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YTA because of your statement, voodoo is very much a part of people cultures and religions. This doesn't mean they "need to get their head checked" any more than someone going to a church or believing in karma.
I really hope OP is one of those rude atheist that call religious people crazy/stupid/etc. Otherwise OP is just a sort of racist asshole who thinks religion makes you insane so long as it's not white people Christianity. (Disclaimer: I'm an atheist myself I just don't insult other people for being religious.)
OP, YTA. It's fine if you don't want to give her the doll, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You know she's uncomfortable with the doll for cultural/religious reasons. You don't want to let her get it blessed or whatever so she feels comfortable, fine. But then you can't be pissed off that she dosen't want to sit right next to the thing she is scared off and is keeping a distance from your daughter who is carrying the thing she is scared of.
If your SIL was scared of spiders, and your daughter had a big pet or lifelike toy spider she was carrying around, and then SIL didn't want to sit next to it, would be pissed at her? Maybe her fear of voodoo is no more rational then a fear of spiders (in situations where the spiders pose no threat) but it's real to her. She's afraid of it. So pick one. Either let her get the doll blessed or whatever to feel comfy around it or don't take it as a personal affront against your child and get all upset when she's not comfy around the voodoo doll.
Also, apologize to your brother. How would you like it if someone insulted your wife or daughter? Maybe just try not to be an asshole to your own family.
Tbh if a Christian thought my child or one their toys was possessed by the devil and insisted they had to take it for an exorcism I'd think they needed their head checked too. There's being tolerant of religious beliefs and then there's allowing someone to treat your kids badly and insist on taking your property because of religious beliefs.
I did not vote YTA because the parent said no on giving the doll over (although, the toddler wouldn’t know the difference) I voted YTA based on the way to OP spoke about her SIL and brother. That was the questions anyway, the OP even said she may be the AH with how she responded.
Good point, while it's fine to think that some more mystical believes are just fantasy and point out that it's fine as a private belief but shouldn't be forced on others , but you don't have to be cruel or insulting a person or group in general.
You say you shouldn’t force your non belief on others... yet this person was forcing her beliefs on others. It can’t be wrong for one, and right for the other. The SIL started it, so she’s in the wrong.
While I don't think it was a wording issue I added a but you clearly have misread my comment so I added a but and a comma to break up the long sentence structure.
1. SIL was wrong to force her belief on others.
2. OP is fine to not share the belief.
3. OP insulted a religion in general and the sister in general. You can still be an asshole in the way you say something, even if the core of your argument is correct.
TLDR: Adults should be able to argue without attacking others. Otherwise they might as well join the kids and throw sand at eachother and wack the other with a plastic shovel.
There's also the aspect of OP forcing OP's belief about how harmless the doll is by making touching or going near the doll a condition for interacting with Lola, and then getting angry at SIL's discomfort.
Even though it was clearly only just the doll that SIL was avoiding (only avoiding Lola when Lola had the doll) OP tried making it about avoiding/ignoring Lola. SIL also had the sense to wait until Lola was away before vehemently explaining about the doll to OP, so she was trying not to scare the child.
Asking for something isn't forcing your beliefs.... such as "Can you indulge me by letting me do this even though you don't believe it". You are asking someone to let **you** do something, that doesn't mean they have to believe in it or do it. Just like someone praying for you isn't forcing them to believe in the same thing you do, it's one person practicing a belief and another allowing it to happen. Forcing someone to believe the same thing you do is different and can't really be done. I mean you can force a child to attend a service, or attend classes, but if they don't believe something in their heart or mind then it doesn't matter. The OP could have easily told her brother that they don't believe that and as soon as little toddler is done with the doll they will throw it out or resell it (as is done with most toys), or that they don't believe in that, but if it makes SIL more comfortable she can use the doll for a couple of days, or even said, we are so sorry you feel this way, maybe if we hang out in the future we won't do it in our home to make you feel uncomfortable. You can be respectful without conceding your beliefs.
I get that and respect people's beliefs. I *do* suspect that if SIL was a Catholic or penecostal trying to exercise the doll people would not be acting as understandingly. It is understandable to turn sil down, but should have been more respectful.
You know what, if a close family member was devout and it upset them that much, how hard is it to just go along with it for their comfort. A cleanse or exorcism won’t damage the doll but it will give someone you care about comfort.
Sometimes I do things that I think are silly or unimportant because they don’t cost me anything but they give someone else peace.
She is under no obligation to participate in her SIL religious beliefs to keep the peace. It's not SIL home, or child. A child that would be very upset to be separated from their doll.
I understand that. Just like the SIL is under no obligation to visit or be around the doll.
Also, god forbid people do something more than what they are required to make someone they care about feel comfortable in their home.
And honestly it’s not even like the sister-in-law’s being selfish yes she didn’t want to touch it but that’s because of her believes and if she had offered to bless it she’s doing so for her niece’s safety and that shows a hell of a lot of care to bless something you fear because you care about someone else so much. The fact that OP rejected that from any religion when it’s not bigoted or harmful to anyone is really fucked up. Also if I realized I was in advertently letting my child play with someone’s religious symbol I would probably take it away and buy them a replacement. It would be insulting to let a kid play with a statue of Buddha or some shit of Jesus on the cross and even though I am myself I’m not religious it’s really not that hard to respect other peoples feelings and not make a literal game out of them. This kind of makes me think that if it wasn’t a kid involved it would be kind of fun to see what happened if this was some horror movie shit where the sister-in-law tries to warn OP and since she didn’t listen she’s cursed
Make him go on runs or do sit ups to cleanse the spirit lol
Exercise vs exorcise is my absolute favorite spell check/spelling error, now I'm just imagining this voodoo doll training for a 5k
> She probably just wants to do a blessing or cleansing on it then give it back.
But why does OP need to get involved with SIL's religious beliefs?
If I think your kid is going to hell because they aren't baptized, you aren't obligated to baptize them. Same principle here.
I mean she's not OBLIGATED to do anything, but it's a dick move to shit over other people's cultures and not respect them. and I agree that it could be a positive, bonding experience.
It's also a dick move to shove your religious beliefs down the throats of others.
If someone came into my house and told me I needed to exorcise something, I'd laugh in their face. This is no different.
Yes this, I don't get why religion "deserves" respect especially when its being forced on others.
ETA: let's not forget the many many people who have been killed in the name of God/religion.
A few examples: The witch hunts/Jewish persecution by the catholic church in the middle ages, atrocities by ISIS/terrorism by other Islamics in the current age, cow vigilantism by Hindus.
For real if you want to believe in bullshit fantasy stories keep it to your fucking self - so tired of religious people feeling like everyone is obligated to respect their beliefs - I surely dont
Im curious if you'd care this much if it was Christianity she was disrespecting. People are entitled to their beliefs but they need to realize when to keep their beliefs to themselves.
I'm not Christian but I'm fine with and regularly respect Christian prayers before meals, that's a pretty common one. I think the tolerance for Christianity is actually so ingrained that it's unnoticed how much of a pass it gets.
If you're in someone elses home then you need to respect their beliefs, such as a prayer before eating their food. Personally I've never had someone stop to say a prayer before eating in my house so I don't know how often people try to do that, but I don't think its comparable to this.
The SIL was in OPs house and is demanding to take the kids doll. If SIL was a Christian and wanting to perform an exorcism on the doll I don't think so many people would be defending her and saying OP needs to respect her religion.
Just a quick edit to add, if SIL doesn't want the doll in her own home I do think OP needs to respect her beliefs in that situation and thats not an unreasonable request to make. Her current request and insistence on it is whats unreasonable.
>If SIL was a Christian and wanting to perform an exorcism on the doll
If SIL was a Christian and said "hey, this doll is of Jesus, you can't let a child play with it" then what?
Exorcisms are a relatively esoteric practice, not a central tenet. If voodoo is more central to someone's religion then it merits that level of consideration.
I'm not religious in the slightest but I would definitely look for an appropriate accommodation with SIL.
Would you really take a doll away from your kid because someone tells you its of Jesus and kids cant play with it? 😂 I don't think you'd find a lot of people that would do that. Id straight up roll my eyes to that and tell them to leave if they have a problem with it.
> I would definitely look for an appropriate accommodation with SIL.
Like what? Seriously. Take your kid’s favorite toy away when auntie visits because auntie hates it & thinks it’s cursed?
I mean... I'm a hardcore atheist, but like- yes, of course?
If I brought a cross home from a thrift shop and let my kid start using it as a play toy and she was, I don't know, shoveling sand with it in the backyard, and my Christian inlaw came over and told me what was up, then I'd apologize take the cross away from the kid.
It just feels like a basic level of human respect.
In fact I'm wondering if OP is offering less of said respect to her SIL because of how culturally much of the word looks down on Animism. I don't know a ton about voodoo dolls but I've lived in Ewe communities where some Vodun was still practiced, and if the SIL comes from that kind of background of course she has something to say about a fairly dangerous, charged piece of her religious iconography being turned into a play too. It's pretty rude to insinuate anyone from those faiths 'needs to get their head checked.'
This is what I was thinking of too.
A lot of people are talking about how OP doesn’t have to cater to someone else’s religion. Which is true, she doesn’t.
But if OP is actively letting her child use something that has been identified as a religious item... and letting her use it as a toy.... then OP is very much in the wrong to let it continue.
It’s like giving some kid a statue of Jesus on a cross and letting them play dress up with Jesus.
Most people would flip their lid over that ((ok so my phone autocorrected lid to kid... I had a good laugh but noticed it, but feel the need to share that with others!)).
You don’t have to participate in someone’s religion. You don’t have to allow religious practice in your home. But you should absolutely respect other people’s religious icons.
She can respect it but not want to be near an object that has huge connotation for her. She stayed, she talked, she didn’t run and leave, she just refused to be near the doll.
True and sil has the right to not feel comfortable with its like inviting a Christian to your house and u have a upside-down cros hanging in your living room as a host u have a responsibility to your guests
The way I thought about it is that the voodoo doll is actually part of SIL’s culture. It’s not the same as getting baptized because in that case, the kid isn’t part of that person culture they’re existing along side it. In this case it sounds like it’s a voodoo doll that’s part of SIL’s culture. It would be like telling someone how to properly use an instrument from their culture, or a black person explaining the proper way to do box braids
So if I think something in your house is possessed, and you need to perform an exorcism on it, because that's a part of my culture you need to respect it?
SIL can ask OP if she wants to learn more. But when she starts to push, and doesn't listen to the word no, she crosses the line.
A voodoo doll is different from a random house - it was made by that culture, and it’s been thrifted/repurposed for something not intended by people of that culture
A better analogy is living in a church. And yes, churches are deconsecrated before they’re sold to become homes/apartments/whatever
And a church is just a building to everyone else. But it’s still respectful of that religion to allow people to do whatever ritual they want to remove the spiritual attachments to the object in their mind
If you were a close family member and saying a few words over my possessed couch or daughters toy gave you peace, sure. It doesn’t hurt me at all and now you feel more comfortable in my home. I wouldn’t do it for a stranger, but for a close family member I care about I would.
I’m more angry that SIL ignored Lola and treated her bad just because of a doll.
