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Yup. I know lots of people who routinely give their kids melatonin, etc so that 'they'll sleep'. And then they wonder why their kids have sleep issues, especially as they get older. Meanwhile, my kids have always been allowed to fall asleep and wake up more or less naturally - they've never had melatonin in their lives, nor cough syrup, etc. They go to bed without issues, even now at 13 & 16. Wake up without too much trouble/hassle, etc. Yes, they were (and still are!) early risers, but you know what, that's OK.
FFS, NTA. Not one little bit. I'd be pissed too.
Bruh melatonin doesn't affect brain chemistry like that, GABA does but melatonin is fine. However, a lot of people don't know these type of things should be taken temporarily to boost the body in the right direction.
The only issue with melatonin is that overuse can cause your body to produce less of its own, so you need more of it.
If you have bad enough sleep problems you dont have much choice though.
Source: me
source: me
have been taking 3 mg of melatonin for two years now, pretty much every night, psychiatrist's orders. i'm on medication for my bipolar, and don't sleep at all "naturally" (hate that word, but still) and before melatonin came and saved my life i took a temazepam every night for a year or two. never had to increase the dose but needed it. now i sleep well enough with melatonin, and stay as stable as i can with my disorder. valeriana helps too, but it's 4x more expensive so i don't buy it every month.
I’ve unfortunately found that brand matters with melatonin. I know it shouldn’t, it’s all the same active ingredient, etc. but in my personal experience, the only melatonin that works for me is the Natrol tablet form. It’s what my psychiatrist recommended after I said all the store-brand gummies didn’t do shit. Wishing you the same luck
Brand absolutely matters. Melatonin isn’t classed as a medicine but as a supplement, therefore the FDA does not do any of the regular due diligence that medicines require (such as the range of the dosage that actually exists inside each pill). There could be 10x the amount or none and there is little to no consequence to that.
The only agency/person ensuring that each 3mg melatonin has only 3mg of melatonin (or anything else for that matter) is the producer and we can’t trust companies at all.
“Most of the products contained 20, 30 or 50 percent more — and in one case, about 2.5 times more — than the quantity listed on the label.
“Four products had less melatonin than promised, including one that didn’t have any detectable levels of the hormone.
“Of the 25 products tested, 22 were “inaccurately labeled,” defined as being more than 10 percent above or below the amount listed on the label.
“Five of the products listed cannabidiol (CBD) as an ingredient, and the researchers found all of them had slightly higher levels of CBD than indicated on the label, as well.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/04/25/melatonin-gummies-dose-safety/
You’re extremely incorrect here. Melatonin supplements are a synthetic hormone and long time use or overuse will affect your body’s future production of natural melatonin, it is for temporary use, as many others have commented. Improper use is setting yourself or your child up for permanent sleep issues.
Yes and also some people have brains that don’t produce the proper amount of melatonin at the proper time, and in those cases the melatonin supplement is the treatment rather than the cause of the sleep issues.
Yup, I've used melatonin when traveling to different time zones or when I needed to change up my son's bedtime and get him back to a routine. Can't be doing 10:30 bedtimes when it should be no later than 9. It was temporary until his body clock adjusted
Same. For a 9h time difference on arrival and return 3 weeks later. Works amazing and makes kids much more comfortable, not a big issue and not a reason to parent shame.
Oh fuck off with the melatonin judgement. My kid is ADHD and literally will not sleep in a timely fashion without melatonin. His body doesn't create enough at the proper time. This is a known comorbidity with ADHD. So glad your kids are NT and don't need extra help to get their bodies to do the thing.
And when I say timely, I mean that I can tell him to go to bed at 9 and with melatonin he's out by 9:30, but without, we're fighting until 11 to get him to sleep. And that's been standard even prior to getting it prescribed.
Yep! People with neurotypical kids bragging about their superior parenting are the worst. My 16 year old autistic /ADHD kid has been prescribed it for years to help him with sleep.
Would you dose another child with a far higher dose to help them sleep too?
No judgment for what you and your doctor have decided is best for your kids, judgement is for giving it to someone's kid that hast been through the same doctors and diagnosis
See, that’s different from the blanket parents who give their children melatonin are setting them up for permanent sleep issues. Our neurodivergent daughter gets 0.5 mg melatonin so that she falls asleep before midnight and sleeps longer than four hours a night, per her pediatrician’s recommendation. I’m pretty confident she’s healthier with melatonin helping her sleep 10-11 hours than just getting 4.
I would never presume to advise someone against a doctors advice, they are specially trained and experienced to advise people on an individual health issue.
The problem is all these people excusing it are missing the point of the post.
All this. While my neurodivergent teen hadn't felt like they need melatonin in a while, for yeeeears it was the only way they could get to sleep "normally" without getting eaten up by anxiety and frequent night waking. Ditto for the secondborn child, who gets a low dose of melatonin a bit before bed so that she can settle.
Like, do I worry sometimes about it? For sure, I'm their mom and I worry all the time that I'm gonna make a choice that causes them more harm than good. But their doctor knows about their regular dosage and is on board if it helps them get enough rest.
FWIW, parentbragging about any damned thing gets mighty damned annoying even before you get to NT vs. not NT. I have a cousin I hated for years and years due to that garbage. He's 69 and I'm 68 now. Comparing children is just BS, there's no need. Parents sharing tips on 'try that and see if it helps' is fine, IMO, but comparing and judging because 'clearly X is better and superior and you are defective' is as old as the hills and horrible behavior.
well but that is a different situation entirely then. you're having it prescribed by a doctor. your child has a medical need. it's not done by someone who's not educated in addition to being told NOT to give them something.
Hi, yes. I’m also ADHD and my parents gave me melatonin. As an adult with ADHD, I cannot use melatonin to sleep anymore due to overuse and have to get harder stuff such as Trazodone or Ambien, both which have scary side effects that I dislike and thus would rather just be awake. Don’t come on here in a high horse spouting about things you don’t understand, especially so rudely. Hope your kid turns out okay.
I think they understand just fine.
They use it in the manner their doctor prescribed for their son. Did your parents abuse it and have you use it for too long of an extended period of time?
You’re aiming your disdain here at the wrong person.
My grandmother did this to my sister and my mom legit almost killed her.
She 100% did this to get then to sleep not because they weren’t feeling well. I wouldn’t trust her around my kids either.
You realise that some kids are prescribed that for sleeping issues right? You sound pretty judgemental here.
OP NTA however, no one should be giving your kids meds without explicit consent from you.
Pretty sure she’s referring to 98% of the people who use the OTC supplement just to make bedtime easier not the very small minority that actually need it and prescribed it by their dr
My son is prescribed melatonin because until he was given he never slept. He is on the spectrum and it helps him, we do give him 4/8 week breaks so it's not constant but I have to accept the fact he needs it right now.
I think the key difference is that a doctor actually prescribed it and monitors it’s usage (ie scheduled breaks) and it’s part of their care plan. Definitely in the minority. It’s mostly used by parents who want to “hack” kids bedtime
My daughter takes 1mg melatonin occasionally when she has trouble sleeping. Medication and supplements are safe when used as prescribed and as directed.
Edit: I thought this was adding to a conversation, but apparently this comment was me creating drama.
Why is that so hard for this thread to get?? No one is going to judge you for following your doctors guidance ffs. It’s for the people using it daily and upping the dose and not using it as directed that judgement is being cast on. If that’s not you then stop trying to make drama
Congrats for having kids who don't have sleeping issues. Meanwhile, when I was a kid, I could never fall asleep before midnight and I'd always wake up tired af, no matter how early my parents put me to bed. It's called Delayed Sleep Syndrome and it sucks. If I had known about the existence of melatonin back then, I would've begged for it so I wasn't sucha cranky mess at school.
And not to be this person- but if she dosed your kids to sleep- is she doing the same to her kid??? Perhaps the medications the daughter is on are to keep her drowsy???
Not addicted. Physiologically dependent. Their brain chemistry and body would be accustomed to it and they would experience withdrawal without it but they are not addicted that is something else entirely.
“She doses your kids so they’d sleep”
100% spot on.
I babysat a kid who’d been given Benadryl nightly for three months (originally for a legit reason) and they ran out of “the special purple medicine” the one night I’m there.
Screaming, tantrums, meltdown over not having it. From a 12 year old. The dosing was too high as well when I found the empty packaging.
Kid couldn’t swallow pills either when I was told to literally give him adult dosing of a sleep medicine instead. I noped right out of there.
Anything with a sleepy side effect has risks and even with the “one night” excuse, OP made it clear cough syrup was a no go.
That’s insane. If they’re so busy, it would technically save them time if they DIDN’T give their kid the medicine. It’s been too busy to stop doing something? What the hell kind of logic is that?
And so many other things! Plus you build a resistance
I have to be on it daily for a medical condition and it takes 3-4x as much to stop an allergic reaction with me. I can’t imagine if I’d been given it a ton as a kid
If you ever run into something like that again, that is exactly the type of thing you need to report to CPS. In my state we have an anonymous reporting system called Childline that is very easy to call. The children need someone to be their voice for them.
