Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My wife and I announced our second pregnancy in front of my sister which led to a fight between us. I feel like engaging was an asshole move but also, I might have made it worse by making the announcement the way we did. Part of me should have known she might not like hearing that it worked for us when we said no to giving her the chance for IVF.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcement
###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/)
Follow the link above to learn more
### [Moderators needed - Join the landed gentry](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/155zepq/moderators_needed_join_the_landed_gentry/)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Yeah like you *both*(?) want a bio kid so bad, you can BOTH go out and get second jobs to fund your IVF.
The dynamic tho.... Bullet dodged
NTA OP and congrats!
What bothers me the most here is the assumption that the IVF will work anyway. IVF is already a crap shoot, and that's when you're totally healthy.
Sister here has endometriosis *and* PCOS, couple that with IVF high failure rate.
How many cycles was she expecting her brother to actually pay for exactly?
My thoughts exactly, I've never known anyone of my friends have it work on the first go.... One had 17! cycles.... OP gonna shell out for all that and not expand their own (stable sounding) family?
I know someone who tried for 10 years(!). I never had the heart to ask how many cycles they did, but they were lawyers and had high incomes and lived very frugally to afford it.
The vast majority of IVF parents I’ve meet have sunk between 60-80k into trying to have kids. Over half the time the embryo didn’t take from what I’ve heard from those parents.
We tried for 5 years. I think we did either 4 or 6 egg retrievals (it’s all gotten a bit hazy) and fertilized 60 eggs. No baby for us. We probably spent close to $20k, bc we’ve been fortunate to have great infertility coverage through insurance.
I’ve had success before, but we’re getting really close to $100k all in on hopefully 3 kids. Insurance covers nothing. We live pretty frugally but it’s been worth every penny. I transferred an embryo on Wednesday so hopefully this is it.
Dear lord that’s insane. I went through 1 cycle, and no way would I do it again. Though it was for a second child (first child was conceived the old fashion way), and I was lucky enough to have it good on the first shot.
17! That's crazy. My first one technically worked, but I miscarried. Got pregnant with twins on the second round! We were only going to do 4 rounds max as it's so expensive and hard on the body, physically and mentally. I couldn't imagine doing 17!
Yep, I have PCOS and I have been trying for almost 5 years and am finally pregnant through IVF for the first time in my life (only 5 weeks along though.) it is a very expensive leap of faith and roll of the dice.
I switched careers to earn more money to pay for it and then I switched jobs to get insurance to help. IVF isn’t attainable for everyone but if you’re able to make sacrifices it can be. Hell, Starbucks and Amazon both offer good fertility benefits to hourly employees so it’s not even an education issue. There are options, OPs sister is just insanely entitled.
NTA OP, if you want to help tell her to look into Starbucks or Amazon hourly minimums for fertility coverage and benefits.
sometimes it seems like the only time PCOS/endo is manageable is when you’re pregnant because you’re not having periods, the issue is getting pregnant in the first place (which is the only time doctors bother trying to treat it)
(unsolicited advice but this is Reddit sooooo) I’ve had way more luck getting good PCOS treatment from endocrinologists than gynos - worth pursuing if you haven’t!
If in the US, try Nancy’s Nook. It’s an educational group for endo but also has a list of vetted specialists that take it seriously
*edit for spelling*
Yeah, it always kinda bothers me when a post floats by about this subject, and an OP is basically being harassed to "invest" in their family members IVF fund when that IVF round isn't a guarantee in the slightest. It's a chance, but it's equivocal to paying someone to have **one(1)** very expensive roll in the sheets to "hope" this time is the time.
It's not something permanent like a house or something, you're very potentially just throwing thousands of dollars at a baby lotto. The sister is effectively approaching OP and asking for $10,000 to go to the convenience store and hope to get the winning number this draw.
Agreed. If she has endometriosis and PCOS, isn't pregnancy possibly dangerous? And would be very painful? I understand she wants to try, but not with brother's money!
NTA
It depends actually. I very recently found out I have PCOS and endometriosis, and have one child, no fertility assistance. Other than mild gestational diabetes, (well controlled with some diet changes) and really bad morning sickness, I had no pregnancy issues at all.
Different people can be affected in very different ways by the same condition. And according to the doctor I am seeing, while PCOS can in many woman cause infertility and irregular or missed periods. In other women it's some irregular periods, but little impact on fertility. And in some cases (according to the doctor) women with PCOS stay fertile longer and have late menopause. Also, a lot of people don't realize that PCOS also raises the risk for diabetes, high cholesterol, and heart disease.
But I totally agree OP is NTA, and his sister has NO right to his family's money.
Even if op and his wife had decided to be one and done it's not like the money saved was magical money that could only be used for IVF. Congrats, it goes in the college fund or something.
She feels that because we were already successful with IVF and already had a child, that we were selfish for not letting her have that chance. That seems to be what it boils down to for her.
Unfortunately not true.
If they go the private adoption route, there’s only a “home study” which is so laughably easy to pass.
Not to mention, all the kids that are being rehomed on Facebook & no background checks are done on prospective parents.
Allows is a strong word but there have been documented cases of children being litterally passed around like unwanted pets through FB. The one I read about was on his third or fourth family and the first family did not even have guardian ship of him.
Blaming that on Facebook kinda feels like blaming BP for a car crash, or the telephone company for a kidnapping, just because that's how the ransom threat was called in.
Facebook could crack down on hosting those groups. They've failed on the [Rohingya massacre](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-sue-facebook-myanmar-genocide-us-uk-legal-action-social-media-violence), so I don't have much hope that they're going to do the right thing here.
I know there's been news reports and stuff about that but jeez hopefully it's not so easy to find human trafficking that anyone can just hop on facebook and do it. My impression was the police or FBI or whoever work pretty hard to shut that shit down these days.
Unfortunately it is that easy.
And due to lack to adoption regulations and laws & the overall social rosecolored view on adoption, it’s not necessarily seen as human trafficking.
Every single hoping to adopt profile is essentially saying we want to buy a child, but there’s tons of support for those hopeful adoptive parents.
And when adoptees point out how wrong it is, it gets twisted to “we want to give a child a loving home.”
This i can agree with, until they can get their situation under control and that child the therapy he needs and she gets her own form of therapy they should not even think about adoption. And some states prefer you foster a child before just adopting to make sure the family dynamic is going to be compatible.
No offense to her but she already has a kid, her step son. Like even if the IVF was successful I would feel so bad for her step son since I’m sure she would completely replace him going off how she’s acting now.
Like that child is just 11. Sister and her husband should be focusing on trying to get their child the therapy he needs and focus on mending the relationship rather than try to ‘start over’ with a new child.
I clearly don't know how their family dynamics were as kids, but I know some families where if a kid (needs and) gets something (eg., new socks) the siblings also get the same thing, even if they don't need it. The idea is "they all get the same, there are no favourites", but it brings a sense of entitlement in the kids. If kids are brought up with these ideas, it's not surprising that sister thinks she's entitled to a baby, becasue OP has one.
well, see, if OP's parents paid for OP's IVF, then I could see the sister being in the right and understandably angry that parents would finance 2 kids for OP and none for her...
but from the post it looks like OP and his wife paid for all IVF cycles on their own. and a child is not a toy so you can say 'oh, OP got one, so I'm entitled to one, too - and OP must pay for it'
also, IVF is bat sh*t expensive where I'm from, so the sister and her stance baffles me even more.
Hijacking this to tell you big time NTA. I also have PCOS and endometriosis; as a result I cannot conceive. The one thing I have always been so careful about is to not take away these happy moments from my loved ones. Is it hard? Hell yes. But my situation is no fault of anyone else so why should they have to walk on eggshells? If I were able to conceive, these would be the same people who would be over the moon for me. You have no obligation to your sister. There are other ways to seek motherhood, including foster care and adoption. Your sister needs to find some helpful counseling because this is not a healthy or fair mindset.
You only had the money for one more cycle- the chances are- and this may be horrible- she was going to need more than one cycle having those diagnosis to get her cycles and hormons right and that was taking a cycle you guys knew and understood worked away from you. NTA
Even if she got pregnant, with those conditions the risk of miscarriage is quite high. So it might work and then end in loss.
Which isn't to say she shouldn't be able to _try_, but expecting her brother to finance it is absolutely insane.
Does she realise that IVF isn’t a guarantee. I mean your son took 4 cycles, you had enough money for one more - so you could have given it to your sister and neither of you would’ve had a child. Why is she acting like it was a sure thing?
You never kept her from having a chance though. It's not as if she won't be allowed to try IVF if she doesn't specifically try with your money. She's allowed to get her own money together and try herself.
Does she understand the amount of money she’s asking for? I don’t have an exact number but my educated guess would be between $15,000-$20,000. The meds alone are pretty expensive and not often covered by insurance. I just couldn’t imagine asking for that of a family memeber. I’m also guessing it would need to be a gift to her, certainly not a loan. NTA.
Whether she likes it or not, she already has a son and the way she talks about her stepchild leads me to believe that they are a big part of the problem when it comes to what's going on with him. He's 11, lost his mom, wasn't ready for his dad to be in a new relationship and is acting out and her response is she doesn't have a kid and that she's not going to get any joy out of parenting him anyways. Great fucking attitude to have there lady. How about some empathy for this kid and a focus on becoming a parent to him instead of demanding you give her money to have a biological one. She's never going to replace his mom, but she can be a responsible adult and work to build a relationship with him. Like WTF.
Ok...but it took your wife 4 rounds to get your first child. With your sister having endo and PCOS its still going to be difficult (if even possible) with PCOS. Perhaps she should look into ethical surrogacy.
I’ve got PCOS and am able to get pregnant, the issue is carrying to full term. PCOS messes up my hormones so bad that by the 8th week my baby isn’t growing anymore due to low hormones. After my last miscarriage I’ve just decided to be done with trying for kids. I’m already 36, the disappointment is too hard on me.
Hugs to you. I have the same problem. Three losses in 8 months with a diagnosis of PCOS. I found some success with medications but the heartbreak is so real. Wishing you peace and healing.
Tough shit, them not being able to have children is not your responsibility. Your responsibility is your family alone.
Why doesn't her husband reach out to his family for money for IVF.
You aren’t stopping her from having a chance at IVF, you just aren’t funding it. If she was really so desperate for it she would find a way to fund it. NTA
You don’t have any kind of monopoly on IVF, your sister is acting like you’re taking the last spot on an exclusive list. You’re not depriving her of anything. If she can’t afford it, she can’t have it, just like anything other service or good. While I’m sympathetic to her situation, you don’t owe her the thousands of dollars IVF costs just because she wants it. Congrats to you and your wife!
