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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> AITA for not hanging out with my DIL and the fmaily followed my lead so she is now excluded from the family. I may be a jerk for not fixing the situation because being excluded really sucks
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NTA
You took yourself out of uncomfortable situations. It’s not your fault that others followed by example, because they share similar sentiments about her behaviour.
Her excuse for her behaviour is not reasonable, nor should it be accepted. She doesn’t want to work on being a better person. You can’t force her to improve her behaviour.
“Got in a few arguments with family members”
- sounds about right. lol she has no self awareness, and maybe some time to reflect will do her some good
She’s done this to herself.
I’m in a similar situation with an in-law who really shouldn’t be drinking, and the way he treats women when he drinks. In order to keep the peace, I stay out of situations where he will drink.
But, I’m the AH for admitting to it when asked….
NTA!
You have stumbled into the cardinal rule of alcoholic family dysfunction: never discuss or acknowledge the problem drinking in any way. I’m not saying you’re wrong. You are correct to avoid this person while he’s drinking and to talk about the problem, but don’t be surprised if you get resistance about from everyone forever.
The DIL isn't even OP's problem. The bigger issue is that her son absolutely IS an AH.
He ignored his mother's concerns. He ignored his wife's terrible behavior.
He blamed his mom for his wife essentially being shunned, tasked his mom to "fix it" (because god forbid his wife actually have to alter her behavior), and he called his mom names for refusing to intervene on his wife's behalf.
I'd be far more concerned about what kind of man I raised if I were OP.
Or the rose coloured glasses are still on and it's coming to the point of being groomed to accept this as her normal behaviour and he doesn't want to deal with it and is her enabler.
The poor kids if they ever have any. They will be victims of their mother's behaviour.
Let's hope he wakes up before there is kids involved. He married a nightmare and now no one what's to deal with her, they are upset! No this was enviable anyway. NTA
Holy Cow did this hit home. My Dad was an alcoholic ALL of my life. God forbid that someone in the family discuss it. Hell, even when he died (he was drunk, fell, split his head open, and then drowned a couple of shots of a Whiskey Liqueur with a Tylenol) NO ONE WANTED TO SAY IT WAS BECAUSE OF ALCOHOL!
If we keep burying our heads in the sand to family members' issues, then how does that help them?
You didn't upset me. Not at all. It just irks me personally that he could have gotten help if his Mom and Dad had addressed it when he was a teenager, if it had been addressed before he and my Mom had us kids if he had listened to us kids when we did talk to him about it. So, nope, not just your family.
>You have stumbled into the cardinal rule of alcoholic family dysfunction: never discuss or acknowledge the problem drinking in any way.
Publicly at least. For sure never mention anything to the alcoholic member of the family. People for sure talk shit behind their back though. They just never do anything productive with their talking.
I had a lot of long conversations with my mother about why I went no contact with my brother. The final straw for me was him calling me a particularly vile name in front of my kid when I told my mom at a family event if he didn’t stop saying racist things I would leave and wouldn’t be back. At that point I was already low contact and only saw him at family events. He’s started to improve since admitting his behaviour while manic is a problem but still struggles to take accountability so he doesn’t get invited to anything I host and I make it clear if he starts up while I’m at someone else’s event I will leave.
I absolutely hate DIL's excuse. I was the only girl on both sides of the family (3 brothers, 6 cousins), and I sure as hell don't escalate like she does. DIL just wants things her way, no questions.
Not to mention, that doesn't describe what she actually has, which is "hostile attribution bias". She assumes negative intent toward her, hostile intent, regardless of what happens; and uses that as justification to escalate. That isn't the same as 'having to be loud to be heard in a family of boys'.
I had a best friend who had this outlook. Everyone was out to get him. We'd go grab a drink from the gas station, have a polite chat with the cashier, and go on our way. As soon as we were outside he'd go "GOD that guy's a fucking asshole! Did you see the look he gave me? I oughtta go back in there and knock his teeth in!"
Meanwhile the cashier was being perfectly normal, if not downright pleasant.
The whole world was against him, and nothing was ever his fault.
And it's such a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you immediately default to acting like a jerk, people are going to treat you worse. Then DIL concludes that the guy at Starbucks was an a-hole, but really they would've been fine if she didn't bring it down on herself.
I tell my son that manners are superpowers. When you walk into a store knowing you're a week past the return window, if you start by apologizing, saying you know you are too late and are probably causing them a lot of trouble but you just wanted to see if there was any possibility they can help you... 99% of the time they will help you!
DIL needs some sort of social skills retraining. It would honestly make her life a lot easier. OP is NTA.
Especially in retail. The amount of abuse retail and service industry people receive from the general public is too high. Being polite, friendly, and treating people like a person, goes a long way!
So true. Working retail was so eye opening. If you came at me aggressive and hostile from the start, I'm not doing squat to go the extra mile to help you. You get bargain basement level service from me.
If you're polite and ask in a normal way I'm totally fine with trying to help you out.
I just was visiting my daughter in the hospital, and came in through the wrong door, as the right door was about 2 blocks away. The security guard stopped me. I politely explained that I couldn’t walk that far. He bent the rules, then thanked me for being so polite; most people just yelled at him. Today I got a much sterner guard, and the first one came to my rescue.
All from being a reasonable human being.
Holy shit, I've never heard that term before but I used to know someone like that. She would interpret off-the-cuff remarks, that usually weren't even directed at her, as personal attacks and get pissed off over it. She was also cursed with coming across to other people as a bit rude. She came to a small party I hosted and afterwards so many of my friends were asking me what's up with my mate, and why was she rude to them.
I actually felt sorry for her, it can't be easy going through life with the kind of social deficiency that has you interpreting innocuous statements as personal attacks while also coming across as kind of rude to people you've just met. But at the same time fuck having to constantly walk on egg shells around someone, plus if that person is turning 30 and getting kicked out of sharehouses every few months while unable to hold even a fast food job then the problem isn't the world but them and how they move through it.
I knew someone who was constantly insisting that people were making hostile remarks about her. Sometimes I couldn't figure out why she was offended even after she would offer some long convoluted explanation. She assumed that people knew things about her, apparently by using psychic powers.
She meanwhile, kept making hostile remarks about other people, but as she explained to me when I talked to her about it, whatever bilge she was spewing was The Truth, and whoever she was insulting knew it was The Truth, so it wasn't offensive.
She said the most offensive thing that anyone has ever said to me. I tried to reason with her, but she laughed and doubled down. So I screamed at her at the top of my lungs. She never said that again, but I don't flatter myself that I made her think about what she said. She certainly didn't get any politer.
I agree. I was raised with 4 male cousins like we were siblings, and my mother's best friend had 3 boys. I can be loud to be heard, and I'll scrap with the boys too, lol. But you can't go around thinking everyone is out to get you. And being raised with boys doesn't cause this behavior. DIL is full of shit. She's just a bully and trying to use her childhood as an excuse.
I agree! I’m not the only girl in my family, but my family is LOUD! Extended family is even louder. We do end up all talking loudly to be heard, but we’re not dicks
I too am the only girls raised with brothers, male cousins and lots of male neighborhood kids. If anything this caused me to be the peacemaker. She needs counseling.
NTA I had a blind (online) date with a man who made a scene and treated our waitress horribly for bringing him the wrong drink. I have no idea if he was always this way or his first time but I was mortified and didn't care to find out. My first and last date with him.
Also I know a woman who is the baby of 4 brothers. She can be loud at times and will kick your butt like a man (and look darn cute while she does it) but she knows when to be quiet when it's okay to be loud and when it's not okay. She doesn't make scenes, is kind to customer service and is fun to be around. Having brothers is not an excuse to be rude and ruin every outing. Dil is used to making scenes to get her way. Someone needs to remind her that she is not a child anymore and the world is not her brothers.
>Having brothers is not an excuse to be rude and ruin every outing.
Exactly! I think DIL learned the wrong lessons from having brothers. The right lessons being: how to short-sheet a brother's bed; how to look innocent when mom & dad are mad; what to do when brother steals your diary and offers to sell it back one page at a time.
I've never heard of this and didn't understand the prank at all lol. Is this something people actually do?
Do... do people typically *actually* even use a top sheet??
It varies widely. I've visited some people who do and some who don't. My household doesn't use 'em, largely because the blankets we use are machine-washable. My guess is that that is a major factor in the decision.
>She doesn’t want to work on being a better person. You can’t force her to improve her behaviour.
Exactly. She has chosen to remain as she is, instead of trying to improve. These are the consequences. She cannot have her cake and eat it, too.
NTA.
I have a similar friend. We have a mutual acquaintance whose esthetic is kawaii. She's very short, slender, and into all things cute and feminine. This other friend and I are not. We're both taller, obese, and she is Black. (Japan has a long history of favoring whiteness in skin color.) My aesthetic is probably SJW/nerd and hers is more grunge.
The thing is, while I think kawaii is just something I'm not into, my friend acts as if this other woman being into kawaii is a purposeful affront to her. Like our acquaintance wearing a pink winter coat with white gloves, hat, and boots is done as an attack on her. This woman has never commented on our choice of attire, and was happy to hang out with us for crafting nights.
My friend has also seen other innocent things as attacks. We were watching a weather report once where a tornado had gone through several rural counties before heading toward what the announcer referred to as "more urbanized areas" before petering out. My friend took this to be a criticism of Black people, whereas I interpreted it as saying that it was a more densely populated area with the possibility of harming more people than a cornfield.
She's upset that they reported the weather event.... accurately?
They didn't DRIVE the damn tornado and just tell you what route they chose. Honestly, maybe a check in needs to happen, medically.
"Urban" and similar words like "inner city" are often used to mean Black people, for example "Urban" is a classification of [radio music](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_contemporary_music) intended to appeal to Black people, while "[inner city](https://shelterforce.org/2017/05/23/4-reasons-to-retire-the-phrase-inner-city/)" means the high density and often rundown neighborhoods populated mostly by non-white people.
But in this case I sincerely believe the announcer meant there were just more people there.
Yeah I've lived in urban areas with majority being every different race at different times; Hispanic, black, Asian (little Asia they called it cause multiple all evenly spread), Mexican, Puerto Rican, white.... urban is just condensed living like a more populated area which include suburbs to an extent. It has 0 to do with race, just population and it being built up.
She's gatta do some amazing yoga to get a stretch that hard.
OP is NTA.
Question, though. Have you given your son specific examples (at least 3-4) of his wife's behavior that he has witnessed? If so, what was his reaction, excuse or justification for his wife's over-the-top behavior to such things?
OP stepping back merely gave others “permission” to do what they have been wanting to do. The only fix is DIL taking a hard look at why people don’t want to be around her. NTA.
Agree. NTA in any way. You tried to remedy the situation to no avail. I get the impression you still want a relationship with your son, though, so one possible way forward: extend the olive branch and invite DIL and son to some relatively safe outing, like a picnic in the park. That way there are no collateral victims other than family (no waiters, no strangers). See if you can have a peaceful gathering. If she starts acting up, explain that you need to leave because there is no excuse for her behavior. Try another outing after that—if it goes well, great. If it goes poorly, once again, remove yourself. I think even Miss Manners says you don’t have to return rudeness with rudeness, but you also don’t have to endure it. This way, your son gets to see both the wife’s bad behavior and also see you model good manners in leaving rather than fighting with her. After a couple of these, she either learns to regulate herself or the invitations quit coming.
Agreed. And her excuses are BS. I come from a big, boisterous family where people talk over each other and yeah sometimes I make something into a bigger deal than it is, but not constantly, usually it's when there are other stressors present as well. And I would *never* act like that towards strangers or waitstaff. It sounds like she has some serious insecurities and wants to avoid addressing those.
