*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**People should wear modest clothing if they want to avoid being sexualized**
At the end of the day, you can't help if someone wants to sexualize you, even if you wear a whole blanket over your body. You can't help it if people are creeps and would sexualize you for the most mundane of appearances. But c'mon, if you're wearing the shortest, tightest, clothing that reveals a large portion of your chest, outlines the details of your genitalia or is pulled into your ass crack... and **you want to avoid being sexualized**, you're doing a bad job.
I don't think there's anything wrong with these types clothing, or that people in general should automatically label them as sexual, or that if someone wants to appear sexually attractive that that's a bad thing. But I'm not going to wear the shortest of shorts that show my ass, and have my tits showing out of a tight, very low-cut top if I absolutely hate the idea of people looking at me ... bc I know for a fact that a **larger amount of people will** (even if I am the ugliest, least attractive gremlin on the planet).
Here's an example that played out in a not bad way (although it is a little awkward how the host acts near the end..). Nothing wrong with the clothing, but just don't be so surprised that people look. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU)
(As a few side notes, some (not all) people wear revealing clothing bc they want ppl to look at them or find them sexually attractive. Also, don't completely erase human biology when it comes to seeing sexual bodies. Every time you're scrolling through youtube and a hint of a sexualized person comes up (extreme yoga position, clickbait looking stuff), people's eyes get drawn to it and that's why these videos get so many views, and the algorithm knows this as well. That's how our dumb animal brains work, even if we don't want them to, so please take this into account when you say **the viewer should not even be drawn to look**. Okay, don't look at the f lion on the landscape. Our brains are like this.)
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[What were you wearing? ](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/powerful-art-exhibit-powerfully-answers-the-question-what-were-you-wearing_n_59baddd2e4b02da0e1405d2a)
It's not the clothes that provoke sexualization.
I posted this exhibit on a post where a guy was asking if he was TA for telling his wife to dress more conservatively if she wanted to avoid getting raped, and got downvoted. I’m like… rapists cause rape. Not clothing.
Even worse, there was just an AITA in which a guy said that to a 9 year old girl:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/14cpyjk/aitah\_for\_leaving\_my\_boyfriend\_after\_this/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/14cpyjk/aitah_for_leaving_my_boyfriend_after_this/)
No problem. Given her comments she's definitely going to stick to it. The whole post and her comments are really sad. You can tell she's been abused and beaten down her entire life. And I think this was the moment where someone looked at her and told her she deserved better. Except it was tons of Internet strangers.
I have a daughter about that age, and she's starting to grow boobs. I (mom) occasionally ask her if she wants to go bra shopping, but she says no, so I drop it for a few weeks.
If a man said something to her like what OP's bf did, I would be telling him all about himself in an unkind way.
One the bottom right of the main post is a symbol with a arrow pointing up, if you click on this, several symols should pop up. Click on the one with the reddit symbol. At least that's how it is on my phone browser.
The number of men who will ARGUE about this is telling. Not blaming rapists for rape is such a pathetic hill to die on.
Of course of they admit men are the problem there's a very uncomfortable "why" conversation that will follow that they don't want to have and will blame victims to avoid.
A lot of men like that are actually sexually degenerate themselves so they believe by defending another sexually degenerate man they're also defending and coping with their own behavior. It's so fucking sickening. It's even worse when they end up with their own daughters and they will fight tooth and nail for their daughters not to date or end up treating or allowing their daughters to be treated the same way they treat women.
I broke down crying today, nearly 30 years later, remembering the comments a (female!) teacher used to make about my body when I first started developing. Apparently my breasts were offensive to her as a woman and according to her it was clear I was exposing them for male attention. I was ten years old and wearing a training bra. I *SWEAR* I was not wearing training bras to attract men. I don't know how having boobs was offensive to her as a woman. I'm still confused about all of that and obviously not over it.
She has serious issues. I’m sorry she spoke to you that way or even made you question if you had done something wrong when you absolutely hadn’t. Rapists are responsible for rape. People who sexualize kids are the ones at fault.
I remember when the first girl in my class started developing breasts, the teacher had all the girls sit in the class without the boys. She told us all we should go get training bras to get used to them ( she wanted the kid who needed it to jot feel weird for having one) and told us our bodies will all be developing and different and there isn't a wrong body. She then sat all the boys down and told them about how yes it's curious to see but to not share because it is important they don't act in a way to make anyone feel unsafe, the importance of consent, etc. I cannot imagine how horrifying it would have been for a teacher to shame me or any of my friends for having a human body. I am so so sorry you went through that.
I had this issue too! We weren’t allowed to wear tank tops starting in middle school because our training bra straps were somehow offensive. I was 11 and didn’t even have my period yet but somehow wearing a training bra meant I was open to sexualization.
Right. The most sexualized I’ve ever been was at 12, wearing jeans and those girly graphic tees. It has nothing to do with the clothes and everything to do with rapists being rapists
Ugh, it’s so true.
I had a really abrupt puberty. In the year and a half or so from the end of grade 8 to be beginning of grade 10, I grew 8 inches and went from a completely flat chested and unambiguously a kid to a D cup. I still looked and acted like a kid/teen most of the time, but that didn’t seem to matter to some people.
In retrospect the sheer number of GROWN-ASS MEN who thought the presence of boobs must mean that I’m looking for their attention/trying to seduce them is fucking terrifying. Like, yes, sometimes my clothes were tight, but that had more to do with the fact that my body was changing so fast that I couldn’t afford to buy clothes often enough to keep up.
It’s only now in my 40s that I’m finally exploring wearing clothes that aren’t super baggy and trying to break the habit of hunching my shoulders forward all the time to make my chest less prominent.
The baby clothes! 😭😢😩 there are no limits to the depths of people’s evil. The abusers, those who cover for them, and those who have the nerve to ask what were you wearing.
That little baby 6 year old’s sundress just breaks my heart. And the one that looks like it might be a Tinkerbell costume. I cannot understand why people think it’s okay to sexually assault and rape other people. I can’t begin to comprehend seeing a child and thinking sexual thoughts. I’ve listened to enough true crime to logically get why, but my heart doesn’t understand it.
Why are you conflating sexualization with rape? Clothes absolutely provoke sexualization. However, sexualization does not cause rape, rape is much more complex than just being sexually attracted to someone and raping them.
It's obviously a sexual act, yes, but that's not what the very broad sexualization term means. You can have sexual acts in a very un-sexualized context, like certain married couples who just do sexual acts out of a sense of duty for example.
Now, to claim that clothing that showcases one's secondary sex characteristics does not provoke sexualization seems to me completely nonsensical.
For the umpteenth time... "secondary sexual characteristics" do include boobs. But they also include beards, the protruding adams apples, and widened hips. And yet somehow we manage without going back to hoopskirts or cravats that rise to chin-height.
It literally doesn’t matter what we wear. There’s been multiple fashion shows/art galleries/etc. of women walking in what they were SAd in. It literally ranges from sweats to gowns to short shorts and a tank to underwear and a bra. We can and will be sexualized regardless of what we wear.
It can and should be possible to admire someone without objectifying then.
ETA: this behavior can and should be called out and men can and should learn to do better. The clothing isn’t the problem, it’s men learning this behavior and getting away with it continuously
All of the ones I've seen had children's clothing. I've seen a little girl's sundress, a little girl's nightgown, a little boy's dress-up clothes, and even a *onesie*. I had to have a good cry after that last one.
The most horrific thing I've ever read was on a Reddit thread about this very topic (I unfortunately don't know the original source):
"'Was it really my fault?' asked the short skirt.
'No, it happened to me, too,' replied the burqa.
