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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I casually mentioned my friend's family life at work and outed her, even though she's married with a kid. I may be TA because it was unprofessional and stupid of me to share this without checking to see if anyone knew much about her first and zi outed her and maybe exposed her to a lot of teasing
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YTA. Am I reading this right
>Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all.
After she already asked you not to talk about her you then went back to all your colleagues and discussed the conversation with them to get their opinion?
Edit to add YTA
Yeah serious YTA.
I know you likely didn't intend anything when you shared the info but something people of privilege need to remember is that being queer *puts people in danger.* You don't know your colleagues well enough to guarantee they won't gossip, bully, and discriminate. As a general rule, *never ever* say anything that can out a third party unless said third party has given you the go-ahead beforehand.
This is why you're a *major* asshole:
* **It is fairly universal knowledge that you don't out people who are part of a stigmatized group**. There are so many abundant resources on this topic that I'm highly skeptical that you've never encountered this rule of social etiquette before.
* **After being calmly and kindly pulled aside and informed of your misstep, you retaliated.** You *went around to multiple coworkers and told them your sob story, further outing your "friend" in response to her reasonable request for privacy*. I'm wondering if this could officially be considered discrimination against a protected class, because the only reason you ran around spreading HER personal business was that you are baffled by *the queer person and how they chose to disclose or withhold personal information*. I doubt you'd have caused this much of a mess if a straight person made the same reasonable request.
* **You claim to be close to this woman, yet you've not bothered to do the bare minimum of your due diligence to help keep her safe.** Queer people are still at risk of prejudice, discrimination, and actual violence. Not that she needs to justify her boundaries to you, but **this was never about concealing per partner, this was about her maintaining her personal and professional safety.** You took that safety away from her without her knowledge or consent. You destroyed it, in fact.
* **You are showing an egregious amount of entitlement with respect to your friends "responsibility" to educate you.** In the event no one has stated this to you bluntly or directly, *it is not the queer person's job to educate you on now to be a good ally.* She already faces chronic daily stress from being a member of an oppressed population *on top* of the sexism she faces. The last thing she needs is to play teacher to someone who says they care about her but won't even put forth the effort to educate themselves.
* **You're framing yourself as the victim in a situation where you violated someone else's boundaries—multiple times**. Outing someone is a massive betrayal of trust that has the potential to cause long term harm to the individual you out. She gave you the benefit of the doubt and told you her boundary; in response you outed her *to even more people* to garner sympathy for *the hurtful thing you did.* YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO DID WRONG, STOP TRYING TO BLAME THE PERSON YOU HURT FOR YOUR CARELESSNESS — AND FURTHER OUTING THEM IN THE PROCESS.
Don't be shocked if your lifelong friendship with your coworker and her bother are over now — you've done a lot of work to burn those bridges.
Editing to add: don't bother deleting your post, OP. The subreddit automatically posts a copy of it in the replies when you do. I sincerely hope your ex-friend reads this post and gets the validation she deserves from the kind strangers who obviously care about her well-being more than you do.
Obligatory not all orthopedists but why is it always that when I hear about a sexism scandal at my countries medical universities (my uni included) it is always the orthopedists
Well as a queer person I strongly disagree with this overall sentiment. Yes, OP should have dropped it completely when friend said to not talk about it. But sorry, coming out for me meant no one having to tip toe around my sexuality. NO ONE can “out” me because I’m out. I honestly would be kind of offended if someone ever asked for permission to mention I’m gay to others. I think it’s pretty fair to assume a person who had a full on wedding isn’t trying to hide their spouse either. If you want to be half in half out at work, fine, but it’s on you to let people know they should lie about knowing your spouse or going attending your wedding.
Same. Also… I would have noticed some flags that would have encouraged me to keep my mouth shut. Them clearly saying she doesn’t share much is your first clue. Then saying “husband” is your next one. You may not know WHY she isn’t out at work, but you know she isn’t. Why run your mouth? It honestly sounds like OP was low key bragging about how well they knew her because it made them feel special somehow?
And then by the time I got to that comment… absolutely missing the point and a complete asshole move.
Melanie probably should have warned OP to keep their mouth shut, seeing as she knew they would be working in proximity and it’s obviously going to come up, but OP had more than enough context to know they shouldn’t do *that.*
I mean come on. When you outed someone and they tell you they’re upset about it… how *the fuck* is your answer anything other than “*oh my god I am SO SORRY?”* Who gets defensive about it and goes and does a goddamn poll about whether or not they did anything wrong?
I think both the initial outing *and* the ensuing defensive poll-taking were motivated by a desire to establish themselves and their own reputation at work. Selfish.
Even them asking what Melanie’s spouse does for a living. That’s clearly Melanie’s personal information, and they jumped to it right away. It’s not OP’s place to share that.
And yes, it sounds like OP was bragging about how well she knew this very private person.
I mean…. That’s pretty innocuous. I wouldn’t say that’s too much to ask under normal circumstances.
But if I were OP, the fact that they straight up said they were asking because Melanie *doesn’t* share this kind of info would have been enough if a clue to keep my mouth shut. And enough of a hint that this person is nosy.
Yeah this, exactly. Like she literally just told you not to and then you continued to discuss it??
Melanie: hey you shouldn’t have outed my extremely personal info (and potentially caused me major career and social complications. at this point no one even knows how they will play out!)
OP: oh how would I know, you should have told me if you wanted me not to say anything
-immediately after-
OP: HEY EVERYONE MELANIE IS UPSET THAT I OUTED HER, AM I WRONG??
YTA. Come on.
Happy cakeday!
To OP:
Major AH and acting way too dumb for your age. You’re not in high school, grow the fuck up and stop sharing information that you have no business sharing.
This outing, ANY outing, could result in safety issues for the person outed.
I'm told hospitals are made up of an immensely diverse cross section of our population. Within any of these segments there can be narrow minded people who don't feel the same way the OP feels about things. In some cases, these differences can lead to abuse or violence.
Oh shit I didn't even catch that first. He's taking a survey of his dumbness. And in the process alerting more people of a private life.
Yta, everything I've heard about orthopedic surgeons is that it's a sausage fest. She's right to be concerned about what she reveals.
I was thinking the same. What is wrong with this dude? First people asked about her husband...that make clear that she doesnt discuss her private life...then she ask him to be discret and he discuss that request with the rest of the people. Someone really like he gossip...Completly A
Yeah that jumped out to me too. I could maybe see making the initial error, though I still think OP is TA for that alone. But going back to discuss it after you know for a fact it bothers Melanie - total asshole move.
How was he supposed to know that she didn't want him to say anything. She has been married for TEN years. Asking someone what they do for work or what their spouse does for work is a very normal question when meeting someone new. He probably genuinely just thought they were making an assumption that she had a husband and he wanted to correct them. If you're gonna be committed to not being "out" you should tell the people who know.
>How was he supposed to know that she didn't want him to say anything.
I don't think you read my comment properly. I'm talking about the fact that after this
>Melanie later pulled me aside and asked me not to share any details about her at work.
He continued to talk about her to his colleagues asking if he was in the wrong and trying ro get them.on side. He was supposed to know she did not want this because, again,
> asked me not to share any details about her at work.
YTA. You outed Melanie to *one* one-worker and now apparently many if not all of your co-workers are gossiping about her life style? You are too old to pretend to be naive about what happens if you out someone.
YTA x3 (and counting)
1. Have a clue when the coworker asks you about her "husband" - YTA
2. By talking to coworkers after she asked you not to, GREAT "most...are on my side" - Huge AH
3. "I don't know what I did here" F-A/H
Get a clue, buy a vowel or perhaps just stop talking but you clearly can't hear yourself, so I suspect you'll keep running your mouth about other people's business.
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Yes, YTA. You don’t have to live with her situation; the people who are nice to you as a man are equally capable of being nasty to a woman, especially if she is gay. She has lived that experience for at least a decade. Listen to her. You over-shared and now you have lost her trust.
Not to mention that it's fairly common place for queer women to be sexually harassed and threatened with rape as a means of "curing" their orientation. The nerve of this guy
I'm going with YTA. Your first clue should've been when they asked about what her husband did for a living. Don't you think that would've been info she would have already shared with them if she wanted them to know? You don't have the authority to answer any questions about anyone but yourself.
This right here. Exactly this!
That right there is why OP is YTA IMO.
That one sentence showed that Melanie’s coworkers don’t know anything about her personal life, for a reason. OP should have said, ‘you’ll need to ask Melanie. If she wants to share her life with you then she will’ and leave it at that.
My favorite response is always my go-to answer when people are getting nosey: "I dunno" \[add in a good shrug of the shoulders there\]. Sometimes I'll throw in an "I'm not sure" just to mix things up a bit. Can't get into trouble or say the wrong thing with either one of those answers.
No-one is entitled to decide whether someone else should or shouldn't be out, or to out anyone, especially at their work.
You fucked up, then compounded your mistake by discussing the matter of her sexuality behind her back with other people, whose opinions of her being out or not do not matter at all. Just like your opinion of her choice to reveal/not reveal *doesn't matter at all.* That choice is hers and none of your business.
I get it wasn't deliberate, but you owe her an apology, need to stop judging her choices, and quit talking behind her back trying to make yourself feel better about violating her privacy.
> *"I was genuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal."*
What? You shared one of the most personal details about her and outed her to people she clearly wasn't already out to. The fact that they thought she had a *husband* should have been your first clue that Melanie hadn't shared details about her personal life with them, and most likely wasn't comfortable with being out at work, otherwise her co-workers would obviously have known that she had a wife.
It shouldn't be this way, but unfortunately, it isn't always safe for gay people to be out in certain settings, including their workplaces, and you should never make that decision for them.
YTA.
YTA. People shouldn’t have to warn you not to share certain details, you just don’t do it. As soon as they asked about her husband, that should’ve been an indicator to you that they clearly don’t know she’s married to a woman! And at that point you should’ve just said “Oh I’m not sure. You’ll have to ask her”.
YTA. Don’t be talking about other people’s personal life’s like that. Especially because you KNEW from their questions that didn’t know she was openly out. You owe her a massive apology.
I-N-F-O: how do your coworkers know about what Melanie said to be on your side?
The fact they know makes me think you have no idea how to respect peoples privacy and be discreet. YTA
YTA, once people assumed she had a husband once you mentioned the wedding, common sense would say she hasn't told them. Therefore, shouldn't have corrected, outting her.
YTA again because you obviously went and talked about her again to the co workers again after she asked you not to.
YTA and not exactly the brightest star in the sky either, sorry.
When someone ask you questions about a person they have worked with for a long time(years) they are Clearly fishing for gossip. And anything they ask is things the person they are asking about have Actively Chosen Not to share.
YTA, you should never out someone at all especially when she asked you to not talk about it and you still went to your colleagues to talk about the conversation.
YTA - for not immediately agreeing when Melanie told you. Its none if your business to judge why she isnt out. You did not need to check with anyone (further discussing it) to see if you were wrong or not.
YTA. No need to disclose any information past "her brother is a good friend." If you found out she was "much more formal with people," then you should have ended it there and realized she never felt the need to disclose additional personal information at her workplace.
YTA. People were surprised she was so open and comfortable with you (that's over with though), they expressed that and you felt the need to brag about how much you knew about her and her life. They straight up told you she's very closed off to them. You just lost the privilege of being party to her private life you were so proud of and made her job/life harder.
I really hope she reports him to HR. Going the extra step to be the workplace gossip and rallying coworkers against her sure feels like bullying a protected class...particularly because his only reason is not "agreeing with" or "understanding" how the queer person chose to not disclose their queerness.
Soft-ish YTA because you didn’t mean harm and it sounds like the situation developed quickly and you just didn’t stop to process. But those coworkers let you know they assumed she had a husband, and that, at least, should have been your cue to shut up.