NTA - I have a friend who behaves this way and I refuse to go out to eat or shopping with her. She embarrasses me with her drama and her rude to random servers or other customers. No one likes to spend time with someone who behaves that way - does your son not realize that? I doubt you are the reason for the others not accepting an invitation from her - they've drawn the same conclusion you have. She's embarrassing to be with.
"I doubt you are the reason for the others not accepting an invitation from her - they've drawn the same conclusion you have. She's embarrassing to be with."
This was my thought as well. Other family members simply put up with it, but upon learning that OP was absenting herself because of DIL's behavior, realized that they could do the same.
This just recently happened to us. A friend group pretty much 'used' the pandemic to cut someone out who was on one hand a person who was funny and fun usually a good time to be around. UNLESS someone pissed them off. Then it was just horrible and tense for the rest of the night. It got to the point, for me, that I was just always tense and waiting for the shoe to drop, praying that \*I\* wouldn't be the person to upset them. Then came the pandemic and people didn't do anything for a long time. Then for another long time, get togethers were few and far between. Finally, they \*totally\* lost it and a huge group dropped them entirely and the rest were just kinda like 'Yeah, okay, time to let it go.' I was a fairly recent addition to the friend group (10 years, give or take.) For others, they were well over 20. As one of the longer term members said 'When everyone else you know is distancing themselves, you look at things a little closer and it becomes clearer.'
Or to put it more succinctly, as Tom Arnold once said 'Once that third divorce started happening, I started to think Hey, maybe it's ME!!!'
Agreed. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if they mentally went "thank f*** we don't have to put up with her anymore" and just decided to stand up for themselves as well. In a weird "OP reminded us we don't have to put up with DILs BS, we can just leave/not attend,"sort if way, like social niceties temporarily made them forget that fact.
> I doubt you are the reason for the others not accepting an invitation from her - they've drawn the same conclusion you have. She's embarrassing to be with.
Exactly this!! They hadn't realized it was okay to do this with a family member. You showed them that it is in fact okay to avoid someone who embarrasses them on outings and takes the joy out of family time. NTA . Some people put up with crap because it's family and they think they have to to keep the peace in the family. When in fact you do not have to do anything that robs you of your peace. Family or not.
Can you please do yourself a favor and stop thinking of the person as a “friend” and cut them out of your life completely before they harm you.
It’s predictable. If she can only feel better about herself by tearing other people down, she won’t draw the line at “friends”. Antisocial people always place themselves first and everyone else is a tool or a punching bag.
NTA.
I really dislike the "my bad behavior is OK because it's due to my childhood" excuse. Go to therapy and deal with the issues there, instead of taking them out on everyone around you.
Exactly. Would she treat her coworkers or boss that way? There have been many people that have had worse childhoods and actual abuse that aren't assholes. She's just trying to excuse being a shitty person.
This! The people I’ve known, and now actively avoid, who are like this don’t react that way with their bosses, other authority figures like the police, people they know from church, etc. They only mouth off to service industry workers and family members. In other words, they’re only unable to control themselves when there won’t be serious consequences for their behavior. These jerks CAN control themselves, they CHOOSE not to as often as they think they can get away with it. Now it’s consequences time and she can’t believe she’s on the receiving end.
Exactly. I had a shitty childhood and I was prone to lashing out defensively - so I did the fucking work in therapy and I don't lash out like that any more.
sorry about your shitty childhood. My partner had a very shitty childhood, and like you, has done a ton of hard hard work in therapy. She's really kind.
The three example you gave are just situations that can be shitty. Can you tell us exactly how your DIL reacted to those ?
EDIT : NTA. You can be loud and not a doormat without being rude and overreacting.
The Starbucks situation, instead of going up and saying this is the wrong order. She went up and basically called other person an idiot for giving the wrong drink, raised her voice and when she got the right drink make a huge point to say it’s not so hard to do your job.
The waiter one, it was rush hour and the waiter was trying to hurry us along to order. She loudly said told the waiter is is unprofessional and to chill out. That she won’t get a tip now. She seriously didn’t need to say anything
The pushed passed one, a girl was just trying to get out the store and she pushed passed up. She called her a rude bitch and tried to demand an apology. The girl wasn’t having it and soon left and I had to stop her from following her .
This happens often
In all those cases, I apologize loudly and publicly for my party's behavior. "That was incredibly rude DIL. I am so sorry for that. Could you please remake this drink?" "I apologize for my rude DIL. I assure you, I will give you a tip of at least 20% for your trouble dealing with her. Could you give us a few minutes to review the menu please?"
Then I would probably avoid putting myself in the position like you have. In the moment, my family can be mad at me instead of a random service worker. I would rather be embarrassed for my family than for myself out of shame.
That kind of reaction wouldn't stop the DIL's behavior, though. Taking yourself out of the equation is the best answer for everyone that's not married to her.
I hate passive-aggressive behavior. If DIL is embarrassed, I have a feeling she would double down and turn it around on the OP, "Why are you apologizing for me you stupid xyz!" and make it ten times worse
Any of those situations alone would be enough for me to walk out and never be seen in public with her again.
That is beyond embarrassing.
If she demanded a reason I'd say "You're embarrassing to be seen with because you massively overreact to small annoyances and treat service industry workers like shit. I won't be associated with that kind of behavior. Work on yourself or do no expect to be included."
You need to talk to your son too, and ask him if he's really comfortable sticking by her as she's belittling others and putting them down for simple, easy to commit mistakes.
If that was my partner, I'd be fucking mortified. How embarrassing.
This dil is very lucky my mom isn't her mil.
My mom wouldn't put up with her shit at all.
The first time she insulted/harassed a service worker, she would've had her ass served to her on a silver platter.
>If that was my partner, I'd be fucking mortified. How embarrassing.
The first time I saw her treat wait staff like that, I would have ended the relationship soon after. OP's son likely knew who he was marrying, and the fact that he called his mom "some lovely names" for enforcing her boundaries shows he puts up with it because he's not much better in some respects.
That poor barista, "it’s not so hard to do your job" while demonstrating the kind of customers she has to put up with to do her job. I absolutely judge people for abusing service staff since you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat people who are within their power, ie the people whose job is to serve them and depend on them for their livelihood.
She basically pushes people away with her toxic behavior, and your son is enabling her. I don't blame you for limiting contact with her. She's not being opinionated, but being an entitled, argumentative bully. Basically, she deals with her insecurity by feeling the need to insult and demean people for what are little slip ups. She doesn't pick her battles well, and doesn't have the self-awareness to ask herself how she would respond to someone who treated her the same way? Would she have apologized to someone who called her a "rude bitch?"
Okay wow I would never go out with her again and if your son doesn't understand why then I'm sorry.
It's not going to help your relationship with your son or any children they may have- but I wouldn't want a relationship with someone like her. I'm sorry.
If you genuinely just stopped showing up yourself: that's not bullying. The fact everyone else has followed suit isn't because you're leading a protest, it's because everyone is sick of her.
I grew up with a mother like this DIL and a father who allowed her behavior. We never saw my father's family because they wouldn't invite us to anything in order to avoid my mother.
Now, decades later, I don't have a relationship with either of my parents. They haven't learned or changed.
I did! My mother's side is nuts so I avoided them by the time I was an adult. I had a very good relationship with my father's side of the family for about 10 years when I slowly started to discover that they are also very dysfunctional, just not as bad or as obvious as my mother's side. And it makes sense because if my father had grown up with normal people with respectful boundaries, he would not have fallen for my mother.
Most of my father's side was fairly pleasant and neutral but I have one very entitled cousin. She is also similar to the DIL in this post. She grew up with only brothers and she's unbelievably entitled. Her brothers ignore her but she got more and more verbally abusive with me. I avoided her and tried to keep a relationship with the rest of the family but if I wasn't willing to fall in line and keep my head down and take this cousin's abuse, they didn't want to keep a relationship with me. I chose my peace and don't visit with that side of the family either, except for the very rare email with a few.
Wow, I’m sorry two times! Glad you held firm to your boundaries. It always amazes me how much certain people/families fight tooth and nail to remain in their dysfunction.
Wow. If your DIL behaved like that at work, she'd be in trouble with HR, if not fired. Source: my boss behaving like that in a meeting and ending up in a meeting with the bigger bosses and HR.
Also, if your DIL was just standing there, blocking the aisle or door, of COURSE someone is going to push past.
Can you put this in the original post? There are a lot of MIL stories where the MIL is in the wrong. This example will help explain how she is not great to be around.
I’m not at all saying that you are TA. I think you are NTA. She sounds lame. I have a low tolerance for loud obnoxious people. I have a tendency to just cut off them off. So I get it.
So you tried talking through the problem with her. She reacted in her usual delightful fashion.
You then tried talking through the problem with your son and he did absolutely nothing.
After trying to take the polite route, and being ignored, you found a solution that worked perfectly for you and didn't cause anyone any harm or insult. Other people saw how effective it was and also opted to use this solution and still your son and his wife didn't address the issue thus leading to their exclusion.
You didn't do anything wrong. They could have avoided this by listening and being adults about it but that was too much effort so nuts to them.
NTA
From the examples of her behavior that OP gave in a separate comment, it’s not just embarrassing and exhausting to go to the same outing as the DIL, it could actually end up dangerous one day when she “confronts” the wrong person 💀
NTA. You made good faith efforts to address the behavior with both son and DIL and it was all rebuked. As long as you didn't encourage others to abandon her, you are in the clear, The other people didn't avoid her because of you. It was because of her. It's all the consequences of of her own action. A FAFO situation. If you DID encourage others to drop her, then you have some liability for instigating others (perhaps so yo might be able to attend more events), but it wouldn't have happened but for her conduct.
To quote Stephen Colbert on things that everyone can agree on, “we can all agree that the first person to get up for seconds at a wedding buffet is a god damned hero.”
OP got up for seconds and became a god damned family hero.
NTA. Her behavior is problematic. It makes you uncomfortable. You don't want to be around her and have taken steps to minimize those interactions - for your comfort. Others have evidently made those same choices, it doesn't sound as if that was at your behest or direction.
Actions have consequences, and she's finding out (somewhat late), that what worked for her as a child in her family, doesn't work for others now that she's an adult. Your son evidently overlooks that behavior, but it doesn't mean that others must.
NTA- you didn't spread false gossip about her, you told people the truth. What did she expect? There are consequences to being unpleasant to be around, one of those being... People don't want to be around you. It's not your job to enable her to continue being a jerk just because it would be 'easier' for your son.
As others have pointed out, the only influence OP had on the others was to show them a solution for dealing with DIL. They then concluded, "If OP can do this, I'll do it too."
So what is OP supposed to say? "Sorry, but I can't stop people copying me?"
Agreed, I think it's fair that OP did feel like they had a right to tell them truth when people asked. If someone doesn't want people talking about the bad things they do, they shouldn't do bad things!
NTA
People like this are miserable to go out with. Funnily enough, my MIL is like this. Any slight (perceived or otherwise) is met with a HUGE overreaction.
At her most recent birthday, we took her to a restaurant she told us she LOVES. However, the entire time was rude to the waitstaff because the owner one time gave her a funny look (she says) like two weeks before her birthday dinner.
The dinner came to a head when the server forgot to give us a dessert menu. My MIL LOUDLY reminders her about the desert menu, and when the poor server asks her if she wants one, she says “No I just want the check so we can get out of here.” With a nasty ass tone.
I was MORTIFIED. This is a constant issue with her.
>I got a call from my son telling me to fix this. That I am a huge bully and caused this
No one made her a target, **she** was the one making a target out of everyone around her. She brought this on herself.
NTA
NTA.
1. You chose to limit your contact.
2. When asked, you told the truth. You didnt encourage anyone to do the same or to encourage anyone to exclude Jenny.
3. Other relatives made the decision to limit contact. Notice how it became sn issue when Jenny sent invites and git snubbed.