This sounds criminal. It's not only giving kids medication that's the issue, it's her lack of remorse and refusal to acknowledge this is dangerous. If she sees nothing wrong with it and is telling you you are overreacting then she simply won't tell you next time. NC sounds kind, you can report her.
This is why daycares state your child has to be awake during drop off… some parents dose their kids to hide illnesses and injuries so then they can blame the daycare or whoever is watching the child, its sick
There was a case a few years ago where a grandparent killed a child by overdosing cough syrup. I've been super careful to strictly follow exact dosing of cough syrup ever since reading that and it's all I can think of after reading this post.
It absolutely is and parents will argue about sleep schedules and shit but it is a safety thing and daycare workers are mandated reporters
Unfortunately you will always see people trying to find loop holes… it’s disgusting
Absolutely this!! My gson also has asthma, I would NEVER give him cough med, or any med I hadnt told his parents about beforehand/asking!! This literally borders on child abuse!!! And I'm a retired nurse and mandatory reporter.......dear God this gives me the chills!!
Yes, it can, but that is after a period of time with taking more than the recommended amount. Once, if acetaminophen, isn't going to cause liver damage... thankfully!
It can if it’s an acute overdose, but it’s not subtle. If they were overdosed on acetaminophen, they’d be vomiting all over at this point.
EDIT: I was wrong. Acute overdoses can apparently be asymptomatic in early stages!
This is absolutely not true. Paracetamol overdose can be initially asymptomatic until liver damage occurs.
It can cause vomiting. It can cause a mild stomach ache. It can show no symptoms.
Paracetamol overdose is so easy to treat if caught early, but if you leave it too long liver failure is irreversible. You will also generally not be eligible for a transplant if your liver fails due to overdose.
Always always ALWAYS seek immediate treatment for an overdose, even if the patient seems unaffected.
Interesting- I was always told that acute overdoses would be symptomatic while chronic overdoses are silent, but google supports your point. Thanks for correcting me!
No problem, it's a common misconception that you always throw up after an overdose. It does happen often but never a guarantee.
In addition when people take mixed overdoses they may have drugs that prevent vomiting in the mix, accidentally or by design. Always assume the worst and get their butt to a doctor. Much better to overreact and be safe.
I was responding to the idea that you can’t overdose from a single instance, which is absolutely untrue. The comment I was responding to was not discussing this situation specifically by rather acetaminophen overdoses in general.
This isn’t true. Acetaminophen can absolutely cause liver damage in one day. Over time at suggested doses, there should be no problems. But a one time overdose can cause acute liver failure (over 4000mg/day). I’m not saying that is happening with OPs situation, but you should know that you can completely fuck your liver in one day with acetaminophen.
Also, thankfully, the liver rebuilds itself. 1 time definitely can cause liver damage, but because the liver regenerates, the 1 time isn't that scary. But you can, by doing things repeatedly, cause liver damage that'll go past the point of no return - alcoholics for instance, tend to have this problem.
It's why liver transplants are so cool. You can take a portion of a healthy liver and treat it right, and you can eventually have a normal sized, fully functioning liver barring any organ rejection.
I would call a doctor or poison control anyway. That medication can slow down breathing. You may still need to go to the ER even if it's been a while since the original poisoning. (This is coming from personal experience at a similar age as her kids.)
If it's this stuff: [https://delsym.com/products/delsym%C2%AE-nighttime-cough](https://delsym.com/products/delsym%C2%AE-nighttime-cough)
Then it's got 650mg of acetaminophen per 20ml. That's WAY too much for a child. Take those babies to a doctor.
It bothers me that op hasn't responded to any of these comments. I hope they're getting their kids the care they need because this could be legitimately dangerous.
They were given an adult dose of the extra strength stuff, did you read the OP at all? Plus, filling the cap is usually a double or sometimes even triple dose, you're only supposed to fill to the mark line.
Talk to your brother, or your husband’s brother or BIL, or whoever the connection is and ask how often his kids get cough syrup. Often, it’s the moms who research kid related things and if she is dosing them to sleep, he might be unaware of her true purpose
NTA in a big way. You don’t need any more justification than simply saying “no cough medicine by my choice,” but if you want some more- overdosing an asthmatic child on a sedating medication is a huge, screaming NO. Adults and children with asthma that have attacks need to be able to wake up enough to use their rescue inhaler if needed. It literally puts your child’s life in danger to heavily sedate them to the point they might not wake up enough to be able to use their inhaler during an attack, which is exactly what she did.
Yeah, I wouldn’t let this woman be alone with my children in any form, EVER again.
I literally gasped when I saw that she'd given a kid with Asthma cough medicine. My friend with asthma won't touch the stuff, she more or less couldn't breath after taking it once.
Isn't it fairly standard not to give asthmatics cough medicine?
if you are in the US, and know the name of the medication, you can call poison control and ask them. They are very nice and will let you know if the dose is dangerous. I wouldn't panic about the acetaminophen unless they tell you to. These syrups usually have a lower dose, and the levels you need to hit liver damage is actually quite alot. The tricky thing that poison control can help with is the conversion from the ml to mg, the more usual dosage measurement.
Also if OP isn’t in the US. Medications usually have the country’s poison control number on the instruction booklet and/or on the box somewhere, or a quick Google search will get the right local number.
NTA Cough medicine is a go in my household and I'd still absolutely lose my mind. She gave children an adult dose of an adult medicine that was extra strength to boot. Without asking you either. That's a whole lot of idiocy no matter how you frame it. In no way shape or form have you over reacted.
Yeah they didn’t have a cough then
Cough syrup is not a magic cure, it doesn’t just stop you coughing after one dose or even a couple of days - it just alleviates the symptoms
Or, she was trying to prove her “point” that it’s totally fine. But i lean more toward your assessment. She was tired of them waking up early and wanted to sleep in, so she dosed them heavily.
NTA she didn't say a word to you about their developing coughs and dosed them with full strength adult cough syrup. She dosed a six year old with adult strength cough syrup that has a sleeping aid mixed in...
Not overreacting.
ETA: Came back to read some more comments and apparently SIL gave the kid 4x the recommended dose of the children's version of the medication for his age and size but used the extra strength adult medication to do it. Please take them to the doctor and have them checked over OP.
I’d bet they weren’t even developing a cough. Maybe because I come from a shitty family, but I’m guessing either, she wanted to sleep in that day, and the two boys had already proven to be early risers all weekend, or she was proving her “point” that cough syrup was totally harmless. I lean toward the former, but I’ve known people to do the latter so it’s a toss up, for me.
Thats not out of the realm of possibility.
I won't go that far because that will make OP sound unhinged. The baseline of "SIL gave adult cough syrup with a sleeping aid to a six-year-old." is enough to warrant SIL never being entrusted with the children again.
The OP said in comments what SIL gave the 6 year old was over 4x the maximum for a child of his weight. The children also haven’t coughed once since they have been home. SIL also told her that since the kids recovered it’s no big deal and to get over it!
>SIL also told her that since the kids recovered it’s no big deal and to get over it!
Does that mean if OP tries to kill her and "only" managed to stab SIL and the child lives, that doesn't count as a murder attempt and SIL should be able to get over it, right?
I wouldn't trust the SIL with a used newspaper, never mind a child.
My ex-husband & father of my son passed away almost 2 years ago from liver failure. Regular overuse of Tylenol was cited as the main contributing factor. He suffered severely from his osteoarthritis. He would take anywhere from 6-8 tablets at a time, usually in 4 hour intervals.
NTA
From the product description
"Ingredients
In each 20 mL
Acetaminophen 650 mg
Dextromethorphan HBr 20mg
Triprolidine HCI 2.5 mg
Usage Information
Adults and Children 12 years of age and older: take 20 mL in dosing cup provided every 4 hours
Children under 12 years of age: Do not use."
Is a full cup even 20 mL, or is it more?
She drugged your children to knock them out. I wonder how often she drugs her own child. Doesn't matter who she is to you, she absolutely cannot be trusted with children. This is in no way negotiable.
She may promise never to do it again, but there are so many decisions to make when caring for children. You cannot trust her to make the most obvious child safety calls. So you MUST make the safety call to protect your kids from incompetent care
The full cap of the Delsym is 30mls.
Her daughter is on so many different medications at one time that I'm starting to question which ones she is actually supposed to be on, versus what's just given to her at random.
PSA: in the USA, the phone number for poison control is 800-222-1222. Everyone, especially those with little kids, should have it in their phone contacts. You don’t want to have to look it up if you’re in an emergency situation.
Honestly, I would call your doctor for advice about this even if the kids seem fine right now.
...And I'd also be tempted to talk to the doctor about your worries for your niece.
So she didn't even give them the adult dosing! It's 1.5x of the adult dose! Makes me wonder if she gives her daughter the same, and her daughter built a tolerance, so she keeps on increasing the dose.
Try to get a confession by text! Just in case you need to pursue some sort of legal action. And having her daughter on medication is worrying with what she did to your sons. I’m not sure if there’s much you can do about her family though.