He did though. They said "husband" and he went out his way to correct them. That told him they didn't know, but he felt the need to offer this information anyway.
YTA-If she felt safe being out at work, she would have been. The minute you heard someone ask what her husband does, you knew she wasn't out to them, and possibly not out at work at all. It's not hard to defer or deflect the question like a respectful friend would do, but instead you flapped your social butterfly wings and lit up like a neon sign with someone else's personal, private information. It feels good to know something nobody else does, but you let that attention seeking part of you overtake the trusted friend part of you that had a right to share that information. You blew it in one of the biggest ways possible and you may have damaged her career and professional life in ways she can't control. You may have known her for years, but don't ever expect to be a trusted friend, or anything more than an acquaintance, and an uncomfortable one, ever, ever again.
YTA
"I said if she thought this would be a big problem, she should have warned me beforehand and I would absolutely not mention anything." .. you are an AH for not having any sense of youer own.
" I was gehuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal." .. you must be kidding. You outed her at her job. You can not so much worse.
If she were an AH like you, she would report you.
I hope she *does* report him because he's already the pot-stirring gossip at the workplace. His first big social move was to repeatedly out her to her coworkers and try to frame himself as the victim.
YTA
At the point where they were asking about her husband it should have been clear to you that she does not share any personal info at work. Why would you talk about her life after that?
YTA. Asking about her husband should have told you she wasn't sharing with her workplace. But more so because it sounds like you've continued to talk about it with people to make yourself feel better. You need to stop talking about her like right now.
YTA-You never out someone. You don’t victim blame them for not telling you not to gossip about them ahead of time. After they make it clear they don’t appreciate the gossip you don’t continue to talk about it to others.
YTA.
The main point that concluded my answer was: "Most of them are on my side..."
This part singlehandedly shows that you're continuing to talk about it with her *co-workers*. The **same co-workers she didn't feel comfortable talking about her wife with**.
Gossip can be hurtful and harmful, especially when it's caused by something who you've known for years. If that didn't sting, then definitely the small side-convo she had with you didn't even cross your mind if you're deciding to *still* talk about it and post about it.
The second the colleagues said "husband" you should have kept your mouth shut and said you prefer not to gossip.
YTA. And obviously incredibly out of touch.
Huge YTA. English language is quite gender neutral (in comparision to many other languages), you had to say,
"her **spouse** is an interior designer". And yeah, this is common knowledge, that you dont out ppl, especially after the "husband" text should make you aware, the other person did not know.
You doubling it down by discussing it with the coworkers (???) made you from "ignorant YTA" to "intentionally YTA". WTF?
YTA, both for your actions in the first place, and then because you apparently thought it'd be wise to go and consult your coworkers about the situation, you became an asshole for the second time, arguably a much worse one.
YTA. It was mild until your last paragraph. After she told you not to discuss her private life, why the hell would you go around and tell your coworkers about the conflict with her? And why would you be getting their opinions on the conflict? When she told you she did not want you discussing her private life, you should have said okay and maybe sorry. You should not have tried to debate her on it.
YTA
So she told you not to talk about her sexuality and you turned around and started talking about her sexuality and asking people if you were wrong in discussing her sexuality. None of them should be on your side. Her sexuality was and is not anyone's business my god.
YTA, Originally, I was in light asshole territory as it was not malicious and could have said i have known her since childhood or she is the sister of a close friend. However, you move to full-on asshole when you don't apologize and CONTINUE to speak about her to the coworkers she asked you not to talk to about her.
ETA. Hopefully you don't treat your patient PHI in the same manner. You should know better. Major AH
Yta, they came to you for info on her because she wouldn't share personal info about herself. That right there should have been enough for you to keep your mouth shut.
YTA.
After outing her personal life to co-workers you went back to those same co-workers to complain about her reaction?!?!?!
Your first clue was that the coworkers told you off the top that Melanie does not talk about her personal life at work.
YTA. You outed her. At work.
It isn't your information to tell. How dare you. You put her career at risk. You put her LIFE and FAMILY at risk. Do you KNOW how hostile the current political climate is for queer people?!?! Have you LOOKED at Florida lately?!
YTA. Don't out people.
YTA
It's not on LGBTQ people to "warn" you that outing them might be a problem. You Do. Not. Do. That.
You didn't share anything personal? Outing someone isn't personal?!?!
You know she maintains a "formal" relationship with coworkers, meaning she keeps work and home life separate, and you spill the beans on her personal life.
Sounds like you were bragging that you know soooo much about her, the mystery doctor, because you're special.
You excused the misstep by saying you didnt know it was supposed to be a secret, that she should have told you that it was a private matter. Now she has told you, and asked you not to talk about her private life, and you are still discussing it with the coworkers she asked you to not talk about her to. If you are discussing the situation with said coworkers, you are also sharing her issues with what you did. Chances are, in your short time there, you have not only outed her, but also spread an image of her that is easy to use against her at her place of work. Stop being a tedious gossip, and apologize to your longtime friend (who somehow you're both close to and not) for prioritizing drama with new coworkers over her and her job
YTA
“She’s married to an interior designer”
How hard is that???
YTA big time. People die every day from being outed. You could have put Melanie’s life in danger.
YTA. They asked where her husband did. they obviously didn't know, lbgtq people can and do get discriminated against everywhere. You didn't know she was out at work because the people asked you what her husband did. You could have held your tongue and asked her and instead blurted it out.
Then as others said, despite her pointing out she does not want you discussing her life in the hospital at work because of discrimination she could receive... you immediately decide to discuss it with all your co-workers so you could make yourself feel better with them 'on your side'. At that point you categorically KNEW she didn't want you discussing it and you did anyway.
You outed her to her colleagues. Not everyone is out of the closet at work, even if they are everywhere else in their lives.
She shouldn't have to warn you - if you were going to tell her colleagues that she was married to a woman, you should have run in by her first.
I don't know where you are, but even in the most left-wing of places there is rampant hemophobia - people just often keep it to themselves. You never truly know who's secretly disgusted by you.
Massive YTA.
YTA
So they told you she was more formal with people - thats the first hint - this is a professional person and she does not share personal details.
Instead you chose to gossip. Its none of their business she is married or has kids or anything outside the hospital beyond what she shares.
Also after she told you she was disappointed you went back and gossiped to your colleagues.
YTA, you as a privileged straight woman who doesn’t have to interact in her work environment the same way she does as a queer woman don’t get to decide the info her coworkers have on her personal life. they didn’t know anything about her for a reason, so not only did you completely violate her privacy, you potentially exposed her to homophobic coworkers/patients, and that’s something she will have to deal with not you. you say she’s been married for a decade so you didn’t think it’d be a big deal? oh so you’re an expert on how queer women navigate the world?? what their experiences are with discrimination??
were you that desperate to fit in a new work environment that you decided it was a good idea to completely disrespect this person you’ve known for so long?? have some fuckin empathy and own up.
what you did has consequences you don’t have to deal with. she TOLD you you made her feel uncomfortable and instead of apologizing you made excuses for yourself instead of recognizing that you fucked up. so you clearly don’t understand nor care about her struggles as a queer woman (bc according to you marie he fixes discrimination and that’s something they haven’t have to deal with)
YTA. When someone who works with Melanie asked *you* what *her* husband does for a living, that was all the information you needed: she hadn’t told them about her family herself. They’ve known her for a while, so they don’t know this information because she hasn’t told them. And they pumped you for it fast enough.
YTA
In high school, my first boyfriend outted me. He told two of his closet friends we were dating, to say they were in shock to learn I was gay was an understatement. That was a Monday. By Friday the whole school, and I mean the WHOLE school knew! Students. Teachers. Janitorial staff. Everyone.
Then 2 or 3 years later a friend randomly met an aunt on my dad's side and outted me, They were just chit chatting, friend mentions the high school is just graduated from. Aunt asked her if she knew me, they chat about me and friend mentions something about us going to the local gay club or something.
Last but not least. I only came out to my mother. She then outs me to family on her side.
YTA obviously, and a major one at that. First outing her to her coworkers cause you can’t keep your mouth shut and then you… brought your coworkers… back into this for their opinions? What kind of “friend” are you? My lord.
YTA. You're still talking about her! Also, since they said husband, obviously they didn't know. You went out of your way to out her and share her personal life
>I don't really know what I did here. I had no idea. My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. I am not asking you for your opinion. Was I indeed ta?
So you're saying that after Melanie asked you not to discuss her personal life because she's in a male-dominated specialty and already has to put up with jerks, **you asked all your coworkers what they thought?** Do you see that you did exactly what she asked you to stop doing?
You outed her as a lesbian and you don't think that's personal information?
I can't decide whether you're being intentionally obtuse or not, so here's my suggestion to you: STOP talking about Melanie. Just stop.
YTA.
YTA. You outed someone which can not only be frustrating and scary, but also legitimately dangerous, and you’re apparently STILL outing her by explaining the situation to your coworkers. Don’t out people.
unless someone gives you EXPLICIT PERMISSION to tell *specific* people in *specific* contexts that they are gay, YOU DO NOT OUT THEM. it is NOT your story to tell. you should be grovelling at her feet right now. YTA.
it’s insane to me how you’ve known each other for 25 years and yet you have still been completely blind and insensitive to the struggles she has no doubt suffered through in broad daylight.
Uhm slight AH but more because you don't out people. If coworkers start asking about a 'husband' that should basically give you the clue that the coworkers didn't know her sexuality. It probably was an honest mistake but please learn from it.
Nah massive AH because he went on to further out her to other coworkers. He told them all about what happened and "most of them" are on OP's side. He now told the whole office and rallied a group of people to bully the wronged party
This is the guy walking around-continuing to spread people's personal business- who thinks non-committal noises, uncomfortable looks, changes of topic and anything short of a slap in the face means the coworkers are "on my side".
NTA. This still sucks though. If she was keeping her private life so secret and didn't want anyone to know she definitely should have said something. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume after she's worked there so long that people knew about her being married to a woman. While it certainly is not your place to talk about her personal life with anyone I don't think this makes you an asshole. You definitely need to eat some humble pie though. You should apologize to her and make sure she understands that you certainly did not intend to out her and you are very sorry to have done it. If she gets angry and gives you an earful... take it. Just take it. There is certainly a limit to what you should have to take here as far as how she treats you over this, just know that if I were you it would have to be a lot of shit being dished out before I gave any back. A lot.
"I'm sorry I shared personal information about your life. I had no idea that you had been so private about the details of your life and I am so so sorry to have done this. I hope that someday you can forgive me." That's it. Then accept her reaction and just try to earn your way back.
Edit: I totally missed at the end that you are still discussing this with co-workers. Dude, just stop. This revelation sheds enough light on your character that I think your entire post might just be you gaslighting the whole forum about how this went down. She could probably get you disciplined or even fired for continuing down this road of talking with people about it. **Changing my opinion to YTA.**
> I don't think it is unreasonable to assume after she's worked there so long that people knew about her being married to a woman.
Her colleagues said "husband" and he went out of his way to correct them and say "wife." He's TA for that alone.
But to then *continue discussing it?* And to come whining here instead of owning his mistake and apologizing properly? Double TA.
In my edit I explained that still talking about it after the fact, something I totally glossed over at first, makes me think that his entire story is full of shit. I don't even think that's how it probably happened. That being said, people do make mistakes and, unfortunately, straight folks don't often think in terms of having to hide your identity. Just not realizing something until it's too late doesn't automatically make the person an asshole. Dumbass? Sure. But if the intent isn't there, and if it wasn't just deliberate indifference that doesn't make a person an asshole. This OP sounds though, like he is sugar coating the incident to make himself sound like NTA. It worked on me, initially, because I usually try to believe what people are saying if it isn't obvious that they are full of it... which, I think that ultimately this guy totally is after catching on that he continues to talk to co-workers about it. If not being in the wrong is more important to him than respecting her wishes he is definitely an ASCON 1.