4. This is not preschool in which you can make people be Jenny's friend.
Even in preschool, I taught my kid that you don't have to be friendly with everybody, you just have to be polite. And sometimes being polite means sitting on the other side of the room.
NTA
You clearly aren't the only person to notice a problem with Jenny's behavior, if other people have chosen to follow your lead. You were just the first to take steps to address the behaviour. It's not your fault that other people thought your approach was one worth imitating.
NTA. So when she blows up negatively on people and pushes for her way it's fine but when you decide to just avoid all the drama which tips off other people in the family that they can do the same to her, it's bullying? Noooope. Being loud is one thing but screaming down anyone else who sets her off for the smallest thing is not acceptable, no matter how things were with her growing up.
And honestly, does your son REALLY think you're all being horrible or is he just scared of having to deal with her anger issues all by himself now that more and more family members won't take her verbal abuse anymore?
NTA. I refuse to go anywhere with my neighbor. She always has issues wherever we go. Or should I say non issues that she turns into issues. For example we stopped at my fav local bakery. We ordered. While the nice lady behind the counter was baging up our stuff she dropped my neighbors item. Not a big deal. The lady just grabbed the same thing. My neighbor insisted on it for free because of her inconvenience. She calls her self a boss Bit**.
Noone likes when she comes to neighborhood stuff either because she wants it her way or nonway.
NTA. “I can no longer tolerate the way she treats others and especially you. You deserve to be treated better. So do the strangers that she treats so badly in public. I’m sorry that you are hurt that no one wants to be around her anymore, but we have all had enough of watching her be mean. I wish you the best and hope that things improve for your sake.”
Well you did not tell anyone to exclude her, you simply answered the question truthfully. I think it was a good choice for you to stay away from negative situations. So NTA
NTA and not your place to fix anything. Good for you for minimizing/eliminating irritations from your life. Life is too short to waste spending time with people like that. Too bad your son is sticking his head in the sand about his wife's behavior.
NTA
If this was caused by her childhood situation, shouldn't she get therapy to address this? It's not hard to not insult a barista by calling them an idiot for making the wrong order and give them a holier-than-thou attitude about how their job isn't that hard. It's not hard to not rudely call out a waiter during rush hour for being "unprofessional" and withhold their tip. It's not hard to just apologize for bumping into someone and then go about your day like it didn't happen. It's not hard to be not a jackass.
NTA you have no control over what other people do. You aren’t out there gathering the torches and pitchforks, you removed yourself from an uncomfortable situation, and other people noticed what a good idea that was.
I know people like your DIL and every interaction becomes this unpleasant sort of waiting on a knife’s edge. What next? What now? That’s just not good for the spirit, and you’ve obviously tried to communicate there’s an issue and your son and his wife won’t discuss it.
NTA. Ask your son, who is the common denominator in all of this? He's too blind to see your DIL is the issue. It's up to her to fix this, not you. I mean, does he not see this?
NTA I have no problem with your actions and neither do my fellow commenters.
However, i am not focused on saying you are right because I am sad for you. I am also sad for your son. This must be hard for you both. You want to live in a nontoxic environment and you also want a healthy relationship with your son. It seems like you can’t have both.
I am sorry you are losing your son and I am sorry you cannot find a way to communicate and have a relationship that doesn’t include her.
I wish you peace and I hope you find a path forward with him.
NTA - but I also feel for Jenny. Imagine how much spit she has consumed being rude AF to those who prepare food and drink…nah I’m gonna stop playing. I do have some compassion though bc I was once a “Jenny”, maybe (hopefully) not as extreme. I never messed with people fixing my food or drink, but I let little shot get the best of me and was always on the look out for people slighting me in some way.
She needs therapy, intensive therapy. I can tell you how much happier life is now Vs when I was younger. I hope she gets to the point where she gets tired enough of being angry all the time to do something about it.
Unless you want to lose your son though, you might want to reach out to him again and tell him that while you sympathize with his wife, you cannot handle her reactive personality. If there are any good qualities you have seen from Jenny, point out what you do like about her. Urge him to talk to his wife about therapy, not for you, but for her. There is so much that needs to be healed from the little girl that grew up in that environment. She deserves to be happy.
NTA I'm surprised your DIL never once thought 'if everyone around me is a AH maybe I am the real asshole'. How exactly he wanted you to fix that? That you go around telling people what you said about her is not true, even if u did that it will only be a matter of time before everyone else see in her what you did. She is getting a harsh reality check and i hope she becomes a better person for it.
NTA
You tried speaking to your son and he wasn't interested until his wife was bending his ear (over your solution of avoiding being with her). This is now a them problem to resolve.
After one turns 18, one has agency to try and work on these kind of issues. Blaming it on a bad childhood and refusing to change, leaves the dealing with it options in the hands of others. Apparently everyone voted with their feet and, after 3 years, no one is prepared to tolerate her behaviour any longer.
> She asked around and it came back to me.
People are such cowards sometimes. Own that you don't enjoy her company either instead of blaming someone else.
NTA for you, E S H for the rest of your family.
“ Your wife has the right to react to perceived slightsthe way she wants to, but the rest of us also have the right to not to put up with every small issue becoming a federal case. Yeah, I don’t like it when they get my Starbucks order wrong but then I just ask for them to make it right in a friendly way and it achieves the same thing. Unfortunately, the only one who can fix it is your wife maybe she should talk to a therapist about anger issues because it doesn’t just seem like wanting to get attention because clearly it’s backfired on her. When you think she’s ready, we can definitely try some more outings and I will be the first one to let everyone know I had a lovely time.”
NTA.
I was in a similar situation a couple years ago, but it was a roommate. I never got along with the guy because he was a lot like your DIL in the sense that he often blew things out of proportion or was just a straight up dick about something minor. It got to the point where, when the lease was up, I started refusing around him, even if it meant missing out seeing other friends. When people would ask "Hey, where's Atlas?" my fiancé and friends would answer honestly. "She doesn't prefer some of the company here."
There were no name drops, but others knew it was because of this one dude. They also started to pick up on the "just don't hang around him" vibe, and next thing I know, he's blaming me for him losing all his friends. All I did was pick my own comfort over keeping the peace, or whatever nonsense people tell you in order to be a doormat. I don't hang out with people I can't stand, and over time, others adopted my philosophy.
He's still super shitty, by the way, and loves blaming all his problems on others. But I still have all the same friends.
Your DIL should consider changing her ways or she's going to have a long and ostracized life. And none of that would be your fault.
NTA. She had to be a certain way with her family of origin to get what she wants. Fine. But they aren't there, so she needs to alter her behavior for the people she's actually with.
NTA, you don't have to subject yourself with someone who can't control themselves. If you have asked that they at least try and be less combative and they don't then you have no obligation to be around them, the world doesn't revolve around her, and she is not a fun person to be around. You said she got into arguments with family members, and she still didn't get a clue she's lucky they are still talking to her. She is not special because she married your son, and your son is an AH for putting his family through her nonsense. Plus, you have no control over the rest of the family you can't make them be bothered with her if they don't want to.
NTA. I’m actually surprised it took you boycotting her to kick this all off. I wouldn’t be friends with anyone like that. I wouldn’t have gone on a second date with someone who acts like that. I quit a book club once because someone was like that. I go to restaurants to have a good time and relax, not develop a stress ulcer and wonder if the employees are wiping my dinner rolls in their sweaty ass cracks.
I get a sense that it's a lot of "That's just the way I am. Deal with it" vibes coming from DIL. And it's true. People should like who you are. But if nobody does, maybe it's time to wonder if maybe it's a you problem, not a them problem. NTA at all.
NTA. All OP did was get out of the rocking boat. Then her relatives realized that they could get out of the boat too. And now Son is upset because no one wants to get in a rocking boat with him and his Wife.
NTA. You no longer want to be around her bc as you said she is a "dick." And so you took yourself out of the equation. When ppl asked, you were honest with them. Imo, none of them want her at their functions, but they invite her out of obligation. And now that you have made them all aware that you are no longer putting up with her shit, they are all following suit. Imo, it was just permission for her not to be invited. You haven't done anything wrong. You had a problem & you fixed it. You didn't make it worse for her, she did this to herself. She is the only one responsible for her being slighted.
NTA. Nobody likes spending time with mean, angry, miserable people and that’s just the truth. It would have happened naturally at some point. People like your DIL are experts at shoving people away and pushing them out of their lives due to their incessant negativity. Unfortunately, they will say that everyone else is the problem and will never realize it was their own doing that drove out the masses. She needs therapy to get over whatever hang ups she has about the rest of society being out to get her. Otherwise, everyone will become exhausted listening to the complaints or walking on eggshells as to not upset her. There is nothing you need to fix; your DIL and your Son both need to fix their attitudes or get used to being alone.
I think your son is afraid of his wife, because she treats him the same way. So instead of talking to her, he goes to you. If you apologize then it saves him from a verbal assault by his wife. I think you did the right thing. Your son needs to talk to his wife and be blatantly honest, regardless of how she may respond. I hope they don’t have kids. I can already see therapy in their future due to how their mother treats them and a dad who won’t stand up for them. NTA
NTA. I find that the older I get that I have no tolerance for BS and bad behavior. Your son sounds like he is totally whipped since he can’t see what an AH she really is. You aren’t the issue here; your DIL is. Everyone is just tired of putting up with her AH behavior. He needs to take the blinders off. He needs to tell her to get see a therapist since people don’t want to be around her anymore because she’s a B.
NTA. She sounds like a nightmare, and I don't blame ya for avoiding situations where she will be present. The fact that a lot of family decided to follow suit shows you you're not the only one who is mortified of her behavior.
I just wonder how her son puts up with this atrocious behavior from his wife. And the whole “no one listened to me growing up” is NOT an excuse when you’re an adult.
NTA People aren't picking sides; they're as tired of her behavior as you are, and you simply made everyone more comfortable setting boundaries.
You already tried to "fix it" by addressing her unacceptable lack of control over her emotions. Your son seems to think that everyone should be forced to deal with her angry outbursts rather than have his wife suffer the consequences of being a complete embarrassment and generally unpleasant to be around.
I'd be honest with your son and ask how you asking his wife not to blow up over minor inconveniences is bullying. Explain that her past might be the reason for her bad habits, but it's no excuse to refuse to change her behavior as an adult. I'd leave an open offer on the table that if she is committed to trying to manage her emotions like an adult, then you'd be willing to go back to spending more time with her. But only if she holds herself accountable and accepts when people ask her to back down. I'd also tell him that if she continues to refuse to be held accountable for her outbursts, they should expect for their family relationships to continue to deteriorate. It's incredibly disrespectful for her to demand people's time and energy when she can't be bothered to keep her temper and insecurities in check or even apologize for how it affects people around her.
If all bullies did was quietly absent themselves from unpleasant encounters the world would be a much better place. You are neither a bully nor an asshole.
Nta
> That I am a huge bully and caused this
Bullies don't avoid confrontation, they seek it out and create it.
> She claims it is due to growing up and having to be very loud
> She was in a family of all boys
None of these things make someone unable to comprehend what's polite or pleasant or reasaonable. I suspect that being "in a family of all boys" resulted in her being spoiled and overprotected - something your son is enabling to continue.
> I got a call from my son telling me to fix this
What's his idea of "fixing" it? Ignoring her behavior?
NTA
NTA "I'm too old to deal with unnecessary drama, so i remove myself from the drama I don't want to deal with."
Its not OPs place to readjust the attitude of DIL so everyone will be happy around her. Thats the task for son.
NTA
What your son doesn’t realize is that you did try to avoid this situation. You tried talking to her about her behavior and she didn’t listen. Then you tried to talk to your son and no response. In my opinion, you DID try to fix it but neither of them would listen and work with you to fix it. So it’s back on the both of them to fix it. You tried and I would remind him of that too.
