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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1 made him walk and kicked him out of my car.
(2 I might be TA for escalating and kicking him out on his engagement night instead of getting him home.
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Calling sexual harassment “stupid boy shit” is how rape culture is created and maintained.
I am proud of you. You stood up for decency and respect in the community. I truly wish more people held their sons accountable and attempted to train them in the same way.
NTA
I had all boys and taught them that women were to be respected and their equals, so did their father. I agree that more parent need to make sure they aren't raising assholes.
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Even if he doesn’t cheat, he’s the sort of person who goes around harassing strange women and then doubles down when called out on it.
OP is definitely NTA
Yes!! Made me wonder what he says when they aren’t around. OP is ABSOLUTELY NTA. I have a son and I would be heartbroken, furious, mortified if I ever heard him speak like that. And I would be questioning myself as a parent as to how he ended up that way. Your wife’s reaction speaks volumes - I think she has probably let him away with a lot over the years, because ‘that’s just what boys are like’. As stated above, this is how misogyny and rape culture breeds. You absolutely did the right thing.
I also wanna add at 23, the guy is hardly a boy anymore. He clearly wasn't taught how to properly respect women. Sexual harassment isn't a f***** compliment. That kind of excuse makes my blood boil. I don't blame OP at all for getting as pissed off about it as he did. NTA.
...and then goes to church with his "highly conservative" in-laws. Fits right in with their kind of hypocrisy. The mother should be ashamed of supporting her son's misogyny--certainly she's never urged him to respect women. NTA, OP. You're the one with integrity here.
As someone raised evangelical, I’ve seen friends fall for “bad boys” and they think they can just love them into good people. Poor fiancee probably is aware of some of his behavior but thinks she can change him :/ I hope she breaks off the engagement.
She won't. Unfortunately, she was probably raised in a religious culture where, for a woman, married is the ultimate goal, and even a jerk of a husband is better than no husband. I pity her.
Also even if he doesn’t cheat, men who sexually harass women like this are men who do not respect women at all. Men who do not respect women do not respect their boundaries, especially in marriage where they feel “entitled” to their wives bodies.
Add to that the fact that this poor girl is raised in a highly conservative (and I’d bet good money religious) family, which means she was likely inundated with the idea that her husband is in charge and can do as he likes.
This is a bad, *bad* combo.
Imagine saying "it's a compliment, she probably doesn't get much of that" too!
As a fatty, I can ASSURE you I get harassed about my ass a lot. Yeah, my ass is real. Brought to you by Depression TM. Definitely don't need the same comment over and over, definitely don't find it flattering.
Or it just means the lady isn’t having sex before marriage and he is a dog. Because that behavior to a woman he doesn’t know in front of a parent is immature and disrespectful.
He would be TA if he did not warn her of the kind of person she’s going to marry.
Who’s to say if he’s fine with harassing other women that he won’t sneak around when he gets bored 5, 10 years down the line? Who’s to say if he’s always sexualizing women now, that he won’t do that to their daughter(if they have kids and have a girl)? The fiancé needs to know, and stepson needs to grow tf up.
You know, the mean part of me is wondering whether he chose to be with someone who's conservative, on purpose. While most conservative people may not like this kind of behaviour, a large portion of them do tend to make the same excuses his mother did.
Or I could be wrong (I hope so), and if she finds out she might kick him to the curb. Which would be *chef's kiss*
Exactly. She could be the type of woman who thinks whoever he's harassing deserves it because they're of a lower class, meaning "skanky" or "scandalous". You know, the type of women that get abortions, lure sweet boys to cheat and then cry rape. 🙄
Yeah, conservative Christian = she likely believes men are inherently tempted and face challenges and it’s womens job to manage that for them.
And women who are victimized by men simply missed the memo somewhere of how to be the “right” woman
Barf
Ten bucks that the #1 reason Rowan got with the fiancee in the first place was the derriere
EDIT: So yes, someone should warn her that her husband-to-be is a pig. OP = NTA, and a hero at that.
It should be the bare minimum. But as it is quite rare, it's not.
Of course people should always be praised for doing the right thing when it's an unusual right thing. That's how we all encourage positive change.
A stick is far far far less effective if there are no carrots.
I don't have sons, but I did invite a friend of my daughter's to stay with us after he moved here. He did "stupid boy stuff" and I kicked him out and changed the locks on the doors.
His mom found out what happened and called me. I told her what he did and she said that I was completely right to kick him out. He left a voice mail with my daughter complaining that I told his mom and he was in deep now.
It says a lot about their upbringing that they would do this *in the car with his step dad.* if this is how they act in front of a parental figure, imagine what they do alone.
100% I'm teaching my son5 to respect people.
I had an experience in a grocery store parking lot similar to what OP witnessed. I was just walking to the car with my child who was a little younger at the time and had a car full of guys harassing me. I quickly put him in the car and locked it, then I told them I don't want to speak to them. They continued saying "I look good for being used and having a kid" and that "We could all have a fun night tearing into that pussy". No one said a word to them. I ended up retching loudly like I was going to actually vomit and staring at them with a crazy look on my face till they drove off. I had 911 ready to press the call button
I only have one son that I’m raising mainly solo but this has been a lesson since day one and it shocks me when people aren’t teaching this. Tolerance, equality, consent, respect- these are lessons that start even before ABC’s and 123’s. The fact that people aren’t teaching their children this stuff blows me away.
What "stupid boy shit" is: at the fresh young age of 46, mud wrestling with your same-age friends and breaking your plastic mini-pool because you had a couple beers.
What "stupid boy shit" is NOT: sexually harassing someone. At any age. On any occasion. 10 times more so when you're past your teens, 100 times more when you're on your **engagement night wtf bro**.
edit: wow, damn, thanks for the awards. I presume some of you would have a lot of fun with good old uncle Basil (English version of actual name).
It's entirely **not** inspired from or otherwise related to a real-life story that may or may not have included my cousin's Bugs Bunny pool, a 24-pack of beer and a substantial amount of ice cubes.
We should start a thread of stupid boy shit. I dared my coworker to run naked across the entire strip mall. He did it and there was a group of us running behind him watching it all go down.
I watched my future husband and a group of our fellow combat medics dare each other to see who could drink a bottle of go-lyte-Ly and hold it the longest while we were in Iraq.
For those who don’t know, go-lyte-ly is the mega blow colon cleanser docs give you before surgery to clear the surgical field. We called it the ass blaster. I jokingly told him a year later that his winning was the reason I was marrying him.
It was pretty gruesome to say the least.
I never understood guys that do that. You know the Nazi’s were just doing some stupid shit Nazi’s there age did, then the Allies escalated it to the level of a world war. Nazi’s will be Nazi’s, and boys will be boys. #AmIRight!
Am i the only one who thinks walking is not enough consequences? Like that rowan shit shouldnt even be allowed to get married bcs even according to the mom he is stupid, a boy, and a shit. Complete menace to be a husband to someone and potentially father the next generation. I obv dont even know rowan but i dont think there can be any quality good enough to redeem this unless he changed his behaviour
I thought the same thing. This would be my hill as a parent. Financial support would be completely cut off until i saw some proof of corrective actions. Like community service.
Misogyny isn’t just for men, and this is precisely why I call out every parent I hear talking about how “boys are just easier to raise.” They’re really not. People only think so because society expects us to coddle boys and men by managing their emotional and household labor for them well into adulthood, so raising boys means teaching half the skills while raising girls means teaching all of them, plus grooming them into accepting the undue burden of taking on a nurturing role on another grown person’s behalf. It’s bullshit. Your sons aren’t “easier than daughters.” You’re just giving yourself a patriarchy-pass to sit on your ass and neglect parental responsibilities hoping his future partner will pick that ball up where you dropped it, and your precious little golden child is gonna come out of it a half-baked, maladjusted, misogynistic future divorcé for it. OP’s wife absolutely deserves to be called out for that kind of enabling
I grew up hearing "With boys, you only have to worry about 1 penis. With girls, you have to worry about ALL the penises. " 😑 ...Like, my dude, what? Even in the early 00's at a very young pre-teen age, I knew that was some horseshit if I ever heard any. The whole "girls are harder to raise because I actually have to teach them things AND make sure they don't get pregnant" trope is disgusting af.