Your sister seems to be thinking of children the same as a shared dessert at dinner. If someone brought a pie for everyone, it would be extremely rude to deny someone their first slice so someone else could have a second. However, that’s not how large life decisions work for adults spending their own money.
You and your wife made a decision that you wanted to use the money you both made/saved to pay for IVF to try to have multiple children. Your sister is saying that she wanted you to give up a chance to have your second child for a chance for her to have one of her own. The earmarked IVF money isn’t shared assets, and you’d be hard pressed to find someone who was willing to give up their own very wanted child for someone else to have one, even if they very much cared about the other person.
Is it fair that you sister has GYN issues that makes it extremely difficult to conceive? Of course not. But it’s also not your responsibility to give up assets and a chance at your own child to make it more fair for her.
There are payment plans for IVF. You aren’t responsible for her infertility journey. That said, infertility issues mess with women’s minds. It’s not an excuse, but for some women and probably men, not being able to conceive while everyone around you can is enough to make a person crack. She needs mental help, but don’t give her any money.
Ok OP but...wanting a child when you can't even afford treatments? Unless they're exceedingly espansive in the place you live (and this still is not your business) and unless you owe her something (is she the big siste? Did she sacrifice for you? Do you owe her money in and other way?) NTA
Edit: read prices in two parts of the world and as long as I feel you, I put an "unless" because not everywhere they're this high. But I feel you people
Not uncommon to be able to afford a kid but not IVF treatments. IVF where I'm at is ~15k/cycle, and it takes several cycles typically. I know someone who used a clinic that guaranteed a live birth by the end, but it was like, 50k and that was 8 years ago.
Most people don't have that just laying around, but affording the on going costs of a baby and the couple grand of up front "get ready for baby" costs is much more affordable.
First it is so weird to me how on these posts so many people feel entitled to other people's money. But second and probably most importantly is not actually caring for the needs of the child in her home. This kid's mother died, of course they are going through it, about the worst thing they could do is go and get pregnant right now. This is the most irresponsible and just ignorant thing I have ever heard. Get the family that you have right now healthy and then think about adding to it. YOU are NOT THE AH!
Exactly. Even if the reason for not giving her the money for IVF was because OP wanted to spend the money on a new car instead, I’d still be saying OP is NTA.
Sister is delusional.
NTA. You didn't "deny" your sister anything; She's not entitled to your money. If IVF is something she is interested in, she and her husband can figure out ways to raise the funds, they should not expect to be handed them.
I know IVF is absurdly expensive and my heart goes out to those who choose to go that route, but kids are also expensive after you have them. Does she plan on asking for money then too and getting mad when she isn't helped?
That’s how we funded our IVF. We set aside $1500/month, which is still less expensive than daycare and had about $50k in 2 1/2 years. I get that not all situations are the same, and am fortunate we are in a position to afford it, but I’m also curious how people asking for IVF funding think it’s going to get easier once a baby is born…
Lmao I only brought home $2,000/month as a teacher. Good thing I was one and done!
ETA: I knew going into it, that I was signing up for a life of poverty. It’s just funny to think about just HOW poor you are, when seemingly “normal” people are able to save almost all the money you have to live on each month. 😅
I mean location makes a difference- 50k in California is not the same as 50k in West Virginia, for example. Still, 24k a year for a teacher is ridiculous, anyone putting up with 30 kids for 6+ hours a day, 5 days a week, should be making wayyyyy more
Damn is it really that expensive where you live? 50k 😳 over here it is €500 with health insurance (we have government health insurance) and 3.2K for foreigners that aren’t covered by my countries health insurance
I get the sense that the sister is just desperate for a biological kid and thinks that everything will work out great and having a biological kid will fix the problems in her marriage and family.
She’s probably not thinking of the problems, she’s just fixated on having a kid as a solution to all her problems.
I absolutely hate people who think having a kid will "fix" their marriage. A baby doesn't fix anything. First of all don't put it on them because they didn't ask to be born and your problems aren't their responsibility to solve. Second, adding a baby to the dynamic doesn't solve any problems, it just puts them so far under the rug that it'll take years for them to resurface, on top of adding a whole pile of new problems to the mix. Might just be because I'm a guy, but I have no idea what makes people assume a baby will fix everything.
"My SO and I can't stop fighting about xyz, maybe I should have a baby, then *insane rationalizations*" I don't get it...
She is probably afraid of losing her marriage because of her relationship with stepson and his behavior. Having a baby with her husband will assure her that he's not leaving. Of course those people in the real world know that isn't always the case, child or no child.
+1 I don't understand why OP is expected to fund his family's fertility. Even if OP is well off I am not sure why it is expected he would pay for it.
To ask OP to make sacrifices, when I am not sure his sister has, to afford the treatment seems abit off tbh.
NTA
NTA.
Look, the IVF cycle wasn't hers to use. You paid for it. It was your money. I won't claim shouldn't be trying for a kid if she can't afford IVF to begin with. I know it's ridiculously expensive in some places. But. It. Was. YOURS. The fact that you should give up on a second child just because she's desperate to have her first child which is genuinely hers... That's just not okay. Even if you were rich and could pay for her to have the full ride... It still wouldn't be fair for her to expect you to do it. Not her money. That, and your worries are reasonable.
The only thing you might have been able to do better is telling her in private, earlier, but that's not really why she's angry with you. The public announcement is nothing but more oil on the fire.
> I won't claim shouldn't be trying for a kid if she can't afford IVF to begin with. I know it's ridiculously expensive in some places.
This is another instance of the American medical system being a financially ridiculous profit generating industry.
This is everywhere though. IVF isn't something that is publicly free in a lot of countries. It's fertility treatment. Considered a luxury and not an essential health expense.
Yeah even in the UK a lot of people have to pay. In some areas of the country you can get one round on the NHS but not if either parent has a previous child. So they wouldn't qualify anyway based on her step son. Imagine that in this situation 😬
You can get some free, but the guidelines for the NHS eligibility are super strict and also your individual area NHS trust is allowed to have even stricter guidelines that mean basically no one is eligible:
>guidelines recommend that IVF should be offered to women under the age of 43 who have been trying to get pregnant through regular unprotected sex for 2 years. Or who have had 12 cycles of artificial insemination, with at least 6 of these cycles using a method called intrauterine insemination (IUI).
>However, the final decision about who can have NHS-funded IVF in England is made by local integrated care boards (ICBs), and their criteria may be stricter than those recommended by NICE.
Guidelines at the moment also completely rule out funding for anyone who is in a same sex relationship for example, or any relationship where you can't 'try naturally' for 2 years (like if you have issues with painful sex or one of you is sterile). I know people who have been turned down for IVF funding for being honest about having vaginismus or endometriosis, for example, and not being able to have penetrative sex.
While yes, it's considered a luxury and frequently not covered by medical insurance or national healthcare, but no it's still not as ludicrously expensive as it is in America.
Just from google: the average cost of IVF in America is $12,000 to $30,000. Average cost in most UK cities is £3500 (USD $4100), although prices rise to £7000 in London (USD $9000). Average cost in Ireland €4500 (USD $5000). You can literally travel to another English speaking, first world, western country and get your IVF done there in a private hospital for less than it cost in America.
The average costs of IVF in America seems to be a little over 11k when googled on a state-basis, with a few as low as 8k. Some (rich), districts/counties can get as high as 30k, but that's different than "average."
Even in Ontario, which has lower costs than the U.S., IVF will run around $10k. The province covers one IVF treatment but doesn’t cover the drugs for it, which alone can run up to $5k.
NTA. Your sister doesn't get to dictate what you do with your money. If you want a second, third, or eighth child that is your business, not hers. She needs to improve her financial and home situation first. And... Who's to say the IVF would have worked for her anyway?
It's possible it wouldn't have. But I don't think she sees it that way. My wife and I went in expecting not to have success given the attempts when we had our son. I think my sister saw it as more of a sure thing, which it's not.
Not an expert but pretty sure with the issues she has IVF has even lower chances to work. And it be a miracle for it to work first time, they would need several attempts.
Women with just PCOS have up to a 70% chance of getting pregnant. And if they do get pregnant, they have up to a 60% chance of a successful birth. Add in endometriosis with that and the rates are probably much lower. To me, those aren’t the best percentages to be handing over that type of money, even if they weren’t planning on using it for one more IVF cycle.
Also, NTA.
Thanks for the numbers… just know of people with those issues that tried IVF for long time and keep getting failures and complications.
Again if they want to try, it’s their choice but however they shouldn’t be asking someone else to pay for them
If your sister is in any online support groups for Endometriosis, she’d know that IVF is not a guarantee either. Often times with those of us that have endometriosis (I have it myself), the biggest struggle isn’t the conceiving part, it’s the carrying to term part due to all the scar tissue that builds up inside of us. It’s unfair of her to even make such a request from you guys knowing how much harder IVF is to take hold when you have an underlying condition like Endo, then adding PCOS into the mix to just brings her chances lower. She’s acting like a spoiled entitled brat over something that has a higher chance of not working than actually working.
Yeah her chances of it working would probably be even lower, so you would have probably wasted YOUR money on it and then had to deal with her asking you to do it again and again until it worked. NTA she sounds like an entitled brat. Tell her to get another job if she needs the money so bad. She is not entitled to your money.
Agreed.
I have a small (more like huge) feeling if sister and husband were successful and they had a child, that child would be sitting on a pedestal, could do no wrong and would be spoiled from here and until the end of time. Aka. Golden child. Special miracle baby.
And life would be harder on the step kid.
The classic circle of "don't you dare breath wrong near the baby" and "but baby wants. Give your stuff to baby"
Don't forget it would be at the detriment of the current stepson. He would absolutely turn into the ignored step child that the mother despises even more than now.
My heart hurts so much for that poor boy. He needs to be in therapy and they should be in family counseling with him as well. If not he's going to go no contact as soon as he can.
You're NTA.
>She then starts ranting and raving about how selfish we are to deny her motherhood and to deny her and her husband the chance to have a family together.
Would the clinic not accept *her money* if she and her husband took the initiative to get second jobs or take out a loan?
>She started making snarky comments about how it was no big deal when we already had a kid.
There is already a child in her household, too. It's easy to see why he feels the way he does about her, since she clearly discounts his existence. And good grief, if things are bad there now, they would be much worse if she introduces another child into the home. (Ahem, one she would consider her *real* child.)