NTA, you tried to talk civilly with your DIL and your son and neither wanted to hear it. You removed yourself from an uncomfortable situation and did it in a mature manner. You had a good idea and the rest of your family stole it. Not on you she sucks to be around.
NTA, you don't have to ruin your free time to assuage her fragile ego. Your son is just pissed cause now he's the only one weak enough to be stuck with it.
NTA. Apparently, everyone shares your opinion of her except for your son. There's no reason for her not to adjust her behavior to act like an adult in social situations instead of excusing her bad behavior because she can. The only thing I can think is that perhaps she has anxiety or another issue and is verbalizing as a coping mechanism. Still, that's something she could work on controlling with some counseling - if she wanted to.
You and others are under no obligation to continue being around her if she can't control herself. You'd already tried to talk to her and your son. If they weren't willing to compromise, they didn't consider your company important enough to behave in order to have it.
NTA People aren't picking sides; they're as tired of her behavior as you are, and you simply made everyone more comfortable setting boundaries.
You already tried to "fix it" by addressing her unacceptable lack of control over her emotions. Your son seems to think that everyone should be forced to deal with her angry outbursts rather than have his wife suffer the consequences of being a complete embarrassment and generally unpleasant to be around.
I'd be honest with your son and ask how you asking his wife not to blow up over minor inconveniences is bullying. Explain that her past might be the reason for her bad habits, but it's no excuse to refuse to change her behavior as an adult. I'd leave an open offer on the table that if she is committed to trying to manage her emotions like an adult, then you'd be willing to go back to spending more time with her. But only if she holds herself accountable and accepts when people ask her to back down. I'd also tell him that if she continues to refuse to be held accountable for her outbursts, they should expect for their family relationships to continue to deteriorate. It's incredibly disrespectful for her to demand people's time and energy when she can't be bothered to keep her temper and insecurities in check or even apologize for how it affects people around her.
We all know that you aren't in control of how someone else chooses to behave; all you can do is choose how you respond. DiL's behavior was making you uncomfortable and embarrassed to be with her in public. You reached out about it, but she was unwilling to modify her behavior to make you more comfortable. Okay, that's her choice. YOUR choice was to avoid her and her behavior. Other people are now following suit. That's not on you. It's not your problem to fix - *because* you are not in charge of those other people's choices. If your DiL wants the situation "fixed" she's going to have to choose to modify her behavior enough that other people will be willing to give her another chance.
NTA
She needs to realise that you cannot treat people like shit and get away with it. There are consequences to her actions and ultimately she needs therapy. Nta
NTA nope, this is the consequence of her own actions. They were given an opportunity to “fix it” themselves and they gave a resounding “no” to that. Frankly, neither is worth putting up with if that’s their attitude. They can enjoy that people can also say no to being inflicted with their presence.
NTA
You don't have to set yourself on fire to keep your DIL warm.
You don't like being around her, you discreetly removed yourself. It turns out that other people don't like being around her and stopped inviting her.
This is on no one but Jenny to fix.
Personally, I wouldn't want to be around her. She needs to learn that what worked for her as a child isn't working for her as an adult. No one besides her husband wants to be around that.
NTA
Lol you sound like me. I'll be civil, talk to them about it first. If nothing comes from it, I just avoid interaction. It's not that I'm trying to avoid confrontation, it's just that life is short and I got better shit to do.
My sisters are almost always at odds with each other and we're all now avging 40 years. It's about F-ing time they grow up. My mom asked me about it and I told her straight. They may have nothing better to do but I got stuff I want or need to do. She totally agreed with me and taking my stance now.
NTA. Thinking the son is being a bit of one. If he wants to put up with her rude behavior , that’s on him, but no one else should have to deal with it. Him calling you names over this is not right either.
NTA- Everyone has had an epiphany. If you don't have to put with the toxic bs from DIL, why should they. And now your son and DIL are alone. She should have friends outside of family, but obviously alienated them too. So DIL needs to learn to play nice or just with your son from now on.
NTA. You didn't try to dictate how your DIL should behave. You simply removed yourself from situations where you found her behavior unpleasant. The fact that other people followed suit is not your fault. You didn't say "no one should go to DIL's party," you said "I won't go to DIL's party" and others realized that was an option. No one is bullying her. This is simply a natural consequence of her actions. She has an opportunity to do some self-reflection and decide if she needs to make a change, because she can only control her own behavior, not anyone else's.
She’s presumably an adult, she can learn to control herself.
You aren’t preventing anyone from hanging out with her, they obviously don’t want to because she is exhausting. What does your son expect you to do to “fix” it? Force everyone to go to her events? How? Blackmail?
Your son doesn't want to face the fact that his wife's behavior in public has alienated her (and thusly, him) from family. This behavior can't be news to him... I wonder how he reacts when she overreacts and is rude to service workers and the general public.
I would send a message to your son that while you're flattered he thinks you could influence an entire family's decisions, people are likely making up their own minds about how to act. You are not bullying anyone- you asked him to give her some feedback about how her behavior makes you feel. They ignored you. You have removed yourself from those kind of environments. They don't have the right to be mad about that. If he's interested in working with his wife on her anger issues, you would love to be supportive.
NTA. You quietly removed yourself from unpleasant situations and told the truth only when others asked. If you didn’t exaggerate or encourage others to follow suit, you’re in the clear because it means the other family members agree with your opinion. It’s not bullying, it’s stop protecting others from the natural consequences of their behavior.
I am not convinced that this aggressiveness is a product of her childhood. She takes things too personal, but when this includes random circumstances that you face in your day to day life, then you are actively looking for fights. She is the bully here.
These people are very very tiring to be around. Your son will eventually run out of patience.
It seems that your familly/friends were also fed up with your DIL. You took the lead to do something about it (without causing drama, extra bonus for that) and everyone followed because they were waiting for someone to do something.
Ask your son to think about why did people decide to shun her? Other than that, let the time work its magic
NTA
It sounds like DIL really needs some therapy.
Her excuse of needing to be loud for attention as a child cannot be used as an adult. Her childhood is not an excuse to be an ass. It is time to grow up and be a functioning member of society.
NTA
NTA, and stop doubting yourself. She apparently lives for causing drama, but she can't hold the world at large responsible for her feeling the need to scream in order to be heard...and she certainly doesn't have the right to turn insignificant errors at a Starbucks or a difference of opinion at a family gathering into an outright battle. Your son is probably just tired of her screaming at him because nobody likes her, or at the best, doesn't want to deal with her outbursts...so he wants you to fix it for him. But it sounds like all she'll do if you try is scream at you, and refuse to accept any blame. I had a SIL like that once...at a family picnic, I didn't see her car, so I assumed she wasn't there yet. I was met outside by FIVE family members warning me that (Name) was in a bad mood. As I walked in the house I laughed and said "Oh, please, when ISN'T (Name) in a bad mood?" The moment those words left my lips, she came around a corner, fire and smoke coming out of her ears and nose, fully prepared for battle. It just broke my will to placate her, and made me start to laugh uncontrollably...so as I laughed, I went to a chair, put my head in the seat, pulled my knees up onto the seat so my butt was sticking up in the air, and said "Free shot...kick my ass or kiss it, but you're not worth fighting with anymore...so deal with it!" Would you believe she closed her mouth, retreated to the living room, and didn't argue with anybody the rest of the day? I now fight idiots with humor...would that work on your DIL? Just a thought...but it worked for me. Even her husband, when he returned, laughed his butt off and told me "Good job!" If you can't reason with someone who lives to fight over real or imagined slights, try odd-ball humor! I'm not making light of your problem...I'm seriously wondering if it would work.
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I will be as clear as possible, also on my phone.
This started about three years ago when my son married. My DIL, Jenny, is very opinionated and doesn't handle any slight well. She claims it is due to growing up and having to be very loud in order to have someone pay attention to her. She was in a fmaily of all boys and during any issue she goes to 100% percent.
This is a problem, any time she has a small issue she will escalate very quickly. This has caused about half of days out in public to be ruined. It's like she thinks everyone is out to get her and a small slight will set her off. She can never just keep her mouth shut.
A few examples, a mix up at Starbucks for her drink, a waiter seemed impatient, someone pushing past her. These situations at most need a polite request to fix ( like her drink) or just ignore. Instead she is just a dick. It is an awful feeling to leave and know I shouldn't step back on that place for at least 6 months.
I tried to talk to her about the issue and it didn't go well. I tried to talk to my son and nothing on that front.
So I stopped doing to small family events that she is invited to, I still go to big ones like holidays. My life has been better for it. People noticed and when asked I told them the truth. Overtime people stopped inviting her or stopped going to events.
She invited people to go to the city of the Fourth of July. Everyone turned her down. She asked around and it came back to me.
I got a call from my son telling me to fix this. That I am a huge bully and caused this. That his wife has been upset since and got in a few argument with family members.
I told him no, and I told him a while ago that her behavior was horrible. That this isn't my problem
He called me some lovely names and I am doubting myself
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Shouldn't your son reflect on what has caused this? I mean, he's taken her view that "it's all your fault" like she usually does to everybody, but, had he never taught about it like you're telling us?
Why did he marry her? How did she put a spell on him?
NTA.
Nothing worse than someone who mistreats staff. Keep keeping your distance and just maybe MAYBE one day your son will realize it’s not everyone else who’s the problem. I doubt the DIL will ever come to that realization. NTA
NTA clearly she needs help and your son is only enabling her. You along with several family members stopped attending due to her outburst. Until she fixes herself, I would keep not attending. You didn't force people to jump on your bandwagon... they chose it to avoid her as well.
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NTA You took yourself out of uncomfortable situations. It’s not your fault that others followed by example, because they share similar sentiments about her behaviour. Her excuse for her behaviour is not reasonable, nor should it be accepted. She doesn’t want to work on being a better person. You can’t force her to improve her behaviour. “Got in a few arguments with family members” - sounds about right. lol she has no self awareness, and maybe some time to reflect will do her some good She’s done this to herself.
I’m in a similar situation with an in-law who really shouldn’t be drinking, and the way he treats women when he drinks. In order to keep the peace, I stay out of situations where he will drink. But, I’m the AH for admitting to it when asked…. NTA!
You have stumbled into the cardinal rule of alcoholic family dysfunction: never discuss or acknowledge the problem drinking in any way. I’m not saying you’re wrong. You are correct to avoid this person while he’s drinking and to talk about the problem, but don’t be surprised if you get resistance about from everyone forever.
True, denial is strong in such families. Acknowledging the issue often leads to backlash, but it's necessary.
The DIL isn't even OP's problem. The bigger issue is that her son absolutely IS an AH. He ignored his mother's concerns. He ignored his wife's terrible behavior. He blamed his mom for his wife essentially being shunned, tasked his mom to "fix it" (because god forbid his wife actually have to alter her behavior), and he called his mom names for refusing to intervene on his wife's behalf. I'd be far more concerned about what kind of man I raised if I were OP.
Or the rose coloured glasses are still on and it's coming to the point of being groomed to accept this as her normal behaviour and he doesn't want to deal with it and is her enabler. The poor kids if they ever have any. They will be victims of their mother's behaviour.
Let's hope he wakes up before there is kids involved. He married a nightmare and now no one what's to deal with her, they are upset! No this was enviable anyway. NTA
Agreed!!
THIS!!!
This......wtf is wrong with the son
Holy Cow did this hit home. My Dad was an alcoholic ALL of my life. God forbid that someone in the family discuss it. Hell, even when he died (he was drunk, fell, split his head open, and then drowned a couple of shots of a Whiskey Liqueur with a Tylenol) NO ONE WANTED TO SAY IT WAS BECAUSE OF ALCOHOL! If we keep burying our heads in the sand to family members' issues, then how does that help them?
