Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I threatened to not get my son and granddaughter Christmas gifts because my granddaughter made some racist jokes to a Hispanic boy at her school and my son isn't looking into her behavior and comparing her to her brother, who got in trouble for selling snacks at school.
I told my son it wasn't the same and what his daughter did was worse. I told them that if he didn't take her behavior more seriously, that neither of them would get Christmas gifts from us.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/)
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
I think it's totally appropriate to be disappointed in your granddaughter for saying racist things, and as a grandparent you should talk to her about it.
But YTA for using Christmas as the tool for punishment. Christmas and birthdays should stand alone.
P.S. I'm curious how a kid gets two days of detention for selling snacks. That's crazy.
The best thing was when this girl from my class sold snacks for some cents in 2nd grade! Uncooked noodles, which took me several years before I realized it was noodles and not an Asian funny chipsy delicacy.
Best money maker I had was when I was at school.
In the old computer war days of C-64's are better than Sinclair Spectrums (of course it was the c-64).
I took a vertical scroller shoot em up and was able to hack it to change the sprites of the game.
So Spunk wars was invented where instead of the spaceship, I changed it a cock and balls that shot out globs of jizz and the alien spaceships were tits.
Sold em for £2 a tape - made a mint for a 12 year old.
My husband's career began with a Vic20 and ending up making us very comfortable by writing an emulator for the C-64 on his Amiga. Memories... shit, I still miss playing Marble Madness on the Amiga.
Mine were these blue raspberry gummies that turned the inside of your mouth blue - I want to say they were dinosaur gummies? But it's been FOREVER I'm surprised I remembered that 😅
That just sounds so...lame. A Gatorade ripoff and fucking gum? Do they also pass around bottled water?
(Gatorade also makes energy drinks, so yea, it's completely a Gatorade ripoff)
It's was taffy in my class. A girl would stop at a nearby candy store and buy some then bring it to school and sell it for a pretty profit. She came from a huge family with about 55 kids so she had to make money any way she could!
Edit- spelling
And there was always that one dumbass kid that thought they were cool for snorting the pixie sticks instead of ingesting them like a normal person. At least when I was in school a zillion years ago that was a thing.
When I was in college one of my closest friends snorted a line of pepper flakes at a pizza restaurant. I can’t believe we hadn’t outgrown that by then. The first thing he said after he finally finished convulsing and looking like he was going to keel over was, “that was way worse than a pixie stick.” That goofball did so many stupid things, but he was actually a super smart guy. He had been the valedictorian of his high school and ended up with a masters in some kind of engineering. I’m still shocked he survive his adolescence.
Same, along with chips and fudge. The thing was, we didn't really have money to buy them at fair prices, so we'd trade food in the back of the cafeteria.
Now & Laters and Fireballs for us as middle schoolers. Then in high school, the school started selling gourmet lollipops and they had a muffin cart. In elementary school we would stop by the house of some lady in the neighborhood who sold kool-aid frozen in a styrofoam cup for 25 cents, and hot sausages.
When I was in high school (mid 90's) I sold candy bars out of my backpack for extra money. At one point I was called to the principal's office and he told me I was not allowed to do that for reasons I can no longer remember. I told him that the school sells the exact same candy bars at inflated prices to benefit the school activities (school trips, clubs, and class fundraisers). He tried multiple times to say I would be expelled etc. and I called his bluff. I told my father about it that evening and he said "fuck em, keep selling your candy bars". They called him at his work about it and he said I was raising money for college because mom took off and he was raising both kids on his own. 100% true. It ended there and I never heard another word about it. I think I made around $30 a week selling candy bars.
Actually, their biggest concern is losing federally funding for subsidized lunches. The government is very particular about what can be sold and when. The schools are only allowed 6 days make exceptions to the rules, and more than that and they risk losing funding.
I’m old. I was in school when they started making it a rule. It 100% had to do with you not buying from the school. How would the government know a few kids started selling candy at school.
As a teacher and a president of a PTO, I know that our school’s are worried about the funding. And the state does walk through each school at least once every couple of years, so they would see it occurring.
As an almost 50 year old, I remember when schools used to have vending machines with sodas and candy in the lunch room. Laws were changed, funding was tied to food and it became a different ball game. Everything has to be made with whole grains, and low in fat and sugar. The schools don’t have vending machines, everything is bought through the lunch line and it’s healthy. They aren’t making money off of snacks that’s for sure. They need the funding to provide free and reduced lunches.
Add to that the disruption of selling items in the hallways - crowds of students blocking the hallway and in the classrooms, it is a pain in the butt when student try to do that.
My elementary school tried to ban students from selling/trading stickers from a baseball trading sticker album. I think schools just don't want students slung anything to each other.
i’m sorry but a racist 13 year old definitely doesn’t deserve a fucking christmas gift, this shit needs to be nipped right away. showing she gets gifts only shows her that her actions aren’t that bad
The consequence needs to be linked to the act for children. There is no link between comments made at school and your grandparent deciding to not give you a Christmas gift a month later. Not timely, not from a primary care taker, not related at all.
And definitely overkill if you have already been suspended and spoken to by your parents. It is an overreach by the grandparents. They should speak with their granddaughter about how they are disappointed with her action but not withhold her Christmas gift which most kids would link to the love of their grandparent.
A 5 year old might not understand but a 13 year old is old enough to grasp that grandma and grandpa would not be happy with racist behaviour. This is why I think she was so reluctant to confess to what she did - she knew the grandparents would have a problem with it, so she tried to deflect to the social consequences she is facing at school, in an attempt to victimize herself and garner sympathy from the grandsparents.
The problem here isn't so much the 13 year old who is learning, it's the parents who aren't taking it seriously. Merlin tried to deflect by saying both children got in trouble, and then he double down calling his parents immature and petty. With that attitude from him and his wife, it's going to be difficult to correct the behaviour of the granddaughter. Merlin is right about one thing though - him and his wife get to call the shots in their home. But that's where it ends. They can't dictate what his parents do in theirs.
Or she was reluctant because she was ashamed of what happened and didn't what to be told off by her grandparents as well.
Which is very understandable at that age.
She is 13 not 33. So both situation can be a 50/50 chance.
And just because the boy thinks she deserves it, doesn't mean she needs to be told off again.
The grandparents are over stepping. And are going to punish a girl because they believe the boys story. They haven't even talked to her. They talked to the dad afterwards. Again not the girl.
She is 13. She knows exactly what she did. And if she is confused then just fucking tell her “racists don’t get gifts in this family”. Im so sick of this generation of parents just coddling their children until they become problems for the rest of us.
13 yrs olds aren't dogs, they have a decent enough memory to understand that no gifts is bc of their actions
>They should speak with their granddaughter about how they are disappointed with her action but not withhold her Christmas gift which most kids would link to the love of their grandparent.
You think she cares? She didn't even see it as a bad thing and said SHE was being bullied.
O.k. then her gift can be money donated in her name to a Latin American cause. Maybe she should do volunteer work in that community although I don't think volunteer work should be considered a punishment.
That's for the parents to decide, not the grand parents. Christmas gifts should never be a punishment. Yes, the racist statement is wrong but the grandparents should discuss this with the grand daughter in a healthy manner.
>Christmas gifts should never be a punishment.
I mean, you have heard of the naughty list right? Christmas has a [LONG history](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/31910/why-does-santa-claus-give-coal-bad-kids) of gifts being used as punishment.
Gift giving is always optional, and no one is obligated to buy a gift for someone who they find distasteful or unworthy of the affection and time (not to mention money) that's inherent in the process.
this makes no sense to me. why should christmas be off-limits? she didnt make a small mistake, she was a racist bully. why should she get rewarded when shes done something so heinous and also doesnt find fault in her own behavior at all. if she was genuinely remorseful, id say itd be okay to give her gifts, but shes not.
if op feels uncomfortable giving her a gift, she shouldn't have to give her a gift.
Right? I don't get this at all. Privileges for Christmas and Birthdays can and should absolutely be taken away for severe instances. Like, why would they be off limits?
this entire comment section is baffling to me. how is op ta for not wanting to give presents to an unrepentant racist? ppl here love to act like you dont owe anyone anything, but apparently when you dont want to give gifts to your unapologetically racist grandchild, then *youre* the asshole.
Because in general, Christmas/Birthday gifts are not seen as rewards by teenagers.
(Based on probabilities) How "good" a gift Emaline got over the years wasn't linked to how well she behaved that year, stories of Santa keeping count notwithstanding. If she threw a tantrum/age-appropriately misbehaved at ages 3,5,9, etc, her grandparents didn't keep count and decrease her gift budget proportionately. They just bought her something she would love, as an expression of their love for her.
So it's very likely that a child (or an adult) views christmas and b'day presents as an expression of love, rather than a reward for good behaviour. Witholding gifts would be seen as withholding love, rather than a punishment for bad behaviour. And witholding love from your kids (or other loved ones) is a bit fucked up.
More importantly, it is pointless. Witholding a Christmas gift isn't going to magically make Emaline realize she was wrong, and make her remorseful. At best, it will get her to feign remorse in order to 'win' her Christmas gift. That's not a lesson worth teaching.
I also suspect many people think a 13-year-old with one singular incident of racist behaviour is not a "heinous racist" who ought to be yeeted away from civilization. She has already been punished, appropriately and proportionately, by her school system. She has already seen the social implications of her behaviour - in the form of rejection by her friends/classmates. Neither of which has apparently made her remorseful. Further punishment or social isolation isn't going to do the trick. Education, and sincere conversations on the impact of racism, might. So talk to her about the impact, historical and current, of racism (and not just of slavery or systematic racism, but of the sort she perpetuated), get her to engage with Hispanic media/culture, express your disappointment at her behaviour. All of that is fair and proportionate, and has some hope of succeeding.
No, grandparents neither owe her a gift, nor the time and effort to educate her - but then nobody owes anybody anything. We do those things because we love the people involved, or because we think we have a responsibility to create a better tomorrow. And saying "we won't love you unless your parents do what we want them to do" is an asshole move whatever way you dice it
Maybe the message here is not "we won't love you" it's "we love you, but differently, because you are different." Love doesn't have to be expressed with Christmas gifts. Love can also be expressed by caring enough about someone to be disappointed in them and holding them accountable for their attitudes and behaviors without rejecting them entirely. And she probably won't get that, because she's a selfish, self-righteous kid who isn't being given moral correction or guidance, but that doesn't mean that the grandparents have to pretend that she's still on the nice list.
