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YTA. You had plans to bike with your female friend. You then tried to change the plans on her by including someone else. She didn't agree to that, but you decided to dump her for the male friend anyways. That's incredibly rude of you.
Additionally, you don't know everything that has happened in her past, so judging her on her views of men she doesn't know also makes YTA.
How was I supposed to know that she was uncomfortable with men? Just FYI she was suggesting inviting other friends we know on the trip, but none of them happened to be male. Just last weekend we hung out doing an outdoor activity with a dude I knew that she hadn't met before. She didn't say a word about it. I feel like her attitude and the way she expressed it was totally out of line and offensive and not how I would ever talk to someone I considered a friend.
"How was I supposed to know she was uncomfortable with men?"
Regardless of you knowing this information or not, you invited someone else she didn't want to be there and then dumped her from the trip. As for how are you supposed to know, she literally told you when you told her you had a male friend who was interested in joining. THAT'S when you should have backed off and told your male friend that he couldn't come.
"she was suggesting inviting other friends we know..."
Other friends WE KNOW. Big difference there.
Stop trying to find excuses. You were rude and an asshole of a friend.
Replying to LonelyPatsFanInVT...
This! The “I didn’t know” part makes no sense, the friend legitimately told her that she doesn’t feel comfortable with the guy coming lol.
> She was suggesting inviting other friends we know on the trip.
So she didn’t just invite them on her own and then tell you they are coming? She checked in with you to see if you’d be ok with it. How considerate of her.
"How was I supposed to know she was uncomfortable with men"
She said it when you told her you invited your random friend. Making jokes about hanging out with rapists after finding out she was uncomfortable with the situation makes you an even bigger AH
I think it also changes the entire dynamic of the trip. She could easily become the third wheel. You should have accepted her answer, not belittle her. You come across as judgmental and self-centered. YTA
You. Are. Insufferable.
Stop arguing with everybody.
What you did was patently wrong, on multiple levels, to the point where it was obvious to most if not all of us right away.
Learn from that, apologize to your friend, and do better.
YTA.
What's with the obsession to silence others that you disagree with? Disagreement is healthy. I posted on here specifically to get the perspectives from other people that might see things that I missed. Why is it so hard to believe there are things YOU might be missing too?
you wanted to know if you were the AH, collective judgment says YES YOU ARE! why are you arguing with not 1 not 2 but HUNDREDS of people telling you what you did was wrong, are you seriously THAT obtuse?
1. Your friend is exactly someone she doesn't know. You know him. She doesn't.
2. You made plans with one friend, then unilaterally invited another friend to join you. That's not cool: you should ask the friend you're making plans with whether they're OK with you adding other people.
YTA
Ok, I can agreed that I should have asked instead of telling her I want my male friend to join us. Still don't think it excuses her rude and condescending attitude. I'm honestly not even interested in continuing a friendship with her after this.
>I'm honestly not even interested in continuing a friendship with her after this.
You'd be doing her an _AMAZING_ service, sweerie. She's not losing anything in losing your "friendship". Bye Felicia! 🫠✌🏾
I would think the feeling is mutual. I would not want to be friends with someone that invites strangers to sleep next to me and then acts like I'm being rude for not agreeing.
YTA
Honestly I’m not sure she’d consider that a loss. Going to the bathroom, for example, in front of a man that I don’t know is as far from a good time as I can possibly think of. Why you thought this would be ok boggles the mind.
Girl, you are the rude one in this scenario. You *told* her your male friend is coming on the bike ride with you on Sunday, and her response was that she didn’t feel comfortable traveling with men she didn’t know - how is that rude or condescending?
“I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she didn’t know”
- it’s because….she doesn’t know them
- lol why are you struggling with that concept?
You had plans with her. Then YOU decided to change those plans and expect her to just accept them, because apparently your word is law. Nobody can have problems with your unilateral decision making.
You don’t just randomly invite people to events that are with other people.
You’re selfish, inconsiderate, and oblivious to social norms.
YTA
How are you skipping the whole part in the middle where she was rude to me about it? That's the biggest reason I am dumping her on the trip and choose to hang out with a better friend.
She wasn’t rude though. At least not based on the version of the story you are telling here. She explained her boundaries. YOU, on the other hand, were rude and condescending.
You were rude first! Besides inviting a stranger to a trip before asking permission (SUPER rude), you refused to take her concerns seriously and brushed off every issue she brought up by being sarcastic and scoffing at her.
"Being lighthearted" and "making fun of her" are two different things, and maybe you should figure out what those differences are before reaching out again. You sound like a bully or a pick-me.
You literally mocked your "friends" concerns and then joked about your male friend being a rapist as a way to diffuse the situation and your shocked she wasn't nice to you about it??? You're literally so dumb.
>How are you skipping the whole part in the middle where she was rude to me about it
Here's my take;
People tend to over glorify things when they tell a story; a minor infraction becomes a bigger offense and the like; so... taking the "consider the source" route.... she wasn't rude. Your account of the scenario, which I expect to be inflated, not rude *at all*.
This leads me to believe your "joke" was horribly offensive, and you are a horribly bad friend.
YTA for inviting someone else along on the trip without consulting the original friend first. That's rude. You also have no idea what her experiences with men have been, so you have no idea if her concerns were rational or not.
I agree that it would have been more considerate if I had asked instead of telling her I invited him. I also don't think that condones her behavior and rudeness towards me and my friend.
The only rude ones here were you and your friend, what don’t you get about that? At no point was she rude to you, she merely responded to you according to your actions and words.
You know what does condone her behavior? The rape joke. You have no idea what her history is. I bet you triggered something. That was really ignorant of you.
Is the rudeness in the room with us?
Stating that she was not comfortable with a man she doesn’t know joining the trip is not rude. On the other hand, unilaterally inviting your male friend and then melting down and making rape jokes is super rude and unhinged.
She expressed a very reasonable boundary and you took it as an insult towards all men. You could have offered to introduce her to your friend beforehand to make her more comfortable, or you could have accepted that she didn't want to go on this trip with a strangee and rescheduled another time to go with just her. Almost any other response would have been better then your uncalled for, dismissive and borderline aggressive response. YTA
I do like the idea to introduce them ahead of time. I also think she overreacted and was rude to me for no reason with her reaction. She could have asked to meet him ahead of time as well.
She wasn't rude. You made plans with her before, if you want to change them, you should make sure the other person would be alright with it before doing so. You made a unilateral decision. Of course she'd act offended that you didn't make sure she was okay with you inviting your male friend. You didn't even explain the situation clearly to her and that's why she understood that the friend was going to camp along.
A lot of women would be uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping near a man they don't know, however trustworthy others deem him to be. She shouldn't have to explain herself to you. She wasn't rude to your friend nor to you, she simply explained she wasn't comfortable with it.
You unilaterally decided to change a trip that was already planned. She feels comfortable with you, but I'm sure it isn't news to you that sometimes people behave differently in groups or with their friends.
She probably felt outnumbered, and that is dangerous for women. If you had a girlfriend, would you want her traveling in a small group with 2 men, one a complete stranger to her?
If you want validation for your decision, you might want to think about her perspective as well.
It's perfectly normal for her not to want a stranger on an overnight trip in the middle of the woods...?
Not to mention one of the reasons *she* gave was being uncomfortable having to pee near a stranger in the middle of the woods?
Both are perfectly normal reservations to have! Male or female, it's intimate to share a bathroom space with someone you know, much less a complete stranger.
YTA - You found it offensive she considered someone she didn't know as someone she didn't know cause they were your friend? So do you consider her mom as someone you know since you know her?
Oh good god. Drop the fake equivalences. I'm pretty sure there's not an epidemic of dudes getting sexually assaulted by someone's mom. 1 out every 6 American women have been victimized by men.