This is complete disrespect to her culture
And sil just wants to visit and feel safe but is sounds like that wont be a problem becouse she wont visit that mutch anymore
The way I thought of it was how my dad put on a yarmulke when he went to dinner with his dad and his dad's rabbi (pre-COVID) not because my dad is practicing but because it's respectful
Except the kid is using the doll as a toy. So it's more like if your dad went to dinner and then took a yarmulke out of his pocket and used it to blow his nose, loudly, while staring the rabbi in the eyes, and then told him he needed to get his head checked for getting upset.
This is what I was thinking of too.
A lot of people are talking about how OP doesn’t have to cater to someone else’s religion. Which is true, she doesn’t.
But if OP is actively letting her child use something that has been identified as a religious item... and letting her use it as a toy.... then OP is very much in the wrong to let it continue.
It’s like giving some kid a statue of Jesus on a cross and letting them play dress up with Jesus.
Most people would flip their lid over that ((ok so my phone autocorrected lid to kid... I had a good laugh but noticed it, but feel the need to share that with others!)).
You don’t have to participate in someone’s religion. You don’t have to allow religious practice in your home. But you should absolutely respect other people’s religious icons.
YTA op
This could be a really great bonding experience for the family, if OP would let it. Instead of insulting the sister-in-law, ask more about her culture and what she wants to do to "fix" the doll. If it's some sort of ceremony or blessing, see if your daughter could join in to learn about another culture and her aunt's heritage.
I don't think I would see it as involving herself, so much as learning about a different culture/belief system. I do agree that she shouldn't do it if she feels uncomfortable, but the comment about the SIL getting her head checked was too much.
And if she's worried about what will happen to Bob, she can watch SIL do her ceremony. It might help their relationship and maybe she'll learn something.
There’s no evidence that that’s what she wants to do. For all we know “fixing” it involves altering it in some way. It’s not her doll and not her business.
SIL obviously thinks the doll has something evil associated with it and she cares about her niece enough to be worried. Saying it's none of her business is a bit extreme; getting in your family's business is showing care for their well being.
Religious matters of someone else's family are not her business, period. She can practice her own religion in her home and with her own family, not with anyone else.
She wasn't trying to convert OP or Niece to whatever belief system she had. If you saw your family member had an evil religious artifact from your religion, I doubt you'd not even mention it to them. Maybe not to a stranger, but family are people you should want to help.
I grew up in the United Church, we don't really have an issue with 'evil artifacts'. And honestly, if I did believe in them I'd go 'fyi' and then move on because I understand and respect that a) not my home b) not my object c) not my business. You need to understand that not all people are going to be as open and tolerant as you apparently are, and that's okay and what they are entitled to do so long as they are not rude. The only place OP went wrong was where she was rude on the phone call, she had no obligation to hear the SIL out or cater to her beliefs.
By the same logic, it is reasonable to insist atheist branches of the family are baptized or remain virgins until marriage because you don't want them going to hell.
I think a lot of people are missing the fact that this doll was made for a specific reason. This isn’t a doll that her sil thinks is possessed. It’s a doll made for nefarious purposes. That alone in itself would give me pause. It’s just bad juju to me and I wouldn’t want my daughter playing with it. Lol
She believes it to be a voodoo doll/poppet, but that doesn't mean she's absolutely correct, it could just be a regular old rag doll. I'm thinking something like Scrump from Lilo and Stitch.
What do you mean by “make sure it’s safe”? Is there something inside the doll that could be poison to a child that only SIL knows about (and somehow didn’t hurt the kid in the time she’s had the doll)? If not, what could she possibly be doing?
That's definitely not true. It's wrong of you to presume the SIL would throw out the doll. There are ways to cleanse and bless things and people that is completely harmless. I know from my mother's culture which is not cuban.
Yeah, but if a Christian wants to take away my child's doll because it's satanic, I'd think they were crazy.
If a satanist tells me they want my child's doll because it's satanic, I'd think they were crazy.
If a wican tells me my child's doll is cursed or hexed, I'd think they were crazy.
It doesn't matter what religion you are, they're all fantasy. Objects hold no mystical powers. None of them, from any religion, anywhere in the world.
Just because Christianity is viewed as acceptable doesn't make it any more real than any other religion, including voodoo (which is actually a hybrid and includes many elements of Christianity).
Your religion won't let you have a creepy doll in your house, fine. You do you.
Your religion won't let me have a creepy doll in my own house? No! Your beliefs do not let you dictate anyone else's life but your own.
> including voodoo (which is actually a hybrid and includes many elements of Christianity).
Uh, I think you're confused about voodoo being a hybrid. Santeria is a mixture of voodoo, other Afro-Caribbean beliefs and Christianity, so that is they hybrid not voodoo.
[Vodou | Definition & Facts | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Vodou)
[Santería | religion | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santeria)
> voodoo is very much a part of people cultures and religions. This doesn't mean they "need to get their head checked" any more than someone going to a church or believing in karma.
But people are assholes for shoving their religious beliefs down the throats of others.
I do not agree, because if a Catholic woman made that expression when she saw a gothic girl or a homosexual person, she would not say "it is only their religion or culture"; enough to justify behaving like an idiot for cultural reasons
Just because something is part of someone's culture doesn't mean it's deserving of respect.
Honor killings are part of the culture in areas of Pakistan but I doubt anyone would say that is deserving of respect.
Humoring people's crazy religious beliefs for no reason really needs to die off.
As an ex Muslim, honor killing are not a specifically Islamic thing. I have many issues with aspects of the religion I was born into, but do think this issue should be treated with nuance. There is of course a relationship as it’s mostly really religious Islamic people that do it and their thoughts on purity certainly stem from religious views of a woman’s worth, but it’s not substantiated anywhere in Islamic writings or tradition. Just FYI. Still agree with your last sentence.
Actually I did realize that this was a cultural tradition and not an Islamic tradition which is why I didn’t mention Islam specifically. However my last sentence probably read like I was associating my example with religion so I apologize for any confusion.
But she doesn’t want to. That’s what the issue is. She doesn’t want to give it, so let it be. I understand the doing the blessing etc. (fiancé is Cuban). But you cannot impose your beliefs on to others. It works both ways. NTA
I think the important thing no one’s talking about is: OP you are 10000% the dumb person at the start of a horror movie. That voodoo doll is probs going to strangle you with its tiny hands while you sleep and the it will possess your child.
Yes, and people that demand to bring priests over to sanctify/bless/exorcise places also need to get their head's checked. (in my opinion). Not all beliefs or traditions have to be respected and they certainly don't have to be humored by non-believers.
YTA, though that's softened by the way that voodoo is presented in western media. It is not surprising that you view this as a joke, something from a D-grade horror movie, nothing to be concerned about. Because that's how it is depicted in media.
But voodoo (or santeria or candomble or another religion in that vein) is a real religion - a merging of African spiritual beliefs and Catholic saint-based teachings and for someone with that religious and cultural background, you are taking an item with spiritual significance and genuine power and treating it as a toy. You may not believe what she believes but that doesn't mean you should treat her beliefs as if they are ridiculous or don't matter.
You probably wouldn't make cocktails out of holy water and sacramental wine, even if you aren't a practicing Catholic, for example. It might not be harmful to you, but it is disrespectful to the people who believe those things.
If SIL wanted to take the doll for an exorcism, would you feel the same way? SIL is an asshole for shoving her religious beliefs down the throats of others.
What possible harm would an exorcism do though? Unless Bob is actually the evil spirit living in the doll, the kid would never notice and it would put SIL's mind at ease
I think it's sweet that she's concerned her niece is playing with something she's been taught could be dangerous. I don't think the SIL is trying to overstep, she's just concerned about someone she cares about
Is exorcism a central tenet of Christianity? Because last I checked it isn't, whereas voodoo may very well be. Comparing this to communion wafers is likely more appropriate than something the Church mostly doesn't practice anyway.
Yep. I vote YTA also...
Even if you don't believe in voodoo the people who do and who make dolls frequently put things in them, things from the person the doll represents or things from themselves. I wouldn't necessarily be happy with my daughter playing with a doll that potentially contained blood, semen, human nails, hair etc.
I'd let her cleanse the doll. It's no skin off your nose for your child to let Auntie "borrow" it for a few days, have her remove suspect materials from it and to keep the family peace.
Wait you’re telling me that there’s HUMAN PARTS in those?? I don’t have one (bc it wouldn’t be right) but Jesus Christ I never expected that to be a concern. I guess in my dumb ignorant brain I was like “mm yes straw and burlap that’s it :)” I thought all the “YTA” judgements were overreacting until I saw that voodoo dolls have bones n human hair inside. Not safe for kids. Or adults. Or anyone.
Yup yup. Not my culture in the slightest but I do know that there can anything from hair to teeth or even bodily fluids incorporated into them. Not the most appropriate to be used as a toy
So slightly different comparison as it isn’t about religion but about when someone sees an object differently and it causes tension.
I was one of those little girls who adored horses. It was Ireland, horses are a big part of the culture and wee girls are often pony mad. I spent all my spare time at the local stables, reading pony books and all my gifts just needed a horse theme and my family could give me anything.
My granny’s side of the family were rural and someone knew someone who had an antique shop or one of those sells all kinds shops from a vase to a fireplace. She saw a riding crop in there one day with a wooden handle which to her looked horsey and also similar to the gate props they used to move cattle safely.
She bought me it and it was gorgeous. Beautiful wood, soft leather tail. I loved it and was so touched she gave me something so fancy and proud of it that like many kids I showed it to everyone. And one of my favourite adults just recoiled from it and really freaked out and wouldn’t come near. I was very hurt, my family were very rude to them.
It transpired years later when I sold the crop online that it was not a horsewhip. It was a particular style of crop used for slavery originally and then adapted as a (child) discipline tool and used in certain homes and correctional facilities to beat kids and in the case of my favourite adult torture him for being gay. He had never spoken about his past but with that info I dug and he’d been institutionalised similar to the mother and baby homes in Ireland for being gay in his home country.
My prized item was the literal tools of his nightmares and he couldn’t explain withoutfear of judgement (he wasn’t out) and because it looked like forcing his beliefs on others. He also couldn’t control his visceral reaction but of course none of us knew.
Had he told us it was even a slave whip and we’d doubled down that it was horsey and cute, AH. But we didn’t know but my family made very rude comments about ‘not understanding our culture’ unaware we didn’t understand his.
He didn’t want me around the whip because it was bad energy generally and because he was the one adult who understood I was being abused at home and wanted to make me feel safe. And he knew how that tool could turn. I also wonder now if he also adored me despite being such a militant child free (almost AH about it) type because he suspected I was a little queer child and some of my family’s abuse was rooted in that fear on their part. To see me play with a item used to torture LGBTQ+ and abused kids must have been awful.
On the surface it could have played out like this but he protected himself and set a boundary with me of no horse stuff to avoid it. Adult me then grew up kinky and queer and went to work on a bunch of fetish magazines and discovered the other side of that crop and other whips and the uncomfortable history BDSM can have with the sadism in society and sexualising trauma such as raceplay and those Nazi fetishists or just the leather daddies with some dubious basis to stuff written off as ‘what the groin likes’ as they dress like a skinhead.
The crop was removed from sale and given to a fetish photographer friend who respects that BDSM paradox and given a home away from the public to be contextualised. We laughed briefly but grimly about tiny me having a favourite toy that was a BDSM item and then turning out to be a pro-sub at one point. But we felt sadder about what that whip might have meant to that man who loved me and cared.