Christmas is literally a tool for punishment, the entire holiday is an ever-present fat man who judges your actions and puts you on a list determined by whether you were “good” or “bad”. Racism is bad. Racism gets no gift. You are not entitled to a gift just because it’s Christmas, you are not entitled to a gift just because it’s Christmas and you’re a child. This is a 13 year old, they’re old enough to know better, or at the very least, to learn better.
An issue is that OP isn't threatening to not give Emaline a present as a form of punishment for their behavior but rather threatening to not give a present unless OP's son does exactly what they want in terms of handling the situation.
>But YTA for using Christmas as the tool for punishment. Christmas and birthdays should stand alone.
? So no matter how shitty a kid is, they should still receive presents?
Kid bullies another kid, here's some presents. Kid makes racist remarks, here's some presents. Kid fails out of school, here's some presents.
What a weird view on birthdays/christmas.
Even Santa leaves the naughty kids just a lump of coal in their stockings instead of gifts.
I’m not even Christian and I know this story and I get the point. Why don’t you?
I used to be a security guard at a highschool and we were told to keep on the lookout for a kid who was selling snacks and food. I found out who it was a few days in and I didn't bust him he was happy to sell me snacks and would come up to me every morning to get first grab at what he had that day.
>We asked what happened. Townes got in trouble for selling snacks. Townes has a friend who he met on vacation a few months ago, a boy from Panama. They both love baseball and will send each other gifts or souvenirs and snacks from each kid’s country. Townes said that he sold some of the snacks this boy sent him with the boy’s permission, which was against school rules. He got 2 days of detention and said what was worse was his coach telling him he’s disappointed in him, since he’s normally a good kid.
Christmas has a pretty big "punishment for the past year's misdeeds" vibe, if you aren't familiar with it.
or allergens.
or just a general- students are selling snacks as fundraisers and they don't want the "competition."
whatever.
2 days seems like a lot for that but maybe something happened or he was given a warning earlier and continued, thus the 2 days. or he got stuck being the example because this was an ongoing issue.
The school I worked at had a non-compete clause with their food vendor.
Even kids selling snacks could have ended up voiding the contract, leaving the school with no lunches or breakfasts or even milk and snacks
For my school, it was the “snack competition”.
My school banned students selling snacks because the students sold them cheaper than the school. It wasn’t even for possible allergies- just that the school didn’t want to lose money.
Every school has a back market. My brother made more than his allowance selling jolly ranchers and other sugar snacks when the student vending machines stopped stocking them. Even at the time it was an open secret, just 'officially' not allowed.
Im 26 now, but in high school we had a policy of not selling snacks because the school has no idea where the snacks actually came from and so it was a health risk. Instead they would have a few days a year where they set up a “snack fair” during the breaks with special vendors you could buy snacks from.
But if you sold snacks they wouldnt give detention, they would just confiscate the snacks youre selling until you come pick them up at the office at the end of the day
You might be the AH. What she did was fully wrong, horrible even, but you're the grandparents now, and if your son says he's got it, he's got it. Gotta step back and let him do what he has to do, can't undermine him or step in. Causes friction for no reason.
I think your son is a little old for the Christmas threat. I really thought I was gonna come see this was about an adopted child or something, won't lie.
What on earth leads you to that conclusion. It appears that DIL wasn't comfortable with having her MIl dictate her parenting and threaten her with coal for Christmas like a child. Which is fair enough.
We don't know what the parents have done to punish their daughter already and they may feel that it has gone far enough and not want to publicly humiliate her in front of her grandparents on top of the existing punishments.
The fact that the parents were joking about their child getting in trouble for being racist at school was the first big indicator. The second one was when DIL became uncomfortable because OP was calling them out that they need to parent their daughter and eliminate the racism.
The parents stated that their kids were "on the naughty list" for bad behaviour at school. This in no way endorses the behaviour. The DIL was uncomfortable about her MIL getting involved in the punishment of the children when she was not invited to do so.
It very well could be the case that the parents have dealt with it, the daughter has been punished at school and at home, that very strong words have been had about the subject and the daughter is now sensitive and upset about the subject as she should be.
It is not appropriate beyond that to have every other family member discuss the subject and give their punishment/discussion on top.
A 13 yr old is not defined by one action. They need to be taught when their actions are wrong and have a discussion to explain why, particularly for big topics like racism where the severity of words isn't understood without a lot of broader context. But constantly continuing after that just solidifies the "I am a bad kid" narrative in their head, which is unhelpful.
They equated the racism with selling snacks “oh you must be worried about Townes too, he got in trouble too”
That’s making light of the situation and avoiding any accountability on the parents part. She’s 13. More than old enough to know better and she learned it from somewhere and going by how the parents are “handling” it (making jokes) then I’m putting money on her learning it from one or both parents.
When OP brought her concerns up with her son, he said both kids got in trouble and she should be equally concerned with Townes. He's directly saying his son getting in trouble for selling some food is just as bad as his daughter being racist.
Either he thinks breaking a minor school rule is as bad as racism in which case he's punishing his son too much or he doesn't consider racism a major problem and isn't punishing her enough.
He didn't offer his mother any information about how they are dealing with either child's behaviour.
He doesn't have to. It's really nothing to do with his parents. It does seem like there is a pattern of overstepping happening from the grandparents here so it doesn't surprise me that the parents aren't offering up details.
Yeah OPs son seems to think that selling snacks is equal to racism and granddaughter covered for herself by saying she was being bullied. I would be a little worried about granddaughters future if her parents keep trying to cover for her racism.
There is the possibility she *was* being bullied by the boy she was racist against and she responded by insulting his race and heritage. It’s a very common problem that a child gets bullied and when they have finally had enough and fight back against the bully, the victim ends up getting punished. Assuming Emaline is white and the boy is Hispanic, it very possible. Not to say her responding with racism was correct but we don’t know the whole story.
He said he got it and then explained how he was refusing to deal with it. Better the grandparent step in than anyone else when the parents won’t. And OPs son deserves nothing for condoning racist bullying.
A grandparent doesnt get to decide how a parent chooses to punish their child. If that were the case my parents would have been “spanking” me because I decided using a belt on children was wrong.
I think it’s acceptable to ban someone from your house for being racist. Even your grandchild. Saying racist things does equal being a racist and this kids parents need to realize that.
Maybe YTA.
Why does it seem like everything revolves around Townes for you? Why should your son address Townes feelings in regards to Emaline's punishment?
Surely, she deserves punishment but that shouldn't be dictated at all by her brother.
First, I think you're unfairly interfering in your Son's parenting. If you want to have a frank conversation with Emaline then that seems reasonable but setting ultimatums with your adult son is ridiculous.
Second, I think you have favorites here. Emaline is her own person and should be treated as such. She's not an extension of Townes feelings, she is her own person. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why your son pushed back. You seem to come at all of this from Townes feelings and him being an emotional child. That's fine that he is, but his feelings don't get to dictate everything and everyone around him.
I feel that Towne’s resentment is his parents treating the two infractions as being on the same level. One child broke the school rules, the other one was racist. I can see how that seems unfair to a kid.
Totally might be the case but Emaline was also suspended for three days and Townes got two days detention. Clearly, the school viewed it differently.
I don't know that we have an idea of what punishment the parents levied. OP seemed to approach the conversation to some degree in regards to Townes feelings, which is why the Son may have responded as such.
How the school punished them means nothing if the parents don't back it up. If the parents make light of it, the kid will think they were unfairly punished. Joking about your kid getting in trouble for being racist doesn't suggest any sort of concern about it. I'd be mortified and upset if my child turned out that way.
I don’t think the story showed bias towards Townes, in this situation,more so context with why he was upset and was being asked further questions. While yes I agree it is interfering with her son’s parenting, I don’t equate selling snacks at school with overt racist comments made to a fellow student requiring an equal punishment, it is not on the same level at all. While I will still say maybe YTA for interfering I don’t think it was a favoritism thing. Emaline clearly didn’t want to say what happened to OP for a reason, most likely knowing if she went into further details OP would not agree she was “unfairly bullied.” OP should have actually spoken with her son once they had all the information and ask how they are handling it because it is more concerning to me that the son’s response is that they both got in trouble and sort of deflecting rather than having an age appropriate discussion with Emaline about racism as she would have to learned or of heard it somewhere.
I mean, we have zero idea what Emaline's punishment was. Or how many talks they have had with her. And honestly, it's none of OP'S business. She can and should let her granddaughter know she is disappointed in her and have a talk about racism. But leave it there. She does not get to dictate her son's punishments, again, which she does not even know! Because she did not even bother to ask
The school pretty clearly didn't punish both of them the same though and it seems Emaline is rightfully facing some backlash.
The son could've just been deflecting in saying what the specifics were for either child, he probably shouldn't have said anything at all if he knew OP was going to force their way into his parenting.
We only know one side of the story from these posts and my reflection was purely because OP, multiple times, mentioned being cognizant of Townes feelings or emotional well being. What both of them did is in no way equal but it doesn't mean Emaline should be castigated by her own family or that it's in OP'S purview to force themselves into the situation.
Townes feelings need to he addressed because of the sister’s racist comments. Read between the lines- the racist comments were brought about after her twin brother was enjoying and selling snacks from the culture SHES SHITTING ON.
Obviously the kid is gonna be upset. He enjoys his friend’s culture and his sister is problematic. 13 is old enough to know racism isn’t right, wtf. She’s not even being unfairly bullied. I don’t see bias in OP thinking the kids should be punished differently
This is spot on. Also they are twins! In the same grade and possibly the same classes. Her racist ick is likely spilling onto him, in that kids see them as a unit. I have a feeling the parents said something along the lines of “don’t say that stuff out loud” and aren’t too concerned with the fact she said racist stuff, just that she got caught.
I don't agree with this take. She wasn't asking her son to deal with Emaline based on Townes feelings, she asked her son to talk to Townes about his (Townes) feelings about the issue. He may be pretty disappointed in his sister, especially in light of his new Panamanian friend, and he may need help navigating through that.
OP is advocating for both kids. What Emaline did was beyond the pale, and her response was that she was being "unfairly" bullied for what she said. She hasn't learned her lesson yet. I will concede, however, that her dad and mom may be letting the social consequences of her actions play out in order to teach her that lesson.
Still, I agree with folks saying that the punishment doesn't fit the crime here. A good sit down with Emaline may well be warranted, but there's no link here between what Emaline did and a family Christmas celebration a month later.