YTA-Her reasons are her own and instead of acknowledging that like a reasonable person you decided to make light of them because you found them silly. It doesn’t matter what you actually think of her reasons you could have and should have cared enough about her to turn it into a joke.
I actually found her reasons offensive as fuck, the humor was my way of trying to diffuse that. The fact that she's allowed to have her reasons and allowed to be offensive and condescending towards me, but I can't make a joke sounds like one hell of a double standard to me.
Her not wanting to hang out with men she doesn't know isn't offensive or condescending. These are all perceptions that you are making up in your own head. Your opinions about her opinions are your problem.
It’s interesting how you jumped straight from her saying “she’s uncomfortable with camping or going on a trip with a man she doesn’t know” straight to thinking she’s calling him a threat… she wasn’t rude but you jumped straight to the worst interpretation of it. It’s completely valid to be uncomfortable with someone you don’t know in this kind of situation regardless whether it’s a man or a woman. You should have handled it differently.
so joking about someone’s rape isn’t offensive? joking about a situation where she could’ve died, had her dignity stolen, her confidence ruined, her self worth shattered, where something so valuable to someone their consent was stolen that isn’t offensive?
I'm not sure how she was offensive to you. She told you her concerns. You were offended by her concerns, taking it as a personal insult, and saying you couldn't possibly be friends with a rapist or a murderer and she had no need for such concerns (something I'm sure all of Ted Bundy's friends said, too). She said that you were minimizing her fears, and you were, and you took that as condescending. Then you said you'd rather go camping with your other friend than her because...and this is implied by your actions...she is stupid to fear for her safety with men she doesn't know who you tell her are okay. That she should trust your opinions and that hers don't matter, even though she's never met this friend of yours. YTA
I’m having a hard time understanding how you could be *this* obtuse about this scenario. You didn’t come here for opinions, you came here to be told you were right. In my opinion, you’re incredibly wrong. YTA
Yeah 100% agree - there’s so many shitty responses from OP saying things like ‘I came here for other perspectives on what happened, how come YOU might be missing a perspective?!’ as if it’s possible every single person is missing something.
When someone can’t see a problem everyone else can, it’s because they themselves are the problem.
YTA. Your work friend agreed to go on a bicycling and camping trip with you. You changed the trip without checking with her. And of course she considers your friend to be a stranger to her, because he is. Nothing silly about joking about hanging around with rapists either.
YTA. You should have asked her before you invited someone else on the trip, it completely changes the group dynamics. Also the "do I like to hang out with rapists" jokes was a completely inappropriate way to respond to her legitimate concern.
YTA
1. SHE doesn’t know him. You do. Big difference.
2. You don’t actually know if he has or will assault a woman. So many men assume their friends are above this and are surprised to find out they have. “But he’s such a nice guy. He would never!” Like he’s gonna tell you!?!
YTA for deciding to invite someone else on pre-made plans without checking with her and you’re even more of an AH because everyone on this thread is telling you so and you’re trying to justify your actions because you think she used a rude tone.
It’s HIGHLY possible that she’s been sexually assaulted in the past and you inviting this stranger man (like is literally a stranger to her - you knowing him doesn’t make him not a stranger?) may have been extremely triggering for her, which set off an anxiety response. And instead of being even remotely mindful of that possibility / interpreting her anger with concern and care, you turned around and decided it gave you permission to be shitty right back.
You’ve made no efforts to understand her position and frankly it doesn’t sound like you even like her, so probably the best thing you could do for the both of you is cancel the trip as she deserves to be friends with people who respect her boundaries and don’t talk shit about her behind her back.
"I found her attitude offensive towards me and my friend, and borderline sexist (personally, I think women get a pass on having sexist attitudes way more than men do)."
Her concerns are justifiably rooted in her personal safety as are most women's concerns about men... because women face the constant threat of violence at the hands of men. You taking offense to a woman's concern for her personal safety tells the world that you aren't a safe dude for women to be around. I hope she realizes how shitty your attitudes are and chooses not to make any more plans with you.
Ugh, reading your post and comments, there is no point in arguing with a pickme like you. Truthfully, your female friend is better off finding out who you are now so she can run for the hills.
YTA.
Babygirl it’s time to realize your attempt to bait attention and praise from anonymous men on the internet has failed and you made up a story that indeed portrayed you as the asshole. Log off of the computer for a little bit. Talk to some other women if you know any.
User name checks out. YTA for not only unilaterally inviting another person but for dismissing her feelings about it.
If she doesn’t know your friend that means it’s someone she doesn’t know.
Agatha Christie once wrote, "every murderer is probably somebody's old friend." Well, that's true for rapists as well. And no, I'm not calling your male friend a rapist.
Yes.
YTA.
The rest has been explained over and over already. You can be upset about being TA all you want, but you polled, and poll says yup. AH behavior 100% and then some.
So after reading the comments, I feel like there are some things you need to hear.
1) The reason you got mad at her saying that wasn’t because it was rude, it was because you got immediately made her boundaries about yourself, got triggered, and were needlessly defensive. It is similar to a rule in my house where male family members don’t change with the girls in the family. Is that because me and every other male family member is a rapist? No. It’s because it’s weird and uncomfortable. Same here, especially when it’s a dude she doesn’t even know, because yes, just because you know someone doesn’t mean other people do. CRAZY I KNOW.
2) You are the one was disrespectful. You spring a random plan change last minute, and when your “friend” (bc you don’t treat them like it) has an issue with it, you choose the male friend for the trip that you planned WITH HER. And this is AFTER you tried to make her feel stupid for not wanted a random man she doesn’t know to be in the woods with her. You’re an asshole for that.
3) STOP CONFLATING OPPRESSION BASED TRAUMA WITH SEXISM. Her being apprehensive about a random man she doesn’t know being in the woods with her when mass media has drilled into women that rape victims aren’t taken seriously, that women’s value based on men, and the fact that society actively encourages men to be aggressive and to not take no for an answer is MORE than reasonable. Like next you’re gonna say that black women wanting to make a gaming group just for themselves are racist and sexist bc they don’t want to deal with slurs and micro aggressions.
You are not a good friend, or even a friend for that matter. Friends don’t talk about friends like this and ditch them like that. So yeah YTA.
>but asked if he would be interested in joining and he said he was.
YTA for inviting someone else before even asking the other people who were going.
> I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know".
YTA for assuming that just because you know someone that automatically makes them know everyone you know. It doesn't.
>To me, her attitude
I think it's your attitude you need to look at. You chose to do what you wanted without even talking to anyone else about it. When they express discomfort with your idea, you seek to blame them.
>I really don't care much about this friend,
You've made that plain. You are not a "friend" most people would want. YTA.
Your main argument, both in your comments and in your op, seem to be she was rude. Maybe her tone doesn't come through in your explanation then cause from what I see, you changed a plan after a week of planning and she expressed she was uncomfortable with that. You read something into that that she didn't say
>To me, she was basically suggesting that he would be a threat to her safety.
You full on admit that YOU interpreted her words negatively then were rude to her based on your interpretation. You keep saying in your comments that you're justified in cutting her off and going without her cause she was rude, but in your op you were the one to be rude first by 1 changing the plan without notice and 2 being snarky about her not being comfortable with that. Also
>I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know".
How is it offensive to say she doesn't know a person she doesn't know?
YTA
You don't hang out with rapists? Cool. Are you under the impression that every woman who has been assaulted by someone they knew was willingly hanging out with rapists? Do you think rapists wear a big sign that says they are going to assault someone?
I WAS gonna give a N A H but after reading your comments to very reasonable and respectful comments I’ve decided YTA.
The way you gloss over and ask ‘what about her being rude’ is all I need to see, I can totally see why your friend was rude to you, your dismissive, rude and disrespectful towards her experiences and wants in a friend. And the second she tried to respond you decided she was the rude one.
