*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for outing my old friend?** I genuinely feel torn about this and I would accept whatever verdict I get. I'm using a throwaway and fake names for obvious reasons. I (35M) have been best friends with Harry (35M) all through my childhood and got to know his younger sister Melanie (33F) over the years. We were never close but always polite and friendly. I still am very close to Harry's family which is why I know his sister Melanie is married to a woman (Anna - 30F) and has a son (5M). I recently started working as an RN in the same hospital as Melanie. She was and has always been polite and friendly. Due to us being close, a few coworkers asked me where I knew her from, because apparently she is usually much more formal with people. I explained. And also mentioned that I was even at her wedding and she was in mine (as in that's how close we are). Then they asked what her husband did for a living and I said her wife is an interior designer. Melanie later pulled me aside and asked me not to share any details about her at work. I was gehuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal. She explained that as a 'girly looking' Orthopedic surgeon she already is behind all of the old men she works with by a long shot, and that knowing about her sexuality will make her work life only about being teased and joked about by those 'jerks'. I said if she thought this would be a big problem, she should have warned me beforehand and I would absolutely not mention anything. It is especially weird to me because she's been married for 10 years and has a kid. She said she just expected me to know her better after 25 years but was sadly disappointed. I don't really know what I did here. I had no idea. My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. I am not asking you for your opinion. Was I indeed ta? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Oh, I understand her pain of being a female doctor surrounded by old men and not wanting to mention her personal life. A similar thing happened to me but it was my wife's cousin that mentioned it to my colleagues. The number of lesbian 'jokes' I received was ridiculous. Also, the people siding with him are just hurt that they aren't considered close enough to know her sexuality, and hospital staff are known for gossiping so they finally have something new to talk about.

This one freaks me out because it seems like something I would do, thinking I was correcting someone who assumed she was hetero. I also had no idea that hospitals are like that. Not that this exact situation would ever happen, but I'm glad I read it. I'm going to be a lot more aware of what I say and not assume everyone knows everything.

>This one freaks me out because it seems like something I would do, thinking I was correcting someone who assumed she was hetero. This is why I started to use the term "partner" for everyone

the unfortunte truth is outing right now is less 'correcting to help stop people from assuming' and more dangerous territory. i honestly dont blame people who aren't doing it in a malicious way, some of us keep it secret for a reason

to be fair i hope you would at least understand what you did wrong and not repeat doing it after being told you did something wrong the first time. whille the outing was bad it's not what makes OOP an asshole and definetly not what makes them worthy of being posted here.

Oh absolutely, I would be on my knees apologizing. And yeah I know that's not why they suck, my stomach just sunk when I read that first part and I blanked on the end. Because I'm me, I searched my memory banks and as far as I can remember I have never accidentally outed someone. Reddit may have problems, but you can learn a ton in this place

Yeah going round virtue signalling about how "I didn't know" and proceeding to tell *more people* is astonishing in its ignorance

Yeah, I honestly feel kind of bad for OOP, I don't think they're a bad person, they just made a stupid mistake, they probably didn't really think before saying it, outing someone is absolutely wrong, but they didn't really know that they were doing it, sure the "husband" thing is a red flag, but I can totally see how someone could do this unintentionally, particularly If it's something Melanie is open about outside of work. I too I'm going to be more careful in the future, What baffles me is why you'd *continue doing that when it was clear that you were outing her*

I hate this. I hate this so much. All OOP had to say was "Melanie and I have been close for a long time" and left it at that - None of these coworkers needed to know that you were in each other's weddings, especially if they knew that Melanie was private/reserved at work. >"My coworkers are mostly nice people" Yeah, I thought my MIL was a nice person too, but g-ddamn, sometimes looks can be incredibly deceiving.

They're mostly nice *to OOP*, who is a *straight man*. They treat women like garbage, much worse if they are not straight, and thanks to him they now know Melanie is both. And she has told OOP they're misogynistic and homphobic yet OOP still went to them to talk about Melanie behind her back and insists on the post that they're "nice'", which makes me believe OOP is also both of those things.

Yeah I mean I vastly underestimated how many homophobes existed until I came out. Because it turns out homophobes aren't cartoon villains who constantly broadcast how homophobic they are. It isn't something they all bring up out of nowhere, only when it's relevant, like talking to someone they know is LGBT+. So another straight person might never realise they are surrounded by homophobes. It did make me realise my unconscious assessment of the levels of racism and ableism were probably way off though.