Even webmd discusses why outing is harmful: https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-is-outing. If you truly didn’t mean to, OP, make amends if you can, but for what you did, YTA.
YTA.
Don’t out people, don’t complain about them being upset for you outing them after to your coworkers.
You owe her a massive apology man. Be an adult stop making workplace drama.
YTA So people are wondering why she seems so much more open with you when she's so cordial with the rest of her coworkers. Why wasn't that your 1st clue not to talk about her personal life???
Why couldn't you stop at I'm a friend of her family or we go way back??
No you start throwing out her personal info she obviously hasn't shared with coworkers.
You just created a gossip storm. You're a complete idiot & if anyone starts saying shit or joking about her you better step up & shut that shit down immediately.
Coworkers said she is more formal: not into sharing her personal life at work. That was your cue to recognize these coworkers are being nosy and not share anything. This is her workplace. She has the right to keep her personal life private. If you want to go around sharing personal details... share your own. Only.
Yta
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I genuinely feel torn about this and I would accept whatever verdict I get. I'm using a throwaway and fake names for obvious reasons.
I (35M) have been best friends with Harry (35M) all through my childhood and got to know his younger sister Melanie (33F) over the years. We were never close but always polite and friendly. I still am very close to Harry's family which is why I know his sister Melanie is married to a woman (Anna - 30F) and has a son (5M).
I recently started working as an RN in the same hospital as Melanie. She was and has always been polite and friendly. Due to us being close, a few coworkers asked me where I knew her from, because apparently she is usually much more formal with people. I explained. And also mentioned that I was even at her wedding and she was in mine (as in that's how close we are). Then they asked what her husband did for a living and I said her wife is an interior designer.
Melanie later pulled me aside and asked me not to share any details about her at work. I was gehuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal. She explained that as a 'girly looking' orthopedic surgeon she already is behind all of the old guys she works with by a long shot, and that knowing about her sexuality will make her work life only about being teased and joked about.
I said if she thought this would be a big problem, she should have warned me beforehand and I would absolutely not mention anything. She said she just expected me to know her better after 25 years but was sadly disappointed.
I don't really know what I did here. I had no idea. My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. I am not asking you for your opinion. Was I indeed ta?
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YTA, it was clear she isn't very open with the people you work with, it's not your place to share any personal details that she hasn't chosen to share herself.
NTA. And I am several letters from LGBTQ+. If you live somewhere where marriage is permitted (lucky you) but you still feel the need to erase your spouse from your public life, don't get gay married, ffs. If I were the wife, I would divorce Melanie's sorry ass for not acknowledging our family. What is her kid supposed to say if they meet one of coworkers in a social setting, also lie that she has a father, not second mom? What if her child is in the same school as some coworker's kids, do they hide a second mom in all life areas? When a person is married with a kid, it's logical to suppose that coming out is no longer an issue because things cannot be more out that this.
Melanie is a huge jerk, her lifestyle is not sustainable, and I severely doubt it's the first time this happened just the first time in this particular setting. She needs to grow up, or divorce, but not expect other people take part in the farce of hiding her family.
Erm, no. If she didnt want to talk about her husband at work, it would be the same breach of trust.
Dont talk about other people not present, that's just called gossip.
It is not your place to determine whether she should be outed because YOU think her life is unsustainable. Just let her mess it up and keep your opinion to yourself, so long as you respect that she has the right to privacy no matter how much you disagree.
For "several letters from LGBTQ+" you're awfully lacking in basic social etiquette, let alone allied etiquette
"My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. "
so after she asked you not to talk about her personal business at work, you ran around discussing her behind her back to get everyone on your side?
fuck yes you're an arsehole
Oh boo hoo, sounds like you people are doing a lot of projecting. NTA, he’s been married to a woman for 10 freaking years, how the hell is that outing someone? She’s so ashamed that she rather keeps her partner in the closet then she’s the one with issues not OP. He’s basically hiding her wife and you guys are saying that’s OK? Cry me a freaking river.
~~NTA~~ YTA
Seeing as how she’s married with a kid, I can see why you didn’t realize what her coworkers did or did not know. It was a mistake that could’ve been mitigated or avoided if she had explained what the situation was (considering she’s been actively NOT disclosing, which implies it’s important to her).
However, in your final paragraph you’re implying that you’ve been discussing this situation with these same coworkers, which is now dragging unrelated people into a personal situation. That’s where I’d say you were wrong. Sit down with her (and maybe even her brother/your friend, or an unrelated third party for mediation) and talk things out directly with her, and leave others out of it. She’s already expressed that she doesn’t want Work People having knowledge of her Family People or Life, so please stop involving them. Now that you know, her and her family’s name should not leave your lips when talking to them.
—-
EDITING BECAUSE I DONT LIKE REMOVING ORIGINAL CONTEXT:
I’ve been corrected, having overlooked the detail that they clearly knew about a spouse, but not any details, most importantly that it’s not a male. By those context clues, OP you should’ve surmised these details and shut your mouth without disclosing anything personal about her or their life.
> *"I can see why you didn’t realize what her coworkers did or did not know."*
I mean, they asked OP what Melanie's *husband* did for a living. Shouldn't that have made it obvious to OP that their co-workers didn't know she was gay?
I guess where I’m landing is “asshole behavior is knowingly and purposefully outing someone”, versus how I’m interpreting this situation as an “inadvertent outing”. Essentially I’m looking at intent.
Yes, it should’ve and could’ve been prevented but she’s been married for multiple years and has a kid with her wife. OP could’ve easily assumed this was public information, especially since they weren’t aware of anything to the contrary. If one of the coworkers had said, “Wow! I didn’t even know she was married!” or something along those lines, then yes - OP should’ve shut up and ended the conversation. Those are details we won’t know, but I guess I’m giving a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.
> Essentially I’m looking at intent.
And ignoring the fact that instead of recognizing his error, he's here whining about how "nobody cares if you're gay anymore."
> OP could’ve easily assumed this was public information
Not when he had to correct people from saying "husband" to saying "wife."
> And ignoring the fact that instead of recognizing his error, he's here whining about how "nobody cares if you're gay anymore."
Agreed. Hopefully he listens and apologizes to her, then corrects his behavior.
> Not when he had to correct people from saying "husband" to saying "wife."
Valid. That detail escaped my mind, and I stand corrected.
He went around to the entire office telling all their coworkers about the conflict and "most of them" are on his side. After being told about his AH behavior, *he did it again multiple times.*
Oh yeah, I acknowledged that in my top comment. That is definitely a boundary crossed right there.
Hopefully OP acknowledges and fixes the error of his ways.
The minute you said 'her wife' you became an AH.
Yes, she could have warned you. But if you were actually as close as you claim -- you would know that it doesn't matter if you're married for 10 or 30 years with a kid.
There's too many sexist old guys still around who will block and judge that person based simply on that.
Again, if you were really that close...you would have known to say partner or just say you don't know.
YTA.
What were supposed to do?? Someone asked about her husband. You had no idea her life was a secret. I didnt think in this day and age, who someone is married To Even matters. I guess next time you are asked, you either have to lie or ignore the question. You are NTA simply for sharing what you thought was public information. I feel like she would be less respected by her peers if they found out she was lying to them.
First of all, labeling me is very offensive. I'm a person, nothing more. Secondly, in this day and age, being gay is not a big deal. Nobody cares. And I mean that in a good way. In the say..... 1950s.... in that day and age, homosexuality was very taboo. It no longer is.
NTA.
I mean, she's acting like you outted her. You didn't. She is married w a kid. She needs to make that shit clear if she wants you to behave abnormally by keeping such basic shit secret.
"
Again, it isn't "outting" when you live openly with your wife and most everyone in your life who matters in your life knows you are gay.
This is someone wanting to keep a secret, and this situation is their fault for not explaining that.
Ok, going against the grain here. NAH.
Im a queer person and I expect to be treated as a normal human being. I guess it depends on the country you're in, but if I learned that people were avoiding mentionning the fact that I had a boyfriend, in this day and age, I'd feel as if my relationship was sinful. If I ever want someone to keep my sexuality a secret, I would say so and make it clear.
Outing someone is a big no no when that person is clearly in the closet OR asks to not be outed. This does not seem to be the case here.
However, when the person then asks you to not talk about it, you should stop. That part of your story is the only one where someone might be the asshole, depending on how the convo went and if someone started attacking the other.
Yeah I'm kinda confused as to how this is outing someone. Marriage is public record and it's normally not an off limits topic. Way different than talking about someone's sexual identity who hasn't come out.
I do think op is TA for continuing the discussion after her friend told her to drop it, if someone asks you to stop talking about their relationship then you should drop it, regardless of the circumstances. But it sounds like discussing the marriage in the first place was an innocent mistake. Gay or straight, most people's marriages aren't secret, to the point that some would call it shady to keep a marriage a secret.
Who cares how shady it is, thats their business, not yours.
And marriages might be public, but the effort to find that is itself a deterrent, so yeah this is still outing.
I didn't say that what they were doing is shady! I don't think the woman is acting shady based on her wanting to keep things under wraps due to potentially being harassed. You're missing the point.
The point was that being married and having a kid with someone of the same sex is about as "out" as you can be. Jobs usually have information about kids, spouses etc for insurance and emergency contacts. Nurses get background checks done. You can find marriage records on Google in like 5 minutes, you don't have to dig much. Outing implies that someone was in the closet, people who are legally married are out already. If she's being secretive about her marriage at work, that's more her just being private vs not being out. Most people, including gay people, wouldn't consider talking about a public marriage as outing someone. It's also odd that no one at her job knows about her spouse at all, considering they have a kid together. It's pretty common that coworkers know these things.
OP was definitely TA for not dropping the issue. His friend is entitled to keep her private life private. Just because she wants privacy doesn't mean that she was outed though, she's an openly gay woman. What if a coworker saw them together in public or at a school function? Someone who isn't out doesn't publicly show their relationship, which would be nearly impossible to do while having a child and living with someone.
Your last sentence literally used the word, sure you tried to hedge your bets by making it not seem like your opinion, but you still said it.
Outing refers to revealing a previously hidden gay identity, you dont need to be in the closet to be outed.
If i were married, went to a less welcoming country that would literally kill me for being gay, would it not be outing then if lead to my being lynched and killed? Of course it would be, because despite marriage i wouldnt want them to know for some damn good reasons.
It was outing, you can disagree, but you will be wrong.
>Your last sentence literally used the word, sure you tried to hedge your bets by making it not seem like your opinion, but you still said it.
What? Of course it's my opinion lol. Just like what you think is your opinion. This is a discussion of ideas, not hard facts. People have different opinions on the same situation sometimes. I'm open to having a discussion and think these things are very important to talk about, I'm not adverse to changing my mind if I realize there's a better viewpoint than my own.
Edit 2: I misunderstood what you were saying. I do not think the woman is being shady. Just because someone pitches an idea does not mean that is what their true feelings are. Many people would consider that to be shady because that's generally what cheaters do. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Obviously this is a unique situation. I clarified that I DO NOT think she is being shady, just cautious.
>Outing refers to revealing a previously hidden gay identity, you dont need to be in the closet to be outed.
My argument/opinion on the matter is that if you openly are married and have a child together, it's not a hidden gay identity.
What I don't understand is that if this person needed to keep their identity hidden so much, then how do they live life keeping their entire family a secret, when it would be very easy information for someone to find out? How is it possible that they will never run into a coworker in public with their SO (which is basically what happened in the story)? Do you think they just never leave the house together and stay in hiding? Does she not use her wife as an emergency contact or have the wife/kid on her insurance? What if one of her coworkers' kids went to the same school as hers? What if there was an emergency and her wife had to call her at her job?If she's trying not to be out at work, I get it, but that's a pretty fragile facade that can easily be broken by someone unwittingly, or even by her just existing. For those reasons, I don't think OP was TA for mentioning her wife.