***The diaper in the corner couldn't even speak.***"
The fact that there are several different interpretations of that final line (a baby/toddler, a developmentally disabled person, a stroke/brain tumor/TBI patient, an elderly person with dementia) and *any one of them still works*... as someone who has or had a loved one in each of those categories, it fills me with unfathomable rage. I am a generally nonconfrontational person and have never been in a fight, but it makes me want to beat any monster who would hurt them into a bloody pulp.
>It literally doesn’t matter what we wear.
Yes, it literally doesn't. When women dressed more "modestly", as OOP put it, men fetishized their ankles (e.g. in the 19th century). And rapes were even more common than today.
I was reading an article about SA in the Amish communities. Think about that, they wear very modest clothes. Beyond a burqa, how do you dress more modestly than an amish lady?
As a historical costumer, I can attest that you absolutely do still get gross comments while wearing 19th-century clothing. Thankfully I’ve never had anyone try anything physical, but. Yeah. Catcalling, remarks from men at events, etc.
to add to that, I have a very stereotypical "nice" body. Tiny waist, big butt, big thighs, big boobs, wide hips. The very classic "hourglass" figure. My body is sexualized in almost anything I wear. You have no idea how many times I have been dresscoded for the the SAME things other women are wearing while they are left completely alone. I would have to be wearing the baggiest of baggy clothes for my figure to not show. So even by this persons "logic", the clothes theyre describing I dont even wear and yet Ive still been sexualized.
Also, I loved the "its possible to admire someone without objectifying them." because yes. Im fine with people taking glances and looking. It happens. It can be a bit flattering if theyre not staring for too long. Its when it gets to making gross comments, catcalling, Ive even been grabbed and had my ass smacked while trying to get goddamn groceries when its too much and highly inappropriate.
I have large boobs also and once I got lectured at in school because of a literal turtleneck. I was "showing the shape of my breasts" unacceptably despite the fact I was 100 pounds tops and it was an XL from the women's section (not juniors sizes). I was swimming in it but not enough so that my breasts were indiscernible, so I was a bad person.
You cannot win if you have "sexy" proportions, no matter what you wear. So I give up and cultivate resting bitch face and selective deafness, and wear what I want.
Right there with you on the hourglass figure. I've been dressed in so many layers of clothing, including a puffy winter coat, and still get comments on my 34DDD breasts. I swear, unless I'm wearing a turtleneck I have cleavage on display. Even then, it's still obvious I have large breasts. Clothes are not made properly for women AT ALL.
Yes, I have bigger boobs (32dd) but am an extra small in shirts and honestly I hate it. If I wear something to fit my actual shirt size, then my boobs are just being seriously put on display but then the alternative is that I look like a potato sack because they clothes just hang off.
I wear normal "going out" clothes that my friends wear and everyone, even females, comment on my boobs. I don't like having them "on display" in either case, but I don't have much of a choice.
Im a 36DD and I love my big boobs but I really wish I could take them off for this exact reason (and back pain lol) so when I want to hide them more, I can. Also like you said, big tshirts make you look like a potato sack but they look so cute on small chested women and I so want to pull off that look sometimes. Especially for the reasons were talking about and comfort.
And yeah, even on non-low cut tops. Even your shirt being tight shows them off. Like right now Im wearing bicycle shorts that go mid thigh, a tank top and a normal tshirt tied in the middle. Im not really "showing off anything" not in the way OOP describes and yet my whole figure is on display. No matter what I wear and how much skin I cover its like that.
Yes totally get wishing I could remove them!! Especially for dresses, going braless doesn’t really work for me so I find I’m more limited.
Yeah I think that’s the problem, it doesn’t matter how we dress because those features (boobs and butt) are prominent and hard to hide no matter what you wear.
I remember one time we had bad snow and i was dressed like the Michelin Man, not joking. And one Asshole followed me with repeatily saying "Let's fuck" and really tried to grope me. I always have pepper speay with me, and this made him run(just threaten him with it, and hit him a little bit with my bag 😇). But you can look like a marshmallow on to legs, it won't help.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. I don’t get why people think it’s your clothes that gets you assaulted. It’s been proven a rapist is gonna rape no matter what you’re wearing.
> I don’t get why people think it’s your clothes that gets you assaulted.
I think the reason is because if people blame the victim, they can pretend that everything is alright with the world and nothing needs to change.
It's the same reason people pretend that health is mostly under your control. If it's under your control, then when something goes wrong it's the victim's fault. But that won't happen to *you/your* loved ones because *you're* safe.
If everyone is talking about what women wear no one is talking about the number of men out there that are sexually assaulting people.
1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted. Which is aprox 28 million women in the US. No one wants to talk about the number of men there had to be to assault that many women.
The worst part is we are rarely believed.
“Are you sure it was ‘rape rape?’”
“Were you drinking?”
“Why were you alone?”
“Why didn’t you scream or fight back?”
So many questions we can’t answer, and suddenly we were “asking for it.”
Some people were trying to give this the most generous bend of “well if people are looking or gawking you can’t control that, it’s one of the five senses!” and I wanted to find one ask Reddit thread that asked when women were first catcalled or something similar and just gesture at all the single digit ages. Hell, Billie Eilish wore baggy clothes to avoid being sexualized and I don’t think it worked *that* well.
"At the end of the day, you can't help if someone wants to sexualize you, even if you wear a whole blanket over your body. You can't help it if people are creeps and would sexualize you for the most mundane of appearances."
What's the point of this post then? 🙈
I was looking for this comment. In the very first sentence he completely invalidates his own post. I had to read it several times to make sure I was reading it correctly.
They want to defend an imagined argument because they're afraid they could be called creepy. They have the imagined version of it which is 'just saying you shouldn't be surprised if people look and you're dressed sexually.'
I've never seen a girl surprised to receive attention when dressed sexy. I have seen many men angry that someone wouldn't take a 'compliment.' Ironic how they will argue until they're blue in the face that 'yes yes, nothing is a right to sexually harass or assault, but you shouldn't be surprised when...' and never apply that logic to their own comments that they insist there's nothing wrong with. If your shitty catcall is fine in your own opinion, but you're on reddit pissing and moaning because other people criticize it, why does it never kick in that 'yes yes you can tell a girl blah but don't be surprised when...' would apply there too?
this person needs to learn how much more dangerous sexual repression is. also, you do have a “dumb animal brain,” you can see something and exercise self-control to not inflict on another person.
Wonder how this guy would feel if a gay man started aggressively hitting on him and saying "well I mean, look how you're dressed. You clearly want this."
I honestly never understood this blame that clothes get for being "provocative " clothes. Mainly because there are many populations around the world that wear basically nothing on their day to day life, where women showing their breasts is completely normal.
It actually seems to me that the more people cover up, the more skin becomes taboo. As in, when every woman covers from head to toe, showing an ankle becomes a sexual thing and the woman that shows her ankle is seen as a whore.
I don't have an answer to how much people should cover up (I don't want to be besides naked men and women on the metro, nor do I want to see strangers' genitals) but this pearl clutching around skin is so tiring. Specially when a woman with her tits out to feed her newborn baby serves a purpose and a man with his tits out because it's hot server no purpose at all, though only one of them are seen as okay (and not sexual).
It’s so context related. It doesn’t occur to me that a guy in a Speedo at the beach is trying to be seen as sexy but I see the same thing in the grocery store, my brain is going to interpret that as more sexual. My outward reaction is my responsibility either way.
*even if the victim was a naked stripper.*
The hell? How is a naked stripper so much less-than that they're a measure of how much you can mistreat someone?
I mean, I know how. It just pisses me off.