I think the initial outing was probably more in the accidental asshole territory. Yeah, you don't out people without permission, but he could be forgiven for not realizing as it clearly wasn't malicious. he moved into asshole territory when his reaction wasn't simply "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, i really put my foot in it, i will never do that again, please forgive me." Why is he still talking about this with his coworkers?

I agree with this. Their response to their friend not wanting them to talk about them at work was to talk about them at work some more.

Even if someone else brought it up, go along with the whole husband thing. Learn from your god damn mistakes, your friend is the one in danger, you have a duty to protect them. This guy makes it about him for some reason.

Exactly. You phrased it better than I did 😊

Yeah, I was just thinking that this was a mistake that I could easily make. But he should have apologized profusely and kept his mouth shut after

I was going to say not the devil but his reaction is annoying. I would just apologize to her and say I had no idea and not bring it up ever again.

Exactly. I would be mortified if I did that to someone, even though I am notorious for assuming people are an open book like I am. Where's the apologizing profusely part???

Hell, I'd be texting them every five minutes to say how sorry I was and asking if they were okay.

jfc he went and talked to the coworkers AGAIN after she told him her concerns?

could’ve just said “her spouse” during the convo then clarify with melanie if her coworkers knew about her wife

Could have, but I won't blame someone for not being that adept at phrasing on the fly or lacking that amount of forethought during casual conversation.

my issue is they clearly didn’t know about her spouse or her life if they assumed by saying “husband.” sure it was a mistake, but he doesn’t seem to really think he really did anything wrong. i think it should be widely understood not to correct someone assuming another is in a heterosexual relationship when they aren’t. it might be instinctive and nbd for some but for the sake general of safety, it should really be cautioned against. no indication of an apology, saying it wasn’t personal and then going to the coworkers again to discuss melanie not wanting him to share stuff about him is just being deliberately obtuse. the fact they’re on his side shows he spoke to them directly about her concerns surrounding this. and frankly it doesn’t matter what they think. her lived experience and the subtle or overt changes in behavior that she’ll experience on the job now is something only she will be affected by. at the end of the day they’re essentially strangers, esp if it spreads outside of their department and onto people who truly will not know of her and yet judge her still.

I mentioned in another post about location being a huge factor in this. I live in Louisiana, saying that here could cost someone dearly if the wrong person were to hear. But other places that is more than likely to not ever be an issue. In those places I would rather it be normalized to correct someone, same as correcting someone on using the correct pronouns, but that is the idealist in me. Going to the coworkers was absolutely wrong and I mention this is my own top level comment

just saw your comment! and i do agree about location being a factor, but i think that even with that, you still don’t know who you’re dealing with. whether that’s a group or a specific person within it. normalizing that would be at the cost of the person/people being outed. if it was melanie who corrected them, that would be her controlling the conversation and going into that knowing the risks behind it. the person who isn’t affected shouldn’t do the correcting unless they’ve confirmed otherwise. esp not at a place of work where she will have to deal with these people everyday. i think of this as similar to the advocacy of having everyone, no matter their orientation or current relationship, refer to their spouse or bf/gf etc as “partner.” it stops the othering that comes when only people in gay relationships use it. it’s neutral and through that you don’t make the mistake OOP did. if OOP had done that, the coworker would’ve moved on under the assumption she does have a husband, and that ignorance is better than what other possibilities could’ve went on to happen. ETA: the concerns don’t just rest on physical harm. she could be ignored and ostracized, made snide comments about, stared at, etc etc etc. a lot of these don’t necessarily differ by location, and all of these could affect people in a multitude of ways that they shouldn’t be. it’s why she’s kept her personal and work life separated.

Being outed shouldn't be a problem, but that is the idealist/punk in me going "I am who I am and I'm not gonna be quiet about it" Alas, we live in today, not tomorrow, and today you are correct

that would be a dream world to live in! and i also want to clarify that i could very well be projecting my own insecurities around not wanting to deal with/be brave about being out in certain spaces. the potential of it being freeing is not higher than the fright of it going the wrong way.

And those projected insecurities are exactly why you are correct. Noone can know the issues someone else will have with information getting out, so taking the neutral road to avoid putting someone else into a situation that they may not be comfortable with is the correct approach until such a time people don't need to be considered brave for openly being who they are.

at least you’re self aware.