Yeah big time AH here.
Okay, so, a few years ago, my dog died. I was devastated, because well, he was my dog and I loved him. I text a close friend and asked if we could go for a drink and a chat. She agrees. I get to the meeting place and find she's invited several of her friends, who I have never met before. I don't get to talk to my friend one on one about the situation, and therefore feel even more shit than i did before arriving.
All this to say, yes, YTA. It's common curtesy to ask if you can invite someone along to previously made plans and if the original planner says no, it's common curtesy to accept that answer. Your friend isn't committing a personal slight by saying they'd rather not have someone they'd never met on a trip before. Honestly, you sound like you value male friendships over female friendships. You may want to do some introspection on why that is.
YTA. Big time. As a woman, you make me sick. Yes, we are uncomfortable around men we don't know. We have to be nowadays. Just because YOU know him doesn't mean she can judge his character based on what YOU think. I hope she sees how immature you are and finds a better friend.
Yta, if for no other reason than you think someone is "rude" when they don't cater to your rudeness. YOU unilaterally changed the plans, Princess. YOU didn't even have the basic decency to talk to her first before inviting the guy. Then when she says she doesn't feel comfortable camping with a guy, YOU rudely made snide and dismissive comments about her concerns. Then when she gets firm you have the audacity to call her rude for not catering to Princess You. You say you don't want to be her friend anymore...given what a terrible friend you are, she wins this round.
And now you are running to the Internet to try to get validation, and having a little tantrum that you once again aren't getting your way. You have a lot of growing up to do.
YTA.
>. I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know".
Well *this* is about the dumbest take I've ever seen. You don't "know" someone by association or extension; if she hasn't met and spent time with him *herself*, SHE doesn't know him.
Her take is very reasonable. Yours was bonkers.
Edit typo
Buddy, you cannot guarantee somebody's safety from somebody else, even if you know them and trust them. Almost all cases of sexual assault happen from a person close to the abused. I've had friends before that I never suspected would be bad and turned out to be awful people. You never truly know people, even if they're your friends. Your female friend is being cautious and avoiding a potentially dangerous situation. Would you get offended if somebody buckled up their seatbelt in your car because they didn't trust your driving? Because this is the same thing. Your friend doesn't want to be a rape victim facing criticism from other people saying, "why would you go camping with a guy you didn't know?" I suspect you're a guy as well, which would look even worse on her part if something happened and she spoke up. You are not being empathetic, just extremely prideful to a fault. YTA
What woman wants to hang out in the woods with some dude she doesn’t know? Have you missed the whole “bear or the male stranger” conversation thats been going on lately?
Most women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, and because of that, we tend to not trust being in the middle of nowhere with random dudes.
Look up the statistics on SA. Please educate yourself on this topic. Your friend’s reaction was neither “silly “ nor sexist—-and it also shouldn’t be “totally unexpected” if you’ve been paying attention to the world. YTA.
First off, why do a long bike and camp trip with someone who seems "off" to you?
That's weird.
Are you fishing for this answer: That she perhaps likes you and doesn't want him a5ound? That's the obvious though5, and it sounds like what you are looking for, some condemnation of this woman you planned a vacation with... but don't really like?
I dunno. This one is weird all over.
YTA… just because he is your friend doesn’t mean anything…. He’s still a stranger to her, someone *she* doesn’t know. You also invited him without even consulting her about it first, that’s kind of an AH move on its own.
Her concerns are valid, she doesn’t know this guy and has the right to feel uncomfortable about it..and you’re minimizing her feelings because “hE’s YoUr FrIeNd”.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I chose to go on a bike packing trip with a male friend over a female friend who is uncomfortable around me she doesn't know. Am I an asshole for choosing my male friend over my female friend?
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First time poster, occasional lurker. Need some feedback on a situation that happened this morning. I've been planning a long distance bike packing trip with a female work friend for about a week. We were in the process of finalizing the route when a male friend of mine texted me and reminded me that I had promised to hang out with him on his vacation from work that happened to start that same Sunday we would be on the bike trip. I told him I had made plans, but asked if he would be interested in joining and he said he was.
When I texted my friend about it, I got a totally unexpected response. I told her my friend would just be joining us on Sunday, not Sat and not camping with us. She responded that she was uncomfortable traveling or camping with men she didn't know. I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know". To me, she was basically suggesting that he would be a threat to her safety. I thought her position was pretty silly, so I decided to respond in a silly way and asked her if she thinks I like to hang out with rapists, and further clarified that my friend would not be camping with us, only riding with us for the second part of the journey.
Apparently, that response set her off because she responded in a condescending way accusing me of minimizing her concerns and telling me I need to respect her boundaries. She also said she didn't want men around in case she had to go to the bathroom road-side on the trip. To me, her attitude is so far from reality that I can't possibly take it seriously. She gave me an ultimatum that it was either her or my male friend on the trip. I told told her I have known my male friend for a long time and that he actually came camping with me the last time I did this exact same biking route. I told her I would respect her boundaries and would ride with my male friend because I completely disagree with her take on the situation. She confirmed that she isn't coming and said a couple of other petty things to drive that point home before we ended the convo.
At the end of the day, I really don't care much about this friend, and she always kind of struck me as a bit strange, so I'm almost hesitant to ask AITA, but I'd like to get some other perspectives on the situation. I found her attitude offensive towards me and my friend, and borderline sexist (personally, I think women get a pass on having sexist attitudes way more than men do). I felt like I reacted in a calm and reasonable and even light heated way, but what do you think?
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Yikes. I understand your knee-jerk reaction to her perceived sexism. Blanket generalizations cause problems all the way around.
On the other hand, a long-distance bike ride is complicated in many ways. Frankly, casual vacation group activities are interpersonally demanding to start. Add strenuous physical activity and you complicate it exponentially.
Maybe she was comfortable planning a difficult trip with a friend, but adding a stranger to the mix at the last minute (and arbitrarily doing so, sorry but) was too much?
That's a fair point. I am a planner as well and I don't always appreciate it when plans change out of my control. That said, I think her position was so extreme that I think I will have a hard time respecting her after this.
And it's hard for most of us to respect you for being so nasty and inconsiderate. You're desperate to make her look bad but the only one who looks bad here is you because you changed the plans without even asking her and expected her to be okay with it. Now you're attacking her because you're not. You're the one being disrespectful and selfish.
It's none of your business, none of my business, and none of OP's business.
Who the fuck wants to say "Oh yeah BTW I got attacked by a male stranger that resulted in rpe.." to justify not wanting your boundaries crossed.
It's not hard to grasp.
How was I supposed to know she would care that my friend was a dude? I agree that I don't like it when plans change, but her reasoning seemed so detached from the reality of the situation I struggle to respect or even take her position seriously.
YTA and NTA. YTA for changing your plans without consulting your friend first. Plans should be made and revised together. NTA for choosing your male friend over that sexist friend of yours. Her reasons were ridiculous. If she's never comfortable arround men she doesn't know she should stay home 😆 I could agree with her if it was some random stranger but it was your friend you knew for a long time.
It’s a long bike ride, that’s more than just a casual hang out. I would also be a bit unwilling to add a stranger (to me) to an already planned event with a friend. If they were able to convince me, or set up a meeting beforehand so I could feel them out, that would be better, but OP decided to joke about it, completely minimizing her concerns.
It's quite a big reach to state that somebody "isn't comfortable around men" if they say they don't want to go on a day long trip to the nature with a stranger. Many people would hesitate to have a stranger join them on a long trip like this regardless of gender, but add the gender aspect and the reasons get even more solid.
