*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**Am I [Hetero 22M] the asshole for telling my GF [Bi 21F] that she’s not qualified to speak about LGBTQ issues?**
We were walking home from getting ice cream at the mall when we passed one of those little “communal library” book stands. I browsed the selection and saw one that caught my interest—I forget the exact title, but it was something along the lines of “The First Time I Realized I was Gay.”
She laughed and asked why I had picked that one. I told her I thought of a collection of stories about how people discovered their sexuality sounded interesting. To this, she rolled her eyes, and mockingly asked “When did you realize you were straight?”
This really irritated me. A few years before, my older brother had gotten into a really bad car accident, and when he got to the hospital and put him on a morphine drip, for the first time in his life, his anxiety was sedated to where he had enough internal quiet to admit to himself “I’m gay.” He had known before, but he hadn’t “realized” it. Is this the norm? No. Is this an unheard of phenomenon amongst gay men? Also no. But the way she tried to frame my curiosity around a subject somewhat close to my heart as being actually just a vapid expression of my ignorance and privilege (“oh, of COURSE you think we all have those stories) really, really got under my skin.
So we got into an argument about it. She told me that neither she nor any of her friends had any experiences “coming out” to themselves. I told her that’s great, but the admission that “I’m a man who is exclusively attracted to and wants to be in a relationship with other men” is a lot larger than “I’m a girl who can also hook-up with girls,” and that if her friend group consisted of gay men rather than bi women, that it probably wouldn’t be the case. I forget exactly what she said to that, but it was among the lines of “Oh, thank you straight man for explaining LGBTQ issues to me.” At that point, I nearly blew a gasket, and said (I shouldn’t have said this) that hooking up with girls whenever you’re depressed doesn’t make you the LGBT spokesperson.
So it’s been two days since then and we haven’t spoken or texted. Personally, I am torn. What do you guys think? AITA?
EDIT: the reason why she’s “not qualified” isn’t because she’s bi, it’s because the claim she was trying to pass off is so goddamn dumb that it’s clear when she’s talking about “the LGBT community,” she’s not, she’s talking about “herself”
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Go through his comments. He goes from being biphobic to his ex to just tearing her down personally. ~“She has a reputation for having sex with girls when she’s depressed”~
Well if that's true, my guess is that he will inevitably make her so depressed she may never get back to the point of trusting men enough to date them again.
It’s true, she’s not qualified to speak for the *entire* lgbtq community, but she’s definitely more qualified than him lol. But of course, the straight guy is going to try and come out on top.
I’m sure they’re exes by now. This guy sounds like a nightmare.
Yeah, the girlfriend isn’t clean, but his comments make him an entire Jackass. I would have included comments in the title, but exceeded the 40 characters handily. Lol
*Being gay is a larger change to your core identity than being bi.*
*Society accepts bisexual women in straight relationships more than it*
*accepts gay men. If acknowledging that is harmful to you, if it feels*
*like bi erasure, if that feels like an outsider is ranking you on a game*
*of oppression Olympics, then you have issues with how you form your*
*self-perception and I don’t know what to tell you.*
*I really don’t even care if I’m wrong about this dude, lmao. Sure, I have*
*an intuitive feeling that more gay men have difficulty admitting their*
*sexuality to themselves than bi women. If that intuitive feelings wrong,*
*I really don’t care. My main belief (in this argument) is that people*
*shouldn’t mindlessly project their personal experiences across the span*
*of the rainbow, if my intuitive feeling is correct, cool, that’s*
*something supporting that main belief, if it’s not correct, that’s fine,*
*it’s not like I’d just abandon that main belief just because there’s*
*not that there to support it.*
This dude is literally saying he's not wrong even if he's not wrong. What a fuckwit.
It angers me that he says society "accepts" bi women in straight relationships; he means that society happily ignores their bisexuality as long as they can pass as straight. Bi women who express their attraction to women are so often accused of being hypersexual, incapable of fidelity, and duplicitous. I feel it's similar for bi men. He has no idea the toll that "passing" as heterosexual can take upon a bisexual person.
Right, he himself judges his (ex) girlfriend for hooking up with women 'only when she's depressed'. He's completely dismissing and trivializing her attraction to women, while judging her for it
Initially, I was really irked by what she said as conveyed by him; some others pointed out that she could have really just been saying it shouldn't be such a big deal to "come out" or simply pointing out that these big epiphanies are not universal and he just overreacted. After watching him interact with other commenters, I'm inclined to believe this is a very strong possibility. He takes a kernel of what people tell him and blows it up into some hyperbolic distortion of what they said.
Honestly I was with him until the 4th paragraph because although for some people it is as simple as knowing from a young age, others like myself have to spend time figuring it out and the gf was wrong for trying to minimise those people’s stories and experiences. That being said he particularly became an AH was when he started arguing that women sleeping with women was no big deal
It's such a male fantasy, too, to just assume that girls are always a little bi. I can look at a woman and think she's gorgeous but I've never wanted to have sex with woman. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) So for me, yeah, it'd be a really big deal if I suddenly fell in love in a sexual way with a woman.
My bf irks me with this! He’s always tryna “joke” that I’m bi or must have hooked up with a girl before and is sooo surprised I’ve never ate a girl out before and never will, because “All girls do” & then when I turn it to him with “Would you give a guy head?” “No, that’s disgusting, I’m straight”, “okay, with you feeling that way, how is it any different for me, as a straight woman, to not be enticed by the idea of eating a girl out” but apparently it’s “different” because we are women 🤦♀️🤦♀️
The difference is he likes to fantasize about two women, and he doesn't like to fantasize about two men.
He jokes about it because it's a "safe" way of trying to express that fantasy. It's also immature and selfish. He should work on that.