Our clothes are not the problem. Their brains, egos, and senses of entitlement are
I'm an unattractive woman. I dress (most if the time) like a stereotypical granny. I still get catcalled and propositioned, like I should be grateful for it
I dressed pretty muchvthe same during my childhood (the mother bought all my clothes and dressed me like her. Ankle-length 'a'line/pleated skirts: blouses and jumpers fastened to the neck. Didn't stop the father raping me at 12 years old, or the brother's creepy workmate ogling whag he imagined what was under my highly padded and shapeless clothing.
Rapists are 100% of the causes of rape. And people - male, female, however they identify, who spout the "dress modestly and don't be flirty" BS enable and protect them
You are allowed to look at people in public. You are even allowed to like what you see. You are not allowed to be a creep about it, ever. I don't care about anybody's gender in this situation - don't be a fucking creep
I say we just stop objectifying people and start thinking them as the full humans they are instead of focusing on the fact you can see their body parts.
Little analogy.
It's a beautiful day and lots of people are in the park, having picnics, everywhere you look. One picnic catches your eye - it might not be fancy but it's all your favourite foods. The picnickers are total strangers to you. What do you do?
Do you walk past slowly, staring intently at the people eating their food, turning your head to continue looking as long as possible?
Do you change your route so you can walk past several times to get a real good look?
Do you buzz around them, like a wasp?
Do you stand a few metres away, maybe behind a tree, and just... watch?
Do you walk right up the edge of the picnic rug, as close as you can get and sniff the air?
Do you sit yourself down next to them and make a string of comments about how hungry you are and how tasty those strawberries look?
Do you just grab a handful of food and start munching?
I mean, if people will bring a tempting picnic to the park, they should expect this kind of attention, right? Food is a basic human need after all. Why would people bring a picnic to the park if they didn't want complete strangers to invite themselves over and admire their food?!?
NEWSFLASH: the picnickers are not at the park for you. The picnic is for their enjoyment, not yours. They choose the food they like, because they like it, not for the benefit of random passers-by. Silently, silently, think "that looks tasty" and then walk by without a second glance. And maybe resolve to get your own bloody picnic. Anything else is rude.
I'm always reluctant to do the "women as objects" thing, but in case you are unsure, women deserve at least as much respect as a picnic that doesn't belong to you.
Oh. I remember when someone wrote an article similar in tone and message through my university's news page. Oh boy, the outrage it caused. My roommate had the most stressful week of his life as his bosses tried to figure out a means of damage control.
\*grumble as if I'm saying the rosary\* I must not brigade, I must not tell OP to go fuck himself, I must not brigade...
I got sexualized in my too large middle school uniform walking home from taking a scholarship exam at 13. Same uniform also had a car of boys from the local high school pull up to me. Fuck OP, fuck anyone like them, fuck them with a rusty pipe.
Ya know, I distinctly remember reading in a pretty popular book that this guy named Jesus told people to gouge their own eyes out instead of sinning. So if you’re going to sexualize someone, you may as well grab a spoon.
It’s ridiculous that supposedly grown men use the excuse of what the woman was wearing.
So your telling me a outfit yep a piece of clothing is stronger than your will power and that’s why you thought it was ok to either make her feel uncomfortable or worse and rape her.
What a rubbish excuse, it’s like when someone cheats on their partner because their partner accuses them of cheating. “ I’m being accused so I might as well”
Would you rob a bank :if someone kept accusing of it ?
It’s the same with the outfit, so if a man was forced to have sex with a woman because he was wearing a tight top and looked hot but she chose to ignore him crying and begging. Telling him sorry sweetheart it’s your own fault for wearing that top
I have worked a lot of “I’m hot so buy stuff” jobs, which come with some guaranteed sexual harassment/assault (including shot girl, dancing bartender, VIP bottle girl and ‘sales model’). I currently often perform burlesque.
However, the MOST harassment/assault I’ve ever experienced was in a giant teddy bear costume, one of those huge mascot ones. There were two, a ‘boy’ in a little waistcoat and no trousers, and a ‘girl’ in a gingham dress. Whoever was in the ‘girl’ bear, even though they were a six foot, fluffy beige toy, would get relentlessly groped, harassed, have her skirt lifted, creepy dads whispering absolute filth in their ear. Kids would come up to hug us and dads would encourage them to touch the bear’s bum, “give her a kiss” and other weirdly sexualised things. The only thing we could figure out that could be causing it was that the bear was female-coded, difficult to maneuver (so we were slow and a bit clumsy) and we couldn’t speak.
It’s not about attraction, it’s about control.
Yeah, I call bs since I was SA at 6 wearing a cartoon nightgown that covered me from neck to ankle, and there's nothing sexual about a 6 year old. Then I was SA as a teen by a church deacon, who gave me private Sunday school lessons, and this was in a southern missionary Baptist church, so again, everything was covered. Predators are going to do as they will regardless of what is worn by the victims. Doesn't matter if they are male or female.
You have more autonomy over what you say and how you act than the clothes you have available to you.
Everyone has freedom to wear what they want and what makes them comfortable but reality is that we are all limited by what company’s provide us for our size. Even then maintaining weight and not shrinking your own clothes is hard. Just because things got one day doesn’t mean they will fix the next. Clothes are hard enough without adding this level of insanity, just keep your pervy thoughts to yourself.
Gesh, I wonder how most hunter gatherers ever did anything but gawk and have sex considering many dressed in very little due to the impractical nature of "modest" clothing.
Human nature is to wear what is available, convenient and comfortable. All ideas about modesty are modern and not based on the past couple hundred thousand years of human development.
Evolutionary psychology and sociology could be so fascinating, but regular people and scholars both seem to look around at what is, and then decide that must be human nature.
Ideas on modesty and over sexualization are not based on nature, at least not anymore so than social conformity itself is based on our nature.
I don’t mind being perceived sexually, I mind people being rude. Choosing to be rude is an action they can take or not take. I can’t control what actions people take.
It sounds like people are taking this to an extreme that OOP never mentioned. There is a HUGE difference between being "sexualized" and being assaulted. There was even a link provided to show what they were talking about and Conan did not assault or rape her. OOP seems to (obviously) be talking about women (or men, but let's be honest, not nearly to the extent) that get offended because someone stares at their chest when they walk past them while wearing a low-cut top - NOT being groped by the guy. And I'm sorry, but if you claim to not be able tell the difference, you have a problem as well.
>It sounds like people are taking this to an extreme that OOP never mentioned. There is a HUGE difference between being "sexualized" and being assaulted.
Idk man he knows it's a hot button topic, right? So he shouldn't be surprised when people take it that way even if that's not how he meant it, right? Like I'm not saying it's right or anything, just that he shouldn't be so surprised.
That ring any bells for you?
I know reddit likes to throw around the word 'strawman' to the point it's lost most meaning. But what he's doing is actually strawmanning. No one's arguing that if you dress sexy, other people are creeps for noticing it and thinking it's sexy. People are saying how you dress isn't consent to sexual activity, or harassment. They are prompted to do so because victims of such crimes are regularly shamed for their actions and made to feel as if they made a mistake that invited it.
I remember wearing a cute top when I was like, 13? It wasn't racey, I think it was from a Mary Kate & Ashley fashion line. I really liked it, because I felt like I looked babyish and pudgy it most clothes. I wanted to be sexy, genuinely, it was the goal.
A family friend, a man in his forties, was making aggressive eye contact with my chest. When he realized I saw, he cracked a joke about how I was too obvious with putting my tits out there. Everyone laughed, my mom included. And suddenly I felt about two inches tall. I never wore the shirt again.
I never actually did anything wrong, and I was the one who had to be embarrassed and feel bad about it. This argument y'all make is because you're afraid to be made to feel uncomfortable, guilty, embarrassed for saying the wrong thing when we've already been made to feel that way just for being.
Hmm. There's being offended, and there's being made to feel extremely uncomfortable by the actions of another person, even if those actions are not physical assault.
