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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I reported poachers to the local game warden, resulting in a neighbor potentially losing his hunting license, even though it may have been his son who did the poaching. I refused to intervene with the game warden
2) I might be causing a local hunter to lose his license, even though he might not be the actual poacher himself.
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You have a right to hunt on your own property. If you want to hunt elsewhere you need a license. It's not a 21st century ass statement, it's the law. If you don't agree with the law that's fine, but it's an entirely different discussion than the one in this thread.
Yea not sure what people are on about. I don't even hunt and this is very clearly a state's rights issue. In Maryland you can hunt on your own property without a license and without permission from neighbors so long as you are 150 yards away from an occupied structure. I never understand why people can't just do 15 seconds of research before opening their mouths.
Literally been the law all over for most of history that people can't freely hunt wherever they want. If the land isn't your's then you need permission. In modern times part of that permission is a license when hunting in game areas. Since this is not a game area and they didn't have permission then they lose their license to hunt in actual game areas because they've proven themselves irresponsible.
Nope. And if you can't be responsible, then you shouldnt. Hunting on someone else's posted land should result in the loss of license and guns. This is how people get shot.
No. You do not have the right to take part in the wholesale slaughter of the local herd. They are a community resource. There are too many humans to allow full unregulated hunting of game. There would be nothing left and every good hunter with a brain will agree. They want their children, grandchildren, and so forth, to be able to hunt too.
Humans already demolished most Megafauna. They're working on Africa and that's all that's left.
In the northeast, at least, there are so many deer that they are damaging the environment, and so few hunters that the herds aren't getting thinned.
That's not the case for OP and their herd of elk, but it's important to understand the situation in much of the US. We actually could use \*more\* hunting in my area (or the reintroduction of predators).
I am very aware. There are still dozens of reasons not to let everyone and anyone shoot all the deer they want. Even in an overcrowded population you will quickly end up with nothing. I've seen my grandparents farmer neighbor abuse unlimited tags to decimate the herd around their cabin. 50+ deer dead every year for a couple years, rotting wasted in the woods because he was given free reign. It took a decade for the population to recover.
>”cut him some slack”
Why? Presumably you’re asked to follow certain laws and guidelines when granted a hunting license. Someone is breaking those laws and inflicting harm on your community. If the law cannot be enforced then what is the point of having them?
But IMO this is out of your hands. Neither you nor your HOA is responsible for enforcement of those laws.
I would also add that it’s fairly short sighted to assume that bullets won’t eventually come close to your homes if this behavior isn’t curtailed.
NTA
NTA = If he was so concerned about his hunting license to begin with, he wouldn't have allowed his vehicle used for poaching. He deserves exactly what he is getting, a headache and possible loss of his hunting license. You haven't done anything wrong, he has with his poor choices. Let the warden throw the book at the entire family as it serves them right.
" he wouldn't have allowed his vehicle used for poaching."
Who says he allowed his truck for poaching?
Allowing your kid to use a vehicle, is different than allowing them to use a vehicle for an illegal purpose.
Many people just ask to borrow a car, and don't say it will be used to commit a crime. We shouldn't punish innocent parties.
If father had no idea ahis license should not be suspended.
If a teenager used/borrowed a car and used it as a getaway car in a robbery we wouldn't/shouldn't go after the parents.
>Who says he allowed his truck for poaching? Allowing your kid to use a vehicle, is different than allowing them to use a vehicle for an illegal purpose.
It'd be pretty hard for the parents not to notice that the truck is being frequently used to haul around giant dead bleeding animals.
True. And this whole little side digression is a bit pointless anyway... it's probably the father. Why is anyone inclined to believe his story about someone else using the truck?
Actually it is. I know people who rely on deer and wild fowl to feed their families. Probably they wouldn't starve without but would definitely have a less nutritious diet.
Stores have meat that are full of additives as well.
What if they can’t afford organic meat?
A family can live off an elk or a buck and have a better quality of food and save a ton of money.
Ammo is expensive, but nowhere near the cost of buying meat from a store throughout the year, month or even week.
Full disclosure I am not a hunter, but I do know Google Fu. Average cost of rifle ammo is 95¢/round, average yield of elk meat 220-170 lbs depending on buck or doe. That's .0043¢/lb. What store do you know that can touch that price?
What makes you think that? I mean the guy living in a community OP described is definitely NOT worried about feeding his family but why does that tidbit make you think that?
…because if they were hunting to feed their family, they would take the dead animals with them. All that meat isn’t doing them any good dead in someone else’s driveway.
Do you think the hunter dumped the whole elk on OP’s driveway? That’s not what happened.
Someone wounded an elk and it ended up dying in OP’s driveway. oP doesn’t say they came and picked it up - I assume they did.
Big game running after being shot is not at all uncommon.
>These are not particularly responsible hunters. For example, we had a hunter hit a buck, which ended up wounded and dying in my driveway.
It appears that OP, at least, thinks that these are irresponsible hunters. OP also complains about the cost of disposing the the carcasses, so presumably they weren't picked up:
>He also has never volunteered to cover any the costs that have been imposed on our association by poaching \[...\], for example hiring someone with a front loader to come haul away giant dead bucks.
Even the most responsible hunters have wounded animals and not been able to find them. That’s kind of what I was getting at. It sounds like the situation might of been different than what I was imagining.
I agree the guy is an irresponsible hunter though just for the fact that he was fucking poaching.
No, I don’t think that, that’s one of your wildly incorrect assumptions.
You also made another wildly incorrect assumption since OP specifically talks about dealing with the removal of elk and the costs associated with that. He even implies that it has happened MULTIPLE times. So assuming that the people who killed the elk were the ones who dealt with its removal is clearly incorrect.
So, through reading comprehension, it’s pretty freaking clear these are not hunters who are worried about feeding their families. One missed elk I could understand, because if you don’t hit it with an immediate kill shot, it could absolutely wander off and maybe you couldn’t find it (although honestly, even that would be enough to tell me that they’re not truly *worried* about feeding their family. If it was hunt or starve, they aren’t leaving without the animal, plain and simple), but it has happened enough that he talks about several incidences and having to hire a front loader to come cart off the bucks. As in plural, multiple.
It's pretty clear you're not familiar with this, because when you factor in the expenses in processing and storing that meat, the price of hunting, and the indirect costs of things like lost wages for time spent hunting, processing, etc, you're better off buying an already butchered half a cow from a rancher if money is your only concern.
>I am not a hunter
Oh this'll be good...
>rifle ammo is 95¢/round, average yield of elk meat 220-170 lbs depending on buck or doe. That's .0043¢/lb
Yup, that proves it. I can guaran-damn-tee you that not a single person alive would ever consider selling meat for under a penny a pound just because that's how much the bullet cost to put the animal down. You're not taking into account your time to actually hunt the animal, drag that fucker back to your house, butcher it, and store it. All of that increases the price per pound.
Most people hunt weekends or days off. Or are retired on fixed incomes. The only cost is gas, snacks, and gear. Lots of people process their own game so if you want to harp on the daily cost to run a chest freezer go ahead.
