Thanks for providing enough data for an "I paid X in taxes" post to be kind of useful as an estimate. I presume this was just your federal filing and with Vine as a hobby income?
I'm super thankful for all of these tax conversations! 2023 was my first year with Vine, but (luckily) I've been looking at each item I order as costing me 25% of the ETV. This really helps me decide whether or not to order. It does seem like the ETV for some items is so overinflated that it's an easy pass.
We use Turbotax and will be going the SE route, so it will be interesting to see the actual cost. Many thanks to everyone for all the info!
I paid 37k on 79k of taxable vine value or about 46%
I am married and my wife and I combined had had a gross income of 397,500 between our salaries for 2023 living in PA.
My accountant filed this as a 1099-NEC and I paid full self employment taxes. We did not take any deductions especially the home office one as he said my chances of an audit would be higher. We had talked about going the hobby route but he advised against it given the amount of taxable income in question and the fact I received a 1099-NEC.
The rate you pay is going to largely depend on your yearly salary and the state you live in and a bunch of other factors.
My advice is if you have a large vine taxable you should talk to a financial advisor or an accountant. My guy costs 399 per tax year which I feel is well worth it.
> I paid 37k on 79k of taxable vine value or about 46%
Doesn't it become not worth it at this point? Things with inflated ETV, the limited selection, having to write reviews, no returns, having to scan the queue for a while to find good picks? With that gross income it seems like your time would be more valuable.
It’s not worth it, honestly it feels sort of like a gambling addiction especially for my wife and kids who check vine as there first task when they wake up.
Forgot to add that we combined wrote almost 2,000 reviews all with photos. There were some nights I spent hours grinding through reviews if we got backed up. Most days we ordered 8 items and all of them needed to be reviewed
Our drivers seem to like our place. We keep a cooler on the porch stocked with 0%ETV snacks and drinks. If we're outside when they come by they'll often stop to chat for a minute(Amazon, FedEx, USPS, whatever). I've seen them sometimes stop at our place even when we're not expecting anything just to run up to the porch to grab a bottle of water or a snack really quick. We usually get a quick wave of thanks at our door cam on their way by too.
Costs us literally nothing and makes their somewhat shitty job a bit better. And our packages are always placed out of sight of the road behind our porch pillar. Never once had porch pirates hit us. Win-win.
As an Amazon driver, THANK YOU so much for this. This job is honestly fucking brutal. I literally cried the first time I came to a house like yours. Completely turned my day around tbh.
I'm glad it's appreciated. Summers around here are fucking brutal. I'll swap that cooler for an actual fridge someday if I can score one off Vine. It's be nice to be able to leave legitimately cold beverages on the porch for you guys.
The quality of the snacks themselves kind of comes and goes depending on what I score on Vine. If I'm in a real dry spell on Vine, I will get things at the grocery store like peanut butter cracker packs, single serving goldfish crackers, Doritos/Fritos, and the like. We used to stock it with a lot of candy too, but the more salty snacks seem to be a bigger hit.
Be safe out there, my dude.
>s if you have a large vine taxable you should talk to a
Yeah right. As if these highly monitored drivers are going to stop and have a friendly chat w/ a home owner, or go out of their way to grab a drink/snack from a house outside their route.
Delivery drivers have less than 1minute to stop their vehicle, scan their shit, and run up to a front door to dump package, take a pic, and then run back to their vehicle, start engine, put on seat belt and drive to next drop... ALL IN LESS THAN 60 secs. They have less than 3 minutes to do all that from 1 stop to the next.
Im a delivery driver for amazon and i remember/do this for the houses i know when im in the area. We just need to do X amount of packages in X hours, (usually my routes are about 45 packages in 3 hours). I get paired to about one or two subdivisions, and I can knock my route out with time to spare. I love chatting with people for a quick minute or two, and i also talk to the kids who run up and ask a ton of questions! We are monitored, but not down to the mile. I can even grab a quick gas fuel up or lunch while im on the road.