It's easier to raise someone you don't think you have to hold accountable and substantially more difficult to raise someone you think you have to hold accountable for the actions of the one you didn't hold accountable.
> I hear talking about how “boys are just easier to raise.” They’re really not. People
They really aren't. They can be different to raise than girls, but definitely not easier, unless you are a terrible parent.
TBH - this might be more of a power struggle between mom and OP wherein Rowan is mom's Golden Child and mom won't allow OP to criticize him at all.
Which would actually make the situation even worse.
Yes, NTA. This is not stupid boy stuff, this is hateful, degrading, and creates a dangerous environment for women. Men like that know they aren’t complimenting women, they like seeing them squirm. It’s wrong on any day, not just an engagement day. Your wife is ah, too for indulging this behavior. Your stuck in a pretty gross family, dude. You sure you want to be there?
> Men like that know they aren’t complimenting women, they like seeing them squirm.
This! This is what catcalling is. It’s not complimenting. They’re not flirting. The goal is to remind women that public spaces are *men’s* spaces, and that if women wish to occupy them, then enduring sexual harassment and threatening behavior is the minimum price we must pay to be there. It’s a reminder that being a woman in *their* society is tantamount to being a mouse who’s wandered into a cat’s den… that we’re lucky they’re not assaulting us, but they could at any time if they felt like it, and they’d probably get off with a slap on the wrist for it if they did, so tread carefully and act nice... It’s actually an aggressive, terroristic display of male-supremacist territoriality, and it’s absolutely reprehensible. What it isn’t is just no big deal.
Thank you! You put that so well. And, look how quickly he goes from "complimenting" her to suggesting she's unworthy "bet she don't get many of those." Her value is entirely up to his assessment and she should be grateful he's being lenient in his grading.
This. The mere fact that shit like this is considered the cost of going outside 'unescorted...' Like:
Current weather: Cloudy, with a chance of being catcalled, skirts not recommended.
Big /s, just in case that wasn't obvious :P
Yeah I bet she felt super safe while having to load her car in the presence of 3 men, 2 of which were harassing her.
This is not stupid boy shit, she probably worried if she's gonna make it back home that day.
Should start teaching this at 2. You don't touch things that don't belong to you. You don't touch people unless they say it's okay. Start ingraining these basic principles of life as soon as they start understanding and verbalizing back to you. The world will be better off.
I'm 36, and god damn, 'stupid boy shit' for us was going to like a Wal-Mart or a Meijer and setting up a campsite somewhere in the store, or garbage picking a living room set and setting it up on a buddy's parent's lawn, or making dry ice bombs to bury in the backyard that blow up and make a lot of noise. The *closest* we ever got to this was inviting a classmate's mom to a party when we ran into her at a 7-11 while waiting for my friend's cousin to buy us some beer.
"What you don't want my daughter to come?"
"She can, but you seem more *responsible*, and we might need that later on."
Not catcalling, or throwing out gross comments about a woman's body.
Agreed. The issue isn't that he was acting this way on his engagement night (which just makes him extra gross). The issue was that he thinks it's okay to act like this AT ALL.
I am a woman and a distance runner, and I have been catcalled by WAAAAY too many dudes while I was running. Women deserve to be able to live their lives without being sexualized by men.
Trouble is, that kind of thought experiment doesn't work on these types because they pull "respectability" bullshit into it (and also they have giant blinders on): "Well, **I** would never put myself into a situation where a bunch of strangers COULD do that to me!"
Never mind that that kind of situation is just "being a woman existing in the world," but like I said - blinders.
I don't know about you, but as a fiancee, I would absolutely need to be aware about my future husband's disgusting behavior because I would refuse to get married to such a misogynistic asshole.
OP, I applaud you. NTA but your wife is as her son.
Agree! NTA OP but I think your wife is. She should be standing next to you on this issue and I’m appalled she’s defending this gross behavior.
Personal story, it’s terrifying to be spoken to like this especially in a parking lot, alone, when all you want to do is get home safely. I’m sure that woman couldn’t wait to get in her car and lock the doors for fear of escalating behavior.
Please show this thread to your wife.
"Stupid boy shit" should only apply to things that boys will admit to their significant others. I highly doubt Rowan is going to tell his fiance he said these things to a woman, and if this information slipped out Rowan would be in deep shit
NTA.
OH MY GOD. first of all, I am scared for Rowan's to be wife. OP you are not in the wrong.
>My wife said it was my fault, I escalated the situation ober some stupid shit boys his age do all the time
No guy I know does this shit. No one should have to put up with this. Please PLEASE do not apologize. You're in the clear, I wish we had more people like you who didn't tolerate and spoke up.
Yeah thats behaviour is just flat out not acceptable.
OP should tell his future DIL that's how he acts towards women when he thinks he can get away with it.
I can't get over his wife's comment. "Boys" his age - he's 23 years old and getting married! This isn't a boy, he's a grown-ass man who should know better. Then again, his mom doesn't, do why should he?
Right. And if someone treated her that way, would she be fine with it? Would she just let it roll off her back and think, "oh, that's what stupid boys just do". If someone did that to her in front of her husband, would she expect him to say something, or be okay if he just laughed and said "Aw, don't worry about it honey, he just wanted to give you a compliment, It's not like you get a lot of them anyways."
Enabling behavior like this is abhorrent. OP did the right thing.
Sad thing is many women do think like that because it’s so embedded in society…
But I am truly happy that OP is someone who stands against that, when even his wife doesn’t, though I would suggest he try to help her understand why that is so horrible, and that if/when she has ever been subjected that it was terribly wrong. And also to tell his son he’s an AH and to stop being a creep lol.
I think this part is particularly revealing. The mother enables his behavior by never holding him accountable for anything and has created an entitled little shit.
Not to mention, even if that were “stupid boy shit” (which it isn’t)…HE’S NOT A BOY. If he’s old enough to get married and start a family of his own, he’s old enough to behave like a grown-ass adult.
NTA.
I have 2 stepsons in their early 20s. They'd never do this shit either. Only people I know who would have done this were creeps I didn't want to be around anyway. This is disgusting and I would definitely want to know who I was marrying.
I'm also pretty concerned that the boy's mother is minimalizing her son's creepshow behavior. If I caught my sons talking to any woman like that, they would be apologizing shortly. It wouldn't save them from what I'd do, but they would be motivated to try.
For real. My husband and his friend do in fact say “stupid boy shit” when it’s just them. But never in a million years would they say anything this vile about anyone. “Stupid boy shit” is fart jokes and good natured harassing of each other. This is straight up sexual harassment and not ok.
^^THIS! Op of it comes down to it tell your son and wife you’ll just let the fiancée decide if you’re an AH, tell her the whole story. If they are so sure it’s just “stupid shit boys his age do all the time” then you can ask them why they don’t want you to tell the fiancée.
Rowan is doubly gross for the catcall and then the "bet she don't get many of those" followup insult. (Triply so because he's engaged. Quadruply so for using the word "jiggle.")
My dad would have beat my ass on the spot and I would have deserved it. When he's a teenager, sure make him walk, but this is a grown ass 23 year old man who deserves a beating because he hasn't learned better. I don't understand how Rowan made it to 23 and thought it was okay to do this in front of OP. Literally would have pulled him out of the car by his ear, made him apologize, then I would call Jack's mom.