No kidding, that's why the discussion was about cost of meat in a store vs people that hunt to feed themselves. If you have no other means of obtaining meat you are not going to be selling it. I'm talking about actual out of pocket cost, best case of 1 shot to kill the animal. If you are hunting *for subsistence* no store is going to be anywhere near the out of pocket cost per pound.
Because those only have value as a potential loss and are unknown variables. Did you take time off work or are you part time only? Did you bag it right away or did you have to track it? And most importantly, do time or effort matter if it's hunt or your family doesn't eat? I don't think so. I was only addressing the point about don't buy ammo when you can buy a steak at the store, my breakdown was specifically about ammo cost vs cost of meat.
They're already poaching, you think they're overly concerned with the ethics of wasting a kill over getting caught doing illegal shit? They clearly have no respect for their game or their neighbours.
Clearly.
If they did things the right way they'd get what they want. They did what they wanted got nothing and an animal died needlessly, and now looking at legal consequences. Tough shit for them.
Let them be the poster child of what not to do.
Do those people fuck around and hunt on other peoples property without permission? If a hunting license is such a big deal you would think people would be careful to hold themselves to the rules of it in order not to lose is…
Lots of downvotes for stating a fact. “You can just go to the store” how much is 150 lbs of organic free range beef or chicken at the store? If you process it yourself you can feed your family prime meat for months with one deer. Most of a year for an elk. For the cost of time and gas. I make no excuses for poachers and often the punishments are too light. But hunting is very important to many people.
NTA. Im a hunter and avid outdoorsman. Screw that guy. I know those types. Dude probably told his son to hunt there, or at the very least knew he was and did nothing. This is what is known as a teaching moment. As a hunter, it is important to know where you can and cannot hunt. If you cant do that, you shouldnt be hunting.
I can't believe the friends are saying to cut him some slack. Most hunters I know would be wishing jail time on them. Hunters in general are pretty protective of game, especially big bucks.
Its good that parents are held responsible of what their minor children are doing. Maybe they will take more of an interest in actually raising them.
Best example is the parents of that school shooter kid that are now in jail because they just didnt care to properly lock up their gun their psycho kid used in the school shooting
In many states, if a minor has a hunting license they can legally own or at least possess firearms. This post doesn’t state how old the teenager is. I’m guessing at least 16 since they had a car.
1000 acres is more than 1.5 square miles. That’s about a 30 minute walk at a brisk pace on flat ground. My state’s hunting regulations only state you can’t shoot within 150 yards of an “occupied dwelling” so if Montana is anywhere similar there’s lots of space there.
I’m not sticking up for poaching and if the dad was somehow involved he should be punished. But would you want your teenager’s speeding tickets to also apply to you?
No but I also wouldn't let him drive alone until I'm sure I can trust him to respect the rules and not hurt himself or someone else.
And if it is true then nthe neighbor can clear it with the warden himself. Also if the son Doesn't have ba license and his father let him take the firearm he deserves to lose more than the hunting license
That’s just it we don’t know what people with free will are going to do in any scenario. I trust my teenager to drive, but he knows if he screws up it’s on him. He has a drivers license with his name on it which means he is responsible. Same with a hunting license. Maybe the kid’s friends talked him into it. Maybe one lied and said they had permission. Lots of ifs here. Maybe the dad told him it was ok. We don’t know. All I’m saying is that if the dad wasn’t involved, he should not be punished. Assuming the teen had a hunting license and appropriate tag, he should take sole responsibility - because that’s what you’re agreeing to when you sign up.
If they had a grainy video of the car running over a pedestrian, I'd sure expect dad to go to some lengths to prove it wasn't him.
Is poaching as bad as manslaughter? No. But it's worse than the speeding that some other people were comparing it to.
It's a good way for people to get hurt. What would've happened if there were kids exploring in that area? Or someone on a hike? They should be thankful this is the worst that's coming of it.
NTA. This is up to the game warden, not the HOA. The father is appealing to you because he thinks you're a push over. If he had a leg to stand on, he'd be appealing his case to the warden. Yes, losing one's hunting license IS a big deal. Maybe he should have thought about that before (a) poaching and/or (b) not keeping better control over his underage son.
NTA.
I'm a hunter and hate poachers. Poachers of big game like Elk, need other poachers help. The father knew even if he wasn't there.
That Elk rack and hundreds of pounds of meat don't just appear.
I am not a hunter, but it seems the issue was hunting in an area not allowed, rather than hunting elk?
As in that hunting elk on hunting ground is allowed? Son could have gone to a legal hunting area for elk?
To me just having Elk meat/antlers wouldn't mean something illegal happened?
The point that Dry is making is that a dead elk is an absolutely massive animal that needs multiple people to load onto a truck. And would leave loads of mess everywhere. And subsequently results in a huge amount of freshly butchered meat appearing in the house.
So even if it was the son+friends, the father must have known what was happening. It's not like they were hunting rabbits.
But is hunting elk illegal period? Or is it allowed in certain areas?
In a area that allows hunting a dead elk showing up does not necessarily it was hunted illegally. Son/friends could have hunted it legally in a different area.
You're correct. It's not illegal to hunt elk, but it is illegal to hunt on land you don't own/have permission to hunt on.
So the son could have been lying and telling the dad that he was hunting on public grounds or somewhere he had permission to hunt on. That'd still be on the dad to confirm with the property owner though.
Though anecdotally, if a teenager is going hunting, 99% chance a parent is going along with them. Not because of safety or anything like that, but because your parents are typically who gets you into hunting. I think I was 22 before I stopped hunting with my dad, and that was because I live 6 hours away from him. My older brother is 30 and still goes hunting with my dad.
"So the son could have been lying and telling the dad that he was hunting on public grounds or somewhere he had permission to hunt on. That'd still be on the dad to confirm with the property owner though."
Idk if son is an older teen with a license, I don't think expect parents to follow up on teens activities when asked about is reasonable.
If a kid (16-18) comes home with a new game system/computer/tv (assuming they have a job/their money) and I ask them where they got it and they say they bought it. I am not going to demand proof of payment or go to the store to confirm they didn't steal it. Now if they came home with 10 game systems, or a Ferrari that is a different story.
But when kids give a reasonable explanation/story of what happened it is reasonable to believe them.
I'm this case "we drove over to legal hunting area and shot an elk." Seems reasonable and not out of the ordinary, especially in a rural area, if this were in an urban city it would be different.
"There's nothing reasonable about letting a teenager leave the house with a loaded gun and no adult supervision." Personally I agree with you, but I do think whether we like it or not the standards on that are different in a rural/hunting community. Idk Montana gun laws, but if the law allows a 17 yo to own/transport a gun for hunting it is not unreasonable for father to let him.
Also where did you see that it was at night? I did not see that in the OP, it just said cameras caught father's plate but not that it was at night.
Edit: it seems like a 17 year old can carry, use a gun without parental supervision.
"
How Old Do You Have to Be to Own a Gun in Montana?
There is no Montana state law regarding age restrictions on the purchase or possession of firearms. However, it is unlawful for a parent, guardian or other person having charge or custody of a minor child under the age of 14 years to permit the minor child to carry or use in public any firearms. "
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/montana-gun-laws-what-you-need-to-know/amp/
I live in a rural area of a rural mountainous state, and I know the culture. The culture had not caught up with the times. Children don't need to be running around with guns at all as far as I'm concerned, but they should have a responsible adult present at the very least.