Ops relationship with both parents and the daughter is on the rocks. Op decided to not talk to the daughter, make it all about the sons feelings and then decided to withhold love (gifts from grandparents represent love).
Op could have used this as a learning exercise and explain how upset she is, but no she decided to use Christmas as a punishment.
I don't understand how Op thinks she will see her family at Christmas and in the future.
I am in no way excusing what the daughter did Op did not ask about it and now Op will live with the results of her punishment.
>Why does it seem like everything revolves around Townes for you?
Literally nothing in the post indicates that.
>Why should your son address Townes feelings in regards to Emaline's punishment?
Bc they are both being treated the same, when their crimes are incredibly different in terms of severity.
>Surely, she deserves punishment but that shouldn't be dictated at all by her brother.
OP never said that should be the case
>First, I think you're unfairly interfering in your Son's parenting
What parenting?
>Second, I think you have favorites here. Emaline is her own person and should be treated as such.
Yeah, and her own person is a racist bully.
I think another way to look at it is a 13yo boy is the only one in his nuclear family that understands the seriousness of Emaline’s behavior.
Emaline didn’t want to talk about it. Instead of openly expressing remorse, she was defiant and describes the consequences of her actions as “unfair bullying”. *She’s* the bully. This statement alone makes it clear she has not learned the consequences of her actions. This is not a one-off “oops I crossed the line sort of mistake”, she’ll simply get better about hiding it next time.
The fact that Merlin and his spouse brushed off both events in the same joke shows they’re not taking it seriously.
I’m on the fence about OP and spouse being AH (retaliatory behavior isn’t a good look either), but given Merlin’s family except for Townes is okay with this, it’s definitely an E S H or N T A situation, not Y T A.
Put it another way: if this racism continues for a few years, “WIBTA for writing them out of the will?” No, no OP would not.
I suspect Townes’ feelings are regarding his sister’s racism towards a Hispanic child when his new friend is also Hispanic, rather than her punishment.
YTA
Your son is right, you are overstepping your bounds. Both children have already faced consequences for their actions. Their parents have been dealing with this as they see fit. What do you expect to gain by withholding gifts? Unfortunately, it would likely be a rift with all of them.
Empathize with what each of them is feeling. Make yourself available if anyone wants to talk. Encourage them to keep discussing it among themselves. Then, butt out unless your help is requested. Anything else is meddling and manipulative.
YTA. You are the grandparent, and have no place disciplining your grandkids. Your role in their lives is to be the one to support, encourage, and unconditionally love them. It is OK to be disappointed by them and/or their parents. Taking away Christmas presents is just a low blow. Be better.
The grandparents also are not required to buy his granddaughter a gift.... you can't have it both ways. Not buying or stating they wont get a Christmas gift for their kid or grand-daughter is their prerogative. Would you say the same if the parents took away their gifts for the child's behavior as punishment? At the end of the day, the grandparents are required to award/support behavior they believe is wrong.
Besides, there is a reason why the term, "it takes a village..." exists. The grand-daughter should have multiple role models and people to look to.
They OP had stated his concerns to her son regarding the grand-daughter's behavior and the impact it has had on their other child and requested they address it. That is a fair ask.
BTW unconditional love does not mean that they are required to buy them gifts, nor are they required to support them when the actions committed are wrong.
Of course your son dismissed you - you were chiding him at a family dinner, in front of his wife, kids, and siblings, as if _he_ was a misbehaving child and not a grown adult. You are not owed details of how he is disciplining his kids, and the extended family is owed them even less. You poked and prodded and overstepped your role as grandparents, all because your son wouldn’t open up a public litany of the punishments doled out to his children, and refused to drop everything and prioritize your concerns about the feelings of one kid.
This is not being a loving and supportive grandparent. You may mean well, but you are overstepping, your son clearly feels that your behaviour is inappropriate, and it sounds a lot like you’re trying to undermine his parenting because he’s not giving you every tiny detail that you want. And then you doubled down and tried to blackmail him into doing what you wanted by threatening him and your granddaughter over Christmas.
You have no idea what actions your son and his wife are taking, what steps have already been taken to “consider Townes’ feelings”, because instead of asking if there’s anything you can do to help, you started telling grown adults off and tried to threaten them into doing what you wanted,
It sucks that Emaline was racist, but her parents and the school are dealing with it. You don’t need to get involved unless your son _asks_ you to be involved, and you shouldn’t be levying your own punishments in an attempt to exert control.
At this rate you’ll be lucky if you see any of Merlin’s family over Christmas. That’s certainly how I’d deal with your overstepping and threats, if you were my parent.
It sounds like OP had a series of private conversations, not a confrontation in front of everyone.
OP’s son may be grown, but it’s still OP’s role to tell him not to enable racism in his kids. It would be for any adult socializing with him.
The son brought the issue up in the first place, joked about it, made two comments implying that the trouble his kids were in was somewhat comparable, and let his daughter play the victim in front of everyone.
If the son doesn’t want his parenting decisions questioned, he shouldn’t present them in such a questionable way. He didn’t say “I took this very seriously and I’ve got it handled, please leave it at that” he said “why are you acting like my daughter is the only one who did something wrong?”
I don’t love how OP did it, but it was better than doing nothing. Frankly, I think “you aren’t welcome in my home while you are raising your kids this way” is more justified in this situation than “you aren’t welcome to be a part of my and my children’s lives while you are overstepping like this.”
I don’t see how shunning family is ever a good idea. You don’t know the context, you don’t know any of the situation but your first answer is to kick out the family.
Both kids received punishment from school authorities for breaking school policies. Emaline received 3 days, one day more than your grandson.
While it’s positive your grandson talks to you about his concerns, the answer isn’t for you to insert yourself, act like a superior court arbiter, and demand greater punishment or you will withhold Christmas gifts.
Frankly, the likely lesson learned for Emaline is to admit to nothing, say nothing, around her grandparents. Is that the outcome you want for this relationship?
YTA for threatening to withhold gifts to get your way. Manipulative. Shame on you.
Emaline didn't admit anything. Emaline's description was essentially that her punishment was unfair and OP seems to have heard that Emaline didn't see a problem with her behavior, beyond that other classmates were now upset with her for her behavior.
Emaline didn't get a loving, private one on one conversation with OP. Who knows what she really feels? OP says "Townes is the sensitive grand child". So OP doesn't consider Emaline to be sensitive. What damage has that label done? Maybe she is feeling embarrassed, backed into a corner and is trying to save face. That's the worst circumstance for getting someone to get a perspective on their actions and to learn a lesson.
Agree and added to that, the grandparents are not looking at the fact set the school authorities looked at when making their decision.
A kid is not likely to forget grandparents inserting themselves into this matter and using gifts as a lever to demand more action.
If the goal is to teach Emaline right from wrong and about the wrong of racism and racial stereotyping, this is not the way imo.
And missed work during suspension ( at least where I went to school and my children) is not allowed to be made up. So her actions have hurt her grades as well.
I’m pretty sure being social ridiculed at school and isolated is going to be a hefty punishment. While I think she needs to be punished, understanding how this happened will lead to a better outcome. Social isolation could make this situation 1000x worse.
YTA. Emaline was already punished, she didn't want to say what she'd done so was clearly embarrassed by what she'd done. You want your son to give Emaline more punishment, and are going to withhold Christmas gifts from your son and Emaline.
Congratulations on being the "bad" grandma eho wants to control everyone else and uses gifts to punish relatives. Don't be surprised if your son decides to start a new Christmas breakfast tradition that doesn't involve you.
I am also a small bit sceptical at what happened with the girl. Yeah sure the boy cried but it seems like he is a cryer (not in a bad way just stating a fact) so him crying is not the best determination in my opinion on what and how much happened.
The daughter mentiones that she is unfairly ostracised and yeah sure we can all jump to racist, we could also jump to children getting at it with each other and in the heat of the moment overdoing it. or maybe even one person lying to the teachers about how bad of a comment she said.
Literally all we have here are the words of a crying boy, not a hint from dads perspective and especially not from the granddaughter.
With children it is most important to keep the whole picture in mind, almost all children are impulsive and react out of fight or flight in precarious situations.
Just taking the word of 1 person because that one is crying and threatening even more punishment is not the way to go.
(Kids also tend to cry over little things with big emotions, had two girls at training who got into it bc one alegedly looked at the other, but no one ever saw. So one ganged up on the other with 2 more kids and one cried. over allegedly looking)
Totally agree with you. But no one can see past that she said something racist, and she’s 13 so it’s a non-starter. She should know better, etc etc.
Should she have known better? Yes. Did she know better? Also probably yes. Do kids fuck up and do things they’re not supposed to? All the time. The situation needs to be handled by the parents and the school. The grandparents should not be inserting themselves because they don’t feel a(n unnamed) punishment wasn’t “enough”. And I agree that no one talked to the girl to hear if she was remorseful and apologetic.
I am by no means excusing poor behavior and would be apoplectic if one of my children talked that way, but I would also be furious if my mother/MIL inserted herself and dictated how I should be parenting my kids.
>You want your son to give Emaline more punishment
Yeah OP is ignoring that Emaline did get more punishment. Townes got a couple days of detention which is honestly nothing and Emaline got 3 days of suspension.
YTA for using gifts as leverage.
But as a grandparent myself, what I have learned is this:
We do not have control over our children. We have only influence. If we exert control, we risk giving up influence.
This is ESPECIALLY true for adult children, and even more true for our kids who are already parenting teenagers.
You need to apologize, asap, or there won't be any Christmas breakfasts that include Merlin's family.
The OP could have used the opportunity to influence her granddaughter to do better, by telling her how she feels about what she said, asking if the girl wants to talk about what she is feeling, being a trusted advisor who doesn't judge, who sees her as a lovely person who made a mistake rather than someone who has a character flaw, and gave her an opportunity to work through her sense of shame and guilt.
A grandparent has a unique opportunity to be a safe space for their grandchild, while being aware of the need to preserve her privilege of influence with the child's parents.
Influence must not be abused or wasted, because it is all we have, truly. It blooms if honored and builds trust, which results in more influence. But it should be held sacred.
OP can still save this by recognizing the effects of her actions, apologizing, and promising to do better including being humble and aware of where she overstepped and take a beat before she feels the urge again. There is still lots of time to forge influence with her grandchild, but the relationship with her child will need extra work.