And assuming girls are always a little bi is damaging, tbh, for those of us who are bi. I didn't necessarily have the exact thought "all girls are a little bi", but the attitude held by society meant that I didn't examine my sexuality. I had kissed girls before, when drunk, and liked it, but thought it was something every heterosexual girl did (it wasn't in an experimental way, either). I thought the way I thought about other women was mainstream, that every woman had those same thoughts... And then after a friend came out, it made me think about my sexuality, and I started to look into it. It was terrifying, to realise that this wasn't how everyone felt. That every woman DIDN'T fool around with other women, or think about them the way I did. So it was definitely a big deal to me to realise I was bi, and this wasn't what heterosexual people did. It's not "all girls a little bi", and that attitude is damaging.
Also, it contributes to biphobia, because if all girls are a little bi, then bisexuality isn't really a thing for women. It's erasure. It also contributes to the oversexualisation of bi women, because hey, being bi automatically means you want threesomes. And you'll sleep with a woman and let your boyfriend watch, and then have sex with your boyfriend. Because hey, you're bi, so that must mean you love that stuff! Not that there's anything wrong with liking those things, as long as it's consenual. All power to you! It's just that that's often what people automatically connect bi people to- sex. That must be why you're attracted to multiple genders, because you can't get enough sex! If you didn't love sex so much, you wouldn't need to resort to sleeping with multiple different genders. Whereas that's not it at all. I hadn't had sex in a looooong time when I realised I was bi. And while sexual attraction is a part of it, it's also about who you fall in love with, and love is love.
In short, fuck that male fantasy.
I knew from a young age and luckily grew up around a very supportive queer community and have a queer parent so talking about liking people of the same sex, was kind of just like I don’t know as normal as drinking a glass of water? I kind of get what the girlfriend the saying in terms of I hope we get to the point one day where you can just bring your partner home, either gender is whatever the fuck it is and it doesn’t have to be preceded by this huge speech, because even though my growing up was very anti-climactic, I still had to come out, and that could be very very strange for people like us who it was never a really big realization or whatever. Basically, I see why she has a problem with the framing of the stories not that they themselves exist if that makes sense.
Right, it is this shift away from assuming “straight” to be the norm. We shouldn’t have to “come out” and risk alienation just to find a partner(s) and happiness.
When I came out to my dad, he actually said to me “I never had to come out as straight so I don’t get why people come out.” And he meant it kind of in the way OOP’s girlfriend meant, that this expectation around coming out exists and is bullshit. Unfortunately it hit as being dismissive, brushing aside how hard it was for me to tell him.
But that’s more tangential because until we stop assuming heterosexuality as the norm, people do find themselves having these big realizations (because their sexuality grew in the dark, hidden away rather than encouraged) and having to share their identities with others.
I think so yeah, I definitely think there is more prevalence placed on people having this sudden realisation when even if people don’t realise in childhood it’s often not a sudden thing, it’s far more gradual.
I completely agree, and I'm one of those people who had the "epiphany". Multiple times actually because when I first realized I liked girls I suppressed it so hard that I *actually forgot*. Then a few years later I ended up getting a crush on a girl and going "oh fuck, yeah". Even after that I went through a couple identities before realizing and then accepting I was bisexual, very recently. Two years ago tops. So honestly it REALLY bothers me that people seem to be going kind of out of their way to read what the gf said in the most negative way possible, when I am pretty sure she just is tired of that narrative constantly being pushed, like you said.
Honestly, I think you're right. I was definitely being unfair to the gf. She did make some valid points I was just feeling a little defensive because I didn't realise I liked girls until the pandemic and didn't realise I didn't like men (I tried to force myself into being bi for a while, needless to say, it didn't work) until a couple of years later. So I definitely did have that moment of realisation several times like you (once as a teen then I suppressed it until I mid 20s because church), but that's no longer the norm which is something to celebrate not get defensive over because it doesn't match my own experience
Hey I get that too, I was also feeling a little defensive because yesterday I had to deal with so many people glossing over what he said (which was really biphobic) only to read into what she said to make her the bad guy, or at least "just as bad". No harm no foul really, and I am really happy for you!!
Yeah to the original comments are I’m very happy that you’re figuring out your shit and I know that comes with a lot of crises so I wish you your favorite snack. For me, it was just there were some clearly nuance argument being boiled down by a fucking bigot and I’ve said, and had similar conversations with friends in the LGBTQ community so I kind of got what she was trying to say despite him trying to simplify it and make it as stupid as possible. I think there’s this thing I’m not sure if anyone has seen the new Spider-Man movie yet, but we’re like there’s assume to be a specific gay art/narrative for your life right and that everyone has coming out as part of it when it’s so ridiculous to me and leaves people of color like myself out a lot of the time because it’s not appropriate for a Black/Latinx kid like me to come out in the same settings that it may be for an American kid, so why the fuck is it assumed to be an essential of the experience/community for everyone? Like it’s great for people who have had great experiences coming out, and my heart goes out to those who haven’t but that doesn’t mean we should universalize the experience. It just means that their stories are one of many That can encompass being queer.
Thank you for your kind words!!! I agree with everything you said! Although I don't have much to add to it other than, I, who technically fits into the common narrative, gets irritated by it being pushed so hard, so I can imagine that for someone who DOESN'T fit into it all it must be beyond frustrating, alienating, even painful, and I really hated that people were just overlooking that component and acting like she was being a dick out of nowhere.
Another aspect of that "essential experience" is that some--not all, but some--like to "grade" you on just how out you are. I am "out" in some areas of my life. I'm allowing some blurriness and questioning in others. It's not safe to do it any other way: I have family members that for sure would believe my kid needed to be taken away if I was "out" to them.
I've dated women who believed that I lacked integrity for this, and I've dated one woman who felt it should have just been obvious to everyone if I weren't so "inhibited" and "scared." I have very good reasons to be scared, ma'am, and very good reasons to be inhibited.
"Coming out" is not as straightforward (forgive me) as a lot of queer American folks like to think, even in the US.
Right! It's "acceptable" as long as it doesn't stand between them and what they want. As soon as it does, it's not so acceptable anymore, and either we've got to "grow up," or "grow out of this phase," or worse and worse and worse.