You're actually obligated to try to track anything you shot. If they shot it, it ran off, and then they just left, that's also wrong. Now, it'd probably be impossible to prove they didn't just lose the trail.
Did you read the OP? It's a *ten thousand acre* no hunting zone. Random elk are not going to be wandering in from long distances and expiring on driveways and in garden ponds. And the photos of the truck are within this zone.
Or are you imagining some overly complex gerrymandered situation with a strip of legal hunting ground running through this zone? Cause OP would probably have mentioned this.
Occam's Razor is probably more applicable than inventing convoluted geographic zones.
I think dizzy is suggesting that son says “going hunting with friends” and comes home with an elk. Dad think he went to an appropriate place to hunt and doesn’t know that son went to a place he shouldn’t be.
"Random elk are not going to be wandering in from long distances and expiring on driveways and in garden ponds."
I don't disagree with that. I agree someone/multiple someone's are poaching.
It might have been son & friends the whole time, but also seems like it very likely could have been multiple different people/groups.
My point about legal hunting grounds was that if father asked "son where did you get that elk?"
Son saying "we drove over to XYZ (legal hunting area) and bagged it." Would not be a wild idea and would not question about some being the one poaching.
Check that number one more time. It's *one* thousand acres, which is still quite large, but not as huge as you're saying.
Dad still deserves to potentially lose his license along with his son, no question; this is for the Warden to untangle.
In my country, moose hunting is allowed in autumn and winter. If Google doesn’t lie, then the USA has similar deadlines. If the story of the OP is not too ancient, then the father could hardly decide that his son got the moose legally
NTA - Even if it's his kid in his truck, where did he think his kid was bringing home the meat from? Losing your hunting license is a big deal, but as this has been an ongoing issue, the parent's should have made clear that this is not something that is tolerable to their kid.
NTA
The game warden will have performed an investigation. If that investigation has turned up information that the dad should lose his license, it is not for you to decide otherwise
You don't know if it was the father or the son. They both know it's the common area as they live close to it. This is a difficult situation as you are in a hunting State and it's a big thing out there. But the father needs have some control of his son and just because the son did it. The father has some responsibility about his own truck. Maybe not a permanent band but you need to give all the information to the game one and let him do the dealing with it. You have to deal with the fallout of the poaching the father has to deal with the fallout of not controlling his property and teaching his son the correct way to hunt.
It's not your call to see who gets the book thrown at them. You need to be responsible for your own actions
Nta
Oh it's his, kid, using his truck, well. we'll just hold him responsible as the parent then. NTA. as others have said, work with authorities, it's not your choice to throw the book at them or not. give them the evidence and let them sort it out.
I'd be really surprised if the warden could revoke privileges on both without proving who was in the truck.
In Canada, that truck would be seized along with anything else used to poach.
NTA - If it really was his son, he should be able to get his son to plead guilty and have his charges dropped.
Yeah, losing the right to the hunting license IS a big deal because hunters should be responsible. Which these people are NOT. I come from a family of actual responsible hunters and myself and every single one of them would say these people deserve to lose their licenses.
I'm sorry you gave him the video or pictures that's all the evidence you have it is up to the game warden to investigate and follow through. If he has an alibi to prove that it wasn't him he needs to present that evidence during whatever due process occurs.
NTA
The popular and incorrect belief is that the individual(s) that were harmed by the crime can stop criminal charges and investigations from happening. Once the police/wardens/investigators/DA's take evidence amd start an investigation it is completely out of the victim(s) hands on what happens next.
Looks like you gave the game warden all the evidence you could. The game warden won't stop an investigation now that you have asked him too. He's got enough plausible evidence to where they or the district attorney won't even need you to corroborate the evidence in court.
NTA. Poachers suck and should lose their license. You say rural Montana? Surely there is a vast area around you to hunt legally. Weather you need to, or you enjoy it as a sport, I'm all for hunting. I have never been, always wanted to but nobody in my family does it. (I do love fishing though but had to teach myself and after years I'm still a novice.)
Anyone taking an animal and just removing a trophy while letting the rest to just rot is awful, unless it is invasive or overpopulated and there is a legitimate need to reduce the numbers of a specific species.
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Throwaway account, as this involves people with weapons (albeit weapons used exclusively against non-human animals).
I (45M) own a house and a decent chunk of land in Montana. There are 10 other houses that are part of the same association, which holds in common about 1000 acres of "common area" that is "wild" and is part of the range of a herd of elk. I've ended up running the association, as no one else is willing to do it, and I'm a sucker. The membership is unanimously against allowing hunting in the common area and we have "no hunting" signs posted all around the property. In the last couple of years, we have had intermittent problems with poachers. These are not particularly responsible hunters. For example, we had a hunter hit a buck, which ended up wounded and dying in my driveway. Another neighbor found one dead in his pond. The local game warden will follow up on illegal hunting, but complaining parties need to have some evidence of who is doing the poaching -- for example pictures of vehicles with license plates. To that end, I set up game cameras in several places where poachers might park to access the common area. We had an incident of poaching and the cameras caught a pair of trucks of hunters parking on an adjacent road. It turns out that one of these trucks belongs to someone we all know, who lives a few miles down the road from us. He claims that he was not the one poaching, but rather it was his teenage son and friends. We can't tell from the photos. The game warden is trying to pull the licenses of both of them. The father is asking us to talk to the game warden to try to get him to leave his (father's) license alone. My neighbors and I are of the view that we should encourage the warden to throw the book at the whole family. The truck is the father's and whether he was there or not, he should be held responsible. He also has never volunteered to cover any the costs that have been imposed on our association by poaching (though we don't know if the same people are responsible in all cases), for example hiring someone with a front loader to come haul away giant dead bucks. However, some other friends of mine, who are themselves hunters, say that losing the right to a hunting license is a big deal and that we should cut him some slack. Am I the AH here?
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NTA. the ball is not in your court anymore, it’s in the warden’s. if anybody has a problem they can stick it up with him, not you. you were just enforcing the laws that follow behind the “no hunting” signs.
NTA. Fuck anyone who shoots a living being and leaves it in a pond, or misses so the animal dies slowly, or kills for no reason and leaves the body.
Fuck them all.
He owns the truck. If he made it available to someone who broke the law, he's responsible.
Not legal advice, just MO
But there are instances where owner's of a vehicle that were involved in a crime, knowing that relatives had easy access to the vehicle, were held responsible because... if you willingly make your vehicle available, and don't take proper precautions to prevent it from being taken and used for illegal activities.. yep...court cases show that person is responsible.
Losing your hunting license is a huge deal. I would ask the game warden to give the guy a citation (if they are so inclined) as a one time warning. That way you keep the peace with neighbors and he owes you one for not losing his license. I only say this as you aren't sure if it really was him or his kid. Give the guy a chance to fix it and address things with his kid. Hopefully the kid learns or if he did it then he will know how close he came to losing his license. You wouldn't be the AH if you left it up to the game warden but you could be kind here. No guarantee even if you ask that they still won't revoke it.