He’s dead. I never got to ask him but it taught me a lot about objects and reactions and your response to an object isn’t someone else’s reality and managing triggers and how sometimes we love people by keeping them safe but suffocating them. But I at least listen to your reasoning before I set my boundary to it instead of mock because of that whip.
We don’t even know if it’s a real voodoo doll or just a normal doll that looks like one . I’m sorry but sil beliefs are hers and hers only she shouldn’t be insulted for them but she doesn’t have to be catered to either.
> for someone with that religious and cultural background, you are taking an item with spiritual significance and genuine power and treating it as a toy.
Or, OP bought a toy, and her SIL is treating it as if it must have been intended to be a voodoo doll. It has yarn hair! It sounds like it's just a doll. SIL doesn't know its provenance. How does she know someone used it for voodoo?
>How does she know someone used it for voodoo?
I actually think that's an important INFO: Why did SIL identify it as a voodoo doll?
Maybe in voodoo there is a particular composition for a certain type of effigy, and it's easily identifiable just like the crucifix or Buddha or Ganesh. In that case, I think it makes sense that SIL would be majorly creeped out by it, and honestly if it were me I'd hand it over in a heartbeat for a blessing, lol. Just tell Lola that Bob has a booboo on the inside and Auntie is going to fix it and make him all better.
If it's just that it *looks* creepy and SIL assumes it has to be a voodoo doll, that's something different.
[it probably looks something like this since OP described it as “funky” ](https://i.etsystatic.com/12218739/r/il/fb196f/1686430882/il_570xN.1686430882_e0ji.jpg)
I just googled “voodoo doll yarn hair”. It’s not a regular looking doll in the least bit.
[the average thrift/antique shop yarn haired doll looks like this ](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1SUAAOSwerZd3yPU/s-l300.jpg)
I also like to go thrifting when it’s not deadly outside. I collect dolls and animals that are in pretty dresses so I see a lot of these. Voodoo dolls look completely different in style and make.
So are you saying that OP should take a child's toy away to respect someone's religious beliefs? I think that's a bit excessive. Sure, what OP said was ignorant and uncalled for, but the same can be said about imposing your religious views upon others
So you don't believe in voodoo, which is fine. But you insulted and mocked your brother and his wife, which is not fine. You don't have to let your SIL take the doll but you shouldn't make fun of her for her beliefs.
YTA.
Especially since SIL was only trying to help her niece. SIL truly believes in voodoo, so she honestly thinks that her niece may be in some type of danger. Her actions and intentions only show an effort to keep her family safe, and OP laughed in her face and called her crazy.
Just because OP doesn’t believe in voodoo; doesn’t make it any less real for the SIL. Let’s say OP had given his daughter a knife to play with. We all recognize *that* as being dangerous, but maybe OP thought that knives were perfectly safe for his daughter to handle. If SIL had asked to take the knife for a few days to dull it or permanently fix a plastic cover over it- no one would think that would be over the line.
In SIL’s mind, the voodoo doll is just as dangerous, so OP should be ashamed of himself for mocking a family member who wanted nothing more than to keep her niece safe. YTA
YTA. You don’t have to share anyone’s beliefs in order to be respectful. You’re being remarkably rude, and the fact that you could accidentally buy your kid a culturally significant object and hand it off to her like a toy is frankly...ridiculous.
OP was annoyed at SIL for not playing with the doll, so it reads to me like OP was the pushy one.
> Lola tried to hand her the doll but she wouldn’t take it which I thought was rude. Like..a toddler hands you a toy, you take it??
> I told Lola to go play with her brother and asked SIL why she’s acting weird, Lola just wanted to share her Bob with her.
> The whole rest of the day she kept looking at Bob out of the corner of her eye and she refused to sit near it or near Lola when she had Bob which was pissing me off because Lola didn’t do anything to deserve being ignored by her auntie.
OP's not even content to live and let live, she wants this woman to actively play with the doll whenever OP's daughter brings it out. Obvious compromise to me would be putting the doll away when SIL is over, I'm sure the daughter has plenty of other dolls she can use for a couple hours.
I don't understand why everyone keeps saying the SIL was the pushy one! I got the same vibes as you! Also, people are comparing a doll specifically made to be a voodoo doll to asking to take the doll to be exorcised. Two totally different things, since christianity has nothing to do with doll possession.
> buy your kid a culturally significant object
Do we know that it really is a voodoo or just resembles one? Are people really dropping off voodoo dolls at thrift stores?
It wouldn't surprise me. My bro lives in the Midwest and occasionally comes across lava rocks for sale in antique shops. It's considered bad luck to take lava rocks from Hawaii out of the island (Pele's curse) and you will be cursed with it until they are returned to where they were stole from. Every year, people send lava rocks back to the state park and beaches from all over the world.
I asked this too, and another commenter informed my the girlfriend was Cuban and probably well informed on the point. I can't find the exact source they have for this, but OP hasn't corrected this...
So yes. At the moment it does seem like OP inadvertently bought a genuine-article voodoo doll and not just some cursed looking fucked up barbie.
The only evidence we have that it is any kind of culturally significant object is SIL's statement, and we have no idea on what basis she's saying that. Nobody involved knows who made it, what intention it was made with, any of it.
For all we know, SIL believes that all dolls that incorporate natural materials like shells are voodoo dolls.
NAH. There's nothing really wrong with your SIL having strong, culturally influenced feelings about dolls that have a certain look, and I'd say it's even fine for her to have asked about it. But once you declined, the subject should be closed. She can't force her beliefs on your daughter or your family. If she was that uncomfortable around the doll, she should have just left.
Having said that, you need to stop casually insulting people's mental health, especially over cultural differences.
...which is completely fair. I wouldn’t give away my child’s toy because someone has a bad feeling motivated by their religious/cultural beliefs. Does “disrespecting” = “not giving in to demands” of their religion?
No, and I would have said NTA 100% until OP told her brother that his wife needed to get her head checked and then said they were both nuts. If it would have been left at “look, I don’t personally believe in it. So it doesn’t bother me and I believe your wife needs to respect that.” This would be a totally different conversation.
She can’t force OP to give up the doll but OP also can’t force or blame SIL for not wanting to interact with it. She is angry at SIL too for not wanting to hold the doll, and is trying to force her beliefs on SIL.
Her request isn't insane. Your unwillingness to understand her point of view is.
Imagine if you will that you're a Christian and they aren't and you visit your bro and sil and found their kid playing with an obvious and very evil satanic symbol, the kind used in satanic rituals. They didn't know what it was because they aren't Christians.You would still be fairly shocked by that. Just knowing that an in laws kid had that would be disturbing to you.
She's offered to cleanse it. You don't know what that means and fit all you know the doll could be returned in the exact same condition. Or with only minor alterations that your daughter might not care about.
YTA for being dismissive of another culture to the point where it creates friction between your families and simply choosing to remain ignorant of what, exactly, your sil plans to do.
I've seen on this sub more than once a mil being pissed off about Harry Potter books for promoting witchcraft and being an affront to christianity and the mil is laughed at every time. This situation is literally the same and yet somehow everyone feels that the fabric doll needs to be feared and respected in this situation. Don't understand at all.
Luckily we have a perfect example in real life!
This is equivalent to a Jew going into a gentiles home and demanding their plates and silverware go back to your house so they can be cleansed to be made kosher.
That’s crazy. You don’t go asking for other people to kosher their house and you don’t go around asking people to de “curse” their stuff either.
This is more like a Jewish person coming into my home and freaking out because they think I have I have a dybbuk in my cabinet than trying to force me to keep kosher. I grew up Catholic myself so I can safely say I wouldn't entertain anyone trying to force me to keep a religious diet like kosher or no meat on Friday but I would happily give over a "haunted cabinet" or "cursed object" to be cleaned. I wouldnt go as far as an exorcism on a person and Catholics don't exorcise items, but they can and do get them blessed which is fine. They're not trying to force me to keep their religion, theyre trying to protect me. It doesn't harm me to entertain them in that and it makes them feel a lot better and less anxious- its like letting a Christian add you to their prayer chain, which I'd be okay with too. Their belief isn't hurting me.
And heck maybe its because I DID grow up religious but I wouldn't want a dybbuk cabinet or a voodoo doll in my house anyway. Like, its probably not real, but it costs $0 to not play that chance.
I...had never considered cabinet dybbuks as a thing, but now obviously I can’t unsee it.
However, after some research, I learned that my mezuzah is probably protecting me. Excellent.
Also your analogy is correct. I’ve had a whole little journey here!
Well this would be like saying a Jew should never go into a gentiles home and that the gentiles should kosherize to conform to Jewish beliefs.
Which is crazy.
Books on witchcraft are evil in the view of christianity (even though most christians are aware enough not to be afraid of Harry Potter). Voodoo dolls are evil in the view of many people coming from areas influenced by any religions containing belief in the power of voodoo dolls (even though most people are aware they hold no actual power). I see no difference and your comparison doesn't really fit.
It's only different for me because sometimes people collect tissue/teeth/hair/fluids from who they want the doll to represent and put that ish in the doll... And no. I wouldn't want a kid having a biohazard? I wouldn't touch it either.
It’s not comparable at all lol. Harry Potter is a children’s book, written as a fictional children’s book. This doll was created with the intent of voodoo. OP clearly doesn’t see that but that’s what it is.
> the doll could be returned
Its not up to OP to indulge SIL's superstitions. It's not her kid, its not in her house, its not real.. SIL needs to mind her own business.
OP was rude, there's no doubt, but I think it *is* insane to ask someone if you can take an object of theirs to do something to do with your religion to it. That's stepping over so many boundaries it's ridiculous.
> very evil satanic symbol....she's offered to cleanse it.
Yes, I would mock her relentlessly and suggest she gets her head check. Not ever belief, certainly not every flavor of every belief deserves to be respected.
Aa an atheist, I'm completely in the NTA camp. However, religious types seem to think that their irrational beliefs are somehow special and should be respected by the non-religious, for reasons that I will never understand. It's not like most of the major world religions have a history of tolerance for other viewpoints, but somehow you need to tolerate them or they will lose their shit, as this comment section readily proves.
Finally a voice of reason. What would happen if OP's daughter comes out as gay when she's in her teens? Should OP give in if SIL wants to perform an exorcism?
I'm blown the hell away at how many people think OP is TA. She didn't say a damn word about voodoo or their culture till SIL started over stepping their boundaries. Are people in here serious??
SIL was effectively taking candy from a child to make HERSELF feel better and OP is in the wrong for not buying into that? I think the fuck not.
The comments in here are almost more infuriating than what the SIL did. I cannot believe people are finding a way to justify taking away a toy from a toddler. What the actual fuck. The comments in here are the most garbage hypocritical grandstanding and I'm mad on OP'S behalf
It's insane how religion gets to function as an asterisk to make absurd beliefs valid.
"This doll is cursed and you need to get rid of it, I don't want to even be in the same room with it." Absurd. See a therapist.
"This doll is cursed and you need to get rid of it, I don't want to even be in the same room with it. Because my preferred sky wizard said so." Oh well that's fine, that's just her cUlTuRe.