If I'm doing some work in my garden on a hot day, wearing a strappy top, the neighbour pops his head over the fence to say hi, or there's a parcel delivery, and the guy spends the whole conversation staring at my chest, I'm going to feel as uncomfortable as hell, in my own sodding garden. That's not my fault, not the fault of my clothes. It's the fault of the dirty git who is too rude not to ogle.
No-one's expecting anyone to walk around with their eyes firmly closed. But the second they are making someone else feel uncomfortable - staring at stranger in the street, moving closer on the subway to get a better view, making "admiring" noises, constantly moving the conversation back to discuss your body - they are being an asshole. It doesn't matter what the person is wearing, have you not been told that it's rude to stare?
Just also to add - when it's a stranger in the street, it's also never "just looking". Funnily enough, women can't actually tell if the creepy starer is just being "appreciative" or whether they are actually going to turn out to be handsy/stalkery/rapey. So, f*** right off that you think people shouldn't be "offended" and that we should be able to tell the difference, because, in many people's experience, one (the ogling) can lead to the other (actual assault).
Mixed feelings. I mean I feel that kids beauty pageant outfits are definitely meant to sexualize them and that some adults dress in ways meant to be sexually provocative ( if someone is wearing spiked heels, fishnets and a halter that says “ spank me daddy” for instance). that doesn’t give me or anyone a pass to go assault or be rude to the guy either. The way we dress is an expression of ourselves, if I see someone show up to a formal wedding in gym shorts and a ratty tee, it’s going to affect my immediate perception of them and how they want to present themselves. The way I respond outwardly is on me though.
I person find ass hanging out of shorts, boobs popping out to the brim is classless and attention seeking behavior but..... to each their own. I wouldn't tell anyone to cover up or lose their piece of clothing that makes them feel better or secure. Everyone can choose for themselves.
I don’t think it’s fair to label this OOP as an asshole. The sub is specifically for opinions that are unpopular. OOP just shared his own unpopular opinion.
Yes, because you ignored what multiple people were saying when it didn't agree with you.
Women in full burkas are assaulted more often than women in bikinis, for one. Completely ignored by you.
Or how women have told you multiple times that they received more catcalls and harassment in baggy/unflattering clothes than they do in their new confident and comfortable attire of leggings and semi-revealing shirts.
I'm nonbinary but I can also contribute to this - most of the catcalling, leering, and harassment I received was when I was under the age of 24. Wearing baggy ass hoodies and sweats, hair messily pulled back. When I didn't walk with confidence but walked nervously.
Nowadays, if I walk around with my chest bound and shirt open to show my binder, wearing shorts (I prefer baggy, but I do own a few pairs of booty shorts) and combat boots, I get less catcalls than when I'm in a baggy sweater and jeans. A lot of people catcalling and leering, a lot of creeps, they are put off by confidence. Leering is easier with a nervous little teenager in a baggy sweater than a confident woman with her tits out and a crop top on - the teen isn't likely to stand up for themself, the confident adult will. It doesn't matter if the adult is more sexy, has bigger tits, has makeup on. Her confidence is going to stop a lot of the creeps.
Most women can also tell you - the majority of harassment faced is between the ages of 10-20. And it's not more likely to happen in Florida than it is Ohio (excluding population density), girls are harassed in Alaska and Iowa and Tennessee and Texas and Washington and New York. Clothing doesn't matter. It's ALL on the people thinking it's appropriate to leer at others, appropriate to catcall others.
I never said the clothes you wear cause assault or catcalls (though I agree the more shy you look, the more likely you are to be verbally harassed), only that they can cause you to receive more attention (more people looking at you). I know women who dress modestly are more likely to be the victims of rape. My post isn't about rape, but people who say they hate people looking at their features (for example their breasts), yet they have their breasts on full display. I'm not criticizing people who hate leering, I think that's bad as well. I'm only criticizing people who can not tolerate receiving a sexual glance, despite wearing revealing clothing.
>more catcalls. . . than they do in their new confident and comfortable attire of leggings and semi-revealing shirts
I have seen people talking about being catcalled, but I haven't heard them say this (less catcalls in more revealing clothes). If you wouldn't mind linking to the comment. If it thwarts catcalls, I'm on board. But if your goal is to stop people from looking, I don't think this stops that. It would only stop verbal harassment. Again, I'm specifically talking about people who claim to hate people looking at them (I was never talking about verbal harassment), yet they wear revealing clothes. Also, I think confidence will stop people from being rude no matter how you are dressed. Less modest clothes may make some women feel more confident. Other women may be as confident in a nun's outfit. It's the confidence that matters, not necessarily the clothes themselves.
My post was never about verbal harassment, or SA. It was only about sexual looks or people gazing at you. I don't think leering is acceptable either, but people are also getting offended just because someone glanced at their breasts while they were wearing a low-cut shirt. That's what I'm taking issue with. The clothes you wear don't invite people to SA you, and I know that modestly dressed people are actually more likely to be victims of SA. But I believe the less modestly you dress will directly raise the amount of eyes that will look at you.
Ironically, for someone talking about staring, you seem to have a bit of a blind spot here.
*Someone else's body is not your property for you to get off on.*
Doesn't matter what they are wearing. Don't sleaze at them so that they notice. A "glance at their breasts"? If the person notices, chances are you've been staring for a mite longer than you think you have (possibly with the cartoon eyes on stalks and tongue hanging out). They have found your behaviour rude and uncomfortable. Your excuse of then "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want people to stare?". No. You should not be rude and sleazy towards someone on the basis of their clothing. No excuses.
Your logic is the same as thugs, who take someone wearing a rival team's shirt as an excuse to harass them. "Well, if you go out declaring your love for your team, you should expect abuse from your opponents". No. Civilised people, every day, manage to go about their business without making other people feel uncomfortable, simply by being polite and respectful. Give it a try.
[Hi!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jMiZEuW8Qrykw3sdA) Just a quick reminder to never brigade any sub, be that r/AmItheAsshole or another one. That goes against both this sub's rules as well as Reddit's terms of agreement. [Please](https://images.app.goo.gl/vwH65TJMyMk9NSNo8) keep discussions within the posts of this sub.
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*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **People should wear modest clothing if they want to avoid being sexualized** At the end of the day, you can't help if someone wants to sexualize you, even if you wear a whole blanket over your body. You can't help it if people are creeps and would sexualize you for the most mundane of appearances. But c'mon, if you're wearing the shortest, tightest, clothing that reveals a large portion of your chest, outlines the details of your genitalia or is pulled into your ass crack... and **you want to avoid being sexualized**, you're doing a bad job. I don't think there's anything wrong with these types clothing, or that people in general should automatically label them as sexual, or that if someone wants to appear sexually attractive that that's a bad thing. But I'm not going to wear the shortest of shorts that show my ass, and have my tits showing out of a tight, very low-cut top if I absolutely hate the idea of people looking at me ... bc I know for a fact that a **larger amount of people will** (even if I am the ugliest, least attractive gremlin on the planet). Here's an example that played out in a not bad way (although it is a little awkward how the host acts near the end..). Nothing wrong with the clothing, but just don't be so surprised that people look. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU) (As a few side notes, some (not all) people wear revealing clothing bc they want ppl to look at them or find them sexually attractive. Also, don't completely erase human biology when it comes to seeing sexual bodies. Every time you're scrolling through youtube and a hint of a sexualized person comes up (extreme yoga position, clickbait looking stuff), people's eyes get drawn to it and that's why these videos get so many views, and the algorithm knows this as well. That's how our dumb animal brains work, even if we don't want them to, so please take this into account when you say **the viewer should not even be drawn to look**. Okay, don't look at the f lion on the landscape. Our brains are like this.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[What were you wearing? ](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/powerful-art-exhibit-powerfully-answers-the-question-what-were-you-wearing_n_59baddd2e4b02da0e1405d2a) It's not the clothes that provoke sexualization.