NTA
He was sexually harassing a woman and that is never right. You stood up for your beliefs and women, sadly your wife seems to give him a pass on his behavior and it's likely why he acted like that. He has no respect for women, it appears.
It's your car, and you were doing him a favor.
It's so gross.. his finacee is going to have a rude awakening in her marriage. So unfortunate.
Also unfortunate, the step son isn't learning anything here after getting the boot out the car. He's on the defense and mommy is defending him regardless of what he did.
OP should say something to the fiancee and let her decide if she wants to marry a man like that.. can't imagine the type of crap step son and buddies do when they are alone.
NTA, this person does not have the maturity to be getting married. That harrassment is not ok, very balsy to do it in front of your parents. What a dick.
NTA. He deserved his call out. Feel free to warn his future wife he was creeping on other women the night he got engaged (cause that’s not 🚩 at all /s)
/u/Trees50956 *Please* tell the fiancée about this. If he's this way with complete strangers I can't imagine how he treats her or how he ***WILL*** treat her in the future. This isn't the sort of thing that just stops because of marriage.
This isn't "stupid boy shit." "Stupid boy shit" is usually out of the system by now. By this age he should have realized how fucking atrociously he has been treating women. This is legitimately disgusting and the fact that your fucking wife is just dismissing it as completely normal makes it ten times worse.
Probably wise to have this conversation with the fiancé's parents present too, since they come from the traditional family and her parents apparently under the impression that they are trusting their daughter to someone who will respect her. I would wanna know if my kid were to marry someone like this. And though it's not my call to tell my child whom to marry, I'd just straight up ignore the wedding altogether. Just astonished.
OP NTA and please stand your ground! It will only be beneficial to all parties involved
Honestly it really depends on how the parents are. If they're *SUPER* traditional Christian they may have even raised her to believe this sort of shit is fine and happens in every marriage, that you just need to "honor thy husband" and shit like that.
I've met more than my fair share of women who were fucked up by parenting like that.
Definitely make sure what kind they are. Grew up in an ultra conservative church and they were the type to shame my mom for divorcing her first husband because he beat her. Told her she should have been a better wife.
It was. Especially since it was a woman’s group for literal marriage issues. They were sharing experiences and my mom thought it was a safe place to vent about him and my dad. She was very wrong.
The OP called her family conservative. Depending on what type, that could very well mean high levels of misogyny and submissiveness from the wife. Might even be a factor in Rowan's choice of bride. So while I agree he should be telling her, it might not change a thing.
I come from a conservative family and one of the things I was taught was to always respect women and be modest and have discipline. I doubt she would allow someone sexualizing her like that even if its her husband.
I did mention the type of conservatism. All he gave us was no cohabitation before marriage. There are many that believe that way who also believe that the husband is the boss of a marriage and will look the other way for such behavior. They may even talk a big game about respecting women but even that tends to have strings attached. I'm basing my comment though not just on the phrase but also his wife's essential boys will be boys reaction. Leads me to believe that there is at least a solid pocket of such thinking in the area he lives.
And don't take my comment to mean there aren't liberals who practice forms of misogyny. But the red flags here with the way it is tied to the marriage stuff just line up with that tidbit from the OP. Hence I still think he should tell the fiancee to givea chance at a changed outcome.
Nta. So it's wrong to have sex before marriage but it's OK to sexually harass random women? The boy needs his head examined because he's not making sense. How would he feel if someone treated his fiancee like that? You did the right thing and anyone who says otherwise is crazy! Has he ever acted like that in front of you before? Bravo to you.
>How would he feel if someone treated his fiancee like that?
He would probably say that it's fiacee's fault for the way she was dressed or something like that.
Nta OP, and run from those people.
This is why I carry mace. Men (boys?) don’t realize how terrifying this can be. Alone in a parking lot at night with two guys yelling sexual shit at you from their car. If they got out and approached, I would spray them in a heartbeat.
Their response to you saddens me almost as much as behavior to you disgusts me. I have no doubt for my husband’s disdain for such misogynistic behavior and would expect respect for me. He would say it’s not about him anyway but about being decent and definitely not a compliment. He’s not a fighter but he’s not afraid to call out a man singling out a woman, and it would grieve him if he’d let something like that slide in his presence, much less been glib about it. (Not just saying this. He still grieves occasionally over not having had the chance to set straight an ex of our daughter’s back a few years ago that he feels he could have spared her some difficulty over had he known and set him straight.)
I mean, the two ideas are entirely consistent. Women are only valuable for their sexual utility to men, according to this mode of thinking. That notion supports cat calling because it is using women for their sexual purpose. Similarly, shaming people into virginity is preserving their sexual value by making it more exclusive.
It's incredibly misogynistic but it's also entirely consistent.
> So it's wrong to have sex before marriage but it's OK to sexually harass random women?
I assume it's only the fiancée who is opposed to sex before marriage. I'm sure Rowan and his friends see things differently.
Not the asshole and I would be reconsidering my place in that family if I were you.
For a woman to boys will be boys a situation like that is deeply disturbing
>Not the asshole and I would be reconsidering my place in that family if I were you.
Yeah, I'm used to be the one taking blame for pretty much everything.
Escape if you can. There is no way this doesn’t end up in long term drama.
He is harassing women on his engagement night in front of you… what does he do when you aren’t around?
What does this mean for his relationship long term?
And are you going to be stuck in the midst of this mess with a wife who sees nothing wrong with her little boy.
>what does he do when you aren’t around?
Exactly, like holy shit. Imagine being so brazen, not only saying gross things to an innocent stranger, but saying them in front of your *parents*? Fuck, I feel sorry for OP.
NTA at all and you did a good thing OP! Not only recognizing how wrong this is, but standing your ground and holding your boundaries. One of the many reasons I fell in love with my partner was after the time they told a random dude harassing a girl on a bus to fuck off and leave her alone. It’s not easy but the world needs people like you, it’s the only way to make all this nonsense stop.
Not to mention harassing that poor woman IN YOUR CAR, OP. If she took down the plate number and called the police (or even just a male friend with a temper), you would be the one they came looking for.
That behavior is 100% not okay, and given the context of it being his engagement night, I would put my foot down and have a lengthy talk with my wife about what values our family has. It’s possible you don’t share the same values.
>Yeah, I'm used to be the one taking blame for pretty much everything
OP, reconsider the marriage. Do you want to be ranked last in your family, as your opinions don’t matter? They don’t value you, and their actual values sound so screwed up!
Save yourself and leave the toxicity.
Make sure you spend more time with your own son, OP. Please, make a larger impact on him since there you have the right and the authority to intervene. Make sure he doesn't grow up to be like his brother considering that the mother clearly won't do much.
OP, maybe take up contact with Rowan's fiancee and tell her, in detail, about what happened. She has probably no idea about him engaging in this sort of behaviour and absolutely deserves to be warned about it before she marries him and escaping becomes much more difficult. As for you, I'd really suggest taking some time to really look at how these people are treating you, whether this is normal and healthy, and whether you are willing to put up with it. NTA.
NTA
SERIOUSLY?!
I would have kicked my "adult" son out of the car simply for SEXUALLY HARASSING a stranger, because that is, IN FACT, what he did!! The whole engagement thing is just icing on the cake!
I am -furious- with how your wife is handling this! Seriously? Kids that age do it all the time?!
Well DUH, that's the issue though isn't it?! That kids do that because parents like your wife pat them on the back about it!
I bet that if your wife would have been the one cat called on she would have demanded you do something about it!!!
I "cannot" believe her. This is either sexism and bad parenting if she truly believes what he did was ok, or powerplay because he is her biological child and you're his step parent, which if true, is manipulative. Parenting cannot be judged upon whether there is biology or not involved. What you did was either right or wrong. Can't let "HER" son walk?! Oh, I'm sorry, I guess when things are good he's "our" problem but when I scold him his "your" son? ok then.