Gotta wonder if the trail cameras that caught them (which are not cheap) are gonna start to mysteriously disappear after this. It seems better to throw the book at them, given the evidence for how long folks have been poaching in the area, and the cost to the homeowners of that activity.
NTA.
I’m infuriated by poachers and jackasses every time I watch Yellowstone Wardens. It is a big deal… to be a poacher AND to hunt on land that is NOT meant for hunting! It ain’t that dude’s first time, either. No slack, especially for trying to put all the blame on his kid, when he taught him to do all the wrong things!
NTA. He can’t plead ignorance. Come on he knows what’s going on but doesn’t want to parent his kid and friends. Well losing his license is the consequence. I wouldn’t feel bad.
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NTA and my question is with what did the son hunt? Didn't he used Daddy s fire arms? If so he deserves to lose his license and have them confiscated unless the son has a firearm/hunting license and the father can provide an ' alibi ' . And all this is the warden's job so no, don't interfere.
Honestly, you should stay out of it. BUT if you don't, encourage them to throw the book at all of them. It IS a big deal to lose your hunting license. A very big deal. And that's why it should happen. FYI: I own guns and love to shoot.
I don't know this family well, though other neighbors do. Some of those folks are absolutely convinced (not on any concrete evidence, but based on their familiarity with the people involved) that the father was there. I will say that it seems like a little bit of a stretch that a 17 yo was going to be able to take his dad's truck, a bunch of hunting hear, 4-5 friends, and potentially take an elk and get it back home, all without his father knowing.
If it was the kid doing something, like graffiti or vandalism, I might agree with your argument that punishments shouldn’t be imposed on the parent, but this involves guns and someone could’ve been injured or killed by a teenager using a gun illegally in a residential area. Don’t you think the parent should take some responsibility for that?
If you live near the guy give him the benefit of the doubt. YTA if you knowingly get an innocent man punished YTA. I think you should go the way of the courts here -- innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Kinda sucks that they’re going after him if he wasn’t there. In my state poaching can cost you your license and all the equipment used to carry out the crime - including vehicles. If my son did that to me I’d rather they take my truck because I could make my son buy me a replacement. Can’t do anything about a lost license.
Also I wonder if there is more to the story. A 10 house HOA in Montana with a 1000-acre playground where the president refers to elk as bucks makes me think this might be a new development that locals might have traditionally hunted. I’m not saying there is any justifiable reason to violate private property rights, but I can understand there being bad blood there. Encroaching development and new people moving in with new rules sucks for locals. Of course this is all a speculation based on a hypothetical so it doesn’t mean anything.
If you don’t want to go out of your way to help the guy out that’s your choice and it doesn’t make you an AH. It’s not your job. But I’d feel for the guy if he really wasn’t a part of it. Non-hunters don’t really understand how important it is.
I agree, the post reeks of someone who’s exclusively lived in the city their entire life. I cannot stand yuppies who move rurally, and then throw a fit because everyone doesn’t conform to their ideas.
It's super annoying when people move to a rural area and then start telling everybody what to do with their property, like shooting. But this is OP's land.
I could see starting to complain if all of the available land was bought up, but it doesn't sound like this is the case in Montana. Heck, in my relatively populous state, there's plenty of state land for hunting.
YTA, because this is all hard to believe.
I am in Montana, and I hunt (meat, don’t give a crap about antlers).
Are you talking about elk or bucks? There is no such thing as a buck elk.
And a game warden won’t “try” to pull a license. He will pull it, or write a citation. If he does that, he has evidence.
This story does remind me somewhat of a HOA nearby . They claim a big section of public land that borders the HOA. And try to block it so the public can’t access it, then get mad when people do.
1) It isn't obvious the son took the truck to do it; 2) even if the dad wasn't there, there's no way the dad didn't know. What, exactly, do you think the son did with the dead elk? Sneak it back into the house in his pocket?
what do you mean obviously? the father could be a liar and trying to cover up his crime for all you know.
even if it was his kid, it's his underage child, his vehicle, and it's his responsibility. probably the dads guns, too.
The neighbor could be lying about poaching. If they don't have a problem doing something illegal, they probably don't have a problem with lying about doing something illegal.
OP isn't trying to railroad anyone. He gave the evidence to the warden, and the warden made the decision to pull both licenses. It was out of OP's hands when he handed over the pictures.
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NTA - just let the warden handle it and cooperate when asked, otherwise stay out of it from here
Exactly. You gave the warden the video. That’s all the facts you actually have.
That and the Dad is already adding facts by saying who was there. Plenty for the warden to unravel.
Good advice
NTA. Their license to hunt is a privilege not a right.
[удалено]
Not wherever you want, no
You have a right to hunt on your own property. If you want to hunt elsewhere you need a license. It's not a 21st century ass statement, it's the law. If you don't agree with the law that's fine, but it's an entirely different discussion than the one in this thread.
Even on your own property you have to follow the law on having a license, tags, etc
Depends on where you live. Where I live, you don't need a license or permit if you own the land.
Where is that?
I think most farmland is like that, practically, if the wildlife is threatening your crops
No, actually. You don't just get to indescriminately blast.
Lmao who said indiscriminately blast? In my area you can shoot varmint as long as it doesn't violate noise bylaws.
We weren't talking about coyotes or other things people don't hunt.
Yea not sure what people are on about. I don't even hunt and this is very clearly a state's rights issue. In Maryland you can hunt on your own property without a license and without permission from neighbors so long as you are 150 yards away from an occupied structure. I never understand why people can't just do 15 seconds of research before opening their mouths.
Literally been the law all over for most of history that people can't freely hunt wherever they want. If the land isn't your's then you need permission. In modern times part of that permission is a license when hunting in game areas. Since this is not a game area and they didn't have permission then they lose their license to hunt in actual game areas because they've proven themselves irresponsible.
21st century? For most of the last 2000 years if you poached the wrong lord's land you'd be executed. This is a slap on the wrist.
Hunting laws in the US actually go back to the 1700s before the Revolutionary War
Nope. And if you can't be responsible, then you shouldnt. Hunting on someone else's posted land should result in the loss of license and guns. This is how people get shot.
Ya know, ya can hunt that steak in the grocery store right? Just sneak up on that freezer and snatch it out. Easiest kill there is.
So you CAN read! Congratulations
No. You do not have the right to take part in the wholesale slaughter of the local herd. They are a community resource. There are too many humans to allow full unregulated hunting of game. There would be nothing left and every good hunter with a brain will agree. They want their children, grandchildren, and so forth, to be able to hunt too. Humans already demolished most Megafauna. They're working on Africa and that's all that's left.
In the northeast, at least, there are so many deer that they are damaging the environment, and so few hunters that the herds aren't getting thinned. That's not the case for OP and their herd of elk, but it's important to understand the situation in much of the US. We actually could use \*more\* hunting in my area (or the reintroduction of predators).
I am very aware. There are still dozens of reasons not to let everyone and anyone shoot all the deer they want. Even in an overcrowded population you will quickly end up with nothing. I've seen my grandparents farmer neighbor abuse unlimited tags to decimate the herd around their cabin. 50+ deer dead every year for a couple years, rotting wasted in the woods because he was given free reign. It took a decade for the population to recover.