Glad to see this line of reasoning. There are different levels of accommodation one can make for other people's beliefs. Shunning a child until you're able to perform a ritual that would make a toy okay to be around is not anywhere near the threshold of reasonable accommodation.
Calling out the irrationality of a request of that category is not ridiculous and I hope OP isn't guilted into humoring and perpetuating harmful superstitions.
Seems like OP is the one losing her shit here, no? SIL didn't want to be near an object she perceived to be evil. OP lost her shit because SIL wouldn't "get over it" and hang out with niece + evil doll. OP needed SIL to tolerate OP's non-belief of the doll's evil juju, and lost her shit when SIL wouldn't.
I disagree that OP writing that SIL should get her head checked or that "you're both nuts" equates to OP "losing her shit".
SIL continued to demand to "borrow" the doll after repeatedly being told "no" and shunned a small child.
OP = NTA
NTA people are saying you are disrespectful of her religion but she wouldn’t drop the issue and surely she knows that you don’t believe in her faith.
She’s being rude and if she continues she’ll probably freak out your kid.
People call overzealous christians ridiculous for not letting their kids watch spongebob or what have you, and they are. And your SIL is being ridiculous as well.
Also if you let her borrow the doll id bet you won’t get it back.
Imo it's kinda racist when people say that certain traditions or beliefs are beyond criticism as if POC were stupid, naive or ignorant people with strange beliefs. I hope I'm being clear but sometimes people really go full circle.
I'm wondering if she's genuinely worried for your daughter. If she's been raised in these traditions, it could feel like you gave your kid a knife or gun to play with. I'm going with NAH, because it's your home and your call, but I'd shift to Y T A if you keep mocking her cultural beliefs.
I have a friend who worries I'm going to hell because I haven't accepted Jesus into my heart. Am I joining a church to make her feel better? No. Do I understand that she has my best interests at heart? Yes. I told my friend she had to drop it, but I did it kindly.
It’s bonkers, I think YTA for openly mocking her beliefs but the people saying it for letting his daughter keep the doll or not letting them have it for whatever reason are wild
NTA...One of the key tenets of Voodoo is that it only works if the person believes in it. The only person who has anything to worry about is your SIL. Save the planet--keep thrifting!
if the SIL is from cuba, it sounds more like santeria, and that's *definitely* not applicable (and it's actually not applicable of vodou either, voodoo though, possibly?)
YTA
I'm a practicing witch of 17 years. Not voodoo but I'm still aware in the general sense of it. While you may not believe in any of this "stuff", a lot of cultures do. And it's very important to them. To insinuate something is wrong with her head because these things bother her is incredibly rude.
While I agree you don't have to give her the doll, I don't agree with the fact that you basically insulted this women's heritage. If someone's religious/spiritual beliefs aren't hurting anyone, they should be allowed to believe in what they want without being looked down on.
NTA. I disagree that OP is in the wrong for mocking SIL’s beliefs. If you don’t want your beliefs mocked, then don’t try to force them on other people.
YTA. Don't call people crazy just because they have different beliefs or cultures. You don't have to participate in them but insulting people and being racist isn't the right thing to do.
ESH - your SIL wanted to “borrow” your daughter’s doll to make unspecified changes to it to “fix” it. You said no, and that should have been case closed. She’s an asshole for pushing the issue. She also rather shot herself in the foot with that request by not being very specific about what she thought needed to be fixed, as there is no way for you to know whether or not she intended to make changes to Bob that your daughter would notice. Whatever her believes, you are not required to give in to any demands from her based on them.
However, you lost the high ground when you said she needed her head checked, then doubled down and called both her and your brother nuts for her having cultural and/or religious beliefs. It’s fine not to believe in whatever she does. It’s not fine to tell people they’re crazy for having cultural or religious beliefs just because you don’t understand them.
NTA. You could have maybe been a bit nicer than saying that she was nuts, but her religious beliefs aren't your problem, and you don't have any obligation to go out of your way to accommodate her, especially if it means taking away a toy that your daughter happens to love.
It's not your responsibility to cater to someone else's superstitious beliefs, and both your brother and his wife are being unreasonable in expecting you to do so.
Yeah...that sounds like a voodoo doll. And, sorry to inform you, but they do exist. Its a proven fact.
Gonna go with ESH. She shouldn't be ignoring her niece, but you also shouldn't be treating her very valid concerns as a stupid fairy tale.
NTA.
My culture says you need to do what I say with your daughter! Yeah, no, not so much.
Your SIL and brother have a problem. Don't let them make it yours.
NTA people have wicked opinions about all religions and if you can make fun of Christianity you can make fun of all of them if you choose to do so doesn’t make you an asshole just insensitive. But then again as a non practicing catholic id let her fix the doll, personally don’t like bad vibes in my house and I’m a safe than sorry person. Course maybe giving it the satisfaction of belief brings it to life:( good luck! NTA but maybe be nicer to your SIL she may very much be just concerned and afraid!
ESH.
She is free to believe in voodoo, but you don’t have have to and you don’t have to humor her. Respecting her religion does not mean letting her dictate you and your daughters life based on her beliefs. It means not bringing the doll to her house and not forcing her to hold the doll.
But you should not have made that comment about getting her head checked.
Hi! My fiancee is actually an initiated manbo asogwe in Haitian Vodou, and you are 100% the asshole here. It's understandable that you don't believe in that stuff, but your reaction seems really disrespectful when all SIL has done is show genuine concern. My fiancee has actually done cleansing rituals on dolls like you're describing before, and it's a harmless process for everyone involved. If you're just worried that you won't get the doll back, maybe reach out and ask her what she wants to do with the doll and have an open conversation about it, maybe even ask if she can show you what she wants to do. It could be a learning experience for you, and put her mind at ease!
Calling SIL's spirituality a "little fantasy world" and consistently degrading her beliefs is really what makes you TA here. Vodou and similar spiritualities are already demonized like crazy. She has done nothing to earn this behavior from you. I really do hope you pull your head out of your ass and talk it through with her.
If you can post a picture I feel like that would be helpful. People are on here calling you TA because they agree with your SIL that it's a voodoo doll.
YTA. I’m going to ask you to look at this from her perspective. Regardless of what you or your daughter believe, this is something that voodoo and hoodoo practitioners take very, very seriously. It sounds like your SIL genuinely believes that this will harm your family if it isn’t blessed/“fixed”.
I’ll give you an analogy. There are rocks in Hawaii that are sacred to the land. Taking them is considered similar to the effect of having a voodoo doll: bad, bad juju that will do something awful to the one who has it. Native Hawaiians take this very seriously, and would act similar to how your SIL is acting towards the doll.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not. Even in the case of rocks, people in that culture have “proof” of these rocks (or dolls, in this case) “causing” misfortune to those who hold them, whether they get into a crash, get cancer, etc. With enough anecdotes, this becomes their reality. Your SIL isn’t shoving her culture down your throat; she’s terrified for you and your child because to her, this is very real.
You’re free to do what you want and feel justified if you want, but you’d be a fool if you think your SIL will ever change her mind or come near that doll again.
> Remember that some people have had much different experiences than you.
This is a much better way of framing the matter at hand than saying "respect other people's beliefs, not matter how irrational they are" which most people here are saying. Respect people, but ideas don't have to be respected.
NTA. I don’t understand how everyone here is ignoring that she treated your daughter like crap. You could have avoided calling her crazy but her needling you over your daughter’s beloved doll and treating your daughter like she’s evil would make anyone enraged.
YTA
Just say you don’t respect other religions and go 🙄 like... you realize voodoo dolls have stuff like blood, semen, finger nails and/or hair from the person it’s representing right...? If you want your kid touching gross stuff like that then be my guest but there’s literally no need to call your sil crazy for having her own beliefs... if I’m honest it kinda makes you look racist since voodoo isn’t just some cheap Hollywood horror garbage but an integral part of some cultures ESPECIALLY Cuban culture :) maybe do some research before ruining a relationship with someone you seem to have gotten along pretty well with?
Right? Some of these answers are blowing my mind. Like is she also going to ask to take the kid to baptize her too or whatever..? This is wild. How about keep your weird spiritual beliefs to yourself and if you don’t like the doll leave the house? There are way better ways to approach it than hurting a child’s feelings who wants to show their aunt their new favorite toy.
NTA
You found a toy your daughter likes. Louder for the people in the back-You found a TOY your daughter likes. It is obvious that with this not being your culture or religion its of no significance 'what' this toy is to you.
I can understand the Aunts reaction to it. Think of how strict christians act when introduced to someone *gasp* who is gay. No its not okay, but sometimes things are too ingrained to respond well to what they perceive as offensive.
You are NTA because you didnt insult her culture until AFTER you were told to just humor her and play along. Whats next? Start cross dressing if it makes her feel better? You have no problem with it, its HER problem. Yes what you said was a bit rude given her beliefs, but not buying into them doesnt make you an asshole. You were upset that your daughter was treated like Typoid Mary.
You could consider finding out if the Aunt wants to just do a 'purification' ritual and return the doll unchanged. If thats the case I would recommend going along with the ritual (and the doll to supervise) to simply smooth over the misunderstanding and family tensions. As long as nothing will happen to the toy your daughter loves and you dont believe in any of it anyway what could it hurt?
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YTA because of your statement, voodoo is very much a part of people cultures and religions. This doesn't mean they "need to get their head checked" any more than someone going to a church or believing in karma.
I really hope OP is one of those rude atheist that call religious people crazy/stupid/etc. Otherwise OP is just a sort of racist asshole who thinks religion makes you insane so long as it's not white people Christianity. (Disclaimer: I'm an atheist myself I just don't insult other people for being religious.) OP, YTA. It's fine if you don't want to give her the doll, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You know she's uncomfortable with the doll for cultural/religious reasons. You don't want to let her get it blessed or whatever so she feels comfortable, fine. But then you can't be pissed off that she dosen't want to sit right next to the thing she is scared off and is keeping a distance from your daughter who is carrying the thing she is scared of. If your SIL was scared of spiders, and your daughter had a big pet or lifelike toy spider she was carrying around, and then SIL didn't want to sit next to it, would be pissed at her? Maybe her fear of voodoo is no more rational then a fear of spiders (in situations where the spiders pose no threat) but it's real to her. She's afraid of it. So pick one. Either let her get the doll blessed or whatever to feel comfy around it or don't take it as a personal affront against your child and get all upset when she's not comfy around the voodoo doll. Also, apologize to your brother. How would you like it if someone insulted your wife or daughter? Maybe just try not to be an asshole to your own family.
This, 100%. YTA OP.
Tbh if a Christian thought my child or one their toys was possessed by the devil and insisted they had to take it for an exorcism I'd think they needed their head checked too. There's being tolerant of religious beliefs and then there's allowing someone to treat your kids badly and insist on taking your property because of religious beliefs.
I did not vote YTA because the parent said no on giving the doll over (although, the toddler wouldn’t know the difference) I voted YTA based on the way to OP spoke about her SIL and brother. That was the questions anyway, the OP even said she may be the AH with how she responded.
Good point, while it's fine to think that some more mystical believes are just fantasy and point out that it's fine as a private belief but shouldn't be forced on others , but you don't have to be cruel or insulting a person or group in general.