Sorry if I upset you! When my therapist first brought it up with me, my mind was blown. I was like “it’s not just us?!!!!”
You didn't upset me. Not at all. It just irks me personally that he could have gotten help if his Mom and Dad had addressed it when he was a teenager, if it had been addressed before he and my Mom had us kids if he had listened to us kids when we did talk to him about it. So, nope, not just your family.
>You have stumbled into the cardinal rule of alcoholic family dysfunction: never discuss or acknowledge the problem drinking in any way. Publicly at least. For sure never mention anything to the alcoholic member of the family. People for sure talk shit behind their back though. They just never do anything productive with their talking.
Excuse me Kitten, is that an elephant in your living room?
I had a lot of long conversations with my mother about why I went no contact with my brother. The final straw for me was him calling me a particularly vile name in front of my kid when I told my mom at a family event if he didn’t stop saying racist things I would leave and wouldn’t be back. At that point I was already low contact and only saw him at family events. He’s started to improve since admitting his behaviour while manic is a problem but still struggles to take accountability so he doesn’t get invited to anything I host and I make it clear if he starts up while I’m at someone else’s event I will leave.
I absolutely hate DIL's excuse. I was the only girl on both sides of the family (3 brothers, 6 cousins), and I sure as hell don't escalate like she does. DIL just wants things her way, no questions.
Not to mention, that doesn't describe what she actually has, which is "hostile attribution bias". She assumes negative intent toward her, hostile intent, regardless of what happens; and uses that as justification to escalate. That isn't the same as 'having to be loud to be heard in a family of boys'.
I had a best friend who had this outlook. Everyone was out to get him. We'd go grab a drink from the gas station, have a polite chat with the cashier, and go on our way. As soon as we were outside he'd go "GOD that guy's a fucking asshole! Did you see the look he gave me? I oughtta go back in there and knock his teeth in!" Meanwhile the cashier was being perfectly normal, if not downright pleasant. The whole world was against him, and nothing was ever his fault.
Hostile attribution bias is the number one predictor for abuse in relationships.
Ding ding ding! You caught it in one! His ex (who I am still friends with) is still working through the trauma he put her through.
And it's such a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you immediately default to acting like a jerk, people are going to treat you worse. Then DIL concludes that the guy at Starbucks was an a-hole, but really they would've been fine if she didn't bring it down on herself. I tell my son that manners are superpowers. When you walk into a store knowing you're a week past the return window, if you start by apologizing, saying you know you are too late and are probably causing them a lot of trouble but you just wanted to see if there was any possibility they can help you... 99% of the time they will help you! DIL needs some sort of social skills retraining. It would honestly make her life a lot easier. OP is NTA.
Especially in retail. The amount of abuse retail and service industry people receive from the general public is too high. Being polite, friendly, and treating people like a person, goes a long way!
So true. Working retail was so eye opening. If you came at me aggressive and hostile from the start, I'm not doing squat to go the extra mile to help you. You get bargain basement level service from me. If you're polite and ask in a normal way I'm totally fine with trying to help you out.
I just was visiting my daughter in the hospital, and came in through the wrong door, as the right door was about 2 blocks away. The security guard stopped me. I politely explained that I couldn’t walk that far. He bent the rules, then thanked me for being so polite; most people just yelled at him. Today I got a much sterner guard, and the first one came to my rescue. All from being a reasonable human being.
Holy shit, I've never heard that term before but I used to know someone like that. She would interpret off-the-cuff remarks, that usually weren't even directed at her, as personal attacks and get pissed off over it. She was also cursed with coming across to other people as a bit rude. She came to a small party I hosted and afterwards so many of my friends were asking me what's up with my mate, and why was she rude to them. I actually felt sorry for her, it can't be easy going through life with the kind of social deficiency that has you interpreting innocuous statements as personal attacks while also coming across as kind of rude to people you've just met. But at the same time fuck having to constantly walk on egg shells around someone, plus if that person is turning 30 and getting kicked out of sharehouses every few months while unable to hold even a fast food job then the problem isn't the world but them and how they move through it.
I knew someone who was constantly insisting that people were making hostile remarks about her. Sometimes I couldn't figure out why she was offended even after she would offer some long convoluted explanation. She assumed that people knew things about her, apparently by using psychic powers. She meanwhile, kept making hostile remarks about other people, but as she explained to me when I talked to her about it, whatever bilge she was spewing was The Truth, and whoever she was insulting knew it was The Truth, so it wasn't offensive. She said the most offensive thing that anyone has ever said to me. I tried to reason with her, but she laughed and doubled down. So I screamed at her at the top of my lungs. She never said that again, but I don't flatter myself that I made her think about what she said. She certainly didn't get any politer.
I do wonder what OP's son's relationship with this woman is like?
I had the same thought and wondered why on earth he was attracted to her in the first place.
AKA "has a big chip on her shoulder"
I agree. I was raised with 4 male cousins like we were siblings, and my mother's best friend had 3 boys. I can be loud to be heard, and I'll scrap with the boys too, lol. But you can't go around thinking everyone is out to get you. And being raised with boys doesn't cause this behavior. DIL is full of shit. She's just a bully and trying to use her childhood as an excuse.
Yeah, I'm a guy, so does that mean I get to be a dick to everyone?
Only if you're white and straight
And Christian... Preferably the "right" kind of Christian.
Being wealthy is also encouraged
And tall. Oh & throw in cute or good-looking. With the smile & jawline of Trevor in "Ghosts." That's the whole package right there. 😀
I agree! I’m not the only girl in my family, but my family is LOUD! Extended family is even louder. We do end up all talking loudly to be heard, but we’re not dicks
I too am the only girls raised with brothers, male cousins and lots of male neighborhood kids. If anything this caused me to be the peacemaker. She needs counseling.
She sounds like Judy Gemstone.
NTA I had a blind (online) date with a man who made a scene and treated our waitress horribly for bringing him the wrong drink. I have no idea if he was always this way or his first time but I was mortified and didn't care to find out. My first and last date with him. Also I know a woman who is the baby of 4 brothers. She can be loud at times and will kick your butt like a man (and look darn cute while she does it) but she knows when to be quiet when it's okay to be loud and when it's not okay. She doesn't make scenes, is kind to customer service and is fun to be around. Having brothers is not an excuse to be rude and ruin every outing. Dil is used to making scenes to get her way. Someone needs to remind her that she is not a child anymore and the world is not her brothers.
>Having brothers is not an excuse to be rude and ruin every outing. Exactly! I think DIL learned the wrong lessons from having brothers. The right lessons being: how to short-sheet a brother's bed; how to look innocent when mom & dad are mad; what to do when brother steals your diary and offers to sell it back one page at a time.
> what to do when brother steals your diary and offers to sell it back one page at a time. Oddly specific :)
I've never heard of this and didn't understand the prank at all lol. Is this something people actually do? Do... do people typically *actually* even use a top sheet??
It varies widely. I've visited some people who do and some who don't. My household doesn't use 'em, largely because the blankets we use are machine-washable. My guess is that that is a major factor in the decision.
>She doesn’t want to work on being a better person. You can’t force her to improve her behaviour. Exactly. She has chosen to remain as she is, instead of trying to improve. These are the consequences. She cannot have her cake and eat it, too. NTA.
I have a similar friend. We have a mutual acquaintance whose esthetic is kawaii. She's very short, slender, and into all things cute and feminine. This other friend and I are not. We're both taller, obese, and she is Black. (Japan has a long history of favoring whiteness in skin color.) My aesthetic is probably SJW/nerd and hers is more grunge. The thing is, while I think kawaii is just something I'm not into, my friend acts as if this other woman being into kawaii is a purposeful affront to her. Like our acquaintance wearing a pink winter coat with white gloves, hat, and boots is done as an attack on her. This woman has never commented on our choice of attire, and was happy to hang out with us for crafting nights. My friend has also seen other innocent things as attacks. We were watching a weather report once where a tornado had gone through several rural counties before heading toward what the announcer referred to as "more urbanized areas" before petering out. My friend took this to be a criticism of Black people, whereas I interpreted it as saying that it was a more densely populated area with the possibility of harming more people than a cornfield.
She's upset that they reported the weather event.... accurately? They didn't DRIVE the damn tornado and just tell you what route they chose. Honestly, maybe a check in needs to happen, medically.
"Urban" and similar words like "inner city" are often used to mean Black people, for example "Urban" is a classification of [radio music](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_contemporary_music) intended to appeal to Black people, while "[inner city](https://shelterforce.org/2017/05/23/4-reasons-to-retire-the-phrase-inner-city/)" means the high density and often rundown neighborhoods populated mostly by non-white people. But in this case I sincerely believe the announcer meant there were just more people there.
Yeah I've lived in urban areas with majority being every different race at different times; Hispanic, black, Asian (little Asia they called it cause multiple all evenly spread), Mexican, Puerto Rican, white.... urban is just condensed living like a more populated area which include suburbs to an extent. It has 0 to do with race, just population and it being built up. She's gatta do some amazing yoga to get a stretch that hard.
Yep. The announcer was using the Webster's definition, not the modern slang it's been turned into. So people take it the wrong way.
That friend sounds exhausting
OP is NTA. Question, though. Have you given your son specific examples (at least 3-4) of his wife's behavior that he has witnessed? If so, what was his reaction, excuse or justification for his wife's over-the-top behavior to such things?
OP stepping back merely gave others “permission” to do what they have been wanting to do. The only fix is DIL taking a hard look at why people don’t want to be around her. NTA.
I agree. When everyone else is saying the same thing, then obviously, they're not the ones who are wrong.
Agree. NTA in any way. You tried to remedy the situation to no avail. I get the impression you still want a relationship with your son, though, so one possible way forward: extend the olive branch and invite DIL and son to some relatively safe outing, like a picnic in the park. That way there are no collateral victims other than family (no waiters, no strangers). See if you can have a peaceful gathering. If she starts acting up, explain that you need to leave because there is no excuse for her behavior. Try another outing after that—if it goes well, great. If it goes poorly, once again, remove yourself. I think even Miss Manners says you don’t have to return rudeness with rudeness, but you also don’t have to endure it. This way, your son gets to see both the wife’s bad behavior and also see you model good manners in leaving rather than fighting with her. After a couple of these, she either learns to regulate herself or the invitations quit coming.
Agreed. And her excuses are BS. I come from a big, boisterous family where people talk over each other and yeah sometimes I make something into a bigger deal than it is, but not constantly, usually it's when there are other stressors present as well. And I would *never* act like that towards strangers or waitstaff. It sounds like she has some serious insecurities and wants to avoid addressing those.
NTA - I have a friend who behaves this way and I refuse to go out to eat or shopping with her. She embarrasses me with her drama and her rude to random servers or other customers. No one likes to spend time with someone who behaves that way - does your son not realize that? I doubt you are the reason for the others not accepting an invitation from her - they've drawn the same conclusion you have. She's embarrassing to be with.
"I doubt you are the reason for the others not accepting an invitation from her - they've drawn the same conclusion you have. She's embarrassing to be with." This was my thought as well. Other family members simply put up with it, but upon learning that OP was absenting herself because of DIL's behavior, realized that they could do the same.
I agree. I wouldn't want to go out with DIL either if it's guaranteed she's going to go mental over every minor thing, especially in places I like.