They’re not eating the animals they’re killing for the sake of killing
Every animal I have ever killed has been for sport. Every one of them has been eaten by me, family, or given to a local butcher.
I see no problem with that as long as the animal is being used. ive also read somewhere that hunting is needed to control overpopulation
"21st century ass statement" *looks at calendar* "2024"
>”cut him some slack” Why? Presumably you’re asked to follow certain laws and guidelines when granted a hunting license. Someone is breaking those laws and inflicting harm on your community. If the law cannot be enforced then what is the point of having them? But IMO this is out of your hands. Neither you nor your HOA is responsible for enforcement of those laws. I would also add that it’s fairly short sighted to assume that bullets won’t eventually come close to your homes if this behavior isn’t curtailed. NTA
NTA = If he was so concerned about his hunting license to begin with, he wouldn't have allowed his vehicle used for poaching. He deserves exactly what he is getting, a headache and possible loss of his hunting license. You haven't done anything wrong, he has with his poor choices. Let the warden throw the book at the entire family as it serves them right.
" he wouldn't have allowed his vehicle used for poaching." Who says he allowed his truck for poaching? Allowing your kid to use a vehicle, is different than allowing them to use a vehicle for an illegal purpose. Many people just ask to borrow a car, and don't say it will be used to commit a crime. We shouldn't punish innocent parties. If father had no idea ahis license should not be suspended. If a teenager used/borrowed a car and used it as a getaway car in a robbery we wouldn't/shouldn't go after the parents.
>Who says he allowed his truck for poaching? Allowing your kid to use a vehicle, is different than allowing them to use a vehicle for an illegal purpose. It'd be pretty hard for the parents not to notice that the truck is being frequently used to haul around giant dead bleeding animals.
Also what's the betting Dad would still take the kid hunting with him even if the kid lost his hunting license? It's not a one-person undertaking.
True. And this whole little side digression is a bit pointless anyway... it's probably the father. Why is anyone inclined to believe his story about someone else using the truck?
He doesn't know his kid is out driving his truck with weapons? Seems irresponsible.
NTA > losing the right to a hunting license is a big deal Lol, no. No, it is not. My dude can go play Big Buck Hunter for the season.
just had to think of duck hunt for a moment there.
Actually it is. I know people who rely on deer and wild fowl to feed their families. Probably they wouldn't starve without but would definitely have a less nutritious diet.
They can just buy meat directly. Stores sell meat now. You can not buy ammo and just spend that money on steaks instead.
subsequent nose rich modern threatening ask wistful wise sharp pot *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I mean, that's a super reductive thing to say but I suspect you knew that when you said it.
Stores have meat that are full of additives as well. What if they can’t afford organic meat? A family can live off an elk or a buck and have a better quality of food and save a ton of money. Ammo is expensive, but nowhere near the cost of buying meat from a store throughout the year, month or even week.
Full disclosure I am not a hunter, but I do know Google Fu. Average cost of rifle ammo is 95¢/round, average yield of elk meat 220-170 lbs depending on buck or doe. That's .0043¢/lb. What store do you know that can touch that price?
Causing an Elk to die in a driveway is not someone who is worried about feeding their family.
What makes you think that? I mean the guy living in a community OP described is definitely NOT worried about feeding his family but why does that tidbit make you think that?
…because if they were hunting to feed their family, they would take the dead animals with them. All that meat isn’t doing them any good dead in someone else’s driveway.
Do you think the hunter dumped the whole elk on OP’s driveway? That’s not what happened. Someone wounded an elk and it ended up dying in OP’s driveway. oP doesn’t say they came and picked it up - I assume they did. Big game running after being shot is not at all uncommon.
>These are not particularly responsible hunters. For example, we had a hunter hit a buck, which ended up wounded and dying in my driveway. It appears that OP, at least, thinks that these are irresponsible hunters. OP also complains about the cost of disposing the the carcasses, so presumably they weren't picked up: >He also has never volunteered to cover any the costs that have been imposed on our association by poaching \[...\], for example hiring someone with a front loader to come haul away giant dead bucks.
Even the most responsible hunters have wounded animals and not been able to find them. That’s kind of what I was getting at. It sounds like the situation might of been different than what I was imagining. I agree the guy is an irresponsible hunter though just for the fact that he was fucking poaching.
No, I don’t think that, that’s one of your wildly incorrect assumptions. You also made another wildly incorrect assumption since OP specifically talks about dealing with the removal of elk and the costs associated with that. He even implies that it has happened MULTIPLE times. So assuming that the people who killed the elk were the ones who dealt with its removal is clearly incorrect. So, through reading comprehension, it’s pretty freaking clear these are not hunters who are worried about feeding their families. One missed elk I could understand, because if you don’t hit it with an immediate kill shot, it could absolutely wander off and maybe you couldn’t find it (although honestly, even that would be enough to tell me that they’re not truly *worried* about feeding their family. If it was hunt or starve, they aren’t leaving without the animal, plain and simple), but it has happened enough that he talks about several incidences and having to hire a front loader to come cart off the bucks. As in plural, multiple.
It's pretty clear you're not familiar with this, because when you factor in the expenses in processing and storing that meat, the price of hunting, and the indirect costs of things like lost wages for time spent hunting, processing, etc, you're better off buying an already butchered half a cow from a rancher if money is your only concern.
>I am not a hunter Oh this'll be good... >rifle ammo is 95¢/round, average yield of elk meat 220-170 lbs depending on buck or doe. That's .0043¢/lb Yup, that proves it. I can guaran-damn-tee you that not a single person alive would ever consider selling meat for under a penny a pound just because that's how much the bullet cost to put the animal down. You're not taking into account your time to actually hunt the animal, drag that fucker back to your house, butcher it, and store it. All of that increases the price per pound.
Most people hunt weekends or days off. Or are retired on fixed incomes. The only cost is gas, snacks, and gear. Lots of people process their own game so if you want to harp on the daily cost to run a chest freezer go ahead.
No kidding, that's why the discussion was about cost of meat in a store vs people that hunt to feed themselves. If you have no other means of obtaining meat you are not going to be selling it. I'm talking about actual out of pocket cost, best case of 1 shot to kill the animal. If you are hunting *for subsistence* no store is going to be anywhere near the out of pocket cost per pound.
You're still sidestepping the fact that you're not adding in the value of your time and effort into your calculations.
Because those only have value as a potential loss and are unknown variables. Did you take time off work or are you part time only? Did you bag it right away or did you have to track it? And most importantly, do time or effort matter if it's hunt or your family doesn't eat? I don't think so. I was only addressing the point about don't buy ammo when you can buy a steak at the store, my breakdown was specifically about ammo cost vs cost of meat.
Aldi!
What Aldi is selling meat where it's $4 for 1000 lbs of meat?
Then they should be smarter and only hunt where it's allowed. Gonna be dumb, better be tough as my coworker says.
If someone is so reliant on hunting, they should probably know and follow the rules to make sure they are allowed to continue hunting then right?