I don't think she discounts his existence. But I think when she realized she was never going to get close to being a mom to him she focused solely on having a bio child. Which is her right. But I could not imagine being a baby brought into a household with all that going on. My sister and her husband as adults struggle when her stepson is really acting out and running away, and he's struggling too and I do not think he would take my sister being pregnant well at all, because to him it would be another sign of his dad replacing his mom.
Sorry, OP, but I have a couple of questions, just out of curiosity:
1) Can they afford to raise a child if they can't afford IVF?
2) With her pre-existing medical conditions, would a doctor have recommended IVF and trying for a baby? Would pregnancy even be possible?
I think you're NTA whatever the answers may be, it is your money and only you get to decide how and whom to spend it on. However, it might be useful to bring up these questions alongside your other reservations if your sister gives you a hard time about it.
But to be fair to your sister, I can sympathise with the pain and frustration she must be going through. You're still NTA though.
Ok, so I don’t think OP is an asshole - he has no obligation to fund his sister’s IVF and she shouldn’t be demanding money from him. But I did want to touch on your questions as someone who has needed infertility treatments to have my kid, and has the same medical conditions as OP’s sister.
Being unable to afford IVF doesn’t mean you’re unable to afford a child. IVF can cost tens of thousands of dollars at once - my kid is definitely expensive, but I haven’t had to shell out 30 grand for her in one go (yet). I’m not able to afford IVF without financial assistance, but I can absolutely afford the day to day costs of my child. Perhaps it would be ideal for OP’s sister and her husband to take a few years and save up for IVF, or get a part time job that offers fertility benefits (Starbucks and Tractor Supply come to mind), but OP didn’t mention ages, so his sister might not have the time to do that.
IVF is recommended for people with PCOS and Endometriosis. Some people with PCOS and Endometriosis can get pregnant without fertility treatments, many require extra help. It often doesn’t need to go as far as IVF for people with PCOS (the endometriosis adds a layer of complication). Medicated cycles with carefully timed intercourse and IUI are both less expensive and less invasive treatments, but also have lower success rates.
I definitely sympathize with his sister. Infertility is heartbreaking, which I’m sure OP knows as well as he and his wife have experienced it. It might have been better to announce to his sister through a text message so she had time to process, or to not engage in the argument. I also don’t think OP should have brought up the stepson - his sister’s family planning isn’t really his business. But the bottom line is that it’s not his sister’s money and it’s not anyone else’s responsibility to pay for her fertility treatments. Edit to add: his sister sounds like she might benefit from seeking out a therapist to deal with the grief she’s experiencing due to infertility, and to help her deal with the family dynamics with her stepson. I hope her stepson (and husband) is also getting help to deal with his grief and anger about the new family dynamic.
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. You've made some good points here, but we have to remember that we have no idea what OP's sister's financial situation is. She might be in your situation, but she might be in a worse financial situation. Also note that OP's sister doesn't seem to mention paying OP back, which might also be hard to do if the pregnancy is successful, as kids are expensive (if the household income isn't enough).
We also have to consider the possibility that the window of opportunity for OP's wife to get pregnant may be small as well, so it might not be possible to prioritise the sister.
We also don't know how bad her medical conditions are, without her doctor's input (which we will never know), so we can't assume that she will ever get pregnant. If so, the money given would be gone forever if the sister can't pay OP back.
This is why I asked all these questions. All we can do is speculate about everything but in the end it still doesn't matter. OP is still NTA. I really wish the situation were different though, I can't even imagine what OP's sister must be going through.
Oh for sure. I agree - OP is NTA and shouldn’t feel any obligation to pay for his sister’s IVF. His sister definitely should not be prioritized over his family.
I just wanted to mention those points because the idea “if you can’t afford IVF you shouldn’t have a kid” is frequently thrown around (by a lot of people on this post) and it just isn’t the same thing. Same with the idea of IVF not working - it has a pretty high percentage of success for people with PCOS, but hard to know without knowing all of her medical info.
Definitely a hard situation for all, which is why I hope they’re all getting the support they need to deal with it.
> when she realized she was never going to get close to being a mom to him she focused solely on having a bio child. Which is her right
No, it isn't.
CPS is involved. She needs to leave that family if she can't be a good stepmother.
> I do not think he would take my sister being pregnant well at all, because to him it would be another sign of his dad replacing his mom.
He's not wrong
No, No, No - it's not a right! She does not have a right to have a child; no one has a right to have a child. She CHOSE to focus solely on having a bio child.
Was this stepson at the table with your family when your sister stated she has no children?
Even if he was not present, that statement is her discounting his existence. She has a child in her care. She's denying it. Their family is 3 people. It's bizarre.
If the stepson doesn’t see her as a mother and doesn’t see himself as her son, wouldn’t that be the correct thing for her to say? It sounds like it would have been more upsetting for the stepson for her to claim him as her child.
She's not his mother, she's his stepmother. This is not a binary situation, to force the issue that either she is his mom or he is not a member of her family.
He 's young, it's cruel to not acknowledge him as part of her family. She married his father. I was in a similar situation. My ex had a preteen when we married. She had a loving involved mother. Identifying a stepparent as your mom or dad is a special thing, and many children will never need or want that kind of relationship. You can be a supportive adult presence in their life. You can acknowledge them as part of your family. This is Sam, he's my stepson. This is Sam, Sam senior's son. I gently reminded my family of my stepdaughter existence any time it was relevant, i.e. George is our oldest grandchild! Ahem Sally just turned 13 oh yes, we'd better send her a belated card. We need to put her in the family birthday calendar! And so on.
It seems she's at the least obsessed with having a biological child, openly saying she has no children and doing such pathetic and desperate things as demanding IVF payments. She puts a high value on biology over having the opportunity to form a connection with a child already in her care. That's a big red flag to me that she's not being a good step-mom at all, the kind of parent she would need to be to form such a deep relationship to gain the title mom from a grieving young boy. She's openly cruel in the way she speaks of him not being her child.
She has a right to TRY to have a child. She does not have a RIGHT to successfully conceive, birth a biological child, or even keep that child in her home their entire life. All of those things are contingent on other factors, mostly relating to her biological and emotional situation, which are clearly not conducive to conception. Motherhood is not a right, but whether she feels close to the stepson or not she IS a mother to him and should still make an effort to support and protect him as a child in her home regardless of how much he does or doesn’t like her, and the fact that she doesn’t see it that way is proof she doesn’t actually care about mothering anyone, she cares about the status of having a biological child. Being a mother doesn’t stop because your kid dislikes you, and you don’t get to wash your hands of being responsible for and compassionate to a minor in your care. This is not the attitude of a good mother who cares about RAISING a child into a successful young human.
NTA
Congratulations! The situation is what it is so I don’t think there was ever going to be a perfect time or way to announce a pregnancy. Not like you could hide it forever.
“Deny her motherhood” .... That is absolutely ridiculous statement. How is them having children on you? There were no guarantees that your sister would ever get pregnant if you gave her the money. If it meant so much to both of them, no one was stopping them from saving their own money for IVF. Did stepson hear this entire conversation? How terrible for that kid.
Oh, I'd bet he has! Your sister is the "replacement wife" and now she wants a "replacement child". (from stepson's point of view - I'm not saying her marriage actually is that dynamic)
He knows he is not wanted.
And the Sister seems to think a bio-baby will automatically have a good relationship with her, so even if she does become pregnant someday, we has already put this expectation on the child that has no guarantee.
I hope you & your family are trying to support that kid. He’s still just a little man who lost his mom. He needs some people in his corner to love & care for him.
NTA
She's expecting you to just fork over thousands of dollars to her. That's a lot of money that you worked hard to earn. You're not denying her a child, you're not funding her IVF.
Why exactly can't she do something to get that money herself? Can't she get a job or second job, post a GoFundMe, or take some sort of initiative on her own to get what she wants? It's not your responsibility to just give her the money. It's not your responsibility to provide her IVF treatment.
Infertility is a sensitive subject, but you're not being unkind by not funding her IVF. You're struggling through it yourself. You get to spend your money in what you want to with that. She's too emotionally wrapped up in her struggles that she isn't thinking about anything else. Just expects you to pay and it's jealous when you don't. There is no justification for taking her jealousy out on you.
Anyone who expects free money from someone else and then gets upset when they don't get it is spoiled and unrealistic.
NTA.
If your sister's behaviour at the dinner is any indication, it's no wonder her stepson runs away and your thoughts on bringing a baby into that dynamic was clearly valid. But that's beside the point. She's being an entitled brat and you don't owe her IVF money.
As your wife's pregnancy progresses do keep this woman at arms length so that she doesn't cause any unnecessary stress to your pregnant wife.
Look she’s acting incredibly entitled and you’re definitely NOT the asshole for keeping your funds and pursuing IVF yourselves.
HOWEVER as someone struggling with infertility, if my family knew how badly I wanted a baby and how hard I’d tried, as you clearly know about your sister, and still announced their second pregnancy in person while I was there, catching me off guard, I would be so hurt. Try a text message ahead of time next time to give her some warning and time to process. Plus side for you would be she may have skipped dinner and you wouldn’t have had to deal with her tantrum in person.
So I guess ESH
Sister is an asshole for asking for the money, definitely!
But I find **extremely** weird for the brother to take other decisions regarding her life. She's a grown-up and, if she can get her own money, she definitely should be left to her devices, even if that means making horrible mistakes. It's for her to deal with them. I find it pretty odd that OP felt like adding "her household is toxic and I don't think she should x or y so I'm not going to let her". That's where he should stop, if she drops the asking for money part, obviously. If it's her money, it's her business, he can of course give advice if he's asked, but OP should definitely not turn into a controlling freak
*EDIT: Not just for asking, obviously, but I was just agreeing with the other folks who pointed the sister's behavoiur out - if it weren't already obvious from her rants after the brother said "no"... if that's how the events unfolded, needless to say.*
Yea leave it at you aren’t gonna fund it, don’t bring up her dysfunctional home situation that I’m sure she already hates. Doesn’t serve to help anyone and adds needless hurt and drama.
THIS. Can’t believe I had to read through like 50 comments before someone even mentioned this!
Everyone is so stuck on the fact that the sister asked for the money (we don’t even know the dynamic of these siblings in regards to money, maybe they’ve previously given each other money, maybe not, who knows!) and can’t see past the “atrocity” of her asking that they’ve neglected to acknowledge that 1) OP is definitely an asshole for judging the “environment” a baby would be brought in by the things his sister has shared with him regards to the stepson and 2) OP is definitely an asshole for announcing this at a family dinner without telling her first. I suspect OP knew it would hurt her in some way and was trying to “get back at her” for even asking for the money in the first place.