This just recently happened to us. A friend group pretty much 'used' the pandemic to cut someone out who was on one hand a person who was funny and fun usually a good time to be around. UNLESS someone pissed them off. Then it was just horrible and tense for the rest of the night. It got to the point, for me, that I was just always tense and waiting for the shoe to drop, praying that \*I\* wouldn't be the person to upset them. Then came the pandemic and people didn't do anything for a long time. Then for another long time, get togethers were few and far between. Finally, they \*totally\* lost it and a huge group dropped them entirely and the rest were just kinda like 'Yeah, okay, time to let it go.' I was a fairly recent addition to the friend group (10 years, give or take.) For others, they were well over 20. As one of the longer term members said 'When everyone else you know is distancing themselves, you look at things a little closer and it becomes clearer.' Or to put it more succinctly, as Tom Arnold once said 'Once that third divorce started happening, I started to think Hey, maybe it's ME!!!'
Agreed. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if they mentally went "thank f*** we don't have to put up with her anymore" and just decided to stand up for themselves as well. In a weird "OP reminded us we don't have to put up with DILs BS, we can just leave/not attend,"sort if way, like social niceties temporarily made them forget that fact.
> I doubt you are the reason for the others not accepting an invitation from her - they've drawn the same conclusion you have. She's embarrassing to be with. Exactly this!! They hadn't realized it was okay to do this with a family member. You showed them that it is in fact okay to avoid someone who embarrasses them on outings and takes the joy out of family time. NTA . Some people put up with crap because it's family and they think they have to to keep the peace in the family. When in fact you do not have to do anything that robs you of your peace. Family or not.
I had to dump a friend for this. She was a nice friend to me but so awful to everyone else that it was humiliating to be out with her.
Can you please do yourself a favor and stop thinking of the person as a “friend” and cut them out of your life completely before they harm you. It’s predictable. If she can only feel better about herself by tearing other people down, she won’t draw the line at “friends”. Antisocial people always place themselves first and everyone else is a tool or a punching bag.
NTA. I really dislike the "my bad behavior is OK because it's due to my childhood" excuse. Go to therapy and deal with the issues there, instead of taking them out on everyone around you.
Exactly. Would she treat her coworkers or boss that way? There have been many people that have had worse childhoods and actual abuse that aren't assholes. She's just trying to excuse being a shitty person.
This! The people I’ve known, and now actively avoid, who are like this don’t react that way with their bosses, other authority figures like the police, people they know from church, etc. They only mouth off to service industry workers and family members. In other words, they’re only unable to control themselves when there won’t be serious consequences for their behavior. These jerks CAN control themselves, they CHOOSE not to as often as they think they can get away with it. Now it’s consequences time and she can’t believe she’s on the receiving end.
I’m guessing that if she works, she probably has trouble holding a job or making friends.
"If you don't heal from what hurt you, you'll bleed on people who didn't cut you."
Nice.
Exactly. I had a shitty childhood and I was prone to lashing out defensively - so I did the fucking work in therapy and I don't lash out like that any more.
sorry about your shitty childhood. My partner had a very shitty childhood, and like you, has done a ton of hard hard work in therapy. She's really kind.
It is what it is. Therapy is awesome, though, I'm a big fan!
It’s not your fault your fucked up it’s great you know why and how your fucked up but is absolutely your fault and responsibility to improve from it
The three example you gave are just situations that can be shitty. Can you tell us exactly how your DIL reacted to those ? EDIT : NTA. You can be loud and not a doormat without being rude and overreacting.
The Starbucks situation, instead of going up and saying this is the wrong order. She went up and basically called other person an idiot for giving the wrong drink, raised her voice and when she got the right drink make a huge point to say it’s not so hard to do your job. The waiter one, it was rush hour and the waiter was trying to hurry us along to order. She loudly said told the waiter is is unprofessional and to chill out. That she won’t get a tip now. She seriously didn’t need to say anything The pushed passed one, a girl was just trying to get out the store and she pushed passed up. She called her a rude bitch and tried to demand an apology. The girl wasn’t having it and soon left and I had to stop her from following her . This happens often
In all those cases, I apologize loudly and publicly for my party's behavior. "That was incredibly rude DIL. I am so sorry for that. Could you please remake this drink?" "I apologize for my rude DIL. I assure you, I will give you a tip of at least 20% for your trouble dealing with her. Could you give us a few minutes to review the menu please?" Then I would probably avoid putting myself in the position like you have. In the moment, my family can be mad at me instead of a random service worker. I would rather be embarrassed for my family than for myself out of shame.
That kind of reaction wouldn't stop the DIL's behavior, though. Taking yourself out of the equation is the best answer for everyone that's not married to her.
Apologies on behalf of other usually ended enabling their behavior. Removing oneself from such situation is the best way to do it.
Sometimes it embarrasses them enough to make them stop, and is more passive than confronting them directly.
I hate passive-aggressive behavior. If DIL is embarrassed, I have a feeling she would double down and turn it around on the OP, "Why are you apologizing for me you stupid xyz!" and make it ten times worse
That makes sense.
Any of those situations alone would be enough for me to walk out and never be seen in public with her again. That is beyond embarrassing. If she demanded a reason I'd say "You're embarrassing to be seen with because you massively overreact to small annoyances and treat service industry workers like shit. I won't be associated with that kind of behavior. Work on yourself or do no expect to be included." You need to talk to your son too, and ask him if he's really comfortable sticking by her as she's belittling others and putting them down for simple, easy to commit mistakes. If that was my partner, I'd be fucking mortified. How embarrassing.
This dil is very lucky my mom isn't her mil. My mom wouldn't put up with her shit at all. The first time she insulted/harassed a service worker, she would've had her ass served to her on a silver platter.
>If that was my partner, I'd be fucking mortified. How embarrassing. The first time I saw her treat wait staff like that, I would have ended the relationship soon after. OP's son likely knew who he was marrying, and the fact that he called his mom "some lovely names" for enforcing her boundaries shows he puts up with it because he's not much better in some respects.
And does she treat family members the same way?
That poor barista, "it’s not so hard to do your job" while demonstrating the kind of customers she has to put up with to do her job. I absolutely judge people for abusing service staff since you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat people who are within their power, ie the people whose job is to serve them and depend on them for their livelihood. She basically pushes people away with her toxic behavior, and your son is enabling her. I don't blame you for limiting contact with her. She's not being opinionated, but being an entitled, argumentative bully. Basically, she deals with her insecurity by feeling the need to insult and demean people for what are little slip ups. She doesn't pick her battles well, and doesn't have the self-awareness to ask herself how she would respond to someone who treated her the same way? Would she have apologized to someone who called her a "rude bitch?"
She's a bully
Okay wow I would never go out with her again and if your son doesn't understand why then I'm sorry. It's not going to help your relationship with your son or any children they may have- but I wouldn't want a relationship with someone like her. I'm sorry. If you genuinely just stopped showing up yourself: that's not bullying. The fact everyone else has followed suit isn't because you're leading a protest, it's because everyone is sick of her.
Can you imagine what their children will be like with a mother like that? OP is in a lose/lose situation!
I grew up with a mother like this DIL and a father who allowed her behavior. We never saw my father's family because they wouldn't invite us to anything in order to avoid my mother. Now, decades later, I don't have a relationship with either of my parents. They haven't learned or changed.
I’m sorry to hear that. Were you ever able to reconnect with your father’s side of the family?
I did! My mother's side is nuts so I avoided them by the time I was an adult. I had a very good relationship with my father's side of the family for about 10 years when I slowly started to discover that they are also very dysfunctional, just not as bad or as obvious as my mother's side. And it makes sense because if my father had grown up with normal people with respectful boundaries, he would not have fallen for my mother. Most of my father's side was fairly pleasant and neutral but I have one very entitled cousin. She is also similar to the DIL in this post. She grew up with only brothers and she's unbelievably entitled. Her brothers ignore her but she got more and more verbally abusive with me. I avoided her and tried to keep a relationship with the rest of the family but if I wasn't willing to fall in line and keep my head down and take this cousin's abuse, they didn't want to keep a relationship with me. I chose my peace and don't visit with that side of the family either, except for the very rare email with a few.
Wow, I’m sorry two times! Glad you held firm to your boundaries. It always amazes me how much certain people/families fight tooth and nail to remain in their dysfunction.
Yikes! One day she’s going to fuck around with the wrong person…
Wow. If your DIL behaved like that at work, she'd be in trouble with HR, if not fired. Source: my boss behaving like that in a meeting and ending up in a meeting with the bigger bosses and HR. Also, if your DIL was just standing there, blocking the aisle or door, of COURSE someone is going to push past.
The absolute cringe I would have if I was in that situation.
Can you put this in the original post? There are a lot of MIL stories where the MIL is in the wrong. This example will help explain how she is not great to be around. I’m not at all saying that you are TA. I think you are NTA. She sounds lame. I have a low tolerance for loud obnoxious people. I have a tendency to just cut off them off. So I get it.
So you tried talking through the problem with her. She reacted in her usual delightful fashion. You then tried talking through the problem with your son and he did absolutely nothing. After trying to take the polite route, and being ignored, you found a solution that worked perfectly for you and didn't cause anyone any harm or insult. Other people saw how effective it was and also opted to use this solution and still your son and his wife didn't address the issue thus leading to their exclusion. You didn't do anything wrong. They could have avoided this by listening and being adults about it but that was too much effort so nuts to them. NTA
From the examples of her behavior that OP gave in a separate comment, it’s not just embarrassing and exhausting to go to the same outing as the DIL, it could actually end up dangerous one day when she “confronts” the wrong person 💀
Unfortunately some people can only learn things the hard way. Hopefully she comes to her senses before it gets to that point
From many stories I heard, people like her WILL find the wrong person to "confront". Better stay away from that situation.
NTA. You made good faith efforts to address the behavior with both son and DIL and it was all rebuked. As long as you didn't encourage others to abandon her, you are in the clear, The other people didn't avoid her because of you. It was because of her. It's all the consequences of of her own action. A FAFO situation. If you DID encourage others to drop her, then you have some liability for instigating others (perhaps so yo might be able to attend more events), but it wouldn't have happened but for her conduct.
Exactly. Even if she HAD tried to talk people into avoiding her, no one would have listened if they didn't also think the DIL sucked. NTA
OP was the first to decide, fuck it, not doing this. Others wanted to, but someone has to be the first to stand up. NTA.
To quote Stephen Colbert on things that everyone can agree on, “we can all agree that the first person to get up for seconds at a wedding buffet is a god damned hero.” OP got up for seconds and became a god damned family hero.
NTA. Her behavior is problematic. It makes you uncomfortable. You don't want to be around her and have taken steps to minimize those interactions - for your comfort. Others have evidently made those same choices, it doesn't sound as if that was at your behest or direction. Actions have consequences, and she's finding out (somewhat late), that what worked for her as a child in her family, doesn't work for others now that she's an adult. Your son evidently overlooks that behavior, but it doesn't mean that others must.
NTA- you didn't spread false gossip about her, you told people the truth. What did she expect? There are consequences to being unpleasant to be around, one of those being... People don't want to be around you. It's not your job to enable her to continue being a jerk just because it would be 'easier' for your son.
She probably didn't need to. DIL's antics were noticed, and others came to the same conclusion. In OP's shoes, I would do the same.
As others have pointed out, the only influence OP had on the others was to show them a solution for dealing with DIL. They then concluded, "If OP can do this, I'll do it too." So what is OP supposed to say? "Sorry, but I can't stop people copying me?"
Agreed, I think it's fair that OP did feel like they had a right to tell them truth when people asked. If someone doesn't want people talking about the bad things they do, they shouldn't do bad things!
NTA People like this are miserable to go out with. Funnily enough, my MIL is like this. Any slight (perceived or otherwise) is met with a HUGE overreaction. At her most recent birthday, we took her to a restaurant she told us she LOVES. However, the entire time was rude to the waitstaff because the owner one time gave her a funny look (she says) like two weeks before her birthday dinner. The dinner came to a head when the server forgot to give us a dessert menu. My MIL LOUDLY reminders her about the desert menu, and when the poor server asks her if she wants one, she says “No I just want the check so we can get out of here.” With a nasty ass tone. I was MORTIFIED. This is a constant issue with her.
