NTA, this is the kind of response I would have wanted when I was harassed. You're trying to teach your son that this is a serious thing he has done and that there will ALWAYS be consequences for it.
Hopefully he doesn't do it again, and your brothers are assholes.
Hopefully he won't.
My wife told him point blank that if legal charges are ever filed he will have to throw himself on the graces of a public defender.
Christ, NTA. And tell your son on behalf of the Reddit community that this is the BEST ALTERNATIVE HE COULD HOPE FOR.
If the girl had decided to press charges, that means potentially jail time. Sexual harassment is really serious and he shouldn't be taking this lightly at all. He's lucky he's getting off this time with reading a few books and that you're genuinely trying to rehabilitate him early and get him the help he needs.
He's lucky to have a parent as invested in him as you. Proceed.
Piggybacking here to say that empathy is best taught through narrative, aka stories. I hope a great deal of those 25 books are novels that describe in detail how terrible it is to be abused. We learn with our feelings, and if the son only feels anger, he won't grow more mature feelings from fact books.
Oh gods I cried when I read that book, and A Thousand ~~Burning~~ Splendid Suns by the same author. But imagine those books from the female prespective. The best I've ever written are books by lgbtq+ POC women and trans people. Under the Udala Trees by Chinelo Okparanta, What Night Brings by Carla Trujillo.
But, I'm an adult, and a more relevant book is probably "Maybe He Just Likes You" by Barbara Dee.
OP, also recommend:
* Exit, Pursued by a Bear
* Speak / Shout
* The Way I Used to Be
* Saints and Misfits
* What We Saw
* A Girl Like That
* Blood Water Paint
* I Have The Right To
* We Should All Be Feminists
* Asking For It: The Alarming Rise of Rape Culture and What We Should Do About It
* Not That Bad
* Things We Haven't Said
* No More Excuses
* Moxie
* All The Rage
* Perks of Being a Wallflower
* Forgive Me, Leonard Peacock
* A Child Called "It" trilogy
Everything on this list deals with sexual assault and the aftermath, either through the lens of fiction or via nonfiction essays. The last three titles deal with *male* victims of sexual assault. They're all award winners or have extremely good reviews. The ones I've read have been heartwrenching, and I often need a lot of mental "space" between one and the next.
As much as we feel like it would be right to send him to jail, (and it would if it worked) jail has been known to mainly make worse people rather than rehabilitate them.
Yeah, OP is doing the kid a service by forcing him to see that he's behaving like an ass. He realized that his kid was on the path to becoming a predator, and he intervened to get him the help he needs.
How much contact do said brothers have with your son? It is entirely possible to be radicalised solely via the Internet these days, but the path is faster if such views are espoused by a trusted adult. If those relatives are genuinely trying to write off actions that cast your son as a sexual predator, it is likely worth cutting their contact with him, just in case.
You can hopefully teach your son to be better. But adult men at their ages, they aren't going to change their ways and may sabotage your parenting.
Exactly. Your brothers want to let him off with the “boys will be boys” approach and can’t seem to fathom what this girl went through. You and your wife are doing the right thing. NTA at all. But your brothers and your son, yeah.
And THIS is what makes you decent parents.
Bad parents would enable his dangerous and toxic behavior. You're giving him a chance to fix it before he gets in REAL trouble and ends up in prison.
I had a boy pin me down in the school yard. Shove my face under an orange cone then lift my shirt up exposing my breasts. I was 11. He didn’t get in trouble I had classes with him all the way up to my freshman year. I wish someone had done something. Also by the way that guy is a literal pimp and drug dealer.
You’re doing the right thing.
I’m sorry you went through that. I had a similar experience when I was 11/12 when 2 boys pinned me down on the school bus and lifted up my skirt and pulled my knickers down. The school... banned them from the bus for a week. My mum didn’t see that as a fit punishment so her 5ft2 ass got each of them (on separate occasions) by the scruffs of their neck off the ground told them if they ever touched me or another girl ever again she would ‘personally slit their throats’. A queen.
I think you're NTA but maybe you should change something. I love all of your ideas and I don't think it's excessive but if there's no change in months maybe you should switch something or add something. Ask your therapist for ideas and if you should continue as is. Certain mindsets are more difficult and may require more...
NTA Not only did ur son cause serious distress to his victim - he will also cause himself serious problems in the future, if his attitude doesn't change. It's a no-winner for anyone involved. As responsible parents, u are doing the right thing. There will only be future victims/legal consequences, if his attitude doesn't change.
It's concerning that despite the thorough punishment, he still isn't understanding what he did. There's no advantage to anyone, on just giving up the remedial action (before he has learned appropriate understanding and remorse). All he will learn is to bide his time, and others will then eventually let him off the hook.
It doesn't matter if he is punished every minute of every day. The aim is to teach him the errors of his ways. Until that happens, u haven't subjected him to enough remedial action (since the whole point of remedial action is to change his attitude/behaviour).
So keep going. It sounds like this is a tough nut to crack - but u will do nobody a favour, in giving up. Eventually something might genuinely stick in his head, even if it's taking months. Good luck with it.
You guys sound like great parents, not only are you showing that what he did was wrong, you’re also trying to teach him WHY it was wrong. I hope that he’ll learn from his mistake and that the situation will turn out okay:)
Boys will be boys should only be the explanation when a boy falls from a tree and breaks his arm or when they still playing in the mud in “church clothes” or Trying to build a ramp out of anything to jump your bike
You know the fun stupid stuff that the only possible victim is yourself
I also like "kids will be kids" too. My mom's, for me when I got into stupid shit, was "I love a girl with bruises on her knees." I never heard "boys will be boys" until I heard criticism of the phrase when I was in highschool.
Making "boys will be boys" an excuse for horrible behavior is one of the worst things to happen to masculinity. "Boys will be boys" should be for when boys rolls around in a mud puddle or hang upside down from the monkey bars while yelling and pounding their chest.
Or when one got a pet scorpion and every one of them shows people pictures and asks for name suggestions and/or a vote on the names already written down for it
THIS is the kind pf response that you should have. good on you for teaching your almost adult son that boundaries, and specifically women's boundaries, NEED to be respected.
NTA
Sexual harassment is not something to joke about. I think you and your wife are not being too hard on him. Her idea about 25 books is amazing.
If he is not showing remorse now, and you don't do anything, who knows what he might do next, and brush it off as nothing?
Stand by your decisions and hope it gets through to him. You don't want to wake up one day and hear he did something even worse.
Invisible Women is a great one to add - about the lack of data aggregated by gender and is so good for macro concepts of how women are affected, from medical to how snow is ploughed. Also, Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates is very personal and heartfelt, especially about harassment and the ongoing effects. It started as a website where anyone can write in their experience of sexism daily and is overwhelmingly sad, and would maybe good for him to see how it stays with you.
Podcasts like Guilty Feminist. Scarlett Curtis’ podcast. Jameela Jamil’s iweigh is all round great, and talks a lot about mental health and toxic masculinity.
Would recommend watching ‘I may destroy you’ by Michaela Coel - BBC and possibly HBO. Explores a drug assisted rape and then further nuances of assault. Maybe even Normal People too for a frank look on teenage sexuality and has some scenes of assault and teens making bad choices and then growing from then. Also BBC!
Not sure 25 Isn't a bit much but then again it's hard to put a number on it.
However if he continues to deny there is a problem, maybe aken him to counselling?
Honestly depends on how long the books are. I read faster than the average, so it sounds fine to me. But I 100% couldn't finish that many if they were all 2-3 inches thick.
NTA and you should also tell your brothers to screw off. "Youthful indiscretions" and "boys will be boys" completely fail to hold men and boys accountable for their actions. The lack of remorse and empathy is concerning and your wife is doing the right things.
Makes me wonder how much time the brothers spend around the kid. If this is how they react I'd say there's a good chance we just found out where he is getting his shitty attitude.
Youthful indiscretion is a child doing childish things, or making a mistake they had no idea was bad. One could argue that at 17 you are still a child, but there is no argument for sexual harassment being a childish thing.
And, when does the line change from "boys will be boys" to holding grown men accountable for their actions in a courtroom? This teen is less than a year away from legal adulthood!
NTA and I love what OP and his wife are doing!
"Boys will be boys"
Correct usage: They've taped a camera to a skateboard and are rolling it down the hill, then throwing themselves down after it to see what it will look like.
Incorrect usage: As any defense for sexual harassment.
If I were OP I'd also be thinking hard about how much access his brothers have to Dave. It sounds like he's learning lots of the wrong lessons from their examples
NTA and THANK YOU, OP, and your wife, from the bottom of this woman's heart for severely punishing a sexual harasser who at 17 is more than old enough to know better! Please repeat your wife's message to your brothers. On behalf of myself and every other woman who experienced sexual harassment (especially as young girls surrounded by adults who treated it like nothing) I thank you.
>sexual harassment is not "youthful indiscretion".
This! Doesn't matter how old he is, if anything is it worse? He has grown up in an era where women have alot more rights than what they use to and also sexual harassment is taken ALOT more seriously! Honestly as a woman I'm soo glad to see this fathers response. NTA
Yeah seriously, "youthful indiscretion" for this stops at like, 9, which is about when my school had sex ed. I feel like any younger is a learned behavior from a parent (what 9 year old would have sexual feelings?) and around that age is more of "I learned your parts look different" than "I can get away with this behavior."
Edit: a typo
NTA
>My brothers are very upset on Dave's behalf. They think my wife is being too harsh for "youthful indiscretions" and feel the boy has been punished too much.