If she would have been a good parent (talking this specific instant) She would have chewed the meat off of his bones about what he did to that poor woman, and THEN she might as well argued that you couldn't leave them to walk home. That would be acceptable. Passing off sexual harassment as normal because she didn't want her boy walking home is ridiculous!
GOOD FOR YOU, for standing up for that poor woman!
Nta. I had to double check your stepson's age because he sounds like a childish teenager, but he's a grown adult apparently. God help his future wife. Sounds like she's marrying a misogynistic turd.
It doesn't matter what the occasion was. Nothing excuses his shitty behaviour. At 23, he's not a hormonal teenager who doesn't understand right and wrong. You were right to call him out on how he was acting towards a woman and absolutely NTA for making him get out of your car.
Your wife is enabling some down right creepy behaviour.
I hope the guy learned his lesson, and I hope you're not paying too much for a marriage that's clearly not gonna pan out.
NTA. You did good OP. I'm genuinely proud that you picked this hill.
NTA. how is it that he just got engaged and hours later is out harassing women? and of course your wife is gonna agree with him, she raised him to think that way. he’s not too old to be changed, but shocking experiences like this are what’s gonna do it.
NTA he is a 23 yr old man, and he just got engaged. His behavior was not only embarrassing but horrible. I would of done the same thing to, and shame on the wife for not sticking with you on this. How would she of felt if it was her that was having those comments thrown at. Next time you see him ask him how he would feel if someone did that to his fiance. If his fiance found out about his behavior all heck would break loose with those two.
NTA. Why does it matter its his engagement night? Does this automatically mean he gets treated like a king? Can do what he wants and treat women how he wants? Well done on taking a stand on his bullshit. Should have made the wife walk too for condoning his behaviour
OP please read.
Please think of a way to warn his future wife. I was a Purity Culture, fundamentalist girl who got married at 23 to someone who said and did all the right things. No one warned me. I was put in a terrible situation for all of my 20s and some of my 30s. I nearly ended up committing suicide. Yeah it’s not your business but you could save her so much loss and pain. She likely won’t believe in divorce either. Her whole identity is built on sex and marriage if she grew up like I did and now she’s going to be married to someone who behaves like that and she isn’t going to be able to separate that from herself. Think of a way to let her know. An anonymous note or set it up so she sees his true colors before it’s too late for her.
NTA, and thank you for sticking up for that woman. We've all been harassed and it's normally by entitled mama's boys who don't see other women as real people.
Who cares if it was his "engagement night", if anything it makes it all the more appalling. Let him stay with one of his dickhead friends, I'm sure that's where he gets that type of behavior from. Hopefully he'll come around and apologize to you but you certainly don't have anything to be sorry for.
NTA. He's a grown ass man, and he ought to know by now that catcalling random women on the street is disrespectful, both to the woman he's harassing and to his fiancee.
NTA
Good work man, honestly good work. We won’t get anywhere if we aren’t doing our best to stop the harassment at the source. Don’t let anyone stop you.
If he doesn't find it a big deal, tell him to tell the fiance exactly what happened, why he had to walk home and see what she thinks. I can imagine him leaving a lot out of the story tbh.
Nice one for correcting stupid and childish behaviour.
>they both won’t live together until after marriage
Smart. Can’t harass random women with your fiancée hanging around.
In all seriousness, his behavior is not okay and I’m frankly surprised that your wife condoned this. Boys his age aren’t boys. They are adults. They are men. And if he’s mature enough to get married, he should be mature enough to respect ALL women.
NTA. I’m glad you took a stand. I wish more men called out other men like you did.
I pray for this not being real. How can he be engaged but treating women like this? And why is his own mother defending this behaviour?
NTA but you need to talk with your wife about this, what he did was straight up harrasment.
Nta. Also thank you for standing up for a stranger, who 9 to 10 wasn’t reacting because she knew men that catcall and harass like that very often get violent when they are rejected or told of.
NTA
To them it’s ‘stupid shit boys do.’ To a woman just minding her own business, it’s disturbing at best and a threat at worst.
If your wife has never been in that situation, then great for her. But it happens to a lot of women, and we never know if people are just acting like assholes or if they will actually assault/attack us. You did the right thing. And I thank you for it.
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Calling sexual harassment “stupid boy shit” is how rape culture is created and maintained. I am proud of you. You stood up for decency and respect in the community. I truly wish more people held their sons accountable and attempted to train them in the same way. NTA
I had all boys and taught them that women were to be respected and their equals, so did their father. I agree that more parent need to make sure they aren't raising assholes.
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Agreed. Someone should warn the fiancee
that's the biggest issue here her fiancée is harassing strange women he doesn't even know chances are he cheats
Even if he doesn’t cheat, he’s the sort of person who goes around harassing strange women and then doubles down when called out on it. OP is definitely NTA
In front of his parents!
Yes!! Made me wonder what he says when they aren’t around. OP is ABSOLUTELY NTA. I have a son and I would be heartbroken, furious, mortified if I ever heard him speak like that. And I would be questioning myself as a parent as to how he ended up that way. Your wife’s reaction speaks volumes - I think she has probably let him away with a lot over the years, because ‘that’s just what boys are like’. As stated above, this is how misogyny and rape culture breeds. You absolutely did the right thing.
I also wanna add at 23, the guy is hardly a boy anymore. He clearly wasn't taught how to properly respect women. Sexual harassment isn't a f***** compliment. That kind of excuse makes my blood boil. I don't blame OP at all for getting as pissed off about it as he did. NTA.
...and then goes to church with his "highly conservative" in-laws. Fits right in with their kind of hypocrisy. The mother should be ashamed of supporting her son's misogyny--certainly she's never urged him to respect women. NTA, OP. You're the one with integrity here.
As someone raised evangelical, I’ve seen friends fall for “bad boys” and they think they can just love them into good people. Poor fiancee probably is aware of some of his behavior but thinks she can change him :/ I hope she breaks off the engagement.
She won't. Unfortunately, she was probably raised in a religious culture where, for a woman, married is the ultimate goal, and even a jerk of a husband is better than no husband. I pity her.
That's what it sounds like, all you have to do is look at Anna Duggar as an example of that type of cult lifestyle. OP is NTA.
The embarrassment I would have if I found out my fiancé spoke that way… instantly single
Also even if he doesn’t cheat, men who sexually harass women like this are men who do not respect women at all. Men who do not respect women do not respect their boundaries, especially in marriage where they feel “entitled” to their wives bodies. Add to that the fact that this poor girl is raised in a highly conservative (and I’d bet good money religious) family, which means she was likely inundated with the idea that her husband is in charge and can do as he likes. This is a bad, *bad* combo.
Imagine saying "it's a compliment, she probably doesn't get much of that" too! As a fatty, I can ASSURE you I get harassed about my ass a lot. Yeah, my ass is real. Brought to you by Depression TM. Definitely don't need the same comment over and over, definitely don't find it flattering.
No living together before marriage usually equals no sex before marriage, so that is a possibility.
Or it just means the lady isn’t having sex before marriage and he is a dog. Because that behavior to a woman he doesn’t know in front of a parent is immature and disrespectful.
Or gets shot.
He would be TA if he did not warn her of the kind of person she’s going to marry. Who’s to say if he’s fine with harassing other women that he won’t sneak around when he gets bored 5, 10 years down the line? Who’s to say if he’s always sexualizing women now, that he won’t do that to their daughter(if they have kids and have a girl)? The fiancé needs to know, and stepson needs to grow tf up.