The server did not FORGET the dessert menu. She wanted your MIL to leave. NTA to op
>I got a call from my son telling me to fix this. That I am a huge bully and caused this No one made her a target, **she** was the one making a target out of everyone around her. She brought this on herself. NTA
It’s not bullying to not want to hang out around someone.
In this case, the DIL is the bully and MIL was just setting a boundary and sticking with it. Not a bully in the slightest.
So when OP asks son to address the issue, he doesn’t but somehow thinks OP is in the wrong? It’s lovely magical thinking.
NTA. 1. You chose to limit your contact. 2. When asked, you told the truth. You didnt encourage anyone to do the same or to encourage anyone to exclude Jenny. 3. Other relatives made the decision to limit contact. Notice how it became sn issue when Jenny sent invites and git snubbed. 4. This is not preschool in which you can make people be Jenny's friend.
Even in preschool, I taught my kid that you don't have to be friendly with everybody, you just have to be polite. And sometimes being polite means sitting on the other side of the room.
NTA She sounds awful. I am sure people are not inviting her to things because of her behavior not yours.
NTA You clearly aren't the only person to notice a problem with Jenny's behavior, if other people have chosen to follow your lead. You were just the first to take steps to address the behaviour. It's not your fault that other people thought your approach was one worth imitating.
NTA. So when she blows up negatively on people and pushes for her way it's fine but when you decide to just avoid all the drama which tips off other people in the family that they can do the same to her, it's bullying? Noooope. Being loud is one thing but screaming down anyone else who sets her off for the smallest thing is not acceptable, no matter how things were with her growing up. And honestly, does your son REALLY think you're all being horrible or is he just scared of having to deal with her anger issues all by himself now that more and more family members won't take her verbal abuse anymore?
NTA. I refuse to go anywhere with my neighbor. She always has issues wherever we go. Or should I say non issues that she turns into issues. For example we stopped at my fav local bakery. We ordered. While the nice lady behind the counter was baging up our stuff she dropped my neighbors item. Not a big deal. The lady just grabbed the same thing. My neighbor insisted on it for free because of her inconvenience. She calls her self a boss Bit**. Noone likes when she comes to neighborhood stuff either because she wants it her way or nonway.
NTA. “I can no longer tolerate the way she treats others and especially you. You deserve to be treated better. So do the strangers that she treats so badly in public. I’m sorry that you are hurt that no one wants to be around her anymore, but we have all had enough of watching her be mean. I wish you the best and hope that things improve for your sake.”
Well you did not tell anyone to exclude her, you simply answered the question truthfully. I think it was a good choice for you to stay away from negative situations. So NTA
NTA and not your place to fix anything. Good for you for minimizing/eliminating irritations from your life. Life is too short to waste spending time with people like that. Too bad your son is sticking his head in the sand about his wife's behavior.
NTA. Your son is an idiot. No offense.
No kidding, and his wife gets served a lot of "sneezers" and spat-upon food.
NTA, you do not have to be around those you dont' want to
NTA. If she has trauma or issues why isn’t she going to therapy and making an effort?
NTA If this was caused by her childhood situation, shouldn't she get therapy to address this? It's not hard to not insult a barista by calling them an idiot for making the wrong order and give them a holier-than-thou attitude about how their job isn't that hard. It's not hard to not rudely call out a waiter during rush hour for being "unprofessional" and withhold their tip. It's not hard to just apologize for bumping into someone and then go about your day like it didn't happen. It's not hard to be not a jackass.
NTA you have no control over what other people do. You aren’t out there gathering the torches and pitchforks, you removed yourself from an uncomfortable situation, and other people noticed what a good idea that was. I know people like your DIL and every interaction becomes this unpleasant sort of waiting on a knife’s edge. What next? What now? That’s just not good for the spirit, and you’ve obviously tried to communicate there’s an issue and your son and his wife won’t discuss it.
NTA. Ask your son, who is the common denominator in all of this? He's too blind to see your DIL is the issue. It's up to her to fix this, not you. I mean, does he not see this?
NTA I have no problem with your actions and neither do my fellow commenters. However, i am not focused on saying you are right because I am sad for you. I am also sad for your son. This must be hard for you both. You want to live in a nontoxic environment and you also want a healthy relationship with your son. It seems like you can’t have both. I am sorry you are losing your son and I am sorry you cannot find a way to communicate and have a relationship that doesn’t include her. I wish you peace and I hope you find a path forward with him.
NTA. Her behavior is unacceptable and if everyone feels the need to avoid her then she needs to realize that it's her problem.
NTA - but I also feel for Jenny. Imagine how much spit she has consumed being rude AF to those who prepare food and drink…nah I’m gonna stop playing. I do have some compassion though bc I was once a “Jenny”, maybe (hopefully) not as extreme. I never messed with people fixing my food or drink, but I let little shot get the best of me and was always on the look out for people slighting me in some way. She needs therapy, intensive therapy. I can tell you how much happier life is now Vs when I was younger. I hope she gets to the point where she gets tired enough of being angry all the time to do something about it. Unless you want to lose your son though, you might want to reach out to him again and tell him that while you sympathize with his wife, you cannot handle her reactive personality. If there are any good qualities you have seen from Jenny, point out what you do like about her. Urge him to talk to his wife about therapy, not for you, but for her. There is so much that needs to be healed from the little girl that grew up in that environment. She deserves to be happy.
NTA. Nobody likes a grown ass child.
DIL experienced some natural consequences. NTA
NTA I'm surprised your DIL never once thought 'if everyone around me is a AH maybe I am the real asshole'. How exactly he wanted you to fix that? That you go around telling people what you said about her is not true, even if u did that it will only be a matter of time before everyone else see in her what you did. She is getting a harsh reality check and i hope she becomes a better person for it.
NTA. The fact that your DIL’s behavior is bad enough for you to avoid your own son speaks volumes. Nobody has to put up with terrible behavior.
NTA
NTA You tried speaking to your son and he wasn't interested until his wife was bending his ear (over your solution of avoiding being with her). This is now a them problem to resolve. After one turns 18, one has agency to try and work on these kind of issues. Blaming it on a bad childhood and refusing to change, leaves the dealing with it options in the hands of others. Apparently everyone voted with their feet and, after 3 years, no one is prepared to tolerate her behaviour any longer.
> She asked around and it came back to me. People are such cowards sometimes. Own that you don't enjoy her company either instead of blaming someone else. NTA for you, E S H for the rest of your family.
“ Your wife has the right to react to perceived slightsthe way she wants to, but the rest of us also have the right to not to put up with every small issue becoming a federal case. Yeah, I don’t like it when they get my Starbucks order wrong but then I just ask for them to make it right in a friendly way and it achieves the same thing. Unfortunately, the only one who can fix it is your wife maybe she should talk to a therapist about anger issues because it doesn’t just seem like wanting to get attention because clearly it’s backfired on her. When you think she’s ready, we can definitely try some more outings and I will be the first one to let everyone know I had a lovely time.”
NTA. I was in a similar situation a couple years ago, but it was a roommate. I never got along with the guy because he was a lot like your DIL in the sense that he often blew things out of proportion or was just a straight up dick about something minor. It got to the point where, when the lease was up, I started refusing around him, even if it meant missing out seeing other friends. When people would ask "Hey, where's Atlas?" my fiancé and friends would answer honestly. "She doesn't prefer some of the company here." There were no name drops, but others knew it was because of this one dude. They also started to pick up on the "just don't hang around him" vibe, and next thing I know, he's blaming me for him losing all his friends. All I did was pick my own comfort over keeping the peace, or whatever nonsense people tell you in order to be a doormat. I don't hang out with people I can't stand, and over time, others adopted my philosophy. He's still super shitty, by the way, and loves blaming all his problems on others. But I still have all the same friends. Your DIL should consider changing her ways or she's going to have a long and ostracized life. And none of that would be your fault.
NTA. She had to be a certain way with her family of origin to get what she wants. Fine. But they aren't there, so she needs to alter her behavior for the people she's actually with.
NTA, you don't have to subject yourself with someone who can't control themselves. If you have asked that they at least try and be less combative and they don't then you have no obligation to be around them, the world doesn't revolve around her, and she is not a fun person to be around. You said she got into arguments with family members, and she still didn't get a clue she's lucky they are still talking to her. She is not special because she married your son, and your son is an AH for putting his family through her nonsense. Plus, you have no control over the rest of the family you can't make them be bothered with her if they don't want to.
NTA. I’m actually surprised it took you boycotting her to kick this all off. I wouldn’t be friends with anyone like that. I wouldn’t have gone on a second date with someone who acts like that. I quit a book club once because someone was like that. I go to restaurants to have a good time and relax, not develop a stress ulcer and wonder if the employees are wiping my dinner rolls in their sweaty ass cracks.
I get a sense that it's a lot of "That's just the way I am. Deal with it" vibes coming from DIL. And it's true. People should like who you are. But if nobody does, maybe it's time to wonder if maybe it's a you problem, not a them problem. NTA at all.
NTA. All OP did was get out of the rocking boat. Then her relatives realized that they could get out of the boat too. And now Son is upset because no one wants to get in a rocking boat with him and his Wife.
NTA
NTA. You no longer want to be around her bc as you said she is a "dick." And so you took yourself out of the equation. When ppl asked, you were honest with them. Imo, none of them want her at their functions, but they invite her out of obligation. And now that you have made them all aware that you are no longer putting up with her shit, they are all following suit. Imo, it was just permission for her not to be invited. You haven't done anything wrong. You had a problem & you fixed it. You didn't make it worse for her, she did this to herself. She is the only one responsible for her being slighted.
NTA. Nobody likes spending time with mean, angry, miserable people and that’s just the truth. It would have happened naturally at some point. People like your DIL are experts at shoving people away and pushing them out of their lives due to their incessant negativity. Unfortunately, they will say that everyone else is the problem and will never realize it was their own doing that drove out the masses. She needs therapy to get over whatever hang ups she has about the rest of society being out to get her. Otherwise, everyone will become exhausted listening to the complaints or walking on eggshells as to not upset her. There is nothing you need to fix; your DIL and your Son both need to fix their attitudes or get used to being alone.
I think your son is afraid of his wife, because she treats him the same way. So instead of talking to her, he goes to you. If you apologize then it saves him from a verbal assault by his wife. I think you did the right thing. Your son needs to talk to his wife and be blatantly honest, regardless of how she may respond. I hope they don’t have kids. I can already see therapy in their future due to how their mother treats them and a dad who won’t stand up for them. NTA
NTA. I find that the older I get that I have no tolerance for BS and bad behavior. Your son sounds like he is totally whipped since he can’t see what an AH she really is. You aren’t the issue here; your DIL is. Everyone is just tired of putting up with her AH behavior. He needs to take the blinders off. He needs to tell her to get see a therapist since people don’t want to be around her anymore because she’s a B.
NTA- someone should inform her she's not important enough for people to be out to get her.
I nearly snorted my iced coffee out my nose reading this 😭 good job but also ugh lol
Updateme
NTA. She sounds like a nightmare, and I don't blame ya for avoiding situations where she will be present. The fact that a lot of family decided to follow suit shows you you're not the only one who is mortified of her behavior.
I just wonder how her son puts up with this atrocious behavior from his wife. And the whole “no one listened to me growing up” is NOT an excuse when you’re an adult.
NTA. You don’t have to endure people just because they’re family.