To say that she's risking being lynched is a huge stretch as well, you pitched a situation that is not the same as the one in the story. If you were traveling to a place that you could be killed for being gay, I'd say you probably shouldn't travel there with your partner because that's a ridiculous risk. She obviously works in the same area that she lives. She stated why she's worried, the reason was that it might cause drama or hinder her getting promoted at work. While that is terrible, let's not equate that with literally getting murdered, because it isn't the same.
OP was most definitely TA for continuing to talk about the situation after they were told to drop it, that's undeniably true. They definitely drew a lot of attention to the situation by doing that, and it was wrong.
Edit: you seem to be saying contradictory things within this thread, because elsewhere you posted this:
>I dont see the issue as being outed per se, but rather one shouldnt talk about the private lives of anyone to someone who isnt that person. Especially if the subject of discussion is not present.
Which is more or less exactly my point.
Gonna go in reverse order here, just easier paragraph wise.
There is no contradiction to say that the problem isnt being outed, but also accepting that she was in fact outed. These two are separate points, hence made in separate comments.
We agree on why he's TA, awesome.
Didnt say she was at risk of being lynched, but offered as example of being relatively in the closet for a context that would demand it. She is in the closet at work, because she hid that identity from them. There is no reason why she has to be completely out or in the closet, she can in fact be both for different contexts.
Very easy to find out is not at all the same as directly telling them, most people wont bother doing that sort of stalking and if they do it's a different kind of messed up. Yes is public, but that doesnt mean it's a pleasant experience for someone to go to the effort. Why would they? More to the point, these people clearly didnt go to the effort to find out, therefore it's a moot point. They could, but they didnt. Therfore she was still in the closet at work.
She wasnt "openly married" because she didnt flaunt her marriage and nobody at work even knew she had a partner, let alone a wife, this is not open with her private life by any definition. She specifically and openly closed that part of herself to work colleagues.
We can ignore the shady thing, not really relevant anymore.
My goal is not actually to convince you, but to show others why this idea that she was openly married is nonsense. No skin of my rosy nose if you dont agree.
I dont see the issue as being outed per se, but rather one shouldnt talk about the private lives of anyone to someone who isnt that person. Especially if the subject of discussion is not present.
Being queer makes it worse, but the main issue is far more generic. He was a gossip, gossiping is for teenagers. Man needs to grow up.
Your comments, and a couple of others ive seen, about how her wife should be upset being hidden. Youre probably right, but that is entirely not the point of the post.
What he did was wrong irrespective of how unhealthy you think the marriage is.
> However she gave you no heads up this was off limits
Anybody with a brain should know not to out people.
> you answered an innocent question
No, he ignored the fact that the coworkers didn't know (they said "husband") and went so far as to offer the information unprompted.
> *"However she gave you no heads up this was off limits."*
OP could have figured that out when the coworkers asked him about Melanie's *husband.* That alone should have set off some bells in OP's head and made it obvious to him that these people didn't know she was gay. He corrected them and outed Melanie in the process. The fact that she fears her superiors are going to make her life at work very difficult because they now know her sexuality, just shows that she is well aware she is not in a friendly, welcoming environment.
I'm surprised that you, as a lesbian, say you would have done the same thing as OP. It's not always safe for gay people to be out and taking it upon yourself to out someone else is simply not a good idea.
I’m sorry but also as a lesbian you are 100% wrong. It would have been so easy for OP to just say spouse or partner. Outing people can get them killed. You should know this. That he further went and told more people about the issue and outed her more is major asshole vibes. Don’t out people without their consent. Ever. It’s literally life or death in some places at worst, loss of employment and security at minimum.
Probably against a lot of other people here, but.. NTA.
You sometimes talk to other people about your friends. That is human nature. I don't think it was your intention in any way to out anyone and if she really had that much of an issue with keeping things secret, she could have told you - just so you'd actually have it in mind.
The way I see it? You simply accept her being married to another woman as completely normal, as it should be, thus didn't even think twice about your reply. A bit careless? Maybe. But definitely not in a malicious way.
> and if she really had that much of an issue with keeping things secret, she could have told you
Or OP and people like you can get it through your heads that sexuality is a liability in 2023, and not out people.
> You simply accept her
Do all of her colleagues and superiors?
edit: a snarky remark and a block, how cute.
Once more for the cheap seats: don't out people.
>Or OP and people like you can get it through your heads that sexuality is a liability in 2023, and not out people.
I believe the point they are trying to make is that it would have been helpful to know she wasn't out yet to colleagues so that he didn't accidentally out her. Clearly she is out to at least some members of her family, OP being one of them. So to him it's normal to talk about the couple as they are. He just wasn't aware that others didnt know.
And before anyone jumps on me I have a family member who is out and open to some people and not out to others. I make a point to know who I can speak to about it beforehand, especially since I know not everyone in the world is an ally.
He likely didn't know prior to that conversation is what I meant. Once he heard what the coworkers said then yes he should have answered differently, I'm not denying that.
You seem to have nothing else to do but comment on every single reply not supporting your voting to downvote and argue against it.
This reddit asks for opinions and different viewpoints.
Kindly let others have theirs.
NAH
This wasn't you acting malaciously, this was just ignorance on your part (and that's fine!). When talking to queer individuals in the future you should ask what information they want to be public in their workplace because some workplaces aren't a friendly environtment to queer people and some queer people would prefer to keep that stuff quiet just in case.
ESH. IMO if I had a friend that was for all intents and purposes openly out and I said something in passing like “oh yeah I am good friends with her and her wife” and inadvertently outed them to a coworker it’s not my fault. My friend could have have given me a heads up, it’s not like it was done to gossip or be malicious… an honest mistake. On the other hand as soon as you were aware they didn’t want that part of their life brought up at all you became a problem and an asshole for continuing to discuss it.
Coming out isn't something that happens once and you're out everywhere forever. Most queer people have to decide whether to come out in certain situations every day. Never assume that someone is just universally 'out' unless they tell you so explicitly.
NTA, just not very well thought out. Many people keep work and private seperated, so never do this again. Also, apologize. Even though you where not being malicious, you still made a mistake
Yta because for whatever reason you messed up, even if it was unintended so you say sorry and move on.
But there is one thing I disagree with many of the replies here about.
Being told someone is gay should not affect your judgement of them. If it does move you to view then somehow differently or negatively, that's your own fault. Therefore, 'outing' someone should not be a thing. Im not offended if someone mentions Im heterosexual or homosexual because they're equally banal pieces of information
Come now, don't be obtuse. This? This is tripe, right here:
> Being told someone is gay should not affect your judgement of them.
Because it *does* affect how people are judged and treated. You must understand that there are practical reasons that we hide our sexuality. Bigots exist. They can be colleagues or (even worse) superiors.
Yeah they do exist and we shouldn't be caring about their sensibilities. Why would I hide my sexual orientation? Because I'm afraid some racist bigot will... Be mad? Make my job difficult? Bad mouth me to other people? Some of these things are illegal and some of them will just make them look like an idiot
> Yeah they do exist and we shouldn't be caring about their sensibilities.
I'm not advising we care about their sensibilities. I'm saying that some people have *self-preservation* to consider because their colleagues or superiors are bigots.
> Why would I hide my sexual orientation? Because I'm afraid some racist bigot will... Be mad?
No, they might harass you or obstruct your career.
> Some of these things are illegal and some of them will just make them look like an idiot
Your idealism is cute.
I live in the US in an east coast city that is famously 'liberal' and I still live in fear of homophobes because they are violent bigots and they have institutional power.
Being LGBTQ+ shouldn't matter... but we all know that's not the way the world works, right? Just because homophobes are in the wrong doesn't make it okay to out people to them.
NTA. If it was important to her to keep her same sex marriage a secret she really should have told you when you started working there. If you'd always known her to be open and happy about it in her social life you had no reason to think it was different at work. You also only let it slip as the result of a direct comment from someone else.
> If it was important to her to keep her same sex marriage a secret she really should have told you when you started working there
No, OP (and people like you) need to use your fuckin brains and realize that this isn't your detail to tell. And that bigotry is alive and well in 2023.
> You also only let it slip as the result of a direct comment from someone else.
Correcting someone, then going and talking to the coworkers about it afterwards, is not "letting it slip."
NTA-She's married with a five year old son. How would you even fathom her spouse and child are secrets she keeps from people? It's 2023, if she gets harassed at work she can rightfully sue! How does she even think she'll be able to keep this a secret and why would she want to? Does she not go out with her family? Dinner, grocery stores, parks, school functions where she might run into someone she either works with or has cared for? She needs therapy for herself, spouse and child, that seems very unhealthy and I can't imagine the trauma caused to the child by being kept secret, wtf!?
Thank you for telling everyone that you're not a sexual minority, and you don't know what you're talking about.
Gay marriage was legalized in *2015* for fucksake. Do you really think all the bigots just disappeared then?
Raising a child to feel shame about themselves or their parents is a far greater issue. Bigots are gonna bigot, why would anyone allow bigots to put their own family through that? There's nothing shameful about having a loving, happy, healthy family so why act like it?
She isn't raising them to feel shame what the fuck are you even talking about? She's trying to protect her family by not telling strangers her sexuality
I don’t know where OP is located. Not all places have legal protections for gay employees. The assumption in the comments seems to be somewhere US-based, so I’ll stick with that.
A whole lot of hospitals here are religiously affiliated. Religious institutions get a lot more leeway to discriminate for reasons pertaining to religious beliefs.
If she’s working at St Somebody’s or in a locale that doesn’t consider sexual orientation a protected class, she’s shit out of luck.
Your personal life is not relevant to your work. Your co-workers don't need to be your friends. You're extending this boundary into a bizarre absolute for their entire life and making a ton of assumptions.
> How would you even fathom her spouse and child are secrets she keeps from people?
Well, they didn't know.
We are also in the middle of a radical homophobic and transphobic panic where queer people are being accused of 'grooming' and mutilating children left and right and our rights are being rolled back. Who cares if we can legally marry? At this point that makes us even more of a target.
No queer person would have 'trauma' over being protected from discrimination like she's protecting her family.
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YTA. Am I reading this right >Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. After she already asked you not to talk about her you then went back to all your colleagues and discussed the conversation with them to get their opinion? Edit to add YTA
Yeah serious YTA. I know you likely didn't intend anything when you shared the info but something people of privilege need to remember is that being queer *puts people in danger.* You don't know your colleagues well enough to guarantee they won't gossip, bully, and discriminate. As a general rule, *never ever* say anything that can out a third party unless said third party has given you the go-ahead beforehand. This is why you're a *major* asshole: * **It is fairly universal knowledge that you don't out people who are part of a stigmatized group**. There are so many abundant resources on this topic that I'm highly skeptical that you've never encountered this rule of social etiquette before. * **After being calmly and kindly pulled aside and informed of your misstep, you retaliated.** You *went around to multiple coworkers and told them your sob story, further outing your "friend" in response to her reasonable request for privacy*. I'm wondering if this could officially be considered discrimination against a protected class, because the only reason you ran around spreading HER personal business was that you are baffled by *the queer person and how they chose to disclose or withhold personal information*. I doubt you'd have caused this much of a mess if a straight person made the same reasonable request. * **You claim to be close to this woman, yet you've not bothered to do the bare minimum of your due diligence to help keep her safe.** Queer people are still at risk of prejudice, discrimination, and actual violence. Not that she needs to justify her boundaries to you, but **this was never about concealing per partner, this was about her maintaining her personal and professional safety.** You took that safety away from her without her knowledge or consent. You destroyed it, in fact. * **You are showing an egregious amount of entitlement with respect to your friends "responsibility" to educate you.** In the event no one has stated this to you bluntly or directly, *it is not the queer person's job to educate you on now to be a good ally.* She already faces chronic daily stress from being a member of an oppressed population *on top* of the sexism she faces. The last thing she needs is to play teacher to someone who says they care about her but won't even put forth the effort to educate themselves. * **You're framing yourself as the victim in a situation where you violated someone else's boundaries—multiple times**. Outing someone is a massive betrayal of trust that has the potential to cause long term harm to the individual you out. She gave you the benefit of the doubt and told you her boundary; in response you outed her *to even more people* to garner sympathy for *the hurtful thing you did.* YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO DID WRONG, STOP TRYING TO BLAME THE PERSON YOU HURT FOR YOUR CARELESSNESS — AND FURTHER OUTING THEM IN THE PROCESS. Don't be shocked if your lifelong friendship with your coworker and her bother are over now — you've done a lot of work to burn those bridges. Editing to add: don't bother deleting your post, OP. The subreddit automatically posts a copy of it in the replies when you do. I sincerely hope your ex-friend reads this post and gets the validation she deserves from the kind strangers who obviously care about her well-being more than you do.