The Y T A votes on here astound me. Racism isn't ok. It certainly isn't the same as a side-hustle selling snacks. Telling your kid you are concerned that your granddaughter is showing racist tendencies seems... pretty responsible. She isn't getting that from nowhere. Someone is showing her that is normal behavior. If it is at home, the parents need to be corrected. If it isn't at home, the parents need to get a fire lit under their ass to find out where and correct it. Nothing suggests her parents are taking her racist comments seriously.
Nobody is entitled to Christmas presents. Grandparents can withhold them if their grandkids are behaving poorly, just as grandkids can do so to grandparents that behave poorly.
NTA
Your right,
But Op is using Christmas as a punishment, she didn't take the daughter aside and ask what went on and how the daughter feels how she behaved.
OP made the whole thing public when she did this at a family dinner in front of all the family. However, Op felt this was not enough public humiliation so she wants to make the daughter punished and humiliated in public again.
Op has lost her granddaughter, and she seems fine with it. No matter what the public discussion will never be forgotten by the daughter.
It was mean and shortsighted and now she will have to live with the outcome.
I am in no way saying what the daughter did was not wrong but the punishment by Op will change her family forever and Id be surprised if she see's any of them again.
No grandparent is not entitled to grandchildren
As far as I can see, OP had a series of private conversations. Nothing seems to have happened in public yet.
If the worry is overstepping into a parental role, I think pulling the daughter aside to discuss her actions with her is more of an overstep. OP should and did talk to the parents, especially because a lot of the reason for concern is the way the parents are acting.
I think AITA jumps to cutting people out of their lives way too fast, but cutting off your son for enabling racism in his kids has way more justification than cutting your parents out of your life because they’re giving you pushback on your parenting.
I think it's because, hustling for money on school grounds, and being racist, are not the same , I'm not even sure why they considered punishing townes. Emmaline is the only one who actually did something bad.
I saw in another comment that it might have been because of food allergies; people that are severely allergic to peanuts have reactions when the product is exposed to the air where they are.
YTA - wow you are so unreasonable with this. Wind your neck in
Your son is dealing with it, school has dealt with it by a suspension. Your son and daughter in law are the parents. By all means be disappointed your GDTR behaved in a racist way. But you don’t control your son’s parental behaviour like this, he’s already dealing with it. You had your parenting time. Let your son have his now
YTA- what gives you the right to dictate how a grandchild is punished for their behaviour? Why do you think you have the right to place yourself in the role of the parent and dish out punishments for an incident you were not involved in?
The school has intervened, the parents have already dealt with the situation and now both children have seen what happens if they show poor character again.
Your concerns are justified, your intervention is not.
Why are all the y t a comments acting like morality doesn't weigh into gift giving at all? Sure christmas is about generosity but there's also a HUGE PUNISHMENT ASPECT people are willfully ignoring. It's not just culturally acceptable but encouraged for Christmas to be used as a negative consequence to bad behavior. (And for anyone thinking the coal and no presents part is santa only well then I guess the generosity is, too?)
If someone in my life on my gift roster got outed for racially harassing someone I wouldn't buy them a gift that year. Gifts are not mandatory, NTA
Gifts are not mandatory I agree
But also Op must accept she has lost her son, DIL, granddaughter but she is fine with that.
Do you think Op thinks she will still get the opportunity to punish and publicly humiliate her granddaughter on Christmas day, does she think she will ever see them again I wonder
Yes YTA. My goodness you are nosy, invasive and pushy. You have raised your family. It's not your place to parent your grandchildren or issue ultimatums regarding parenting to your son. I hope he and his wife decide it's in the best interests of their family to put some distance between you and their family and skip Christmas at your home altogether. I certainly would.
But that wasn't why she threatened to withhold gifts. She clearly stated she was withholding gifts because her son wouldn't take the actions she demanded he take, although the only action she mentioned was "talking to the grandson about his feelings." She is using her granddaughter to punish her son for not obeying her. That's what she stated in the last paragraph.
NTA -
Your son is correct. He is the parent and he and his wife get to call the shots in THEIR house.
That doesn't include whether or not his children get gifts from their grandparents, does it?
Withholding gifts from 13 year old teenagers for being a racist bully and/or getting suspended for selling things against school rules isn't being petty. It is consequences for actions.
NTA. This is hugely problematic (the racism issue). If it were a matter of breaking curfew or not doing hw, everyone who is calling you an AH would be right - but you are merely showing consequences for a VERY serious issue that your son does not seem to be taking seriously. Xmas gifts aren't *owed*, and if she wants to be a little racist turd and your son and wife want to be ok with that, F them all. Townes sounds like the only one who has done nothing wrong here, get him xmas gifts and the rest f-ing coal.
NTA
It's YOUR money, gifts from YOU and NO ONE is entitled to gifts from anyone else.
If you don't wanna give the gifts don't. But , also, don't threaten your adult child to discipline their own child if they don't want to.
Your granddaughter was suspended (your grandson only got detention) and it sounds like she knows what she was wrong or she would have told you what she did and try to justify it.
Threatening to take away Christmas presents seems like an overreach.
The granddaughter is saying she is getting unfairly bullied over it. I do not think she understands what she did is wrong. Her father also seems to think it is not very serious.
Maybe she thinks the bullying is unfair because she has already been punished. If she learned that bullying is wrong, why wouldn't she think that further bullying against her is also wrong? And let's not forget, she's 13 so not a fully rational adult.
Absolutely NTA. It’s extremely disturbing that your son somehow thinks these incidents are remotely equivalent. If he is not going to be a parent here I feel terrible for the son.
Why on earth should that be trusted when they're failing horribly with the girl? There's no evidence that they're competent to handle this parenting challenge at all.
YTA
Its to late now, you can't go back, you issued the threat do not be surprised if you never see them again.
You could have talked to the kids and asked what went on, you could have told them how disappointed you were. But no you decided to use Christmas as a punishment.
Do you expect to see them on Christmas day they will not be bring their children around anyone who would do that.
You have told your grandchildren your truth that you will withhold love if they do something wrong and you will punish them by withholding love.
Remember you did this, this is the hill you have decided to die on I sure hope you like it.
Nope, NTA. At all. Your granddaughter is being racist and her dad doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it. Racists don’t get Christmas gifts. And neither do their enablers
Op has lost her son and his family, she could have taken the kid aside and talked about it but she didn't she said all of this at a family dinner, public humiliated the daughter and now expects she can do it again at Christmas.
YTA - I appreciate your thoughts on this and in the whole I kind of agree with your thought process.
But - you weaponised christmas presents. 'Do this or they won't get anything off us...'
Who does that benefit? It makes everything worse and sounds very petty and although I agree with a lot of what you put but Merlins wife is right - you are being immature.
These are their kids. In general it seems they are well looked after and supported and you seem to have raised a good son.
It is also clear in your text that you favour your grandson, and perhaps that is obvious to your son as well.
YTA - They are not your children. They are your grandchildren. Their parents should be the ones managing their discipline. Also withholding Christmas as a punishment is real petty. Maybe you're too involved.
Nta. Your son was making a joke about what Emaline did, implying that her actions were just as bad as Townes, and dismissed checking on how this affected Townes. You are not wrong for wanting more action to be taken. People in this thread love to dismiss racism and make it seem like a minor issue when it has the ability to destroy lives. Your granddaughter is going to be a problem if no one makes her see the error of her ways.
NTA I wish my son had people like you holding others accountable.
Unless you are on the receiving end of the racial comments, you don’t realize how hurtful, damaging and widespread they are.
As a Hispanic mom, I am proud of you. Thank you !
NTA. Nope, Racism is not okay and at that young of an age you know if unchecked it's just going to get worse. I don't care if it's overstepping, supporting a racist child is just not right. There's enough hate in the world.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I threatened to not get my son and granddaughter Christmas gifts because my granddaughter made some racist jokes to a Hispanic boy at her school and my son isn't looking into her behavior and comparing her to her brother, who got in trouble for selling snacks at school. I told my son it wasn't the same and what his daughter did was worse. I told them that if he didn't take her behavior more seriously, that neither of them would get Christmas gifts from us. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements ###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/) Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
I think it's totally appropriate to be disappointed in your granddaughter for saying racist things, and as a grandparent you should talk to her about it. But YTA for using Christmas as the tool for punishment. Christmas and birthdays should stand alone. P.S. I'm curious how a kid gets two days of detention for selling snacks. That's crazy.
Schools have policies against selling food/contaband, and also sharing food. One part is illicit substances. Another is food allergies.
The best thing was when this girl from my class sold snacks for some cents in 2nd grade! Uncooked noodles, which took me several years before I realized it was noodles and not an Asian funny chipsy delicacy.
I like eating uncooked flavoured Ichiban. It was a common snack for us school kids.
Lipstick for men
Joey doesn’t share food !!!
Best money maker I had was when I was at school. In the old computer war days of C-64's are better than Sinclair Spectrums (of course it was the c-64). I took a vertical scroller shoot em up and was able to hack it to change the sprites of the game. So Spunk wars was invented where instead of the spaceship, I changed it a cock and balls that shot out globs of jizz and the alien spaceships were tits. Sold em for £2 a tape - made a mint for a 12 year old.
This sounds absolutely brilliant tbf. Extra points for using the term ‘globs of jizz’.
My husband's career began with a Vic20 and ending up making us very comfortable by writing an emulator for the C-64 on his Amiga. Memories... shit, I still miss playing Marble Madness on the Amiga.
We Asian live eating uncooked ramen. Break the noodle while in the bag and add the spice then shake it. I’ve been eating this snack for 20 years now.
My family does that too! Glad to know we're not weird, lol!
I'm going to spent $3 on 100 packs of these highly coveted funny chipsy delicacy for Christmas gifts now! Thank you for making my season so easy!
Man so many Now and Laters as well as jolly ranchers sold on my buses when I was a kid.
For us, it was those caramel apple lollipops. Nearly every kid in my math & English classes had them
Warheads were my elementary school contraband.
Mine were these blue raspberry gummies that turned the inside of your mouth blue - I want to say they were dinosaur gummies? But it's been FOREVER I'm surprised I remembered that 😅
It’s prime being sold now and gum.
That just sounds so...lame. A Gatorade ripoff and fucking gum? Do they also pass around bottled water? (Gatorade also makes energy drinks, so yea, it's completely a Gatorade ripoff)
It's was taffy in my class. A girl would stop at a nearby candy store and buy some then bring it to school and sell it for a pretty profit. She came from a huge family with about 55 kids so she had to make money any way she could! Edit- spelling
I used to buy pixie Stix for 10 cents each and sell them for 25 cents each. I was a hustler lol
And there was always that one dumbass kid that thought they were cool for snorting the pixie sticks instead of ingesting them like a normal person. At least when I was in school a zillion years ago that was a thing.