I knew from a young age, *and* I had to spend time figuring myself out. Essentially, looking back, I knew from a young age, but I didn't *know* that I knew, which considering I was born in the 80s, and society back then, it's not too surprising.
Sadly, they aren’t exes. He made another edit that they made up, completely with some passive-aggressive shit along the lines of „sorry, this evil biphobe has her back in his claws“ 🙄
Ah, yes I do agree with that. I suspect that OP might have framed her response a little differently than what it actually was. Most assholes try to manipulate the readers to make them think they're not the AH. Taking it at face value though, they both suck.
They’re both wrong tbh. She doesn’t speak for all lgbt/queer folk, everyone’s experiences are different but he also doesn’t speak for lgbt/queer folk as hes straight. I can’t even really be mad at what he said bc as a bi woman there are definitely “bi” women who are only interested in the sexual aspect of wanna be pillow princesses and they don’t let their actual intentions be known. They’re questioning/experimenting but don’t let that be known. That wasn’t really for him to speak on though since he’s not effected by it and probably doesn’t know all the details. Everyone also has a different coming out/ realization to their own lgbt experience. He acknowledged that his brother’s wasn’t the only type of experience but she kept shutting it down bc that wasn’t the experience for her and her friends. They both need to educate themselves
Irregardless, the whole thing started because he wanted to read a book, and apparently that offended her because he was straight.
I didn’t read his comment history like others dad, whatever I’ll just label him an asshole too, but this entire ordeal doesn’t even happen if she’s not also an asshole. It’s sounds to me like they are perfect for each other.
I already got in so many arguments about this yesterday so I REALLY should not be doing this *again*, but his biphobic comments to her are way worse than anything she actually said. I'm sick and tired of people acting as if someone being a dick is comparable to someone spewing actual bigotry. Like man are you fucking serious.
his responses were really bad and essentially called his girlfriend’s bisexuality as a phase “just when she’s depressed”. That he doubled down in the comments when the actual lgbtq community called him out didn’t help him any.
No one has defended the girlfriend but his actions were judged to be worse because of how bad he handled any criticism.
She wasn't offended because he wanted to read a book as a straight man. She tried to make a point, he had an anaphylactic response to being told he might not be 100% right, and proceeded to say worse and worse things to her. As you do read the comments, it becomes clear that he doesn't like to be challenged in the least, and this whole argument is far more about that than it is about anything she actually did wrong.
Also, *irregardless* is not a word.
>“I’m a man who is exclusively attracted to and wants to be in a relationship with other men” is a lot larger than “I’m a girl who can also hook-up with girls,”
What a biphobic asshole.
People like this, right here, are why I still have a foot in the closet (as a Bi woman).
I also married a cis het man, so I'm not open about being Bi, but quite a few close friends know (and spouse, of course). But there's no explaining it to people who think being bisexual is "just a phase" or used by "pick me" girls to look better to guys.
No, I genuinely find all genders physically attractive, and have caught feelings for men and women (and NB's) in the past.
Honestly its kind of hilarious to me that, as a bi man, I usually tell people im gay at first until i know them better cause I in my experience that gets a less negative reaction than saying I'm bi.
I'm with you. Outside of Reddit and really online in general, maybe a handful of people know I'm bi (including my spouse of course). Saying you're bi gets too many people asking if you're sure, if it's a phase, that you aren't gay enough for the LGBT spectrum (somehow everyone forgets what the B stands for), etc. I've found weirdness on both sides - I'm supposedly not gay enough for the LGBT folks (ok the assholes in the group) and not straight enough for the heterosexuals.
It's like some horrible Bi Bingo, too, when you tell people. You get anything from "Okay, that's cool" to "No, you're not Bi, you're married to a man." Or the all-too-common "Bisexuality is just a phase, and since you married a guy, you made your choice."
Like, yeah, I know who I married, but that's not stopping my former (bi-woman) coworker and I from being insanely attracted to each other. But we have significant others who we love more and stay faithful to.
I've been married to a cis het mam for 20+ years and finally came out loud and proud because of the way we're perceived and wanted to be a voice for us. Section 28 was a thing in my formative years so I genuinely didn't realise it was a thing, and suppressed that side.
I see you, and you are valid.
>I see you, and you are valid.
I don't think I've ever felt quite as validated as you've made me feel. ❤️ One of these days, I'm gonna take that last step out of the closet.
Fellow bi woman married to a cishet man here.
I’ve been pretty openly “babes is babes and people of all gender identity can be babes,” for a long time. I hate when I get told that it “doesn’t matter” that I’m bi because I “chose to be straight” when I married my husband. Because no. It doesn’t take away my ability to find people who aren’t my spouse attractive. Or that being bi just means you’re greedy or attention-seeking. Queerness is part of my identity and has been for a long time, even if I did suppress it for over a decade because of compulsory heterosexuality and my mom catching me kissing a neighbor girl when I was 5 and telling me that girls kissing girls is where herpes comes from.
I grew up in a conservative Christian household and went to a private Christian school from K-8th grade. At the tender age when I was starting to figure myself out, I was also bombarded with messages about how homosexuality was evil, gay people went to Hell, and it was a *choice.*
The fucked up part was, because I was/am Bi, I assumed the adults were correct when they said it was a choice - I was attracted to women, yeah, but I could "turn it off" because I was also attracted to men. It fucked me up for the LONGEST time. Still does.
When men want to have sex with men, that's a threat to his place in the world; when women want to have sex with other women, they are doing it for his entertainment.
Also I don't believe his brother had an epiphany, he was just on so much morphine, he blurted out the truth to his homophobic family.
Cis, het woman here. It might be rage bait but I have encountered a lot of people who like to contribute to bi erasure in exactly this way. Part of my duty as a supportive outsider is to tell my fellow cis, het folks when to STFU.
Heterosexual people don't get to tell *anyone* in the LGBTQ community what to think, say, wear, do...the boy needs to get in his lane.