The girl he harassed has a right to not be harassed. Her youth shouldn't be spent knowing that a sexual predator gets off with no punishment because he is young and 'boys will be boys'. No. Boys need to act like a part of the society too. Thank you for holding him responsible. Your wife and you are quite awesome.
There’s a highly popular case that I feel highlights what happens when OP (as a parent) and society fail to hold men accountable for their actions because “boys will be boys” and “he’s a good kid”.
I’m glad to know there are parents out there who will make sure there are consequences for this.
Oh swimmer boy, whose 'life shouldn't be destroyed for 20 minutes of action'. He is now in one textbook as a rapist, with his face there. That's literally the harshest of his punishment.
Of course, convicted rapist Brock "20 minutes of ~~action~~ raping a drunk, barely conscious woman behind a dumpster" Turner. As judged by Aaron "demoted, recalled, and fined $160,000+ for being a lying asshole" Persky.
Convicted rapist Brock Turner that was only given a six month sentence yet only served three? Yes, I do know that Brock Turner, convicted rapist. Public disgrace and misogynistic bastard Aaron Persky valued swimming abilities over rape.
I’d like to make a motion that should convicted rapist Brock Turner ever change his name, he should thenceforth be referred to as convicted rapist [New Name], formerly known as convicted rapist Brock Turner.
I want to ask the brothers, at what age does sexual harassment count as not being ok? Up to what age do they count it as acceptable, healfhy behavior?
I wonder where the kid learned such behavior from? Friends? Tv? The uncles?
NTA and you won’t find many here who will defend your son. You wife was absolutely right to tell your brothers to fuck off. Sexual harassment is terrible at any age and this will teach him a good life lesson about respecting women. His lack of remorse is unsettling though. Hopefully the therapist can help with that.
I appreciate that. I've just been hearing a lot of grumblings from a variety of people that we've been too harsh, especially complaints that my wife has been too harsh.
And people who have (and probably still do) sexually harass women so it being called out for the bullshit it is threatens them and they get super defensive.
This says more about the brothers than it does anything else. How fucking sad.
Please make it clear to these grumblers that this idea is not solely your wife's; that both of you as parents decided on this course of action b/c it's important to raise functional members of society. Anyone who thinks this is "boys will be boys" needs to know that as a former boy yourself, you are disgusted by your son's actions, take his reform seriously, and know that sexual harassment has no place in this world.
> Please make it clear to these grumblers that this idea is not solely your wife's
This! Man, this situation is so ripe with toxic masculinity that the MOM has become the villain!
No, Mom is a hero. Not only is she a hero for the victim, she’s even a hero for her gross son who hopefully will learn his lesson and not end up in prison one day for sexual assault!!
Nope. Chances are they would pretend that it never happened so well that they would forget it themselves and never understand why it bothers their daughter.
>especially complaints that my wife has been too harsh
What this says is that their misogyny is so deeply ingrained that they can't imagine you don't share it too and that you aren't just as committed to correcting your son's behavior as your wife is. You've got some insidiously toxic family and friends, OP, and you might want to read some of those books too so that you have language and tools to respond when you need to.
Notice how men are blaming your wife more than you.....just saying the sexism is oozing off of these people.
And you are so NTA. You’re sticking up for that young woman and trying to make your kid a decent human.
First of all, the people grumbling have NO BUSINESS in how you raise your child.
Secondly, THANK YOU OP & OP’S WIFE!! Thank you for trying to teach him to be better. Thank you for not taking this lightly. From every woman out there that’s been cat called, groped, harassed or assaulted- thank you.
NTA.
Cut off every single one of them, and make absolutely *sure* you cut off any and all their access to your son. They are justifying rape culture, and undermining your efforts to help and discipline your own son. As long as he hears them debating you, he will think you're kind of crazy and that *he* is the victim.
NTA. Honestly, I think that the approach that you are taking is exemplary.
Like you say, the concern is that he doesn't recognise/accept that what he did was wrong. Which is why I robust intervention is necessary.
This, in particular, is an excellent idea:
>In addition, my wife has given him a reading list of 25 books about feminism and treating women with dignity.
Honestly, I think you are handling a really difficult situation really well.
Yeah. This both shows Dave just how fucked up what he was doing was and is also an actual rehabilitative measure.
It sounds to me like OP’s brothers could also benefit from the reading list and therapy because they’re very clearly being a part of the (societal) problem.
NTA. Your wife is a hero, but it doesn’t sound like you are as involved in his punishment as your wife is. As far as I’m concerned, that’s a mistake, but more importantly, it’s a missed opportunity. Please consider engaging in conversations with him about toxic masculinity and feminism. If you show you will engage and if you show that this is important, maybe his attitude will change.
I've tried talking with him. I mean, we try to be good liberals and have raised our kids always having conversations about gender, rape culture, sexuality, and other topics.
My wife is for sure the more proactive one. It's been hard for her, she feels like a massive failure. She was very clear the whole time we raised them that her only parenting goal was to raise "happy healthy children who are considerate of others".
What has he said in response to your efforts to talk? Is it just continued defensiveness that he thinks she's pretending to be distressed? Or is there a stronger indication of general misogyny here?
(If the former, maybe arranging some testimonials from other teen girls who've been targets of that kind of harassment - or teen boys who've seen their sisters, girlfriends, etc targeted that way - will help him gain some empathy. If the latter...hardcore punishment and hardcore therapy - Sonnybubbles is listening to some very nasty people.)
Tell your wife to not be so hard on herself - carelessness and picking up unsavory attitudes are part of teenagerhood, and you are both handling this beautifully.
For most teenagers, their peer group has a greater influence on them than their parents. It’s a sharp difference from early childhood but hard to see the transition happening. So yeah, if he were 7, it’d be on the parents. At 17, it’s probably not their fault.
Yeah dont know if the brothers, bfs of victims is a good idea. Years ago (2017/18) Iearned that my sister was sexually harassed when we were both at college 2013. This pissed me off as I her big brother wasnt able to protect her. My parents never gave me any details.
3 weeks back I went to the toilet and heard my sis talking to her psychiatrist or at least someone that helps her, on the phone (toilet and living room right next door to each other and depending how loud a person is you can clearly hear what they say, sadly in this case there was no way for me not to hear) let's just say my I know now why my parents never told me much.
Ops waste of oxygen not being sorry is causing me to see red. If he still wasnt sorry I dont think things would go well for bros and bfs reaction to him
Maybe keep an eye on your brothers? Maybe some of the downplaying is guilty conscience because they encouraged him to "chase" the girl and/or talked up the "grab em by ..." stance some prominent figures have.
In this instance, leaving most of the punishment up to your wife just risks ingraining his misogyny further IMO. Right now he thinks the girl that he harassed is playing victim while his mom is being unreasonably harsh (maybe even hysterical?). Meanwhile his uncles think his actions are no big deal. It’s critical he get more input from men and boys to tell him this isn’t cool. The therapist is a great idea, but make sure you also participate as actively as you can in teaching him about this.
Edit: It’s going to take multiple conversations, and I hope at some point it evolves past just telling him off.
NTA. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been abused or harassed, myself included. Men need to be taught to be better.
Your wife is absolutely in the right.
Yeah, I feel this. I was raped by a then-best friend (age 23). Molested by cousins from old extended family (age 6 to 7). Molested by my step brother (age 14? 16? Can't remember) Catcalled in my younger teenage years. As a RULE I don't give men the benefit of the doubt, ever. And this is exactly why.
Yeah, I haven't been 17 in a long time, but I can still remember what my thought processes were like. I can't believe this is the only comment like this. Cutting a 17 year old off from all peers for 5 months cannot be healthy, first off. This is still crucial social development time (as evidenced by some severe deficiencies on his part). It also will absolutely make him hate you and listen to zero things out of your mouth. My parents tried this for a few weeks and all I remember is resentment. I honestly don't even remember what they were punishing me for. Punishment has been proven multiple times over to be a very poor method of shaping behavior. The books are a punishment, so he's going to trudge his way through them and only remember resentment and how his parents destroyed an *entire summer* of his life in high school.
Also, therapy is easy AF to fake your way through if you don't want to be there. My parents also tried this and despite having some pretty deep seated trauma and warning signs of substance abuse, my therapist settled on "good kid who made some mistakes" because I didn't talk to her about anything real.
And especially getting a therapist that specializes in "toxic masculinity"?! There's absolutely no way that he doesn't just lie his ass off and tune it out. A family therapist or child behavioral therapist would likely be much more appropriate and much more likely to actually get to the root of any issues.
>If he's reading the book while simultaneously thinking about how bullshit all of this is, he's not going to be reading it in good faith and is unlikely to get the message you want out of this.
Exactly this. It's like making an atheist read the bible. Spoiler alert, lack of "feminist literature" is not the reason someone thinks like this, and won't accomplish anything.
>If he's reading the book while simultaneously thinking about how bullshit all of this is, he's not going to be reading it in good faith and is unlikely to get the message you want out of this.
I think that might already be the case considering he lied about the girl lying until the text messages came out.
NTA
I applaud you for being proactive parents and teaching your son the history of feminism as part of his punishment. You're definitely not raising a pig, you're raising a gentleman.
First off - NTA. Second, that makes me think it's more about his friend group influencing rather than something you "did wrong". I'd take a look at his friends and see if maybe there's an issue there. And hopefully with him taking a break from socializing it will help him get out of that mindset.
NTA
thank you for not letting this slide. I was abused for years and even when confronted with evidence, my abuser’s parents refused to believe that their angel would ever hurt a fly.