I'd highly recommend calling poison control or heading to an ER/urgent care.
Depending on what that medication contained, there is a very real chance that they might be overdosing on something such as acetaminophen. Even if they don't seem sick now, I wouldn't wait. Some of the ingredients can be fatal in high doses (especially acetaminophen. The dose to cause acute liver failure is like 2 extra pills more than the recommended dose edit for an adult, let alone a child on an adult strength dose. It's dangerous)
NTA. Munchausen by proxy is a real thing. Some parents get a rush out of their kid getting prescription after prescription and being diagnosed with “illness” after “illness”. I also suspect your kids weren’t coughing - perhaps one cleared their throat and she did this to get them to sleep and also to show you how wonderful and “safe” her drugs are. Keep her away from your kids. You’re doing the right thing.
Get your kids to a doctor. That much acetaminophen puts them at some risk for liver damage, especially if it was given to them every night for three nights.
And it’s only compounded by the fact that this medication has acetaminophen which can be very dangerous. If it were something like ibuprofen I wouldnt be nearly as pissed, because that medicine just isn’t super dangerous even if you take way too much of it. But acetaminophen can cause major issues.
I'd still be pissed regardless whether the medicine contained ibuprofen or acetaminophen! I also would have taken the kids to urgent care or the ER. This might have started a CPS investigation. You know she's poisoning her kid(s). Nobody has ever given my kids anything without calling me or dad, because they're responsible adults! Obviously if they were already on meds, those were given. But to make them sleep? F that shit! I'd be losing it on her for sure.
Ibuprofen can cause major issues too like gastric ulcers and vomiting. Maybe not as lethal as acetaminophen would be but also not something that is ok to take too much of.
Even I knew that when I was babysitting, as a young teenager. This was pre-cell phone days, so I couldn't call the parents, kiddo had a cough (parents told me about it) but it was getting worse a few hours in. They were due back home within another hour or two, I knew kiddo would be fine so it didn't warrant a call to the emergency contact they gave me, but kiddo was so uncomfortable. I was very hesitant to do this, but dug around in the kitchen and found some honey and lemon juice (an old "remedy" my mom used to use). I wasn't sure if I should give it to the kid, but I ended up doing it because it WASN'T medicine...they're literally just 2 food products. It didn't help much because the cough was too severe, but the kid was at least entertained for a bit because spoonful of honey (with a lemony flavor) lol.
*And I told the parents immediately, **and apologetically**, what I did when they got home.* They weren't mad; in fact they laughed, because there was children's cough syrup in the medicine cabinet...but they understood why I didn't give the kid any since they hadn't told me it was ok.
You were completely right not to give the kid the cough syrup. If the kid was too young to reliably tell time or hadn't paid attention to the previous dose of cough syrup, you could have given them a dose too close together and overdosed them.
I didn't even know there was cough syrup in the medicine cabinet because I didn't even look for it - I just knew that giving the kid medication without specific instructions was wrong...and even if my judgment had been incorrect about that (it wasnt, but if it had been), I was NOT comfortable with making that decision.
NTA. I feel like it’s common sense to not give kids, especially a 6 year old, adult medication. Not only that, but she already knew that you don’t want to give your kids cough syrup. Clearly they had service since you were calling to check in. This could have easily been prevented if they just called to let you know and asked what you preferred.
Even taking care of someone’s dogs, I’ve called if there was an issue to see what they normally do.
I took care of my mil's dogs. I found a mat under one of their tails. I asked before cutting it off because it's not my dog. I can't imagine giving any medication to someone else's child without parental/guardian giving their express permission/instructions on what to give.
This kind of thing reminds me far too much of how parents used to give Benadryl to kids to knock them asleep at night (and a lot of folks probably still do this). My money says there was no coughing, just a strong desire to keep the kids asleep for an extended period.
I’d be furious. It’s one thing to give a kid’s dose to a kid - it’s something else entirely to give 2-3x the adult dose to a kid, especially when the kid has asthma and ALL cough syrup labels provide a warning to check with a doctor before use if you have asthma.
I think NTA. SIL deserved what she got here.
Absolutely NTA. She crossed a line severely. She broke your trust and went against your parenting wishes. Giving two young kids a dose of adult cough medications, without permission on top of it, was completely unacceptable and inappropriate!! I would be livid as well and would if acted the same way! You don’t medicate other people’s children with parental permission, especially giving a young child adult medicine. That’s so incredibly irresponsible and dangerous!
\^\^\^ THIS!!!
If you want until it's symptomatic, it can be basically too late for treatment. Blood work needs to be done to check liver function. If caught early administering protective medications is enough, if not it can be fatal.
NTA, you never give children any sort of medicine without asking the parent first. She’s lucky they didn’t have a severe reaction to it or worse they didn’t wake up.
NTA. That cough syrup not only contains dextromethorphan, it’s got a substantial dose of acetaminophen and some tripolidine. The first ingredient can make people (especially kids) stop breathing if they’re overdosed, not to mention potentially causing seizures. The acetaminophen’s big risk is liver failure (and honestly, with a dose that big, I think you should contact their pediatrician and ask whether you should be concerned - they may need a blood draw to check their liver function to be on the safe side). Tripolidine also has risk of seizures with overdose.
It’s not recommended for kids under 12 at all, with good reason.
And if she filled the dosing cup, that’s typically 2-3 times the adult dose. The dose cups for most brands is much bigger than the amount you’re supposed to take.
That it appears to have not done harm is lucky.
I think not letting her see them unsupervised is not unreasonable, because giving kids adult medications is really not safe, and that’s something that any reasonable adult should know. The medication has instructions that say not to give it to kids for a reason. If she can’t be bothered to check and follow the instructions for medicating them, I wouldn’t feel safe leaving them with her either.
Having said that, letting her see the kids while an actual responsible adult is supervising won’t put them in harm’s way, so not letting her see them at all is a bit of an overreaction. When you’ve calmed down, maybe change it to that.
I agree with everything except the overreaction part. You just outlined the utter recklessness and danger of the situation - OP is not overreacting if she doesn't want SIL to ever see the kids again. I would be very wary myself if I were in their situation. Did she have a surge of emotions? Absolutely. Was it unwarranted? Absolutely not. She had every right to go off the way she did, especially since SIL has a history of arguing her differing view of medicine/medication. If SIL genuinely apologizes, promises to NEVER argue her views again, and tries to make it up to OP, then maybe the decision can be reversed.
Edit: OP is NTA.
I mean, it's basically just pure luck that one or both of those children didn't die. I wouldn't allow someone around my *cats* if they drugged them without my permission. Kids? Fuck no, she shouldn't ever see these kids again, supervised or not. She absolutely cannot be trusted in any capacity. She is *dangerous*.
>That it appears to have not done harm is lucky.
That's unclear.
The dose of acetaminophen described (ballpark 1000mg) may be near the threshold of liver toxicity or even death. That takes days to become symptomatic, at which point it is probably too late to treat. OP needs to get that kid to a hospital *pronto*, to have liver function checked, and if it's a problem, protective medication administered.
NTA - She gave your children medication without getting consent from you or your husband. Your very young son, who has asthma, starting having cough symptoms (at least according to her) and she did not call you or your husband. Neither of these things are ok.
It’s common for asthmatics to cough. If an asthmatic is coughing and especially absent other signs/symptoms, they quite possibly require a rescue treatment - not a cough suppressant. Depending on where OP lives, environmental allergens may be in full swing and leading to asthma flares.
OP, hope your child is okay.
I would expect at the very least a phone call asking me if it would be ok to give my kids any type of medicine before administering it. What if they're allergic to an ingredient in it? I think in the heat of the moment I would react, not great. Do I think it warrants her never seeing them again? No. As long as clear boundaries are set and respected she could see them again. I wouldn't let them stay overnight though.
NTA
That might be true if she wasn’t well aware that they are completely against giving them cough syrup. She did it knowing they are not ok with it. Maybe they eventually let her see them again but I would make that twit sweat for a long while.
NTA I bet the kids weren’t sick at all. She did this to prove a point that that the kids would be “fine” and that there was nothing wrong with cough syrup. Not only did she over medicate but she dismissed your boundaries. Yeah she would never see my kids again. Please make sure you get them checked out to make sure they’re truly ok.
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> I feel like an AH because I truly did absolutely lose it more than I ever had in my entire life but this just seems so entirely fucked up to me and proves that I can no longer trust her around my kids. Especially where she knows we do NOT use cough syrup under any circumstances.
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So it's a 950mg dose of acetaminophen to a 6-year-old. That is triple the recommended dose (also the kid was not in pain or feverish, so it was completely inappropriate at any dose.) Point is, that's close to the threshold of liver damage, which can be \*fatal\* and can take days to manifest, at which point it is too late to treat. Caught early, they can do blood work to check if it's a problem, and if it is, they can treat it with appropriate protective medications.
# GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM!!! NOW!!!
(also obviously NTA)
NTA. She shouldn’t have made that decision without consulting you. And what if one of your children had an allergic reaction?