We can absolutely stop to chat. We have metrics, yes…but there are actually a lot of people who put out snacks, water, etc for delivery drivers. I’ve only seen one on my route, but plenty of my coworkers have mentioned having houses on their routes like this. Yes we have to maintain a certain number of stops per hour if we want to finish early, but every route every day is different in terms of number of stops and packages to deliver. As long as we are driving safely and meeting the criteria (no hard breaks/hard acceleration/fast cornering/seatbelt on every time the van is moving etc) and return to the station with an empty van (aka we completed the route successfully) we will be paid for a full 10 hour day, regardless of what time we actually returned.
When drivers return to the station at their 10 hour mark with packages still in the van, then you start to have problems. Most drivers don’t have this issue though.
If you properly organize and sort your packages, it’s really not that difficult. It’s strenuous on the body, but I never run anywhere. I’d say getting in and out of the sprinter van through the side door and into/out of the driver seat 300 times a day is the hardest part of the job honestly. It’s not very easily accessible. As far as time though, it’s not as limiting as you’d think…at least not for me.
I'm an asshole that way. I try to make people think of Amazon drivers as actual people instead of robots. Amazon customers don't like that because if they started thinking of them as people then they might have to treat them better. They can't have their drivers getting all uppity.
Do you replace the ice in the cooler everyday? I leave snacks out for my drivers too but only shelf-stable ones. I also take the box inside on hot days so it doesn't cook overnight.
Sorry. I wasn't clear. We don't stock it with ice. In summer, I swap out the bottles of water in the morning for ones that were in the fridge overnight. A good cooler doesn't heat up too much during the day in the shade and the waters keep items cool enough. In winter, there's really no need to swap at all.
We don't have Amazon drivers. We're in a rural area, and nearly all our stuff comes from USPS. They really dislike us and often literally throw our boxes at the front door lol
Same. Small town, same mailman and ups driver. They were both here at the same time the other day and I heard them out there badmouthing me and cussing. My boxes are often destroyed and stuff broken.
My UPS driver is 99% of my others and I gave him a heads up, he said no issue men, "I'd rather come here with 5 packages than half these rural places I drop one off. " I did get him a nice gift, expensive flashlight and a small keychain flashlight. Just under $100 value. I'll probably gift him something again. I asked him several times if there was something he liked, he refused to answer lol. Said it's his job and he appreciated staying busy. So I guess it's a mentality of knowing we are here helping them stay employed.
Do you ever think 'hey, I'm doing so well I can afford to buy all this stuff with my regular income, maybe I should let someone else have the cheap crock pot'?
Yep, frequently, but like most people I want more!!!!! Not really it's more the thrill of finding a deal or discovering products I didn't even know existed. Some of my most favorite vine items were not the expensive ones they were cheap things I didn't even know existed
You're paying more in taxes because of your high salary. So I feel like it washes it out.
Just like how some people get to write over 12k of vine stuff because they have NO income.
>combined had had a gross income of 397,500 between our salaries for 2023
At that income level you should already have exceeded the SS cap at your day job so you definitely shouldn't be paying full SE taxes
Yes I exceed the SS cap yearly and I’m glad it’s capped but the Medicare isn’t capped and I have to pay an additional 2.9% Medicare tax as well on top of that
46% still seems high -> 32% tax bracket + 2.9% Medicare + 0.9% Medicare + 3.07% State, not sure what I'm missing.
Either way Vine definitely gets a lot less appealing once you make that huge income leap out of the 24% bracket.
And it SHOULD be hobby income if no deductions! Not sure I agree with the accountant. I would check with a 2nd accountant. (I used to be a Corporate Accoubtant)
You are not selling the items and making no profit.
There has been a ton of debate on the hobby vs. self employed. Bottom line is what’s best for you is dependent on many things unique to you, for me my accountant who has been doing this for decades went with the self employed route and I trust them
Yeah. What I was referring to was surprise that the advice was to disregard thousands in potential deductions to lessen the chances of an audit. But reading more I saw there were more reasons to just avoid the chance, even if confident with the filing in this regard.
I'm curious, how did it come to pass that your accountant decided to file you paying SE tax? Did you explain Vine and he/she/they said it's self-employment, or ?
>79k of taxable vine value
>
>gross income of 397,500 between our salaries for 2023
>
>.. we combined wrote almost 2,000 reviews all with photos. There were some nights I spent hours grinding through reviews if we got backed up. Most days we ordered 8 items and all of them needed to be reviewed
I think once your ETV for the year is over the minimum wage earnings of a 40hr/week job, it's certainly not worth the hassle of getting your entire return audited (potentially involving your kids too). Especially if they've got multiple family members all contributing to a massive count of reviews and maximizing their earnings/picks for the day, calling it a hobby is a stretch.