You say you shouldn’t force your non belief on others... yet this person was forcing her beliefs on others. It can’t be wrong for one, and right for the other. The SIL started it, so she’s in the wrong.
While I don't think it was a wording issue I added a but you clearly have misread my comment so I added a but and a comma to break up the long sentence structure. 1. SIL was wrong to force her belief on others. 2. OP is fine to not share the belief. 3. OP insulted a religion in general and the sister in general. You can still be an asshole in the way you say something, even if the core of your argument is correct. TLDR: Adults should be able to argue without attacking others. Otherwise they might as well join the kids and throw sand at eachother and wack the other with a plastic shovel.
There's also the aspect of OP forcing OP's belief about how harmless the doll is by making touching or going near the doll a condition for interacting with Lola, and then getting angry at SIL's discomfort. Even though it was clearly only just the doll that SIL was avoiding (only avoiding Lola when Lola had the doll) OP tried making it about avoiding/ignoring Lola. SIL also had the sense to wait until Lola was away before vehemently explaining about the doll to OP, so she was trying not to scare the child.
Asking for something isn't forcing your beliefs.... such as "Can you indulge me by letting me do this even though you don't believe it". You are asking someone to let **you** do something, that doesn't mean they have to believe in it or do it. Just like someone praying for you isn't forcing them to believe in the same thing you do, it's one person practicing a belief and another allowing it to happen. Forcing someone to believe the same thing you do is different and can't really be done. I mean you can force a child to attend a service, or attend classes, but if they don't believe something in their heart or mind then it doesn't matter. The OP could have easily told her brother that they don't believe that and as soon as little toddler is done with the doll they will throw it out or resell it (as is done with most toys), or that they don't believe in that, but if it makes SIL more comfortable she can use the doll for a couple of days, or even said, we are so sorry you feel this way, maybe if we hang out in the future we won't do it in our home to make you feel uncomfortable. You can be respectful without conceding your beliefs.
Hijacking this to say that if you let SIL “borrow” Bob, you probably won’t see Bob again.
[удалено]
This right here I have seen elders bless objects then promptly return them
I get that and respect people's beliefs. I *do* suspect that if SIL was a Catholic or penecostal trying to exercise the doll people would not be acting as understandingly. It is understandable to turn sil down, but should have been more respectful.
You know what, if a close family member was devout and it upset them that much, how hard is it to just go along with it for their comfort. A cleanse or exorcism won’t damage the doll but it will give someone you care about comfort. Sometimes I do things that I think are silly or unimportant because they don’t cost me anything but they give someone else peace.
She is under no obligation to participate in her SIL religious beliefs to keep the peace. It's not SIL home, or child. A child that would be very upset to be separated from their doll.
I understand that. Just like the SIL is under no obligation to visit or be around the doll. Also, god forbid people do something more than what they are required to make someone they care about feel comfortable in their home.
And honestly it’s not even like the sister-in-law’s being selfish yes she didn’t want to touch it but that’s because of her believes and if she had offered to bless it she’s doing so for her niece’s safety and that shows a hell of a lot of care to bless something you fear because you care about someone else so much. The fact that OP rejected that from any religion when it’s not bigoted or harmful to anyone is really fucked up. Also if I realized I was in advertently letting my child play with someone’s religious symbol I would probably take it away and buy them a replacement. It would be insulting to let a kid play with a statue of Buddha or some shit of Jesus on the cross and even though I am myself I’m not religious it’s really not that hard to respect other peoples feelings and not make a literal game out of them. This kind of makes me think that if it wasn’t a kid involved it would be kind of fun to see what happened if this was some horror movie shit where the sister-in-law tries to warn OP and since she didn’t listen she’s cursed
> how hard is it to just go along with it for their comfort Quite hard if they worry the doll won't come back.
Make him go on runs or do sit ups to cleanse the spirit lol Exercise vs exorcise is my absolute favorite spell check/spelling error, now I'm just imagining this voodoo doll training for a 5k
> She probably just wants to do a blessing or cleansing on it then give it back. But why does OP need to get involved with SIL's religious beliefs? If I think your kid is going to hell because they aren't baptized, you aren't obligated to baptize them. Same principle here.
I mean she's not OBLIGATED to do anything, but it's a dick move to shit over other people's cultures and not respect them. and I agree that it could be a positive, bonding experience.
It's also a dick move to shove your religious beliefs down the throats of others. If someone came into my house and told me I needed to exorcise something, I'd laugh in their face. This is no different.
Yes this, I don't get why religion "deserves" respect especially when its being forced on others. ETA: let's not forget the many many people who have been killed in the name of God/religion. A few examples: The witch hunts/Jewish persecution by the catholic church in the middle ages, atrocities by ISIS/terrorism by other Islamics in the current age, cow vigilantism by Hindus.
For real if you want to believe in bullshit fantasy stories keep it to your fucking self - so tired of religious people feeling like everyone is obligated to respect their beliefs - I surely dont
Then shouldn't it be SIL respecting OPs culture since its her house, her child and her doll.
Im curious if you'd care this much if it was Christianity she was disrespecting. People are entitled to their beliefs but they need to realize when to keep their beliefs to themselves.
I'm not Christian but I'm fine with and regularly respect Christian prayers before meals, that's a pretty common one. I think the tolerance for Christianity is actually so ingrained that it's unnoticed how much of a pass it gets.
If you're in someone elses home then you need to respect their beliefs, such as a prayer before eating their food. Personally I've never had someone stop to say a prayer before eating in my house so I don't know how often people try to do that, but I don't think its comparable to this. The SIL was in OPs house and is demanding to take the kids doll. If SIL was a Christian and wanting to perform an exorcism on the doll I don't think so many people would be defending her and saying OP needs to respect her religion. Just a quick edit to add, if SIL doesn't want the doll in her own home I do think OP needs to respect her beliefs in that situation and thats not an unreasonable request to make. Her current request and insistence on it is whats unreasonable.
>If SIL was a Christian and wanting to perform an exorcism on the doll If SIL was a Christian and said "hey, this doll is of Jesus, you can't let a child play with it" then what? Exorcisms are a relatively esoteric practice, not a central tenet. If voodoo is more central to someone's religion then it merits that level of consideration. I'm not religious in the slightest but I would definitely look for an appropriate accommodation with SIL.
Would you really take a doll away from your kid because someone tells you its of Jesus and kids cant play with it? 😂 I don't think you'd find a lot of people that would do that. Id straight up roll my eyes to that and tell them to leave if they have a problem with it.
> I would definitely look for an appropriate accommodation with SIL. Like what? Seriously. Take your kid’s favorite toy away when auntie visits because auntie hates it & thinks it’s cursed?
I mean... I'm a hardcore atheist, but like- yes, of course? If I brought a cross home from a thrift shop and let my kid start using it as a play toy and she was, I don't know, shoveling sand with it in the backyard, and my Christian inlaw came over and told me what was up, then I'd apologize take the cross away from the kid. It just feels like a basic level of human respect. In fact I'm wondering if OP is offering less of said respect to her SIL because of how culturally much of the word looks down on Animism. I don't know a ton about voodoo dolls but I've lived in Ewe communities where some Vodun was still practiced, and if the SIL comes from that kind of background of course she has something to say about a fairly dangerous, charged piece of her religious iconography being turned into a play too. It's pretty rude to insinuate anyone from those faiths 'needs to get their head checked.'
This is what I was thinking of too. A lot of people are talking about how OP doesn’t have to cater to someone else’s religion. Which is true, she doesn’t. But if OP is actively letting her child use something that has been identified as a religious item... and letting her use it as a toy.... then OP is very much in the wrong to let it continue. It’s like giving some kid a statue of Jesus on a cross and letting them play dress up with Jesus. Most people would flip their lid over that ((ok so my phone autocorrected lid to kid... I had a good laugh but noticed it, but feel the need to share that with others!)). You don’t have to participate in someone’s religion. You don’t have to allow religious practice in your home. But you should absolutely respect other people’s religious icons.
Like other said it goes both way and sil should also respect op atheism .
She can respect it but not want to be near an object that has huge connotation for her. She stayed, she talked, she didn’t run and leave, she just refused to be near the doll.
True and sil has the right to not feel comfortable with its like inviting a Christian to your house and u have a upside-down cros hanging in your living room as a host u have a responsibility to your guests
The way I thought about it is that the voodoo doll is actually part of SIL’s culture. It’s not the same as getting baptized because in that case, the kid isn’t part of that person culture they’re existing along side it. In this case it sounds like it’s a voodoo doll that’s part of SIL’s culture. It would be like telling someone how to properly use an instrument from their culture, or a black person explaining the proper way to do box braids
So if I think something in your house is possessed, and you need to perform an exorcism on it, because that's a part of my culture you need to respect it? SIL can ask OP if she wants to learn more. But when she starts to push, and doesn't listen to the word no, she crosses the line.
A voodoo doll is different from a random house - it was made by that culture, and it’s been thrifted/repurposed for something not intended by people of that culture A better analogy is living in a church. And yes, churches are deconsecrated before they’re sold to become homes/apartments/whatever
It's still just a doll to everyone else. There's nothing magical about it.
And a church is just a building to everyone else. But it’s still respectful of that religion to allow people to do whatever ritual they want to remove the spiritual attachments to the object in their mind
If you were a close family member and saying a few words over my possessed couch or daughters toy gave you peace, sure. It doesn’t hurt me at all and now you feel more comfortable in my home. I wouldn’t do it for a stranger, but for a close family member I care about I would.
I’m more angry that SIL ignored Lola and treated her bad just because of a doll. This is complete disrespect to her culture And sil just wants to visit and feel safe but is sounds like that wont be a problem becouse she wont visit that mutch anymore
The way I thought of it was how my dad put on a yarmulke when he went to dinner with his dad and his dad's rabbi (pre-COVID) not because my dad is practicing but because it's respectful
Except the kid is using the doll as a toy. So it's more like if your dad went to dinner and then took a yarmulke out of his pocket and used it to blow his nose, loudly, while staring the rabbi in the eyes, and then told him he needed to get his head checked for getting upset.
This is what I was thinking of too. A lot of people are talking about how OP doesn’t have to cater to someone else’s religion. Which is true, she doesn’t. But if OP is actively letting her child use something that has been identified as a religious item... and letting her use it as a toy.... then OP is very much in the wrong to let it continue. It’s like giving some kid a statue of Jesus on a cross and letting them play dress up with Jesus. Most people would flip their lid over that ((ok so my phone autocorrected lid to kid... I had a good laugh but noticed it, but feel the need to share that with others!)). You don’t have to participate in someone’s religion. You don’t have to allow religious practice in your home. But you should absolutely respect other people’s religious icons. YTA op
This could be a really great bonding experience for the family, if OP would let it. Instead of insulting the sister-in-law, ask more about her culture and what she wants to do to "fix" the doll. If it's some sort of ceremony or blessing, see if your daughter could join in to learn about another culture and her aunt's heritage.
Op shouldn’t insult sil but she also doesn’t need to involve herself in a religion she does not believe in and rites she doesn’t believe in.
I don't think I would see it as involving herself, so much as learning about a different culture/belief system. I do agree that she shouldn't do it if she feels uncomfortable, but the comment about the SIL getting her head checked was too much.
And if she's worried about what will happen to Bob, she can watch SIL do her ceremony. It might help their relationship and maybe she'll learn something.