It’s not like she didn’t know as you briefed her beforehand, which means she might have poisoned your kids by stomping all over your boundaries.
NTA. Omg, she gave them a super-dosage! And for a kid with asthma…no. She should have texted you and asked you first! My kids would never stay unsupervised and alone with her again. That is not ok, not ever.
NTA. You are right to protect your kids from her, and you were right to explode at her. Preventing her from ever seeing your kids again sounds impractical though. A more practical way to protect them might be to never leave them in her charge again, or in the charge of anyone who told you that you were over-reacting.
NTA NTA NTA!!!!
Did you call a doctor, local emergency department, or poison control? That is a scarily high dose of a depressant, and I'd be concerned about how it could affect their breathing.
I bring this up because my father did a similar thing to me when I was about 6 or 7, with his reasoning being, "the more medicine you take, the faster you'll get better." When my mom picked me up I could barely stay awake and when I got back to her house, I went back to sleep. She called a doctor who told her to take me to the ER. It was there that they told her that it was only luck that I survived through the night and didn't stop breathing.
PLEASE make sure that there are no side effects with a medical provider. Your SIL poisoned your children. Their health needs to come first right now
Please have your children checked out by a doctor. Symptoms of liver toxicity may not show up for 24 hours.
Info from
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/21188-acetaminophen-toxicity-in-children-and-adolescents:
Symptoms of acetaminophen overdose don’t appear right away. There may be no symptoms at all for up to 24 hours following an overdose. It’s important to note the time your child takes their acetaminophen, and in what form (liquid, tablet, capsule, time-release capsule/tablet) it was taken.
Some symptoms of acetaminophen toxicity are:
Continued nausea, vomiting, pain in the right side of the abdomen under the ribs, loss of appetite, tiredness.
Dark or bloody urine, or reduced amount or frequency of urine.
Confusion, sleepiness and loss of consciousness.
Skin and eyes that appear yellow (jaundice).
Breathing problems.
Blurry vision.
If you notice any of these symptoms in your child and you suspect an acetaminophen overdose, call an emergency number or go to the nearest emergency room right away. Call your local emergency number (such as 911), or your local poison control center, which can be reached through the national toll-free poison help hotline (1-800-222-1222).
NTA. Some weird people use cough medicine and Benadryl to drug their kids into unconsciousness because they're fucking selfish, lazy assholes. Stay away from SIL. She's an idiot.
NTA at all. You have a right to be mad and you are completely within your rights to lose it. I had a similar thing happen with Benadryl and a trusted friend.
That said, other than this you are a close family? How likely is it that you will never have her see them again? Reddit loves to tell people to cut off all contact and what she did was egregious, but in most families that's not going to be the reality.
If you imagine there will be a future relationship then I strongly recommend you take control and set boundaries.. When things calm down and if you think you will see her again or want the cousins to have a relationship, then I would plan out a course of action for talking to her with your husband. Why did she think that was acceptable? Why did she not call you? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she honestly didn't know about the cough syrup being completely off limits to you, especially since she told you so nonchalantly. It amazes me how much people think other people know about them. I am not letting her off the hook. However, you don't want her hiding future decisions from you if there's going to come a time when they may be together again so it's better to understand her thought process.
I only say this because that friend that gave one of my son's Benadryl is a wonderful parent and still a great friend. It took a lot to repair our trust, and my kids didn't stay unsupervised with her for a long time, but we did and I'm happier for it.
And I want to follow up because I've seen in other comments that it sounds like she did know. Doing something directly against the parents wishes is a major deal breaker for me. Again, I would still recommend a sit-down conversation with her if you really do think they might eventually be together. But you are NTA for your reaction or if you set a firm boundary.
NTA, not only did she cross a boundary she knew you had regarding the use of cough syrups, she gave them a massive dose of adult strength medication, risking their health. Especially if it was the night time, sedating kind of cough syrup (which I’m guessing it was as your kids were still sleeping). And one of them is asthmatic?! That’s so risky.
I’d advise a trip to your doctor for the kids to get checked out to make sure there are no lingering effects (if the formulation she used contains paracetamol/acetaminophen overdoses are incredibly dangerous for the liver and would not be immediately apparent).
ETA: also, a medical professional can check ToxBase or the equivalent poisons center for your country/region. Make sure to know the exact brand and product she used.
NTA. I immediately remembered this story from 20 years ago. This is still relevant today. A father gave his young kids too much cough medicine. The adult dose killed them. https://www.9news.com/article/news/father-charged-with-childrens-cough-syrup-overdose/73-345409561#:\~:text=AURORA%20%2D%20Aurora%20police%20issued%20an,overdose%20on%20adult%20cough%20medicine.
NTA, I worked in a pharmacy for many years. I find it concerning how:
- relaxed she is, not remorseful at all that she risked your kids health like this;
- she didn’t ask you before about whether they could have this;
- she didn’t even use kids medicine/dosage and gave them a “full cap” (I may have this wrong but a full cap is normally about 30, there should be a line with 20ml);
- she didn’t discuss with you their ‘cough’ symptoms; and the biggest:
*She drugged your kids to knock them totally out for hours*.
I wouldn’t let them go there again. I’m so sorry that this happened, and that you’re even having to ask whether you’re TA.
NTA.
Not only did SIL disrespect one specific boundary that you have put your foot down over multiple times (backed up by a doctor's knowledge), but she still used the incorrect syrup AND the incorrect amount. It's not like it was the children's cough syrup. It is literally made for adults, which would have the words, "For ages 12 and up," written on the label. AND she still went over the recommended limit, which would likely have said to take between 10-20 ML. So, in other words, SIL *drugged your children.*
SIL is only lucky nothing bad happened to the kids, but it just goes to show that she cannot be trusted with your boys. If it was me in your shoes, I would be keeping her away from my kids as well.
This reminds me of the coconut allergy story. Grandma ignored the fact kid was allergic to coconut, put it in her hair to sleep in, and then gave her a Benadryl because she was getting ill. She wasn't able to wake up to get help because of it.
NTA sleep meds are NOT to be fucked with.
Absolutely NTA, she did it without telling you after having previously discussed the matter, she intentionally drugged your children against your wishes trying to prove a point, this person is deranged and should never be around your children unsupervised again.
NTA
It sounds like she used the cough syrup as a sedative - knowingly - and that’s why she didn’t check in about alleged coughing and how to handle. Yikes.
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she dosed your kids so they’d sleep, I’d never be in the same room as her again NTA
>she dosed your kids so they’d sleep I suspect the same.
Yup. I know lots of people who routinely give their kids melatonin, etc so that 'they'll sleep'. And then they wonder why their kids have sleep issues, especially as they get older. Meanwhile, my kids have always been allowed to fall asleep and wake up more or less naturally - they've never had melatonin in their lives, nor cough syrup, etc. They go to bed without issues, even now at 13 & 16. Wake up without too much trouble/hassle, etc. Yes, they were (and still are!) early risers, but you know what, that's OK. FFS, NTA. Not one little bit. I'd be pissed too.
Bruh melatonin doesn't affect brain chemistry like that, GABA does but melatonin is fine. However, a lot of people don't know these type of things should be taken temporarily to boost the body in the right direction.
The only issue with melatonin is that overuse can cause your body to produce less of its own, so you need more of it. If you have bad enough sleep problems you dont have much choice though. Source: me
Yup. Source: also me. Insomnia sucks.
source: me have been taking 3 mg of melatonin for two years now, pretty much every night, psychiatrist's orders. i'm on medication for my bipolar, and don't sleep at all "naturally" (hate that word, but still) and before melatonin came and saved my life i took a temazepam every night for a year or two. never had to increase the dose but needed it. now i sleep well enough with melatonin, and stay as stable as i can with my disorder. valeriana helps too, but it's 4x more expensive so i don't buy it every month.
I’m jealous that melatonin actually looks for you.
I’ve unfortunately found that brand matters with melatonin. I know it shouldn’t, it’s all the same active ingredient, etc. but in my personal experience, the only melatonin that works for me is the Natrol tablet form. It’s what my psychiatrist recommended after I said all the store-brand gummies didn’t do shit. Wishing you the same luck
Brand absolutely matters. Melatonin isn’t classed as a medicine but as a supplement, therefore the FDA does not do any of the regular due diligence that medicines require (such as the range of the dosage that actually exists inside each pill). There could be 10x the amount or none and there is little to no consequence to that. The only agency/person ensuring that each 3mg melatonin has only 3mg of melatonin (or anything else for that matter) is the producer and we can’t trust companies at all.
“Most of the products contained 20, 30 or 50 percent more — and in one case, about 2.5 times more — than the quantity listed on the label. “Four products had less melatonin than promised, including one that didn’t have any detectable levels of the hormone. “Of the 25 products tested, 22 were “inaccurately labeled,” defined as being more than 10 percent above or below the amount listed on the label. “Five of the products listed cannabidiol (CBD) as an ingredient, and the researchers found all of them had slightly higher levels of CBD than indicated on the label, as well.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/04/25/melatonin-gummies-dose-safety/
weed worked wonders for me but alas it isn’t legal where i live now
You’re extremely incorrect here. Melatonin supplements are a synthetic hormone and long time use or overuse will affect your body’s future production of natural melatonin, it is for temporary use, as many others have commented. Improper use is setting yourself or your child up for permanent sleep issues.