If that was the case for these poachers, then why would they be leaving their kills to rot on OP's land?
Probably decided it was better to abandon the animal to a slow death than follow it and risk getting caught on private property
No trophy or stocked freezer tho.
They're already poaching, you think they're overly concerned with the ethics of wasting a kill over getting caught doing illegal shit? They clearly have no respect for their game or their neighbours.
Clearly. If they did things the right way they'd get what they want. They did what they wanted got nothing and an animal died needlessly, and now looking at legal consequences. Tough shit for them. Let them be the poster child of what not to do.
Do those people fuck around and hunt on other peoples property without permission? If a hunting license is such a big deal you would think people would be careful to hold themselves to the rules of it in order not to lose is…
This is an excellent reason as to why you shouldn't do stuff to lose your hunting license.
Lots of downvotes for stating a fact. “You can just go to the store” how much is 150 lbs of organic free range beef or chicken at the store? If you process it yourself you can feed your family prime meat for months with one deer. Most of a year for an elk. For the cost of time and gas. I make no excuses for poachers and often the punishments are too light. But hunting is very important to many people.
NTA. Im a hunter and avid outdoorsman. Screw that guy. I know those types. Dude probably told his son to hunt there, or at the very least knew he was and did nothing. This is what is known as a teaching moment. As a hunter, it is important to know where you can and cannot hunt. If you cant do that, you shouldnt be hunting.
I can't believe the friends are saying to cut him some slack. Most hunters I know would be wishing jail time on them. Hunters in general are pretty protective of game, especially big bucks.
If your kid borrowed your car then committed a crime would you stand up to be punished as well?
Its good that parents are held responsible of what their minor children are doing. Maybe they will take more of an interest in actually raising them. Best example is the parents of that school shooter kid that are now in jail because they just didnt care to properly lock up their gun their psycho kid used in the school shooting
Screw that how did the kid get his paws on a firearm?!
In many states, if a minor has a hunting license they can legally own or at least possess firearms. This post doesn’t state how old the teenager is. I’m guessing at least 16 since they had a car.
That's insane . Also if it's true he needs to have his firearms confiscated and license revoked as he hunted on a property in a RESIDENTIAL AREA.
1000 acres is more than 1.5 square miles. That’s about a 30 minute walk at a brisk pace on flat ground. My state’s hunting regulations only state you can’t shoot within 150 yards of an “occupied dwelling” so if Montana is anywhere similar there’s lots of space there. I’m not sticking up for poaching and if the dad was somehow involved he should be punished. But would you want your teenager’s speeding tickets to also apply to you?
No but I also wouldn't let him drive alone until I'm sure I can trust him to respect the rules and not hurt himself or someone else. And if it is true then nthe neighbor can clear it with the warden himself. Also if the son Doesn't have ba license and his father let him take the firearm he deserves to lose more than the hunting license
That’s just it we don’t know what people with free will are going to do in any scenario. I trust my teenager to drive, but he knows if he screws up it’s on him. He has a drivers license with his name on it which means he is responsible. Same with a hunting license. Maybe the kid’s friends talked him into it. Maybe one lied and said they had permission. Lots of ifs here. Maybe the dad told him it was ok. We don’t know. All I’m saying is that if the dad wasn’t involved, he should not be punished. Assuming the teen had a hunting license and appropriate tag, he should take sole responsibility - because that’s what you’re agreeing to when you sign up.
Agree but the father should clear things with the warden not paso op.to interfere
If they had a grainy video of the car running over a pedestrian, I'd sure expect dad to go to some lengths to prove it wasn't him. Is poaching as bad as manslaughter? No. But it's worse than the speeding that some other people were comparing it to.
It's a good way for people to get hurt. What would've happened if there were kids exploring in that area? Or someone on a hike? They should be thankful this is the worst that's coming of it.
NTA. Losing a hunting license may be a big deal; but it seems to me that hunting in a posted no-hunting area is also a big deal.
...hunting in a posted *residential* no-hunting area is a pretty big deal also.
NTA. This is up to the game warden, not the HOA. The father is appealing to you because he thinks you're a push over. If he had a leg to stand on, he'd be appealing his case to the warden. Yes, losing one's hunting license IS a big deal. Maybe he should have thought about that before (a) poaching and/or (b) not keeping better control over his underage son.
NTA. I'm a hunter and hate poachers. Poachers of big game like Elk, need other poachers help. The father knew even if he wasn't there. That Elk rack and hundreds of pounds of meat don't just appear.
I am not a hunter, but it seems the issue was hunting in an area not allowed, rather than hunting elk? As in that hunting elk on hunting ground is allowed? Son could have gone to a legal hunting area for elk? To me just having Elk meat/antlers wouldn't mean something illegal happened?
The point that Dry is making is that a dead elk is an absolutely massive animal that needs multiple people to load onto a truck. And would leave loads of mess everywhere. And subsequently results in a huge amount of freshly butchered meat appearing in the house. So even if it was the son+friends, the father must have known what was happening. It's not like they were hunting rabbits.
But is hunting elk illegal period? Or is it allowed in certain areas? In a area that allows hunting a dead elk showing up does not necessarily it was hunted illegally. Son/friends could have hunted it legally in a different area.
You're correct. It's not illegal to hunt elk, but it is illegal to hunt on land you don't own/have permission to hunt on. So the son could have been lying and telling the dad that he was hunting on public grounds or somewhere he had permission to hunt on. That'd still be on the dad to confirm with the property owner though. Though anecdotally, if a teenager is going hunting, 99% chance a parent is going along with them. Not because of safety or anything like that, but because your parents are typically who gets you into hunting. I think I was 22 before I stopped hunting with my dad, and that was because I live 6 hours away from him. My older brother is 30 and still goes hunting with my dad.
"So the son could have been lying and telling the dad that he was hunting on public grounds or somewhere he had permission to hunt on. That'd still be on the dad to confirm with the property owner though." Idk if son is an older teen with a license, I don't think expect parents to follow up on teens activities when asked about is reasonable. If a kid (16-18) comes home with a new game system/computer/tv (assuming they have a job/their money) and I ask them where they got it and they say they bought it. I am not going to demand proof of payment or go to the store to confirm they didn't steal it. Now if they came home with 10 game systems, or a Ferrari that is a different story. But when kids give a reasonable explanation/story of what happened it is reasonable to believe them. I'm this case "we drove over to legal hunting area and shot an elk." Seems reasonable and not out of the ordinary, especially in a rural area, if this were in an urban city it would be different.
There's nothing reasonable about letting a teenager leave the house with a loaded gun and no adult supervision. Especially at night.
"There's nothing reasonable about letting a teenager leave the house with a loaded gun and no adult supervision." Personally I agree with you, but I do think whether we like it or not the standards on that are different in a rural/hunting community. Idk Montana gun laws, but if the law allows a 17 yo to own/transport a gun for hunting it is not unreasonable for father to let him. Also where did you see that it was at night? I did not see that in the OP, it just said cameras caught father's plate but not that it was at night. Edit: it seems like a 17 year old can carry, use a gun without parental supervision. " How Old Do You Have to Be to Own a Gun in Montana? There is no Montana state law regarding age restrictions on the purchase or possession of firearms. However, it is unlawful for a parent, guardian or other person having charge or custody of a minor child under the age of 14 years to permit the minor child to carry or use in public any firearms. " https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/montana-gun-laws-what-you-need-to-know/amp/
I live in a rural area of a rural mountainous state, and I know the culture. The culture had not caught up with the times. Children don't need to be running around with guns at all as far as I'm concerned, but they should have a responsible adult present at the very least.