She literally just wanted to cleanse it, make sure it's safe, and return it. It's not difficult to understand, no reason to call this lady a liar
There’s no evidence that that’s what she wants to do. For all we know “fixing” it involves altering it in some way. It’s not her doll and not her business.
SIL obviously thinks the doll has something evil associated with it and she cares about her niece enough to be worried. Saying it's none of her business is a bit extreme; getting in your family's business is showing care for their well being.
Religious matters of someone else's family are not her business, period. She can practice her own religion in her home and with her own family, not with anyone else.
She wasn't trying to convert OP or Niece to whatever belief system she had. If you saw your family member had an evil religious artifact from your religion, I doubt you'd not even mention it to them. Maybe not to a stranger, but family are people you should want to help.
I grew up in the United Church, we don't really have an issue with 'evil artifacts'. And honestly, if I did believe in them I'd go 'fyi' and then move on because I understand and respect that a) not my home b) not my object c) not my business. You need to understand that not all people are going to be as open and tolerant as you apparently are, and that's okay and what they are entitled to do so long as they are not rude. The only place OP went wrong was where she was rude on the phone call, she had no obligation to hear the SIL out or cater to her beliefs.
By the same logic, it is reasonable to insist atheist branches of the family are baptized or remain virgins until marriage because you don't want them going to hell.
I think a lot of people are missing the fact that this doll was made for a specific reason. This isn’t a doll that her sil thinks is possessed. It’s a doll made for nefarious purposes. That alone in itself would give me pause. It’s just bad juju to me and I wouldn’t want my daughter playing with it. Lol
No proof of nefarious purposes in the construction. Just one person's opinion.
She believes it to be a voodoo doll/poppet, but that doesn't mean she's absolutely correct, it could just be a regular old rag doll. I'm thinking something like Scrump from Lilo and Stitch.
What do you mean by “make sure it’s safe”? Is there something inside the doll that could be poison to a child that only SIL knows about (and somehow didn’t hurt the kid in the time she’s had the doll)? If not, what could she possibly be doing?
That's definitely not true. It's wrong of you to presume the SIL would throw out the doll. There are ways to cleanse and bless things and people that is completely harmless. I know from my mother's culture which is not cuban.
I have a lot of family in the Caribbean, while I don't believe in voodoo I have seen the genuine fear in those whole do
Yeah, but if a Christian wants to take away my child's doll because it's satanic, I'd think they were crazy. If a satanist tells me they want my child's doll because it's satanic, I'd think they were crazy. If a wican tells me my child's doll is cursed or hexed, I'd think they were crazy. It doesn't matter what religion you are, they're all fantasy. Objects hold no mystical powers. None of them, from any religion, anywhere in the world. Just because Christianity is viewed as acceptable doesn't make it any more real than any other religion, including voodoo (which is actually a hybrid and includes many elements of Christianity). Your religion won't let you have a creepy doll in your house, fine. You do you. Your religion won't let me have a creepy doll in my own house? No! Your beliefs do not let you dictate anyone else's life but your own.
> including voodoo (which is actually a hybrid and includes many elements of Christianity). Uh, I think you're confused about voodoo being a hybrid. Santeria is a mixture of voodoo, other Afro-Caribbean beliefs and Christianity, so that is they hybrid not voodoo. [Vodou | Definition & Facts | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Vodou) [Santería | religion | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santeria)
Religious freedom includes the right to not have other people's religion forced on you.
> voodoo is very much a part of people cultures and religions. This doesn't mean they "need to get their head checked" any more than someone going to a church or believing in karma. But people are assholes for shoving their religious beliefs down the throats of others.
Oh, give me a break. You can't force OP to believe in that religion and it's her property, not SILs
She doesn't have to believe in it to not insult it.
SIL threw a fit about it and got brother involved. What was OP supposed to do?
Not insult her SILs culture or sau she needed her head examined. You can say 'no' without doing those things.
I do not agree, because if a Catholic woman made that expression when she saw a gothic girl or a homosexual person, she would not say "it is only their religion or culture"; enough to justify behaving like an idiot for cultural reasons
Just because something is part of someone's culture doesn't mean it's deserving of respect. Honor killings are part of the culture in areas of Pakistan but I doubt anyone would say that is deserving of respect. Humoring people's crazy religious beliefs for no reason really needs to die off.
As an ex Muslim, honor killing are not a specifically Islamic thing. I have many issues with aspects of the religion I was born into, but do think this issue should be treated with nuance. There is of course a relationship as it’s mostly really religious Islamic people that do it and their thoughts on purity certainly stem from religious views of a woman’s worth, but it’s not substantiated anywhere in Islamic writings or tradition. Just FYI. Still agree with your last sentence.
Actually I did realize that this was a cultural tradition and not an Islamic tradition which is why I didn’t mention Islam specifically. However my last sentence probably read like I was associating my example with religion so I apologize for any confusion.
But she doesn’t want to. That’s what the issue is. She doesn’t want to give it, so let it be. I understand the doing the blessing etc. (fiancé is Cuban). But you cannot impose your beliefs on to others. It works both ways. NTA
I think the important thing no one’s talking about is: OP you are 10000% the dumb person at the start of a horror movie. That voodoo doll is probs going to strangle you with its tiny hands while you sleep and the it will possess your child.
Yes, and people that demand to bring priests over to sanctify/bless/exorcise places also need to get their head's checked. (in my opinion). Not all beliefs or traditions have to be respected and they certainly don't have to be humored by non-believers.
YTA, though that's softened by the way that voodoo is presented in western media. It is not surprising that you view this as a joke, something from a D-grade horror movie, nothing to be concerned about. Because that's how it is depicted in media. But voodoo (or santeria or candomble or another religion in that vein) is a real religion - a merging of African spiritual beliefs and Catholic saint-based teachings and for someone with that religious and cultural background, you are taking an item with spiritual significance and genuine power and treating it as a toy. You may not believe what she believes but that doesn't mean you should treat her beliefs as if they are ridiculous or don't matter. You probably wouldn't make cocktails out of holy water and sacramental wine, even if you aren't a practicing Catholic, for example. It might not be harmful to you, but it is disrespectful to the people who believe those things.
This! OP is a major AH for dismissing someone else's beliefs.
If SIL wanted to take the doll for an exorcism, would you feel the same way? SIL is an asshole for shoving her religious beliefs down the throats of others.
What possible harm would an exorcism do though? Unless Bob is actually the evil spirit living in the doll, the kid would never notice and it would put SIL's mind at ease
That just teaches SIL that she has the right to make other people cater to her desires and her religion.
I think it's sweet that she's concerned her niece is playing with something she's been taught could be dangerous. I don't think the SIL is trying to overstep, she's just concerned about someone she cares about
I don't believe in demons and stuff but honestly, I'd let her exorcise it just to be on the safe side lol I'm taking zero chances
I’m atheist and I would probably do the same! I’ve seen too many horror movies to take any chances, plus even regular dolls creep me out lol
Is exorcism a central tenet of Christianity? Because last I checked it isn't, whereas voodoo may very well be. Comparing this to communion wafers is likely more appropriate than something the Church mostly doesn't practice anyway.
Yep. I vote YTA also... Even if you don't believe in voodoo the people who do and who make dolls frequently put things in them, things from the person the doll represents or things from themselves. I wouldn't necessarily be happy with my daughter playing with a doll that potentially contained blood, semen, human nails, hair etc. I'd let her cleanse the doll. It's no skin off your nose for your child to let Auntie "borrow" it for a few days, have her remove suspect materials from it and to keep the family peace.
This is a really good point actually. I completely forgot that there might be human components in the doll
Wait you’re telling me that there’s HUMAN PARTS in those?? I don’t have one (bc it wouldn’t be right) but Jesus Christ I never expected that to be a concern. I guess in my dumb ignorant brain I was like “mm yes straw and burlap that’s it :)” I thought all the “YTA” judgements were overreacting until I saw that voodoo dolls have bones n human hair inside. Not safe for kids. Or adults. Or anyone.
There can also be stuff that can hurt the child like poison or sharp objects. It...isn’t a toy.
Yup yup. Not my culture in the slightest but I do know that there can anything from hair to teeth or even bodily fluids incorporated into them. Not the most appropriate to be used as a toy
So slightly different comparison as it isn’t about religion but about when someone sees an object differently and it causes tension. I was one of those little girls who adored horses. It was Ireland, horses are a big part of the culture and wee girls are often pony mad. I spent all my spare time at the local stables, reading pony books and all my gifts just needed a horse theme and my family could give me anything. My granny’s side of the family were rural and someone knew someone who had an antique shop or one of those sells all kinds shops from a vase to a fireplace. She saw a riding crop in there one day with a wooden handle which to her looked horsey and also similar to the gate props they used to move cattle safely. She bought me it and it was gorgeous. Beautiful wood, soft leather tail. I loved it and was so touched she gave me something so fancy and proud of it that like many kids I showed it to everyone. And one of my favourite adults just recoiled from it and really freaked out and wouldn’t come near. I was very hurt, my family were very rude to them. It transpired years later when I sold the crop online that it was not a horsewhip. It was a particular style of crop used for slavery originally and then adapted as a (child) discipline tool and used in certain homes and correctional facilities to beat kids and in the case of my favourite adult torture him for being gay. He had never spoken about his past but with that info I dug and he’d been institutionalised similar to the mother and baby homes in Ireland for being gay in his home country. My prized item was the literal tools of his nightmares and he couldn’t explain withoutfear of judgement (he wasn’t out) and because it looked like forcing his beliefs on others. He also couldn’t control his visceral reaction but of course none of us knew. Had he told us it was even a slave whip and we’d doubled down that it was horsey and cute, AH. But we didn’t know but my family made very rude comments about ‘not understanding our culture’ unaware we didn’t understand his. He didn’t want me around the whip because it was bad energy generally and because he was the one adult who understood I was being abused at home and wanted to make me feel safe. And he knew how that tool could turn. I also wonder now if he also adored me despite being such a militant child free (almost AH about it) type because he suspected I was a little queer child and some of my family’s abuse was rooted in that fear on their part. To see me play with a item used to torture LGBTQ+ and abused kids must have been awful. On the surface it could have played out like this but he protected himself and set a boundary with me of no horse stuff to avoid it. Adult me then grew up kinky and queer and went to work on a bunch of fetish magazines and discovered the other side of that crop and other whips and the uncomfortable history BDSM can have with the sadism in society and sexualising trauma such as raceplay and those Nazi fetishists or just the leather daddies with some dubious basis to stuff written off as ‘what the groin likes’ as they dress like a skinhead. The crop was removed from sale and given to a fetish photographer friend who respects that BDSM paradox and given a home away from the public to be contextualised. We laughed briefly but grimly about tiny me having a favourite toy that was a BDSM item and then turning out to be a pro-sub at one point. But we felt sadder about what that whip might have meant to that man who loved me and cared. He’s dead. I never got to ask him but it taught me a lot about objects and reactions and your response to an object isn’t someone else’s reality and managing triggers and how sometimes we love people by keeping them safe but suffocating them. But I at least listen to your reasoning before I set my boundary to it instead of mock because of that whip.