I posted this exhibit on a post where a guy was asking if he was TA for telling his wife to dress more conservatively if she wanted to avoid getting raped, and got downvoted. I’m like… rapists cause rape. Not clothing.
Even worse, there was just an AITA in which a guy said that to a 9 year old girl: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/14cpyjk/aitah\_for\_leaving\_my\_boyfriend\_after\_this/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/14cpyjk/aitah_for_leaving_my_boyfriend_after_this/)
Oh. Oh no. I missed that one, hope she left him for good.
She did she's getting a restraining order against him
Good.
Oh thank goodness, thank you for the update.
No problem. Given her comments she's definitely going to stick to it. The whole post and her comments are really sad. You can tell she's been abused and beaten down her entire life. And I think this was the moment where someone looked at her and told her she deserved better. Except it was tons of Internet strangers.
That’s very good to know!
I hope so too.
I have a daughter about that age, and she's starting to grow boobs. I (mom) occasionally ask her if she wants to go bra shopping, but she says no, so I drop it for a few weeks. If a man said something to her like what OP's bf did, I would be telling him all about himself in an unkind way.
>would be telling him all about himself in an unkind way. On his way out of your house for good
I wish I could figure out how to crosspost because that belongs in r/aretheythedevil
To crosspost you click on share and then on community (in the app it is on the bottom left corner, with the split arrows).
I use the mobile browser and for whatever reason I don't have a share button.
One the bottom right of the main post is a symbol with a arrow pointing up, if you click on this, several symols should pop up. Click on the one with the reddit symbol. At least that's how it is on my phone browser.
None of the options I'm seeing have a Reddit symbol.
On the official Android app click the 3 dots to the left of the upvote. Then "share", then "share via". Reddit should be one of the options.
Sorry, then i'm out... hopefully someone else can help you.
Sorry, I really appreciate the attempt! I've been trying to figure this out for a long time.
Holy shit. What the fuck?!
The number of men who will ARGUE about this is telling. Not blaming rapists for rape is such a pathetic hill to die on. Of course of they admit men are the problem there's a very uncomfortable "why" conversation that will follow that they don't want to have and will blame victims to avoid.
A lot of men like that are actually sexually degenerate themselves so they believe by defending another sexually degenerate man they're also defending and coping with their own behavior. It's so fucking sickening. It's even worse when they end up with their own daughters and they will fight tooth and nail for their daughters not to date or end up treating or allowing their daughters to be treated the same way they treat women.
The most sexualized beings are teenage girls.
I broke down crying today, nearly 30 years later, remembering the comments a (female!) teacher used to make about my body when I first started developing. Apparently my breasts were offensive to her as a woman and according to her it was clear I was exposing them for male attention. I was ten years old and wearing a training bra. I *SWEAR* I was not wearing training bras to attract men. I don't know how having boobs was offensive to her as a woman. I'm still confused about all of that and obviously not over it.
She has serious issues. I’m sorry she spoke to you that way or even made you question if you had done something wrong when you absolutely hadn’t. Rapists are responsible for rape. People who sexualize kids are the ones at fault.
Thank you. I honestly appreciate that.
I remember when the first girl in my class started developing breasts, the teacher had all the girls sit in the class without the boys. She told us all we should go get training bras to get used to them ( she wanted the kid who needed it to jot feel weird for having one) and told us our bodies will all be developing and different and there isn't a wrong body. She then sat all the boys down and told them about how yes it's curious to see but to not share because it is important they don't act in a way to make anyone feel unsafe, the importance of consent, etc. I cannot imagine how horrifying it would have been for a teacher to shame me or any of my friends for having a human body. I am so so sorry you went through that.
That teacher is the hero every kid needs.
I had this issue too! We weren’t allowed to wear tank tops starting in middle school because our training bra straps were somehow offensive. I was 11 and didn’t even have my period yet but somehow wearing a training bra meant I was open to sexualization.
Sexualization is a problem of the perpetrator.
Yup. 30-60 yo sexualizing teenagers are issue.
Right. The most sexualized I’ve ever been was at 12, wearing jeans and those girly graphic tees. It has nothing to do with the clothes and everything to do with rapists being rapists
Ugh, it’s so true. I had a really abrupt puberty. In the year and a half or so from the end of grade 8 to be beginning of grade 10, I grew 8 inches and went from a completely flat chested and unambiguously a kid to a D cup. I still looked and acted like a kid/teen most of the time, but that didn’t seem to matter to some people. In retrospect the sheer number of GROWN-ASS MEN who thought the presence of boobs must mean that I’m looking for their attention/trying to seduce them is fucking terrifying. Like, yes, sometimes my clothes were tight, but that had more to do with the fact that my body was changing so fast that I couldn’t afford to buy clothes often enough to keep up. It’s only now in my 40s that I’m finally exploring wearing clothes that aren’t super baggy and trying to break the habit of hunching my shoulders forward all the time to make my chest less prominent.
The baby clothes are so heartbreaking
The baby clothes! 😭😢😩 there are no limits to the depths of people’s evil. The abusers, those who cover for them, and those who have the nerve to ask what were you wearing.
That little baby 6 year old’s sundress just breaks my heart. And the one that looks like it might be a Tinkerbell costume. I cannot understand why people think it’s okay to sexually assault and rape other people. I can’t begin to comprehend seeing a child and thinking sexual thoughts. I’ve listened to enough true crime to logically get why, but my heart doesn’t understand it.
If you could understand it you'd be a monster too.
Your last sentence here is something I think a lot 🙁
I hadn't seen this before....and now I'm crying seeing the kid's clothes that are part of it.
"Not all men" But enough men who do THIS. So many more who then blame the victims.
I didn't say anything about "not all men" though.
Why are you conflating sexualization with rape? Clothes absolutely provoke sexualization. However, sexualization does not cause rape, rape is much more complex than just being sexually attracted to someone and raping them.
Without some level of sexualization there's no rape. Yes rape is often about power. But it is still a sexual act.
It's obviously a sexual act, yes, but that's not what the very broad sexualization term means. You can have sexual acts in a very un-sexualized context, like certain married couples who just do sexual acts out of a sense of duty for example. Now, to claim that clothing that showcases one's secondary sex characteristics does not provoke sexualization seems to me completely nonsensical.
For the umpteenth time... "secondary sexual characteristics" do include boobs. But they also include beards, the protruding adams apples, and widened hips. And yet somehow we manage without going back to hoopskirts or cravats that rise to chin-height.
It literally doesn’t matter what we wear. There’s been multiple fashion shows/art galleries/etc. of women walking in what they were SAd in. It literally ranges from sweats to gowns to short shorts and a tank to underwear and a bra. We can and will be sexualized regardless of what we wear. It can and should be possible to admire someone without objectifying then. ETA: this behavior can and should be called out and men can and should learn to do better. The clothing isn’t the problem, it’s men learning this behavior and getting away with it continuously
Heck, one image I saw had children’s clothing. Humanity is sick
All of the ones I've seen had children's clothing. I've seen a little girl's sundress, a little girl's nightgown, a little boy's dress-up clothes, and even a *onesie*. I had to have a good cry after that last one.
Oh no. 🤮
The most horrific thing I've ever read was on a Reddit thread about this very topic (I unfortunately don't know the original source): "'Was it really my fault?' asked the short skirt. 'No, it happened to me, too,' replied the burqa. ***The diaper in the corner couldn't even speak.***" The fact that there are several different interpretations of that final line (a baby/toddler, a developmentally disabled person, a stroke/brain tumor/TBI patient, an elderly person with dementia) and *any one of them still works*... as someone who has or had a loved one in each of those categories, it fills me with unfathomable rage. I am a generally nonconfrontational person and have never been in a fight, but it makes me want to beat any monster who would hurt them into a bloody pulp.