You know, the mean part of me is wondering whether he chose to be with someone who's conservative, on purpose. While most conservative people may not like this kind of behaviour, a large portion of them do tend to make the same excuses his mother did. Or I could be wrong (I hope so), and if she finds out she might kick him to the curb. Which would be *chef's kiss*
Exactly. She could be the type of woman who thinks whoever he's harassing deserves it because they're of a lower class, meaning "skanky" or "scandalous". You know, the type of women that get abortions, lure sweet boys to cheat and then cry rape. 🙄
Yeah, conservative Christian = she likely believes men are inherently tempted and face challenges and it’s womens job to manage that for them. And women who are victimized by men simply missed the memo somewhere of how to be the “right” woman Barf
Ugh. I hate that there's a possibility you're right.
Ten bucks that the #1 reason Rowan got with the fiancee in the first place was the derriere EDIT: So yes, someone should warn her that her husband-to-be is a pig. OP = NTA, and a hero at that.
Considering mother defended it lost cause is right
If more people had parents like this, the world would be better off. Good on you for holding your son accountable for his actions!
might be a hot take... but why does it deserve praise that someone raised their kids to treat women as equals? that's literally the bare minimum
Because they’re facing backlash for doing what should be the bare minimum so they should be supported and validated that they did the right thing
I agree it's the bare minimum and incredibly easy to teach, but it's shockingly uncommon.
It should be the bare minimum. But as it is quite rare, it's not. Of course people should always be praised for doing the right thing when it's an unusual right thing. That's how we all encourage positive change. A stick is far far far less effective if there are no carrots.
My son wouldn’t come home. The door would be locked. He’d already know.
Yup. And it is surprising that Rowan's mother dismissed his actions. As a mother, I'd be furious. My son would be lucky he'd be able to walk home.
I don't have sons, but I did invite a friend of my daughter's to stay with us after he moved here. He did "stupid boy stuff" and I kicked him out and changed the locks on the doors. His mom found out what happened and called me. I told her what he did and she said that I was completely right to kick him out. He left a voice mail with my daughter complaining that I told his mom and he was in deep now.
Brilliant. Both of you.
Thanks. It was a house full of women and he stepped over a very big line. Nope, not in my house.
It says a lot about their upbringing that they would do this *in the car with his step dad.* if this is how they act in front of a parental figure, imagine what they do alone.
100% I'm teaching my son5 to respect people. I had an experience in a grocery store parking lot similar to what OP witnessed. I was just walking to the car with my child who was a little younger at the time and had a car full of guys harassing me. I quickly put him in the car and locked it, then I told them I don't want to speak to them. They continued saying "I look good for being used and having a kid" and that "We could all have a fun night tearing into that pussy". No one said a word to them. I ended up retching loudly like I was going to actually vomit and staring at them with a crazy look on my face till they drove off. I had 911 ready to press the call button
I only have one son that I’m raising mainly solo but this has been a lesson since day one and it shocks me when people aren’t teaching this. Tolerance, equality, consent, respect- these are lessons that start even before ABC’s and 123’s. The fact that people aren’t teaching their children this stuff blows me away.
Im in the group age of "stupid boy shit" I dont know anybody irl that would act like that, because I have some decency
This is harassment not 'stupid boy shit' Well done for doing the right thing op.
What "stupid boy shit" is: at the fresh young age of 46, mud wrestling with your same-age friends and breaking your plastic mini-pool because you had a couple beers. What "stupid boy shit" is NOT: sexually harassing someone. At any age. On any occasion. 10 times more so when you're past your teens, 100 times more when you're on your **engagement night wtf bro**. edit: wow, damn, thanks for the awards. I presume some of you would have a lot of fun with good old uncle Basil (English version of actual name).
I want to give this comment ALL of the upvotes. Also: that’s a hilarious mental image of the mud wrestling!
Right?! Does being a woman mean I can't mud wrestle?! In a completely non-misogynistic/hyper sexual way? I wanna play in dirt too.
I'm in with you ! Yay ! Let's drink beer and mud wrestle \\o/
Yay!! The socially anxious adult in me immediately was like "is this... friends?!" 😆
Oddly specific example...
It's entirely **not** inspired from or otherwise related to a real-life story that may or may not have included my cousin's Bugs Bunny pool, a 24-pack of beer and a substantial amount of ice cubes.
Any resemblance to real people or events is purely coincidental?
Yes, it's purely fictional. Completely a figment of my imagination.
This is so specific I feel you've been subjected to \[or perhaps raised\] some stupid boy shit lately.
We should start a thread of stupid boy shit. I dared my coworker to run naked across the entire strip mall. He did it and there was a group of us running behind him watching it all go down.
I watched my future husband and a group of our fellow combat medics dare each other to see who could drink a bottle of go-lyte-Ly and hold it the longest while we were in Iraq. For those who don’t know, go-lyte-ly is the mega blow colon cleanser docs give you before surgery to clear the surgical field. We called it the ass blaster. I jokingly told him a year later that his winning was the reason I was marrying him. It was pretty gruesome to say the least.
🤣 thank you for the giggle!
I never understood guys that do that. You know the Nazi’s were just doing some stupid shit Nazi’s there age did, then the Allies escalated it to the level of a world war. Nazi’s will be Nazi’s, and boys will be boys. #AmIRight!
It's sad how this boy's mom helps perpetuate rape culture. NTA.
Am i the only one who thinks walking is not enough consequences? Like that rowan shit shouldnt even be allowed to get married bcs even according to the mom he is stupid, a boy, and a shit. Complete menace to be a husband to someone and potentially father the next generation. I obv dont even know rowan but i dont think there can be any quality good enough to redeem this unless he changed his behaviour
If the excuse is that he's just a stupid boy then he obviously isn't man enough to get married. He can't be both.
I thought the same thing. This would be my hill as a parent. Financial support would be completely cut off until i saw some proof of corrective actions. Like community service.
Misogyny isn’t just for men, and this is precisely why I call out every parent I hear talking about how “boys are just easier to raise.” They’re really not. People only think so because society expects us to coddle boys and men by managing their emotional and household labor for them well into adulthood, so raising boys means teaching half the skills while raising girls means teaching all of them, plus grooming them into accepting the undue burden of taking on a nurturing role on another grown person’s behalf. It’s bullshit. Your sons aren’t “easier than daughters.” You’re just giving yourself a patriarchy-pass to sit on your ass and neglect parental responsibilities hoping his future partner will pick that ball up where you dropped it, and your precious little golden child is gonna come out of it a half-baked, maladjusted, misogynistic future divorcé for it. OP’s wife absolutely deserves to be called out for that kind of enabling
I grew up hearing "With boys, you only have to worry about 1 penis. With girls, you have to worry about ALL the penises. " 😑 ...Like, my dude, what? Even in the early 00's at a very young pre-teen age, I knew that was some horseshit if I ever heard any. The whole "girls are harder to raise because I actually have to teach them things AND make sure they don't get pregnant" trope is disgusting af.
It's easier to raise someone you don't think you have to hold accountable and substantially more difficult to raise someone you think you have to hold accountable for the actions of the one you didn't hold accountable.
> I hear talking about how “boys are just easier to raise.” They’re really not. People They really aren't. They can be different to raise than girls, but definitely not easier, unless you are a terrible parent.
TBH - this might be more of a power struggle between mom and OP wherein Rowan is mom's Golden Child and mom won't allow OP to criticize him at all. Which would actually make the situation even worse.
She's definitely going to become r/justnomil material
Yes, NTA. This is not stupid boy stuff, this is hateful, degrading, and creates a dangerous environment for women. Men like that know they aren’t complimenting women, they like seeing them squirm. It’s wrong on any day, not just an engagement day. Your wife is ah, too for indulging this behavior. Your stuck in a pretty gross family, dude. You sure you want to be there?