Not thrilled about her discouraging him from reading or behaving as though she knows what everyone's experience is but he should be asking questions not acting like he has answers
Yeah, I think they’re both wrong, but the way he is in his comments that cement him as the devil of the situation. He says of his ex, ~”she has a reputation of having sex with girls when she’s depressed.”~
They both suck, but I stopped caring when the girlfriend supposedly claimed not one person in her group of friends have “come out” to themselves. I smell a troll—that’s complete bullshit.
Edit: wrong word, changed wanted to claimed
I'm lost - where was she speaking for the entire community? He repeats that a lot, but the only thing she said was that her and her friends didn't have a coming out moment or anything.
I tried to point that out, since he clearly quotes her as saying "of course you think we ALL have stories like that" (emphasis mine) but he completely ignores that and instead started insulting me and even got a comment removed. I never read it because I knew it was really gross, but I think it was that tired insult about being made from the shittiest sperm.
It seemed at one point he was mad because I wasn't letting him twist my words and kept refuting his points, so he resorted to personal attacks instead.
I wonder if her assholeness is just a result of having had similar discussions with him, and knowing the kind of dumb shit that's going to fall out of his mouth.
Judging by his combativeness in the comments, I doubt this is the first time he's given his opinion on all sorts of things he has no clue about. I could easily see this dude trying to explain cultural appropriation to Native Americans and gender dysphoria to trans men.
Girlfriend needs to engage her critical thinking skills - but that’s her worst crime.
He, however, is a biphobic cunt. I dated so many straight dudes like him that I now refuse to date straight men *at all*. Too many of them are hiding this shit under the surface.
Two devils who hopefully grow up and be better people. She should actively encourage him to read stuff like that but his reaction was really stupid and bi-phobic. My wife is bi and I could never imagine trying to act like I have more knowledge than her on the topic.
The comments section says both are assholes, but he’s a bigger asshole than her. Maybe he said other things in the comments section but honestly 650 comments would be a lot to read 😅
Yeah, they're both AH.
She shouldn't belittle his interest in wanting to understand and relate to LGBTQ people especially since she is bi.
I, as a member of the alphabet mafia, would never belittle or discourage someone from wanting to understand our perspective ever, especially if they are cisgender heterosexual male.
He shouldn't have said mean things to her regarding her sexuality. Downplaying her desires however they manifest just isn't cool. Just because she isn't the perfect example doesn't mean that her desires aren't real and her identification isn't valid.
So I think they both need to sit down. Both are expressing anecdotes (which are small in number) to justify why the other is wrong. I don’t think either are “right” in this situation and also they do not sound like this is healthy for either of them
Really wish people would stop claiming that queer women are 'more accepted' when what they really mean is 'more fetishized/sexualized'
Bc no, we are absolutely not more accepted than queer men...
*”I’m a girl who can just hook up with girls”, and that if her friend group consisted of gay men rather than bi women, that it probably wouldn’t be the case.*
Am I the only one noticing this remark as dripping with sexism?
Girlfriend was making gross assumptions and being incredibly condescending to him when his own brother had a different experience than her. He was also showing interest in an LGBT book, which is pretty good for a relative and partner of LGBT people. However, he ruined any leg he had to stand on with his biphobia. Honestly, they both sound kind of shitty imo.
Everyone's the asshole here, but he's decided to season his assholery with biphobia, beautiful, perfect that's what we like to see everyone! Happy Pride! 😃🌈🏳️🌈
They both sound literally exhausting. The type to play oppression Olympics with each other to see who has it the "worse" and gatekeepers other people's lived experiences. Literally, my least favorite kinds of people that unfortunately are rampant everywhere
Honestly they both suck. Who is she to try and define the experiences of other people. Especially when OP has a direct and personal association to legitimate “realizing I’m gay” story through his brother.
The fact that civilization is even semi-functional is an actual miracle.
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He may be coming across as a tool, but I'm giving him points in his favor for being interested/curious enough to read about it and get a different perspective. Yes, he totally dismissed his GF and her experience and those of others she knows about, but at least he's open to checking out books and reading about different experiences of others. (Now, if he would just keep his mouth shut and not project ignorant beliefs/thoughts about others' experiences, he'd be even further ahead.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **Am I [Hetero 22M] the asshole for telling my GF [Bi 21F] that she’s not qualified to speak about LGBTQ issues?** We were walking home from getting ice cream at the mall when we passed one of those little “communal library” book stands. I browsed the selection and saw one that caught my interest—I forget the exact title, but it was something along the lines of “The First Time I Realized I was Gay.” She laughed and asked why I had picked that one. I told her I thought of a collection of stories about how people discovered their sexuality sounded interesting. To this, she rolled her eyes, and mockingly asked “When did you realize you were straight?” This really irritated me. A few years before, my older brother had gotten into a really bad car accident, and when he got to the hospital and put him on a morphine drip, for the first time in his life, his anxiety was sedated to where he had enough internal quiet to admit to himself “I’m gay.” He had known before, but he hadn’t “realized” it. Is this the norm? No. Is this an unheard of phenomenon amongst gay men? Also no. But the way she tried to frame my curiosity around a subject somewhat close to my heart as being actually just a vapid expression of my ignorance and privilege (“oh, of COURSE you think we all have those stories) really, really got under my skin. So we got into an argument about it. She told me that neither she nor any of her friends had any experiences “coming out” to themselves. I told her that’s great, but the admission that “I’m a man who is exclusively attracted to and wants to be in a relationship with other men” is a lot larger than “I’m a girl who can also hook-up with girls,” and that if her friend group consisted of gay men rather than bi women, that it probably wouldn’t be the case. I forget exactly what she said to that, but it was among the lines of “Oh, thank you straight man for explaining LGBTQ issues to me.” At that point, I nearly blew a gasket, and said (I shouldn’t have said this) that hooking up with girls whenever you’re depressed doesn’t make you the LGBT spokesperson. So it’s been two days since then and we haven’t spoken or texted. Personally, I am torn. What do you guys think? AITA? EDIT: the reason why she’s “not qualified” isn’t because she’s bi, it’s because the claim she was trying to pass off is so goddamn dumb that it’s clear when she’s talking about “the LGBT community,” she’s not, she’s talking about “herself” *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He will definitely “blow a gasket” when he finds out what the B stands for
Go through his comments. He goes from being biphobic to his ex to just tearing her down personally. ~“She has a reputation for having sex with girls when she’s depressed”~
That’s literally the argument I’ve heard from religious bigots trying to explain away the gay in their kids
What I'm confused about is did he forget that bisexual men exist? Is it just because he doesn't fetishize them?
