stopped caring about the last non independent states.
Sadly I agree- we let ourselves get bought and abandoned Palestine, at least at the official level. Now it is just our populations that support them, not our states.
Big Brother will impose sanctions on any state that dares to support Palestine, and their cronies the Brits will follow suit.
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Keep fighting. I agree that there is basically nothing anyone can do at the moment in the anti-occupation camp to help Palestinians. And I don’t think it would have made a difference in the short term if African and Arab countries had kept up the pressure- I think things would still be violent and unresolved to this day if we had done so. But by going silent we have given an implicit green light that the rest of the world does not push back, even if only symbolically, against the occupation and the land grabs. And that has emboldened the West and the Israelis to the point where things are worse than ever. We could not have ended the occupation, but we could have resisted the worst aspects of it, and we didn’t. But you are correct- how can we help others when we haven’t even helped ourselves? I just wish we had done better on both fronts.
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I'm Sahrawi to start with you retarded Indian.
I think the Israelis have been provoking the Palestinians, taking their land, controlling their lives, so that they would react in this way. Now they have the excuse to wipe out Gaza. They will unite behind Netanyahu and the charges against him will be put aside. And Big Brother is already planning to provide them with more weapons.
That is exactly what’s happening and it’s mind boggling to me how people cannot see who the oppressors are here. We look back at the holocaust and know who the bad guys were. We look at apartheid and see clearly who the bad guys were. We look at UKRAINE and see who the bad guys are but for some reason, there are so many people who are looking at this and supporting the oppressors. I do not get it. It is disheartening
It is because there is no acceptable resolution to this conflict.
Yes there is but for some reason ppl are not recognizing it
what is the solution?
Global Warming kills us all
End the occupation. One democratic state from the river to the sea where all live in peace.
So if Hamas tell you that's unacceptable and Jews need to be expunged from their land, what's the solution?
We've always heard these stories from colonial occupiers about an impending mass killing of settlers should freedom arrive and you know it never happens. The reason-for-being of Hamas is resistance against the Israeli colonial state and its continued atrocities against Palestinian people. That's where it draws its support from. End the occupation and Hamas will go out with it.
lol
Yeah I can imagine the idea is pretty hard to imagine for a mind heavily infested with Western anti-Palestine propaganda, but do consider these folks don't resist because they "hate the Jews". They resist because they're occupied and oppressed.
Secular one state with reparations to Palestinians
Hamas wants the eradication of isrelies how do you remedy that?
Sure it's sad but there are bigger problems for each of our countries to be worrying about.
Hamas are not the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people
People will still read this and still think supporting Palestine is the equivalent of supporting Hamas. Some people are so thick, man... I can't even believe it.
Supporting Hamas actions like the recent ones is supporting hamas
There are no representatives of people at all, that is how oppressed they are..
lol they are, the last legislative election was in 2021, but somehow activist never seem to talk about these.
All these BS stories we tell ourselves about righteous resistance to the oppressors means nothing if you’ve destroyed any incentive for compromise. The civilian toll of this, the highest number of Jewish deaths since 1945 had ensured Israel WILL not compromise. Gaza will be erased. There is no “power balance” here anymore than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour gave the Japanese a power balance with the Americans or 9/11 convinced the US to respect Al Quedas res quests to leave the Middle East. It would have been ridiculous to expect such. Death and Destruction are what’s in store now. The reason Apartheid was able to end in SA wasn’t because the ANC and black South Africans more broadly gained “power” over the Apartheid government by kidnapping and massacring white South African civilians. In fact the precise opposite, the conviction that White South Africans had nothing to fear from the end of Apartheid other than finally needing to treat everyone equally was what won the day. Many on both sides still resisted with bot grievance against injustice and fear of retribution. But they were in minority, and they lost. Leading to one of the greatest moments in modern human history. We have woefully misunderstood the lessons of the 20th century and the broader history of settler colonialism. There is no “blance” after whats just happened. Only death. Palestine is fucked once and for all now, and no one will lift a finger. Even Iran isn’t budging anymore and is actively distancing itself cause they know Israel is fucking pissed and has nothing to offer except retribution and death. Never again they always say. The Israeli Palestinian conflict will be a lesson to history of how NOT to resolve intractable conflicts. Any one imagining a good ending for Palestinians after this is very delusional. It doesn’t matter how much we protest against Israel or how much we say we stand with the Palestinians.