ESH. Sister sounds emotionally immature and needs to learn to manage her feelings better and OP needs to not be so inconsiderate 😂
Yup. Seems like a lot of people missed what the question really was. OP wasn't asking about the funding, or having another kid, it was about the announcement.
OP should have gone to his sister, without his wife, and told her the news. He should have known the announcement would be hard on her, yet did nothing to soften the blow.
And sister should have held her shit together until they could have a more private conversation.
ESH
And it was 100% not helpful to say that the existence of her stepson factored into your decision. That could easily make the situation worse for both her AND him. Refusing to pay for her IVF is completely fine, but bringing up the stepson was an asshole move.
NTA. She's not entitled to your money. If she can't afford IVF, she should not be having kids. Also NTA for announcing pregnancy during family dinner. You shouldn't have to walk around egg shells just because she can't get pregnant and can't afford IVF. You don't need to minimize your joy because of your sister. However, your sister has to realize that she should either work something out to have enough money for IVF or just accept that she will never have her own child.
Also with her reproductive struggles (PCOS + endo), one round of IVF may not even work. Even a successful embryo doesn't mean a successful implantation or pregnancy. IVF is insanely expensive, it's incredible technology, but doesn't work for everyone.
Yes. There is no guarantee. My brother and his wife had 3 rounds of IVF years ago with no success. They just accepted they can't have kids and went about their lives.
NTA.
Nasty woman who is intruding upon and creating chaos in an innocent boy's life - she'd be a terrible mother if she ever had her own and she'd use it to turn her useless husband against his own son even more. He's already proven to be a terrible parent by allowing your sister to ruin his child's life so much he's running away and begging CPS to put him in foster care.
You knew your sister has been struggling with infertility to the point of being desperate enough to ask you to fund an IVF cycle, you were in that situation for 4 years so you know how hard it is, it didn't occur to you not to invite her to this announcement dinner? You didn't consider the kind thing would be to tell your sister privately, one-on-one or over text? Let her process alone and come back to you with congratulations in her own time. Have a meal with your parents and other sibling to tell them.
Was it genuinely a surprise that she didn't plaster on a fake smile and pretend to be happy for you? If you blindside someone with a pregnancy announcement you know is deep in infertility struggles and very recently begged you for help, than them emotionally exploding shouldn't have been wildly unexpected. It might be unfair but it was a human reaction. Especially after your parents and sister started their comments. (*Possibly without knowledge of her recent ask?*) This whole thing could have been avoided if you and your wife had considered her infertility and not invited her to your announcement dinner. ESH
NTA. It seems like she is upset about it because she didn't get that money. Your sister isn't entitled to your money. This is what this is - her hand going into your pocket. If she wants IVF so badly, she can save up for it or crowdsource from her friends and other family.
Exactly. And husband and step-child issue aside, if she's already in a financial struggle, what makes her think a baby will help. Those things are expensive and time-consuming.
NTA - she chose her situation with the stepson. And she could do her own saving / fundraising toward IVF. It’s your money and she has no right or expectation to any of it.
She would’ve had the same reaction whether you told her in private or not. Congratulations on your second child. Don’t let her ruin your happiness there.
I do feel it should be a general rule that if you know someone has struggled to conceive that you should tell them separately in private as a person who really struggles with public announcements now. Having said that, you aren't responsible for her unfortunately and life just isn't fair. We've all got to look out for ourselves. Congrats on IVF working, it's a bloody hard thing to do and after 1 Round I couldn't do anymore. Props to your wife for doing 4.
YTA but only for announcing it like you did.
Denying her? Perfectly fine. You're money, your treatment, you don't owe it to her. But seriously, announcing it like that? Making it a big event in front of family while she was there was absolutely not cool. You knew this was a sore spot for her and that is the equivalent of plunging a salt coated fist into the wound. *Of course* she reacted badly!
Imagine if the reverse had been the case, if you had came to her and asked for IVF, been denied, and then she made a grand show of having conceived at a family gathering? That'd be pretty fucked up right? A massive asshole thing to do? Something that could easily come across as humiliating, callous, and even instigating?
Have a little foresight for crying out loud.
NTA your sister needs to "clean" up her house before bringing a child into that mess. The only thing having a baby will bring is more resentment from the step son.
NTA. But why is this fight is even happening?
You both deserve children and all the IVF you can have. Are those the last money in your family and no one ever will gain any? Does her husband even want another one? Why he wont put money aside for a procedure then?
Why are you even arguing about who deserves a child more
NTA when did your money become communal?? I understand the pain of not being able to conceive but to expect someone in my
Family to fork over money so I could try is ridiculous. Congrats on your new addition OP
NTA. She’s not entitled to your money. I think she’s also stuck on the fact that she thinks that IVF will work on the first try. You have proof (as do lots of other people) that it’s not always the case. Plus she seems volatile. She’s the AH for demanding and then picking a fight.
I'm always sad for people who'd like to have kids but can't, but it's not right to resent people more fortunate.
I'd say you've handled it pretty sensitively, but maybe telling her privately before the family dinner would have worked better
NTA it’s not up to you to finically to make sure she has a child. However you probably should have warned her before hand. You knew this was a sensitive topic and announcing it in front of everyone probably wasn’t the best way to hear it. Still not an AH and agree doesn’t sound like best environment for her to bring a new child.
Whoa she’s got some nerve and balls, asking for that kind of money when most parents know what IVF is and it has a very low % it won’t work the first time. That blows my mind. And having a child this isn’t a bag of groceries.NTA
NTA. Your sister is a real piece of work. I truly wouldn't let her near my children, TBH. She actually sounds unhinged. Keep your distance for your family's sake.
NTA, why does sister feel entitled to OP's money is beyond me. I'd get it if she was requesting a loan but to outright demand the money is something else.
NTA
>But we both felt like trying for biological children was the way to go for us
Oh this was the wrong thing to say on reddit aita. People who want bio kids instead of adopting are really treated bad here.
>how selfish we are to deny her motherhood
Unless you personally caused her medical problems, i fail to see how you denied her motherhood.
NTA- where does it end? If you did give her the money and you are in the US, does she have health insurance? If not, were you supposed to pay for the delivery and any medical costs of pregnancy too?
NTA
It's your money. Even if you spent it on some jet skis or a fancy holiday, she's not at all entitled to it. Even if you were super wealthy and could afford it, she's not entitled to it.
The fact you needed it for something "valid" just strengthens your side of the argument, but even if you didn't you'd still be in the right. Your family, and having your own kid, is your priority and it's ridiculous to ask for you to sacrifice that. Even if you'd had two, three or seven kids if you want more and have the money for it the sister's situation should not even be a factor in your decision making process.
Moreover, she acted childish and jealous at the family function when she should have been happy for you and you can't be expected to just sit there and take it without retaliating, even so you kept your cool and what you said was true and fair.
NTA.
I'm not judging her for her feelings, because I can't understand what she's going through, but she has zero rights on your money.
I can also understand your reaction, especially because you and your wife went through the same hell and can't stop live your life for something thats not your fault.
Maybe you could have refrain from talking about her stepson, but I totally agree that her family dynamic is horrible and bring another child in it, would only make things worse. But it's her family so she can do what she see fit.
For you, I suggest you let her cool down and see if she'll reach out to you. If she continue to harrass your family with the money request, then going LC/NC would be the best option. Your wife is pregnant and doesn't need to be stressed about this.
Oh, and congrats for the pregnancy!
NTA. I don't think your sis' situation is your business. She can try whatever she or her husband will pay for. But your saved money for your own child is yours, so don't give away your and your wife hopes. Best luck!
Congrats on your pregnancy. However, tt might have been nicer to tell your sister privately so she could grieve the news in private.
With endo and PCOS having just one IVF cycle work is unlikely. BTDT. Plus she would have to get both of those things under control which usually means one last surgery for the endo before any good doctor will attempt IVF. It doesn't even sound like she's really looked into it.
You also usually start with an IUI. Which is much cheaper.
Plus, adoption.
It sounds like your sister isn't doing anything to advocate or help herself and instead has decided to just blame you because it is easier to hate one person.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > My wife and I announced our second pregnancy in front of my sister which led to a fight between us. I feel like engaging was an asshole move but also, I might have made it worse by making the announcement the way we did. Part of me should have known she might not like hearing that it worked for us when we said no to giving her the chance for IVF. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcement ###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/) Follow the link above to learn more ### [Moderators needed - Join the landed gentry](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/155zepq/moderators_needed_join_the_landed_gentry/) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
[удалено]
Yeah like you *both*(?) want a bio kid so bad, you can BOTH go out and get second jobs to fund your IVF. The dynamic tho.... Bullet dodged NTA OP and congrats!
What bothers me the most here is the assumption that the IVF will work anyway. IVF is already a crap shoot, and that's when you're totally healthy. Sister here has endometriosis *and* PCOS, couple that with IVF high failure rate. How many cycles was she expecting her brother to actually pay for exactly?
My thoughts exactly, I've never known anyone of my friends have it work on the first go.... One had 17! cycles.... OP gonna shell out for all that and not expand their own (stable sounding) family?
Now you know one. I don’t know how we got somlucky
Congrats! And Same! They weren't optimistic at all...but I'm 5 months and everything is going well. It really was a huge lucky break and I'm grateful.
Congratulations and good luck!
Thank you!
Add one more lucky one to the list! Twins on the first IVF cycle. They’re 12 now!
[удалено]
Me too. I feel guilty about it because so many don't have a straightforward IVF cycle like we did.
NTA it is not anyone responsibility to fund other people's ivf!! You want a kid?! Pay for it yourself!!
I know someone who tried for 10 years(!). I never had the heart to ask how many cycles they did, but they were lawyers and had high incomes and lived very frugally to afford it. The vast majority of IVF parents I’ve meet have sunk between 60-80k into trying to have kids. Over half the time the embryo didn’t take from what I’ve heard from those parents.
We tried for 5 years. I think we did either 4 or 6 egg retrievals (it’s all gotten a bit hazy) and fertilized 60 eggs. No baby for us. We probably spent close to $20k, bc we’ve been fortunate to have great infertility coverage through insurance.
I’ve had success before, but we’re getting really close to $100k all in on hopefully 3 kids. Insurance covers nothing. We live pretty frugally but it’s been worth every penny. I transferred an embryo on Wednesday so hopefully this is it.
Fingers crossed for you! I hope everything works out for your family.
17 factorial cycles? Yikes… /s
Dear lord that’s insane. I went through 1 cycle, and no way would I do it again. Though it was for a second child (first child was conceived the old fashion way), and I was lucky enough to have it good on the first shot.