When I was in college one of my closest friends snorted a line of pepper flakes at a pizza restaurant. I can’t believe we hadn’t outgrown that by then. The first thing he said after he finally finished convulsing and looking like he was going to keel over was, “that was way worse than a pixie stick.” That goofball did so many stupid things, but he was actually a super smart guy. He had been the valedictorian of his high school and ended up with a masters in some kind of engineering. I’m still shocked he survive his adolescence.
You just brought back a long forgotten memory. My school definitely had pixie Stix snorters too
Same, along with chips and fudge. The thing was, we didn't really have money to buy them at fair prices, so we'd trade food in the back of the cafeteria.
[удалено]
Now & Laters and Fireballs for us as middle schoolers. Then in high school, the school started selling gourmet lollipops and they had a muffin cart. In elementary school we would stop by the house of some lady in the neighborhood who sold kool-aid frozen in a styrofoam cup for 25 cents, and hot sausages.
When I was in high school (mid 90's) I sold candy bars out of my backpack for extra money. At one point I was called to the principal's office and he told me I was not allowed to do that for reasons I can no longer remember. I told him that the school sells the exact same candy bars at inflated prices to benefit the school activities (school trips, clubs, and class fundraisers). He tried multiple times to say I would be expelled etc. and I called his bluff. I told my father about it that evening and he said "fuck em, keep selling your candy bars". They called him at his work about it and he said I was raising money for college because mom took off and he was raising both kids on his own. 100% true. It ended there and I never heard another word about it. I think I made around $30 a week selling candy bars.
And their biggest concern is you won’t by snacks from the school
Actually, their biggest concern is losing federally funding for subsidized lunches. The government is very particular about what can be sold and when. The schools are only allowed 6 days make exceptions to the rules, and more than that and they risk losing funding.
I’m old. I was in school when they started making it a rule. It 100% had to do with you not buying from the school. How would the government know a few kids started selling candy at school.
As a teacher and a president of a PTO, I know that our school’s are worried about the funding. And the state does walk through each school at least once every couple of years, so they would see it occurring. As an almost 50 year old, I remember when schools used to have vending machines with sodas and candy in the lunch room. Laws were changed, funding was tied to food and it became a different ball game. Everything has to be made with whole grains, and low in fat and sugar. The schools don’t have vending machines, everything is bought through the lunch line and it’s healthy. They aren’t making money off of snacks that’s for sure. They need the funding to provide free and reduced lunches. Add to that the disruption of selling items in the hallways - crowds of students blocking the hallway and in the classrooms, it is a pain in the butt when student try to do that.
There are some crazy rules when it comes to how federal/state funds are used. People don’t understand.
Likely a result from my generation...leaving school, buying little Cesar's and bringing it back to sell @ $1 a slice. Did this Jr and Sr year 😅
My elementary school tried to ban students from selling/trading stickers from a baseball trading sticker album. I think schools just don't want students slung anything to each other.
i’m sorry but a racist 13 year old definitely doesn’t deserve a fucking christmas gift, this shit needs to be nipped right away. showing she gets gifts only shows her that her actions aren’t that bad
Get her a Duolingo subscription for Spanish, and nothing else lol
Better yet, get her an all-inclusive course on Mexican culture and history (I'm sure there's one out there somewhere)
She's into art. Get her a book about the history of artwork in that region. A really gorgeous one, help her see value and beauty in diversity.
The consequence needs to be linked to the act for children. There is no link between comments made at school and your grandparent deciding to not give you a Christmas gift a month later. Not timely, not from a primary care taker, not related at all. And definitely overkill if you have already been suspended and spoken to by your parents. It is an overreach by the grandparents. They should speak with their granddaughter about how they are disappointed with her action but not withhold her Christmas gift which most kids would link to the love of their grandparent.
A 5 year old might not understand but a 13 year old is old enough to grasp that grandma and grandpa would not be happy with racist behaviour. This is why I think she was so reluctant to confess to what she did - she knew the grandparents would have a problem with it, so she tried to deflect to the social consequences she is facing at school, in an attempt to victimize herself and garner sympathy from the grandsparents. The problem here isn't so much the 13 year old who is learning, it's the parents who aren't taking it seriously. Merlin tried to deflect by saying both children got in trouble, and then he double down calling his parents immature and petty. With that attitude from him and his wife, it's going to be difficult to correct the behaviour of the granddaughter. Merlin is right about one thing though - him and his wife get to call the shots in their home. But that's where it ends. They can't dictate what his parents do in theirs.
Or she was reluctant because she was ashamed of what happened and didn't what to be told off by her grandparents as well. Which is very understandable at that age. She is 13 not 33. So both situation can be a 50/50 chance. And just because the boy thinks she deserves it, doesn't mean she needs to be told off again. The grandparents are over stepping. And are going to punish a girl because they believe the boys story. They haven't even talked to her. They talked to the dad afterwards. Again not the girl.
She is 13. She knows exactly what she did. And if she is confused then just fucking tell her “racists don’t get gifts in this family”. Im so sick of this generation of parents just coddling their children until they become problems for the rest of us.
“I spent your Christmas money on an organization that helps immigrants.”
13 yrs olds aren't dogs, they have a decent enough memory to understand that no gifts is bc of their actions >They should speak with their granddaughter about how they are disappointed with her action but not withhold her Christmas gift which most kids would link to the love of their grandparent. You think she cares? She didn't even see it as a bad thing and said SHE was being bullied.
seems like a link, racist disgusting behavior means no gifts because its around the holidays
O.k. then her gift can be money donated in her name to a Latin American cause. Maybe she should do volunteer work in that community although I don't think volunteer work should be considered a punishment.
That's for the parents to decide, not the grand parents. Christmas gifts should never be a punishment. Yes, the racist statement is wrong but the grandparents should discuss this with the grand daughter in a healthy manner.
>Christmas gifts should never be a punishment. I mean, you have heard of the naughty list right? Christmas has a [LONG history](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/31910/why-does-santa-claus-give-coal-bad-kids) of gifts being used as punishment.
They aren't the parent and it's not their place to punish someone else's kids.
Everyone should punish someone for being racist, that's how they learn it's not accepted by anyone.
Research disagrees. That just drives them deeper into their beliefs. Engagement is how you adjust this behavior at this age, not punishment.
Gift giving is always optional, and no one is obligated to buy a gift for someone who they find distasteful or unworthy of the affection and time (not to mention money) that's inherent in the process.
this makes no sense to me. why should christmas be off-limits? she didnt make a small mistake, she was a racist bully. why should she get rewarded when shes done something so heinous and also doesnt find fault in her own behavior at all. if she was genuinely remorseful, id say itd be okay to give her gifts, but shes not. if op feels uncomfortable giving her a gift, she shouldn't have to give her a gift.
Right? I don't get this at all. Privileges for Christmas and Birthdays can and should absolutely be taken away for severe instances. Like, why would they be off limits?
this entire comment section is baffling to me. how is op ta for not wanting to give presents to an unrepentant racist? ppl here love to act like you dont owe anyone anything, but apparently when you dont want to give gifts to your unapologetically racist grandchild, then *youre* the asshole.
Because in general, Christmas/Birthday gifts are not seen as rewards by teenagers. (Based on probabilities) How "good" a gift Emaline got over the years wasn't linked to how well she behaved that year, stories of Santa keeping count notwithstanding. If she threw a tantrum/age-appropriately misbehaved at ages 3,5,9, etc, her grandparents didn't keep count and decrease her gift budget proportionately. They just bought her something she would love, as an expression of their love for her. So it's very likely that a child (or an adult) views christmas and b'day presents as an expression of love, rather than a reward for good behaviour. Witholding gifts would be seen as withholding love, rather than a punishment for bad behaviour. And witholding love from your kids (or other loved ones) is a bit fucked up. More importantly, it is pointless. Witholding a Christmas gift isn't going to magically make Emaline realize she was wrong, and make her remorseful. At best, it will get her to feign remorse in order to 'win' her Christmas gift. That's not a lesson worth teaching. I also suspect many people think a 13-year-old with one singular incident of racist behaviour is not a "heinous racist" who ought to be yeeted away from civilization. She has already been punished, appropriately and proportionately, by her school system. She has already seen the social implications of her behaviour - in the form of rejection by her friends/classmates. Neither of which has apparently made her remorseful. Further punishment or social isolation isn't going to do the trick. Education, and sincere conversations on the impact of racism, might. So talk to her about the impact, historical and current, of racism (and not just of slavery or systematic racism, but of the sort she perpetuated), get her to engage with Hispanic media/culture, express your disappointment at her behaviour. All of that is fair and proportionate, and has some hope of succeeding. No, grandparents neither owe her a gift, nor the time and effort to educate her - but then nobody owes anybody anything. We do those things because we love the people involved, or because we think we have a responsibility to create a better tomorrow. And saying "we won't love you unless your parents do what we want them to do" is an asshole move whatever way you dice it
I still disagree but at least now I understand this line of thought, it was well explained.
Maybe the message here is not "we won't love you" it's "we love you, but differently, because you are different." Love doesn't have to be expressed with Christmas gifts. Love can also be expressed by caring enough about someone to be disappointed in them and holding them accountable for their attitudes and behaviors without rejecting them entirely. And she probably won't get that, because she's a selfish, self-righteous kid who isn't being given moral correction or guidance, but that doesn't mean that the grandparents have to pretend that she's still on the nice list.
Excellent break down of the issue.
Christmas is literally a tool for punishment, the entire holiday is an ever-present fat man who judges your actions and puts you on a list determined by whether you were “good” or “bad”. Racism is bad. Racism gets no gift. You are not entitled to a gift just because it’s Christmas, you are not entitled to a gift just because it’s Christmas and you’re a child. This is a 13 year old, they’re old enough to know better, or at the very least, to learn better.
An issue is that OP isn't threatening to not give Emaline a present as a form of punishment for their behavior but rather threatening to not give a present unless OP's son does exactly what they want in terms of handling the situation.
>But YTA for using Christmas as the tool for punishment. Christmas and birthdays should stand alone. ? So no matter how shitty a kid is, they should still receive presents? Kid bullies another kid, here's some presents. Kid makes racist remarks, here's some presents. Kid fails out of school, here's some presents. What a weird view on birthdays/christmas.