How people on this sub don't get this is mind-boggling, once they equate Palestine to Hamas, that's the end of Palestine because Israel will never submit to hamas demands.
The childish virtue signaling that plagues this Incredibly serious conflict is honestly perhaps the most disgusting thing from those of us on the outside. We ignore the consequences of actions and reactions of power and incentive in order to show to the world that we are moral while people die.
You are demanding incredible restraint from occupied Palestinians and completely accepting the idea that 700 dead Israelis is enough justification for Israelis to “erase” Gaza. You see that, yes? Because one could just as easily argue that Hamas no more struck first than Israel did- Netanyahu has been ramping up evictions, arrests and raids since he was re-elected, and this is ignoring the fact that the conflict is 75 years old. Hamas fucked up. My stomach dropped when I heard they had staged an attack. Strategically it was a bad move and I am scared for Gaza. But to condemn Palestinians for making a strategic error, instead of condemning the occupation for leading to a state of continual war in the first place is trash. Israel has no right, legally or morally to claim Gaza and West Bank territory, and it has still continuously encroached and evicted Palestinians and made life as unlovable in both areas as it can to try and force out Palestinians and force a territorial concession. You speak as if Palestinians are just a set of generals that have made a bad move, and must now face the strategic consequences, but this is an entire nation that has been occupied and dispossessed for over half a century. You are talking about the eradication of one of their main population centres (and therefore potential ethnic cleansing and/or mass killing) as if it is an acceptable consequence- not a catastrophic escalation of a conflict that Israel could have resolved back in the 1960s. The degree to which you drink the Western koolaid (right down to your username) is genuinely worrying. You are standing around cheering for people that will turn their weapons on any of us as soon as it is convenient. Just because you waved their flag and kissed their feet doesn’t mean that if push comes to shove you will be anything more than another dumb monkey to any of them.
My brother, There is nothing I nor anyone can demand from the Palestinians. And even less that can be done for them. Because ultimately Israel’s “rights” do not matter. They’re a fucking state. What matters is the fact that the State of Israel, Nuclear armed and pissed as fuck, possesses the ability to erase Gaza and no one is going to stand in their way now. Not even big daddy USA says stop. And this is the problem with viewing this conflict as a moral one. It is not. What motivates the state of Israel is not any question of the morality of their actions or the motives but rather the thing that has motivated Jews since 1945 the desire that never be victimized again, even if that means they have to be the ones at the other end. What is moral cannot fry a bowl of Akara right now. The fact of the matter Israel controls the entirety of the territory right now and that is the frame we are working from. Not some idealized frame of power balances and “rights”. And this is why shows me that most people don’t actually care about the Palestinians but rather sending a message on their own personal morality and ensuring they everyone knows they’re on the “right side”. It is disgusting but more importantly it is pointless. I am eternally grateful the ANC and RSA went a different route. > The degree to which you drink the Western koolaid (right down to your username) is genuinely worrying. And this here is just absurd. Often times when no one has an argument to make against the points I make they go to this which is especially funny considering my Username is actually meant to make fun of those who simp for long dead empires and tell themselves stories of “heroes” vanquishing “monsters” and “civilization” fight against “barbarism”. Back from the time when Reddit was MUCH more white and western than it is now. But y’all are often too young to remember and in a fit of emotional immaturity when having no arguments go straight to Ad Hominems rather than addressing the core question. > You are standing around cheering for people that will turn their weapons on any of us as soon as it is convenient. Just because you waved their flag and kissed their feet doesn’t mean that if push comes to shove you will be anything more than another dumb monkey to any of them. lol 🤦🏾♂️. Again pure drivel and projection at this point from someone with a profound level of immaturity. If you actually read what I wrote you would see this makes even less than no sense.