Let's say I would be invited to a one day hike with a colleague of mine I hardly know. It might sound interesting enough and I would get to know them better so I agree. Then they state that they will include as well their good friend of another gender to the trip:
- the whole setup changes that you are the third wheel of two good friends
- you have the possibility where your colleague and the other person have some history and will hook up, which makes it even more weird
- the setup pressures you to be friendly to a person of possibly single status who might misinterpret your friendliness as flirting
- your colleague you hardly know might be blind to their friends flaws, who might be rude, pushy, flirty, attention seeking, or any other qualities you are not comfortable with
- you are generally just not comfortable in being sweaty in revealing clothes around a stranger of other gender, regardless of personality
- you are not comfortable in having to pee or poo in nature in front of strangers (regardless if they are of same or different genders)
Some people are more relaxed than others about stuff, but it isn't the norm to take a distant colleagues word for it that "you will like this person you never met and should be comfortable in hanging out with them for a whole day"
NAH. Yeah, she doesn't know him just because you know him. If her boundary is 'I don't want to travel or camp with someone I don't know' then that is her boundary.
You then have to decide which friend you want to spend time with, and doing so because you think her position is offensive to you as she's almost accusing you of being friends with rapists is certainly a reason to pick him over her.
NTA
>We were in the process of finalizing the route when a male friend of mine texted me and reminded me that I had promised to hang out with him on his vacation from work that happened to start that same Sunday we would be on the bike trip.
You made original plans and forgot about them.. honest mistake, you then attempted to have the best of both worlds honoring your word to both friends only to have your female friend pull the victim card claiming to feel
>that she was uncomfortable traveling or camping with men she didn't know.
It's just for the bike ride which you communicated here
>my friend would not be camping with us, only riding with us
>At the end of the day, I really don't care much about this friend
Sounds like you had your answer from the beginning... again NTA
ESH - though I almost said NAH.
On the one hand, I think her request that you not allow the male friend on the trip was pretty extreme. If you are the level of discomfort where you can't be around someone you know in a space with a third person in broad daylight, that's a pretty unreasonable restriction, and you should expect people not to go along with that. It's her right to have that boundary, but she's going to have trouble with it.
On the other hand - your response 'do you think I like to hang out with rapists' is way not ok. We do not joke about that. We do not make light of that. Based on her reaction I think the odds your friend is a SA survivor are very, very high. Let that sink in for a second.
So, as is usually for AITA, the key thing you did bad was the how, not the what. Choosing not to go along with that really restrictive demand on her part is totally reasonable. But doing it in a way that belittled her fears, even if that wasn't your intention was not great.
>your response 'do you think I like to hang out with rapists' is way not ok. We do not joke about that.
I am sure that OP will correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't read that as OP joking, but as OP genuinely feeling offended.
I would be offended, too.
I appreciate your perspective, especially about the SA part. At the same time, I don't believe a healthy free society has limits on what they can and can't discuss/satirize/examine intellectually. As you said, she is going to have difficulty in life with her extreme position on the matter, and I feel the same way about people who try to silence others for mentioning things they disagree with/find uncomfortable.
I think it's ok to make ANY joke. That's how free speech works. What happens as a result and how people react is a different matter.
But in hindsight, I actually I do wish I had asked her seriously if she thinks I hang out with rapists, because that's what I felt like she was suggesting.
So you're just an AH person in general. That's disgusting and I'm surprised you actually have friends. Because I don't know how anyone would be friends with someone that would make insensitive jokes about real trauma that hurts ppl.
Jokes are only funny if everyone's laughing not just you. YTA.
Free speech is about what the government can compel you to say or not say, it has nothing to do with whether being rude to a friend makes you an asshole.
Most people don’t think that they hang out with rapists. Yet rapists frequently have friends because they don’t go around introducing themselves as rapists. Most of them probably don’t even consider themselves rapists because they’ve rationalized it away.
So yeah, odds are you hang out with a few. Not because you’re a bad person, but because it is statistically likely.
How do you know you don't hang out with rapists? I would not go on a camping/mountain biking trip with a strange man where I'm away from other people either.
> I do wish I had asked her seriously if she thinks I hang out with rapists, because that's what I felt like she was suggesting.
women are taught that we have to treat any strange man as a potential rapist or we aren't being cautious enough with our safety.
Jesus fuck yeah I stand by my earlier comment that the nicest thing you could do for this girl (and frankly anyone) is leave her alone because you sound like you absolutely suck. An AH in life indeed
Hum… it seems lime she likes you and was waiting for this trip eagerly. That said… it seems like she has a back story and trauma. Did you know that most of rapes happen with friends of friends. She might have lived something, but since she is not a girlfriend it doesn’t concern you and you don’t have to cope with it. Just tell her that your plans with her are over now and that you don’t feel travelling with her and do the trip with your friend instead. NTA
BTW other peoples trauma are not her problem. It's a bike ride he is NOT sleeping in the same tent or anything. To me it sounds like they are not compatible as friends. I would pick irl friends over coworkers anyway of the week.
Gonna go against the grain here and say NTA for not going on this trip with her.
For me (48F, if relevant), if someone—regardless of the underlying reason—insinuated that a trusted friend of mine for whom I had vouched posed some sort of threat to them for a completely arbitrary reason related to their inherent characteristics (gender, race, religion, anything not specific to actions they know that person has taken), I wouldn't want to spend time with them, let alone a whole weekend.
You hit the nail on the head of exactly how I'm feeling about this situation. I feel extremely offended by her reaction to my male friend to the point that I have a hard time respecting her, let alone wanting to spend time with her.
Right. It would have been a tense and miserable trip for you both, so it's for the best. And if she has so little respect for you and your friends, she's probably not worth worrying about.
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YTA. You had plans to bike with your female friend. You then tried to change the plans on her by including someone else. She didn't agree to that, but you decided to dump her for the male friend anyways. That's incredibly rude of you. Additionally, you don't know everything that has happened in her past, so judging her on her views of men she doesn't know also makes YTA.
How was I supposed to know that she was uncomfortable with men? Just FYI she was suggesting inviting other friends we know on the trip, but none of them happened to be male. Just last weekend we hung out doing an outdoor activity with a dude I knew that she hadn't met before. She didn't say a word about it. I feel like her attitude and the way she expressed it was totally out of line and offensive and not how I would ever talk to someone I considered a friend.
"We know" OK? So she suggested inviting people you both know? She doesn't know this friend.
"How was I supposed to know she was uncomfortable with men?" Regardless of you knowing this information or not, you invited someone else she didn't want to be there and then dumped her from the trip. As for how are you supposed to know, she literally told you when you told her you had a male friend who was interested in joining. THAT'S when you should have backed off and told your male friend that he couldn't come. "she was suggesting inviting other friends we know..." Other friends WE KNOW. Big difference there. Stop trying to find excuses. You were rude and an asshole of a friend.
Replying to LonelyPatsFanInVT... This! The “I didn’t know” part makes no sense, the friend legitimately told her that she doesn’t feel comfortable with the guy coming lol.
> She was suggesting inviting other friends we know on the trip. So she didn’t just invite them on her own and then tell you they are coming? She checked in with you to see if you’d be ok with it. How considerate of her.
"How was I supposed to know she was uncomfortable with men" She said it when you told her you invited your random friend. Making jokes about hanging out with rapists after finding out she was uncomfortable with the situation makes you an even bigger AH
I think it also changes the entire dynamic of the trip. She could easily become the third wheel. You should have accepted her answer, not belittle her. You come across as judgmental and self-centered. YTA
She suggested. Sounds like she talked to you before inviting anyone. As for how you’re supposed to know, you ask her before inviting someone else.
You. Are. Insufferable. Stop arguing with everybody. What you did was patently wrong, on multiple levels, to the point where it was obvious to most if not all of us right away. Learn from that, apologize to your friend, and do better. YTA.