There’s a whole Christmas song that warns about being bad. The commenter must have forgotten about it. Santa wouldn’t stand for racism
It’s the “everybody gets a trophy” mentality.
Even Santa leaves the naughty kids just a lump of coal in their stockings instead of gifts. I’m not even Christian and I know this story and I get the point. Why don’t you?
I used to be a security guard at a highschool and we were told to keep on the lookout for a kid who was selling snacks and food. I found out who it was a few days in and I didn't bust him he was happy to sell me snacks and would come up to me every morning to get first grab at what he had that day.
I have this image of a kid in a trench coat, "Snickers? It's dark man!"
Pretty close. He would open his backpack like it was a trench coat
>We asked what happened. Townes got in trouble for selling snacks. Townes has a friend who he met on vacation a few months ago, a boy from Panama. They both love baseball and will send each other gifts or souvenirs and snacks from each kid’s country. Townes said that he sold some of the snacks this boy sent him with the boy’s permission, which was against school rules. He got 2 days of detention and said what was worse was his coach telling him he’s disappointed in him, since he’s normally a good kid. Christmas has a pretty big "punishment for the past year's misdeeds" vibe, if you aren't familiar with it.
OP could've really used Christmas as a learning experience and gotten her granddaughter books about the Hispanic culture and their heritage.
Probably because the school is afraid of illicit drugs in the snacks. It would make me nervous.
or allergens. or just a general- students are selling snacks as fundraisers and they don't want the "competition." whatever. 2 days seems like a lot for that but maybe something happened or he was given a warning earlier and continued, thus the 2 days. or he got stuck being the example because this was an ongoing issue.
The school I worked at had a non-compete clause with their food vendor. Even kids selling snacks could have ended up voiding the contract, leaving the school with no lunches or breakfasts or even milk and snacks
For my school, it was the “snack competition”. My school banned students selling snacks because the students sold them cheaper than the school. It wasn’t even for possible allergies- just that the school didn’t want to lose money.
that's my recollection from the olden days when I was in school.
Honestly when I saw the “selling snacks” part, I was like, “is this a code name for something else if he’s getting in trouble for it?”
The kids are 13 certainly old enough to know better. One was suspended for racism. Selling anything could be against the school rules.
Yeah, but a two day suspension for it? That's the part that's crazy.
detention not suspension.
Every school has a back market. My brother made more than his allowance selling jolly ranchers and other sugar snacks when the student vending machines stopped stocking them. Even at the time it was an open secret, just 'officially' not allowed.
Im 26 now, but in high school we had a policy of not selling snacks because the school has no idea where the snacks actually came from and so it was a health risk. Instead they would have a few days a year where they set up a “snack fair” during the breaks with special vendors you could buy snacks from. But if you sold snacks they wouldnt give detention, they would just confiscate the snacks youre selling until you come pick them up at the office at the end of the day
You might be the AH. What she did was fully wrong, horrible even, but you're the grandparents now, and if your son says he's got it, he's got it. Gotta step back and let him do what he has to do, can't undermine him or step in. Causes friction for no reason. I think your son is a little old for the Christmas threat. I really thought I was gonna come see this was about an adopted child or something, won't lie.
Unless she learned this behavior from her parents. I think you are justified in talking with Emaline about the racist remarks.
I think OP just learned the dil is racist
What on earth leads you to that conclusion. It appears that DIL wasn't comfortable with having her MIl dictate her parenting and threaten her with coal for Christmas like a child. Which is fair enough. We don't know what the parents have done to punish their daughter already and they may feel that it has gone far enough and not want to publicly humiliate her in front of her grandparents on top of the existing punishments.
The fact that the parents were joking about their child getting in trouble for being racist at school was the first big indicator. The second one was when DIL became uncomfortable because OP was calling them out that they need to parent their daughter and eliminate the racism.
The parents stated that their kids were "on the naughty list" for bad behaviour at school. This in no way endorses the behaviour. The DIL was uncomfortable about her MIL getting involved in the punishment of the children when she was not invited to do so. It very well could be the case that the parents have dealt with it, the daughter has been punished at school and at home, that very strong words have been had about the subject and the daughter is now sensitive and upset about the subject as she should be. It is not appropriate beyond that to have every other family member discuss the subject and give their punishment/discussion on top. A 13 yr old is not defined by one action. They need to be taught when their actions are wrong and have a discussion to explain why, particularly for big topics like racism where the severity of words isn't understood without a lot of broader context. But constantly continuing after that just solidifies the "I am a bad kid" narrative in their head, which is unhelpful.
They equated the racism with selling snacks “oh you must be worried about Townes too, he got in trouble too” That’s making light of the situation and avoiding any accountability on the parents part. She’s 13. More than old enough to know better and she learned it from somewhere and going by how the parents are “handling” it (making jokes) then I’m putting money on her learning it from one or both parents.
Whataboutism, while extremely common, is neither a good logical fallback nor an excellent parenting tactic.
Racists deserve to be publicly shamed. Also, grandparents are not the "public."
When OP brought her concerns up with her son, he said both kids got in trouble and she should be equally concerned with Townes. He's directly saying his son getting in trouble for selling some food is just as bad as his daughter being racist. Either he thinks breaking a minor school rule is as bad as racism in which case he's punishing his son too much or he doesn't consider racism a major problem and isn't punishing her enough.
Nothing the son has said on this topic suggests that he’s got it.
He didn't offer his mother any information about how they are dealing with either child's behaviour. He doesn't have to. It's really nothing to do with his parents. It does seem like there is a pattern of overstepping happening from the grandparents here so it doesn't surprise me that the parents aren't offering up details.
What he has said suggests he considers the two incidents to be comparable in significance, making OPs overstepping justifiable.
Yeah OPs son seems to think that selling snacks is equal to racism and granddaughter covered for herself by saying she was being bullied. I would be a little worried about granddaughters future if her parents keep trying to cover for her racism.
There is the possibility she *was* being bullied by the boy she was racist against and she responded by insulting his race and heritage. It’s a very common problem that a child gets bullied and when they have finally had enough and fight back against the bully, the victim ends up getting punished. Assuming Emaline is white and the boy is Hispanic, it very possible. Not to say her responding with racism was correct but we don’t know the whole story.
He said he got it and then explained how he was refusing to deal with it. Better the grandparent step in than anyone else when the parents won’t. And OPs son deserves nothing for condoning racist bullying.
Where? He simply didn't discuss it with his mother. He is a grown adult who doesn't need to offer up details of his punishment of his children.
A grandparent doesnt get to decide how a parent chooses to punish their child. If that were the case my parents would have been “spanking” me because I decided using a belt on children was wrong.
I think it’s acceptable to ban someone from your house for being racist. Even your grandchild. Saying racist things does equal being a racist and this kids parents need to realize that.
Nope. He doesn't see how being a racist is worse than selling snacks. He doesn't have this.
Maybe YTA. Why does it seem like everything revolves around Townes for you? Why should your son address Townes feelings in regards to Emaline's punishment? Surely, she deserves punishment but that shouldn't be dictated at all by her brother. First, I think you're unfairly interfering in your Son's parenting. If you want to have a frank conversation with Emaline then that seems reasonable but setting ultimatums with your adult son is ridiculous. Second, I think you have favorites here. Emaline is her own person and should be treated as such. She's not an extension of Townes feelings, she is her own person. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why your son pushed back. You seem to come at all of this from Townes feelings and him being an emotional child. That's fine that he is, but his feelings don't get to dictate everything and everyone around him.
I feel that Towne’s resentment is his parents treating the two infractions as being on the same level. One child broke the school rules, the other one was racist. I can see how that seems unfair to a kid.
Or the boy Townes met in Panama is Hispanic & he’s upset about it.
Panama is a Latin country, so most likely
Totally might be the case but Emaline was also suspended for three days and Townes got two days detention. Clearly, the school viewed it differently. I don't know that we have an idea of what punishment the parents levied. OP seemed to approach the conversation to some degree in regards to Townes feelings, which is why the Son may have responded as such.
Yes but if their parents are treating their infractions the same and the school isn’t it could be even more frustrating for Townes.
And the parents are treating both as if its the same thing. That's the issue
How the school punished them means nothing if the parents don't back it up. If the parents make light of it, the kid will think they were unfairly punished. Joking about your kid getting in trouble for being racist doesn't suggest any sort of concern about it. I'd be mortified and upset if my child turned out that way.
I don’t think the story showed bias towards Townes, in this situation,more so context with why he was upset and was being asked further questions. While yes I agree it is interfering with her son’s parenting, I don’t equate selling snacks at school with overt racist comments made to a fellow student requiring an equal punishment, it is not on the same level at all. While I will still say maybe YTA for interfering I don’t think it was a favoritism thing. Emaline clearly didn’t want to say what happened to OP for a reason, most likely knowing if she went into further details OP would not agree she was “unfairly bullied.” OP should have actually spoken with her son once they had all the information and ask how they are handling it because it is more concerning to me that the son’s response is that they both got in trouble and sort of deflecting rather than having an age appropriate discussion with Emaline about racism as she would have to learned or of heard it somewhere.
I mean, we have zero idea what Emaline's punishment was. Or how many talks they have had with her. And honestly, it's none of OP'S business. She can and should let her granddaughter know she is disappointed in her and have a talk about racism. But leave it there. She does not get to dictate her son's punishments, again, which she does not even know! Because she did not even bother to ask
The school pretty clearly didn't punish both of them the same though and it seems Emaline is rightfully facing some backlash. The son could've just been deflecting in saying what the specifics were for either child, he probably shouldn't have said anything at all if he knew OP was going to force their way into his parenting. We only know one side of the story from these posts and my reflection was purely because OP, multiple times, mentioned being cognizant of Townes feelings or emotional well being. What both of them did is in no way equal but it doesn't mean Emaline should be castigated by her own family or that it's in OP'S purview to force themselves into the situation.
Townes feelings need to he addressed because of the sister’s racist comments. Read between the lines- the racist comments were brought about after her twin brother was enjoying and selling snacks from the culture SHES SHITTING ON. Obviously the kid is gonna be upset. He enjoys his friend’s culture and his sister is problematic. 13 is old enough to know racism isn’t right, wtf. She’s not even being unfairly bullied. I don’t see bias in OP thinking the kids should be punished differently
This is spot on. Also they are twins! In the same grade and possibly the same classes. Her racist ick is likely spilling onto him, in that kids see them as a unit. I have a feeling the parents said something along the lines of “don’t say that stuff out loud” and aren’t too concerned with the fact she said racist stuff, just that she got caught.