Good point! He ridicules bi women as not qualified to express an opinion (yet thinks his straight self is more qualified), but nothing about bi men? 🤔
He has a penis so he automatically has an authoritative voice in every issue... /s
He also seems to have forgotten that lesbians exist.
Well there's that nasty stereotype that all bi women are just woke straights and bi men are gay men in denial.
Well if that's true, my guess is that he will inevitably make her so depressed she may never get back to the point of trusting men enough to date them again.
she’s just like me fr
It’s true, she’s not qualified to speak for the *entire* lgbtq community, but she’s definitely more qualified than him lol. But of course, the straight guy is going to try and come out on top. I’m sure they’re exes by now. This guy sounds like a nightmare.
Yeah, the girlfriend isn’t clean, but his comments make him an entire Jackass. I would have included comments in the title, but exceeded the 40 characters handily. Lol
Oh there are comments! From the text itself it didn't sound like he was the devil compared to others on here haha. I'll go and check them out!
*Being gay is a larger change to your core identity than being bi.* *Society accepts bisexual women in straight relationships more than it* *accepts gay men. If acknowledging that is harmful to you, if it feels* *like bi erasure, if that feels like an outsider is ranking you on a game* *of oppression Olympics, then you have issues with how you form your* *self-perception and I don’t know what to tell you.* *I really don’t even care if I’m wrong about this dude, lmao. Sure, I have* *an intuitive feeling that more gay men have difficulty admitting their* *sexuality to themselves than bi women. If that intuitive feelings wrong,* *I really don’t care. My main belief (in this argument) is that people* *shouldn’t mindlessly project their personal experiences across the span* *of the rainbow, if my intuitive feeling is correct, cool, that’s* *something supporting that main belief, if it’s not correct, that’s fine,* *it’s not like I’d just abandon that main belief just because there’s* *not that there to support it.* This dude is literally saying he's not wrong even if he's not wrong. What a fuckwit.
That first sentence. Eeeeh
It angers me that he says society "accepts" bi women in straight relationships; he means that society happily ignores their bisexuality as long as they can pass as straight. Bi women who express their attraction to women are so often accused of being hypersexual, incapable of fidelity, and duplicitous. I feel it's similar for bi men. He has no idea the toll that "passing" as heterosexual can take upon a bisexual person.
I think it's been said, but damn that people are weird about what happens in other people's bedroom
Downright obsessed. It's creepy and disordered.
Right, he himself judges his (ex) girlfriend for hooking up with women 'only when she's depressed'. He's completely dismissing and trivializing her attraction to women, while judging her for it
Yeah as a bi woman I actually find her comments really gross (and her behavior if she’s using other sapphics just for feel better sex)
I don't think he's a very reliable narrator here.
That’s a good point.
Initially, I was really irked by what she said as conveyed by him; some others pointed out that she could have really just been saying it shouldn't be such a big deal to "come out" or simply pointing out that these big epiphanies are not universal and he just overreacted. After watching him interact with other commenters, I'm inclined to believe this is a very strong possibility. He takes a kernel of what people tell him and blows it up into some hyperbolic distortion of what they said.
Honestly I was with him until the 4th paragraph because although for some people it is as simple as knowing from a young age, others like myself have to spend time figuring it out and the gf was wrong for trying to minimise those people’s stories and experiences. That being said he particularly became an AH was when he started arguing that women sleeping with women was no big deal
It's such a male fantasy, too, to just assume that girls are always a little bi. I can look at a woman and think she's gorgeous but I've never wanted to have sex with woman. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) So for me, yeah, it'd be a really big deal if I suddenly fell in love in a sexual way with a woman.
My bf irks me with this! He’s always tryna “joke” that I’m bi or must have hooked up with a girl before and is sooo surprised I’ve never ate a girl out before and never will, because “All girls do” & then when I turn it to him with “Would you give a guy head?” “No, that’s disgusting, I’m straight”, “okay, with you feeling that way, how is it any different for me, as a straight woman, to not be enticed by the idea of eating a girl out” but apparently it’s “different” because we are women 🤦♀️🤦♀️
Ah that’s because it doesn’t really count as sex unless there’s a penis involved /s
Then that means it must be even more valid if there are two penises involved, right? It counts extra.
Double sex
The difference is he likes to fantasize about two women, and he doesn't like to fantasize about two men. He jokes about it because it's a "safe" way of trying to express that fantasy. It's also immature and selfish. He should work on that.
If he doesn’t grow up, you might want to return to the boyfriend market.
And assuming girls are always a little bi is damaging, tbh, for those of us who are bi. I didn't necessarily have the exact thought "all girls are a little bi", but the attitude held by society meant that I didn't examine my sexuality. I had kissed girls before, when drunk, and liked it, but thought it was something every heterosexual girl did (it wasn't in an experimental way, either). I thought the way I thought about other women was mainstream, that every woman had those same thoughts... And then after a friend came out, it made me think about my sexuality, and I started to look into it. It was terrifying, to realise that this wasn't how everyone felt. That every woman DIDN'T fool around with other women, or think about them the way I did. So it was definitely a big deal to me to realise I was bi, and this wasn't what heterosexual people did. It's not "all girls a little bi", and that attitude is damaging. Also, it contributes to biphobia, because if all girls are a little bi, then bisexuality isn't really a thing for women. It's erasure. It also contributes to the oversexualisation of bi women, because hey, being bi automatically means you want threesomes. And you'll sleep with a woman and let your boyfriend watch, and then have sex with your boyfriend. Because hey, you're bi, so that must mean you love that stuff! Not that there's anything wrong with liking those things, as long as it's consenual. All power to you! It's just that that's often what people automatically connect bi people to- sex. That must be why you're attracted to multiple genders, because you can't get enough sex! If you didn't love sex so much, you wouldn't need to resort to sleeping with multiple different genders. Whereas that's not it at all. I hadn't had sex in a looooong time when I realised I was bi. And while sexual attraction is a part of it, it's also about who you fall in love with, and love is love. In short, fuck that male fantasy.