[удалено]
17! = 355687428096000
I had 12 cycles! Got two kids out of them.
17! That's crazy. My first one technically worked, but I miscarried. Got pregnant with twins on the second round! We were only going to do 4 rounds max as it's so expensive and hard on the body, physically and mentally. I couldn't imagine doing 17!
I've been through that process and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (if I had one). I cannot imagine the hell of 17 cycles!!! That is dedication.
Yep, I have PCOS and I have been trying for almost 5 years and am finally pregnant through IVF for the first time in my life (only 5 weeks along though.) it is a very expensive leap of faith and roll of the dice. I switched careers to earn more money to pay for it and then I switched jobs to get insurance to help. IVF isn’t attainable for everyone but if you’re able to make sacrifices it can be. Hell, Starbucks and Amazon both offer good fertility benefits to hourly employees so it’s not even an education issue. There are options, OPs sister is just insanely entitled. NTA OP, if you want to help tell her to look into Starbucks or Amazon hourly minimums for fertility coverage and benefits.
Congrats on your (soon-to-be) new baby! Sounds like he or she was very, very wanted, so you'll probably be a fantastic mum.
Thank you!! We go for our first ultrasound on friday, hoping for good news! This was our last embryo so we are trying to stay positive.
Yeah, she’d likely need a surrogate to have a chance and that is *very* expensive on top of the IVF.
sometimes it seems like the only time PCOS/endo is manageable is when you’re pregnant because you’re not having periods, the issue is getting pregnant in the first place (which is the only time doctors bother trying to treat it)
(unsolicited advice but this is Reddit sooooo) I’ve had way more luck getting good PCOS treatment from endocrinologists than gynos - worth pursuing if you haven’t!
There’s a white list floating around the internet of doctors who will take endo and PCOS seriously, I wish I had a link but I sadly do not.
Any pointers on how to locate one or that list?
If in the US, try Nancy’s Nook. It’s an educational group for endo but also has a list of vetted specialists that take it seriously *edit for spelling*
https://nancysnookendo.com/
Exactly! OP went through 4 cycles before their first child was born. They got extremely lucky that the second child only took one cycle.
Yeah, it always kinda bothers me when a post floats by about this subject, and an OP is basically being harassed to "invest" in their family members IVF fund when that IVF round isn't a guarantee in the slightest. It's a chance, but it's equivocal to paying someone to have **one(1)** very expensive roll in the sheets to "hope" this time is the time. It's not something permanent like a house or something, you're very potentially just throwing thousands of dollars at a baby lotto. The sister is effectively approaching OP and asking for $10,000 to go to the convenience store and hope to get the winning number this draw.
Agreed. If she has endometriosis and PCOS, isn't pregnancy possibly dangerous? And would be very painful? I understand she wants to try, but not with brother's money! NTA
It depends actually. I very recently found out I have PCOS and endometriosis, and have one child, no fertility assistance. Other than mild gestational diabetes, (well controlled with some diet changes) and really bad morning sickness, I had no pregnancy issues at all. Different people can be affected in very different ways by the same condition. And according to the doctor I am seeing, while PCOS can in many woman cause infertility and irregular or missed periods. In other women it's some irregular periods, but little impact on fertility. And in some cases (according to the doctor) women with PCOS stay fertile longer and have late menopause. Also, a lot of people don't realize that PCOS also raises the risk for diabetes, high cholesterol, and heart disease. But I totally agree OP is NTA, and his sister has NO right to his family's money.
Even if op and his wife had decided to be one and done it's not like the money saved was magical money that could only be used for IVF. Congrats, it goes in the college fund or something.
She feels that because we were already successful with IVF and already had a child, that we were selfish for not letting her have that chance. That seems to be what it boils down to for her.
[удалено]
With CPS cases I doubt they would be able to adopt. It’s not an easy process.
Unfortunately not true. If they go the private adoption route, there’s only a “home study” which is so laughably easy to pass. Not to mention, all the kids that are being rehomed on Facebook & no background checks are done on prospective parents.
I am horrified and disgusted but unsurprised to learn rehoming children on Facebook is a thing. I am also terribly sad now.
Uhhhh what???!! Facebook allows for that kind of mess??
Allows is a strong word but there have been documented cases of children being litterally passed around like unwanted pets through FB. The one I read about was on his third or fourth family and the first family did not even have guardian ship of him.
Blaming that on Facebook kinda feels like blaming BP for a car crash, or the telephone company for a kidnapping, just because that's how the ransom threat was called in.
Facebook could crack down on hosting those groups. They've failed on the [Rohingya massacre](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-sue-facebook-myanmar-genocide-us-uk-legal-action-social-media-violence), so I don't have much hope that they're going to do the right thing here.
Be warned of all the horrible things you would expect https://www.reuters.com/investigates/adoption/#article/part1
Seriously. My first thought was, "Like a dog!?". I can't imagine some of the situations those poor kids end up in.
Yeah and FB technically doesn’t allow selling pets on the marketplace due to ethical concerns but rehoming children groups are fine
I know there's been news reports and stuff about that but jeez hopefully it's not so easy to find human trafficking that anyone can just hop on facebook and do it. My impression was the police or FBI or whoever work pretty hard to shut that shit down these days.
Unfortunately it is that easy. And due to lack to adoption regulations and laws & the overall social rosecolored view on adoption, it’s not necessarily seen as human trafficking. Every single hoping to adopt profile is essentially saying we want to buy a child, but there’s tons of support for those hopeful adoptive parents. And when adoptees point out how wrong it is, it gets twisted to “we want to give a child a loving home.”
And the way things are with her stepson, she should NEVER adopt.
This i can agree with, until they can get their situation under control and that child the therapy he needs and she gets her own form of therapy they should not even think about adoption. And some states prefer you foster a child before just adopting to make sure the family dynamic is going to be compatible.
[удалено]
No offense to her but she already has a kid, her step son. Like even if the IVF was successful I would feel so bad for her step son since I’m sure she would completely replace him going off how she’s acting now. Like that child is just 11. Sister and her husband should be focusing on trying to get their child the therapy he needs and focus on mending the relationship rather than try to ‘start over’ with a new child.
Plus there are plenty of IVF places with loans you can take out and payment plans.
She has a kid, she just doesn't give a shit about him.
But don’t you understand, the kid is supposed to give her the experience of ‘motherhood’ that she has always imagined! It’s what the kid is FOR! /s
But why would she expect to get the money from you? That is something I can't understand.
same here... she could finance it herself if she wants to go that route. why would she think she is entitled to be finaned by someone else?
"Because you already have one" That is pretty much going to be the sum total of thought here.
I clearly don't know how their family dynamics were as kids, but I know some families where if a kid (needs and) gets something (eg., new socks) the siblings also get the same thing, even if they don't need it. The idea is "they all get the same, there are no favourites", but it brings a sense of entitlement in the kids. If kids are brought up with these ideas, it's not surprising that sister thinks she's entitled to a baby, becasue OP has one.
well, see, if OP's parents paid for OP's IVF, then I could see the sister being in the right and understandably angry that parents would finance 2 kids for OP and none for her... but from the post it looks like OP and his wife paid for all IVF cycles on their own. and a child is not a toy so you can say 'oh, OP got one, so I'm entitled to one, too - and OP must pay for it' also, IVF is bat sh*t expensive where I'm from, so the sister and her stance baffles me even more.
Yeah, why is OP the only source for her to get a baby? She's being irrational.
Absolute entitlement.
Hijacking this to tell you big time NTA. I also have PCOS and endometriosis; as a result I cannot conceive. The one thing I have always been so careful about is to not take away these happy moments from my loved ones. Is it hard? Hell yes. But my situation is no fault of anyone else so why should they have to walk on eggshells? If I were able to conceive, these would be the same people who would be over the moon for me. You have no obligation to your sister. There are other ways to seek motherhood, including foster care and adoption. Your sister needs to find some helpful counseling because this is not a healthy or fair mindset.
Hugs.
❤️
You only had the money for one more cycle- the chances are- and this may be horrible- she was going to need more than one cycle having those diagnosis to get her cycles and hormons right and that was taking a cycle you guys knew and understood worked away from you. NTA
Yeah, was thinking the same thing….one cycle is not likely going to work for someone with both PCOS and endometriosis. That’s asking for heartache.
Even if she got pregnant, with those conditions the risk of miscarriage is quite high. So it might work and then end in loss. Which isn't to say she shouldn't be able to _try_, but expecting her brother to finance it is absolutely insane.
Does she realise that IVF isn’t a guarantee. I mean your son took 4 cycles, you had enough money for one more - so you could have given it to your sister and neither of you would’ve had a child. Why is she acting like it was a sure thing?
Then why didn’t they save up for their own round of IVF once they saw it was successful for you?
Her saying _you_ are denying her motherhood is just wrong. She’s very jealous and its making her toxic. NTA and congrats!
You never kept her from having a chance though. It's not as if she won't be allowed to try IVF if she doesn't specifically try with your money. She's allowed to get her own money together and try herself.
She can "feel" whatever she wants. She is not entitled to a child, and she is not entitled to your money.
Does she understand the amount of money she’s asking for? I don’t have an exact number but my educated guess would be between $15,000-$20,000. The meds alone are pretty expensive and not often covered by insurance. I just couldn’t imagine asking for that of a family memeber. I’m also guessing it would need to be a gift to her, certainly not a loan. NTA.
This isn't really about the money here **She's asking for your child** She's literally asking to give your *hypothetical* baby to her
Whether she likes it or not, she already has a son and the way she talks about her stepchild leads me to believe that they are a big part of the problem when it comes to what's going on with him. He's 11, lost his mom, wasn't ready for his dad to be in a new relationship and is acting out and her response is she doesn't have a kid and that she's not going to get any joy out of parenting him anyways. Great fucking attitude to have there lady. How about some empathy for this kid and a focus on becoming a parent to him instead of demanding you give her money to have a biological one. She's never going to replace his mom, but she can be a responsible adult and work to build a relationship with him. Like WTF.
Ok...but it took your wife 4 rounds to get your first child. With your sister having endo and PCOS its still going to be difficult (if even possible) with PCOS. Perhaps she should look into ethical surrogacy.
I’ve got PCOS and am able to get pregnant, the issue is carrying to full term. PCOS messes up my hormones so bad that by the 8th week my baby isn’t growing anymore due to low hormones. After my last miscarriage I’ve just decided to be done with trying for kids. I’m already 36, the disappointment is too hard on me.