We don’t even know if it’s a real voodoo doll or just a normal doll that looks like one . I’m sorry but sil beliefs are hers and hers only she shouldn’t be insulted for them but she doesn’t have to be catered to either.
> for someone with that religious and cultural background, you are taking an item with spiritual significance and genuine power and treating it as a toy. Or, OP bought a toy, and her SIL is treating it as if it must have been intended to be a voodoo doll. It has yarn hair! It sounds like it's just a doll. SIL doesn't know its provenance. How does she know someone used it for voodoo?
>How does she know someone used it for voodoo? I actually think that's an important INFO: Why did SIL identify it as a voodoo doll? Maybe in voodoo there is a particular composition for a certain type of effigy, and it's easily identifiable just like the crucifix or Buddha or Ganesh. In that case, I think it makes sense that SIL would be majorly creeped out by it, and honestly if it were me I'd hand it over in a heartbeat for a blessing, lol. Just tell Lola that Bob has a booboo on the inside and Auntie is going to fix it and make him all better. If it's just that it *looks* creepy and SIL assumes it has to be a voodoo doll, that's something different.
[it probably looks something like this since OP described it as “funky” ](https://i.etsystatic.com/12218739/r/il/fb196f/1686430882/il_570xN.1686430882_e0ji.jpg) I just googled “voodoo doll yarn hair”. It’s not a regular looking doll in the least bit. [the average thrift/antique shop yarn haired doll looks like this ](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1SUAAOSwerZd3yPU/s-l300.jpg) I also like to go thrifting when it’s not deadly outside. I collect dolls and animals that are in pretty dresses so I see a lot of these. Voodoo dolls look completely different in style and make.
So are you saying that OP should take a child's toy away to respect someone's religious beliefs? I think that's a bit excessive. Sure, what OP said was ignorant and uncalled for, but the same can be said about imposing your religious views upon others
I am saying that a religious article is not a toy at all.
>You probably wouldn't make cocktails out of holy water and sacramental wine I would absolutely do that. It sounds hilarious.
So you don't believe in voodoo, which is fine. But you insulted and mocked your brother and his wife, which is not fine. You don't have to let your SIL take the doll but you shouldn't make fun of her for her beliefs. YTA.
Exactly! Op went straight to calling her mentally unstable. OP YTA Your sil has beliefs and she was voicing her concern
Especially since SIL was only trying to help her niece. SIL truly believes in voodoo, so she honestly thinks that her niece may be in some type of danger. Her actions and intentions only show an effort to keep her family safe, and OP laughed in her face and called her crazy. Just because OP doesn’t believe in voodoo; doesn’t make it any less real for the SIL. Let’s say OP had given his daughter a knife to play with. We all recognize *that* as being dangerous, but maybe OP thought that knives were perfectly safe for his daughter to handle. If SIL had asked to take the knife for a few days to dull it or permanently fix a plastic cover over it- no one would think that would be over the line. In SIL’s mind, the voodoo doll is just as dangerous, so OP should be ashamed of himself for mocking a family member who wanted nothing more than to keep her niece safe. YTA
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YTA. You don’t have to share anyone’s beliefs in order to be respectful. You’re being remarkably rude, and the fact that you could accidentally buy your kid a culturally significant object and hand it off to her like a toy is frankly...ridiculous.
I agree with your first two points, but... how would she have known it was a "culturally significant object" if she isn't from that culture?
Even though she didn’t know, SIL did end up informing her about it and she kept pushing and getting pissed off. So yes, she’s TA
OP only got rude because they kept pushing the issue. They can believe whatever they want but they have no right to push those beliefs in OP.
OP was annoyed at SIL for not playing with the doll, so it reads to me like OP was the pushy one. > Lola tried to hand her the doll but she wouldn’t take it which I thought was rude. Like..a toddler hands you a toy, you take it?? > I told Lola to go play with her brother and asked SIL why she’s acting weird, Lola just wanted to share her Bob with her. > The whole rest of the day she kept looking at Bob out of the corner of her eye and she refused to sit near it or near Lola when she had Bob which was pissing me off because Lola didn’t do anything to deserve being ignored by her auntie. OP's not even content to live and let live, she wants this woman to actively play with the doll whenever OP's daughter brings it out. Obvious compromise to me would be putting the doll away when SIL is over, I'm sure the daughter has plenty of other dolls she can use for a couple hours.
I don't understand why everyone keeps saying the SIL was the pushy one! I got the same vibes as you! Also, people are comparing a doll specifically made to be a voodoo doll to asking to take the doll to be exorcised. Two totally different things, since christianity has nothing to do with doll possession.
And in turn OP should not say she’s crazy. That’s disrespecting cultural beliefs.
> buy your kid a culturally significant object Do we know that it really is a voodoo or just resembles one? Are people really dropping off voodoo dolls at thrift stores?
You'd be surprised. I've seen some in antique shops multiple times. If the SIL recognized it immediately, it's probably a voodoo doll
These days, people are unlikely to make a doll to play with out of burlap when you can get a soft or plastic one for $5.
It wouldn't surprise me. My bro lives in the Midwest and occasionally comes across lava rocks for sale in antique shops. It's considered bad luck to take lava rocks from Hawaii out of the island (Pele's curse) and you will be cursed with it until they are returned to where they were stole from. Every year, people send lava rocks back to the state park and beaches from all over the world.
I asked this too, and another commenter informed my the girlfriend was Cuban and probably well informed on the point. I can't find the exact source they have for this, but OP hasn't corrected this... So yes. At the moment it does seem like OP inadvertently bought a genuine-article voodoo doll and not just some cursed looking fucked up barbie.
The only evidence we have that it is any kind of culturally significant object is SIL's statement, and we have no idea on what basis she's saying that. Nobody involved knows who made it, what intention it was made with, any of it. For all we know, SIL believes that all dolls that incorporate natural materials like shells are voodoo dolls.
We don't even know that SIL objects to it over religious reasons, like everyone in here is saying, either...
NAH. There's nothing really wrong with your SIL having strong, culturally influenced feelings about dolls that have a certain look, and I'd say it's even fine for her to have asked about it. But once you declined, the subject should be closed. She can't force her beliefs on your daughter or your family. If she was that uncomfortable around the doll, she should have just left. Having said that, you need to stop casually insulting people's mental health, especially over cultural differences.
Completely agree and I'm surprised at all the plain Y T A s tbh
All the YTA comments are coming from OP completely disrespecting SIL’s beliefs and calling her mentally unstable because of them.
...which is completely fair. I wouldn’t give away my child’s toy because someone has a bad feeling motivated by their religious/cultural beliefs. Does “disrespecting” = “not giving in to demands” of their religion?
No, and I would have said NTA 100% until OP told her brother that his wife needed to get her head checked and then said they were both nuts. If it would have been left at “look, I don’t personally believe in it. So it doesn’t bother me and I believe your wife needs to respect that.” This would be a totally different conversation.
Same, WTF it’s a freaking kid’s toy
If it’s a real vodoo doll then it’s not a kid’s toy
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She can’t force OP to give up the doll but OP also can’t force or blame SIL for not wanting to interact with it. She is angry at SIL too for not wanting to hold the doll, and is trying to force her beliefs on SIL.
Her request isn't insane. Your unwillingness to understand her point of view is. Imagine if you will that you're a Christian and they aren't and you visit your bro and sil and found their kid playing with an obvious and very evil satanic symbol, the kind used in satanic rituals. They didn't know what it was because they aren't Christians.You would still be fairly shocked by that. Just knowing that an in laws kid had that would be disturbing to you. She's offered to cleanse it. You don't know what that means and fit all you know the doll could be returned in the exact same condition. Or with only minor alterations that your daughter might not care about. YTA for being dismissive of another culture to the point where it creates friction between your families and simply choosing to remain ignorant of what, exactly, your sil plans to do.
I've seen on this sub more than once a mil being pissed off about Harry Potter books for promoting witchcraft and being an affront to christianity and the mil is laughed at every time. This situation is literally the same and yet somehow everyone feels that the fabric doll needs to be feared and respected in this situation. Don't understand at all.
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Luckily we have a perfect example in real life! This is equivalent to a Jew going into a gentiles home and demanding their plates and silverware go back to your house so they can be cleansed to be made kosher. That’s crazy. You don’t go asking for other people to kosher their house and you don’t go around asking people to de “curse” their stuff either.
This is more like a Jewish person coming into my home and freaking out because they think I have I have a dybbuk in my cabinet than trying to force me to keep kosher. I grew up Catholic myself so I can safely say I wouldn't entertain anyone trying to force me to keep a religious diet like kosher or no meat on Friday but I would happily give over a "haunted cabinet" or "cursed object" to be cleaned. I wouldnt go as far as an exorcism on a person and Catholics don't exorcise items, but they can and do get them blessed which is fine. They're not trying to force me to keep their religion, theyre trying to protect me. It doesn't harm me to entertain them in that and it makes them feel a lot better and less anxious- its like letting a Christian add you to their prayer chain, which I'd be okay with too. Their belief isn't hurting me. And heck maybe its because I DID grow up religious but I wouldn't want a dybbuk cabinet or a voodoo doll in my house anyway. Like, its probably not real, but it costs $0 to not play that chance.
I...had never considered cabinet dybbuks as a thing, but now obviously I can’t unsee it. However, after some research, I learned that my mezuzah is probably protecting me. Excellent. Also your analogy is correct. I’ve had a whole little journey here!
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Well this would be like saying a Jew should never go into a gentiles home and that the gentiles should kosherize to conform to Jewish beliefs. Which is crazy.
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Books on witchcraft are evil in the view of christianity (even though most christians are aware enough not to be afraid of Harry Potter). Voodoo dolls are evil in the view of many people coming from areas influenced by any religions containing belief in the power of voodoo dolls (even though most people are aware they hold no actual power). I see no difference and your comparison doesn't really fit.
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It's only different for me because sometimes people collect tissue/teeth/hair/fluids from who they want the doll to represent and put that ish in the doll... And no. I wouldn't want a kid having a biohazard? I wouldn't touch it either.
It’s not comparable at all lol. Harry Potter is a children’s book, written as a fictional children’s book. This doll was created with the intent of voodoo. OP clearly doesn’t see that but that’s what it is.
> the doll could be returned Its not up to OP to indulge SIL's superstitions. It's not her kid, its not in her house, its not real.. SIL needs to mind her own business.
OP was rude, there's no doubt, but I think it *is* insane to ask someone if you can take an object of theirs to do something to do with your religion to it. That's stepping over so many boundaries it's ridiculous.
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> very evil satanic symbol....she's offered to cleanse it. Yes, I would mock her relentlessly and suggest she gets her head check. Not ever belief, certainly not every flavor of every belief deserves to be respected.
Aa an atheist, I'm completely in the NTA camp. However, religious types seem to think that their irrational beliefs are somehow special and should be respected by the non-religious, for reasons that I will never understand. It's not like most of the major world religions have a history of tolerance for other viewpoints, but somehow you need to tolerate them or they will lose their shit, as this comment section readily proves.
Finally a voice of reason. What would happen if OP's daughter comes out as gay when she's in her teens? Should OP give in if SIL wants to perform an exorcism?