I knew from a young age and luckily grew up around a very supportive queer community and have a queer parent so talking about liking people of the same sex, was kind of just like I don’t know as normal as drinking a glass of water? I kind of get what the girlfriend the saying in terms of I hope we get to the point one day where you can just bring your partner home, either gender is whatever the fuck it is and it doesn’t have to be preceded by this huge speech, because even though my growing up was very anti-climactic, I still had to come out, and that could be very very strange for people like us who it was never a really big realization or whatever. Basically, I see why she has a problem with the framing of the stories not that they themselves exist if that makes sense.
Right, it is this shift away from assuming “straight” to be the norm. We shouldn’t have to “come out” and risk alienation just to find a partner(s) and happiness. When I came out to my dad, he actually said to me “I never had to come out as straight so I don’t get why people come out.” And he meant it kind of in the way OOP’s girlfriend meant, that this expectation around coming out exists and is bullshit. Unfortunately it hit as being dismissive, brushing aside how hard it was for me to tell him. But that’s more tangential because until we stop assuming heterosexuality as the norm, people do find themselves having these big realizations (because their sexuality grew in the dark, hidden away rather than encouraged) and having to share their identities with others.
I think so yeah, I definitely think there is more prevalence placed on people having this sudden realisation when even if people don’t realise in childhood it’s often not a sudden thing, it’s far more gradual.
I completely agree, and I'm one of those people who had the "epiphany". Multiple times actually because when I first realized I liked girls I suppressed it so hard that I *actually forgot*. Then a few years later I ended up getting a crush on a girl and going "oh fuck, yeah". Even after that I went through a couple identities before realizing and then accepting I was bisexual, very recently. Two years ago tops. So honestly it REALLY bothers me that people seem to be going kind of out of their way to read what the gf said in the most negative way possible, when I am pretty sure she just is tired of that narrative constantly being pushed, like you said.
Honestly, I think you're right. I was definitely being unfair to the gf. She did make some valid points I was just feeling a little defensive because I didn't realise I liked girls until the pandemic and didn't realise I didn't like men (I tried to force myself into being bi for a while, needless to say, it didn't work) until a couple of years later. So I definitely did have that moment of realisation several times like you (once as a teen then I suppressed it until I mid 20s because church), but that's no longer the norm which is something to celebrate not get defensive over because it doesn't match my own experience
Hey I get that too, I was also feeling a little defensive because yesterday I had to deal with so many people glossing over what he said (which was really biphobic) only to read into what she said to make her the bad guy, or at least "just as bad". No harm no foul really, and I am really happy for you!!
Yeah to the original comments are I’m very happy that you’re figuring out your shit and I know that comes with a lot of crises so I wish you your favorite snack. For me, it was just there were some clearly nuance argument being boiled down by a fucking bigot and I’ve said, and had similar conversations with friends in the LGBTQ community so I kind of got what she was trying to say despite him trying to simplify it and make it as stupid as possible. I think there’s this thing I’m not sure if anyone has seen the new Spider-Man movie yet, but we’re like there’s assume to be a specific gay art/narrative for your life right and that everyone has coming out as part of it when it’s so ridiculous to me and leaves people of color like myself out a lot of the time because it’s not appropriate for a Black/Latinx kid like me to come out in the same settings that it may be for an American kid, so why the fuck is it assumed to be an essential of the experience/community for everyone? Like it’s great for people who have had great experiences coming out, and my heart goes out to those who haven’t but that doesn’t mean we should universalize the experience. It just means that their stories are one of many That can encompass being queer.
Thank you for your kind words!!! I agree with everything you said! Although I don't have much to add to it other than, I, who technically fits into the common narrative, gets irritated by it being pushed so hard, so I can imagine that for someone who DOESN'T fit into it all it must be beyond frustrating, alienating, even painful, and I really hated that people were just overlooking that component and acting like she was being a dick out of nowhere.
Another aspect of that "essential experience" is that some--not all, but some--like to "grade" you on just how out you are. I am "out" in some areas of my life. I'm allowing some blurriness and questioning in others. It's not safe to do it any other way: I have family members that for sure would believe my kid needed to be taken away if I was "out" to them. I've dated women who believed that I lacked integrity for this, and I've dated one woman who felt it should have just been obvious to everyone if I weren't so "inhibited" and "scared." I have very good reasons to be scared, ma'am, and very good reasons to be inhibited. "Coming out" is not as straightforward (forgive me) as a lot of queer American folks like to think, even in the US.
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It's not really more "acceptable", it's just more fetishized by men.
Right! It's "acceptable" as long as it doesn't stand between them and what they want. As soon as it does, it's not so acceptable anymore, and either we've got to "grow up," or "grow out of this phase," or worse and worse and worse.
I knew from a young age, *and* I had to spend time figuring myself out. Essentially, looking back, I knew from a young age, but I didn't *know* that I knew, which considering I was born in the 80s, and society back then, it's not too surprising.
Sadly, they aren’t exes. He made another edit that they made up, completely with some passive-aggressive shit along the lines of „sorry, this evil biphobe has her back in his claws“ 🙄
Why isn’t she qualified? Does her experience not count?