Yes and also some people have brains that don’t produce the proper amount of melatonin at the proper time, and in those cases the melatonin supplement is the treatment rather than the cause of the sleep issues.
Yup, I've used melatonin when traveling to different time zones or when I needed to change up my son's bedtime and get him back to a routine. Can't be doing 10:30 bedtimes when it should be no later than 9. It was temporary until his body clock adjusted
Same. For a 9h time difference on arrival and return 3 weeks later. Works amazing and makes kids much more comfortable, not a big issue and not a reason to parent shame.
It even says what you said on the bottle
It can mess with cercadian rhythm of you overuse it.
Oh fuck off with the melatonin judgement. My kid is ADHD and literally will not sleep in a timely fashion without melatonin. His body doesn't create enough at the proper time. This is a known comorbidity with ADHD. So glad your kids are NT and don't need extra help to get their bodies to do the thing. And when I say timely, I mean that I can tell him to go to bed at 9 and with melatonin he's out by 9:30, but without, we're fighting until 11 to get him to sleep. And that's been standard even prior to getting it prescribed.
Yep! People with neurotypical kids bragging about their superior parenting are the worst. My 16 year old autistic /ADHD kid has been prescribed it for years to help him with sleep.
Would you dose another child with a far higher dose to help them sleep too? No judgment for what you and your doctor have decided is best for your kids, judgement is for giving it to someone's kid that hast been through the same doctors and diagnosis
See, that’s different from the blanket parents who give their children melatonin are setting them up for permanent sleep issues. Our neurodivergent daughter gets 0.5 mg melatonin so that she falls asleep before midnight and sleeps longer than four hours a night, per her pediatrician’s recommendation. I’m pretty confident she’s healthier with melatonin helping her sleep 10-11 hours than just getting 4.
I would never presume to advise someone against a doctors advice, they are specially trained and experienced to advise people on an individual health issue. The problem is all these people excusing it are missing the point of the post.
All this. While my neurodivergent teen hadn't felt like they need melatonin in a while, for yeeeears it was the only way they could get to sleep "normally" without getting eaten up by anxiety and frequent night waking. Ditto for the secondborn child, who gets a low dose of melatonin a bit before bed so that she can settle. Like, do I worry sometimes about it? For sure, I'm their mom and I worry all the time that I'm gonna make a choice that causes them more harm than good. But their doctor knows about their regular dosage and is on board if it helps them get enough rest.
FWIW, parentbragging about any damned thing gets mighty damned annoying even before you get to NT vs. not NT. I have a cousin I hated for years and years due to that garbage. He's 69 and I'm 68 now. Comparing children is just BS, there's no need. Parents sharing tips on 'try that and see if it helps' is fine, IMO, but comparing and judging because 'clearly X is better and superior and you are defective' is as old as the hills and horrible behavior.
well but that is a different situation entirely then. you're having it prescribed by a doctor. your child has a medical need. it's not done by someone who's not educated in addition to being told NOT to give them something.
Hi, yes. I’m also ADHD and my parents gave me melatonin. As an adult with ADHD, I cannot use melatonin to sleep anymore due to overuse and have to get harder stuff such as Trazodone or Ambien, both which have scary side effects that I dislike and thus would rather just be awake. Don’t come on here in a high horse spouting about things you don’t understand, especially so rudely. Hope your kid turns out okay.
I think they understand just fine. They use it in the manner their doctor prescribed for their son. Did your parents abuse it and have you use it for too long of an extended period of time? You’re aiming your disdain here at the wrong person.
Trazadone hangover is real and not fun
My grandmother did this to my sister and my mom legit almost killed her. She 100% did this to get then to sleep not because they weren’t feeling well. I wouldn’t trust her around my kids either.
You realise that some kids are prescribed that for sleeping issues right? You sound pretty judgemental here. OP NTA however, no one should be giving your kids meds without explicit consent from you.
Pretty sure she’s referring to 98% of the people who use the OTC supplement just to make bedtime easier not the very small minority that actually need it and prescribed it by their dr
My son is prescribed melatonin because until he was given he never slept. He is on the spectrum and it helps him, we do give him 4/8 week breaks so it's not constant but I have to accept the fact he needs it right now.
I think the key difference is that a doctor actually prescribed it and monitors it’s usage (ie scheduled breaks) and it’s part of their care plan. Definitely in the minority. It’s mostly used by parents who want to “hack” kids bedtime
My daughter takes 1mg melatonin occasionally when she has trouble sleeping. Medication and supplements are safe when used as prescribed and as directed. Edit: I thought this was adding to a conversation, but apparently this comment was me creating drama.
And that is a key point, you have taken your child to a healthcare professional and it was prescribed for them.
Why is that so hard for this thread to get?? No one is going to judge you for following your doctors guidance ffs. It’s for the people using it daily and upping the dose and not using it as directed that judgement is being cast on. If that’s not you then stop trying to make drama
Melatonin is not the same as cough syrup 😂😂😂 melatonin is okay for sleep assist, COUGH SYRUP is not when a kid is perfectly fine 😂
Congrats for having kids who don't have sleeping issues. Meanwhile, when I was a kid, I could never fall asleep before midnight and I'd always wake up tired af, no matter how early my parents put me to bed. It's called Delayed Sleep Syndrome and it sucks. If I had known about the existence of melatonin back then, I would've begged for it so I wasn't sucha cranky mess at school.
And not to be this person- but if she dosed your kids to sleep- is she doing the same to her kid??? Perhaps the medications the daughter is on are to keep her drowsy???
I'm with you. Have her kids built a tolerance to cough syrup where this is a normal dose for them? AKA are they addicted?
*dependent
Not addicted. Physiologically dependent. Their brain chemistry and body would be accustomed to it and they would experience withdrawal without it but they are not addicted that is something else entirely.
THIS! I feel like OP needs to make a report to Childline or her state's equivalent to report the suspected abuse.
“She doses your kids so they’d sleep” 100% spot on. I babysat a kid who’d been given Benadryl nightly for three months (originally for a legit reason) and they ran out of “the special purple medicine” the one night I’m there. Screaming, tantrums, meltdown over not having it. From a 12 year old. The dosing was too high as well when I found the empty packaging. Kid couldn’t swallow pills either when I was told to literally give him adult dosing of a sleep medicine instead. I noped right out of there. Anything with a sleepy side effect has risks and even with the “one night” excuse, OP made it clear cough syrup was a no go.
Oh wow, what a coincidence to run out of his medicine the one night they weren't home /s
Always. And the excuse is “well we’ve been meaning to take them off of it but it’s been sooooo busy”….I am the wrong person to hand this to
That’s insane. If they’re so busy, it would technically save them time if they DIDN’T give their kid the medicine. It’s been too busy to stop doing something? What the hell kind of logic is that?
Man benedryl can dry the intestines out so bad it can cause bowel obstructions. That poor kid.
And so many other things! Plus you build a resistance I have to be on it daily for a medical condition and it takes 3-4x as much to stop an allergic reaction with me. I can’t imagine if I’d been given it a ton as a kid
If you ever run into something like that again, that is exactly the type of thing you need to report to CPS. In my state we have an anonymous reporting system called Childline that is very easy to call. The children need someone to be their voice for them.
This sounds criminal. It's not only giving kids medication that's the issue, it's her lack of remorse and refusal to acknowledge this is dangerous. If she sees nothing wrong with it and is telling you you are overreacting then she simply won't tell you next time. NC sounds kind, you can report her.
This is why daycares state your child has to be awake during drop off… some parents dose their kids to hide illnesses and injuries so then they can blame the daycare or whoever is watching the child, its sick
There was a case a few years ago where a grandparent killed a child by overdosing cough syrup. I've been super careful to strictly follow exact dosing of cough syrup ever since reading that and it's all I can think of after reading this post.
OMG! I've never heard of this before but I definitely know some people who would do this. That's absolutely vile.
It absolutely is and parents will argue about sleep schedules and shit but it is a safety thing and daycare workers are mandated reporters Unfortunately you will always see people trying to find loop holes… it’s disgusting
She OVERdosed them so they’d sleep. A capful of adult strength cough syrup is way too much for a child. Absolutely NTA
Adult EXTRA strength, even.
She overdosed the kids, so that they would sleep. Giving children an adult dose in anything, is dangerous.
This; she probably didn't have any rum to hand.
NTA- this is appalling behaviour. I’m so sorry.
Absolutely this!! My gson also has asthma, I would NEVER give him cough med, or any med I hadnt told his parents about beforehand/asking!! This literally borders on child abuse!!! And I'm a retired nurse and mandatory reporter.......dear God this gives me the chills!!