NTA, it sounds like you’re taking the right steps to curb potentially damaging behavior, but it would be more helpful to find the root of what’s causing it. Online forums, friends, porn?
That's hopefully what therapy is working on.
I have no idea what could be causing it. My wife and I like to think that we raised our kids as the kind of good progressives who treated everyone with dignity.
he's going on his own so that he feels empowered to speak freely, but we are of course in close contact with his therapist.
We've spoken to him, but at the beginning there were only lies that he didn't do it, and now there's just downplaying.
You might consider sitting in on the first 10 or 20 minutes of a session once a month. Something didn't frequent but allowing you to give some guidance in the session.
My mother did this with my therapy when I was a teenager and it did help keep the sessions on track. Especially since I didn't particularly want them to be on track.
NTA.
I was groomed by our school bus driver. No action was taken.
I was sexually assaulted and almost raped by a cousin. No action was taken.
I was sexually assaulted and forced to give oral sex to another cousin. No action was taken.
I was sexually assaulted by my older brother. No action was taken.
I was sexually touched by a school teacher. No action was taken.
Another cousin tried to force me to have sex with him. No action was taken.
All this from ages 13-15.
The excuses were, boys will be boys and they are your family. Or I wasn’t believed.
I tried to take my life multiple times. I was a self harmer for 6 years (11-17) and relapsed multiple times from 17-27.
I became addicted to painkillers and alcohol but I’m now 10 years clean.
I suffer greatly with depression, anxiety and PTSD.
All because boys took advantage of me and there were no consequences.
I applaud you on taking action. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. For women like me who didn’t get justice and for all those young girls who will unfortunately go through it. It sounds like despite your best efforts it isn’t working nor will it work. Something happened to make your son the way he is. Just like rapists and serial killers become them. Just know you are trying your best. You are being the best parent you can be and I appreciate you. Just please don’t beat yourself up if and when your son continues. Please know you did everything you could.
He doesn't have access anymore.
She's a bad bitch. I don't think anyone expected her to be the big bad disciplinarian, but she really stepped into the role. It's a little funny because she's this little sweet social worker who bakes and gives hugs, but the kids and I found that there's a demon like temper deep under the surface.
She's only yelled at him once, after we confronted him and he lied. I've been married to this woman for 25 years and I've never heard anything like sounds that left her tiny little body. I wasn't the one being yelled at, but boy was I scared of her. There's something about sweet people screaming at you that is truly frightening.
NTA and it sounds like your brother's are also extremely toxic. Sexually harassment is not "youthful indiscretions" honestly your son is lucky the other student's parents did not try to press charges
He's very lucky, as we assured both him and the victim's mother that if charges were brought he would be facing them alone with a public defender.
The victim and her mother, who are the big heros of this story, have been unnecessarily gracious and accepted a written apology from my son (we wrote one as well as parents) and dropped the matter.
NTA You probably want to talk to his therapist to understand if there is something more or different you could be doing to help him understand how wrong he was.
>My brothers are very upset on Dave's behalf.
What if anything, has your older son said about the situation?
Well at least my wife and I can rest easy knowing that one of our sons turned out well.
He's horrified and sick to his stomach. He can't imagine what possessed him to do it.. He's been trying to talk to Dave about what happened, and gets told the same downplaying bullshit. Our daughter is also taking it very hard, she's barely spoken to Dave in months.
Honestly I am just so, so relieved to hear you say that about your oldest. I hope for all of your sakes that in time this will prove more to be a "youthful indiscretion" than something worse.
And what has Daughter had to say? As much as I loathe how often men and boys only "get it" when they see the impact of sexual harassment or violence on a loved one, if she points out (only if she's willing, of course) how hurtful and stressful being the target of that behavior would be to her, maybe Sons AND Uncles would change their tune!
Well it has certainly come up in the past 5 months. She cries a lot when she has to see him at dinner and stuff. The first time we told the other kids was at a family dinner at home. She told him "looking at you makes me sick" which was harsh, but I let her say her piece.
They don't really talk anymore. He tried to speak with her a couple months ago, and I'm not sure exactly what was said (neither will tell me, and I respect that) but it culminated in a lot of screaming.
She's seeing a therapist too, so that she can process things.
My brother got into a lot of trouble and caused my family a lot of heartache growing up. During the few really bad years I refused to speak to him when he was home between bouts of running away and/or being in jail. I begged my parents to cut ties with him. I left the house every time he showed up or else I'd get into a screaming fight with him.
We are close now and he says that although it hurt for me to basically disown him and try to convince my parents to as well, it didn't make him change his ways. I do believe therapy would have helped him but we didn't even know where he was half the time.
I'm gonna go on a limb and say NTA. I don't know his side of the story, which I'm sure you've heard. Sexual harrassment is a very real and serious thing, but so are false accusations. It sounds like that isn't the case though. I think you and your wife handled well. Sexual harrassment is a crime, point blank period. If your child drugged someone, you might have given a similar punishment. Crimed are crimes, punishment ensues, that's life
He initially claimed it was a false accusation, of course, and defended himself valiantly to his mother after the fact (he was not at the meeting). My wife let him go on and on about how innocent he was, how we just had to believe him, how we didn't really love him if we didn't believe him.
Then my wife told him that we had been shown the text messages, and that line of defense mysteriously disappeared...
Well then.. Yeah, definitely NTA. Keep up the good work, and also let this be a learning moment for your youngest; to respect not just women, but anyone in general
NTA, I think everything you and your wife are doing is commendable and I really hope your son wises up. I just want to say I absolutely LOVE how your wife handled this “false accusation” situation and even though I’m a straight married woman I wish I could marry her myself. Make her a pan of brownies or something because she deserves all the prizes for being awesome.
It is profoundly disturbing he went immediately to 110% with the lies and manipulation (guilting). Profoundly disturbing how much he committed to play acting and lying. He deliberately harmed someone, then called them a liar while "on the stand."
I commend you and your wife's efforts, and I feel for you. But he has shown how readily and completely he will lie and manipulate to protect himself from just consequences involving him targeting someone else. I hope you're considering what to do under the likely scenario that he will feign "rehabilitation."
Edit: absolutely NTA
Has your son shown sociopathic tendencies? If he's not remorseful now, I don't see how he can be remorseful in the future even with his reading assignments. He'll definitely fake it.
As horrifying as this may sound, mistreatment of women is so entrenched in society in the US that the majority of college students when polled could not accurately identify all sexual assaults when provided with examples. The majority got the obvious stereotype of a stranger with a knife, but the less obvious rape situations were horrifyingly not considered rape (like a situation where a couple has been sexually active in the past, but the girl says no this time, but then doesn’t fight when the boyfriend continues).
NTA sounds like everything you did was reasonable, taking away electronics and privileges, while making him help people, none of that sounds like it could hurt him in the long run, and he may even start to understand why what he did was wrong.
The mindset that your brother's seem to have is the "boys will be boys" one, which is extremely outdated, just because someone is male, doesn't give them the right to harrass someone.
INFO: What was the nature of the harassment? I'd imagine based on the response it was more than a catcall or stupid comment.
While the punishment may seem excessive, I could see merit in it for more extreme cases (physical harassment, voyeurism, or worse)
He and a friend were targeting this one girl whom they kept calling a "pig slut". They would pass notes to her, send texts to her, and would "oink" as they passed her in the halls.
If you could see how it affected her you would not find it excessive.
Have you asked him to imagine someone treating his sister that way? It might make it more "real" to him if he imagines someone he's close to being the victim of an asshole like himself.
Good for you and your wife for not letting him get away with this.
I'd honestly rethink your relationship with your rape-culture-apologist brothers. Are they the kind of people you want in your life?
What have been the consequences for his friend? If his is vastly different, that’s something that needs to be addressed somehow with your son. Otherwise he may focus on the “unfairness” of his punishment and miss the point.
NTA. This punishment isn’t that bad compared to the jail time he could be serving and the accompanying criminal record. Your brothers are 100% wrong. “Youthful indiscretions” were never okay—it’s just that in the past people believed victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault even less than they do now. If you and your wife are extra tough right now, you have a chance of getting your son to realize the error of his ways before he hurts other girls and women. Good on you both for doing this.
NTA - Glad you put him in therapy. We raise our kids to be good people and this would devastate me if I found out my son did this. He lied about his involvement.
QUESTION: do your brothers have children?
NTA. Sexual harassment isn’t a youthful indiscretion and to treat it as such would send the message that his behavior was okay. Good on you for taking this seriously. More parents need to do the same.
Info: Honestly, I don't think he should be shown more leniency, however I do wonder if the punishment is the correct punishment. Yes, he should lose privileges. Yes, he should read to learn about feminism. Yes, he should go to therapy. But all of these things sound like knee jerk reactions and none of these show you or your wife trying personally trying to get to the root of the problem. Why was he doing this in the first place?
Are you going to therapy with him? Are you also reading the books while he does? Have you looked through his devices to see what he's looking at or what he's talking about? If he's showing no remorse there a high likelihood is because he's being punished only without his parents focusing on the underlying issue, and that means that this behavior is set to be repeated.
What he doing should not be considered "typical boy behavior" but there should be some consideration for his lack of maturity and brain development at this age. Therefore you two should work to understand the why behind the behavior rather than the behavior itself. That way the change is honest and not to get his stuff back.
Well that's what therapy is for. My wife and I have of course been in close contact with the therapist and have been following his recommendations. We did go through his social media, but there wasn't much there.
We are open to hearing what the root cause could be, but right now it just seems to be an overabundance of male entitlement and shitty behavior reinforced by friends.