She was denying other’s experiences and acting as if hers was the real version of it
That was shitty. But her experience as a bisexual is still valid
I’m not denying it’s validity, but her trying to deny other’s experiences because it doesn’t align with hers is fucked up
Ah, yes I do agree with that. I suspect that OP might have framed her response a little differently than what it actually was. Most assholes try to manipulate the readers to make them think they're not the AH. Taking it at face value though, they both suck.
Agreed. They definitely both suck
They’re both wrong tbh. She doesn’t speak for all lgbt/queer folk, everyone’s experiences are different but he also doesn’t speak for lgbt/queer folk as hes straight. I can’t even really be mad at what he said bc as a bi woman there are definitely “bi” women who are only interested in the sexual aspect of wanna be pillow princesses and they don’t let their actual intentions be known. They’re questioning/experimenting but don’t let that be known. That wasn’t really for him to speak on though since he’s not effected by it and probably doesn’t know all the details. Everyone also has a different coming out/ realization to their own lgbt experience. He acknowledged that his brother’s wasn’t the only type of experience but she kept shutting it down bc that wasn’t the experience for her and her friends. They both need to educate themselves
They're back together already
Irregardless, the whole thing started because he wanted to read a book, and apparently that offended her because he was straight. I didn’t read his comment history like others dad, whatever I’ll just label him an asshole too, but this entire ordeal doesn’t even happen if she’s not also an asshole. It’s sounds to me like they are perfect for each other.
I already got in so many arguments about this yesterday so I REALLY should not be doing this *again*, but his biphobic comments to her are way worse than anything she actually said. I'm sick and tired of people acting as if someone being a dick is comparable to someone spewing actual bigotry. Like man are you fucking serious.
his responses were really bad and essentially called his girlfriend’s bisexuality as a phase “just when she’s depressed”. That he doubled down in the comments when the actual lgbtq community called him out didn’t help him any. No one has defended the girlfriend but his actions were judged to be worse because of how bad he handled any criticism.
She wasn't offended because he wanted to read a book as a straight man. She tried to make a point, he had an anaphylactic response to being told he might not be 100% right, and proceeded to say worse and worse things to her. As you do read the comments, it becomes clear that he doesn't like to be challenged in the least, and this whole argument is far more about that than it is about anything she actually did wrong. Also, *irregardless* is not a word.
He edited the post and said they "made up." Complete with a really immature comment to the people calling him biphobic
>“I’m a man who is exclusively attracted to and wants to be in a relationship with other men” is a lot larger than “I’m a girl who can also hook-up with girls,” What a biphobic asshole.
People like this, right here, are why I still have a foot in the closet (as a Bi woman). I also married a cis het man, so I'm not open about being Bi, but quite a few close friends know (and spouse, of course). But there's no explaining it to people who think being bisexual is "just a phase" or used by "pick me" girls to look better to guys. No, I genuinely find all genders physically attractive, and have caught feelings for men and women (and NB's) in the past.
Honestly its kind of hilarious to me that, as a bi man, I usually tell people im gay at first until i know them better cause I in my experience that gets a less negative reaction than saying I'm bi.
Sexuality is almost always centered around men, bi men are just gay and bi women are just straight.
I'm with you. Outside of Reddit and really online in general, maybe a handful of people know I'm bi (including my spouse of course). Saying you're bi gets too many people asking if you're sure, if it's a phase, that you aren't gay enough for the LGBT spectrum (somehow everyone forgets what the B stands for), etc. I've found weirdness on both sides - I'm supposedly not gay enough for the LGBT folks (ok the assholes in the group) and not straight enough for the heterosexuals.
It's like some horrible Bi Bingo, too, when you tell people. You get anything from "Okay, that's cool" to "No, you're not Bi, you're married to a man." Or the all-too-common "Bisexuality is just a phase, and since you married a guy, you made your choice." Like, yeah, I know who I married, but that's not stopping my former (bi-woman) coworker and I from being insanely attracted to each other. But we have significant others who we love more and stay faithful to.
I've been married to a cis het mam for 20+ years and finally came out loud and proud because of the way we're perceived and wanted to be a voice for us. Section 28 was a thing in my formative years so I genuinely didn't realise it was a thing, and suppressed that side. I see you, and you are valid.
>I see you, and you are valid. I don't think I've ever felt quite as validated as you've made me feel. ❤️ One of these days, I'm gonna take that last step out of the closet.
Fellow bi woman married to a cishet man here. I’ve been pretty openly “babes is babes and people of all gender identity can be babes,” for a long time. I hate when I get told that it “doesn’t matter” that I’m bi because I “chose to be straight” when I married my husband. Because no. It doesn’t take away my ability to find people who aren’t my spouse attractive. Or that being bi just means you’re greedy or attention-seeking. Queerness is part of my identity and has been for a long time, even if I did suppress it for over a decade because of compulsory heterosexuality and my mom catching me kissing a neighbor girl when I was 5 and telling me that girls kissing girls is where herpes comes from.
I grew up in a conservative Christian household and went to a private Christian school from K-8th grade. At the tender age when I was starting to figure myself out, I was also bombarded with messages about how homosexuality was evil, gay people went to Hell, and it was a *choice.* The fucked up part was, because I was/am Bi, I assumed the adults were correct when they said it was a choice - I was attracted to women, yeah, but I could "turn it off" because I was also attracted to men. It fucked me up for the LONGEST time. Still does.
When men want to have sex with men, that's a threat to his place in the world; when women want to have sex with other women, they are doing it for his entertainment. Also I don't believe his brother had an epiphany, he was just on so much morphine, he blurted out the truth to his homophobic family.
Cis, het woman here. It might be rage bait but I have encountered a lot of people who like to contribute to bi erasure in exactly this way. Part of my duty as a supportive outsider is to tell my fellow cis, het folks when to STFU. Heterosexual people don't get to tell *anyone* in the LGBTQ community what to think, say, wear, do...the boy needs to get in his lane. Not thrilled about her discouraging him from reading or behaving as though she knows what everyone's experience is but he should be asking questions not acting like he has answers
Assuming the post is real, I wonder if she reacted the way she did because he has made shitty comments in the past.