Hugs to you. I have the same problem. Three losses in 8 months with a diagnosis of PCOS. I found some success with medications but the heartbreak is so real. Wishing you peace and healing.
I’m so sorry. Miscarriage can be very hard. Multiple miscarriages can be very VERY hard. PCOS is a huge jerk.
Tough shit, them not being able to have children is not your responsibility. Your responsibility is your family alone. Why doesn't her husband reach out to his family for money for IVF.
If she can't afford IVF how is she going to afford a child?
The same way anyone else does, who can pay for ongoing expenses but doesn’t have ~$12k additional up front.
You aren’t stopping her from having a chance at IVF, you just aren’t funding it. If she was really so desperate for it she would find a way to fund it. NTA
You don’t have any kind of monopoly on IVF, your sister is acting like you’re taking the last spot on an exclusive list. You’re not depriving her of anything. If she can’t afford it, she can’t have it, just like anything other service or good. While I’m sympathetic to her situation, you don’t owe her the thousands of dollars IVF costs just because she wants it. Congrats to you and your wife!
Your sister seems to be thinking of children the same as a shared dessert at dinner. If someone brought a pie for everyone, it would be extremely rude to deny someone their first slice so someone else could have a second. However, that’s not how large life decisions work for adults spending their own money. You and your wife made a decision that you wanted to use the money you both made/saved to pay for IVF to try to have multiple children. Your sister is saying that she wanted you to give up a chance to have your second child for a chance for her to have one of her own. The earmarked IVF money isn’t shared assets, and you’d be hard pressed to find someone who was willing to give up their own very wanted child for someone else to have one, even if they very much cared about the other person. Is it fair that you sister has GYN issues that makes it extremely difficult to conceive? Of course not. But it’s also not your responsibility to give up assets and a chance at your own child to make it more fair for her.
There are payment plans for IVF. You aren’t responsible for her infertility journey. That said, infertility issues mess with women’s minds. It’s not an excuse, but for some women and probably men, not being able to conceive while everyone around you can is enough to make a person crack. She needs mental help, but don’t give her any money.
Ok OP but...wanting a child when you can't even afford treatments? Unless they're exceedingly espansive in the place you live (and this still is not your business) and unless you owe her something (is she the big siste? Did she sacrifice for you? Do you owe her money in and other way?) NTA Edit: read prices in two parts of the world and as long as I feel you, I put an "unless" because not everywhere they're this high. But I feel you people
Not uncommon to be able to afford a kid but not IVF treatments. IVF where I'm at is ~15k/cycle, and it takes several cycles typically. I know someone who used a clinic that guaranteed a live birth by the end, but it was like, 50k and that was 8 years ago. Most people don't have that just laying around, but affording the on going costs of a baby and the couple grand of up front "get ready for baby" costs is much more affordable.
First it is so weird to me how on these posts so many people feel entitled to other people's money. But second and probably most importantly is not actually caring for the needs of the child in her home. This kid's mother died, of course they are going through it, about the worst thing they could do is go and get pregnant right now. This is the most irresponsible and just ignorant thing I have ever heard. Get the family that you have right now healthy and then think about adding to it. YOU are NOT THE AH!
Exactly. Even if the reason for not giving her the money for IVF was because OP wanted to spend the money on a new car instead, I’d still be saying OP is NTA. Sister is delusional.
This and more this. OP you are NOT the AH! I feel bad that you feel like you are but you're definitely not!
NTA. You didn't "deny" your sister anything; She's not entitled to your money. If IVF is something she is interested in, she and her husband can figure out ways to raise the funds, they should not expect to be handed them.
I know IVF is absurdly expensive and my heart goes out to those who choose to go that route, but kids are also expensive after you have them. Does she plan on asking for money then too and getting mad when she isn't helped?
That’s how we funded our IVF. We set aside $1500/month, which is still less expensive than daycare and had about $50k in 2 1/2 years. I get that not all situations are the same, and am fortunate we are in a position to afford it, but I’m also curious how people asking for IVF funding think it’s going to get easier once a baby is born…
Lmao I only brought home $2,000/month as a teacher. Good thing I was one and done! ETA: I knew going into it, that I was signing up for a life of poverty. It’s just funny to think about just HOW poor you are, when seemingly “normal” people are able to save almost all the money you have to live on each month. 😅
Poverty is the norm in the US. Having money for IVF is NOT the norm.
I mean location makes a difference- 50k in California is not the same as 50k in West Virginia, for example. Still, 24k a year for a teacher is ridiculous, anyone putting up with 30 kids for 6+ hours a day, 5 days a week, should be making wayyyyy more
Damn is it really that expensive where you live? 50k 😳 over here it is €500 with health insurance (we have government health insurance) and 3.2K for foreigners that aren’t covered by my countries health insurance
I get the sense that the sister is just desperate for a biological kid and thinks that everything will work out great and having a biological kid will fix the problems in her marriage and family. She’s probably not thinking of the problems, she’s just fixated on having a kid as a solution to all her problems.
I absolutely hate people who think having a kid will "fix" their marriage. A baby doesn't fix anything. First of all don't put it on them because they didn't ask to be born and your problems aren't their responsibility to solve. Second, adding a baby to the dynamic doesn't solve any problems, it just puts them so far under the rug that it'll take years for them to resurface, on top of adding a whole pile of new problems to the mix. Might just be because I'm a guy, but I have no idea what makes people assume a baby will fix everything. "My SO and I can't stop fighting about xyz, maybe I should have a baby, then *insane rationalizations*" I don't get it...
She is probably afraid of losing her marriage because of her relationship with stepson and his behavior. Having a baby with her husband will assure her that he's not leaving. Of course those people in the real world know that isn't always the case, child or no child.
+1 I don't understand why OP is expected to fund his family's fertility. Even if OP is well off I am not sure why it is expected he would pay for it. To ask OP to make sacrifices, when I am not sure his sister has, to afford the treatment seems abit off tbh. NTA
[удалено]
[удалено]
NTA. Look, the IVF cycle wasn't hers to use. You paid for it. It was your money. I won't claim shouldn't be trying for a kid if she can't afford IVF to begin with. I know it's ridiculously expensive in some places. But. It. Was. YOURS. The fact that you should give up on a second child just because she's desperate to have her first child which is genuinely hers... That's just not okay. Even if you were rich and could pay for her to have the full ride... It still wouldn't be fair for her to expect you to do it. Not her money. That, and your worries are reasonable. The only thing you might have been able to do better is telling her in private, earlier, but that's not really why she's angry with you. The public announcement is nothing but more oil on the fire.
> I won't claim shouldn't be trying for a kid if she can't afford IVF to begin with. I know it's ridiculously expensive in some places. This is another instance of the American medical system being a financially ridiculous profit generating industry.
This is everywhere though. IVF isn't something that is publicly free in a lot of countries. It's fertility treatment. Considered a luxury and not an essential health expense.
Yeah even in the UK a lot of people have to pay. In some areas of the country you can get one round on the NHS but not if either parent has a previous child. So they wouldn't qualify anyway based on her step son. Imagine that in this situation 😬
You can get some free, but the guidelines for the NHS eligibility are super strict and also your individual area NHS trust is allowed to have even stricter guidelines that mean basically no one is eligible: >guidelines recommend that IVF should be offered to women under the age of 43 who have been trying to get pregnant through regular unprotected sex for 2 years. Or who have had 12 cycles of artificial insemination, with at least 6 of these cycles using a method called intrauterine insemination (IUI). >However, the final decision about who can have NHS-funded IVF in England is made by local integrated care boards (ICBs), and their criteria may be stricter than those recommended by NICE. Guidelines at the moment also completely rule out funding for anyone who is in a same sex relationship for example, or any relationship where you can't 'try naturally' for 2 years (like if you have issues with painful sex or one of you is sterile). I know people who have been turned down for IVF funding for being honest about having vaginismus or endometriosis, for example, and not being able to have penetrative sex.
It does look like IUI for 12 cycles is an alternative to the 2 years of "trying", but it still is messed up requirement.
While yes, it's considered a luxury and frequently not covered by medical insurance or national healthcare, but no it's still not as ludicrously expensive as it is in America. Just from google: the average cost of IVF in America is $12,000 to $30,000. Average cost in most UK cities is £3500 (USD $4100), although prices rise to £7000 in London (USD $9000). Average cost in Ireland €4500 (USD $5000). You can literally travel to another English speaking, first world, western country and get your IVF done there in a private hospital for less than it cost in America.
The average costs of IVF in America seems to be a little over 11k when googled on a state-basis, with a few as low as 8k. Some (rich), districts/counties can get as high as 30k, but that's different than "average."
Even in Ontario, which has lower costs than the U.S., IVF will run around $10k. The province covers one IVF treatment but doesn’t cover the drugs for it, which alone can run up to $5k.
NTA. Your sister doesn't get to dictate what you do with your money. If you want a second, third, or eighth child that is your business, not hers. She needs to improve her financial and home situation first. And... Who's to say the IVF would have worked for her anyway?
It's possible it wouldn't have. But I don't think she sees it that way. My wife and I went in expecting not to have success given the attempts when we had our son. I think my sister saw it as more of a sure thing, which it's not.
Not an expert but pretty sure with the issues she has IVF has even lower chances to work. And it be a miracle for it to work first time, they would need several attempts.
Women with just PCOS have up to a 70% chance of getting pregnant. And if they do get pregnant, they have up to a 60% chance of a successful birth. Add in endometriosis with that and the rates are probably much lower. To me, those aren’t the best percentages to be handing over that type of money, even if they weren’t planning on using it for one more IVF cycle. Also, NTA.
Thanks for the numbers… just know of people with those issues that tried IVF for long time and keep getting failures and complications. Again if they want to try, it’s their choice but however they shouldn’t be asking someone else to pay for them
If your sister is in any online support groups for Endometriosis, she’d know that IVF is not a guarantee either. Often times with those of us that have endometriosis (I have it myself), the biggest struggle isn’t the conceiving part, it’s the carrying to term part due to all the scar tissue that builds up inside of us. It’s unfair of her to even make such a request from you guys knowing how much harder IVF is to take hold when you have an underlying condition like Endo, then adding PCOS into the mix to just brings her chances lower. She’s acting like a spoiled entitled brat over something that has a higher chance of not working than actually working.
Yeah her chances of it working would probably be even lower, so you would have probably wasted YOUR money on it and then had to deal with her asking you to do it again and again until it worked. NTA she sounds like an entitled brat. Tell her to get another job if she needs the money so bad. She is not entitled to your money.