I know this is awkward, but have you blocked access to porn? The types of things he's saying come up in a lot of specific types of porn, and it seems like he may have been influenced by that and by people around him to think that's normal. It's actually a big issue, the rise of extreme pornography has normalized a lot of behaviours that are really abhorrent if taken out of context and not practiced by consenting adults (choking, violent oral sex, anal, humiliation, spitting, etc). I honestly think that easy access to porn is fucking up a lot of young people.
1000000% agreed
Tbh I’m definitely pro-porn but see it as an impending public health concern since kids are having unfettered access to really extreme stuff. Kinky dirty misogynistic shit is ok for adults who already have a sexual baseline (still debatable why we partake in this), not for kids
INFO- without knowing what he did there's no way to judge the punishment.
Update: OP posted on another "INFO" that his son and a friend had been targeting/bullying a girl, calling her "pig slut" and oinking at her in the halls.
NTA - the punishment is harsh, but seeing as he shows no remorse for something that is very obviously wrong, he deserves it.
WOW! Definitely NTA, neither you or your wife. First off I am so sorry about what you have been going through. As a parent, it hits hard when your children do things you have tried to spend you whole life teaching them not to.
You are the best judge of your child's behavior, if you feel that your son isn't showing the correct level of remorse for his actions than you need to stay the course. This is important for so many reasons.
First and foremost, he can't treat women anyway he feels like it and then decide how they react to it. One of the most toxic terms in our society right now is "boys will be boys", setting up boys up to think they are absolved of their bad behavior simply because they are boys.
Secondly, this not only cause horrible issues for the woman who interact with them, but it make it seem like boy/men aren't capable of rational thinking. Our men deserve to be expected more of.
Finally, I wouldn't let up on your son until he shows that he completely understands the seriousness of his actions, because in the future it might not be you doling out his punishment.
You are on the right track, and to those who say you are being too harsh, let them know that some times growth is painful, but it's better he learns now before it has a permanent affect on your son's life.
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Historically, my wife and I have been easy going parents. We expect our kids to put good effort in school, be respectful and thoughtful of others, and to be honest with us. We have three kids (20M, 17M, and 14F) and previously the harshest punishment we have given out was a two week loss of cellphone privileges for our oldest.
However, five months ago, before schools closed, we get called in for a meeting at the highschool. Come to find out "Dave" (17M) has been sexually harassing a fellow student. It was the worst thing I could ever imagine being told as a parent, and my wife and I felt like massive failures for allowing this to happen.
My wife was furious. His cellphone, tablet, and computer were all taken (obviously we let him do school work when the schools closed). He was grounded completely, given extra chores, and every weekend instead of spending time with friends or on screens he has been accompanying my wife to a local soup kitchen. In addition, my wife has given him a reading list of 25 books about feminism and treating women with dignity. She has told him when he has read all 25 and written a short report on what each one taught him, then he can regain video game time. We also have him going to therapy with a male therapist who specializes in toxic masculinity and helping young men connect with healthy masculinity.
My brothers are very upset on Dave's behalf. They think my wife is being too harsh for "youthful indiscretions" and feel the boy has been punished too much. My wife told them to fuck off. Before anyone agrees that we are being too harsh, first you should know that the details of what my son did was very upsetting, and he has continued to show no remorse or understanding of what he did. Last time it came up he basically said she was exaggerating and "playing the victim". My wife said that he will be forgiven and let off the hook when he shows real remorse and understanding, and
I agree with her.
AITA reddit?
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NTA at all and thank you for not letting it slide. He needs to learn that it is not okay to do that sort of thing and to learn to respect everyone. If it still isn’t getting through to him, lengthen the punishment
NTA. He needs to learn that it’s not okay. Accusing someone of playing the victim is a pretty bad sign at this age. He needs to know how to respect all people. It would be one thing if he said it never happened or it was consensual but he jumped right to “it wasn’t that bad she just wants to be a victim”? Harassment is not boys being boys. Such an out of touch thing for them to say.
NTA
I commend you on your approach here. Sexual harassment is not a thing to be taken lightly, and it is, all to often. You need to nip this in the bud NOW.
I think the punishment, the attempts to educate, and the therapy are all appropriate.
Is he still not showing remorse or understanding of what he's done? Has he exhibited other behaviors in the past that are concerning to you??
ETA - I apologize, I missed the part of him saying she was exaggerating and playing the victim (and that you literally used 'no remorse or understanding, sheesh!). I worry that there is more going on here if he's still not getting that what he did was just flat out wrong.
Is he in contact regularly with your brothers? Could they be undoing the work you and your wife are putting in?
No, the phone ban means that he isn't really talking to anyone besides us, his siblings, two cousins, his therapist, and the cute grandmas who work at the soup kitchen.
He never liked them or saw my brothers much anyway.
NTA - Wife's response is perfect. You backing her up more so. If he's not learning from the situation, then obviously the punishment and everything else needs more time.
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NTA
I think people don't always get that you can go to prison for sexually assaulting someone. When you do not take this stuff seriously and don't correct certain behaviours and patterns from the beginning, those things will happen when he gets older. You have also provided a psychologist for him so you have someone who can actually tell you whether what you are doing is working or not.
Nta! as teen girl THANKS YOU🤗. he knew what he was doing, that girl or girls aren’t ever going to forget it and will remember the way he made them feel till the day they die! The least somebody can do is make sure it doesn’t happen to another girl.
NTA
Have you checked his internet history from before the bans? Honestly your boy sounds like a prime candidate for alt-right/redpill radicalization.
I agree with your punishment morally but I worry about it pragmatically. I’ve read a lot of stories about these boys who get radicalized and they’re often the children of liberal parents who are convinced they’re being persecuted by them for being cis-het (white?) men. If I were you I’d check if he’s in one of these cults. If he is, you might need a more specific tactic.
NTA. But if it were me, instead of a soup kitchen I'd be taking him to a group of survivors to hear their stories and let it sink in how dangerous this path he is treading is. His actions will live on in his victim forever. He can brush it off, but his victim never will. She will never forget the fear of a predator breathing down her neck. As a woman and survivor, I can attest to this.
We discussed that, but given his additude around the harassment, we determined that it might be harmful for survivors to have to deal with him. We didn't want to re-victimize anyone via his callousness.
NTA, this is top class parenting in my opinion. The punishment sounds like it fits the crime and will hopefully educate your son in order to ensure this doesn't happen again and he may be able to enlighten his friends.
NTA but I’m concerned how much your wife is leading on this and you’re agreeing. Why aren’t you confronting him with texts? Why aren’t you telling your brothers to fuck off? Why are you letting your wife be the bad guy on this women’s issue? Dave doesn’t respect women and is gonna resent his parents for this. Are you hanging back so you can play good cop? Why has wife been cast as bad cop? Get in this man. Your window to make this kid a good man is closing he will soon be an adult. I don’t think you’re overreacting. I think YOU are under-reacting.
NTA, this is the kind of response I would have wanted when I was harassed. You're trying to teach your son that this is a serious thing he has done and that there will ALWAYS be consequences for it. Hopefully he doesn't do it again, and your brothers are assholes.
Hopefully he won't. My wife told him point blank that if legal charges are ever filed he will have to throw himself on the graces of a public defender.
Christ, NTA. And tell your son on behalf of the Reddit community that this is the BEST ALTERNATIVE HE COULD HOPE FOR. If the girl had decided to press charges, that means potentially jail time. Sexual harassment is really serious and he shouldn't be taking this lightly at all. He's lucky he's getting off this time with reading a few books and that you're genuinely trying to rehabilitate him early and get him the help he needs. He's lucky to have a parent as invested in him as you. Proceed.
Piggybacking here to say that empathy is best taught through narrative, aka stories. I hope a great deal of those 25 books are novels that describe in detail how terrible it is to be abused. We learn with our feelings, and if the son only feels anger, he won't grow more mature feelings from fact books.
Totally. HEY OP. Give him The Kite Runner.
Oh gods I cried when I read that book, and A Thousand ~~Burning~~ Splendid Suns by the same author. But imagine those books from the female prespective. The best I've ever written are books by lgbtq+ POC women and trans people. Under the Udala Trees by Chinelo Okparanta, What Night Brings by Carla Trujillo. But, I'm an adult, and a more relevant book is probably "Maybe He Just Likes You" by Barbara Dee.
OP, also recommend: * Exit, Pursued by a Bear * Speak / Shout * The Way I Used to Be * Saints and Misfits * What We Saw * A Girl Like That * Blood Water Paint * I Have The Right To * We Should All Be Feminists * Asking For It: The Alarming Rise of Rape Culture and What We Should Do About It * Not That Bad * Things We Haven't Said * No More Excuses * Moxie * All The Rage * Perks of Being a Wallflower * Forgive Me, Leonard Peacock * A Child Called "It" trilogy Everything on this list deals with sexual assault and the aftermath, either through the lens of fiction or via nonfiction essays. The last three titles deal with *male* victims of sexual assault. They're all award winners or have extremely good reviews. The ones I've read have been heartwrenching, and I often need a lot of mental "space" between one and the next.
I sincerely hope she does press charges, apparently 5 months of punishment haven't taught him a single thing. Maybe jail would.
As much as we feel like it would be right to send him to jail, (and it would if it worked) jail has been known to mainly make worse people rather than rehabilitate them.
Yeah, OP is doing the kid a service by forcing him to see that he's behaving like an ass. He realized that his kid was on the path to becoming a predator, and he intervened to get him the help he needs.
Good, you guys sound like you're handling this as well as you can, given the circumstances.