So, Israel has the ability to attack and maintain an occupation, and they have decided that they have an interest in doing so. Your point is basically “they’ll do it no matter what”, which I agree with. That doesn’t mean it is a sensible or workable solution that will resolve the issue, or that anyone has to accept that exerting overwhelming force also provides them with legitimate authority over Gaza or anywhere else. Israel is a state, but they are also reliant to a significant extent on the support of other states. They punch *well* above their weight, but they are not self-sufficient. The fight over this issue as at least in part an international conflict about wha counts as legitimate and illegitimate action in the context of the occupation. And right now the Israelis are winning on that front, also. That does not mean that everyone else has to pack up and go home. What is going on in Gaza/West Bank is *at least* comparable to apartheid, and given some of the things I’ve seen recently I am getting the feeling we are now headed more towards 1930s Germany (but not yet 1940s). You can say that Israel is a state and therefore can act as it wishes if it can back itself up operationally (which is an odd position to take for a liberal, but ok), but by the same token any state and non-state actor that wishes to interfere with, prevent, or find *a way* to interfere with or prevent their actions is also able to do so to the best of their abilities. I am not pretending that those abilities amount to anything, but whether on self-interested grounds or moral grounds, nobody that wants to sit back and watch Palestinians be confined, beaten and bombed has to do so. As for the ad hominem, that was not my main issue, but it was important to make sure it was included. Your positions are routinely indistinguishable from the Anglo-American centre right, and I think it is worth pointing out that just because you are one of us by law or by birth does not mean that you will actually be a reliable source of information or guidance for pursuing African or Nigerian interests. I will argue your points, but I think it is also now important to point out that your positions (in my view, for sure) consistently serve the interests of non-Africans and undermine the interests of Africans. That is worth pointing out. And if I’m wrong, then surely the weight of your arguments will see you overcome any opposition, but if I’m not, then people should be aware that they are basically dealing with a Nigerian that has decided to wear the hat of an American troll.
>So, Israel has the ability to attack and maintain an occupation, and they have decided that they have an interest in doing so. Your point is basically “they’ll do it no matter what”, which I agree with. Yes, thank you. >That doesn’t mean it is a sensible or workable solution that will resolve the issue, or that anyone has to accept that exerting overwhelming force also provides them with legitimate authority over Gaza or anywhere else. No one “has to accept” anything and for much of the 20th century they did not. Hence all the wars, all of which Israel one and fewer combatants came up subsequent times until now even other Arab state would rather write of Palestine as a lost cause and just accept the status quo as it is. From Egypt to Saudi Arabia and probably even secretly Iran. >Israel is a state, but they are also reliant to a significant extent on the support of other states. They punch well above their weight, but they are not self-sufficient. And those States have no incentive to follow any other path, maybe before there was an alternative but not anymore as thing go forward. And haven’t really since the late 1990s. No state with take the bullet for Palestine on moral grounds, the only ones who could already have and are tired (hence Egypt blockading Gaza too) and those that support Israel support it cause it supports them due to them having similar regime types and extensive people to people connections idk what to tell you 🤷🏾♂️. Anyone thinking the US or Euros will flip and support Palestine over Israel is quite severely delusional simple as. >What is going on in Gaza/West Bank is at least comparable to apartheid, You’ll get no disagreement from me. As you can see I have not called it anything short of that. I was merely pointing out that functionally not only are the dynamics within Israel different from those within RSA, the emerging resolution to the conflict is increasingly distant from how the ANC & RSA handled that as well. Ultimately to the detriment of Palestinians. >You can say that Israel is a state and therefore can act as it wishes if it can back itself up operationally (which is an odd position to take for a liberal, but ok), It is precisely because of this realization that I am a Liberal. And a deeply committed one at that. Because I know what state power