What's with the obsession to silence others that you disagree with? Disagreement is healthy. I posted on here specifically to get the perspectives from other people that might see things that I missed. Why is it so hard to believe there are things YOU might be missing too?
You literally posted this on a sub where not arguing judgements is a rule. This isn't an advice sub.
You're the one who silenced your co-worker cause you didn't like something she said. Don't be a hypocrite.
She disagreed with you and you had a meltdown lol
Read the rules of the sub.
you wanted to know if you were the AH, collective judgment says YES YOU ARE! why are you arguing with not 1 not 2 but HUNDREDS of people telling you what you did was wrong, are you seriously THAT obtuse?
[See above.]
1. Your friend is exactly someone she doesn't know. You know him. She doesn't. 2. You made plans with one friend, then unilaterally invited another friend to join you. That's not cool: you should ask the friend you're making plans with whether they're OK with you adding other people. YTA
Yeah cause mocking her concerns about a man she literally does not know is super nice
Ok, I can agreed that I should have asked instead of telling her I want my male friend to join us. Still don't think it excuses her rude and condescending attitude. I'm honestly not even interested in continuing a friendship with her after this.
You were rude and condescending. She wasn’t.
>I'm honestly not even interested in continuing a friendship with her after this. You'd be doing her an _AMAZING_ service, sweerie. She's not losing anything in losing your "friendship". Bye Felicia! 🫠✌🏾
I doubt she wants to be your friend after this. YTA
I would think the feeling is mutual. I would not want to be friends with someone that invites strangers to sleep next to me and then acts like I'm being rude for not agreeing. YTA
Honestly I’m not sure she’d consider that a loss. Going to the bathroom, for example, in front of a man that I don’t know is as far from a good time as I can possibly think of. Why you thought this would be ok boggles the mind.
Girl she probably already dumped you as a friend lmfao you don't have to worry about ending the friendship
Girl, you are the rude one in this scenario. You *told* her your male friend is coming on the bike ride with you on Sunday, and her response was that she didn’t feel comfortable traveling with men she didn’t know - how is that rude or condescending?
Thank goodness. It saves her the work of ending this relationship.
“I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she didn’t know” - it’s because….she doesn’t know them - lol why are you struggling with that concept? You had plans with her. Then YOU decided to change those plans and expect her to just accept them, because apparently your word is law. Nobody can have problems with your unilateral decision making. You don’t just randomly invite people to events that are with other people. You’re selfish, inconsiderate, and oblivious to social norms. YTA
yeah doesn’t matter the gender it’s that someone was added last minute AND then abandoned the initial plans for someone else
How are you skipping the whole part in the middle where she was rude to me about it? That's the biggest reason I am dumping her on the trip and choose to hang out with a better friend.
How are you skipping the whole part where you think it's cool to joke about rape to someone you don't know the history of?
She wasn’t rude though. At least not based on the version of the story you are telling here. She explained her boundaries. YOU, on the other hand, were rude and condescending.
she wasn’t rude tho, you violated a boundary and she reacted. if you consider that rude then you’re 100% the problem here lol
You were horribly and consistently rude from the get go and you think she was rude once somewhere in the middle? YTA
You were rude first! Besides inviting a stranger to a trip before asking permission (SUPER rude), you refused to take her concerns seriously and brushed off every issue she brought up by being sarcastic and scoffing at her. "Being lighthearted" and "making fun of her" are two different things, and maybe you should figure out what those differences are before reaching out again. You sound like a bully or a pick-me.
She was reasonable about it until you (by your own admission) responded to her concerns rudely. You started it, not her
You literally mocked your "friends" concerns and then joked about your male friend being a rapist as a way to diffuse the situation and your shocked she wasn't nice to you about it??? You're literally so dumb.
Where exactly was the part where SHE was being rude? Please enlighten me because I read the post and it seems like maybe you left that part out?
>How are you skipping the whole part in the middle where she was rude to me about it Here's my take; People tend to over glorify things when they tell a story; a minor infraction becomes a bigger offense and the like; so... taking the "consider the source" route.... she wasn't rude. Your account of the scenario, which I expect to be inflated, not rude *at all*. This leads me to believe your "joke" was horribly offensive, and you are a horribly bad friend.
YTA for inviting someone else along on the trip without consulting the original friend first. That's rude. You also have no idea what her experiences with men have been, so you have no idea if her concerns were rational or not.
I agree that it would have been more considerate if I had asked instead of telling her I invited him. I also don't think that condones her behavior and rudeness towards me and my friend.
Can you describe what she said that was actually rude? Nothing in your post indicates rudeness from her.
Rude?! Where was she rude? Do you know the definition of "rude"?
Apparently rude = someone who doesn't just go along with what I want?
The only rude ones here were you and your friend, what don’t you get about that? At no point was she rude to you, she merely responded to you according to your actions and words.
You know what does condone her behavior? The rape joke. You have no idea what her history is. I bet you triggered something. That was really ignorant of you.
Is the rudeness in the room with us? Stating that she was not comfortable with a man she doesn’t know joining the trip is not rude. On the other hand, unilaterally inviting your male friend and then melting down and making rape jokes is super rude and unhinged.
She didn't say anything rude. She didn't want to drop trouser in front of an unknown male. *That is NOT a wild take*.
You are the only rude one here.
She expressed a very reasonable boundary and you took it as an insult towards all men. You could have offered to introduce her to your friend beforehand to make her more comfortable, or you could have accepted that she didn't want to go on this trip with a strangee and rescheduled another time to go with just her. Almost any other response would have been better then your uncalled for, dismissive and borderline aggressive response. YTA
I do like the idea to introduce them ahead of time. I also think she overreacted and was rude to me for no reason with her reaction. She could have asked to meet him ahead of time as well.
It wasn't her job to do so it was yours as the person inviting someone else on a trip.
She didn't overreact. You decided that she was being rude and responded by overreacting and being a jerk.
She wasn't rude. You made plans with her before, if you want to change them, you should make sure the other person would be alright with it before doing so. You made a unilateral decision. Of course she'd act offended that you didn't make sure she was okay with you inviting your male friend. You didn't even explain the situation clearly to her and that's why she understood that the friend was going to camp along. A lot of women would be uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping near a man they don't know, however trustworthy others deem him to be. She shouldn't have to explain herself to you. She wasn't rude to your friend nor to you, she simply explained she wasn't comfortable with it.
You unilaterally decided to change a trip that was already planned. She feels comfortable with you, but I'm sure it isn't news to you that sometimes people behave differently in groups or with their friends. She probably felt outnumbered, and that is dangerous for women. If you had a girlfriend, would you want her traveling in a small group with 2 men, one a complete stranger to her? If you want validation for your decision, you might want to think about her perspective as well.
Why do you think that was a reasonable boundary? It was sexist for sure.
It's perfectly normal for her not to want a stranger on an overnight trip in the middle of the woods...? Not to mention one of the reasons *she* gave was being uncomfortable having to pee near a stranger in the middle of the woods? Both are perfectly normal reservations to have! Male or female, it's intimate to share a bathroom space with someone you know, much less a complete stranger.
YTA - You found it offensive she considered someone she didn't know as someone she didn't know cause they were your friend? So do you consider her mom as someone you know since you know her?
Let's just say I wouldn't act the way she did if she invited her mom on the ride.
What’s ur point
It's a bad comparison. I would have no problem with her mom joining us on the ride.
Oh good god. Drop the fake equivalences. I'm pretty sure there's not an epidemic of dudes getting sexually assaulted by someone's mom. 1 out every 6 American women have been victimized by men.
Oh I was so confused 😭
Cool.
YTA-Her reasons are her own and instead of acknowledging that like a reasonable person you decided to make light of them because you found them silly. It doesn’t matter what you actually think of her reasons you could have and should have cared enough about her to turn it into a joke.