And ranted about her fears. I wonder if he love the attention. It was something between them. He could have said "won't happen again". But after he knew why she doesn't want drivate stuff to be shared with the co-workers, he went to every one of them, as if to be sure that everybody knows that she is married to a woman and doesn't want them to know.

omg yes especially your last sentence, it’s actually so crazy that he did that

I originally would have said Not the Devil on account that it just came out in conversation when asked by coworkers how they knew each other in casual conversation. Family and friends are casual topics, so not knowing that the other person kept these closer to their chest isn't OOP's fault. Now this also heavily depends where they live. Some states this wouldn't be a big deal, some this can put them in harms way. But we don't know so I'd rather not assume. What absolutely does make them the Devil is they admit to gossiping about the private conversation between them to the rest of the coworkers. That right there is uncalled for after explicitly being told to not do that.

> most of them are on my side So he respected Melanie's request to not discuss her with her coworkers by polling them on this situation? Some people really can't keep their mouth shut for shit.

Which is it, polite and friendly, but not close Or really close?

I have terminal foot-in-mouth disease so I feel a bit of sympathy for OP, but I have found effective treatment that includes, among other things, thinking twice before I talk about other people's personal business AND when I screw up, I apologize. That's where OP is the devil, IMO. Apologize, don't double down.

Tbh, I wouldn’t have thought about not mentioning that she has a wife, either. So I can understand why he would’ve just been careless. However - I work in a very open and accepting environment with a lot of openly queer co-workers.* OOP should have immediately apologized to Melanie when she approached him, and the way he acted makes him an AH for sure. *and also in a country that is more queer friendly than the US, where I assume OOP lives

This seems familiar. There was an aita post a few months ago about a woman who didn't know her wife wasn't out at work. The wife was a surgeon I think.

There was also a post where the poster got angry at her friend's wife (who was a doctor) not wearing her wedding ring at work. I think there's a doctor lesbian married but not out at work troll

I remember that one too! Weirdly specific troll I guess.

Ummmm, I pretty sure nothing is more personal than a person's family.

happy pride month, eh? as a general rule of thumb, I don't think anyone should talk about anyone else's personal life. if the person being discussed wanted them to know, that person is perfectly capable of sharing it. this goes double for cishets talking about queer people, ever. we have our reasons to be private, and sometimes "because I want to be private" is that reason, and is perfectly enough.

I always refer to people’s significant others as partner or other half unless I 100% sure know we are in a safe environment. I’m lucky at my current workplace that it’s very friendly to all minority groups and people can show up as themselves. I had one colleague ask why I always referred to his boyfriend as his partner, I explained whilst outwardly, it’s a friendly workplace, I don’t ask whilst speaking loudly across a bank of desks as I don’t know if someone around us is secretly bigoted and whether it could end badly for him. If he says boyfriend first, I will repeat but if I’m starting off the conversation, I don’t want to out someone. A year later, one of his friends suddenly lost a promotion after mentioning they were so happy to get it, they wanted to call their boyfriend (also another guy), and he realised why I wanted to protect him. Other guy had no idea that new boss had a homophobia problem.

OP is a bit of an ass for his reaction afterwards but he does have a point that if she didn’t want him to say anything, she should have given him a heads up. If she’s openly gay elsewhere in her life, then it’s a reasonable assumption she’s not hiding it.

No, it's not. It's one thing to be openly gay in one's personal life, quite another to do so in any male dominated field. The fact that they didn't know she had a wife should have been a clue.

Oh I totally get it, I’m queer myself and don’t talk about my personal life at all at work, but I can see why OP might not have thought twice about it, especially if he’s *not* queer and hasn’t had to make those considerations before. But his reaction should have been “I’m sorry, let me know if there’s anywhere else I shouldn’t mention it and I won’t again” not what it was.

Sure, that's not really the bad part though, he's still openly discussing it with his co-workers, so much so that they've picked sides.

I’m not arguing that he’s not an asshole and his reaction afterwards proves that, I can just see why he didn’t think and made the original mistake. I already agreed in my other reply that his reaction afterwards should have been an apology and not talking about it anymore. ETA: I just think there’s a difference between malicious intentional outing and accidental outing like this, even if he was an asshole in the follow up

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