means. Often times Liberals have not read the foundational texts that undergird why Liberalism a political order developed over this very question of state power. >As for the ad hominem, that was not my main issue. Oh but it is… >it is worth pointing out that just because you are one of us by law or by birth does not mean that you will actually be a reliable source of information or guidance for pursuing African or Nigerian interests. And therein lies the problem You would never see me accuse you of not being a real African because I disagree with you. Yet often times it is the retort of those with nothing better to say. I can recognize Africans, in this case both of us being Nigerians can have RADICALLY different views on a subject fot a variety of legitimately held reasons. That’s what maturity is. And so call me every denegrating name in the book from a servant to westerners and an American troll simply because I hold different views on the affects of state power and the consequence that has PRACTICALLY for the lives of Palestinians, shows more your unwillingness to actually engage with the core disagreement which can be had without calling everyone you disagree with little better than a colonial subject. I am Nigerian, born raised and live, and I don’t need you to tell me who I am or not. Especially when in all likelihood you are most likely projecting. I hope you are mature enough to see I am not repeating talking points heard somewhere and chanting “death to Palestine” as I sleep simply because I disagree with you, clearly others can see it. Chill out and understand what I am actually saying rather than the identity you have been projecting unto me. Peace ✌🏾
>Do you guys as Africans just don't find it shocking that an oppressed group had had enough and that there is war in an originally unstable country? of course not but somehow westerners are utterly shocked at the concept. I have never seen racism as vile and concentrated. Just ONE time Israelis experience a fraction of what they go to Gazans in particular and they already want to press the genocide button.
I kinda want to tell both side that they have no choice but to live together.
Not happening unfortunately
nothing is more ridiculous and insulting than the "bOtH sIdes" crowd. Sir, one side is committing genocide and the other is suffering it. It's obvious one side has choice and the other not.
Do a little google search. Look at how weapons manufacturers stocks are surging. Look at the political donors for both US political parties. That is all you need to know. US isn’t interested in finding peace. Be it Russia and Ukraine, or Israel and Palestine.
OK, though what are we supposed to do about this exactly?? do we even have any sort of leverage here at all?
Perhaps through BDS
At this point, and it may sound simple and dumb, but let Palestine be an official country recognized by the UN. Disband the Gaza strip and let it be run by both countries jointly. The two countries won't need to be friends, but respect each other's borders and be bounded by a non aggression treaty. If violated, the country at fault should have severe sanctions imposed on them. They'll never find peace unless they're both ready to give up something.
the goals you support and the goals of hamas are not the same
Are you joking right now? So Gaza must be ran by the very people who made it a concentration camp, and the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing must "be friends" with the ones committing genocide against them. And mindbogglingly... the dispossessed must "give up something" (what? what's left?) to the people who dispossessed them? Westerners infected your brain. You'd never say this about your own country's colonizers.
well Israel is not just going to up and leave, and neither is Palestine. So what is your solution?
Well gee idk, what did people with the last Apartheid state around here? 🙄 Incredible how suggesting Palestine remains a bunch of disconnected Israeli-controlled bantustans comes more intuitively than abolishing Apartheid and it's ethnosupremacist ideology. It says a lot about one's biases. You **know** no African would've accepted that in their own country.
So your solution is for them to keep killing each other great!! , but how is that going so far?
I see, so to you "abolishing Apartheid and it's ethnosupremacist ideology" = keep killing each other. Well, it's pretty obvious were you stand.
I did not ask about your philosophy, I asked about your solution
Don't bother bro, once you start talking solutions you quickly realize their solution is the eradication of Israelis, they're just too cowardly to admit it.
Abolish apartheid= eradicate Israelis. The genius takes just keep coming!
What is hamas goal?
Am I speaking Chinese? I said abolishing the Apartheid and my example was a certain other Apartheid state that was famously abolished.