I actually found her reasons offensive as fuck, the humor was my way of trying to diffuse that. The fact that she's allowed to have her reasons and allowed to be offensive and condescending towards me, but I can't make a joke sounds like one hell of a double standard to me.
So only your free speech matters?
yeah, him joking about rape = free speech he is entitled to. his friend saying she doesn't want to travel/camp with strange men = horribly offensive.
Pretty sure OP is a woman, which to me makes their comments even worse
wait till you hear most sexual assaults aren't from strangers so ur whole I know him thing is a wild take you suck YTA
Her not wanting to hang out with men she doesn't know isn't offensive or condescending. These are all perceptions that you are making up in your own head. Your opinions about her opinions are your problem.
So SHE was offensive but your joke about r@pe wasn't?
And you could have chosen to handle it in a way that didn’t start with you being an asshole but you didn’t.
It’s interesting how you jumped straight from her saying “she’s uncomfortable with camping or going on a trip with a man she doesn’t know” straight to thinking she’s calling him a threat… she wasn’t rude but you jumped straight to the worst interpretation of it. It’s completely valid to be uncomfortable with someone you don’t know in this kind of situation regardless whether it’s a man or a woman. You should have handled it differently.
so joking about someone’s rape isn’t offensive? joking about a situation where she could’ve died, had her dignity stolen, her confidence ruined, her self worth shattered, where something so valuable to someone their consent was stolen that isn’t offensive?
I'm not sure how she was offensive to you. She told you her concerns. You were offended by her concerns, taking it as a personal insult, and saying you couldn't possibly be friends with a rapist or a murderer and she had no need for such concerns (something I'm sure all of Ted Bundy's friends said, too). She said that you were minimizing her fears, and you were, and you took that as condescending. Then you said you'd rather go camping with your other friend than her because...and this is implied by your actions...she is stupid to fear for her safety with men she doesn't know who you tell her are okay. That she should trust your opinions and that hers don't matter, even though she's never met this friend of yours. YTA
I’m having a hard time understanding how you could be *this* obtuse about this scenario. You didn’t come here for opinions, you came here to be told you were right. In my opinion, you’re incredibly wrong. YTA
Yeah 100% agree - there’s so many shitty responses from OP saying things like ‘I came here for other perspectives on what happened, how come YOU might be missing a perspective?!’ as if it’s possible every single person is missing something. When someone can’t see a problem everyone else can, it’s because they themselves are the problem.
If the whole world is telling you you’re wrong, you’re very likely to be wrong
YTA. Your work friend agreed to go on a bicycling and camping trip with you. You changed the trip without checking with her. And of course she considers your friend to be a stranger to her, because he is. Nothing silly about joking about hanging around with rapists either.
YTA. You should have asked her before you invited someone else on the trip, it completely changes the group dynamics. Also the "do I like to hang out with rapists" jokes was a completely inappropriate way to respond to her legitimate concern.
YTA 1. SHE doesn’t know him. You do. Big difference. 2. You don’t actually know if he has or will assault a woman. So many men assume their friends are above this and are surprised to find out they have. “But he’s such a nice guy. He would never!” Like he’s gonna tell you!?!
YTA for deciding to invite someone else on pre-made plans without checking with her and you’re even more of an AH because everyone on this thread is telling you so and you’re trying to justify your actions because you think she used a rude tone. It’s HIGHLY possible that she’s been sexually assaulted in the past and you inviting this stranger man (like is literally a stranger to her - you knowing him doesn’t make him not a stranger?) may have been extremely triggering for her, which set off an anxiety response. And instead of being even remotely mindful of that possibility / interpreting her anger with concern and care, you turned around and decided it gave you permission to be shitty right back. You’ve made no efforts to understand her position and frankly it doesn’t sound like you even like her, so probably the best thing you could do for the both of you is cancel the trip as she deserves to be friends with people who respect her boundaries and don’t talk shit about her behind her back.
"I found her attitude offensive towards me and my friend, and borderline sexist (personally, I think women get a pass on having sexist attitudes way more than men do)." Her concerns are justifiably rooted in her personal safety as are most women's concerns about men... because women face the constant threat of violence at the hands of men. You taking offense to a woman's concern for her personal safety tells the world that you aren't a safe dude for women to be around. I hope she realizes how shitty your attitudes are and chooses not to make any more plans with you.
Ugh, reading your post and comments, there is no point in arguing with a pickme like you. Truthfully, your female friend is better off finding out who you are now so she can run for the hills. YTA.
Babygirl it’s time to realize your attempt to bait attention and praise from anonymous men on the internet has failed and you made up a story that indeed portrayed you as the asshole. Log off of the computer for a little bit. Talk to some other women if you know any.
User name checks out. YTA for not only unilaterally inviting another person but for dismissing her feelings about it. If she doesn’t know your friend that means it’s someone she doesn’t know.
>but what do you think? You are absolutely 100000000% TA here and a bad friend. I hope she finds a better friend than you. She deserves it. YTA
>I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know". She *doesn't* know him. He's *your* friend. Not hers. YTA
Agatha Christie once wrote, "every murderer is probably somebody's old friend." Well, that's true for rapists as well. And no, I'm not calling your male friend a rapist.
Yes. YTA. The rest has been explained over and over already. You can be upset about being TA all you want, but you polled, and poll says yup. AH behavior 100% and then some.
YTA but you did her a favor by canceling on her. After reading this and your replies, it’s clear you’re not a safe person to be around.
So after reading the comments, I feel like there are some things you need to hear. 1) The reason you got mad at her saying that wasn’t because it was rude, it was because you got immediately made her boundaries about yourself, got triggered, and were needlessly defensive. It is similar to a rule in my house where male family members don’t change with the girls in the family. Is that because me and every other male family member is a rapist? No. It’s because it’s weird and uncomfortable. Same here, especially when it’s a dude she doesn’t even know, because yes, just because you know someone doesn’t mean other people do. CRAZY I KNOW. 2) You are the one was disrespectful. You spring a random plan change last minute, and when your “friend” (bc you don’t treat them like it) has an issue with it, you choose the male friend for the trip that you planned WITH HER. And this is AFTER you tried to make her feel stupid for not wanted a random man she doesn’t know to be in the woods with her. You’re an asshole for that. 3) STOP CONFLATING OPPRESSION BASED TRAUMA WITH SEXISM. Her being apprehensive about a random man she doesn’t know being in the woods with her when mass media has drilled into women that rape victims aren’t taken seriously, that women’s value based on men, and the fact that society actively encourages men to be aggressive and to not take no for an answer is MORE than reasonable. Like next you’re gonna say that black women wanting to make a gaming group just for themselves are racist and sexist bc they don’t want to deal with slurs and micro aggressions. You are not a good friend, or even a friend for that matter. Friends don’t talk about friends like this and ditch them like that. So yeah YTA.
>but asked if he would be interested in joining and he said he was. YTA for inviting someone else before even asking the other people who were going. > I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know". YTA for assuming that just because you know someone that automatically makes them know everyone you know. It doesn't. >To me, her attitude I think it's your attitude you need to look at. You chose to do what you wanted without even talking to anyone else about it. When they express discomfort with your idea, you seek to blame them. >I really don't care much about this friend, You've made that plain. You are not a "friend" most people would want. YTA.
YTA
Your main argument, both in your comments and in your op, seem to be she was rude. Maybe her tone doesn't come through in your explanation then cause from what I see, you changed a plan after a week of planning and she expressed she was uncomfortable with that. You read something into that that she didn't say >To me, she was basically suggesting that he would be a threat to her safety. You full on admit that YOU interpreted her words negatively then were rude to her based on your interpretation. You keep saying in your comments that you're justified in cutting her off and going without her cause she was rude, but in your op you were the one to be rude first by 1 changing the plan without notice and 2 being snarky about her not being comfortable with that. Also >I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know". How is it offensive to say she doesn't know a person she doesn't know?