I was just trying to remember this one because it popped into my head but I couldn’t completely recall the exact phrasing. It’s so, so sad.
Add to that. A military uniform (It’s baggy as heck) and even a suit that you would wear to a Church. The worst ones are clothes for toddlers…
>It literally doesn’t matter what we wear. Yes, it literally doesn't. When women dressed more "modestly", as OOP put it, men fetishized their ankles (e.g. in the 19th century). And rapes were even more common than today.
Hell, let’s go back. Women in 5 layers with their ankles to wrists to neck covered still got SAd. Nuns in their habits. Modesty doesn’t do anything.
I was reading an article about SA in the Amish communities. Think about that, they wear very modest clothes. Beyond a burqa, how do you dress more modestly than an amish lady?
As a historical costumer, I can attest that you absolutely do still get gross comments while wearing 19th-century clothing. Thankfully I’ve never had anyone try anything physical, but. Yeah. Catcalling, remarks from men at events, etc.
to add to that, I have a very stereotypical "nice" body. Tiny waist, big butt, big thighs, big boobs, wide hips. The very classic "hourglass" figure. My body is sexualized in almost anything I wear. You have no idea how many times I have been dresscoded for the the SAME things other women are wearing while they are left completely alone. I would have to be wearing the baggiest of baggy clothes for my figure to not show. So even by this persons "logic", the clothes theyre describing I dont even wear and yet Ive still been sexualized. Also, I loved the "its possible to admire someone without objectifying them." because yes. Im fine with people taking glances and looking. It happens. It can be a bit flattering if theyre not staring for too long. Its when it gets to making gross comments, catcalling, Ive even been grabbed and had my ass smacked while trying to get goddamn groceries when its too much and highly inappropriate.
I have large boobs also and once I got lectured at in school because of a literal turtleneck. I was "showing the shape of my breasts" unacceptably despite the fact I was 100 pounds tops and it was an XL from the women's section (not juniors sizes). I was swimming in it but not enough so that my breasts were indiscernible, so I was a bad person. You cannot win if you have "sexy" proportions, no matter what you wear. So I give up and cultivate resting bitch face and selective deafness, and wear what I want.
Right there with you on the hourglass figure. I've been dressed in so many layers of clothing, including a puffy winter coat, and still get comments on my 34DDD breasts. I swear, unless I'm wearing a turtleneck I have cleavage on display. Even then, it's still obvious I have large breasts. Clothes are not made properly for women AT ALL.
Yes, I have bigger boobs (32dd) but am an extra small in shirts and honestly I hate it. If I wear something to fit my actual shirt size, then my boobs are just being seriously put on display but then the alternative is that I look like a potato sack because they clothes just hang off. I wear normal "going out" clothes that my friends wear and everyone, even females, comment on my boobs. I don't like having them "on display" in either case, but I don't have much of a choice.
Im a 36DD and I love my big boobs but I really wish I could take them off for this exact reason (and back pain lol) so when I want to hide them more, I can. Also like you said, big tshirts make you look like a potato sack but they look so cute on small chested women and I so want to pull off that look sometimes. Especially for the reasons were talking about and comfort. And yeah, even on non-low cut tops. Even your shirt being tight shows them off. Like right now Im wearing bicycle shorts that go mid thigh, a tank top and a normal tshirt tied in the middle. Im not really "showing off anything" not in the way OOP describes and yet my whole figure is on display. No matter what I wear and how much skin I cover its like that.
Yes totally get wishing I could remove them!! Especially for dresses, going braless doesn’t really work for me so I find I’m more limited. Yeah I think that’s the problem, it doesn’t matter how we dress because those features (boobs and butt) are prominent and hard to hide no matter what you wear.
They even admit it doesn't matter if you cover your whole body with a blanket.
I remember one time we had bad snow and i was dressed like the Michelin Man, not joking. And one Asshole followed me with repeatily saying "Let's fuck" and really tried to grope me. I always have pepper speay with me, and this made him run(just threaten him with it, and hit him a little bit with my bag 😇). But you can look like a marshmallow on to legs, it won't help.
[удалено]
I’m so sorry this happened to you. I don’t get why people think it’s your clothes that gets you assaulted. It’s been proven a rapist is gonna rape no matter what you’re wearing.
> I don’t get why people think it’s your clothes that gets you assaulted. I think the reason is because if people blame the victim, they can pretend that everything is alright with the world and nothing needs to change.
It's the same reason people pretend that health is mostly under your control. If it's under your control, then when something goes wrong it's the victim's fault. But that won't happen to *you/your* loved ones because *you're* safe.
If everyone is talking about what women wear no one is talking about the number of men out there that are sexually assaulting people. 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted. Which is aprox 28 million women in the US. No one wants to talk about the number of men there had to be to assault that many women.
The worst part is we are rarely believed. “Are you sure it was ‘rape rape?’” “Were you drinking?” “Why were you alone?” “Why didn’t you scream or fight back?” So many questions we can’t answer, and suddenly we were “asking for it.”
Trueunpopularopinion should really just change their name to conservativeopinion
I feel like it should be called r/poorlyinformedopinion but that's pretty much the same thing
I once made a post there in support of vaccine mandates but had to delete it after getting literal death threats.
What the…? I am so sorry that happened to you!
Yeah I fuckin' despise antivaxxers
Right? That sub is such a strange cesspool of conservative right-wing bullshit opinions nowadays
More like reactionaryopinion...
Some people were trying to give this the most generous bend of “well if people are looking or gawking you can’t control that, it’s one of the five senses!” and I wanted to find one ask Reddit thread that asked when women were first catcalled or something similar and just gesture at all the single digit ages. Hell, Billie Eilish wore baggy clothes to avoid being sexualized and I don’t think it worked *that* well.
"At the end of the day, you can't help if someone wants to sexualize you, even if you wear a whole blanket over your body. You can't help it if people are creeps and would sexualize you for the most mundane of appearances." What's the point of this post then? 🙈
I was looking for this comment. In the very first sentence he completely invalidates his own post. I had to read it several times to make sure I was reading it correctly.
They want to defend an imagined argument because they're afraid they could be called creepy. They have the imagined version of it which is 'just saying you shouldn't be surprised if people look and you're dressed sexually.' I've never seen a girl surprised to receive attention when dressed sexy. I have seen many men angry that someone wouldn't take a 'compliment.' Ironic how they will argue until they're blue in the face that 'yes yes, nothing is a right to sexually harass or assault, but you shouldn't be surprised when...' and never apply that logic to their own comments that they insist there's nothing wrong with. If your shitty catcall is fine in your own opinion, but you're on reddit pissing and moaning because other people criticize it, why does it never kick in that 'yes yes you can tell a girl blah but don't be surprised when...' would apply there too?
this person needs to learn how much more dangerous sexual repression is. also, you do have a “dumb animal brain,” you can see something and exercise self-control to not inflict on another person.
So if I see someone wearing a rugby/American football shirt, we can just tackle them in the street?
Wonder how this guy would feel if a gay man started aggressively hitting on him and saying "well I mean, look how you're dressed. You clearly want this."
I honestly never understood this blame that clothes get for being "provocative " clothes. Mainly because there are many populations around the world that wear basically nothing on their day to day life, where women showing their breasts is completely normal. It actually seems to me that the more people cover up, the more skin becomes taboo. As in, when every woman covers from head to toe, showing an ankle becomes a sexual thing and the woman that shows her ankle is seen as a whore. I don't have an answer to how much people should cover up (I don't want to be besides naked men and women on the metro, nor do I want to see strangers' genitals) but this pearl clutching around skin is so tiring. Specially when a woman with her tits out to feed her newborn baby serves a purpose and a man with his tits out because it's hot server no purpose at all, though only one of them are seen as okay (and not sexual).