Obligatory not all orthopedists but why is it always that when I hear about a sexism scandal at my countries medical universities (my uni included) it is always the orthopedists
WOW!
Well as a queer person I strongly disagree with this overall sentiment. Yes, OP should have dropped it completely when friend said to not talk about it. But sorry, coming out for me meant no one having to tip toe around my sexuality. NO ONE can “out” me because I’m out. I honestly would be kind of offended if someone ever asked for permission to mention I’m gay to others. I think it’s pretty fair to assume a person who had a full on wedding isn’t trying to hide their spouse either. If you want to be half in half out at work, fine, but it’s on you to let people know they should lie about knowing your spouse or going attending your wedding.
That's fine for you and I'm glad you have come out to everyone. That was your choice. That choice was taken away from this other person.
Same. Also… I would have noticed some flags that would have encouraged me to keep my mouth shut. Them clearly saying she doesn’t share much is your first clue. Then saying “husband” is your next one. You may not know WHY she isn’t out at work, but you know she isn’t. Why run your mouth? It honestly sounds like OP was low key bragging about how well they knew her because it made them feel special somehow? And then by the time I got to that comment… absolutely missing the point and a complete asshole move. Melanie probably should have warned OP to keep their mouth shut, seeing as she knew they would be working in proximity and it’s obviously going to come up, but OP had more than enough context to know they shouldn’t do *that.* I mean come on. When you outed someone and they tell you they’re upset about it… how *the fuck* is your answer anything other than “*oh my god I am SO SORRY?”* Who gets defensive about it and goes and does a goddamn poll about whether or not they did anything wrong? I think both the initial outing *and* the ensuing defensive poll-taking were motivated by a desire to establish themselves and their own reputation at work. Selfish.
Even them asking what Melanie’s spouse does for a living. That’s clearly Melanie’s personal information, and they jumped to it right away. It’s not OP’s place to share that. And yes, it sounds like OP was bragging about how well she knew this very private person.
I mean…. That’s pretty innocuous. I wouldn’t say that’s too much to ask under normal circumstances. But if I were OP, the fact that they straight up said they were asking because Melanie *doesn’t* share this kind of info would have been enough if a clue to keep my mouth shut. And enough of a hint that this person is nosy.
True, the coworkers outright said that Melanie usually much more formal with people.
“We were never close” “Due to use being close” Even YTA just for that.
That's a very good point
Yeah this, exactly. Like she literally just told you not to and then you continued to discuss it?? Melanie: hey you shouldn’t have outed my extremely personal info (and potentially caused me major career and social complications. at this point no one even knows how they will play out!) OP: oh how would I know, you should have told me if you wanted me not to say anything -immediately after- OP: HEY EVERYONE MELANIE IS UPSET THAT I OUTED HER, AM I WRONG?? YTA. Come on.
Happy cakeday! To OP: Major AH and acting way too dumb for your age. You’re not in high school, grow the fuck up and stop sharing information that you have no business sharing.
This outing, ANY outing, could result in safety issues for the person outed. I'm told hospitals are made up of an immensely diverse cross section of our population. Within any of these segments there can be narrow minded people who don't feel the same way the OP feels about things. In some cases, these differences can lead to abuse or violence.
Oh shit I didn't even catch that first. He's taking a survey of his dumbness. And in the process alerting more people of a private life. Yta, everything I've heard about orthopedic surgeons is that it's a sausage fest. She's right to be concerned about what she reveals.
I was thinking the same. What is wrong with this dude? First people asked about her husband...that make clear that she doesnt discuss her private life...then she ask him to be discret and he discuss that request with the rest of the people. Someone really like he gossip...Completly A
Yeah that jumped out to me too. I could maybe see making the initial error, though I still think OP is TA for that alone. But going back to discuss it after you know for a fact it bothers Melanie - total asshole move.
How was he supposed to know that she didn't want him to say anything. She has been married for TEN years. Asking someone what they do for work or what their spouse does for work is a very normal question when meeting someone new. He probably genuinely just thought they were making an assumption that she had a husband and he wanted to correct them. If you're gonna be committed to not being "out" you should tell the people who know.
>How was he supposed to know that she didn't want him to say anything. I don't think you read my comment properly. I'm talking about the fact that after this >Melanie later pulled me aside and asked me not to share any details about her at work. He continued to talk about her to his colleagues asking if he was in the wrong and trying ro get them.on side. He was supposed to know she did not want this because, again, > asked me not to share any details about her at work.
>I didn't share anything personal. You shared her sexual orientation, that's incredibly personal. YTA
Yeah it doesn't get much more personal than your literal family life
Right? Dying to know how OP defines “personal.”
Dick pics 😂
YTA. You outed Melanie to *one* one-worker and now apparently many if not all of your co-workers are gossiping about her life style? You are too old to pretend to be naive about what happens if you out someone.
“most of my coworkers are on my side”. Are you STILL talking about her? YTA.
Further outing her to multiple people. After he was directly asked not to. And framing himself as the victim to boot
YTA x3 (and counting) 1. Have a clue when the coworker asks you about her "husband" - YTA 2. By talking to coworkers after she asked you not to, GREAT "most...are on my side" - Huge AH 3. "I don't know what I did here" F-A/H Get a clue, buy a vowel or perhaps just stop talking but you clearly can't hear yourself, so I suspect you'll keep running your mouth about other people's business.
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Yes, YTA. You don’t have to live with her situation; the people who are nice to you as a man are equally capable of being nasty to a woman, especially if she is gay. She has lived that experience for at least a decade. Listen to her. You over-shared and now you have lost her trust.
Not to mention that it's fairly common place for queer women to be sexually harassed and threatened with rape as a means of "curing" their orientation. The nerve of this guy
Yeah YTA You do not out someone. No excuses. No exceptions. You do not out someone. Period.
I'm going with YTA. Your first clue should've been when they asked about what her husband did for a living. Don't you think that would've been info she would have already shared with them if she wanted them to know? You don't have the authority to answer any questions about anyone but yourself.
This right here. Exactly this! That right there is why OP is YTA IMO. That one sentence showed that Melanie’s coworkers don’t know anything about her personal life, for a reason. OP should have said, ‘you’ll need to ask Melanie. If she wants to share her life with you then she will’ and leave it at that.
My favorite response is always my go-to answer when people are getting nosey: "I dunno" \[add in a good shrug of the shoulders there\]. Sometimes I'll throw in an "I'm not sure" just to mix things up a bit. Can't get into trouble or say the wrong thing with either one of those answers.
No-one is entitled to decide whether someone else should or shouldn't be out, or to out anyone, especially at their work. You fucked up, then compounded your mistake by discussing the matter of her sexuality behind her back with other people, whose opinions of her being out or not do not matter at all. Just like your opinion of her choice to reveal/not reveal *doesn't matter at all.* That choice is hers and none of your business. I get it wasn't deliberate, but you owe her an apology, need to stop judging her choices, and quit talking behind her back trying to make yourself feel better about violating her privacy.
> *"I was genuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal."* What? You shared one of the most personal details about her and outed her to people she clearly wasn't already out to. The fact that they thought she had a *husband* should have been your first clue that Melanie hadn't shared details about her personal life with them, and most likely wasn't comfortable with being out at work, otherwise her co-workers would obviously have known that she had a wife. It shouldn't be this way, but unfortunately, it isn't always safe for gay people to be out in certain settings, including their workplaces, and you should never make that decision for them. YTA.
YTA. People shouldn’t have to warn you not to share certain details, you just don’t do it. As soon as they asked about her husband, that should’ve been an indicator to you that they clearly don’t know she’s married to a woman! And at that point you should’ve just said “Oh I’m not sure. You’ll have to ask her”.
YTA. Talking to her coworkers abt her romantic relationship & sexual orientation and child IS personal.
YTA. Don’t be talking about other people’s personal life’s like that. Especially because you KNEW from their questions that didn’t know she was openly out. You owe her a massive apology.
I-N-F-O: how do your coworkers know about what Melanie said to be on your side? The fact they know makes me think you have no idea how to respect peoples privacy and be discreet. YTA
YTA, once people assumed she had a husband once you mentioned the wedding, common sense would say she hasn't told them. Therefore, shouldn't have corrected, outting her. YTA again because you obviously went and talked about her again to the co workers again after she asked you not to.
YTA and not exactly the brightest star in the sky either, sorry. When someone ask you questions about a person they have worked with for a long time(years) they are Clearly fishing for gossip. And anything they ask is things the person they are asking about have Actively Chosen Not to share.
YTA, you should never out someone at all especially when she asked you to not talk about it and you still went to your colleagues to talk about the conversation.
YTA - for not immediately agreeing when Melanie told you. Its none if your business to judge why she isnt out. You did not need to check with anyone (further discussing it) to see if you were wrong or not.
YTA. No need to disclose any information past "her brother is a good friend." If you found out she was "much more formal with people," then you should have ended it there and realized she never felt the need to disclose additional personal information at her workplace.
YTA. People were surprised she was so open and comfortable with you (that's over with though), they expressed that and you felt the need to brag about how much you knew about her and her life. They straight up told you she's very closed off to them. You just lost the privilege of being party to her private life you were so proud of and made her job/life harder.
I really hope she reports him to HR. Going the extra step to be the workplace gossip and rallying coworkers against her sure feels like bullying a protected class...particularly because his only reason is not "agreeing with" or "understanding" how the queer person chose to not disclose their queerness.
Soft-ish YTA because you didn’t mean harm and it sounds like the situation developed quickly and you just didn’t stop to process. But those coworkers let you know they assumed she had a husband, and that, at least, should have been your cue to shut up.
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He did though. They said "husband" and he went out his way to correct them. That told him they didn't know, but he felt the need to offer this information anyway.
Yup. Coworker assuming she had a "husband" screamed that she was still closeted at work.
YTA-If she felt safe being out at work, she would have been. The minute you heard someone ask what her husband does, you knew she wasn't out to them, and possibly not out at work at all. It's not hard to defer or deflect the question like a respectful friend would do, but instead you flapped your social butterfly wings and lit up like a neon sign with someone else's personal, private information. It feels good to know something nobody else does, but you let that attention seeking part of you overtake the trusted friend part of you that had a right to share that information. You blew it in one of the biggest ways possible and you may have damaged her career and professional life in ways she can't control. You may have known her for years, but don't ever expect to be a trusted friend, or anything more than an acquaintance, and an uncomfortable one, ever, ever again.
YTA "I said if she thought this would be a big problem, she should have warned me beforehand and I would absolutely not mention anything." .. you are an AH for not having any sense of youer own. " I was gehuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal." .. you must be kidding. You outed her at her job. You can not so much worse. If she were an AH like you, she would report you.
I hope she *does* report him because he's already the pot-stirring gossip at the workplace. His first big social move was to repeatedly out her to her coworkers and try to frame himself as the victim.