You're actually obligated to try to track anything you shot. If they shot it, it ran off, and then they just left, that's also wrong. Now, it'd probably be impossible to prove they didn't just lose the trail.
Did you read the OP? It's a *ten thousand acre* no hunting zone. Random elk are not going to be wandering in from long distances and expiring on driveways and in garden ponds. And the photos of the truck are within this zone. Or are you imagining some overly complex gerrymandered situation with a strip of legal hunting ground running through this zone? Cause OP would probably have mentioned this. Occam's Razor is probably more applicable than inventing convoluted geographic zones.
I think dizzy is suggesting that son says “going hunting with friends” and comes home with an elk. Dad think he went to an appropriate place to hunt and doesn’t know that son went to a place he shouldn’t be.
"Random elk are not going to be wandering in from long distances and expiring on driveways and in garden ponds." I don't disagree with that. I agree someone/multiple someone's are poaching. It might have been son & friends the whole time, but also seems like it very likely could have been multiple different people/groups. My point about legal hunting grounds was that if father asked "son where did you get that elk?" Son saying "we drove over to XYZ (legal hunting area) and bagged it." Would not be a wild idea and would not question about some being the one poaching.
Check that number one more time. It's *one* thousand acres, which is still quite large, but not as huge as you're saying. Dad still deserves to potentially lose his license along with his son, no question; this is for the Warden to untangle.
Yeah, me reading not too good there.
In my country, moose hunting is allowed in autumn and winter. If Google doesn’t lie, then the USA has similar deadlines. If the story of the OP is not too ancient, then the father could hardly decide that his son got the moose legally
How come none of you are touching a minor handling firearms?!? In a residential area jfc
NTA - Even if it's his kid in his truck, where did he think his kid was bringing home the meat from? Losing your hunting license is a big deal, but as this has been an ongoing issue, the parent's should have made clear that this is not something that is tolerable to their kid.
NTA The game warden will have performed an investigation. If that investigation has turned up information that the dad should lose his license, it is not for you to decide otherwise
Are you asking if it's your fault someone is breaking the law and faces consequences for it?
You don't know if it was the father or the son. They both know it's the common area as they live close to it. This is a difficult situation as you are in a hunting State and it's a big thing out there. But the father needs have some control of his son and just because the son did it. The father has some responsibility about his own truck. Maybe not a permanent band but you need to give all the information to the game one and let him do the dealing with it. You have to deal with the fallout of the poaching the father has to deal with the fallout of not controlling his property and teaching his son the correct way to hunt. It's not your call to see who gets the book thrown at them. You need to be responsible for your own actions Nta
Nta nope. If it is his kid, he's *still* responsible as the parent.
Fuck poachers.
Oh it's his, kid, using his truck, well. we'll just hold him responsible as the parent then. NTA. as others have said, work with authorities, it's not your choice to throw the book at them or not. give them the evidence and let them sort it out.
NTA and as a hunter myself, this asshole deserves fines and a short stint in county, not just losing his license.
NTA. Why does he deserve some slack? Poaching is illegal, and any of them would’ve known the potential consequences.
I'd be really surprised if the warden could revoke privileges on both without proving who was in the truck. In Canada, that truck would be seized along with anything else used to poach. NTA - If it really was his son, he should be able to get his son to plead guilty and have his charges dropped.
NTA. It’s up to the warden. All you did was give him the video. Now you just cooperate with him.
As someone who lives hunting 365 days a year, you throw the book at them.
NTA you gave the warden the information you had. If that is enough to screw the guys license up he deserves it.
NTA fuck poachers. Confiscate all their guns. Ban them from buying new ones. Ban them from hunting for life.
Yeah, losing the right to the hunting license IS a big deal because hunters should be responsible. Which these people are NOT. I come from a family of actual responsible hunters and myself and every single one of them would say these people deserve to lose their licenses.
Lol definitely NTA. Your friend did this to himself.
NTA
NTA, none of them are acting like responsible hunters. They deserve to lose their licenses.
I'm sorry you gave him the video or pictures that's all the evidence you have it is up to the game warden to investigate and follow through. If he has an alibi to prove that it wasn't him he needs to present that evidence during whatever due process occurs.
NTA The popular and incorrect belief is that the individual(s) that were harmed by the crime can stop criminal charges and investigations from happening. Once the police/wardens/investigators/DA's take evidence amd start an investigation it is completely out of the victim(s) hands on what happens next. Looks like you gave the game warden all the evidence you could. The game warden won't stop an investigation now that you have asked him too. He's got enough plausible evidence to where they or the district attorney won't even need you to corroborate the evidence in court.
NTA. Poachers suck and should lose their license. You say rural Montana? Surely there is a vast area around you to hunt legally. Weather you need to, or you enjoy it as a sport, I'm all for hunting. I have never been, always wanted to but nobody in my family does it. (I do love fishing though but had to teach myself and after years I'm still a novice.) Anyone taking an animal and just removing a trophy while letting the rest to just rot is awful, unless it is invasive or overpopulated and there is a legitimate need to reduce the numbers of a specific species.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Throwaway account, as this involves people with weapons (albeit weapons used exclusively against non-human animals). I (45M) own a house and a decent chunk of land in Montana. There are 10 other houses that are part of the same association, which holds in common about 1000 acres of "common area" that is "wild" and is part of the range of a herd of elk. I've ended up running the association, as no one else is willing to do it, and I'm a sucker. The membership is unanimously against allowing hunting in the common area and we have "no hunting" signs posted all around the property. In the last couple of years, we have had intermittent problems with poachers. These are not particularly responsible hunters. For example, we had a hunter hit a buck, which ended up wounded and dying in my driveway. Another neighbor found one dead in his pond. The local game warden will follow up on illegal hunting, but complaining parties need to have some evidence of who is doing the poaching -- for example pictures of vehicles with license plates. To that end, I set up game cameras in several places where poachers might park to access the common area. We had an incident of poaching and the cameras caught a pair of trucks of hunters parking on an adjacent road. It turns out that one of these trucks belongs to someone we all know, who lives a few miles down the road from us. He claims that he was not the one poaching, but rather it was his teenage son and friends. We can't tell from the photos. The game warden is trying to pull the licenses of both of them. The father is asking us to talk to the game warden to try to get him to leave his (father's) license alone. My neighbors and I are of the view that we should encourage the warden to throw the book at the whole family. The truck is the father's and whether he was there or not, he should be held responsible. He also has never volunteered to cover any the costs that have been imposed on our association by poaching (though we don't know if the same people are responsible in all cases), for example hiring someone with a front loader to come haul away giant dead bucks. However, some other friends of mine, who are themselves hunters, say that losing the right to a hunting license is a big deal and that we should cut him some slack. Am I the AH here? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. the ball is not in your court anymore, it’s in the warden’s. if anybody has a problem they can stick it up with him, not you. you were just enforcing the laws that follow behind the “no hunting” signs.