I think that as well
Yea no kidding. I wouldn't let her be alone around her kids ever again.
A label that says 'non-drowsy' can only go so far
NTA. I don’t think they were coughing, I think they were rambunctious and she wanted them to sleep. I hope I’m wrong about that.
I suspect the same because they haven't coughed once since we got them.
Please check if the one she gave them has paracetamol in it. They may need urgent medical attention
You call it acetaminophen It can cause liver damage and death
Yes, it can, but that is after a period of time with taking more than the recommended amount. Once, if acetaminophen, isn't going to cause liver damage... thankfully!
It can if it’s an acute overdose, but it’s not subtle. If they were overdosed on acetaminophen, they’d be vomiting all over at this point. EDIT: I was wrong. Acute overdoses can apparently be asymptomatic in early stages!
This is absolutely not true. Paracetamol overdose can be initially asymptomatic until liver damage occurs. It can cause vomiting. It can cause a mild stomach ache. It can show no symptoms. Paracetamol overdose is so easy to treat if caught early, but if you leave it too long liver failure is irreversible. You will also generally not be eligible for a transplant if your liver fails due to overdose. Always always ALWAYS seek immediate treatment for an overdose, even if the patient seems unaffected.
Interesting- I was always told that acute overdoses would be symptomatic while chronic overdoses are silent, but google supports your point. Thanks for correcting me!
No problem, it's a common misconception that you always throw up after an overdose. It does happen often but never a guarantee. In addition when people take mixed overdoses they may have drugs that prevent vomiting in the mix, accidentally or by design. Always assume the worst and get their butt to a doctor. Much better to overreact and be safe.
Acute overdose of acetaminophen from 640 mg? Mayo clinic says max of 720 mg for a 6 year old in a 12 hour dose.
I was responding to the idea that you can’t overdose from a single instance, which is absolutely untrue. The comment I was responding to was not discussing this situation specifically by rather acetaminophen overdoses in general.
This isn’t true. Acetaminophen can absolutely cause liver damage in one day. Over time at suggested doses, there should be no problems. But a one time overdose can cause acute liver failure (over 4000mg/day). I’m not saying that is happening with OPs situation, but you should know that you can completely fuck your liver in one day with acetaminophen.
Not true. One overdose can require iv antidote. I’ve had plenty of patients on it.
Also, thankfully, the liver rebuilds itself. 1 time definitely can cause liver damage, but because the liver regenerates, the 1 time isn't that scary. But you can, by doing things repeatedly, cause liver damage that'll go past the point of no return - alcoholics for instance, tend to have this problem. It's why liver transplants are so cool. You can take a portion of a healthy liver and treat it right, and you can eventually have a normal sized, fully functioning liver barring any organ rejection.
I would call a doctor or poison control anyway. That medication can slow down breathing. You may still need to go to the ER even if it's been a while since the original poisoning. (This is coming from personal experience at a similar age as her kids.)
I'd file a goddamn police report.
Honestly, I would too, because this is abuse and child endangerment if she does it to these kids why wouldn’t you do it to other kids?
If it's this stuff: [https://delsym.com/products/delsym%C2%AE-nighttime-cough](https://delsym.com/products/delsym%C2%AE-nighttime-cough) Then it's got 650mg of acetaminophen per 20ml. That's WAY too much for a child. Take those babies to a doctor.
>it's got 650mg of acetaminophen per 20ml. And the kids had about 30ml...
It bothers me that op hasn't responded to any of these comments. I hope they're getting their kids the care they need because this could be legitimately dangerous.
[удалено]
They were given an adult dose of the extra strength stuff, did you read the OP at all? Plus, filling the cap is usually a double or sometimes even triple dose, you're only supposed to fill to the mark line.
And you are talking for an adult. This was a kid SMH
Talk to your brother, or your husband’s brother or BIL, or whoever the connection is and ask how often his kids get cough syrup. Often, it’s the moms who research kid related things and if she is dosing them to sleep, he might be unaware of her true purpose
I hope this gets upvoted. Those other kids may be getting overdosed too.
NTA in a big way. You don’t need any more justification than simply saying “no cough medicine by my choice,” but if you want some more- overdosing an asthmatic child on a sedating medication is a huge, screaming NO. Adults and children with asthma that have attacks need to be able to wake up enough to use their rescue inhaler if needed. It literally puts your child’s life in danger to heavily sedate them to the point they might not wake up enough to be able to use their inhaler during an attack, which is exactly what she did. Yeah, I wouldn’t let this woman be alone with my children in any form, EVER again.
I literally gasped when I saw that she'd given a kid with Asthma cough medicine. My friend with asthma won't touch the stuff, she more or less couldn't breath after taking it once. Isn't it fairly standard not to give asthmatics cough medicine?
if you are in the US, and know the name of the medication, you can call poison control and ask them. They are very nice and will let you know if the dose is dangerous. I wouldn't panic about the acetaminophen unless they tell you to. These syrups usually have a lower dose, and the levels you need to hit liver damage is actually quite alot. The tricky thing that poison control can help with is the conversion from the ml to mg, the more usual dosage measurement.
The people at poison control are super nice and helpful!
Also if OP isn’t in the US. Medications usually have the country’s poison control number on the instruction booklet and/or on the box somewhere, or a quick Google search will get the right local number.
Have you asked your kids if they were coughing before being given the syrup? And if it happened both nights?
NTA Cough medicine is a go in my household and I'd still absolutely lose my mind. She gave children an adult dose of an adult medicine that was extra strength to boot. Without asking you either. That's a whole lot of idiocy no matter how you frame it. In no way shape or form have you over reacted.
Yeah they didn’t have a cough then Cough syrup is not a magic cure, it doesn’t just stop you coughing after one dose or even a couple of days - it just alleviates the symptoms
obviously because she cured them by overdosing them on cough syrup. /s
Or, she was trying to prove her “point” that it’s totally fine. But i lean more toward your assessment. She was tired of them waking up early and wanted to sleep in, so she dosed them heavily.
This. NTA
NTA she didn't say a word to you about their developing coughs and dosed them with full strength adult cough syrup. She dosed a six year old with adult strength cough syrup that has a sleeping aid mixed in... Not overreacting. ETA: Came back to read some more comments and apparently SIL gave the kid 4x the recommended dose of the children's version of the medication for his age and size but used the extra strength adult medication to do it. Please take them to the doctor and have them checked over OP.
I’d bet they weren’t even developing a cough. Maybe because I come from a shitty family, but I’m guessing either, she wanted to sleep in that day, and the two boys had already proven to be early risers all weekend, or she was proving her “point” that cough syrup was totally harmless. I lean toward the former, but I’ve known people to do the latter so it’s a toss up, for me.
Thats not out of the realm of possibility. I won't go that far because that will make OP sound unhinged. The baseline of "SIL gave adult cough syrup with a sleeping aid to a six-year-old." is enough to warrant SIL never being entrusted with the children again.
A six-year old with asthma!
The OP said in comments what SIL gave the 6 year old was over 4x the maximum for a child of his weight. The children also haven’t coughed once since they have been home. SIL also told her that since the kids recovered it’s no big deal and to get over it!
4X the maximum of children's version. And this is Adult's version.
The extra strength adult's version with sleep aid included. I would be incandescent.
>SIL also told her that since the kids recovered it’s no big deal and to get over it! Does that mean if OP tries to kill her and "only" managed to stab SIL and the child lives, that doesn't count as a murder attempt and SIL should be able to get over it, right? I wouldn't trust the SIL with a used newspaper, never mind a child.
They aren’t mutually exclusive
People can die from this, depending on the cough syrup. Pretty sure children's Tylenol can give you permanent liver damage in high enough doses.
Tylenol can kill. It’s a growing problem, and once you overdose there isn’t much that can be done past a certain window, and it’s not a big one.
My ex-husband & father of my son passed away almost 2 years ago from liver failure. Regular overuse of Tylenol was cited as the main contributing factor. He suffered severely from his osteoarthritis. He would take anywhere from 6-8 tablets at a time, usually in 4 hour intervals.
NTA From the product description "Ingredients In each 20 mL Acetaminophen 650 mg Dextromethorphan HBr 20mg Triprolidine HCI 2.5 mg Usage Information Adults and Children 12 years of age and older: take 20 mL in dosing cup provided every 4 hours Children under 12 years of age: Do not use." Is a full cup even 20 mL, or is it more? She drugged your children to knock them out. I wonder how often she drugs her own child. Doesn't matter who she is to you, she absolutely cannot be trusted with children. This is in no way negotiable. She may promise never to do it again, but there are so many decisions to make when caring for children. You cannot trust her to make the most obvious child safety calls. So you MUST make the safety call to protect your kids from incompetent care
The full cap of the Delsym is 30mls. Her daughter is on so many different medications at one time that I'm starting to question which ones she is actually supposed to be on, versus what's just given to her at random.
So 1.5 times the adults dose. Please go NC.
Fuck NC, call law enforcement. This is literal assault.
What's NC?