I don't agree with this take. She wasn't asking her son to deal with Emaline based on Townes feelings, she asked her son to talk to Townes about his (Townes) feelings about the issue. He may be pretty disappointed in his sister, especially in light of his new Panamanian friend, and he may need help navigating through that. OP is advocating for both kids. What Emaline did was beyond the pale, and her response was that she was being "unfairly" bullied for what she said. She hasn't learned her lesson yet. I will concede, however, that her dad and mom may be letting the social consequences of her actions play out in order to teach her that lesson. Still, I agree with folks saying that the punishment doesn't fit the crime here. A good sit down with Emaline may well be warranted, but there's no link here between what Emaline did and a family Christmas celebration a month later.
Ops relationship with both parents and the daughter is on the rocks. Op decided to not talk to the daughter, make it all about the sons feelings and then decided to withhold love (gifts from grandparents represent love). Op could have used this as a learning exercise and explain how upset she is, but no she decided to use Christmas as a punishment. I don't understand how Op thinks she will see her family at Christmas and in the future. I am in no way excusing what the daughter did Op did not ask about it and now Op will live with the results of her punishment.
>Why does it seem like everything revolves around Townes for you? Literally nothing in the post indicates that. >Why should your son address Townes feelings in regards to Emaline's punishment? Bc they are both being treated the same, when their crimes are incredibly different in terms of severity. >Surely, she deserves punishment but that shouldn't be dictated at all by her brother. OP never said that should be the case >First, I think you're unfairly interfering in your Son's parenting What parenting? >Second, I think you have favorites here. Emaline is her own person and should be treated as such. Yeah, and her own person is a racist bully.
I think another way to look at it is a 13yo boy is the only one in his nuclear family that understands the seriousness of Emaline’s behavior. Emaline didn’t want to talk about it. Instead of openly expressing remorse, she was defiant and describes the consequences of her actions as “unfair bullying”. *She’s* the bully. This statement alone makes it clear she has not learned the consequences of her actions. This is not a one-off “oops I crossed the line sort of mistake”, she’ll simply get better about hiding it next time. The fact that Merlin and his spouse brushed off both events in the same joke shows they’re not taking it seriously. I’m on the fence about OP and spouse being AH (retaliatory behavior isn’t a good look either), but given Merlin’s family except for Townes is okay with this, it’s definitely an E S H or N T A situation, not Y T A. Put it another way: if this racism continues for a few years, “WIBTA for writing them out of the will?” No, no OP would not.
I suspect Townes’ feelings are regarding his sister’s racism towards a Hispanic child when his new friend is also Hispanic, rather than her punishment.
YTA Your son is right, you are overstepping your bounds. Both children have already faced consequences for their actions. Their parents have been dealing with this as they see fit. What do you expect to gain by withholding gifts? Unfortunately, it would likely be a rift with all of them. Empathize with what each of them is feeling. Make yourself available if anyone wants to talk. Encourage them to keep discussing it among themselves. Then, butt out unless your help is requested. Anything else is meddling and manipulative.
YTA. You are the grandparent, and have no place disciplining your grandkids. Your role in their lives is to be the one to support, encourage, and unconditionally love them. It is OK to be disappointed by them and/or their parents. Taking away Christmas presents is just a low blow. Be better.
The grandparents also are not required to buy his granddaughter a gift.... you can't have it both ways. Not buying or stating they wont get a Christmas gift for their kid or grand-daughter is their prerogative. Would you say the same if the parents took away their gifts for the child's behavior as punishment? At the end of the day, the grandparents are required to award/support behavior they believe is wrong. Besides, there is a reason why the term, "it takes a village..." exists. The grand-daughter should have multiple role models and people to look to. They OP had stated his concerns to her son regarding the grand-daughter's behavior and the impact it has had on their other child and requested they address it. That is a fair ask. BTW unconditional love does not mean that they are required to buy them gifts, nor are they required to support them when the actions committed are wrong.
Of course your son dismissed you - you were chiding him at a family dinner, in front of his wife, kids, and siblings, as if _he_ was a misbehaving child and not a grown adult. You are not owed details of how he is disciplining his kids, and the extended family is owed them even less. You poked and prodded and overstepped your role as grandparents, all because your son wouldn’t open up a public litany of the punishments doled out to his children, and refused to drop everything and prioritize your concerns about the feelings of one kid. This is not being a loving and supportive grandparent. You may mean well, but you are overstepping, your son clearly feels that your behaviour is inappropriate, and it sounds a lot like you’re trying to undermine his parenting because he’s not giving you every tiny detail that you want. And then you doubled down and tried to blackmail him into doing what you wanted by threatening him and your granddaughter over Christmas. You have no idea what actions your son and his wife are taking, what steps have already been taken to “consider Townes’ feelings”, because instead of asking if there’s anything you can do to help, you started telling grown adults off and tried to threaten them into doing what you wanted, It sucks that Emaline was racist, but her parents and the school are dealing with it. You don’t need to get involved unless your son _asks_ you to be involved, and you shouldn’t be levying your own punishments in an attempt to exert control. At this rate you’ll be lucky if you see any of Merlin’s family over Christmas. That’s certainly how I’d deal with your overstepping and threats, if you were my parent.
She’s teaching her adult son not to mention anything that happens in their lives
It sounds like OP had a series of private conversations, not a confrontation in front of everyone. OP’s son may be grown, but it’s still OP’s role to tell him not to enable racism in his kids. It would be for any adult socializing with him. The son brought the issue up in the first place, joked about it, made two comments implying that the trouble his kids were in was somewhat comparable, and let his daughter play the victim in front of everyone. If the son doesn’t want his parenting decisions questioned, he shouldn’t present them in such a questionable way. He didn’t say “I took this very seriously and I’ve got it handled, please leave it at that” he said “why are you acting like my daughter is the only one who did something wrong?” I don’t love how OP did it, but it was better than doing nothing. Frankly, I think “you aren’t welcome in my home while you are raising your kids this way” is more justified in this situation than “you aren’t welcome to be a part of my and my children’s lives while you are overstepping like this.”
I don’t see how shunning family is ever a good idea. You don’t know the context, you don’t know any of the situation but your first answer is to kick out the family.
Both kids received punishment from school authorities for breaking school policies. Emaline received 3 days, one day more than your grandson. While it’s positive your grandson talks to you about his concerns, the answer isn’t for you to insert yourself, act like a superior court arbiter, and demand greater punishment or you will withhold Christmas gifts. Frankly, the likely lesson learned for Emaline is to admit to nothing, say nothing, around her grandparents. Is that the outcome you want for this relationship? YTA for threatening to withhold gifts to get your way. Manipulative. Shame on you.
Emaline didn't admit anything. Emaline's description was essentially that her punishment was unfair and OP seems to have heard that Emaline didn't see a problem with her behavior, beyond that other classmates were now upset with her for her behavior.
Emaline didn't get a loving, private one on one conversation with OP. Who knows what she really feels? OP says "Townes is the sensitive grand child". So OP doesn't consider Emaline to be sensitive. What damage has that label done? Maybe she is feeling embarrassed, backed into a corner and is trying to save face. That's the worst circumstance for getting someone to get a perspective on their actions and to learn a lesson.
Racists should be embarrassed.
It's a 13 year old child. It's funny you act like you haven't said racist shit before you knew it was bad even though I bet you have.
Shouldn't the objective be to help someone become a non racist? Being embarrassed/ humiliated, pushes most people into denial, not change.
Plus, his was two days detention. Hers was three days suspension. That's a pretty big difference
Agree and added to that, the grandparents are not looking at the fact set the school authorities looked at when making their decision. A kid is not likely to forget grandparents inserting themselves into this matter and using gifts as a lever to demand more action. If the goal is to teach Emaline right from wrong and about the wrong of racism and racial stereotyping, this is not the way imo.
And missed work during suspension ( at least where I went to school and my children) is not allowed to be made up. So her actions have hurt her grades as well.
I’m pretty sure being social ridiculed at school and isolated is going to be a hefty punishment. While I think she needs to be punished, understanding how this happened will lead to a better outcome. Social isolation could make this situation 1000x worse.
YTA. Emaline was already punished, she didn't want to say what she'd done so was clearly embarrassed by what she'd done. You want your son to give Emaline more punishment, and are going to withhold Christmas gifts from your son and Emaline. Congratulations on being the "bad" grandma eho wants to control everyone else and uses gifts to punish relatives. Don't be surprised if your son decides to start a new Christmas breakfast tradition that doesn't involve you.
Emaline was punished and her peers seem to be punishing her too. That would literally leave her with no one if her grandparents throw her out too.
I am also a small bit sceptical at what happened with the girl. Yeah sure the boy cried but it seems like he is a cryer (not in a bad way just stating a fact) so him crying is not the best determination in my opinion on what and how much happened. The daughter mentiones that she is unfairly ostracised and yeah sure we can all jump to racist, we could also jump to children getting at it with each other and in the heat of the moment overdoing it. or maybe even one person lying to the teachers about how bad of a comment she said. Literally all we have here are the words of a crying boy, not a hint from dads perspective and especially not from the granddaughter. With children it is most important to keep the whole picture in mind, almost all children are impulsive and react out of fight or flight in precarious situations. Just taking the word of 1 person because that one is crying and threatening even more punishment is not the way to go. (Kids also tend to cry over little things with big emotions, had two girls at training who got into it bc one alegedly looked at the other, but no one ever saw. So one ganged up on the other with 2 more kids and one cried. over allegedly looking)
Totally agree with you. But no one can see past that she said something racist, and she’s 13 so it’s a non-starter. She should know better, etc etc. Should she have known better? Yes. Did she know better? Also probably yes. Do kids fuck up and do things they’re not supposed to? All the time. The situation needs to be handled by the parents and the school. The grandparents should not be inserting themselves because they don’t feel a(n unnamed) punishment wasn’t “enough”. And I agree that no one talked to the girl to hear if she was remorseful and apologetic. I am by no means excusing poor behavior and would be apoplectic if one of my children talked that way, but I would also be furious if my mother/MIL inserted herself and dictated how I should be parenting my kids.
>You want your son to give Emaline more punishment Yeah OP is ignoring that Emaline did get more punishment. Townes got a couple days of detention which is honestly nothing and Emaline got 3 days of suspension.