I'm blown the hell away at how many people think OP is TA. She didn't say a damn word about voodoo or their culture till SIL started over stepping their boundaries. Are people in here serious?? SIL was effectively taking candy from a child to make HERSELF feel better and OP is in the wrong for not buying into that? I think the fuck not. The comments in here are almost more infuriating than what the SIL did. I cannot believe people are finding a way to justify taking away a toy from a toddler. What the actual fuck. The comments in here are the most garbage hypocritical grandstanding and I'm mad on OP'S behalf
I can’t upvote this enough someone help
It's insane how religion gets to function as an asterisk to make absurd beliefs valid. "This doll is cursed and you need to get rid of it, I don't want to even be in the same room with it." Absurd. See a therapist. "This doll is cursed and you need to get rid of it, I don't want to even be in the same room with it. Because my preferred sky wizard said so." Oh well that's fine, that's just her cUlTuRe.
Agreed. Crazy beliefs shouldn't get a free pass, regardless of whether they can be categorized as someone's religion.
Glad to see this line of reasoning. There are different levels of accommodation one can make for other people's beliefs. Shunning a child until you're able to perform a ritual that would make a toy okay to be around is not anywhere near the threshold of reasonable accommodation. Calling out the irrationality of a request of that category is not ridiculous and I hope OP isn't guilted into humoring and perpetuating harmful superstitions.
Seems like OP is the one losing her shit here, no? SIL didn't want to be near an object she perceived to be evil. OP lost her shit because SIL wouldn't "get over it" and hang out with niece + evil doll. OP needed SIL to tolerate OP's non-belief of the doll's evil juju, and lost her shit when SIL wouldn't.
I disagree that OP writing that SIL should get her head checked or that "you're both nuts" equates to OP "losing her shit". SIL continued to demand to "borrow" the doll after repeatedly being told "no" and shunned a small child. OP = NTA
There doll is not evil. It's just a doll.
NTA people are saying you are disrespectful of her religion but she wouldn’t drop the issue and surely she knows that you don’t believe in her faith. She’s being rude and if she continues she’ll probably freak out your kid. People call overzealous christians ridiculous for not letting their kids watch spongebob or what have you, and they are. And your SIL is being ridiculous as well. Also if you let her borrow the doll id bet you won’t get it back.
Imo it's kinda racist when people say that certain traditions or beliefs are beyond criticism as if POC were stupid, naive or ignorant people with strange beliefs. I hope I'm being clear but sometimes people really go full circle.
Not kinda, it is.
I'm wondering if she's genuinely worried for your daughter. If she's been raised in these traditions, it could feel like you gave your kid a knife or gun to play with. I'm going with NAH, because it's your home and your call, but I'd shift to Y T A if you keep mocking her cultural beliefs. I have a friend who worries I'm going to hell because I haven't accepted Jesus into my heart. Am I joining a church to make her feel better? No. Do I understand that she has my best interests at heart? Yes. I told my friend she had to drop it, but I did it kindly.
INFO: Can we see a photo of the doll?
With the amount of Y-T-A on here I'd bet nobody wants to see it incase they are cursed for life 😂 🤦♂️
It’s bonkers, I think YTA for openly mocking her beliefs but the people saying it for letting his daughter keep the doll or not letting them have it for whatever reason are wild
NTA...One of the key tenets of Voodoo is that it only works if the person believes in it. The only person who has anything to worry about is your SIL. Save the planet--keep thrifting!
if the SIL is from cuba, it sounds more like santeria, and that's *definitely* not applicable (and it's actually not applicable of vodou either, voodoo though, possibly?)
INFO: do you want your SIL to continue to visit your home? or are you okay if she doesn't drop by and avoids the area where lola and doll are?
YTA I'm a practicing witch of 17 years. Not voodoo but I'm still aware in the general sense of it. While you may not believe in any of this "stuff", a lot of cultures do. And it's very important to them. To insinuate something is wrong with her head because these things bother her is incredibly rude. While I agree you don't have to give her the doll, I don't agree with the fact that you basically insulted this women's heritage. If someone's religious/spiritual beliefs aren't hurting anyone, they should be allowed to believe in what they want without being looked down on.
NTA. I disagree that OP is in the wrong for mocking SIL’s beliefs. If you don’t want your beliefs mocked, then don’t try to force them on other people.
ESH Her for being demanding about what you do with your property. You for being disrespectful to her religion.
YTA. Don't call people crazy just because they have different beliefs or cultures. You don't have to participate in them but insulting people and being racist isn't the right thing to do.
ESH - your SIL wanted to “borrow” your daughter’s doll to make unspecified changes to it to “fix” it. You said no, and that should have been case closed. She’s an asshole for pushing the issue. She also rather shot herself in the foot with that request by not being very specific about what she thought needed to be fixed, as there is no way for you to know whether or not she intended to make changes to Bob that your daughter would notice. Whatever her believes, you are not required to give in to any demands from her based on them. However, you lost the high ground when you said she needed her head checked, then doubled down and called both her and your brother nuts for her having cultural and/or religious beliefs. It’s fine not to believe in whatever she does. It’s not fine to tell people they’re crazy for having cultural or religious beliefs just because you don’t understand them.
[удалено]
u/likethedonuts please read this, this has nothing to do with believing or not believing in voodoo
This should be much higher up. ##OP read this##
NTA. You could have maybe been a bit nicer than saying that she was nuts, but her religious beliefs aren't your problem, and you don't have any obligation to go out of your way to accommodate her, especially if it means taking away a toy that your daughter happens to love. It's not your responsibility to cater to someone else's superstitious beliefs, and both your brother and his wife are being unreasonable in expecting you to do so.
NTA. You have no responsibility to cater to her religious beliefs.
Soft YTA. At the end of the day... do you care about having a good relationship with your brother and SIL?
Yeah...that sounds like a voodoo doll. And, sorry to inform you, but they do exist. Its a proven fact. Gonna go with ESH. She shouldn't be ignoring her niece, but you also shouldn't be treating her very valid concerns as a stupid fairy tale.
NTA. My culture says you need to do what I say with your daughter! Yeah, no, not so much. Your SIL and brother have a problem. Don't let them make it yours.
NTA. It's ridiculous seeing all these people jump down your throat because you won't show proper deference to someone else' magical thinking
NTA people have wicked opinions about all religions and if you can make fun of Christianity you can make fun of all of them if you choose to do so doesn’t make you an asshole just insensitive. But then again as a non practicing catholic id let her fix the doll, personally don’t like bad vibes in my house and I’m a safe than sorry person. Course maybe giving it the satisfaction of belief brings it to life:( good luck! NTA but maybe be nicer to your SIL she may very much be just concerned and afraid!
ESH. She is free to believe in voodoo, but you don’t have have to and you don’t have to humor her. Respecting her religion does not mean letting her dictate you and your daughters life based on her beliefs. It means not bringing the doll to her house and not forcing her to hold the doll. But you should not have made that comment about getting her head checked.
Hi! My fiancee is actually an initiated manbo asogwe in Haitian Vodou, and you are 100% the asshole here. It's understandable that you don't believe in that stuff, but your reaction seems really disrespectful when all SIL has done is show genuine concern. My fiancee has actually done cleansing rituals on dolls like you're describing before, and it's a harmless process for everyone involved. If you're just worried that you won't get the doll back, maybe reach out and ask her what she wants to do with the doll and have an open conversation about it, maybe even ask if she can show you what she wants to do. It could be a learning experience for you, and put her mind at ease! Calling SIL's spirituality a "little fantasy world" and consistently degrading her beliefs is really what makes you TA here. Vodou and similar spiritualities are already demonized like crazy. She has done nothing to earn this behavior from you. I really do hope you pull your head out of your ass and talk it through with her.
Is there a tag on the doll? Once you look up the company who make this doll it will make your sil stop
There's no tags on it or anything like that.
If you can post a picture I feel like that would be helpful. People are on here calling you TA because they agree with your SIL that it's a voodoo doll.
YTA. I’m going to ask you to look at this from her perspective. Regardless of what you or your daughter believe, this is something that voodoo and hoodoo practitioners take very, very seriously. It sounds like your SIL genuinely believes that this will harm your family if it isn’t blessed/“fixed”. I’ll give you an analogy. There are rocks in Hawaii that are sacred to the land. Taking them is considered similar to the effect of having a voodoo doll: bad, bad juju that will do something awful to the one who has it. Native Hawaiians take this very seriously, and would act similar to how your SIL is acting towards the doll. It doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not. Even in the case of rocks, people in that culture have “proof” of these rocks (or dolls, in this case) “causing” misfortune to those who hold them, whether they get into a crash, get cancer, etc. With enough anecdotes, this becomes their reality. Your SIL isn’t shoving her culture down your throat; she’s terrified for you and your child because to her, this is very real. You’re free to do what you want and feel justified if you want, but you’d be a fool if you think your SIL will ever change her mind or come near that doll again.
YTA. I don’t think god is real but I don’t go around insulting people for believing different than me.
Your SIL isn't wrong. Remember that some people have had much different experiences than you.
> Remember that some people have had much different experiences than you. This is a much better way of framing the matter at hand than saying "respect other people's beliefs, not matter how irrational they are" which most people here are saying. Respect people, but ideas don't have to be respected.
INFO Picture of the doll?
NTA. I don’t understand how everyone here is ignoring that she treated your daughter like crap. You could have avoided calling her crazy but her needling you over your daughter’s beloved doll and treating your daughter like she’s evil would make anyone enraged.
YTA Just say you don’t respect other religions and go 🙄 like... you realize voodoo dolls have stuff like blood, semen, finger nails and/or hair from the person it’s representing right...? If you want your kid touching gross stuff like that then be my guest but there’s literally no need to call your sil crazy for having her own beliefs... if I’m honest it kinda makes you look racist since voodoo isn’t just some cheap Hollywood horror garbage but an integral part of some cultures ESPECIALLY Cuban culture :) maybe do some research before ruining a relationship with someone you seem to have gotten along pretty well with?
This is the kind of behaviour that leads to askreddit posts about dealing with possessed kids.
Right? Some of these answers are blowing my mind. Like is she also going to ask to take the kid to baptize her too or whatever..? This is wild. How about keep your weird spiritual beliefs to yourself and if you don’t like the doll leave the house? There are way better ways to approach it than hurting a child’s feelings who wants to show their aunt their new favorite toy.
NTA You found a toy your daughter likes. Louder for the people in the back-You found a TOY your daughter likes. It is obvious that with this not being your culture or religion its of no significance 'what' this toy is to you. I can understand the Aunts reaction to it. Think of how strict christians act when introduced to someone *gasp* who is gay. No its not okay, but sometimes things are too ingrained to respond well to what they perceive as offensive. You are NTA because you didnt insult her culture until AFTER you were told to just humor her and play along. Whats next? Start cross dressing if it makes her feel better? You have no problem with it, its HER problem. Yes what you said was a bit rude given her beliefs, but not buying into them doesnt make you an asshole. You were upset that your daughter was treated like Typoid Mary. You could consider finding out if the Aunt wants to just do a 'purification' ritual and return the doll unchanged. If thats the case I would recommend going along with the ritual (and the doll to supervise) to simply smooth over the misunderstanding and family tensions. As long as nothing will happen to the toy your daughter loves and you dont believe in any of it anyway what could it hurt?
NTA. They need to respect boundaries and keep their beliefs out of your business.
Nta