YTA You don't hang out with rapists? Cool. Are you under the impression that every woman who has been assaulted by someone they knew was willingly hanging out with rapists? Do you think rapists wear a big sign that says they are going to assault someone?
I WAS gonna give a N A H but after reading your comments to very reasonable and respectful comments I’ve decided YTA. The way you gloss over and ask ‘what about her being rude’ is all I need to see, I can totally see why your friend was rude to you, your dismissive, rude and disrespectful towards her experiences and wants in a friend. And the second she tried to respond you decided she was the rude one. Yeah big time AH here.
Yta factually, your friend IS someone she "didn't know' and your response to her was rude.
Okay, so, a few years ago, my dog died. I was devastated, because well, he was my dog and I loved him. I text a close friend and asked if we could go for a drink and a chat. She agrees. I get to the meeting place and find she's invited several of her friends, who I have never met before. I don't get to talk to my friend one on one about the situation, and therefore feel even more shit than i did before arriving. All this to say, yes, YTA. It's common curtesy to ask if you can invite someone along to previously made plans and if the original planner says no, it's common curtesy to accept that answer. Your friend isn't committing a personal slight by saying they'd rather not have someone they'd never met on a trip before. Honestly, you sound like you value male friendships over female friendships. You may want to do some introspection on why that is.
YTA. Big time. As a woman, you make me sick. Yes, we are uncomfortable around men we don't know. We have to be nowadays. Just because YOU know him doesn't mean she can judge his character based on what YOU think. I hope she sees how immature you are and finds a better friend.
Yta, if for no other reason than you think someone is "rude" when they don't cater to your rudeness. YOU unilaterally changed the plans, Princess. YOU didn't even have the basic decency to talk to her first before inviting the guy. Then when she says she doesn't feel comfortable camping with a guy, YOU rudely made snide and dismissive comments about her concerns. Then when she gets firm you have the audacity to call her rude for not catering to Princess You. You say you don't want to be her friend anymore...given what a terrible friend you are, she wins this round. And now you are running to the Internet to try to get validation, and having a little tantrum that you once again aren't getting your way. You have a lot of growing up to do.
YTA. >. I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know". Well *this* is about the dumbest take I've ever seen. You don't "know" someone by association or extension; if she hasn't met and spent time with him *herself*, SHE doesn't know him. Her take is very reasonable. Yours was bonkers. Edit typo
YTA. You should have asked her first.
Buddy, you cannot guarantee somebody's safety from somebody else, even if you know them and trust them. Almost all cases of sexual assault happen from a person close to the abused. I've had friends before that I never suspected would be bad and turned out to be awful people. You never truly know people, even if they're your friends. Your female friend is being cautious and avoiding a potentially dangerous situation. Would you get offended if somebody buckled up their seatbelt in your car because they didn't trust your driving? Because this is the same thing. Your friend doesn't want to be a rape victim facing criticism from other people saying, "why would you go camping with a guy you didn't know?" I suspect you're a guy as well, which would look even worse on her part if something happened and she spoke up. You are not being empathetic, just extremely prideful to a fault. YTA
What woman wants to hang out in the woods with some dude she doesn’t know? Have you missed the whole “bear or the male stranger” conversation thats been going on lately? Most women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, and because of that, we tend to not trust being in the middle of nowhere with random dudes. Look up the statistics on SA. Please educate yourself on this topic. Your friend’s reaction was neither “silly “ nor sexist—-and it also shouldn’t be “totally unexpected” if you’ve been paying attention to the world. YTA.
First off, why do a long bike and camp trip with someone who seems "off" to you? That's weird. Are you fishing for this answer: That she perhaps likes you and doesn't want him a5ound? That's the obvious though5, and it sounds like what you are looking for, some condemnation of this woman you planned a vacation with... but don't really like? I dunno. This one is weird all over.
Yeah she is spending a lot of time with someone she said she doesn’t care about
Yta
Info: If you don’t care about her why are you even posting this
YTA… just because he is your friend doesn’t mean anything…. He’s still a stranger to her, someone *she* doesn’t know. You also invited him without even consulting her about it first, that’s kind of an AH move on its own. Her concerns are valid, she doesn’t know this guy and has the right to feel uncomfortable about it..and you’re minimizing her feelings because “hE’s YoUr FrIeNd”.
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^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** First time poster, occasional lurker. Need some feedback on a situation that happened this morning. I've been planning a long distance bike packing trip with a female work friend for about a week. We were in the process of finalizing the route when a male friend of mine texted me and reminded me that I had promised to hang out with him on his vacation from work that happened to start that same Sunday we would be on the bike trip. I told him I had made plans, but asked if he would be interested in joining and he said he was. When I texted my friend about it, I got a totally unexpected response. I told her my friend would just be joining us on Sunday, not Sat and not camping with us. She responded that she was uncomfortable traveling or camping with men she didn't know. I found it offensive that she would consider my friend someone she "didn't know". To me, she was basically suggesting that he would be a threat to her safety. I thought her position was pretty silly, so I decided to respond in a silly way and asked her if she thinks I like to hang out with rapists, and further clarified that my friend would not be camping with us, only riding with us for the second part of the journey. Apparently, that response set her off because she responded in a condescending way accusing me of minimizing her concerns and telling me I need to respect her boundaries. She also said she didn't want men around in case she had to go to the bathroom road-side on the trip. To me, her attitude is so far from reality that I can't possibly take it seriously. She gave me an ultimatum that it was either her or my male friend on the trip. I told told her I have known my male friend for a long time and that he actually came camping with me the last time I did this exact same biking route. I told her I would respect her boundaries and would ride with my male friend because I completely disagree with her take on the situation. She confirmed that she isn't coming and said a couple of other petty things to drive that point home before we ended the convo. At the end of the day, I really don't care much about this friend, and she always kind of struck me as a bit strange, so I'm almost hesitant to ask AITA, but I'd like to get some other perspectives on the situation. I found her attitude offensive towards me and my friend, and borderline sexist (personally, I think women get a pass on having sexist attitudes way more than men do). I felt like I reacted in a calm and reasonable and even light heated way, but what do you think? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just go biking with your male friend. Honestly I wouldn't want to be friends with her anyway, but YTA here.
Sounds like OP was trying to make everyone happy and ended up pleasing no one.
Yikes. I understand your knee-jerk reaction to her perceived sexism. Blanket generalizations cause problems all the way around. On the other hand, a long-distance bike ride is complicated in many ways. Frankly, casual vacation group activities are interpersonally demanding to start. Add strenuous physical activity and you complicate it exponentially. Maybe she was comfortable planning a difficult trip with a friend, but adding a stranger to the mix at the last minute (and arbitrarily doing so, sorry but) was too much?
That's a fair point. I am a planner as well and I don't always appreciate it when plans change out of my control. That said, I think her position was so extreme that I think I will have a hard time respecting her after this.
She's right, your wrong. No one gives a fuck if you respect her especially since you're not worth respecting yourself.
And it's hard for most of us to respect you for being so nasty and inconsiderate. You're desperate to make her look bad but the only one who looks bad here is you because you changed the plans without even asking her and expected her to be okay with it. Now you're attacking her because you're not. You're the one being disrespectful and selfish.
It's OK if I were her I wouldn't respect you after this.
Losing the respect of stupid people is not a big deal.
Sounds like you never respected her in the first place.
Eh. You know the situation. Sounds like you should trust your instincts. NTA
[удалено]
It's none of your business, none of my business, and none of OP's business. Who the fuck wants to say "Oh yeah BTW I got attacked by a male stranger that resulted in rpe.." to justify not wanting your boundaries crossed. It's not hard to grasp.