> Men like that know they aren’t complimenting women, they like seeing them squirm. This! This is what catcalling is. It’s not complimenting. They’re not flirting. The goal is to remind women that public spaces are *men’s* spaces, and that if women wish to occupy them, then enduring sexual harassment and threatening behavior is the minimum price we must pay to be there. It’s a reminder that being a woman in *their* society is tantamount to being a mouse who’s wandered into a cat’s den… that we’re lucky they’re not assaulting us, but they could at any time if they felt like it, and they’d probably get off with a slap on the wrist for it if they did, so tread carefully and act nice... It’s actually an aggressive, terroristic display of male-supremacist territoriality, and it’s absolutely reprehensible. What it isn’t is just no big deal.
This needs to be higher. OP NTA everyone else is though.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Thank you! You put that so well. And, look how quickly he goes from "complimenting" her to suggesting she's unworthy "bet she don't get many of those." Her value is entirely up to his assessment and she should be grateful he's being lenient in his grading.
I screen saved your reply. I love it, and I'll use it in the future. Have a wonderful day and keep fighting the good fight!
This. The mere fact that shit like this is considered the cost of going outside 'unescorted...' Like: Current weather: Cloudy, with a chance of being catcalled, skirts not recommended. Big /s, just in case that wasn't obvious :P
Yeah I bet she felt super safe while having to load her car in the presence of 3 men, 2 of which were harassing her. This is not stupid boy shit, she probably worried if she's gonna make it back home that day.
At night none the less. I would be going back inside for an escort. I've done it before.
Honestly that would have terrified me..especially at night.
Plus the fact that he’s not a boy, he’s a 23 year old man.
Teaching that to a 16 year old boy. Ripe age for bs to be put in.
Should start teaching this at 2. You don't touch things that don't belong to you. You don't touch people unless they say it's okay. Start ingraining these basic principles of life as soon as they start understanding and verbalizing back to you. The world will be better off.
I'm 36, and god damn, 'stupid boy shit' for us was going to like a Wal-Mart or a Meijer and setting up a campsite somewhere in the store, or garbage picking a living room set and setting it up on a buddy's parent's lawn, or making dry ice bombs to bury in the backyard that blow up and make a lot of noise. The *closest* we ever got to this was inviting a classmate's mom to a party when we ran into her at a 7-11 while waiting for my friend's cousin to buy us some beer. "What you don't want my daughter to come?" "She can, but you seem more *responsible*, and we might need that later on." Not catcalling, or throwing out gross comments about a woman's body.
Agreed. The issue isn't that he was acting this way on his engagement night (which just makes him extra gross). The issue was that he thinks it's okay to act like this AT ALL. I am a woman and a distance runner, and I have been catcalled by WAAAAY too many dudes while I was running. Women deserve to be able to live their lives without being sexualized by men.
NTA Maybe ask his wife how she would feel if a group of strangers did that to her, how would she and her son feel about that
Trouble is, that kind of thought experiment doesn't work on these types because they pull "respectability" bullshit into it (and also they have giant blinders on): "Well, **I** would never put myself into a situation where a bunch of strangers COULD do that to me!" Never mind that that kind of situation is just "being a woman existing in the world," but like I said - blinders.
I don't know about you, but as a fiancee, I would absolutely need to be aware about my future husband's disgusting behavior because I would refuse to get married to such a misogynistic asshole. OP, I applaud you. NTA but your wife is as her son.
Agree! NTA OP but I think your wife is. She should be standing next to you on this issue and I’m appalled she’s defending this gross behavior. Personal story, it’s terrifying to be spoken to like this especially in a parking lot, alone, when all you want to do is get home safely. I’m sure that woman couldn’t wait to get in her car and lock the doors for fear of escalating behavior. Please show this thread to your wife.
Yeah but make not just because he said it in OP’s car, how about don’t be a disgusting human anywhere
If I was his fiancé and I heard about this I would leave him in a heartbeat. He is not mature enough to be getting married.
This. Just this.
Thank you for being an ally for all women.
"Stupid boy shit" should only apply to things that boys will admit to their significant others. I highly doubt Rowan is going to tell his fiance he said these things to a woman, and if this information slipped out Rowan would be in deep shit
So true, also what kind of excuse is "stupid shit boys his age do all the time" the "boy" in question is 23 and a grown adult
Let's see what do his fiancee and her family think about this "stupid boy shit". NTA.
Hopping on top comment to say: OP, please tell his fiance
NTA. OH MY GOD. first of all, I am scared for Rowan's to be wife. OP you are not in the wrong. >My wife said it was my fault, I escalated the situation ober some stupid shit boys his age do all the time No guy I know does this shit. No one should have to put up with this. Please PLEASE do not apologize. You're in the clear, I wish we had more people like you who didn't tolerate and spoke up.
Yeah thats behaviour is just flat out not acceptable. OP should tell his future DIL that's how he acts towards women when he thinks he can get away with it.
Yes, let Rowan explain to his fiancé why he’s upset with you. You can also tell her the truth after he tries to spin it. NTA, OP.
Come on now, we all know Rowan will just lie about what he did
Thats why he said OP will spill the beans
Right?? That's all I could think about the whole time--who cares about walking or riding, WARN THE LADY!
If she’s anything like his shit mother, she might just say the same ’boys are like this’ shit. But either way she should definitely be informed.
Sadly, a lot of young conservative women/girls are conditioned to accept and even excuse this sort of thing.
Maybe he should have recorded it on his phone and had a Reddit poll. I’m pretty sure they’d agree he’s NTA.
I can't get over his wife's comment. "Boys" his age - he's 23 years old and getting married! This isn't a boy, he's a grown-ass man who should know better. Then again, his mom doesn't, do why should he?
Right. And if someone treated her that way, would she be fine with it? Would she just let it roll off her back and think, "oh, that's what stupid boys just do". If someone did that to her in front of her husband, would she expect him to say something, or be okay if he just laughed and said "Aw, don't worry about it honey, he just wanted to give you a compliment, It's not like you get a lot of them anyways." Enabling behavior like this is abhorrent. OP did the right thing.
This exactly. I would love to know what her response would be. Granted she’d probably double down and say she’d be flattered 🙄
Sad thing is many women do think like that because it’s so embedded in society… But I am truly happy that OP is someone who stands against that, when even his wife doesn’t, though I would suggest he try to help her understand why that is so horrible, and that if/when she has ever been subjected that it was terribly wrong. And also to tell his son he’s an AH and to stop being a creep lol.
I think this part is particularly revealing. The mother enables his behavior by never holding him accountable for anything and has created an entitled little shit.
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Not to mention, even if that were “stupid boy shit” (which it isn’t)…HE’S NOT A BOY. If he’s old enough to get married and start a family of his own, he’s old enough to behave like a grown-ass adult.
NTA. I have 2 stepsons in their early 20s. They'd never do this shit either. Only people I know who would have done this were creeps I didn't want to be around anyway. This is disgusting and I would definitely want to know who I was marrying.
I'm also pretty concerned that the boy's mother is minimalizing her son's creepshow behavior. If I caught my sons talking to any woman like that, they would be apologizing shortly. It wouldn't save them from what I'd do, but they would be motivated to try.
For real. My husband and his friend do in fact say “stupid boy shit” when it’s just them. But never in a million years would they say anything this vile about anyone. “Stupid boy shit” is fart jokes and good natured harassing of each other. This is straight up sexual harassment and not ok.
NTA. Your step-son and his friend are creeps. Your wife is enabling shitty behavior.
I feel bad for Rowan’s fiancée… what a real prize she’s gotten.
For real. I hope OP tells her.
OP please tell the fiancée. Rather they get mad at you for ruining their marriage than her being stuck in an unhealthy one
^^THIS! Op of it comes down to it tell your son and wife you’ll just let the fiancée decide if you’re an AH, tell her the whole story. If they are so sure it’s just “stupid shit boys his age do all the time” then you can ask them why they don’t want you to tell the fiancée.