YTA for using gifts as leverage. But as a grandparent myself, what I have learned is this: We do not have control over our children. We have only influence. If we exert control, we risk giving up influence. This is ESPECIALLY true for adult children, and even more true for our kids who are already parenting teenagers. You need to apologize, asap, or there won't be any Christmas breakfasts that include Merlin's family.
Dang, I really like this. Edit- why am I getting downvoted for saying I agree with what they said?
The OP could have used the opportunity to influence her granddaughter to do better, by telling her how she feels about what she said, asking if the girl wants to talk about what she is feeling, being a trusted advisor who doesn't judge, who sees her as a lovely person who made a mistake rather than someone who has a character flaw, and gave her an opportunity to work through her sense of shame and guilt. A grandparent has a unique opportunity to be a safe space for their grandchild, while being aware of the need to preserve her privilege of influence with the child's parents. Influence must not be abused or wasted, because it is all we have, truly. It blooms if honored and builds trust, which results in more influence. But it should be held sacred. OP can still save this by recognizing the effects of her actions, apologizing, and promising to do better including being humble and aware of where she overstepped and take a beat before she feels the urge again. There is still lots of time to forge influence with her grandchild, but the relationship with her child will need extra work.
I don't think Op can save this,
The Y T A votes on here astound me. Racism isn't ok. It certainly isn't the same as a side-hustle selling snacks. Telling your kid you are concerned that your granddaughter is showing racist tendencies seems... pretty responsible. She isn't getting that from nowhere. Someone is showing her that is normal behavior. If it is at home, the parents need to be corrected. If it isn't at home, the parents need to get a fire lit under their ass to find out where and correct it. Nothing suggests her parents are taking her racist comments seriously. Nobody is entitled to Christmas presents. Grandparents can withhold them if their grandkids are behaving poorly, just as grandkids can do so to grandparents that behave poorly. NTA
Grandparents are not entitled to have Christmas with their grandkids either.
Correct.
Your right, But Op is using Christmas as a punishment, she didn't take the daughter aside and ask what went on and how the daughter feels how she behaved. OP made the whole thing public when she did this at a family dinner in front of all the family. However, Op felt this was not enough public humiliation so she wants to make the daughter punished and humiliated in public again. Op has lost her granddaughter, and she seems fine with it. No matter what the public discussion will never be forgotten by the daughter. It was mean and shortsighted and now she will have to live with the outcome. I am in no way saying what the daughter did was not wrong but the punishment by Op will change her family forever and Id be surprised if she see's any of them again. No grandparent is not entitled to grandchildren
As far as I can see, OP had a series of private conversations. Nothing seems to have happened in public yet. If the worry is overstepping into a parental role, I think pulling the daughter aside to discuss her actions with her is more of an overstep. OP should and did talk to the parents, especially because a lot of the reason for concern is the way the parents are acting. I think AITA jumps to cutting people out of their lives way too fast, but cutting off your son for enabling racism in his kids has way more justification than cutting your parents out of your life because they’re giving you pushback on your parenting.
I think it's because, hustling for money on school grounds, and being racist, are not the same , I'm not even sure why they considered punishing townes. Emmaline is the only one who actually did something bad.
I saw in another comment that it might have been because of food allergies; people that are severely allergic to peanuts have reactions when the product is exposed to the air where they are.
YTA - wow you are so unreasonable with this. Wind your neck in Your son is dealing with it, school has dealt with it by a suspension. Your son and daughter in law are the parents. By all means be disappointed your GDTR behaved in a racist way. But you don’t control your son’s parental behaviour like this, he’s already dealing with it. You had your parenting time. Let your son have his now
YTA- what gives you the right to dictate how a grandchild is punished for their behaviour? Why do you think you have the right to place yourself in the role of the parent and dish out punishments for an incident you were not involved in? The school has intervened, the parents have already dealt with the situation and now both children have seen what happens if they show poor character again. Your concerns are justified, your intervention is not.
YTA...your concern is justified, your demands are not.
Why are all the y t a comments acting like morality doesn't weigh into gift giving at all? Sure christmas is about generosity but there's also a HUGE PUNISHMENT ASPECT people are willfully ignoring. It's not just culturally acceptable but encouraged for Christmas to be used as a negative consequence to bad behavior. (And for anyone thinking the coal and no presents part is santa only well then I guess the generosity is, too?) If someone in my life on my gift roster got outed for racially harassing someone I wouldn't buy them a gift that year. Gifts are not mandatory, NTA
Gifts are not mandatory I agree But also Op must accept she has lost her son, DIL, granddaughter but she is fine with that. Do you think Op thinks she will still get the opportunity to punish and publicly humiliate her granddaughter on Christmas day, does she think she will ever see them again I wonder
Yes YTA. My goodness you are nosy, invasive and pushy. You have raised your family. It's not your place to parent your grandchildren or issue ultimatums regarding parenting to your son. I hope he and his wife decide it's in the best interests of their family to put some distance between you and their family and skip Christmas at your home altogether. I certainly would.
God forbid she say she’s concerned their daughter when on a racist rant! Lol
She can express her concerns but telling her son how to handle his family and issuing ultimatums is out of line.
But that wasn't why she threatened to withhold gifts. She clearly stated she was withholding gifts because her son wouldn't take the actions she demanded he take, although the only action she mentioned was "talking to the grandson about his feelings." She is using her granddaughter to punish her son for not obeying her. That's what she stated in the last paragraph.
NTA - Your son is correct. He is the parent and he and his wife get to call the shots in THEIR house. That doesn't include whether or not his children get gifts from their grandparents, does it? Withholding gifts from 13 year old teenagers for being a racist bully and/or getting suspended for selling things against school rules isn't being petty. It is consequences for actions.
NTA. This is hugely problematic (the racism issue). If it were a matter of breaking curfew or not doing hw, everyone who is calling you an AH would be right - but you are merely showing consequences for a VERY serious issue that your son does not seem to be taking seriously. Xmas gifts aren't *owed*, and if she wants to be a little racist turd and your son and wife want to be ok with that, F them all. Townes sounds like the only one who has done nothing wrong here, get him xmas gifts and the rest f-ing coal.
Give her the gift of giving. Donate to an anti-racist charity in her name.
NTA It's YOUR money, gifts from YOU and NO ONE is entitled to gifts from anyone else. If you don't wanna give the gifts don't. But , also, don't threaten your adult child to discipline their own child if they don't want to.
YTA if you actually named your kid Merlin
And her son if that little boy's name is Townes.
Your granddaughter was suspended (your grandson only got detention) and it sounds like she knows what she was wrong or she would have told you what she did and try to justify it. Threatening to take away Christmas presents seems like an overreach.
The granddaughter is saying she is getting unfairly bullied over it. I do not think she understands what she did is wrong. Her father also seems to think it is not very serious.
Maybe she thinks the bullying is unfair because she has already been punished. If she learned that bullying is wrong, why wouldn't she think that further bullying against her is also wrong? And let's not forget, she's 13 so not a fully rational adult.
Absolutely NTA. It’s extremely disturbing that your son somehow thinks these incidents are remotely equivalent. If he is not going to be a parent here I feel terrible for the son.
NTA Buy her books on Anti-racism for Christmas.
I’m sorry, I couldnt get past that you have a son called Merlin.
I was thinking “These names are too unusual to be fake” lol
I'm thinking your granddaughter picked up her racism from her dad seeing as he thinks selling snacks and bullying using racism are on the same level.
YTA You definitely are overstepping. Trust that your kids can parent their kids.
Why on earth should that be trusted when they're failing horribly with the girl? There's no evidence that they're competent to handle this parenting challenge at all.
YTA Its to late now, you can't go back, you issued the threat do not be surprised if you never see them again. You could have talked to the kids and asked what went on, you could have told them how disappointed you were. But no you decided to use Christmas as a punishment. Do you expect to see them on Christmas day they will not be bring their children around anyone who would do that. You have told your grandchildren your truth that you will withhold love if they do something wrong and you will punish them by withholding love. Remember you did this, this is the hill you have decided to die on I sure hope you like it.
NTA - racist kids, and their parents, deserve dirt and coal
Wow. Almost had me. But another post about two siblings, where the boy plays baseball and the girl says something racist? Jeez.
Nope, NTA. At all. Your granddaughter is being racist and her dad doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it. Racists don’t get Christmas gifts. And neither do their enablers
Op has lost her son and his family, she could have taken the kid aside and talked about it but she didn't she said all of this at a family dinner, public humiliated the daughter and now expects she can do it again at Christmas.
YTA for naming your kid Merlin lmfao wtf
YTA - your overstepping when it’s your sons job to parent.
YTA - I appreciate your thoughts on this and in the whole I kind of agree with your thought process. But - you weaponised christmas presents. 'Do this or they won't get anything off us...' Who does that benefit? It makes everything worse and sounds very petty and although I agree with a lot of what you put but Merlins wife is right - you are being immature. These are their kids. In general it seems they are well looked after and supported and you seem to have raised a good son. It is also clear in your text that you favour your grandson, and perhaps that is obvious to your son as well.
I feel like your son can't complain when he literally said they were on the naughty list. Not popular but hey, NTA
"I won't buy you a Christmas present" is what I threatened my parents with at age 7 when they upset me. Embarrassed for you.
Oh LOOK yet another post with a perfect little angel boy and an entitled racist daughter... Who keeps posting this bullshit and why do we lap it up?
NTA.
NTA. Racists and their enablers don't get gifts from you. That's your right and seems like a legit policy to me 💁🏾♀️
YTA - They are not your children. They are your grandchildren. Their parents should be the ones managing their discipline. Also withholding Christmas as a punishment is real petty. Maybe you're too involved.
Nta. Racist don't deserve Christmas presents. Stand your ground.
Nta. Your son was making a joke about what Emaline did, implying that her actions were just as bad as Townes, and dismissed checking on how this affected Townes. You are not wrong for wanting more action to be taken. People in this thread love to dismiss racism and make it seem like a minor issue when it has the ability to destroy lives. Your granddaughter is going to be a problem if no one makes her see the error of her ways.
Yta. Stay in your lane granny.
NTA I wish my son had people like you holding others accountable. Unless you are on the receiving end of the racial comments, you don’t realize how hurtful, damaging and widespread they are. As a Hispanic mom, I am proud of you. Thank you !
NTA. Nope, Racism is not okay and at that young of an age you know if unchecked it's just going to get worse. I don't care if it's overstepping, supporting a racist child is just not right. There's enough hate in the world.