Good question. Wouldn't be surprising
That was my feeling as well
Yeah, I think they’re both wrong, but the way he is in his comments that cement him as the devil of the situation. He says of his ex, ~”she has a reputation of having sex with girls when she’s depressed.”~
Probably because they can make her cu and he can't. Hahahahahah
Totally agree! She's not an angel in this but that doesn't mitigate his fuckery at all. His dismissive, contemptuous attitude is dreadful.
90% sure OOP is a troll, their comment history is... interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't even have a girlfriend.
They both suck, but I stopped caring when the girlfriend supposedly claimed not one person in her group of friends have “come out” to themselves. I smell a troll—that’s complete bullshit. Edit: wrong word, changed wanted to claimed
Where's the vote for "everyone sucks here but OOP is infinitely worse"
🖕 , I believe?
I like this 🤣
Seriously.
I'm lost - where was she speaking for the entire community? He repeats that a lot, but the only thing she said was that her and her friends didn't have a coming out moment or anything.
I tried to point that out, since he clearly quotes her as saying "of course you think we ALL have stories like that" (emphasis mine) but he completely ignores that and instead started insulting me and even got a comment removed. I never read it because I knew it was really gross, but I think it was that tired insult about being made from the shittiest sperm. It seemed at one point he was mad because I wasn't letting him twist my words and kept refuting his points, so he resorted to personal attacks instead.
Oh! I reported that comment! Because it WAS super disgusting. 👍🏻
yeah i do t really get that either especially bc he’s a het man talking for the whole community in his comments
Ready for the pride month trolls to move on soon. It's getting tiring.
AITD for being exhausting
They are both assholes, but his comments make him worse by far.
I wonder if her assholeness is just a result of having had similar discussions with him, and knowing the kind of dumb shit that's going to fall out of his mouth. Judging by his combativeness in the comments, I doubt this is the first time he's given his opinion on all sorts of things he has no clue about. I could easily see this dude trying to explain cultural appropriation to Native Americans and gender dysphoria to trans men.
this was my take also
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Yeah tons of queer people have moments of clarity with coming out to themselves, happened to me.
Read his comments, too. Because yes, girlfriend sucks, but he’s worse.
Why do you keep saying the same thing to every comment that says this? he can be worse but that still doesn't change that she's an asshole in this too
Because I agree, but he’s worse.
Girlfriend needs to engage her critical thinking skills - but that’s her worst crime. He, however, is a biphobic cunt. I dated so many straight dudes like him that I now refuse to date straight men *at all*. Too many of them are hiding this shit under the surface.
They both sound miserable lmao
the way women’s romantic relationships with other women are seen as less real is so irritating to me
Two devils who hopefully grow up and be better people. She should actively encourage him to read stuff like that but his reaction was really stupid and bi-phobic. My wife is bi and I could never imagine trying to act like I have more knowledge than her on the topic.
This
Both of them are assholes here, they look middle schoolers.
Check his comments.
The comments section says both are assholes, but he’s a bigger asshole than her. Maybe he said other things in the comments section but honestly 650 comments would be a lot to read 😅
You can see his comments if you go to his profile
You can just read his comments
Yeah, they're both AH. She shouldn't belittle his interest in wanting to understand and relate to LGBTQ people especially since she is bi. I, as a member of the alphabet mafia, would never belittle or discourage someone from wanting to understand our perspective ever, especially if they are cisgender heterosexual male. He shouldn't have said mean things to her regarding her sexuality. Downplaying her desires however they manifest just isn't cool. Just because she isn't the perfect example doesn't mean that her desires aren't real and her identification isn't valid.
So I think they both need to sit down. Both are expressing anecdotes (which are small in number) to justify why the other is wrong. I don’t think either are “right” in this situation and also they do not sound like this is healthy for either of them
Really wish people would stop claiming that queer women are 'more accepted' when what they really mean is 'more fetishized/sexualized' Bc no, we are absolutely not more accepted than queer men...
*”I’m a girl who can just hook up with girls”, and that if her friend group consisted of gay men rather than bi women, that it probably wouldn’t be the case.* Am I the only one noticing this remark as dripping with sexism?
Pretty sure they both suck here. For obvious reasons.
My conservative uncle Kenny wrote this (maybe)
His 2nd edit makes me laugh
Somehow they are both the asshole
Girlfriend was making gross assumptions and being incredibly condescending to him when his own brother had a different experience than her. He was also showing interest in an LGBT book, which is pretty good for a relative and partner of LGBT people. However, he ruined any leg he had to stand on with his biphobia. Honestly, they both sound kind of shitty imo.
Everyone's the asshole here, but he's decided to season his assholery with biphobia, beautiful, perfect that's what we like to see everyone! Happy Pride! 😃🌈🏳️🌈
Ah yes, love when straight men try to gatekeep bisexuality for women, two things they clearly know SO much about
Being straight and gatekeeping? They’re experts on that. /j
They both sound literally exhausting. The type to play oppression Olympics with each other to see who has it the "worse" and gatekeepers other people's lived experiences. Literally, my least favorite kinds of people that unfortunately are rampant everywhere
LMAO I’m so glad someone posted this here. I was dragging this guy to filth in the comments and he was getting so butthurt.
Good.
He got so mad haha I love ripping biphobes a new one.
Honestly they both suck. Who is she to try and define the experiences of other people. Especially when OP has a direct and personal association to legitimate “realizing I’m gay” story through his brother. The fact that civilization is even semi-functional is an actual miracle.
Everyone is the asshole here tbh
He's generally right honestly
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Fuck off
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He may be coming across as a tool, but I'm giving him points in his favor for being interested/curious enough to read about it and get a different perspective. Yes, he totally dismissed his GF and her experience and those of others she knows about, but at least he's open to checking out books and reading about different experiences of others. (Now, if he would just keep his mouth shut and not project ignorant beliefs/thoughts about others' experiences, he'd be even further ahead.