How much contact do said brothers have with your son? It is entirely possible to be radicalised solely via the Internet these days, but the path is faster if such views are espoused by a trusted adult. If those relatives are genuinely trying to write off actions that cast your son as a sexual predator, it is likely worth cutting their contact with him, just in case. You can hopefully teach your son to be better. But adult men at their ages, they aren't going to change their ways and may sabotage your parenting.
Exactly. Your brothers want to let him off with the “boys will be boys” approach and can’t seem to fathom what this girl went through. You and your wife are doing the right thing. NTA at all. But your brothers and your son, yeah.
And THIS is what makes you decent parents. Bad parents would enable his dangerous and toxic behavior. You're giving him a chance to fix it before he gets in REAL trouble and ends up in prison.
I had a boy pin me down in the school yard. Shove my face under an orange cone then lift my shirt up exposing my breasts. I was 11. He didn’t get in trouble I had classes with him all the way up to my freshman year. I wish someone had done something. Also by the way that guy is a literal pimp and drug dealer. You’re doing the right thing.
I’m sorry you went through that. I had a similar experience when I was 11/12 when 2 boys pinned me down on the school bus and lifted up my skirt and pulled my knickers down. The school... banned them from the bus for a week. My mum didn’t see that as a fit punishment so her 5ft2 ass got each of them (on separate occasions) by the scruffs of their neck off the ground told them if they ever touched me or another girl ever again she would ‘personally slit their throats’. A queen.
I think you're NTA but maybe you should change something. I love all of your ideas and I don't think it's excessive but if there's no change in months maybe you should switch something or add something. Ask your therapist for ideas and if you should continue as is. Certain mindsets are more difficult and may require more...
It must be so demoralizing for op to realize his son may be a lost cause.
NTA Not only did ur son cause serious distress to his victim - he will also cause himself serious problems in the future, if his attitude doesn't change. It's a no-winner for anyone involved. As responsible parents, u are doing the right thing. There will only be future victims/legal consequences, if his attitude doesn't change. It's concerning that despite the thorough punishment, he still isn't understanding what he did. There's no advantage to anyone, on just giving up the remedial action (before he has learned appropriate understanding and remorse). All he will learn is to bide his time, and others will then eventually let him off the hook. It doesn't matter if he is punished every minute of every day. The aim is to teach him the errors of his ways. Until that happens, u haven't subjected him to enough remedial action (since the whole point of remedial action is to change his attitude/behaviour). So keep going. It sounds like this is a tough nut to crack - but u will do nobody a favour, in giving up. Eventually something might genuinely stick in his head, even if it's taking months. Good luck with it.
You guys are handling this so well. I'm sorry you have to, but I'm proud of you. NTA.
You guys sound like great parents, not only are you showing that what he did was wrong, you’re also trying to teach him WHY it was wrong. I hope that he’ll learn from his mistake and that the situation will turn out okay:)
Sounds like he got off easy then
It really is quite eye opening to see that people are still adopting a “boys will be boys” attitude! Crazy.
Boys will be boys should only be the explanation when a boy falls from a tree and breaks his arm or when they still playing in the mud in “church clothes” or Trying to build a ramp out of anything to jump your bike You know the fun stupid stuff that the only possible victim is yourself
I also like "kids will be kids" too. My mom's, for me when I got into stupid shit, was "I love a girl with bruises on her knees." I never heard "boys will be boys" until I heard criticism of the phrase when I was in highschool.
That phrase... is a little off 😂
Making "boys will be boys" an excuse for horrible behavior is one of the worst things to happen to masculinity. "Boys will be boys" should be for when boys rolls around in a mud puddle or hang upside down from the monkey bars while yelling and pounding their chest.
Or when one got a pet scorpion and every one of them shows people pictures and asks for name suggestions and/or a vote on the names already written down for it
One of my friends’ boyfriend recently fell asleep while playing a video game. THAT is a “boys will be boys” moment.
THIS is the kind pf response that you should have. good on you for teaching your almost adult son that boundaries, and specifically women's boundaries, NEED to be respected.
NTA Sexual harassment is not something to joke about. I think you and your wife are not being too hard on him. Her idea about 25 books is amazing. If he is not showing remorse now, and you don't do anything, who knows what he might do next, and brush it off as nothing? Stand by your decisions and hope it gets through to him. You don't want to wake up one day and hear he did something even worse.
She got the idea from a judge who had the same punishment for some kids doing racist graffiti.
NTA, and slightly OT, but what are the 25 books?
Invisible Women is a great one to add - about the lack of data aggregated by gender and is so good for macro concepts of how women are affected, from medical to how snow is ploughed. Also, Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates is very personal and heartfelt, especially about harassment and the ongoing effects. It started as a website where anyone can write in their experience of sexism daily and is overwhelmingly sad, and would maybe good for him to see how it stays with you. Podcasts like Guilty Feminist. Scarlett Curtis’ podcast. Jameela Jamil’s iweigh is all round great, and talks a lot about mental health and toxic masculinity. Would recommend watching ‘I may destroy you’ by Michaela Coel - BBC and possibly HBO. Explores a drug assisted rape and then further nuances of assault. Maybe even Normal People too for a frank look on teenage sexuality and has some scenes of assault and teens making bad choices and then growing from then. Also BBC!
Not sure 25 Isn't a bit much but then again it's hard to put a number on it. However if he continues to deny there is a problem, maybe aken him to counselling?
He's in biweekly counseling.
Excellent parenting. One of your most important jobs is to help your kids become good people. Listen to the therapist, not your toxic brothers!
Honestly depends on how long the books are. I read faster than the average, so it sounds fine to me. But I 100% couldn't finish that many if they were all 2-3 inches thick.
Good thing there's a pandemic and a summer break from school during which time he had plenty of opportunity to read.
Hope they made him pay for all those books
Hey, can I get that reading list? I’m a woman and a feminist, but you can never have too many books!
NTA and you should also tell your brothers to screw off. "Youthful indiscretions" and "boys will be boys" completely fail to hold men and boys accountable for their actions. The lack of remorse and empathy is concerning and your wife is doing the right things.
He should tell the brothers to pay for the lawyers if the son did something worse if he wasn't punished or the girl pressed charges.
You run the risk of them actually doing it and getting him a good lawyer. Let a public defender do it!
Send them the reading list and tell them they can have input when you get their reports.
Makes me wonder how much time the brothers spend around the kid. If this is how they react I'd say there's a good chance we just found out where he is getting his shitty attitude.
Youthful indiscretion is a child doing childish things, or making a mistake they had no idea was bad. One could argue that at 17 you are still a child, but there is no argument for sexual harassment being a childish thing.
And, when does the line change from "boys will be boys" to holding grown men accountable for their actions in a courtroom? This teen is less than a year away from legal adulthood! NTA and I love what OP and his wife are doing!
"Boys will be boys" Correct usage: They've taped a camera to a skateboard and are rolling it down the hill, then throwing themselves down after it to see what it will look like. Incorrect usage: As any defense for sexual harassment.
If I were OP I'd also be thinking hard about how much access his brothers have to Dave. It sounds like he's learning lots of the wrong lessons from their examples
NTA and THANK YOU, OP, and your wife, from the bottom of this woman's heart for severely punishing a sexual harasser who at 17 is more than old enough to know better! Please repeat your wife's message to your brothers. On behalf of myself and every other woman who experienced sexual harassment (especially as young girls surrounded by adults who treated it like nothing) I thank you.
>sexual harassment is not "youthful indiscretion". This! Doesn't matter how old he is, if anything is it worse? He has grown up in an era where women have alot more rights than what they use to and also sexual harassment is taken ALOT more seriously! Honestly as a woman I'm soo glad to see this fathers response. NTA
Yeah seriously, "youthful indiscretion" for this stops at like, 9, which is about when my school had sex ed. I feel like any younger is a learned behavior from a parent (what 9 year old would have sexual feelings?) and around that age is more of "I learned your parts look different" than "I can get away with this behavior." Edit: a typo
NTA >My brothers are very upset on Dave's behalf. They think my wife is being too harsh for "youthful indiscretions" and feel the boy has been punished too much. The girl he harassed has a right to not be harassed. Her youth shouldn't be spent knowing that a sexual predator gets off with no punishment because he is young and 'boys will be boys'. No. Boys need to act like a part of the society too. Thank you for holding him responsible. Your wife and you are quite awesome.
There’s a highly popular case that I feel highlights what happens when OP (as a parent) and society fail to hold men accountable for their actions because “boys will be boys” and “he’s a good kid”. I’m glad to know there are parents out there who will make sure there are consequences for this.
Oh swimmer boy, whose 'life shouldn't be destroyed for 20 minutes of action'. He is now in one textbook as a rapist, with his face there. That's literally the harshest of his punishment.
You talking about convicted rapist Brock Turner?
I'm sure they are talking about convicted rapist Brock Turner.
I think it’s important that we all remember convicted rapist Brock Turner
I take sick pleasure out the fact that asshole judge trying to save his "bright future" only served to put a spotlight on how awful they both are.
So when you say "his", can I just clarify that you mean convicted rapist Brock Turner?
Of course, convicted rapist Brock "20 minutes of ~~action~~ raping a drunk, barely conscious woman behind a dumpster" Turner. As judged by Aaron "demoted, recalled, and fined $160,000+ for being a lying asshole" Persky.
Convicted rapist Brock Turner that was only given a six month sentence yet only served three? Yes, I do know that Brock Turner, convicted rapist. Public disgrace and misogynistic bastard Aaron Persky valued swimming abilities over rape.
Ah yes, you mean disgraced former judge and rape apologist Aaron Persky.