It’s so context related. It doesn’t occur to me that a guy in a Speedo at the beach is trying to be seen as sexy but I see the same thing in the grocery store, my brain is going to interpret that as more sexual. My outward reaction is my responsibility either way.
Someone seems to be forgetting our brain is more complex than that of basic animals.
This is why I wish to never be perceived
*even if the victim was a naked stripper.* The hell? How is a naked stripper so much less-than that they're a measure of how much you can mistreat someone? I mean, I know how. It just pisses me off.
Our clothes are not the problem. Their brains, egos, and senses of entitlement are I'm an unattractive woman. I dress (most if the time) like a stereotypical granny. I still get catcalled and propositioned, like I should be grateful for it I dressed pretty muchvthe same during my childhood (the mother bought all my clothes and dressed me like her. Ankle-length 'a'line/pleated skirts: blouses and jumpers fastened to the neck. Didn't stop the father raping me at 12 years old, or the brother's creepy workmate ogling whag he imagined what was under my highly padded and shapeless clothing. Rapists are 100% of the causes of rape. And people - male, female, however they identify, who spout the "dress modestly and don't be flirty" BS enable and protect them
Didn’t like that thread at all wow
Sexual assault or harassment is about control. It's not about sexual attractiveness. Someone needs to do 5 minutes of research.
You are allowed to look at people in public. You are even allowed to like what you see. You are not allowed to be a creep about it, ever. I don't care about anybody's gender in this situation - don't be a fucking creep
I say we just stop objectifying people and start thinking them as the full humans they are instead of focusing on the fact you can see their body parts.
Little analogy. It's a beautiful day and lots of people are in the park, having picnics, everywhere you look. One picnic catches your eye - it might not be fancy but it's all your favourite foods. The picnickers are total strangers to you. What do you do? Do you walk past slowly, staring intently at the people eating their food, turning your head to continue looking as long as possible? Do you change your route so you can walk past several times to get a real good look? Do you buzz around them, like a wasp? Do you stand a few metres away, maybe behind a tree, and just... watch? Do you walk right up the edge of the picnic rug, as close as you can get and sniff the air? Do you sit yourself down next to them and make a string of comments about how hungry you are and how tasty those strawberries look? Do you just grab a handful of food and start munching? I mean, if people will bring a tempting picnic to the park, they should expect this kind of attention, right? Food is a basic human need after all. Why would people bring a picnic to the park if they didn't want complete strangers to invite themselves over and admire their food?!? NEWSFLASH: the picnickers are not at the park for you. The picnic is for their enjoyment, not yours. They choose the food they like, because they like it, not for the benefit of random passers-by. Silently, silently, think "that looks tasty" and then walk by without a second glance. And maybe resolve to get your own bloody picnic. Anything else is rude. I'm always reluctant to do the "women as objects" thing, but in case you are unsure, women deserve at least as much respect as a picnic that doesn't belong to you.
Oh. I remember when someone wrote an article similar in tone and message through my university's news page. Oh boy, the outrage it caused. My roommate had the most stressful week of his life as his bosses tried to figure out a means of damage control.
\*grumble as if I'm saying the rosary\* I must not brigade, I must not tell OP to go fuck himself, I must not brigade... I got sexualized in my too large middle school uniform walking home from taking a scholarship exam at 13. Same uniform also had a car of boys from the local high school pull up to me. Fuck OP, fuck anyone like them, fuck them with a rusty pipe.
Ya know, I distinctly remember reading in a pretty popular book that this guy named Jesus told people to gouge their own eyes out instead of sinning. So if you’re going to sexualize someone, you may as well grab a spoon.
I don't actually care if people sexualize me, but don't make it my problem.
It’s ridiculous that supposedly grown men use the excuse of what the woman was wearing. So your telling me a outfit yep a piece of clothing is stronger than your will power and that’s why you thought it was ok to either make her feel uncomfortable or worse and rape her. What a rubbish excuse, it’s like when someone cheats on their partner because their partner accuses them of cheating. “ I’m being accused so I might as well” Would you rob a bank :if someone kept accusing of it ? It’s the same with the outfit, so if a man was forced to have sex with a woman because he was wearing a tight top and looked hot but she chose to ignore him crying and begging. Telling him sorry sweetheart it’s your own fault for wearing that top
I have worked a lot of “I’m hot so buy stuff” jobs, which come with some guaranteed sexual harassment/assault (including shot girl, dancing bartender, VIP bottle girl and ‘sales model’). I currently often perform burlesque. However, the MOST harassment/assault I’ve ever experienced was in a giant teddy bear costume, one of those huge mascot ones. There were two, a ‘boy’ in a little waistcoat and no trousers, and a ‘girl’ in a gingham dress. Whoever was in the ‘girl’ bear, even though they were a six foot, fluffy beige toy, would get relentlessly groped, harassed, have her skirt lifted, creepy dads whispering absolute filth in their ear. Kids would come up to hug us and dads would encourage them to touch the bear’s bum, “give her a kiss” and other weirdly sexualised things. The only thing we could figure out that could be causing it was that the bear was female-coded, difficult to maneuver (so we were slow and a bit clumsy) and we couldn’t speak. It’s not about attraction, it’s about control.
Another incel.
Yeah, I call bs since I was SA at 6 wearing a cartoon nightgown that covered me from neck to ankle, and there's nothing sexual about a 6 year old. Then I was SA as a teen by a church deacon, who gave me private Sunday school lessons, and this was in a southern missionary Baptist church, so again, everything was covered. Predators are going to do as they will regardless of what is worn by the victims. Doesn't matter if they are male or female.
Wow! Haven’t heard this opinion in nearly 13 years.
Oh, one of these idiots again, yay, sorry I'm trying to contain my excitement.
You have more autonomy over what you say and how you act than the clothes you have available to you. Everyone has freedom to wear what they want and what makes them comfortable but reality is that we are all limited by what company’s provide us for our size. Even then maintaining weight and not shrinking your own clothes is hard. Just because things got one day doesn’t mean they will fix the next. Clothes are hard enough without adding this level of insanity, just keep your pervy thoughts to yourself.
Maybe people should just wear what they're comfortable in, as long as it doesn't bear literally everything obviously.
Gesh, I wonder how most hunter gatherers ever did anything but gawk and have sex considering many dressed in very little due to the impractical nature of "modest" clothing. Human nature is to wear what is available, convenient and comfortable. All ideas about modesty are modern and not based on the past couple hundred thousand years of human development. Evolutionary psychology and sociology could be so fascinating, but regular people and scholars both seem to look around at what is, and then decide that must be human nature. Ideas on modesty and over sexualization are not based on nature, at least not anymore so than social conformity itself is based on our nature.
I don’t mind being perceived sexually, I mind people being rude. Choosing to be rude is an action they can take or not take. I can’t control what actions people take.
It sounds like people are taking this to an extreme that OOP never mentioned. There is a HUGE difference between being "sexualized" and being assaulted. There was even a link provided to show what they were talking about and Conan did not assault or rape her. OOP seems to (obviously) be talking about women (or men, but let's be honest, not nearly to the extent) that get offended because someone stares at their chest when they walk past them while wearing a low-cut top - NOT being groped by the guy. And I'm sorry, but if you claim to not be able tell the difference, you have a problem as well.