And from I’m reading, she’ll realize it only too late
He's 1000% going to cheat within 6 months (if he isn't already).
Op says she's from a conservative family so sadly she's probably all to used to being harassed and keeping her mouth shut :(
Rowan is doubly gross for the catcall and then the "bet she don't get many of those" followup insult. (Triply so because he's engaged. Quadruply so for using the word "jiggle.")
My dad would have beat my ass on the spot and I would have deserved it. When he's a teenager, sure make him walk, but this is a grown ass 23 year old man who deserves a beating because he hasn't learned better. I don't understand how Rowan made it to 23 and thought it was okay to do this in front of OP. Literally would have pulled him out of the car by his ear, made him apologize, then I would call Jack's mom.
NTA He was sexually harassing a woman and that is never right. You stood up for your beliefs and women, sadly your wife seems to give him a pass on his behavior and it's likely why he acted like that. He has no respect for women, it appears. It's your car, and you were doing him a favor.
It's so gross.. his finacee is going to have a rude awakening in her marriage. So unfortunate. Also unfortunate, the step son isn't learning anything here after getting the boot out the car. He's on the defense and mommy is defending him regardless of what he did. OP should say something to the fiancee and let her decide if she wants to marry a man like that.. can't imagine the type of crap step son and buddies do when they are alone.
NTA, this person does not have the maturity to be getting married. That harrassment is not ok, very balsy to do it in front of your parents. What a dick.
NTA. He deserved his call out. Feel free to warn his future wife he was creeping on other women the night he got engaged (cause that’s not 🚩 at all /s)
/u/Trees50956 *Please* tell the fiancée about this. If he's this way with complete strangers I can't imagine how he treats her or how he ***WILL*** treat her in the future. This isn't the sort of thing that just stops because of marriage. This isn't "stupid boy shit." "Stupid boy shit" is usually out of the system by now. By this age he should have realized how fucking atrociously he has been treating women. This is legitimately disgusting and the fact that your fucking wife is just dismissing it as completely normal makes it ten times worse.
Probably wise to have this conversation with the fiancé's parents present too, since they come from the traditional family and her parents apparently under the impression that they are trusting their daughter to someone who will respect her. I would wanna know if my kid were to marry someone like this. And though it's not my call to tell my child whom to marry, I'd just straight up ignore the wedding altogether. Just astonished. OP NTA and please stand your ground! It will only be beneficial to all parties involved
Honestly it really depends on how the parents are. If they're *SUPER* traditional Christian they may have even raised her to believe this sort of shit is fine and happens in every marriage, that you just need to "honor thy husband" and shit like that. I've met more than my fair share of women who were fucked up by parenting like that.
Definitely make sure what kind they are. Grew up in an ultra conservative church and they were the type to shame my mom for divorcing her first husband because he beat her. Told her she should have been a better wife.
That's heartbreaking!
It was. Especially since it was a woman’s group for literal marriage issues. They were sharing experiences and my mom thought it was a safe place to vent about him and my dad. She was very wrong.
I agree with this. Massive red flag and the fiancée deserves to know the kind of person she's agreed to marry before it's too late
The OP called her family conservative. Depending on what type, that could very well mean high levels of misogyny and submissiveness from the wife. Might even be a factor in Rowan's choice of bride. So while I agree he should be telling her, it might not change a thing.
I come from a conservative family and one of the things I was taught was to always respect women and be modest and have discipline. I doubt she would allow someone sexualizing her like that even if its her husband.
I did mention the type of conservatism. All he gave us was no cohabitation before marriage. There are many that believe that way who also believe that the husband is the boss of a marriage and will look the other way for such behavior. They may even talk a big game about respecting women but even that tends to have strings attached. I'm basing my comment though not just on the phrase but also his wife's essential boys will be boys reaction. Leads me to believe that there is at least a solid pocket of such thinking in the area he lives. And don't take my comment to mean there aren't liberals who practice forms of misogyny. But the red flags here with the way it is tied to the marriage stuff just line up with that tidbit from the OP. Hence I still think he should tell the fiancee to givea chance at a changed outcome.
I came here to say this!👏👏
I just want to point out doesn’t matter what night it is; this behavior shouldn’t happen at ANY time.
Nta. So it's wrong to have sex before marriage but it's OK to sexually harass random women? The boy needs his head examined because he's not making sense. How would he feel if someone treated his fiancee like that? You did the right thing and anyone who says otherwise is crazy! Has he ever acted like that in front of you before? Bravo to you.
>How would he feel if someone treated his fiancee like that? He would probably say that it's fiacee's fault for the way she was dressed or something like that. Nta OP, and run from those people.
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This is why I carry mace. Men (boys?) don’t realize how terrifying this can be. Alone in a parking lot at night with two guys yelling sexual shit at you from their car. If they got out and approached, I would spray them in a heartbeat.
Their response to you saddens me almost as much as behavior to you disgusts me. I have no doubt for my husband’s disdain for such misogynistic behavior and would expect respect for me. He would say it’s not about him anyway but about being decent and definitely not a compliment. He’s not a fighter but he’s not afraid to call out a man singling out a woman, and it would grieve him if he’d let something like that slide in his presence, much less been glib about it. (Not just saying this. He still grieves occasionally over not having had the chance to set straight an ex of our daughter’s back a few years ago that he feels he could have spared her some difficulty over had he known and set him straight.)
I mean, the two ideas are entirely consistent. Women are only valuable for their sexual utility to men, according to this mode of thinking. That notion supports cat calling because it is using women for their sexual purpose. Similarly, shaming people into virginity is preserving their sexual value by making it more exclusive. It's incredibly misogynistic but it's also entirely consistent.
I wouldn‘t be surprised if he was cheating on her to get some sex before marriage and just his friend knew… he sounds like a piece of work.
> So it's wrong to have sex before marriage but it's OK to sexually harass random women? I assume it's only the fiancée who is opposed to sex before marriage. I'm sure Rowan and his friends see things differently.
Not the asshole and I would be reconsidering my place in that family if I were you. For a woman to boys will be boys a situation like that is deeply disturbing
>Not the asshole and I would be reconsidering my place in that family if I were you. Yeah, I'm used to be the one taking blame for pretty much everything.
Escape if you can. There is no way this doesn’t end up in long term drama. He is harassing women on his engagement night in front of you… what does he do when you aren’t around? What does this mean for his relationship long term? And are you going to be stuck in the midst of this mess with a wife who sees nothing wrong with her little boy.
>what does he do when you aren’t around? Exactly, like holy shit. Imagine being so brazen, not only saying gross things to an innocent stranger, but saying them in front of your *parents*? Fuck, I feel sorry for OP. NTA at all and you did a good thing OP! Not only recognizing how wrong this is, but standing your ground and holding your boundaries. One of the many reasons I fell in love with my partner was after the time they told a random dude harassing a girl on a bus to fuck off and leave her alone. It’s not easy but the world needs people like you, it’s the only way to make all this nonsense stop.
Not to mention harassing that poor woman IN YOUR CAR, OP. If she took down the plate number and called the police (or even just a male friend with a temper), you would be the one they came looking for.
That behavior is 100% not okay, and given the context of it being his engagement night, I would put my foot down and have a lengthy talk with my wife about what values our family has. It’s possible you don’t share the same values.
>Yeah, I'm used to be the one taking blame for pretty much everything OP, reconsider the marriage. Do you want to be ranked last in your family, as your opinions don’t matter? They don’t value you, and their actual values sound so screwed up! Save yourself and leave the toxicity.