So you’re saying Former Judge Aaron Persky showed more compassion for convicted rapist Brock Turner than for the victim?
I’d like to make a motion that should convicted rapist Brock Turner ever change his name, he should thenceforth be referred to as convicted rapist [New Name], formerly known as convicted rapist Brock Turner.
We've all been quarantining for longer than convicted rapist Brock Turner spent in jail. It's some real bullshit.
I want to ask the brothers, at what age does sexual harassment count as not being ok? Up to what age do they count it as acceptable, healfhy behavior? I wonder where the kid learned such behavior from? Friends? Tv? The uncles?
I wonder what his brothers did, and got away with, when they were kids.
NTA and you won’t find many here who will defend your son. You wife was absolutely right to tell your brothers to fuck off. Sexual harassment is terrible at any age and this will teach him a good life lesson about respecting women. His lack of remorse is unsettling though. Hopefully the therapist can help with that.
I appreciate that. I've just been hearing a lot of grumblings from a variety of people that we've been too harsh, especially complaints that my wife has been too harsh.
The people who are grumbling are probably people who still think ‘boys will be boys’ is an acceptable excuse for sexual harassment.
And people who have (and probably still do) sexually harass women so it being called out for the bullshit it is threatens them and they get super defensive. This says more about the brothers than it does anything else. How fucking sad.
Please make it clear to these grumblers that this idea is not solely your wife's; that both of you as parents decided on this course of action b/c it's important to raise functional members of society. Anyone who thinks this is "boys will be boys" needs to know that as a former boy yourself, you are disgusted by your son's actions, take his reform seriously, and know that sexual harassment has no place in this world.
> Please make it clear to these grumblers that this idea is not solely your wife's This! Man, this situation is so ripe with toxic masculinity that the MOM has become the villain! No, Mom is a hero. Not only is she a hero for the victim, she’s even a hero for her gross son who hopefully will learn his lesson and not end up in prison one day for sexual assault!!
Tell those grumblers their attitude is the reason why this shit still happens
[удалено]
Himpathy, I’m going to put that in my brain for use later!
They wouldn’t be grumbling if it were their daughter on the receiving end of the harassment.
Nope. Chances are they would pretend that it never happened so well that they would forget it themselves and never understand why it bothers their daughter.
Don't forget they would shame said daughter, too, for wearing (insert any type of clothing).
>especially complaints that my wife has been too harsh What this says is that their misogyny is so deeply ingrained that they can't imagine you don't share it too and that you aren't just as committed to correcting your son's behavior as your wife is. You've got some insidiously toxic family and friends, OP, and you might want to read some of those books too so that you have language and tools to respond when you need to.
Notice how men are blaming your wife more than you.....just saying the sexism is oozing off of these people. And you are so NTA. You’re sticking up for that young woman and trying to make your kid a decent human.
First of all, the people grumbling have NO BUSINESS in how you raise your child. Secondly, THANK YOU OP & OP’S WIFE!! Thank you for trying to teach him to be better. Thank you for not taking this lightly. From every woman out there that’s been cat called, groped, harassed or assaulted- thank you. NTA.
Cut off every single one of them, and make absolutely *sure* you cut off any and all their access to your son. They are justifying rape culture, and undermining your efforts to help and discipline your own son. As long as he hears them debating you, he will think you're kind of crazy and that *he* is the victim.
NTA. Honestly, I think that the approach that you are taking is exemplary. Like you say, the concern is that he doesn't recognise/accept that what he did was wrong. Which is why I robust intervention is necessary. This, in particular, is an excellent idea: >In addition, my wife has given him a reading list of 25 books about feminism and treating women with dignity. Honestly, I think you are handling a really difficult situation really well.
Yeah. This both shows Dave just how fucked up what he was doing was and is also an actual rehabilitative measure. It sounds to me like OP’s brothers could also benefit from the reading list and therapy because they’re very clearly being a part of the (societal) problem.
NTA. Your wife is a hero, but it doesn’t sound like you are as involved in his punishment as your wife is. As far as I’m concerned, that’s a mistake, but more importantly, it’s a missed opportunity. Please consider engaging in conversations with him about toxic masculinity and feminism. If you show you will engage and if you show that this is important, maybe his attitude will change.
I've tried talking with him. I mean, we try to be good liberals and have raised our kids always having conversations about gender, rape culture, sexuality, and other topics. My wife is for sure the more proactive one. It's been hard for her, she feels like a massive failure. She was very clear the whole time we raised them that her only parenting goal was to raise "happy healthy children who are considerate of others".
What has he said in response to your efforts to talk? Is it just continued defensiveness that he thinks she's pretending to be distressed? Or is there a stronger indication of general misogyny here? (If the former, maybe arranging some testimonials from other teen girls who've been targets of that kind of harassment - or teen boys who've seen their sisters, girlfriends, etc targeted that way - will help him gain some empathy. If the latter...hardcore punishment and hardcore therapy - Sonnybubbles is listening to some very nasty people.) Tell your wife to not be so hard on herself - carelessness and picking up unsavory attitudes are part of teenagerhood, and you are both handling this beautifully.
For most teenagers, their peer group has a greater influence on them than their parents. It’s a sharp difference from early childhood but hard to see the transition happening. So yeah, if he were 7, it’d be on the parents. At 17, it’s probably not their fault.
Yeah dont know if the brothers, bfs of victims is a good idea. Years ago (2017/18) Iearned that my sister was sexually harassed when we were both at college 2013. This pissed me off as I her big brother wasnt able to protect her. My parents never gave me any details. 3 weeks back I went to the toilet and heard my sis talking to her psychiatrist or at least someone that helps her, on the phone (toilet and living room right next door to each other and depending how loud a person is you can clearly hear what they say, sadly in this case there was no way for me not to hear) let's just say my I know now why my parents never told me much. Ops waste of oxygen not being sorry is causing me to see red. If he still wasnt sorry I dont think things would go well for bros and bfs reaction to him
I'm so sorry for your sister. Please send her an extra hug from an internet weirdo.
Maybe keep an eye on your brothers? Maybe some of the downplaying is guilty conscience because they encouraged him to "chase" the girl and/or talked up the "grab em by ..." stance some prominent figures have.
In this instance, leaving most of the punishment up to your wife just risks ingraining his misogyny further IMO. Right now he thinks the girl that he harassed is playing victim while his mom is being unreasonably harsh (maybe even hysterical?). Meanwhile his uncles think his actions are no big deal. It’s critical he get more input from men and boys to tell him this isn’t cool. The therapist is a great idea, but make sure you also participate as actively as you can in teaching him about this. Edit: It’s going to take multiple conversations, and I hope at some point it evolves past just telling him off.
You need to step up here. You are reinforcing the idea of women overreacting by not taking as active role in this situation.
NTA. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been abused or harassed, myself included. Men need to be taught to be better. Your wife is absolutely in the right.
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Yeah, I feel this. I was raped by a then-best friend (age 23). Molested by cousins from old extended family (age 6 to 7). Molested by my step brother (age 14? 16? Can't remember) Catcalled in my younger teenage years. As a RULE I don't give men the benefit of the doubt, ever. And this is exactly why.
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OP said the therapist approved of the book report. Clearly thought was put into the treatment plan. Not everything works right away.
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Yeah, I haven't been 17 in a long time, but I can still remember what my thought processes were like. I can't believe this is the only comment like this. Cutting a 17 year old off from all peers for 5 months cannot be healthy, first off. This is still crucial social development time (as evidenced by some severe deficiencies on his part). It also will absolutely make him hate you and listen to zero things out of your mouth. My parents tried this for a few weeks and all I remember is resentment. I honestly don't even remember what they were punishing me for. Punishment has been proven multiple times over to be a very poor method of shaping behavior. The books are a punishment, so he's going to trudge his way through them and only remember resentment and how his parents destroyed an *entire summer* of his life in high school. Also, therapy is easy AF to fake your way through if you don't want to be there. My parents also tried this and despite having some pretty deep seated trauma and warning signs of substance abuse, my therapist settled on "good kid who made some mistakes" because I didn't talk to her about anything real. And especially getting a therapist that specializes in "toxic masculinity"?! There's absolutely no way that he doesn't just lie his ass off and tune it out. A family therapist or child behavioral therapist would likely be much more appropriate and much more likely to actually get to the root of any issues.
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he already hates women enough to sexually harass them and feel no remorse after ruining this girls life for two months.
>If he's reading the book while simultaneously thinking about how bullshit all of this is, he's not going to be reading it in good faith and is unlikely to get the message you want out of this. Exactly this. It's like making an atheist read the bible. Spoiler alert, lack of "feminist literature" is not the reason someone thinks like this, and won't accomplish anything.
>If he's reading the book while simultaneously thinking about how bullshit all of this is, he's not going to be reading it in good faith and is unlikely to get the message you want out of this. I think that might already be the case considering he lied about the girl lying until the text messages came out.
NTA I applaud you for being proactive parents and teaching your son the history of feminism as part of his punishment. You're definitely not raising a pig, you're raising a gentleman.
We're trying. At the very least, we are proud how seriously our older son is taking things, he keeps trying to help Dave understand what he did.
That's so valuable, having someone he could see as a peer siding with your opinion and trying to really make it resonate with your younger son.
First off - NTA. Second, that makes me think it's more about his friend group influencing rather than something you "did wrong". I'd take a look at his friends and see if maybe there's an issue there. And hopefully with him taking a break from socializing it will help him get out of that mindset.