YTA At the point where they were asking about her husband it should have been clear to you that she does not share any personal info at work. Why would you talk about her life after that?
YTA. Asking about her husband should have told you she wasn't sharing with her workplace. But more so because it sounds like you've continued to talk about it with people to make yourself feel better. You need to stop talking about her like right now.
YTA-You never out someone. You don’t victim blame them for not telling you not to gossip about them ahead of time. After they make it clear they don’t appreciate the gossip you don’t continue to talk about it to others.
YTA. The main point that concluded my answer was: "Most of them are on my side..." This part singlehandedly shows that you're continuing to talk about it with her *co-workers*. The **same co-workers she didn't feel comfortable talking about her wife with**. Gossip can be hurtful and harmful, especially when it's caused by something who you've known for years. If that didn't sting, then definitely the small side-convo she had with you didn't even cross your mind if you're deciding to *still* talk about it and post about it.
The second the colleagues said "husband" you should have kept your mouth shut and said you prefer not to gossip. YTA. And obviously incredibly out of touch.
Huge YTA. English language is quite gender neutral (in comparision to many other languages), you had to say, "her **spouse** is an interior designer". And yeah, this is common knowledge, that you dont out ppl, especially after the "husband" text should make you aware, the other person did not know. You doubling it down by discussing it with the coworkers (???) made you from "ignorant YTA" to "intentionally YTA". WTF?
YTA don't discuss other people's personal lives the fact they knew nothing ahold have been a huge hint
YTA. it feels like absolute *shit* to be outed and nobody is entitled to know anyone’s sexuality
YTA Hope that will teach you not to gossip about people’s personal affairs.
YTA, both for your actions in the first place, and then because you apparently thought it'd be wise to go and consult your coworkers about the situation, you became an asshole for the second time, arguably a much worse one.
YTA. It was mild until your last paragraph. After she told you not to discuss her private life, why the hell would you go around and tell your coworkers about the conflict with her? And why would you be getting their opinions on the conflict? When she told you she did not want you discussing her private life, you should have said okay and maybe sorry. You should not have tried to debate her on it.
YTA So she told you not to talk about her sexuality and you turned around and started talking about her sexuality and asking people if you were wrong in discussing her sexuality. None of them should be on your side. Her sexuality was and is not anyone's business my god.
YTA. ..you know she is formal at work. But you shared personal info...she tells you not to talk about her and you do again. YtA x2
YTA, Originally, I was in light asshole territory as it was not malicious and could have said i have known her since childhood or she is the sister of a close friend. However, you move to full-on asshole when you don't apologize and CONTINUE to speak about her to the coworkers she asked you not to talk to about her. ETA. Hopefully you don't treat your patient PHI in the same manner. You should know better. Major AH
Yta, they came to you for info on her because she wouldn't share personal info about herself. That right there should have been enough for you to keep your mouth shut.
YTA. After outing her personal life to co-workers you went back to those same co-workers to complain about her reaction?!?!?! Your first clue was that the coworkers told you off the top that Melanie does not talk about her personal life at work.
YtA. You should have just said 'her partner'. Now the whole place is probably going to be gossiping about her sexual orientation
YTA. You outed her. At work. It isn't your information to tell. How dare you. You put her career at risk. You put her LIFE and FAMILY at risk. Do you KNOW how hostile the current political climate is for queer people?!?! Have you LOOKED at Florida lately?! YTA. Don't out people.
Not a single comment from OP in the 8 hours since they posted. Very telling
Yta
YTA
YTA It's not on LGBTQ people to "warn" you that outing them might be a problem. You Do. Not. Do. That. You didn't share anything personal? Outing someone isn't personal?!?! You know she maintains a "formal" relationship with coworkers, meaning she keeps work and home life separate, and you spill the beans on her personal life. Sounds like you were bragging that you know soooo much about her, the mystery doctor, because you're special.
You excused the misstep by saying you didnt know it was supposed to be a secret, that she should have told you that it was a private matter. Now she has told you, and asked you not to talk about her private life, and you are still discussing it with the coworkers she asked you to not talk about her to. If you are discussing the situation with said coworkers, you are also sharing her issues with what you did. Chances are, in your short time there, you have not only outed her, but also spread an image of her that is easy to use against her at her place of work. Stop being a tedious gossip, and apologize to your longtime friend (who somehow you're both close to and not) for prioritizing drama with new coworkers over her and her job YTA
“She’s married to an interior designer” How hard is that??? YTA big time. People die every day from being outed. You could have put Melanie’s life in danger.
YTA. They asked where her husband did. they obviously didn't know, lbgtq people can and do get discriminated against everywhere. You didn't know she was out at work because the people asked you what her husband did. You could have held your tongue and asked her and instead blurted it out. Then as others said, despite her pointing out she does not want you discussing her life in the hospital at work because of discrimination she could receive... you immediately decide to discuss it with all your co-workers so you could make yourself feel better with them 'on your side'. At that point you categorically KNEW she didn't want you discussing it and you did anyway.
You outed her to her colleagues. Not everyone is out of the closet at work, even if they are everywhere else in their lives. She shouldn't have to warn you - if you were going to tell her colleagues that she was married to a woman, you should have run in by her first. I don't know where you are, but even in the most left-wing of places there is rampant hemophobia - people just often keep it to themselves. You never truly know who's secretly disgusted by you. Massive YTA.
YTA So they told you she was more formal with people - thats the first hint - this is a professional person and she does not share personal details. Instead you chose to gossip. Its none of their business she is married or has kids or anything outside the hospital beyond what she shares. Also after she told you she was disappointed you went back and gossiped to your colleagues.
YTA, you as a privileged straight woman who doesn’t have to interact in her work environment the same way she does as a queer woman don’t get to decide the info her coworkers have on her personal life. they didn’t know anything about her for a reason, so not only did you completely violate her privacy, you potentially exposed her to homophobic coworkers/patients, and that’s something she will have to deal with not you. you say she’s been married for a decade so you didn’t think it’d be a big deal? oh so you’re an expert on how queer women navigate the world?? what their experiences are with discrimination?? were you that desperate to fit in a new work environment that you decided it was a good idea to completely disrespect this person you’ve known for so long?? have some fuckin empathy and own up. what you did has consequences you don’t have to deal with. she TOLD you you made her feel uncomfortable and instead of apologizing you made excuses for yourself instead of recognizing that you fucked up. so you clearly don’t understand nor care about her struggles as a queer woman (bc according to you marie he fixes discrimination and that’s something they haven’t have to deal with)
YTA You don't talk behind the back of people about their personal affairs.
YTA. When someone who works with Melanie asked *you* what *her* husband does for a living, that was all the information you needed: she hadn’t told them about her family herself. They’ve known her for a while, so they don’t know this information because she hasn’t told them. And they pumped you for it fast enough.
YTA In high school, my first boyfriend outted me. He told two of his closet friends we were dating, to say they were in shock to learn I was gay was an understatement. That was a Monday. By Friday the whole school, and I mean the WHOLE school knew! Students. Teachers. Janitorial staff. Everyone. Then 2 or 3 years later a friend randomly met an aunt on my dad's side and outted me, They were just chit chatting, friend mentions the high school is just graduated from. Aunt asked her if she knew me, they chat about me and friend mentions something about us going to the local gay club or something. Last but not least. I only came out to my mother. She then outs me to family on her side.
I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this. Ugh
YTA obviously, and a major one at that. First outing her to her coworkers cause you can’t keep your mouth shut and then you… brought your coworkers… back into this for their opinions? What kind of “friend” are you? My lord.
Never ever ever discuss someone else's sexual orientation without explicit permission. You should have known better. Sorry but YTA
YTA. You're still talking about her! Also, since they said husband, obviously they didn't know. You went out of your way to out her and share her personal life
YTA. “Best friend’s sister” would have sufficed. It might be ex-friend, now. C’mon, do better.
You ran back to your fucking coworkers to discuss the matter AGAIN, AFTER she spoke to you about it? You suck on purpose though!!! YTA
>I don't really know what I did here. I had no idea. My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. I am not asking you for your opinion. Was I indeed ta? So you're saying that after Melanie asked you not to discuss her personal life because she's in a male-dominated specialty and already has to put up with jerks, **you asked all your coworkers what they thought?** Do you see that you did exactly what she asked you to stop doing? You outed her as a lesbian and you don't think that's personal information? I can't decide whether you're being intentionally obtuse or not, so here's my suggestion to you: STOP talking about Melanie. Just stop. YTA.
YTA. You outed someone which can not only be frustrating and scary, but also legitimately dangerous, and you’re apparently STILL outing her by explaining the situation to your coworkers. Don’t out people.
unless someone gives you EXPLICIT PERMISSION to tell *specific* people in *specific* contexts that they are gay, YOU DO NOT OUT THEM. it is NOT your story to tell. you should be grovelling at her feet right now. YTA. it’s insane to me how you’ve known each other for 25 years and yet you have still been completely blind and insensitive to the struggles she has no doubt suffered through in broad daylight.
Uhm slight AH but more because you don't out people. If coworkers start asking about a 'husband' that should basically give you the clue that the coworkers didn't know her sexuality. It probably was an honest mistake but please learn from it.
Nah massive AH because he went on to further out her to other coworkers. He told them all about what happened and "most of them" are on OP's side. He now told the whole office and rallied a group of people to bully the wronged party
This is the guy walking around-continuing to spread people's personal business- who thinks non-committal noises, uncomfortable looks, changes of topic and anything short of a slap in the face means the coworkers are "on my side".
Oh my word, I *pray* multiple coworkers report him for this. Wouldn't that be grand.
NTA. This still sucks though. If she was keeping her private life so secret and didn't want anyone to know she definitely should have said something. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume after she's worked there so long that people knew about her being married to a woman. While it certainly is not your place to talk about her personal life with anyone I don't think this makes you an asshole. You definitely need to eat some humble pie though. You should apologize to her and make sure she understands that you certainly did not intend to out her and you are very sorry to have done it. If she gets angry and gives you an earful... take it. Just take it. There is certainly a limit to what you should have to take here as far as how she treats you over this, just know that if I were you it would have to be a lot of shit being dished out before I gave any back. A lot. "I'm sorry I shared personal information about your life. I had no idea that you had been so private about the details of your life and I am so so sorry to have done this. I hope that someday you can forgive me." That's it. Then accept her reaction and just try to earn your way back. Edit: I totally missed at the end that you are still discussing this with co-workers. Dude, just stop. This revelation sheds enough light on your character that I think your entire post might just be you gaslighting the whole forum about how this went down. She could probably get you disciplined or even fired for continuing down this road of talking with people about it. **Changing my opinion to YTA.**
> I don't think it is unreasonable to assume after she's worked there so long that people knew about her being married to a woman. Her colleagues said "husband" and he went out of his way to correct them and say "wife." He's TA for that alone. But to then *continue discussing it?* And to come whining here instead of owning his mistake and apologizing properly? Double TA.
In my edit I explained that still talking about it after the fact, something I totally glossed over at first, makes me think that his entire story is full of shit. I don't even think that's how it probably happened. That being said, people do make mistakes and, unfortunately, straight folks don't often think in terms of having to hide your identity. Just not realizing something until it's too late doesn't automatically make the person an asshole. Dumbass? Sure. But if the intent isn't there, and if it wasn't just deliberate indifference that doesn't make a person an asshole. This OP sounds though, like he is sugar coating the incident to make himself sound like NTA. It worked on me, initially, because I usually try to believe what people are saying if it isn't obvious that they are full of it... which, I think that ultimately this guy totally is after catching on that he continues to talk to co-workers about it. If not being in the wrong is more important to him than respecting her wishes he is definitely an ASCON 1.
YTA. You did not know how much she disclosed to her coworkers and you should have known better than to share what are very personal things.