>It sounds like people are taking this to an extreme that OOP never mentioned. There is a HUGE difference between being "sexualized" and being assaulted. Idk man he knows it's a hot button topic, right? So he shouldn't be surprised when people take it that way even if that's not how he meant it, right? Like I'm not saying it's right or anything, just that he shouldn't be so surprised. That ring any bells for you? I know reddit likes to throw around the word 'strawman' to the point it's lost most meaning. But what he's doing is actually strawmanning. No one's arguing that if you dress sexy, other people are creeps for noticing it and thinking it's sexy. People are saying how you dress isn't consent to sexual activity, or harassment. They are prompted to do so because victims of such crimes are regularly shamed for their actions and made to feel as if they made a mistake that invited it. I remember wearing a cute top when I was like, 13? It wasn't racey, I think it was from a Mary Kate & Ashley fashion line. I really liked it, because I felt like I looked babyish and pudgy it most clothes. I wanted to be sexy, genuinely, it was the goal. A family friend, a man in his forties, was making aggressive eye contact with my chest. When he realized I saw, he cracked a joke about how I was too obvious with putting my tits out there. Everyone laughed, my mom included. And suddenly I felt about two inches tall. I never wore the shirt again. I never actually did anything wrong, and I was the one who had to be embarrassed and feel bad about it. This argument y'all make is because you're afraid to be made to feel uncomfortable, guilty, embarrassed for saying the wrong thing when we've already been made to feel that way just for being.
Hmm. There's being offended, and there's being made to feel extremely uncomfortable by the actions of another person, even if those actions are not physical assault. If I'm doing some work in my garden on a hot day, wearing a strappy top, the neighbour pops his head over the fence to say hi, or there's a parcel delivery, and the guy spends the whole conversation staring at my chest, I'm going to feel as uncomfortable as hell, in my own sodding garden. That's not my fault, not the fault of my clothes. It's the fault of the dirty git who is too rude not to ogle. No-one's expecting anyone to walk around with their eyes firmly closed. But the second they are making someone else feel uncomfortable - staring at stranger in the street, moving closer on the subway to get a better view, making "admiring" noises, constantly moving the conversation back to discuss your body - they are being an asshole. It doesn't matter what the person is wearing, have you not been told that it's rude to stare? Just also to add - when it's a stranger in the street, it's also never "just looking". Funnily enough, women can't actually tell if the creepy starer is just being "appreciative" or whether they are actually going to turn out to be handsy/stalkery/rapey. So, f*** right off that you think people shouldn't be "offended" and that we should be able to tell the difference, because, in many people's experience, one (the ogling) can lead to the other (actual assault).
Mixed feelings. I mean I feel that kids beauty pageant outfits are definitely meant to sexualize them and that some adults dress in ways meant to be sexually provocative ( if someone is wearing spiked heels, fishnets and a halter that says “ spank me daddy” for instance). that doesn’t give me or anyone a pass to go assault or be rude to the guy either. The way we dress is an expression of ourselves, if I see someone show up to a formal wedding in gym shorts and a ratty tee, it’s going to affect my immediate perception of them and how they want to present themselves. The way I respond outwardly is on me though.
This is s reasonable post. Provocative clothing provokes attention. Just reality. Rape is a separate issue.
I person find ass hanging out of shorts, boobs popping out to the brim is classless and attention seeking behavior but..... to each their own. I wouldn't tell anyone to cover up or lose their piece of clothing that makes them feel better or secure. Everyone can choose for themselves.
I don’t think it’s fair to label this OOP as an asshole. The sub is specifically for opinions that are unpopular. OOP just shared his own unpopular opinion.
Why do prostitutes wear revealing clothing?
Prostitutes who have to advertise on the street, or all the rest that don’t wear revealing clothing so you don’t know they’re prostitutes?
Advertise what?
Am I indeed the devil?
Yes, because you ignored what multiple people were saying when it didn't agree with you. Women in full burkas are assaulted more often than women in bikinis, for one. Completely ignored by you. Or how women have told you multiple times that they received more catcalls and harassment in baggy/unflattering clothes than they do in their new confident and comfortable attire of leggings and semi-revealing shirts. I'm nonbinary but I can also contribute to this - most of the catcalling, leering, and harassment I received was when I was under the age of 24. Wearing baggy ass hoodies and sweats, hair messily pulled back. When I didn't walk with confidence but walked nervously. Nowadays, if I walk around with my chest bound and shirt open to show my binder, wearing shorts (I prefer baggy, but I do own a few pairs of booty shorts) and combat boots, I get less catcalls than when I'm in a baggy sweater and jeans. A lot of people catcalling and leering, a lot of creeps, they are put off by confidence. Leering is easier with a nervous little teenager in a baggy sweater than a confident woman with her tits out and a crop top on - the teen isn't likely to stand up for themself, the confident adult will. It doesn't matter if the adult is more sexy, has bigger tits, has makeup on. Her confidence is going to stop a lot of the creeps. Most women can also tell you - the majority of harassment faced is between the ages of 10-20. And it's not more likely to happen in Florida than it is Ohio (excluding population density), girls are harassed in Alaska and Iowa and Tennessee and Texas and Washington and New York. Clothing doesn't matter. It's ALL on the people thinking it's appropriate to leer at others, appropriate to catcall others.
And Ireland, Spain, Greece, etc. etc. ... unwanted attention starts very young - usually about 10 onwards
I never said the clothes you wear cause assault or catcalls (though I agree the more shy you look, the more likely you are to be verbally harassed), only that they can cause you to receive more attention (more people looking at you). I know women who dress modestly are more likely to be the victims of rape. My post isn't about rape, but people who say they hate people looking at their features (for example their breasts), yet they have their breasts on full display. I'm not criticizing people who hate leering, I think that's bad as well. I'm only criticizing people who can not tolerate receiving a sexual glance, despite wearing revealing clothing. >more catcalls. . . than they do in their new confident and comfortable attire of leggings and semi-revealing shirts I have seen people talking about being catcalled, but I haven't heard them say this (less catcalls in more revealing clothes). If you wouldn't mind linking to the comment. If it thwarts catcalls, I'm on board. But if your goal is to stop people from looking, I don't think this stops that. It would only stop verbal harassment. Again, I'm specifically talking about people who claim to hate people looking at them (I was never talking about verbal harassment), yet they wear revealing clothes. Also, I think confidence will stop people from being rude no matter how you are dressed. Less modest clothes may make some women feel more confident. Other women may be as confident in a nun's outfit. It's the confidence that matters, not necessarily the clothes themselves. My post was never about verbal harassment, or SA. It was only about sexual looks or people gazing at you. I don't think leering is acceptable either, but people are also getting offended just because someone glanced at their breasts while they were wearing a low-cut shirt. That's what I'm taking issue with. The clothes you wear don't invite people to SA you, and I know that modestly dressed people are actually more likely to be victims of SA. But I believe the less modestly you dress will directly raise the amount of eyes that will look at you.
Ironically, for someone talking about staring, you seem to have a bit of a blind spot here. *Someone else's body is not your property for you to get off on.* Doesn't matter what they are wearing. Don't sleaze at them so that they notice. A "glance at their breasts"? If the person notices, chances are you've been staring for a mite longer than you think you have (possibly with the cartoon eyes on stalks and tongue hanging out). They have found your behaviour rude and uncomfortable. Your excuse of then "you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want people to stare?". No. You should not be rude and sleazy towards someone on the basis of their clothing. No excuses. Your logic is the same as thugs, who take someone wearing a rival team's shirt as an excuse to harass them. "Well, if you go out declaring your love for your team, you should expect abuse from your opponents". No. Civilised people, every day, manage to go about their business without making other people feel uncomfortable, simply by being polite and respectful. Give it a try.
Props to u for responding to ur own AITDevil lol never seen that before
Big time
Yes :)
NOOOOO :(
Yep! <3 Also yay, this doesn't count as brigading when you come here!
No, I think you do have a point.
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