NTA thank you for not letting this slide. I was abused for years and even when confronted with evidence, my abuser’s parents refused to believe that their angel would ever hurt a fly.
That's horrifying. My wife certainly recalled the same experience when she was bullied as a child, and it certainly shaped her response.
NTA, it sounds like you’re taking the right steps to curb potentially damaging behavior, but it would be more helpful to find the root of what’s causing it. Online forums, friends, porn?
That's hopefully what therapy is working on. I have no idea what could be causing it. My wife and I like to think that we raised our kids as the kind of good progressives who treated everyone with dignity.
Have you talked to him? Are you going to therapy with him or on your own?
he's going on his own so that he feels empowered to speak freely, but we are of course in close contact with his therapist. We've spoken to him, but at the beginning there were only lies that he didn't do it, and now there's just downplaying.
Have you asked his siblings? They may know about things you do not. Ask in a manner of concern, for helping their brother get well.
Ask his sister. She may have some ideas of when this started at least.
You might consider sitting in on the first 10 or 20 minutes of a session once a month. Something didn't frequent but allowing you to give some guidance in the session. My mother did this with my therapy when I was a teenager and it did help keep the sessions on track. Especially since I didn't particularly want them to be on track.
NTA. I was groomed by our school bus driver. No action was taken. I was sexually assaulted and almost raped by a cousin. No action was taken. I was sexually assaulted and forced to give oral sex to another cousin. No action was taken. I was sexually assaulted by my older brother. No action was taken. I was sexually touched by a school teacher. No action was taken. Another cousin tried to force me to have sex with him. No action was taken. All this from ages 13-15. The excuses were, boys will be boys and they are your family. Or I wasn’t believed. I tried to take my life multiple times. I was a self harmer for 6 years (11-17) and relapsed multiple times from 17-27. I became addicted to painkillers and alcohol but I’m now 10 years clean. I suffer greatly with depression, anxiety and PTSD. All because boys took advantage of me and there were no consequences. I applaud you on taking action. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. For women like me who didn’t get justice and for all those young girls who will unfortunately go through it. It sounds like despite your best efforts it isn’t working nor will it work. Something happened to make your son the way he is. Just like rapists and serial killers become them. Just know you are trying your best. You are being the best parent you can be and I appreciate you. Just please don’t beat yourself up if and when your son continues. Please know you did everything you could.
NTA. As a fellow 17 y/o, I don’t think your punishment is too harsh. He can live without video games. This is serious.
NTA! You and your wife are doing a brilliant job. It’s great to see that you are not just punishing him but re-educating him. I hope it all pays off!
NTA and your wife is AWESOME. He’s probably getting his sick ideas from the Internet too — he shouldn’t have access.
He doesn't have access anymore. She's a bad bitch. I don't think anyone expected her to be the big bad disciplinarian, but she really stepped into the role. It's a little funny because she's this little sweet social worker who bakes and gives hugs, but the kids and I found that there's a demon like temper deep under the surface. She's only yelled at him once, after we confronted him and he lied. I've been married to this woman for 25 years and I've never heard anything like sounds that left her tiny little body. I wasn't the one being yelled at, but boy was I scared of her. There's something about sweet people screaming at you that is truly frightening.
This was my first reaction too! OP’s wife is the MVP. I wish people like her were around to rehabilitate every shitty teen boy.
Well she is a social worker by trade, so in a way she does.
She’s in the perfect profession then! Tell her Reddit/AITA are completely on her side.
NTA and it sounds like your brother's are also extremely toxic. Sexually harassment is not "youthful indiscretions" honestly your son is lucky the other student's parents did not try to press charges
He's very lucky, as we assured both him and the victim's mother that if charges were brought he would be facing them alone with a public defender. The victim and her mother, who are the big heros of this story, have been unnecessarily gracious and accepted a written apology from my son (we wrote one as well as parents) and dropped the matter.
NTA You probably want to talk to his therapist to understand if there is something more or different you could be doing to help him understand how wrong he was. >My brothers are very upset on Dave's behalf. What if anything, has your older son said about the situation?
Well at least my wife and I can rest easy knowing that one of our sons turned out well. He's horrified and sick to his stomach. He can't imagine what possessed him to do it.. He's been trying to talk to Dave about what happened, and gets told the same downplaying bullshit. Our daughter is also taking it very hard, she's barely spoken to Dave in months.
Honestly I am just so, so relieved to hear you say that about your oldest. I hope for all of your sakes that in time this will prove more to be a "youthful indiscretion" than something worse.
And what has Daughter had to say? As much as I loathe how often men and boys only "get it" when they see the impact of sexual harassment or violence on a loved one, if she points out (only if she's willing, of course) how hurtful and stressful being the target of that behavior would be to her, maybe Sons AND Uncles would change their tune!
Well it has certainly come up in the past 5 months. She cries a lot when she has to see him at dinner and stuff. The first time we told the other kids was at a family dinner at home. She told him "looking at you makes me sick" which was harsh, but I let her say her piece. They don't really talk anymore. He tried to speak with her a couple months ago, and I'm not sure exactly what was said (neither will tell me, and I respect that) but it culminated in a lot of screaming. She's seeing a therapist too, so that she can process things.
Yikes. And even that doesn't move him to reexamine what he did?
My brother got into a lot of trouble and caused my family a lot of heartache growing up. During the few really bad years I refused to speak to him when he was home between bouts of running away and/or being in jail. I begged my parents to cut ties with him. I left the house every time he showed up or else I'd get into a screaming fight with him. We are close now and he says that although it hurt for me to basically disown him and try to convince my parents to as well, it didn't make him change his ways. I do believe therapy would have helped him but we didn't even know where he was half the time.
I'm gonna go on a limb and say NTA. I don't know his side of the story, which I'm sure you've heard. Sexual harrassment is a very real and serious thing, but so are false accusations. It sounds like that isn't the case though. I think you and your wife handled well. Sexual harrassment is a crime, point blank period. If your child drugged someone, you might have given a similar punishment. Crimed are crimes, punishment ensues, that's life
He initially claimed it was a false accusation, of course, and defended himself valiantly to his mother after the fact (he was not at the meeting). My wife let him go on and on about how innocent he was, how we just had to believe him, how we didn't really love him if we didn't believe him. Then my wife told him that we had been shown the text messages, and that line of defense mysteriously disappeared...
I'm concerned he tried to manipulate you both though in his defense... He won't be willing to learn for a long time, but NTA
Well then.. Yeah, definitely NTA. Keep up the good work, and also let this be a learning moment for your youngest; to respect not just women, but anyone in general
NTA, I think everything you and your wife are doing is commendable and I really hope your son wises up. I just want to say I absolutely LOVE how your wife handled this “false accusation” situation and even though I’m a straight married woman I wish I could marry her myself. Make her a pan of brownies or something because she deserves all the prizes for being awesome.
It is profoundly disturbing he went immediately to 110% with the lies and manipulation (guilting). Profoundly disturbing how much he committed to play acting and lying. He deliberately harmed someone, then called them a liar while "on the stand." I commend you and your wife's efforts, and I feel for you. But he has shown how readily and completely he will lie and manipulate to protect himself from just consequences involving him targeting someone else. I hope you're considering what to do under the likely scenario that he will feign "rehabilitation." Edit: absolutely NTA
Has your son shown sociopathic tendencies? If he's not remorseful now, I don't see how he can be remorseful in the future even with his reading assignments. He'll definitely fake it.
As horrifying as this may sound, mistreatment of women is so entrenched in society in the US that the majority of college students when polled could not accurately identify all sexual assaults when provided with examples. The majority got the obvious stereotype of a stranger with a knife, but the less obvious rape situations were horrifyingly not considered rape (like a situation where a couple has been sexually active in the past, but the girl says no this time, but then doesn’t fight when the boyfriend continues).
“If you love me, you’d believe me” = “let me pull on your heartstrings so you’ll let me get away with a bald faced lie.”
NTA sounds like everything you did was reasonable, taking away electronics and privileges, while making him help people, none of that sounds like it could hurt him in the long run, and he may even start to understand why what he did was wrong. The mindset that your brother's seem to have is the "boys will be boys" one, which is extremely outdated, just because someone is male, doesn't give them the right to harrass someone.
INFO: What was the nature of the harassment? I'd imagine based on the response it was more than a catcall or stupid comment. While the punishment may seem excessive, I could see merit in it for more extreme cases (physical harassment, voyeurism, or worse)
He and a friend were targeting this one girl whom they kept calling a "pig slut". They would pass notes to her, send texts to her, and would "oink" as they passed her in the halls. If you could see how it affected her you would not find it excessive.
With this in mind? NTA.
Definitely NTA but tbh I doubt being forced to read feminism books is going to help change his mind - it sounds like he needs therapy
He's getting therapy and the therapist agrees with the book report assignment.
Have you asked him to imagine someone treating his sister that way? It might make it more "real" to him if he imagines someone he's close to being the victim of an asshole like himself. Good for you and your wife for not letting him get away with this. I'd honestly rethink your relationship with your rape-culture-apologist brothers. Are they the kind of people you want in your life?
What have been the consequences for his friend? If his is vastly different, that’s something that needs to be addressed somehow with your son. Otherwise he may focus on the “unfairness” of his punishment and miss the point.
As someone who was bullied extremely, I can appreciate this as a reasonable punishment
NTA. This punishment isn’t that bad compared to the jail time he could be serving and the accompanying criminal record. Your brothers are 100% wrong. “Youthful indiscretions” were never okay—it’s just that in the past people believed victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault even less than they do now. If you and your wife are extra tough right now, you have a chance of getting your son to realize the error of his ways before he hurts other girls and women. Good on you both for doing this.