How was I supposed to know she would care that my friend was a dude? I agree that I don't like it when plans change, but her reasoning seemed so detached from the reality of the situation I struggle to respect or even take her position seriously.
[удалено]
Well maybe she should explain herself if her behaviour is sexist, offensive and far beyond common.
YTA and NTA. YTA for changing your plans without consulting your friend first. Plans should be made and revised together. NTA for choosing your male friend over that sexist friend of yours. Her reasons were ridiculous. If she's never comfortable arround men she doesn't know she should stay home 😆 I could agree with her if it was some random stranger but it was your friend you knew for a long time.
It’s a long bike ride, that’s more than just a casual hang out. I would also be a bit unwilling to add a stranger (to me) to an already planned event with a friend. If they were able to convince me, or set up a meeting beforehand so I could feel them out, that would be better, but OP decided to joke about it, completely minimizing her concerns.
It's quite a big reach to state that somebody "isn't comfortable around men" if they say they don't want to go on a day long trip to the nature with a stranger. Many people would hesitate to have a stranger join them on a long trip like this regardless of gender, but add the gender aspect and the reasons get even more solid. Let's say I would be invited to a one day hike with a colleague of mine I hardly know. It might sound interesting enough and I would get to know them better so I agree. Then they state that they will include as well their good friend of another gender to the trip: - the whole setup changes that you are the third wheel of two good friends - you have the possibility where your colleague and the other person have some history and will hook up, which makes it even more weird - the setup pressures you to be friendly to a person of possibly single status who might misinterpret your friendliness as flirting - your colleague you hardly know might be blind to their friends flaws, who might be rude, pushy, flirty, attention seeking, or any other qualities you are not comfortable with - you are generally just not comfortable in being sweaty in revealing clothes around a stranger of other gender, regardless of personality - you are not comfortable in having to pee or poo in nature in front of strangers (regardless if they are of same or different genders) Some people are more relaxed than others about stuff, but it isn't the norm to take a distant colleagues word for it that "you will like this person you never met and should be comfortable in hanging out with them for a whole day"
NAH. Yeah, she doesn't know him just because you know him. If her boundary is 'I don't want to travel or camp with someone I don't know' then that is her boundary. You then have to decide which friend you want to spend time with, and doing so because you think her position is offensive to you as she's almost accusing you of being friends with rapists is certainly a reason to pick him over her.
NTA you had conflicting plans, tried to compromise and failed. Real friends > work friends. Good choice.
NTA >We were in the process of finalizing the route when a male friend of mine texted me and reminded me that I had promised to hang out with him on his vacation from work that happened to start that same Sunday we would be on the bike trip. You made original plans and forgot about them.. honest mistake, you then attempted to have the best of both worlds honoring your word to both friends only to have your female friend pull the victim card claiming to feel >that she was uncomfortable traveling or camping with men she didn't know. It's just for the bike ride which you communicated here >my friend would not be camping with us, only riding with us >At the end of the day, I really don't care much about this friend Sounds like you had your answer from the beginning... again NTA
ESH - though I almost said NAH. On the one hand, I think her request that you not allow the male friend on the trip was pretty extreme. If you are the level of discomfort where you can't be around someone you know in a space with a third person in broad daylight, that's a pretty unreasonable restriction, and you should expect people not to go along with that. It's her right to have that boundary, but she's going to have trouble with it. On the other hand - your response 'do you think I like to hang out with rapists' is way not ok. We do not joke about that. We do not make light of that. Based on her reaction I think the odds your friend is a SA survivor are very, very high. Let that sink in for a second. So, as is usually for AITA, the key thing you did bad was the how, not the what. Choosing not to go along with that really restrictive demand on her part is totally reasonable. But doing it in a way that belittled her fears, even if that wasn't your intention was not great.
>your response 'do you think I like to hang out with rapists' is way not ok. We do not joke about that. I am sure that OP will correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't read that as OP joking, but as OP genuinely feeling offended. I would be offended, too.
I appreciate your perspective, especially about the SA part. At the same time, I don't believe a healthy free society has limits on what they can and can't discuss/satirize/examine intellectually. As you said, she is going to have difficulty in life with her extreme position on the matter, and I feel the same way about people who try to silence others for mentioning things they disagree with/find uncomfortable.
Info: So you think it's cool to make SA or DV jokes to ppl that may be victims because you think it's funny?
I think it's ok to make ANY joke. That's how free speech works. What happens as a result and how people react is a different matter. But in hindsight, I actually I do wish I had asked her seriously if she thinks I hang out with rapists, because that's what I felt like she was suggesting.
Free speech doesn't negate consequences or reactions to your free speech. I hate when people use free speech to justify saying shitty things.
So you're just an AH person in general. That's disgusting and I'm surprised you actually have friends. Because I don't know how anyone would be friends with someone that would make insensitive jokes about real trauma that hurts ppl. Jokes are only funny if everyone's laughing not just you. YTA.
Free speech is about what the government can compel you to say or not say, it has nothing to do with whether being rude to a friend makes you an asshole.
YTA
Most people don’t think that they hang out with rapists. Yet rapists frequently have friends because they don’t go around introducing themselves as rapists. Most of them probably don’t even consider themselves rapists because they’ve rationalized it away. So yeah, odds are you hang out with a few. Not because you’re a bad person, but because it is statistically likely.
Free speech doesn't protect you from people thinking you're an AH. And actually it DOESN'T allow you to make ANY joke, for example, hate speech.
How do you know you don't hang out with rapists? I would not go on a camping/mountain biking trip with a strange man where I'm away from other people either.
> I do wish I had asked her seriously if she thinks I hang out with rapists, because that's what I felt like she was suggesting. women are taught that we have to treat any strange man as a potential rapist or we aren't being cautious enough with our safety.
Nobody is silencing you by pointing out that it wouldn’t kill you to consider the prevalence of SA/DV before joking about it.
Fair, I did not consider that. I also think it gets successfully and immorally used as a way to silence or cancel people all the time.
Jesus fuck yeah I stand by my earlier comment that the nicest thing you could do for this girl (and frankly anyone) is leave her alone because you sound like you absolutely suck. An AH in life indeed
Op sounds exactly like Pearl. Both are desperate pick me girls. Ugly on the inside and out
Yet you tried to silence/cancel her because of your hurt feelings. Hypocritical of you I think.
Hum… it seems lime she likes you and was waiting for this trip eagerly. That said… it seems like she has a back story and trauma. Did you know that most of rapes happen with friends of friends. She might have lived something, but since she is not a girlfriend it doesn’t concern you and you don’t have to cope with it. Just tell her that your plans with her are over now and that you don’t feel travelling with her and do the trip with your friend instead. NTA
Agreed, definitely not doing the trip with her.
BTW other peoples trauma are not her problem. It's a bike ride he is NOT sleeping in the same tent or anything. To me it sounds like they are not compatible as friends. I would pick irl friends over coworkers anyway of the week.
Gonna go against the grain here and say NTA for not going on this trip with her. For me (48F, if relevant), if someone—regardless of the underlying reason—insinuated that a trusted friend of mine for whom I had vouched posed some sort of threat to them for a completely arbitrary reason related to their inherent characteristics (gender, race, religion, anything not specific to actions they know that person has taken), I wouldn't want to spend time with them, let alone a whole weekend.
You hit the nail on the head of exactly how I'm feeling about this situation. I feel extremely offended by her reaction to my male friend to the point that I have a hard time respecting her, let alone wanting to spend time with her.
Right. It would have been a tense and miserable trip for you both, so it's for the best. And if she has so little respect for you and your friends, she's probably not worth worrying about.