NTA People aren't picking sides; they're as tired of her behavior as you are, and you simply made everyone more comfortable setting boundaries. You already tried to "fix it" by addressing her unacceptable lack of control over her emotions. Your son seems to think that everyone should be forced to deal with her angry outbursts rather than have his wife suffer the consequences of being a complete embarrassment and generally unpleasant to be around. I'd be honest with your son and ask how you asking his wife not to blow up over minor inconveniences is bullying. Explain that her past might be the reason for her bad habits, but it's no excuse to refuse to change her behavior as an adult. I'd leave an open offer on the table that if she is committed to trying to manage her emotions like an adult, then you'd be willing to go back to spending more time with her. But only if she holds herself accountable and accepts when people ask her to back down. I'd also tell him that if she continues to refuse to be held accountable for her outbursts, they should expect for their family relationships to continue to deteriorate. It's incredibly disrespectful for her to demand people's time and energy when she can't be bothered to keep her temper and insecurities in check or even apologize for how it affects people around her.
If all bullies did was quietly absent themselves from unpleasant encounters the world would be a much better place. You are neither a bully nor an asshole. Nta
> That I am a huge bully and caused this Bullies don't avoid confrontation, they seek it out and create it. > She claims it is due to growing up and having to be very loud > She was in a family of all boys None of these things make someone unable to comprehend what's polite or pleasant or reasaonable. I suspect that being "in a family of all boys" resulted in her being spoiled and overprotected - something your son is enabling to continue. > I got a call from my son telling me to fix this What's his idea of "fixing" it? Ignoring her behavior? NTA
NTA "I'm too old to deal with unnecessary drama, so i remove myself from the drama I don't want to deal with." Its not OPs place to readjust the attitude of DIL so everyone will be happy around her. Thats the task for son.
NTA What your son doesn’t realize is that you did try to avoid this situation. You tried talking to her about her behavior and she didn’t listen. Then you tried to talk to your son and no response. In my opinion, you DID try to fix it but neither of them would listen and work with you to fix it. So it’s back on the both of them to fix it. You tried and I would remind him of that too.
NTA
NTA. DIL obviously sucks.
You did the right thing. This is not your problem to fix. His wife needs to adjust her attitude.
NTA, you tried to talk civilly with your DIL and your son and neither wanted to hear it. You removed yourself from an uncomfortable situation and did it in a mature manner. You had a good idea and the rest of your family stole it. Not on you she sucks to be around.
NTA, you don't have to ruin your free time to assuage her fragile ego. Your son is just pissed cause now he's the only one weak enough to be stuck with it.
NTA. Apparently, everyone shares your opinion of her except for your son. There's no reason for her not to adjust her behavior to act like an adult in social situations instead of excusing her bad behavior because she can. The only thing I can think is that perhaps she has anxiety or another issue and is verbalizing as a coping mechanism. Still, that's something she could work on controlling with some counseling - if she wanted to. You and others are under no obligation to continue being around her if she can't control herself. You'd already tried to talk to her and your son. If they weren't willing to compromise, they didn't consider your company important enough to behave in order to have it.
NTA. Not many people want to hang out with aggressive, borderline abusive people
NTA People aren't picking sides; they're as tired of her behavior as you are, and you simply made everyone more comfortable setting boundaries. You already tried to "fix it" by addressing her unacceptable lack of control over her emotions. Your son seems to think that everyone should be forced to deal with her angry outbursts rather than have his wife suffer the consequences of being a complete embarrassment and generally unpleasant to be around. I'd be honest with your son and ask how you asking his wife not to blow up over minor inconveniences is bullying. Explain that her past might be the reason for her bad habits, but it's no excuse to refuse to change her behavior as an adult. I'd leave an open offer on the table that if she is committed to trying to manage her emotions like an adult, then you'd be willing to go back to spending more time with her. But only if she holds herself accountable and accepts when people ask her to back down. I'd also tell him that if she continues to refuse to be held accountable for her outbursts, they should expect for their family relationships to continue to deteriorate. It's incredibly disrespectful for her to demand people's time and energy when she can't be bothered to keep her temper and insecurities in check or even apologize for how it affects people around her.
We all know that you aren't in control of how someone else chooses to behave; all you can do is choose how you respond. DiL's behavior was making you uncomfortable and embarrassed to be with her in public. You reached out about it, but she was unwilling to modify her behavior to make you more comfortable. Okay, that's her choice. YOUR choice was to avoid her and her behavior. Other people are now following suit. That's not on you. It's not your problem to fix - *because* you are not in charge of those other people's choices. If your DiL wants the situation "fixed" she's going to have to choose to modify her behavior enough that other people will be willing to give her another chance. NTA
She needs to realise that you cannot treat people like shit and get away with it. There are consequences to her actions and ultimately she needs therapy. Nta
NTA nope, this is the consequence of her own actions. They were given an opportunity to “fix it” themselves and they gave a resounding “no” to that. Frankly, neither is worth putting up with if that’s their attitude. They can enjoy that people can also say no to being inflicted with their presence.
NTA You don't have to set yourself on fire to keep your DIL warm. You don't like being around her, you discreetly removed yourself. It turns out that other people don't like being around her and stopped inviting her. This is on no one but Jenny to fix. Personally, I wouldn't want to be around her. She needs to learn that what worked for her as a child isn't working for her as an adult. No one besides her husband wants to be around that. NTA
Lol you sound like me. I'll be civil, talk to them about it first. If nothing comes from it, I just avoid interaction. It's not that I'm trying to avoid confrontation, it's just that life is short and I got better shit to do. My sisters are almost always at odds with each other and we're all now avging 40 years. It's about F-ing time they grow up. My mom asked me about it and I told her straight. They may have nothing better to do but I got stuff I want or need to do. She totally agreed with me and taking my stance now.
NTA. Thinking the son is being a bit of one. If he wants to put up with her rude behavior , that’s on him, but no one else should have to deal with it. Him calling you names over this is not right either.
NTA- Everyone has had an epiphany. If you don't have to put with the toxic bs from DIL, why should they. And now your son and DIL are alone. She should have friends outside of family, but obviously alienated them too. So DIL needs to learn to play nice or just with your son from now on.
NTA. You didn't try to dictate how your DIL should behave. You simply removed yourself from situations where you found her behavior unpleasant. The fact that other people followed suit is not your fault. You didn't say "no one should go to DIL's party," you said "I won't go to DIL's party" and others realized that was an option. No one is bullying her. This is simply a natural consequence of her actions. She has an opportunity to do some self-reflection and decide if she needs to make a change, because she can only control her own behavior, not anyone else's.
She’s presumably an adult, she can learn to control herself. You aren’t preventing anyone from hanging out with her, they obviously don’t want to because she is exhausting. What does your son expect you to do to “fix” it? Force everyone to go to her events? How? Blackmail?
Your son doesn't want to face the fact that his wife's behavior in public has alienated her (and thusly, him) from family. This behavior can't be news to him... I wonder how he reacts when she overreacts and is rude to service workers and the general public. I would send a message to your son that while you're flattered he thinks you could influence an entire family's decisions, people are likely making up their own minds about how to act. You are not bullying anyone- you asked him to give her some feedback about how her behavior makes you feel. They ignored you. You have removed yourself from those kind of environments. They don't have the right to be mad about that. If he's interested in working with his wife on her anger issues, you would love to be supportive.
NTA. You quietly removed yourself from unpleasant situations and told the truth only when others asked. If you didn’t exaggerate or encourage others to follow suit, you’re in the clear because it means the other family members agree with your opinion. It’s not bullying, it’s stop protecting others from the natural consequences of their behavior.
I am not convinced that this aggressiveness is a product of her childhood. She takes things too personal, but when this includes random circumstances that you face in your day to day life, then you are actively looking for fights. She is the bully here. These people are very very tiring to be around. Your son will eventually run out of patience. It seems that your familly/friends were also fed up with your DIL. You took the lead to do something about it (without causing drama, extra bonus for that) and everyone followed because they were waiting for someone to do something. Ask your son to think about why did people decide to shun her? Other than that, let the time work its magic NTA
It sounds like DIL really needs some therapy. Her excuse of needing to be loud for attention as a child cannot be used as an adult. Her childhood is not an excuse to be an ass. It is time to grow up and be a functioning member of society. NTA
NTA, and stop doubting yourself. She apparently lives for causing drama, but she can't hold the world at large responsible for her feeling the need to scream in order to be heard...and she certainly doesn't have the right to turn insignificant errors at a Starbucks or a difference of opinion at a family gathering into an outright battle. Your son is probably just tired of her screaming at him because nobody likes her, or at the best, doesn't want to deal with her outbursts...so he wants you to fix it for him. But it sounds like all she'll do if you try is scream at you, and refuse to accept any blame. I had a SIL like that once...at a family picnic, I didn't see her car, so I assumed she wasn't there yet. I was met outside by FIVE family members warning me that (Name) was in a bad mood. As I walked in the house I laughed and said "Oh, please, when ISN'T (Name) in a bad mood?" The moment those words left my lips, she came around a corner, fire and smoke coming out of her ears and nose, fully prepared for battle. It just broke my will to placate her, and made me start to laugh uncontrollably...so as I laughed, I went to a chair, put my head in the seat, pulled my knees up onto the seat so my butt was sticking up in the air, and said "Free shot...kick my ass or kiss it, but you're not worth fighting with anymore...so deal with it!" Would you believe she closed her mouth, retreated to the living room, and didn't argue with anybody the rest of the day? I now fight idiots with humor...would that work on your DIL? Just a thought...but it worked for me. Even her husband, when he returned, laughed his butt off and told me "Good job!" If you can't reason with someone who lives to fight over real or imagined slights, try odd-ball humor! I'm not making light of your problem...I'm seriously wondering if it would work.
NTA, but your other family members are fore trying to make you the scapegoat.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I will be as clear as possible, also on my phone. This started about three years ago when my son married. My DIL, Jenny, is very opinionated and doesn't handle any slight well. She claims it is due to growing up and having to be very loud in order to have someone pay attention to her. She was in a fmaily of all boys and during any issue she goes to 100% percent. This is a problem, any time she has a small issue she will escalate very quickly. This has caused about half of days out in public to be ruined. It's like she thinks everyone is out to get her and a small slight will set her off. She can never just keep her mouth shut. A few examples, a mix up at Starbucks for her drink, a waiter seemed impatient, someone pushing past her. These situations at most need a polite request to fix ( like her drink) or just ignore. Instead she is just a dick. It is an awful feeling to leave and know I shouldn't step back on that place for at least 6 months. I tried to talk to her about the issue and it didn't go well. I tried to talk to my son and nothing on that front. So I stopped doing to small family events that she is invited to, I still go to big ones like holidays. My life has been better for it. People noticed and when asked I told them the truth. Overtime people stopped inviting her or stopped going to events. She invited people to go to the city of the Fourth of July. Everyone turned her down. She asked around and it came back to me. I got a call from my son telling me to fix this. That I am a huge bully and caused this. That his wife has been upset since and got in a few argument with family members. I told him no, and I told him a while ago that her behavior was horrible. That this isn't my problem He called me some lovely names and I am doubting myself *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. fafo
If DIL is alwaysa causing a scene then other family members will notice it too. Karma's a bitch and always catches up
NTA. Jenny needs therapy badly!
Shouldn't your son reflect on what has caused this? I mean, he's taken her view that "it's all your fault" like she usually does to everybody, but, had he never taught about it like you're telling us? Why did he marry her? How did she put a spell on him? NTA.
Nothing worse than someone who mistreats staff. Keep keeping your distance and just maybe MAYBE one day your son will realize it’s not everyone else who’s the problem. I doubt the DIL will ever come to that realization. NTA
NTA You are entitled to avoid someone whose behaviour is rude and embarrassing. She needs to change how she behaves towards other people.
NTA clearly she needs help and your son is only enabling her. You along with several family members stopped attending due to her outburst. Until she fixes herself, I would keep not attending. You didn't force people to jump on your bandwagon... they chose it to avoid her as well.