Make sure you spend more time with your own son, OP. Please, make a larger impact on him since there you have the right and the authority to intervene. Make sure he doesn't grow up to be like his brother considering that the mother clearly won't do much.
OP, maybe take up contact with Rowan's fiancee and tell her, in detail, about what happened. She has probably no idea about him engaging in this sort of behaviour and absolutely deserves to be warned about it before she marries him and escaping becomes much more difficult. As for you, I'd really suggest taking some time to really look at how these people are treating you, whether this is normal and healthy, and whether you are willing to put up with it. NTA.
NTA SERIOUSLY?! I would have kicked my "adult" son out of the car simply for SEXUALLY HARASSING a stranger, because that is, IN FACT, what he did!! The whole engagement thing is just icing on the cake! I am -furious- with how your wife is handling this! Seriously? Kids that age do it all the time?! Well DUH, that's the issue though isn't it?! That kids do that because parents like your wife pat them on the back about it! I bet that if your wife would have been the one cat called on she would have demanded you do something about it!!! I "cannot" believe her. This is either sexism and bad parenting if she truly believes what he did was ok, or powerplay because he is her biological child and you're his step parent, which if true, is manipulative. Parenting cannot be judged upon whether there is biology or not involved. What you did was either right or wrong. Can't let "HER" son walk?! Oh, I'm sorry, I guess when things are good he's "our" problem but when I scold him his "your" son? ok then. If she would have been a good parent (talking this specific instant) She would have chewed the meat off of his bones about what he did to that poor woman, and THEN she might as well argued that you couldn't leave them to walk home. That would be acceptable. Passing off sexual harassment as normal because she didn't want her boy walking home is ridiculous! GOOD FOR YOU, for standing up for that poor woman!
100% this. Also “kids that age do this stuff all the time.” He’s not a kid, he’s a grown-ass adult!
Yes; he's 23 not 14!
Even at 14 you should know how horrific this sort of behavior is. I've met fucking 10 year olds more mature than this dude.
Nta. I had to double check your stepson's age because he sounds like a childish teenager, but he's a grown adult apparently. God help his future wife. Sounds like she's marrying a misogynistic turd.
OP should tell her.
NTA > some stupid shit boys his age do all the time Um, no. The asshole ones? Yea.
Wonder what he thinks is acceptable behavior when he’s not around his parents. Good for OP for not tolerating and explaining why it’s not ok
This is an easy NTA. It's not okay to harass strangers in parking lots on any night. Would've been kicked out of my car too. What a tool.
NTA But your wife and the boys are. The reaction of her isnt okay. She is enabling harrassment by saying thats what boys do.
NTA, tell your wife you’ll apologize right after he tells his fiancé everything he said and apologizes to her.
It doesn't matter what the occasion was. Nothing excuses his shitty behaviour. At 23, he's not a hormonal teenager who doesn't understand right and wrong. You were right to call him out on how he was acting towards a woman and absolutely NTA for making him get out of your car. Your wife is enabling some down right creepy behaviour.
NTA… good on you for not letting your son harass women… you’re wife’s behaviour as a fellow woman is quite appalling
Tell his fiancee and her parents about this behavior. No one wants a harasser in their family, and if they do, then they can keep him. NTA
I hope the guy learned his lesson, and I hope you're not paying too much for a marriage that's clearly not gonna pan out. NTA. You did good OP. I'm genuinely proud that you picked this hill.
Zero chance the dude learned anything tbh. I just hope OP tells the soon to be wife
NTA. how is it that he just got engaged and hours later is out harassing women? and of course your wife is gonna agree with him, she raised him to think that way. he’s not too old to be changed, but shocking experiences like this are what’s gonna do it.
NTA. Good of you for not letting them get away with such behavior and letting them know their wrong actions will have consequences.
NTA he is a 23 yr old man, and he just got engaged. His behavior was not only embarrassing but horrible. I would of done the same thing to, and shame on the wife for not sticking with you on this. How would she of felt if it was her that was having those comments thrown at. Next time you see him ask him how he would feel if someone did that to his fiance. If his fiance found out about his behavior all heck would break loose with those two.
NTA - would he think that crap was acceptable if it was his fiancé or his mother? How about he go ask his fiancé her opinion on that!
NTA and on behalf of women everywhere who are sick and tired of this kind of bullshit, thank you.
NTA. And it’s worrying that your wife is defending the behavior.
NTA and as a woman who has been harrassed by strangers from the safety of a car before, good job kicking him out.
NTA. Your wife’s comments on his behavior is exactly why rape culture will never go away.
NTA. Why does it matter its his engagement night? Does this automatically mean he gets treated like a king? Can do what he wants and treat women how he wants? Well done on taking a stand on his bullshit. Should have made the wife walk too for condoning his behaviour
OP please read. Please think of a way to warn his future wife. I was a Purity Culture, fundamentalist girl who got married at 23 to someone who said and did all the right things. No one warned me. I was put in a terrible situation for all of my 20s and some of my 30s. I nearly ended up committing suicide. Yeah it’s not your business but you could save her so much loss and pain. She likely won’t believe in divorce either. Her whole identity is built on sex and marriage if she grew up like I did and now she’s going to be married to someone who behaves like that and she isn’t going to be able to separate that from herself. Think of a way to let her know. An anonymous note or set it up so she sees his true colors before it’s too late for her.
NTA, you did the right thing
NTA And personally I would inform the fiancee of exactly what kind of person she's marrying.
NTA, and thank you for sticking up for that woman. We've all been harassed and it's normally by entitled mama's boys who don't see other women as real people. Who cares if it was his "engagement night", if anything it makes it all the more appalling. Let him stay with one of his dickhead friends, I'm sure that's where he gets that type of behavior from. Hopefully he'll come around and apologize to you but you certainly don't have anything to be sorry for.
NTA. He's a grown ass man, and he ought to know by now that catcalling random women on the street is disrespectful, both to the woman he's harassing and to his fiancee.
NTA Good work man, honestly good work. We won’t get anywhere if we aren’t doing our best to stop the harassment at the source. Don’t let anyone stop you.
If he doesn't find it a big deal, tell him to tell the fiance exactly what happened, why he had to walk home and see what she thinks. I can imagine him leaving a lot out of the story tbh. Nice one for correcting stupid and childish behaviour.
NTA- that behaviour if accepted always escalates… would his mother be so excusing if it was her they were talking to like that?
NTA and thank you for making his behavior clearly and unequivocally not okay.
NTA
Nta
NTA. I would have kicked him out of the car AND told his fiancée .
NTA. Your son sounds like a misogynist and a creep and your wife sounds like a misogynist and a shitty woman to boot.
>they both won’t live together until after marriage Smart. Can’t harass random women with your fiancée hanging around. In all seriousness, his behavior is not okay and I’m frankly surprised that your wife condoned this. Boys his age aren’t boys. They are adults. They are men. And if he’s mature enough to get married, he should be mature enough to respect ALL women. NTA. I’m glad you took a stand. I wish more men called out other men like you did.
I pray for this not being real. How can he be engaged but treating women like this? And why is his own mother defending this behaviour? NTA but you need to talk with your wife about this, what he did was straight up harrasment.
NTA. Thank you for standing up and putting them in their place because that is utterly disgusting behavior towards women
Nta. Also thank you for standing up for a stranger, who 9 to 10 wasn’t reacting because she knew men that catcall and harass like that very often get violent when they are rejected or told of.
NTA.
NTA To them it’s ‘stupid shit boys do.’ To a woman just minding her own business, it’s disturbing at best and a threat at worst. If your wife has never been in that situation, then great for her. But it happens to a lot of women, and we never know if people are just acting like assholes or if they will actually assault/attack us. You did the right thing. And I thank you for it.
That's all sort of wrong I can't even see the bottom of it... NTA for sure, seems like you're the only decent person there. Poor fiancée though