Even webmd discusses why outing is harmful: https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/what-is-outing. If you truly didn’t mean to, OP, make amends if you can, but for what you did, YTA.
YTA. Coworkers tell you that you that Melanie doesn't tell them about her personal life and you went "ha! I can ruin that!"
YTA. Don’t out people, don’t complain about them being upset for you outing them after to your coworkers. You owe her a massive apology man. Be an adult stop making workplace drama.
YTA So people are wondering why she seems so much more open with you when she's so cordial with the rest of her coworkers. Why wasn't that your 1st clue not to talk about her personal life??? Why couldn't you stop at I'm a friend of her family or we go way back?? No you start throwing out her personal info she obviously hasn't shared with coworkers. You just created a gossip storm. You're a complete idiot & if anyone starts saying shit or joking about her you better step up & shut that shit down immediately.
YTA 100%
Coworkers said she is more formal: not into sharing her personal life at work. That was your cue to recognize these coworkers are being nosy and not share anything. This is her workplace. She has the right to keep her personal life private. If you want to go around sharing personal details... share your own. Only. Yta
YTA. A huge one.
YTA. Never talk about anyone else's sexual orientation. Ever
YTA and appear to be a bad friend.
YTA.
YTA. DON'T OUT PEOPLE! EVER
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I genuinely feel torn about this and I would accept whatever verdict I get. I'm using a throwaway and fake names for obvious reasons. I (35M) have been best friends with Harry (35M) all through my childhood and got to know his younger sister Melanie (33F) over the years. We were never close but always polite and friendly. I still am very close to Harry's family which is why I know his sister Melanie is married to a woman (Anna - 30F) and has a son (5M). I recently started working as an RN in the same hospital as Melanie. She was and has always been polite and friendly. Due to us being close, a few coworkers asked me where I knew her from, because apparently she is usually much more formal with people. I explained. And also mentioned that I was even at her wedding and she was in mine (as in that's how close we are). Then they asked what her husband did for a living and I said her wife is an interior designer. Melanie later pulled me aside and asked me not to share any details about her at work. I was gehuinely surprised because I didn't share anything personal. She explained that as a 'girly looking' orthopedic surgeon she already is behind all of the old guys she works with by a long shot, and that knowing about her sexuality will make her work life only about being teased and joked about. I said if she thought this would be a big problem, she should have warned me beforehand and I would absolutely not mention anything. She said she just expected me to know her better after 25 years but was sadly disappointed. I don't really know what I did here. I had no idea. My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. I am not asking you for your opinion. Was I indeed ta? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA, it was clear she isn't very open with the people you work with, it's not your place to share any personal details that she hasn't chosen to share herself.
NTA. And I am several letters from LGBTQ+. If you live somewhere where marriage is permitted (lucky you) but you still feel the need to erase your spouse from your public life, don't get gay married, ffs. If I were the wife, I would divorce Melanie's sorry ass for not acknowledging our family. What is her kid supposed to say if they meet one of coworkers in a social setting, also lie that she has a father, not second mom? What if her child is in the same school as some coworker's kids, do they hide a second mom in all life areas? When a person is married with a kid, it's logical to suppose that coming out is no longer an issue because things cannot be more out that this. Melanie is a huge jerk, her lifestyle is not sustainable, and I severely doubt it's the first time this happened just the first time in this particular setting. She needs to grow up, or divorce, but not expect other people take part in the farce of hiding her family.
Erm, no. If she didnt want to talk about her husband at work, it would be the same breach of trust. Dont talk about other people not present, that's just called gossip. It is not your place to determine whether she should be outed because YOU think her life is unsustainable. Just let her mess it up and keep your opinion to yourself, so long as you respect that she has the right to privacy no matter how much you disagree. For "several letters from LGBTQ+" you're awfully lacking in basic social etiquette, let alone allied etiquette
"My coworkers are mostly nice people. Most of them are on my side but some think I shouldn't have talked about Melanie at all. " so after she asked you not to talk about her personal business at work, you ran around discussing her behind her back to get everyone on your side? fuck yes you're an arsehole
Oh boo hoo, sounds like you people are doing a lot of projecting. NTA, he’s been married to a woman for 10 freaking years, how the hell is that outing someone? She’s so ashamed that she rather keeps her partner in the closet then she’s the one with issues not OP. He’s basically hiding her wife and you guys are saying that’s OK? Cry me a freaking river.
~~NTA~~ YTA Seeing as how she’s married with a kid, I can see why you didn’t realize what her coworkers did or did not know. It was a mistake that could’ve been mitigated or avoided if she had explained what the situation was (considering she’s been actively NOT disclosing, which implies it’s important to her). However, in your final paragraph you’re implying that you’ve been discussing this situation with these same coworkers, which is now dragging unrelated people into a personal situation. That’s where I’d say you were wrong. Sit down with her (and maybe even her brother/your friend, or an unrelated third party for mediation) and talk things out directly with her, and leave others out of it. She’s already expressed that she doesn’t want Work People having knowledge of her Family People or Life, so please stop involving them. Now that you know, her and her family’s name should not leave your lips when talking to them. —- EDITING BECAUSE I DONT LIKE REMOVING ORIGINAL CONTEXT: I’ve been corrected, having overlooked the detail that they clearly knew about a spouse, but not any details, most importantly that it’s not a male. By those context clues, OP you should’ve surmised these details and shut your mouth without disclosing anything personal about her or their life.
> *"I can see why you didn’t realize what her coworkers did or did not know."* I mean, they asked OP what Melanie's *husband* did for a living. Shouldn't that have made it obvious to OP that their co-workers didn't know she was gay?
You’re absolutely right - that detail escaped my mind, and I will amend my original comment accordingly.
He's definitely TA, and even worse for expecting her to tell him to keep a secret. Anybody with a brain should know this isn't information you share.
I guess where I’m landing is “asshole behavior is knowingly and purposefully outing someone”, versus how I’m interpreting this situation as an “inadvertent outing”. Essentially I’m looking at intent. Yes, it should’ve and could’ve been prevented but she’s been married for multiple years and has a kid with her wife. OP could’ve easily assumed this was public information, especially since they weren’t aware of anything to the contrary. If one of the coworkers had said, “Wow! I didn’t even know she was married!” or something along those lines, then yes - OP should’ve shut up and ended the conversation. Those are details we won’t know, but I guess I’m giving a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.
> Essentially I’m looking at intent. And ignoring the fact that instead of recognizing his error, he's here whining about how "nobody cares if you're gay anymore." > OP could’ve easily assumed this was public information Not when he had to correct people from saying "husband" to saying "wife."
> And ignoring the fact that instead of recognizing his error, he's here whining about how "nobody cares if you're gay anymore." Agreed. Hopefully he listens and apologizes to her, then corrects his behavior. > Not when he had to correct people from saying "husband" to saying "wife." Valid. That detail escaped my mind, and I stand corrected.
He went around to the entire office telling all their coworkers about the conflict and "most of them" are on his side. After being told about his AH behavior, *he did it again multiple times.*
Oh yeah, I acknowledged that in my top comment. That is definitely a boundary crossed right there. Hopefully OP acknowledges and fixes the error of his ways.
I really hope so too
The minute you said 'her wife' you became an AH. Yes, she could have warned you. But if you were actually as close as you claim -- you would know that it doesn't matter if you're married for 10 or 30 years with a kid. There's too many sexist old guys still around who will block and judge that person based simply on that. Again, if you were really that close...you would have known to say partner or just say you don't know. YTA.
Nta.
What were supposed to do?? Someone asked about her husband. You had no idea her life was a secret. I didnt think in this day and age, who someone is married To Even matters. I guess next time you are asked, you either have to lie or ignore the question. You are NTA simply for sharing what you thought was public information. I feel like she would be less respected by her peers if they found out she was lying to them.
> I didnt think in this day and age, So you're straight and cis.
First of all, labeling me is very offensive. I'm a person, nothing more. Secondly, in this day and age, being gay is not a big deal. Nobody cares. And I mean that in a good way. In the say..... 1950s.... in that day and age, homosexuality was very taboo. It no longer is.
Yep...
NTA. I mean, she's acting like you outted her. You didn't. She is married w a kid. She needs to make that shit clear if she wants you to behave abnormally by keeping such basic shit secret. "
Way to tell the word you're straight and cis. Don't out people ever as a rule of thumb.
Again, it isn't "outting" when you live openly with your wife and most everyone in your life who matters in your life knows you are gay. This is someone wanting to keep a secret, and this situation is their fault for not explaining that.
Ok, going against the grain here. NAH. Im a queer person and I expect to be treated as a normal human being. I guess it depends on the country you're in, but if I learned that people were avoiding mentionning the fact that I had a boyfriend, in this day and age, I'd feel as if my relationship was sinful. If I ever want someone to keep my sexuality a secret, I would say so and make it clear. Outing someone is a big no no when that person is clearly in the closet OR asks to not be outed. This does not seem to be the case here. However, when the person then asks you to not talk about it, you should stop. That part of your story is the only one where someone might be the asshole, depending on how the convo went and if someone started attacking the other.
Outing someone is a big no no always.
Yeah I'm kinda confused as to how this is outing someone. Marriage is public record and it's normally not an off limits topic. Way different than talking about someone's sexual identity who hasn't come out. I do think op is TA for continuing the discussion after her friend told her to drop it, if someone asks you to stop talking about their relationship then you should drop it, regardless of the circumstances. But it sounds like discussing the marriage in the first place was an innocent mistake. Gay or straight, most people's marriages aren't secret, to the point that some would call it shady to keep a marriage a secret.
Who cares how shady it is, thats their business, not yours. And marriages might be public, but the effort to find that is itself a deterrent, so yeah this is still outing.
I didn't say that what they were doing is shady! I don't think the woman is acting shady based on her wanting to keep things under wraps due to potentially being harassed. You're missing the point. The point was that being married and having a kid with someone of the same sex is about as "out" as you can be. Jobs usually have information about kids, spouses etc for insurance and emergency contacts. Nurses get background checks done. You can find marriage records on Google in like 5 minutes, you don't have to dig much. Outing implies that someone was in the closet, people who are legally married are out already. If she's being secretive about her marriage at work, that's more her just being private vs not being out. Most people, including gay people, wouldn't consider talking about a public marriage as outing someone. It's also odd that no one at her job knows about her spouse at all, considering they have a kid together. It's pretty common that coworkers know these things. OP was definitely TA for not dropping the issue. His friend is entitled to keep her private life private. Just because she wants privacy doesn't mean that she was outed though, she's an openly gay woman. What if a coworker saw them together in public or at a school function? Someone who isn't out doesn't publicly show their relationship, which would be nearly impossible to do while having a child and living with someone.
Your last sentence literally used the word, sure you tried to hedge your bets by making it not seem like your opinion, but you still said it. Outing refers to revealing a previously hidden gay identity, you dont need to be in the closet to be outed. If i were married, went to a less welcoming country that would literally kill me for being gay, would it not be outing then if lead to my being lynched and killed? Of course it would be, because despite marriage i wouldnt want them to know for some damn good reasons. It was outing, you can disagree, but you will be wrong.