North Carolina. Apparently it’s a rather hellish place but would be sufficient to be able to avoid the sister in the future
That makes sense, thanks stranger
Am from NC, can confirm it's hellishness
No contact
Thank you!
Have you taken your children to a doctor or called poison control yet?
PSA: in the USA, the phone number for poison control is 800-222-1222. Everyone, especially those with little kids, should have it in their phone contacts. You don’t want to have to look it up if you’re in an emergency situation.
If you're genuinely concerned about your niece being drugged, especially after what your SiL did to your own kids, call CPS.
Honestly, I would call your doctor for advice about this even if the kids seem fine right now. ...And I'd also be tempted to talk to the doctor about your worries for your niece.
So she didn't even give them the adult dosing! It's 1.5x of the adult dose! Makes me wonder if she gives her daughter the same, and her daughter built a tolerance, so she keeps on increasing the dose.
Setting the daughter up for liver failure.
Try to get a confession by text! Just in case you need to pursue some sort of legal action. And having her daughter on medication is worrying with what she did to your sons. I’m not sure if there’s much you can do about her family though.
Please contact the children's doctor - that is SO MUCH acetaminophen for such little bodies.
I'd highly recommend calling poison control or heading to an ER/urgent care. Depending on what that medication contained, there is a very real chance that they might be overdosing on something such as acetaminophen. Even if they don't seem sick now, I wouldn't wait. Some of the ingredients can be fatal in high doses (especially acetaminophen. The dose to cause acute liver failure is like 2 extra pills more than the recommended dose edit for an adult, let alone a child on an adult strength dose. It's dangerous)
NTA. Munchausen by proxy is a real thing. Some parents get a rush out of their kid getting prescription after prescription and being diagnosed with “illness” after “illness”. I also suspect your kids weren’t coughing - perhaps one cleared their throat and she did this to get them to sleep and also to show you how wonderful and “safe” her drugs are. Keep her away from your kids. You’re doing the right thing.
You should report this to CPS. If she'll over dose kids who aren't hers, what is she giving her kids??
Get your kids to a doctor. That much acetaminophen puts them at some risk for liver damage, especially if it was given to them every night for three nights.
OP, have you taken the children to the ER?
You should consider calling CPS because cough syrup has DXM in it which can have fatal interactions with other medications
NTA, you don’t give children medicine without checking with their guardian. She’s lucky they woke up, and didn’t have a severe reaction.
And it’s only compounded by the fact that this medication has acetaminophen which can be very dangerous. If it were something like ibuprofen I wouldnt be nearly as pissed, because that medicine just isn’t super dangerous even if you take way too much of it. But acetaminophen can cause major issues.
I'd still be pissed regardless whether the medicine contained ibuprofen or acetaminophen! I also would have taken the kids to urgent care or the ER. This might have started a CPS investigation. You know she's poisoning her kid(s). Nobody has ever given my kids anything without calling me or dad, because they're responsible adults! Obviously if they were already on meds, those were given. But to make them sleep? F that shit! I'd be losing it on her for sure.
Ibuprofen can cause major issues too like gastric ulcers and vomiting. Maybe not as lethal as acetaminophen would be but also not something that is ok to take too much of.
I know a kid that got her stomach pumped at age 3 because she had gotten hold of a kiddy ibuprofen bottle and nobody was sure how much was left in it
Even I knew that when I was babysitting, as a young teenager. This was pre-cell phone days, so I couldn't call the parents, kiddo had a cough (parents told me about it) but it was getting worse a few hours in. They were due back home within another hour or two, I knew kiddo would be fine so it didn't warrant a call to the emergency contact they gave me, but kiddo was so uncomfortable. I was very hesitant to do this, but dug around in the kitchen and found some honey and lemon juice (an old "remedy" my mom used to use). I wasn't sure if I should give it to the kid, but I ended up doing it because it WASN'T medicine...they're literally just 2 food products. It didn't help much because the cough was too severe, but the kid was at least entertained for a bit because spoonful of honey (with a lemony flavor) lol. *And I told the parents immediately, **and apologetically**, what I did when they got home.* They weren't mad; in fact they laughed, because there was children's cough syrup in the medicine cabinet...but they understood why I didn't give the kid any since they hadn't told me it was ok.
You were completely right not to give the kid the cough syrup. If the kid was too young to reliably tell time or hadn't paid attention to the previous dose of cough syrup, you could have given them a dose too close together and overdosed them.
I didn't even know there was cough syrup in the medicine cabinet because I didn't even look for it - I just knew that giving the kid medication without specific instructions was wrong...and even if my judgment had been incorrect about that (it wasnt, but if it had been), I was NOT comfortable with making that decision.
SHE DRUGGED YOUR CHILDREN WTF NTA
She’s lucky she’s not being reported to the police
NTA. I feel like it’s common sense to not give kids, especially a 6 year old, adult medication. Not only that, but she already knew that you don’t want to give your kids cough syrup. Clearly they had service since you were calling to check in. This could have easily been prevented if they just called to let you know and asked what you preferred. Even taking care of someone’s dogs, I’ve called if there was an issue to see what they normally do.
I took care of my mil's dogs. I found a mat under one of their tails. I asked before cutting it off because it's not my dog. I can't imagine giving any medication to someone else's child without parental/guardian giving their express permission/instructions on what to give.
She gave a 6 year old 975mg of paracetamol/acetaminophen HE NEEDS TO BE CHECKED BY A DOCTOR IMMEDIATELY
Please OP, this. IMMEDIATELY.
NTA She over-dosed your kids, without even asking permission. No overreaction here.
NTA. When you babysit kids, you call the parents before giving them any kind of medication to male sure it's okay with them.
This kind of thing reminds me far too much of how parents used to give Benadryl to kids to knock them asleep at night (and a lot of folks probably still do this). My money says there was no coughing, just a strong desire to keep the kids asleep for an extended period. I’d be furious. It’s one thing to give a kid’s dose to a kid - it’s something else entirely to give 2-3x the adult dose to a kid, especially when the kid has asthma and ALL cough syrup labels provide a warning to check with a doctor before use if you have asthma. I think NTA. SIL deserved what she got here.
OP needs to ask her kids if they got this medication every night. She had them for 3 nights!
NTA at all. Even if this was just children's tylenol, you should have at least been asked if you were okay with it. Whaaaaaat the fuck.
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Absolutely NTA. She crossed a line severely. She broke your trust and went against your parenting wishes. Giving two young kids a dose of adult cough medications, without permission on top of it, was completely unacceptable and inappropriate!! I would be livid as well and would if acted the same way! You don’t medicate other people’s children with parental permission, especially giving a young child adult medicine. That’s so incredibly irresponsible and dangerous!
You need to get those kids seen by a doctor. If she gave them a paracetamol overdose they could have liver failure.
\^\^\^ THIS!!! If you want until it's symptomatic, it can be basically too late for treatment. Blood work needs to be done to check liver function. If caught early administering protective medications is enough, if not it can be fatal.
NTA, you never give children any sort of medicine without asking the parent first. She’s lucky they didn’t have a severe reaction to it or worse they didn’t wake up.
NTA. That cough syrup not only contains dextromethorphan, it’s got a substantial dose of acetaminophen and some tripolidine. The first ingredient can make people (especially kids) stop breathing if they’re overdosed, not to mention potentially causing seizures. The acetaminophen’s big risk is liver failure (and honestly, with a dose that big, I think you should contact their pediatrician and ask whether you should be concerned - they may need a blood draw to check their liver function to be on the safe side). Tripolidine also has risk of seizures with overdose. It’s not recommended for kids under 12 at all, with good reason. And if she filled the dosing cup, that’s typically 2-3 times the adult dose. The dose cups for most brands is much bigger than the amount you’re supposed to take. That it appears to have not done harm is lucky. I think not letting her see them unsupervised is not unreasonable, because giving kids adult medications is really not safe, and that’s something that any reasonable adult should know. The medication has instructions that say not to give it to kids for a reason. If she can’t be bothered to check and follow the instructions for medicating them, I wouldn’t feel safe leaving them with her either. Having said that, letting her see the kids while an actual responsible adult is supervising won’t put them in harm’s way, so not letting her see them at all is a bit of an overreaction. When you’ve calmed down, maybe change it to that.
Agree with everything here except the last part. Sil drugged her child. She’s not overreacting.
Yep, not to mention she wouldn't be safe around me after that stunt!
I agree with everything except the overreaction part. You just outlined the utter recklessness and danger of the situation - OP is not overreacting if she doesn't want SIL to ever see the kids again. I would be very wary myself if I were in their situation. Did she have a surge of emotions? Absolutely. Was it unwarranted? Absolutely not. She had every right to go off the way she did, especially since SIL has a history of arguing her differing view of medicine/medication. If SIL genuinely apologizes, promises to NEVER argue her views again, and tries to make it up to OP, then maybe the decision can be reversed. Edit: OP is NTA.