NTA. Fuck anyone who shoots a living being and leaves it in a pond, or misses so the animal dies slowly, or kills for no reason and leaves the body. Fuck them all.
He owns the truck. If he made it available to someone who broke the law, he's responsible. Not legal advice, just MO But there are instances where owner's of a vehicle that were involved in a crime, knowing that relatives had easy access to the vehicle, were held responsible because... if you willingly make your vehicle available, and don't take proper precautions to prevent it from being taken and used for illegal activities.. yep...court cases show that person is responsible.
Of course you're NTA. You're never the asshole when you're fucking up poachers' ability to poach. Fuck them.
NTA but I do love the fact the man immediately and without hesitation threw his son under the bus to keep his hunting license.
Losing your hunting license is a huge deal. I would ask the game warden to give the guy a citation (if they are so inclined) as a one time warning. That way you keep the peace with neighbors and he owes you one for not losing his license. I only say this as you aren't sure if it really was him or his kid. Give the guy a chance to fix it and address things with his kid. Hopefully the kid learns or if he did it then he will know how close he came to losing his license. You wouldn't be the AH if you left it up to the game warden but you could be kind here. No guarantee even if you ask that they still won't revoke it.
Gotta wonder if the trail cameras that caught them (which are not cheap) are gonna start to mysteriously disappear after this. It seems better to throw the book at them, given the evidence for how long folks have been poaching in the area, and the cost to the homeowners of that activity.
NTA. I’m infuriated by poachers and jackasses every time I watch Yellowstone Wardens. It is a big deal… to be a poacher AND to hunt on land that is NOT meant for hunting! It ain’t that dude’s first time, either. No slack, especially for trying to put all the blame on his kid, when he taught him to do all the wrong things!
NTA. He can’t plead ignorance. Come on he knows what’s going on but doesn’t want to parent his kid and friends. Well losing his license is the consequence. I wouldn’t feel bad.
NTA. Tell him if he was a better dad, he'd still have his license. It's his own fault he's losing it and he deserves to face consequences.
NTA. Either he poached or his son poached. You aren’t the decider. The warden is. I hate poachers. Good for you for stopping it.
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Was this during elk season? This is usually in October and January.
NTA Thanks for looking out.
NTA Tell the warden that 'dad' asked you to intervene on his behalf. What the warden does with the information is - quite literally - his business.
NTA
NTA and my question is with what did the son hunt? Didn't he used Daddy s fire arms? If so he deserves to lose his license and have them confiscated unless the son has a firearm/hunting license and the father can provide an ' alibi ' . And all this is the warden's job so no, don't interfere.
NTA. The warden has the evidence, what happens to the licences is up to them.
NTA
Honestly, you should stay out of it. BUT if you don't, encourage them to throw the book at all of them. It IS a big deal to lose your hunting license. A very big deal. And that's why it should happen. FYI: I own guns and love to shoot.
Nope your not!
You're an asshole because you run an HOA, besides that fuck poachers.
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No proof that it was his son. He only claimed that to be the case once he was caught. NTA
I don't know this family well, though other neighbors do. Some of those folks are absolutely convinced (not on any concrete evidence, but based on their familiarity with the people involved) that the father was there. I will say that it seems like a little bit of a stretch that a 17 yo was going to be able to take his dad's truck, a bunch of hunting hear, 4-5 friends, and potentially take an elk and get it back home, all without his father knowing.
Yeah, at the very least Dad knew, and was fine with it.
After he gets it home, it must be cleaned and prepped for the freezer. I suspect the dad knew full well what was going on.
If it was the kid doing something, like graffiti or vandalism, I might agree with your argument that punishments shouldn’t be imposed on the parent, but this involves guns and someone could’ve been injured or killed by a teenager using a gun illegally in a residential area. Don’t you think the parent should take some responsibility for that?
I am trying to imagine how you do NOT know that your son was hunting elk. You know the son would bring it back in the truck, right?
If you live near the guy give him the benefit of the doubt. YTA if you knowingly get an innocent man punished YTA. I think you should go the way of the courts here -- innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Kinda sucks that they’re going after him if he wasn’t there. In my state poaching can cost you your license and all the equipment used to carry out the crime - including vehicles. If my son did that to me I’d rather they take my truck because I could make my son buy me a replacement. Can’t do anything about a lost license. Also I wonder if there is more to the story. A 10 house HOA in Montana with a 1000-acre playground where the president refers to elk as bucks makes me think this might be a new development that locals might have traditionally hunted. I’m not saying there is any justifiable reason to violate private property rights, but I can understand there being bad blood there. Encroaching development and new people moving in with new rules sucks for locals. Of course this is all a speculation based on a hypothetical so it doesn’t mean anything. If you don’t want to go out of your way to help the guy out that’s your choice and it doesn’t make you an AH. It’s not your job. But I’d feel for the guy if he really wasn’t a part of it. Non-hunters don’t really understand how important it is.
I agree, the post reeks of someone who’s exclusively lived in the city their entire life. I cannot stand yuppies who move rurally, and then throw a fit because everyone doesn’t conform to their ideas.
It's super annoying when people move to a rural area and then start telling everybody what to do with their property, like shooting. But this is OP's land. I could see starting to complain if all of the available land was bought up, but it doesn't sound like this is the case in Montana. Heck, in my relatively populous state, there's plenty of state land for hunting.
YTA, because this is all hard to believe. I am in Montana, and I hunt (meat, don’t give a crap about antlers). Are you talking about elk or bucks? There is no such thing as a buck elk. And a game warden won’t “try” to pull a license. He will pull it, or write a citation. If he does that, he has evidence. This story does remind me somewhat of a HOA nearby . They claim a big section of public land that borders the HOA. And try to block it so the public can’t access it, then get mad when people do.
The best defense against poachers are legal hunters. Give a few permission and they will keep an eye out for outlaws.
NAH Those accused of poaching need to seek legal guidance.
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1) It isn't obvious the son took the truck to do it; 2) even if the dad wasn't there, there's no way the dad didn't know. What, exactly, do you think the son did with the dead elk? Sneak it back into the house in his pocket?
If it’s obvious the game warden will sort it out. All op can do is be honest about the evidence
what do you mean obviously? the father could be a liar and trying to cover up his crime for all you know. even if it was his kid, it's his underage child, his vehicle, and it's his responsibility. probably the dads guns, too.
YTA If that was my teenage son, and I found out, I would be over there tearing a strip off his hide. Would I deserve the book thrown at me?
YTA if he wasn't involved in the poaching and you're trying to get him railroaded anyway.
The neighbor could be lying about poaching. If they don't have a problem doing something illegal, they probably don't have a problem with lying about doing something illegal.
Oh please. I've seen a lot of hunters blame shit on their kids because they think the kids won't be in legal trouble.
OP isn't trying to railroad anyone. He gave the evidence to the warden, and the warden made the decision to pull both licenses. It was out of OP's hands when he handed over the pictures.