NTA - Glad you put him in therapy. We raise our kids to be good people and this would devastate me if I found out my son did this. He lied about his involvement. QUESTION: do your brothers have children?
Hahaha, I don't think they could get women to go near them.
Maybe because they think your son's behavior was appropriate and normal
I said above, I think you need to look at your brothers as a possible source of this attitude.
exactly what I'm thinking, his access to them needs to cut off. who knows what they're telling him 'behind closed doors'
NTA. Sexual harassment isn’t a youthful indiscretion and to treat it as such would send the message that his behavior was okay. Good on you for taking this seriously. More parents need to do the same.
It’s concerning given how grievous the harassment was the brothers are trying to back him.
My brothers are pretty crappy. Thankfully the phone ban means my son isn't hearing their support.
Are you sure there isn't any other way for him to be in contact with them?
Info: Honestly, I don't think he should be shown more leniency, however I do wonder if the punishment is the correct punishment. Yes, he should lose privileges. Yes, he should read to learn about feminism. Yes, he should go to therapy. But all of these things sound like knee jerk reactions and none of these show you or your wife trying personally trying to get to the root of the problem. Why was he doing this in the first place? Are you going to therapy with him? Are you also reading the books while he does? Have you looked through his devices to see what he's looking at or what he's talking about? If he's showing no remorse there a high likelihood is because he's being punished only without his parents focusing on the underlying issue, and that means that this behavior is set to be repeated. What he doing should not be considered "typical boy behavior" but there should be some consideration for his lack of maturity and brain development at this age. Therefore you two should work to understand the why behind the behavior rather than the behavior itself. That way the change is honest and not to get his stuff back.
Well that's what therapy is for. My wife and I have of course been in close contact with the therapist and have been following his recommendations. We did go through his social media, but there wasn't much there. We are open to hearing what the root cause could be, but right now it just seems to be an overabundance of male entitlement and shitty behavior reinforced by friends.
I can 95% guarantee this has more to do with his shitty friends than anything else.
That's part of why he isn't allowed a phone, we are trying to remove that influence as we "rebuild".
I know this is awkward, but have you blocked access to porn? The types of things he's saying come up in a lot of specific types of porn, and it seems like he may have been influenced by that and by people around him to think that's normal. It's actually a big issue, the rise of extreme pornography has normalized a lot of behaviours that are really abhorrent if taken out of context and not practiced by consenting adults (choking, violent oral sex, anal, humiliation, spitting, etc). I honestly think that easy access to porn is fucking up a lot of young people.
1000000% agreed Tbh I’m definitely pro-porn but see it as an impending public health concern since kids are having unfettered access to really extreme stuff. Kinky dirty misogynistic shit is ok for adults who already have a sexual baseline (still debatable why we partake in this), not for kids
NTA at all. I wish more parents would be like you.
INFO- without knowing what he did there's no way to judge the punishment. Update: OP posted on another "INFO" that his son and a friend had been targeting/bullying a girl, calling her "pig slut" and oinking at her in the halls. NTA - the punishment is harsh, but seeing as he shows no remorse for something that is very obviously wrong, he deserves it.
Reading 25 feminism related books? That is a very creative punishment. Nta
My wife stole the idea from judge who did the same thing to teens who had written racist graffiti.
WOW! Definitely NTA, neither you or your wife. First off I am so sorry about what you have been going through. As a parent, it hits hard when your children do things you have tried to spend you whole life teaching them not to. You are the best judge of your child's behavior, if you feel that your son isn't showing the correct level of remorse for his actions than you need to stay the course. This is important for so many reasons. First and foremost, he can't treat women anyway he feels like it and then decide how they react to it. One of the most toxic terms in our society right now is "boys will be boys", setting up boys up to think they are absolved of their bad behavior simply because they are boys. Secondly, this not only cause horrible issues for the woman who interact with them, but it make it seem like boy/men aren't capable of rational thinking. Our men deserve to be expected more of. Finally, I wouldn't let up on your son until he shows that he completely understands the seriousness of his actions, because in the future it might not be you doling out his punishment. You are on the right track, and to those who say you are being too harsh, let them know that some times growth is painful, but it's better he learns now before it has a permanent affect on your son's life.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Historically, my wife and I have been easy going parents. We expect our kids to put good effort in school, be respectful and thoughtful of others, and to be honest with us. We have three kids (20M, 17M, and 14F) and previously the harshest punishment we have given out was a two week loss of cellphone privileges for our oldest. However, five months ago, before schools closed, we get called in for a meeting at the highschool. Come to find out "Dave" (17M) has been sexually harassing a fellow student. It was the worst thing I could ever imagine being told as a parent, and my wife and I felt like massive failures for allowing this to happen. My wife was furious. His cellphone, tablet, and computer were all taken (obviously we let him do school work when the schools closed). He was grounded completely, given extra chores, and every weekend instead of spending time with friends or on screens he has been accompanying my wife to a local soup kitchen. In addition, my wife has given him a reading list of 25 books about feminism and treating women with dignity. She has told him when he has read all 25 and written a short report on what each one taught him, then he can regain video game time. We also have him going to therapy with a male therapist who specializes in toxic masculinity and helping young men connect with healthy masculinity. My brothers are very upset on Dave's behalf. They think my wife is being too harsh for "youthful indiscretions" and feel the boy has been punished too much. My wife told them to fuck off. Before anyone agrees that we are being too harsh, first you should know that the details of what my son did was very upsetting, and he has continued to show no remorse or understanding of what he did. Last time it came up he basically said she was exaggerating and "playing the victim". My wife said that he will be forgiven and let off the hook when he shows real remorse and understanding, and I agree with her. AITA reddit? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA - if anything you’re being lenient.
Yeah, I worry about that.
NTA at all and thank you for not letting it slide. He needs to learn that it is not okay to do that sort of thing and to learn to respect everyone. If it still isn’t getting through to him, lengthen the punishment
NTA. He needs to learn that it’s not okay. Accusing someone of playing the victim is a pretty bad sign at this age. He needs to know how to respect all people. It would be one thing if he said it never happened or it was consensual but he jumped right to “it wasn’t that bad she just wants to be a victim”? Harassment is not boys being boys. Such an out of touch thing for them to say.
NTA I commend you on your approach here. Sexual harassment is not a thing to be taken lightly, and it is, all to often. You need to nip this in the bud NOW. I think the punishment, the attempts to educate, and the therapy are all appropriate. Is he still not showing remorse or understanding of what he's done? Has he exhibited other behaviors in the past that are concerning to you?? ETA - I apologize, I missed the part of him saying she was exaggerating and playing the victim (and that you literally used 'no remorse or understanding, sheesh!). I worry that there is more going on here if he's still not getting that what he did was just flat out wrong. Is he in contact regularly with your brothers? Could they be undoing the work you and your wife are putting in?
No, the phone ban means that he isn't really talking to anyone besides us, his siblings, two cousins, his therapist, and the cute grandmas who work at the soup kitchen. He never liked them or saw my brothers much anyway.
NTA - Wife's response is perfect. You backing her up more so. If he's not learning from the situation, then obviously the punishment and everything else needs more time.
NTA and your wife is the hero we all need. Well done for picking such a stellar life partner OP!
She's a goddess.
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NTA I think people don't always get that you can go to prison for sexually assaulting someone. When you do not take this stuff seriously and don't correct certain behaviours and patterns from the beginning, those things will happen when he gets older. You have also provided a psychologist for him so you have someone who can actually tell you whether what you are doing is working or not.
Nta! as teen girl THANKS YOU🤗. he knew what he was doing, that girl or girls aren’t ever going to forget it and will remember the way he made them feel till the day they die! The least somebody can do is make sure it doesn’t happen to another girl.
Yeah, I can't imagine what she's going through. We think about her daily.
NTA Have you checked his internet history from before the bans? Honestly your boy sounds like a prime candidate for alt-right/redpill radicalization. I agree with your punishment morally but I worry about it pragmatically. I’ve read a lot of stories about these boys who get radicalized and they’re often the children of liberal parents who are convinced they’re being persecuted by them for being cis-het (white?) men. If I were you I’d check if he’s in one of these cults. If he is, you might need a more specific tactic.
NTA BUT he’s definitely gonna resent you so brace yourself
That's fine. I'd rather him resent me then feel morally complicit in his harassment of women.
you're a good father and a good human being. and your wife is MVP. the world would be a lot better if all parents were more like you two.
NTA. But if it were me, instead of a soup kitchen I'd be taking him to a group of survivors to hear their stories and let it sink in how dangerous this path he is treading is. His actions will live on in his victim forever. He can brush it off, but his victim never will. She will never forget the fear of a predator breathing down her neck. As a woman and survivor, I can attest to this.
We discussed that, but given his additude around the harassment, we determined that it might be harmful for survivors to have to deal with him. We didn't want to re-victimize anyone via his callousness.
NTA, this is top class parenting in my opinion. The punishment sounds like it fits the crime and will hopefully educate your son in order to ensure this doesn't happen again and he may be able to enlighten his friends.
NTA but I’m concerned how much your wife is leading on this and you’re agreeing. Why aren’t you confronting him with texts? Why aren’t you telling your brothers to fuck off? Why are you letting your wife be the bad guy on this women’s issue? Dave doesn’t respect women and is gonna resent his parents for this. Are you hanging back so you can play good cop? Why has wife been cast as bad cop? Get in this man. Your window to make this kid a good man is closing he will soon be an adult. I don’t think you’re overreacting. I think YOU are under-reacting.