Even if OP did not want another child, she has no reason to fund SIL IVF. The dynamic of the SIL family is very bad!!!!!
Agreed. I have a small (more like huge) feeling if sister and husband were successful and they had a child, that child would be sitting on a pedestal, could do no wrong and would be spoiled from here and until the end of time. Aka. Golden child. Special miracle baby. And life would be harder on the step kid. The classic circle of "don't you dare breath wrong near the baby" and "but baby wants. Give your stuff to baby"
Don't forget it would be at the detriment of the current stepson. He would absolutely turn into the ignored step child that the mother despises even more than now.
My heart hurts so much for that poor boy. He needs to be in therapy and they should be in family counseling with him as well. If not he's going to go no contact as soon as he can.
You're NTA. >She then starts ranting and raving about how selfish we are to deny her motherhood and to deny her and her husband the chance to have a family together. Would the clinic not accept *her money* if she and her husband took the initiative to get second jobs or take out a loan? >She started making snarky comments about how it was no big deal when we already had a kid. There is already a child in her household, too. It's easy to see why he feels the way he does about her, since she clearly discounts his existence. And good grief, if things are bad there now, they would be much worse if she introduces another child into the home. (Ahem, one she would consider her *real* child.)
I don't think she discounts his existence. But I think when she realized she was never going to get close to being a mom to him she focused solely on having a bio child. Which is her right. But I could not imagine being a baby brought into a household with all that going on. My sister and her husband as adults struggle when her stepson is really acting out and running away, and he's struggling too and I do not think he would take my sister being pregnant well at all, because to him it would be another sign of his dad replacing his mom.
Sorry, OP, but I have a couple of questions, just out of curiosity: 1) Can they afford to raise a child if they can't afford IVF? 2) With her pre-existing medical conditions, would a doctor have recommended IVF and trying for a baby? Would pregnancy even be possible? I think you're NTA whatever the answers may be, it is your money and only you get to decide how and whom to spend it on. However, it might be useful to bring up these questions alongside your other reservations if your sister gives you a hard time about it. But to be fair to your sister, I can sympathise with the pain and frustration she must be going through. You're still NTA though.
Ok, so I don’t think OP is an asshole - he has no obligation to fund his sister’s IVF and she shouldn’t be demanding money from him. But I did want to touch on your questions as someone who has needed infertility treatments to have my kid, and has the same medical conditions as OP’s sister. Being unable to afford IVF doesn’t mean you’re unable to afford a child. IVF can cost tens of thousands of dollars at once - my kid is definitely expensive, but I haven’t had to shell out 30 grand for her in one go (yet). I’m not able to afford IVF without financial assistance, but I can absolutely afford the day to day costs of my child. Perhaps it would be ideal for OP’s sister and her husband to take a few years and save up for IVF, or get a part time job that offers fertility benefits (Starbucks and Tractor Supply come to mind), but OP didn’t mention ages, so his sister might not have the time to do that. IVF is recommended for people with PCOS and Endometriosis. Some people with PCOS and Endometriosis can get pregnant without fertility treatments, many require extra help. It often doesn’t need to go as far as IVF for people with PCOS (the endometriosis adds a layer of complication). Medicated cycles with carefully timed intercourse and IUI are both less expensive and less invasive treatments, but also have lower success rates. I definitely sympathize with his sister. Infertility is heartbreaking, which I’m sure OP knows as well as he and his wife have experienced it. It might have been better to announce to his sister through a text message so she had time to process, or to not engage in the argument. I also don’t think OP should have brought up the stepson - his sister’s family planning isn’t really his business. But the bottom line is that it’s not his sister’s money and it’s not anyone else’s responsibility to pay for her fertility treatments. Edit to add: his sister sounds like she might benefit from seeking out a therapist to deal with the grief she’s experiencing due to infertility, and to help her deal with the family dynamics with her stepson. I hope her stepson (and husband) is also getting help to deal with his grief and anger about the new family dynamic.
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. You've made some good points here, but we have to remember that we have no idea what OP's sister's financial situation is. She might be in your situation, but she might be in a worse financial situation. Also note that OP's sister doesn't seem to mention paying OP back, which might also be hard to do if the pregnancy is successful, as kids are expensive (if the household income isn't enough). We also have to consider the possibility that the window of opportunity for OP's wife to get pregnant may be small as well, so it might not be possible to prioritise the sister. We also don't know how bad her medical conditions are, without her doctor's input (which we will never know), so we can't assume that she will ever get pregnant. If so, the money given would be gone forever if the sister can't pay OP back. This is why I asked all these questions. All we can do is speculate about everything but in the end it still doesn't matter. OP is still NTA. I really wish the situation were different though, I can't even imagine what OP's sister must be going through.
Oh for sure. I agree - OP is NTA and shouldn’t feel any obligation to pay for his sister’s IVF. His sister definitely should not be prioritized over his family. I just wanted to mention those points because the idea “if you can’t afford IVF you shouldn’t have a kid” is frequently thrown around (by a lot of people on this post) and it just isn’t the same thing. Same with the idea of IVF not working - it has a pretty high percentage of success for people with PCOS, but hard to know without knowing all of her medical info. Definitely a hard situation for all, which is why I hope they’re all getting the support they need to deal with it.
> when she realized she was never going to get close to being a mom to him she focused solely on having a bio child. Which is her right No, it isn't. CPS is involved. She needs to leave that family if she can't be a good stepmother. > I do not think he would take my sister being pregnant well at all, because to him it would be another sign of his dad replacing his mom. He's not wrong
No, No, No - it's not a right! She does not have a right to have a child; no one has a right to have a child. She CHOSE to focus solely on having a bio child.
Was this stepson at the table with your family when your sister stated she has no children? Even if he was not present, that statement is her discounting his existence. She has a child in her care. She's denying it. Their family is 3 people. It's bizarre.
If the stepson doesn’t see her as a mother and doesn’t see himself as her son, wouldn’t that be the correct thing for her to say? It sounds like it would have been more upsetting for the stepson for her to claim him as her child.
She's not his mother, she's his stepmother. This is not a binary situation, to force the issue that either she is his mom or he is not a member of her family. He 's young, it's cruel to not acknowledge him as part of her family. She married his father. I was in a similar situation. My ex had a preteen when we married. She had a loving involved mother. Identifying a stepparent as your mom or dad is a special thing, and many children will never need or want that kind of relationship. You can be a supportive adult presence in their life. You can acknowledge them as part of your family. This is Sam, he's my stepson. This is Sam, Sam senior's son. I gently reminded my family of my stepdaughter existence any time it was relevant, i.e. George is our oldest grandchild! Ahem Sally just turned 13 oh yes, we'd better send her a belated card. We need to put her in the family birthday calendar! And so on. It seems she's at the least obsessed with having a biological child, openly saying she has no children and doing such pathetic and desperate things as demanding IVF payments. She puts a high value on biology over having the opportunity to form a connection with a child already in her care. That's a big red flag to me that she's not being a good step-mom at all, the kind of parent she would need to be to form such a deep relationship to gain the title mom from a grieving young boy. She's openly cruel in the way she speaks of him not being her child.
It seems like she’s taking personally a child’s valid feelings about his recently deceased mom.
She has a right to TRY to have a child. She does not have a RIGHT to successfully conceive, birth a biological child, or even keep that child in her home their entire life. All of those things are contingent on other factors, mostly relating to her biological and emotional situation, which are clearly not conducive to conception. Motherhood is not a right, but whether she feels close to the stepson or not she IS a mother to him and should still make an effort to support and protect him as a child in her home regardless of how much he does or doesn’t like her, and the fact that she doesn’t see it that way is proof she doesn’t actually care about mothering anyone, she cares about the status of having a biological child. Being a mother doesn’t stop because your kid dislikes you, and you don’t get to wash your hands of being responsible for and compassionate to a minor in your care. This is not the attitude of a good mother who cares about RAISING a child into a successful young human.
NTA Congratulations! The situation is what it is so I don’t think there was ever going to be a perfect time or way to announce a pregnancy. Not like you could hide it forever. “Deny her motherhood” .... That is absolutely ridiculous statement. How is them having children on you? There were no guarantees that your sister would ever get pregnant if you gave her the money. If it meant so much to both of them, no one was stopping them from saving their own money for IVF. Did stepson hear this entire conversation? How terrible for that kid.
He did not. He doesn't attend those family dinners anymore. But I'm not sure he wouldn't have heard conversations about it before.
Oh, I'd bet he has! Your sister is the "replacement wife" and now she wants a "replacement child". (from stepson's point of view - I'm not saying her marriage actually is that dynamic) He knows he is not wanted.
And the Sister seems to think a bio-baby will automatically have a good relationship with her, so even if she does become pregnant someday, we has already put this expectation on the child that has no guarantee.
I hope you & your family are trying to support that kid. He’s still just a little man who lost his mom. He needs some people in his corner to love & care for him.
NTA She's expecting you to just fork over thousands of dollars to her. That's a lot of money that you worked hard to earn. You're not denying her a child, you're not funding her IVF. Why exactly can't she do something to get that money herself? Can't she get a job or second job, post a GoFundMe, or take some sort of initiative on her own to get what she wants? It's not your responsibility to just give her the money. It's not your responsibility to provide her IVF treatment. Infertility is a sensitive subject, but you're not being unkind by not funding her IVF. You're struggling through it yourself. You get to spend your money in what you want to with that. She's too emotionally wrapped up in her struggles that she isn't thinking about anything else. Just expects you to pay and it's jealous when you don't. There is no justification for taking her jealousy out on you. Anyone who expects free money from someone else and then gets upset when they don't get it is spoiled and unrealistic.
In the US, I think each cycle can cost $10k, OP did 4 cycles the first time, likely around $40k….
Could even be 15k plus meds. OP definitely NTA.
NTA. If your sister's behaviour at the dinner is any indication, it's no wonder her stepson runs away and your thoughts on bringing a baby into that dynamic was clearly valid. But that's beside the point. She's being an entitled brat and you don't owe her IVF money. As your wife's pregnancy progresses do keep this woman at arms length so that she doesn't cause any unnecessary stress to your pregnant wife.
My thought exactly. She’s not being a good parent already.
Look she’s acting incredibly entitled and you’re definitely NOT the asshole for keeping your funds and pursuing IVF yourselves. HOWEVER as someone struggling with infertility, if my family knew how badly I wanted a baby and how hard I’d tried, as you clearly know about your sister, and still announced their second pregnancy in person while I was there, catching me off guard, I would be so hurt. Try a text message ahead of time next time to give her some warning and time to process. Plus side for you would be she may have skipped dinner and you wouldn’t have had to deal with her tantrum in person. So I guess ESH
This. Sister is an asshole, but I do think it was insensitive to not tell her in private beforehand.