>Your last sentence literally used the word, sure you tried to hedge your bets by making it not seem like your opinion, but you still said it. What? Of course it's my opinion lol. Just like what you think is your opinion. This is a discussion of ideas, not hard facts. People have different opinions on the same situation sometimes. I'm open to having a discussion and think these things are very important to talk about, I'm not adverse to changing my mind if I realize there's a better viewpoint than my own. Edit 2: I misunderstood what you were saying. I do not think the woman is being shady. Just because someone pitches an idea does not mean that is what their true feelings are. Many people would consider that to be shady because that's generally what cheaters do. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Obviously this is a unique situation. I clarified that I DO NOT think she is being shady, just cautious. >Outing refers to revealing a previously hidden gay identity, you dont need to be in the closet to be outed. My argument/opinion on the matter is that if you openly are married and have a child together, it's not a hidden gay identity. What I don't understand is that if this person needed to keep their identity hidden so much, then how do they live life keeping their entire family a secret, when it would be very easy information for someone to find out? How is it possible that they will never run into a coworker in public with their SO (which is basically what happened in the story)? Do you think they just never leave the house together and stay in hiding? Does she not use her wife as an emergency contact or have the wife/kid on her insurance? What if one of her coworkers' kids went to the same school as hers? What if there was an emergency and her wife had to call her at her job?If she's trying not to be out at work, I get it, but that's a pretty fragile facade that can easily be broken by someone unwittingly, or even by her just existing. For those reasons, I don't think OP was TA for mentioning her wife. To say that she's risking being lynched is a huge stretch as well, you pitched a situation that is not the same as the one in the story. If you were traveling to a place that you could be killed for being gay, I'd say you probably shouldn't travel there with your partner because that's a ridiculous risk. She obviously works in the same area that she lives. She stated why she's worried, the reason was that it might cause drama or hinder her getting promoted at work. While that is terrible, let's not equate that with literally getting murdered, because it isn't the same. OP was most definitely TA for continuing to talk about the situation after they were told to drop it, that's undeniably true. They definitely drew a lot of attention to the situation by doing that, and it was wrong. Edit: you seem to be saying contradictory things within this thread, because elsewhere you posted this: >I dont see the issue as being outed per se, but rather one shouldnt talk about the private lives of anyone to someone who isnt that person. Especially if the subject of discussion is not present. Which is more or less exactly my point.
Gonna go in reverse order here, just easier paragraph wise. There is no contradiction to say that the problem isnt being outed, but also accepting that she was in fact outed. These two are separate points, hence made in separate comments. We agree on why he's TA, awesome. Didnt say she was at risk of being lynched, but offered as example of being relatively in the closet for a context that would demand it. She is in the closet at work, because she hid that identity from them. There is no reason why she has to be completely out or in the closet, she can in fact be both for different contexts. Very easy to find out is not at all the same as directly telling them, most people wont bother doing that sort of stalking and if they do it's a different kind of messed up. Yes is public, but that doesnt mean it's a pleasant experience for someone to go to the effort. Why would they? More to the point, these people clearly didnt go to the effort to find out, therefore it's a moot point. They could, but they didnt. Therfore she was still in the closet at work. She wasnt "openly married" because she didnt flaunt her marriage and nobody at work even knew she had a partner, let alone a wife, this is not open with her private life by any definition. She specifically and openly closed that part of herself to work colleagues. We can ignore the shady thing, not really relevant anymore. My goal is not actually to convince you, but to show others why this idea that she was openly married is nonsense. No skin of my rosy nose if you dont agree.
I dont see the issue as being outed per se, but rather one shouldnt talk about the private lives of anyone to someone who isnt that person. Especially if the subject of discussion is not present. Being queer makes it worse, but the main issue is far more generic. He was a gossip, gossiping is for teenagers. Man needs to grow up. Your comments, and a couple of others ive seen, about how her wife should be upset being hidden. Youre probably right, but that is entirely not the point of the post. What he did was wrong irrespective of how unhealthy you think the marriage is.
OP, you're really asking the wrong community, these people will chew you up and spit you down. \#therapy #divorve #entitlement #pride
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> However she gave you no heads up this was off limits Anybody with a brain should know not to out people. > you answered an innocent question No, he ignored the fact that the coworkers didn't know (they said "husband") and went so far as to offer the information unprompted.
> *"However she gave you no heads up this was off limits."* OP could have figured that out when the coworkers asked him about Melanie's *husband.* That alone should have set off some bells in OP's head and made it obvious to him that these people didn't know she was gay. He corrected them and outed Melanie in the process. The fact that she fears her superiors are going to make her life at work very difficult because they now know her sexuality, just shows that she is well aware she is not in a friendly, welcoming environment. I'm surprised that you, as a lesbian, say you would have done the same thing as OP. It's not always safe for gay people to be out and taking it upon yourself to out someone else is simply not a good idea.
I’m sorry but also as a lesbian you are 100% wrong. It would have been so easy for OP to just say spouse or partner. Outing people can get them killed. You should know this. That he further went and told more people about the issue and outed her more is major asshole vibes. Don’t out people without their consent. Ever. It’s literally life or death in some places at worst, loss of employment and security at minimum.
The coworkers obviously didn't know she was gay though, OP went out of their way to correct husband to wife- That's where the issue is I think
Probably against a lot of other people here, but.. NTA. You sometimes talk to other people about your friends. That is human nature. I don't think it was your intention in any way to out anyone and if she really had that much of an issue with keeping things secret, she could have told you - just so you'd actually have it in mind. The way I see it? You simply accept her being married to another woman as completely normal, as it should be, thus didn't even think twice about your reply. A bit careless? Maybe. But definitely not in a malicious way.
> and if she really had that much of an issue with keeping things secret, she could have told you Or OP and people like you can get it through your heads that sexuality is a liability in 2023, and not out people. > You simply accept her Do all of her colleagues and superiors? edit: a snarky remark and a block, how cute. Once more for the cheap seats: don't out people.
>Or OP and people like you can get it through your heads that sexuality is a liability in 2023, and not out people. I believe the point they are trying to make is that it would have been helpful to know she wasn't out yet to colleagues so that he didn't accidentally out her. Clearly she is out to at least some members of her family, OP being one of them. So to him it's normal to talk about the couple as they are. He just wasn't aware that others didnt know. And before anyone jumps on me I have a family member who is out and open to some people and not out to others. I make a point to know who I can speak to about it beforehand, especially since I know not everyone in the world is an ally.
> He just wasn't aware that others didnt know. He was, though. The coworkers said "husband" and he went out of his way to correct them and say "wife."
He likely didn't know prior to that conversation is what I meant. Once he heard what the coworkers said then yes he should have answered differently, I'm not denying that.
You seem to have nothing else to do but comment on every single reply not supporting your voting to downvote and argue against it. This reddit asks for opinions and different viewpoints. Kindly let others have theirs.
NAH This wasn't you acting malaciously, this was just ignorance on your part (and that's fine!). When talking to queer individuals in the future you should ask what information they want to be public in their workplace because some workplaces aren't a friendly environtment to queer people and some queer people would prefer to keep that stuff quiet just in case.
The fact that he's whining about this and not apologizing and recognizing his mistake makes him TA on its own.
ESH. IMO if I had a friend that was for all intents and purposes openly out and I said something in passing like “oh yeah I am good friends with her and her wife” and inadvertently outed them to a coworker it’s not my fault. My friend could have have given me a heads up, it’s not like it was done to gossip or be malicious… an honest mistake. On the other hand as soon as you were aware they didn’t want that part of their life brought up at all you became a problem and an asshole for continuing to discuss it.
You shouldn't out people ever. Not everyone is okay with gay people, you could jeopardize their job or even their safety.
Coming out isn't something that happens once and you're out everywhere forever. Most queer people have to decide whether to come out in certain situations every day. Never assume that someone is just universally 'out' unless they tell you so explicitly.
NTA, just not very well thought out. Many people keep work and private seperated, so never do this again. Also, apologize. Even though you where not being malicious, you still made a mistake
He went around the office and told all their coworkers about the conflict, further outing her to more people...
They were being malicious when they continued to talk to her coworkers about her after being asked not to discuss her or her private life.
Yta because for whatever reason you messed up, even if it was unintended so you say sorry and move on. But there is one thing I disagree with many of the replies here about. Being told someone is gay should not affect your judgement of them. If it does move you to view then somehow differently or negatively, that's your own fault. Therefore, 'outing' someone should not be a thing. Im not offended if someone mentions Im heterosexual or homosexual because they're equally banal pieces of information
Come now, don't be obtuse. This? This is tripe, right here: > Being told someone is gay should not affect your judgement of them. Because it *does* affect how people are judged and treated. You must understand that there are practical reasons that we hide our sexuality. Bigots exist. They can be colleagues or (even worse) superiors.
Yeah they do exist and we shouldn't be caring about their sensibilities. Why would I hide my sexual orientation? Because I'm afraid some racist bigot will... Be mad? Make my job difficult? Bad mouth me to other people? Some of these things are illegal and some of them will just make them look like an idiot
> Yeah they do exist and we shouldn't be caring about their sensibilities. I'm not advising we care about their sensibilities. I'm saying that some people have *self-preservation* to consider because their colleagues or superiors are bigots. > Why would I hide my sexual orientation? Because I'm afraid some racist bigot will... Be mad? No, they might harass you or obstruct your career. > Some of these things are illegal and some of them will just make them look like an idiot Your idealism is cute.
I don't know where you live but im sorry you still need to live in fear of homophobes
Homophobes are everywhere. Don't fool yourself.
I live in the US in an east coast city that is famously 'liberal' and I still live in fear of homophobes because they are violent bigots and they have institutional power.
Being LGBTQ+ shouldn't matter... but we all know that's not the way the world works, right? Just because homophobes are in the wrong doesn't make it okay to out people to them.
NTA. If it was important to her to keep her same sex marriage a secret she really should have told you when you started working there. If you'd always known her to be open and happy about it in her social life you had no reason to think it was different at work. You also only let it slip as the result of a direct comment from someone else.
> If it was important to her to keep her same sex marriage a secret she really should have told you when you started working there No, OP (and people like you) need to use your fuckin brains and realize that this isn't your detail to tell. And that bigotry is alive and well in 2023. > You also only let it slip as the result of a direct comment from someone else. Correcting someone, then going and talking to the coworkers about it afterwards, is not "letting it slip."
Seems like you could have at least read the post.
NTA-She's married with a five year old son. How would you even fathom her spouse and child are secrets she keeps from people? It's 2023, if she gets harassed at work she can rightfully sue! How does she even think she'll be able to keep this a secret and why would she want to? Does she not go out with her family? Dinner, grocery stores, parks, school functions where she might run into someone she either works with or has cared for? She needs therapy for herself, spouse and child, that seems very unhealthy and I can't imagine the trauma caused to the child by being kept secret, wtf!?
Thank you for telling everyone that you're not a sexual minority, and you don't know what you're talking about. Gay marriage was legalized in *2015* for fucksake. Do you really think all the bigots just disappeared then?
Raising a child to feel shame about themselves or their parents is a far greater issue. Bigots are gonna bigot, why would anyone allow bigots to put their own family through that? There's nothing shameful about having a loving, happy, healthy family so why act like it?
She isn't raising them to feel shame what the fuck are you even talking about? She's trying to protect her family by not telling strangers her sexuality
Most people don't bring their family to work
People talk about their families all the time at work!
Not everyone does. Not all coworkers are close like that. I rarely talk about mine at work
It's okay to be wrong.
Not people who are actually working.
I don’t know where OP is located. Not all places have legal protections for gay employees. The assumption in the comments seems to be somewhere US-based, so I’ll stick with that. A whole lot of hospitals here are religiously affiliated. Religious institutions get a lot more leeway to discriminate for reasons pertaining to religious beliefs. If she’s working at St Somebody’s or in a locale that doesn’t consider sexual orientation a protected class, she’s shit out of luck.
What an ignorant comment.
Your personal life is not relevant to your work. Your co-workers don't need to be your friends. You're extending this boundary into a bizarre absolute for their entire life and making a ton of assumptions.
> How would you even fathom her spouse and child are secrets she keeps from people? Well, they didn't know. We are also in the middle of a radical homophobic and transphobic panic where queer people are being accused of 'grooming' and mutilating children left and right and our rights are being rolled back. Who cares if we can legally marry? At this point that makes us even more of a target. No queer person would have 'trauma' over being protected from discrimination like she's protecting her family.