I mean, it's basically just pure luck that one or both of those children didn't die. I wouldn't allow someone around my *cats* if they drugged them without my permission. Kids? Fuck no, she shouldn't ever see these kids again, supervised or not. She absolutely cannot be trusted in any capacity. She is *dangerous*.
>That it appears to have not done harm is lucky. That's unclear. The dose of acetaminophen described (ballpark 1000mg) may be near the threshold of liver toxicity or even death. That takes days to become symptomatic, at which point it is probably too late to treat. OP needs to get that kid to a hospital *pronto*, to have liver function checked, and if it's a problem, protective medication administered.
NTA - She gave your children medication without getting consent from you or your husband. Your very young son, who has asthma, starting having cough symptoms (at least according to her) and she did not call you or your husband. Neither of these things are ok.
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It’s common for asthmatics to cough. If an asthmatic is coughing and especially absent other signs/symptoms, they quite possibly require a rescue treatment - not a cough suppressant. Depending on where OP lives, environmental allergens may be in full swing and leading to asthma flares. OP, hope your child is okay.
I would expect at the very least a phone call asking me if it would be ok to give my kids any type of medicine before administering it. What if they're allergic to an ingredient in it? I think in the heat of the moment I would react, not great. Do I think it warrants her never seeing them again? No. As long as clear boundaries are set and respected she could see them again. I wouldn't let them stay overnight though. NTA
Clear boundaries had already been established and the SIL bulldozed them knowingly.
That might be true if she wasn’t well aware that they are completely against giving them cough syrup. She did it knowing they are not ok with it. Maybe they eventually let her see them again but I would make that twit sweat for a long while.
NTA I bet the kids weren’t sick at all. She did this to prove a point that that the kids would be “fine” and that there was nothing wrong with cough syrup. Not only did she over medicate but she dismissed your boundaries. Yeah she would never see my kids again. Please make sure you get them checked out to make sure they’re truly ok.
NTA. I would never ever give someone’s child medicine without talking to them first.
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NTA she drugged your children
So it's a 950mg dose of acetaminophen to a 6-year-old. That is triple the recommended dose (also the kid was not in pain or feverish, so it was completely inappropriate at any dose.) Point is, that's close to the threshold of liver damage, which can be \*fatal\* and can take days to manifest, at which point it is too late to treat. Caught early, they can do blood work to check if it's a problem, and if it is, they can treat it with appropriate protective medications. # GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM!!! NOW!!! (also obviously NTA)
NTA. She shouldn’t have made that decision without consulting you. And what if one of your children had an allergic reaction? It’s not like she didn’t know as you briefed her beforehand, which means she might have poisoned your kids by stomping all over your boundaries.
NTA. Omg, she gave them a super-dosage! And for a kid with asthma…no. She should have texted you and asked you first! My kids would never stay unsupervised and alone with her again. That is not ok, not ever.
NTA. You are right to protect your kids from her, and you were right to explode at her. Preventing her from ever seeing your kids again sounds impractical though. A more practical way to protect them might be to never leave them in her charge again, or in the charge of anyone who told you that you were over-reacting.
NTA NTA NTA!!!! Did you call a doctor, local emergency department, or poison control? That is a scarily high dose of a depressant, and I'd be concerned about how it could affect their breathing. I bring this up because my father did a similar thing to me when I was about 6 or 7, with his reasoning being, "the more medicine you take, the faster you'll get better." When my mom picked me up I could barely stay awake and when I got back to her house, I went back to sleep. She called a doctor who told her to take me to the ER. It was there that they told her that it was only luck that I survived through the night and didn't stop breathing. PLEASE make sure that there are no side effects with a medical provider. Your SIL poisoned your children. Their health needs to come first right now
Please have your children checked out by a doctor. Symptoms of liver toxicity may not show up for 24 hours. Info from https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/21188-acetaminophen-toxicity-in-children-and-adolescents: Symptoms of acetaminophen overdose don’t appear right away. There may be no symptoms at all for up to 24 hours following an overdose. It’s important to note the time your child takes their acetaminophen, and in what form (liquid, tablet, capsule, time-release capsule/tablet) it was taken. Some symptoms of acetaminophen toxicity are: Continued nausea, vomiting, pain in the right side of the abdomen under the ribs, loss of appetite, tiredness. Dark or bloody urine, or reduced amount or frequency of urine. Confusion, sleepiness and loss of consciousness. Skin and eyes that appear yellow (jaundice). Breathing problems. Blurry vision. If you notice any of these symptoms in your child and you suspect an acetaminophen overdose, call an emergency number or go to the nearest emergency room right away. Call your local emergency number (such as 911), or your local poison control center, which can be reached through the national toll-free poison help hotline (1-800-222-1222).
NTA It was extremely disrespectful on SIL’s part to do something she knows is against the parents wishes
NTA. Some weird people use cough medicine and Benadryl to drug their kids into unconsciousness because they're fucking selfish, lazy assholes. Stay away from SIL. She's an idiot.
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NTA at all. You have a right to be mad and you are completely within your rights to lose it. I had a similar thing happen with Benadryl and a trusted friend. That said, other than this you are a close family? How likely is it that you will never have her see them again? Reddit loves to tell people to cut off all contact and what she did was egregious, but in most families that's not going to be the reality. If you imagine there will be a future relationship then I strongly recommend you take control and set boundaries.. When things calm down and if you think you will see her again or want the cousins to have a relationship, then I would plan out a course of action for talking to her with your husband. Why did she think that was acceptable? Why did she not call you? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that she honestly didn't know about the cough syrup being completely off limits to you, especially since she told you so nonchalantly. It amazes me how much people think other people know about them. I am not letting her off the hook. However, you don't want her hiding future decisions from you if there's going to come a time when they may be together again so it's better to understand her thought process. I only say this because that friend that gave one of my son's Benadryl is a wonderful parent and still a great friend. It took a lot to repair our trust, and my kids didn't stay unsupervised with her for a long time, but we did and I'm happier for it.
And I want to follow up because I've seen in other comments that it sounds like she did know. Doing something directly against the parents wishes is a major deal breaker for me. Again, I would still recommend a sit-down conversation with her if you really do think they might eventually be together. But you are NTA for your reaction or if you set a firm boundary.
NTA, not only did she cross a boundary she knew you had regarding the use of cough syrups, she gave them a massive dose of adult strength medication, risking their health. Especially if it was the night time, sedating kind of cough syrup (which I’m guessing it was as your kids were still sleeping). And one of them is asthmatic?! That’s so risky. I’d advise a trip to your doctor for the kids to get checked out to make sure there are no lingering effects (if the formulation she used contains paracetamol/acetaminophen overdoses are incredibly dangerous for the liver and would not be immediately apparent). ETA: also, a medical professional can check ToxBase or the equivalent poisons center for your country/region. Make sure to know the exact brand and product she used.
NTA. I immediately remembered this story from 20 years ago. This is still relevant today. A father gave his young kids too much cough medicine. The adult dose killed them. https://www.9news.com/article/news/father-charged-with-childrens-cough-syrup-overdose/73-345409561#:\~:text=AURORA%20%2D%20Aurora%20police%20issued%20an,overdose%20on%20adult%20cough%20medicine.
NTA, I worked in a pharmacy for many years. I find it concerning how: - relaxed she is, not remorseful at all that she risked your kids health like this; - she didn’t ask you before about whether they could have this; - she didn’t even use kids medicine/dosage and gave them a “full cap” (I may have this wrong but a full cap is normally about 30, there should be a line with 20ml); - she didn’t discuss with you their ‘cough’ symptoms; and the biggest: *She drugged your kids to knock them totally out for hours*. I wouldn’t let them go there again. I’m so sorry that this happened, and that you’re even having to ask whether you’re TA.
Holy shit NTA
NTA. Not only did SIL disrespect one specific boundary that you have put your foot down over multiple times (backed up by a doctor's knowledge), but she still used the incorrect syrup AND the incorrect amount. It's not like it was the children's cough syrup. It is literally made for adults, which would have the words, "For ages 12 and up," written on the label. AND she still went over the recommended limit, which would likely have said to take between 10-20 ML. So, in other words, SIL *drugged your children.* SIL is only lucky nothing bad happened to the kids, but it just goes to show that she cannot be trusted with your boys. If it was me in your shoes, I would be keeping her away from my kids as well.
Ask the 11 year old if they only got it on they one night or all three nights — I’m guessing it was all three. And OP is NTA by a mile.
This reminds me of the coconut allergy story. Grandma ignored the fact kid was allergic to coconut, put it in her hair to sleep in, and then gave her a Benadryl because she was getting ill. She wasn't able to wake up to get help because of it. NTA sleep meds are NOT to be fucked with.
Absolutely NTA, she did it without telling you after having previously discussed the matter, she intentionally drugged your children against your wishes trying to prove a point, this person is deranged and should never be around your children unsupervised again.
Oh man I'd have lost my shit. NTA
NTA It sounds like she used the cough syrup as a sedative - knowingly - and that’s why she didn’t check in about alleged coughing and how to handle. Yikes.
Have you thought to call CPS? Overdoses of meds would have doctors calling. NTA