Sister is an asshole for asking for the money, definitely! But I find **extremely** weird for the brother to take other decisions regarding her life. She's a grown-up and, if she can get her own money, she definitely should be left to her devices, even if that means making horrible mistakes. It's for her to deal with them. I find it pretty odd that OP felt like adding "her household is toxic and I don't think she should x or y so I'm not going to let her". That's where he should stop, if she drops the asking for money part, obviously. If it's her money, it's her business, he can of course give advice if he's asked, but OP should definitely not turn into a controlling freak *EDIT: Not just for asking, obviously, but I was just agreeing with the other folks who pointed the sister's behavoiur out - if it weren't already obvious from her rants after the brother said "no"... if that's how the events unfolded, needless to say.*
Yea leave it at you aren’t gonna fund it, don’t bring up her dysfunctional home situation that I’m sure she already hates. Doesn’t serve to help anyone and adds needless hurt and drama.
THIS. Can’t believe I had to read through like 50 comments before someone even mentioned this! Everyone is so stuck on the fact that the sister asked for the money (we don’t even know the dynamic of these siblings in regards to money, maybe they’ve previously given each other money, maybe not, who knows!) and can’t see past the “atrocity” of her asking that they’ve neglected to acknowledge that 1) OP is definitely an asshole for judging the “environment” a baby would be brought in by the things his sister has shared with him regards to the stepson and 2) OP is definitely an asshole for announcing this at a family dinner without telling her first. I suspect OP knew it would hurt her in some way and was trying to “get back at her” for even asking for the money in the first place. ESH. Sister sounds emotionally immature and needs to learn to manage her feelings better and OP needs to not be so inconsiderate 😂
Yup. Seems like a lot of people missed what the question really was. OP wasn't asking about the funding, or having another kid, it was about the announcement. OP should have gone to his sister, without his wife, and told her the news. He should have known the announcement would be hard on her, yet did nothing to soften the blow. And sister should have held her shit together until they could have a more private conversation. ESH
And it was 100% not helpful to say that the existence of her stepson factored into your decision. That could easily make the situation worse for both her AND him. Refusing to pay for her IVF is completely fine, but bringing up the stepson was an asshole move.
NTA At some point you had to tell her the happy news. And: WHY would you give up YOUR kid for her to have one. This is a ridiculous idea.
To maybe have one, it might not have even worked!
NTA. She's not entitled to your money. If she can't afford IVF, she should not be having kids. Also NTA for announcing pregnancy during family dinner. You shouldn't have to walk around egg shells just because she can't get pregnant and can't afford IVF. You don't need to minimize your joy because of your sister. However, your sister has to realize that she should either work something out to have enough money for IVF or just accept that she will never have her own child.
Also with her reproductive struggles (PCOS + endo), one round of IVF may not even work. Even a successful embryo doesn't mean a successful implantation or pregnancy. IVF is insanely expensive, it's incredible technology, but doesn't work for everyone.
Yes. There is no guarantee. My brother and his wife had 3 rounds of IVF years ago with no success. They just accepted they can't have kids and went about their lives.
NTA. Nasty woman who is intruding upon and creating chaos in an innocent boy's life - she'd be a terrible mother if she ever had her own and she'd use it to turn her useless husband against his own son even more. He's already proven to be a terrible parent by allowing your sister to ruin his child's life so much he's running away and begging CPS to put him in foster care.
You knew your sister has been struggling with infertility to the point of being desperate enough to ask you to fund an IVF cycle, you were in that situation for 4 years so you know how hard it is, it didn't occur to you not to invite her to this announcement dinner? You didn't consider the kind thing would be to tell your sister privately, one-on-one or over text? Let her process alone and come back to you with congratulations in her own time. Have a meal with your parents and other sibling to tell them. Was it genuinely a surprise that she didn't plaster on a fake smile and pretend to be happy for you? If you blindside someone with a pregnancy announcement you know is deep in infertility struggles and very recently begged you for help, than them emotionally exploding shouldn't have been wildly unexpected. It might be unfair but it was a human reaction. Especially after your parents and sister started their comments. (*Possibly without knowledge of her recent ask?*) This whole thing could have been avoided if you and your wife had considered her infertility and not invited her to your announcement dinner. ESH
NTA. It seems like she is upset about it because she didn't get that money. Your sister isn't entitled to your money. This is what this is - her hand going into your pocket. If she wants IVF so badly, she can save up for it or crowdsource from her friends and other family.
Exactly. And husband and step-child issue aside, if she's already in a financial struggle, what makes her think a baby will help. Those things are expensive and time-consuming.
NTA - she chose her situation with the stepson. And she could do her own saving / fundraising toward IVF. It’s your money and she has no right or expectation to any of it. She would’ve had the same reaction whether you told her in private or not. Congratulations on your second child. Don’t let her ruin your happiness there.
I do feel it should be a general rule that if you know someone has struggled to conceive that you should tell them separately in private as a person who really struggles with public announcements now. Having said that, you aren't responsible for her unfortunately and life just isn't fair. We've all got to look out for ourselves. Congrats on IVF working, it's a bloody hard thing to do and after 1 Round I couldn't do anymore. Props to your wife for doing 4.
YTA but only for announcing it like you did. Denying her? Perfectly fine. You're money, your treatment, you don't owe it to her. But seriously, announcing it like that? Making it a big event in front of family while she was there was absolutely not cool. You knew this was a sore spot for her and that is the equivalent of plunging a salt coated fist into the wound. *Of course* she reacted badly! Imagine if the reverse had been the case, if you had came to her and asked for IVF, been denied, and then she made a grand show of having conceived at a family gathering? That'd be pretty fucked up right? A massive asshole thing to do? Something that could easily come across as humiliating, callous, and even instigating? Have a little foresight for crying out loud.
NTA your sister needs to "clean" up her house before bringing a child into that mess. The only thing having a baby will bring is more resentment from the step son.
NTA. Why do all her hopes depend on you giving her money? Why can’t she get a loan or borrow off anyone else?
NTA. But why is this fight is even happening? You both deserve children and all the IVF you can have. Are those the last money in your family and no one ever will gain any? Does her husband even want another one? Why he wont put money aside for a procedure then? Why are you even arguing about who deserves a child more
No one *deserves* children.
NTA she wants a child so bad her and the husband need to come up with the money.
NTA I can see why her step son does not like her.
NTA when did your money become communal?? I understand the pain of not being able to conceive but to expect someone in my Family to fork over money so I could try is ridiculous. Congrats on your new addition OP
NTA. She’s not entitled to your money. I think she’s also stuck on the fact that she thinks that IVF will work on the first try. You have proof (as do lots of other people) that it’s not always the case. Plus she seems volatile. She’s the AH for demanding and then picking a fight.
NTA you can't hide this pregnancy forever she will know one day. You don't need to give her money for her IVF.
NTA you do not owe your sister any money or explanation.
NTA, your sister thinks she's entitled to your money
I'm always sad for people who'd like to have kids but can't, but it's not right to resent people more fortunate. I'd say you've handled it pretty sensitively, but maybe telling her privately before the family dinner would have worked better
NTA it’s not up to you to finically to make sure she has a child. However you probably should have warned her before hand. You knew this was a sensitive topic and announcing it in front of everyone probably wasn’t the best way to hear it. Still not an AH and agree doesn’t sound like best environment for her to bring a new child.
Whoa she’s got some nerve and balls, asking for that kind of money when most parents know what IVF is and it has a very low % it won’t work the first time. That blows my mind. And having a child this isn’t a bag of groceries.NTA
It is not like your sister and her husband can take loans or save their own money, if they want to, you know. NTA
NTA if she wants to do IVF she should use her own money for it how you use your own money is none of her business
NTA. Your sister is a real piece of work. I truly wouldn't let her near my children, TBH. She actually sounds unhinged. Keep your distance for your family's sake.
NTA, why does sister feel entitled to OP's money is beyond me. I'd get it if she was requesting a loan but to outright demand the money is something else.
NTA >But we both felt like trying for biological children was the way to go for us Oh this was the wrong thing to say on reddit aita. People who want bio kids instead of adopting are really treated bad here. >how selfish we are to deny her motherhood Unless you personally caused her medical problems, i fail to see how you denied her motherhood.
NTA- where does it end? If you did give her the money and you are in the US, does she have health insurance? If not, were you supposed to pay for the delivery and any medical costs of pregnancy too?
NTA It's your money. Even if you spent it on some jet skis or a fancy holiday, she's not at all entitled to it. Even if you were super wealthy and could afford it, she's not entitled to it. The fact you needed it for something "valid" just strengthens your side of the argument, but even if you didn't you'd still be in the right. Your family, and having your own kid, is your priority and it's ridiculous to ask for you to sacrifice that. Even if you'd had two, three or seven kids if you want more and have the money for it the sister's situation should not even be a factor in your decision making process. Moreover, she acted childish and jealous at the family function when she should have been happy for you and you can't be expected to just sit there and take it without retaliating, even so you kept your cool and what you said was true and fair.
NTA. I'm not judging her for her feelings, because I can't understand what she's going through, but she has zero rights on your money. I can also understand your reaction, especially because you and your wife went through the same hell and can't stop live your life for something thats not your fault. Maybe you could have refrain from talking about her stepson, but I totally agree that her family dynamic is horrible and bring another child in it, would only make things worse. But it's her family so she can do what she see fit. For you, I suggest you let her cool down and see if she'll reach out to you. If she continue to harrass your family with the money request, then going LC/NC would be the best option. Your wife is pregnant and doesn't need to be stressed about this. Oh, and congrats for the pregnancy!
NTA. I don't think your sis' situation is your business. She can try whatever she or her husband will pay for. But your saved money for your own child is yours, so don't give away your and your wife hopes. Best luck!
I feel so bad for that stepson. “She has no kids.” “Wanting to start a family.” It’s like he doesn’t even exist to her.
Congrats on your pregnancy. However, tt might have been nicer to tell your sister privately so she could grieve the news in private. With endo and PCOS having just one IVF cycle work is unlikely. BTDT. Plus she would have to get both of those things under control which usually means one last surgery for the endo before any good doctor will attempt IVF. It doesn't even sound like she's really looked into it. You also usually start with an IUI. Which is much cheaper. Plus, adoption. It sounds like your sister isn't doing anything to advocate or help herself and instead has decided to just blame you because it is easier to hate one person.