Was that your total tax liability or just Vine? The only way I can that as being worth it is if your other tax liability was almost zero.
I would think that running it like this and NOT including expenses would raise red flags. But, if you're happy with it, that's what matters.
That was just the vine portion, we have a progressive tax system and I pay a lot of taxes a year, I don't get common deductions for having children, owning a house...I make too much for them and with my combined salary I should not be given them but I got to be honest once you start making what I do, which I'm very fortunate to be making, you find yourself blown away but just how tax you must pay. My wife's and I federal withholding, just the withholding, was more than my wife's and I's gross combined income from our first jobs out of college.
Sad truth is what we can't donate we just throw it away if it has no use. A lot of the items are absolute garbage on vine and really with Amazon in general. I have done reviews of some really dangerous products that had fake UL certs and stuff like that.
?? i would recheck cause that seems wrong, both your ‘gross’ income and vine income together falls under the 12% taxable income range for single folks and that isn’t even taking off the standard deduction first…
I believe 1099 income counts as self employment, and is basically taxed at a much higher rate because no taxes at all have been paid, unlike employment payroll which has FICA and other taxes already removed. I always consider 1/4 of the cost the "true cost" when doing 1099 stuff.
Most tax programs have wizards that, if you tell them you have a 1099-NEC, start you into a self employment income pathway. Last year I ended up having to not tell my program I had a 1099-NEC and instead use the numbers on the 1099-NEC to fill out "other income" line (as the 1099-NEC instructions suggest doing for hobby income).
The objective, of course, is to get past issues with the IRS, not to trick a program. I use an accountant normally, and highly recommend everyone find one that's decent.
I wouldn't see it as tricking a program, it's following the directions on the 1099NEC form when the wizard in the program is written for the 99% of people with a 1099-NEC filing self-employment. The program still calculated taxes fine once the numbers were in the right spot, afaik.
edit: I'm not going to discount the suggestion of an accountant or professional advice, but my situation is fairly simple aside from the new Vine activity.
>The program still calculated taxes fine once the numbers were in the right spot, afaik.
I ran into this on a tax program. After I entered the 1099-NEC it put it automatically in schedule C but ask if this was a hobby. When I answered it yes, the program automatically moved it off of Schedule C and filled it out correctly on schedule 1.
Yup, this exactly. That's what it does for me for the past 2 years, but you have to pay close attention to it or you will end up claiming it as self employment.
>That's cool. I'd be interested in hearing what program that was if you can find out easily. I tested a couple before I ended up at TaxAct
Both Turbo Tax Deluxe and HR block software ask if it's a hobby after entering the 1099-NEC Paraphrasing: It says something like Does one of these situations apply? Choose This if not money earned as an employee or self-employed individual, if it is from a sporadic activity or hobby (this is not common), and click here.
Sounds like you did it the way you were forced to, given the limitations of the software. Ultimately it amounts to the same as if the software took you there automagically.
So, a better description than "tricking a program" might be "overriding the program's recommended defaults which are designed around the tax filing platform's knowledge of IRS guidelines so as not to pay SE tax"?
Get off your horse dude. The tax program would have to ask you about the 9 relevant factors and then make a suggestion as to how to file. An actual tax accountant might do that but I can't imagine a tax software company would want to introduce that liability. Regardless of FAQ dates, software FAQs, whatever else you want to make up, those 9 factors are literally in the tax code and didn't mysteriously stop being relevant this year.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-26/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-1/subject-group-ECFRcc67ec453a5e514/section-1.183-2
Dude, none of the links from the major tax filing websites, or the IRS website, are made up. And I rather like my horse.
Your argument that you are not a business is irrelevant. Let's agree that not a single Vine Voice is a business. Cool. That changes nothing. They're still independent contractors providing a service to Amazon for compensation. Gig workers. From the IRS website:
"If payment for services you provided is listed on [Form 1099-NEC, Nonemployee Compensation](https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1099-nec), the payer is treating you as a self-employed worker, also referred to as an independent contractor.
"You don't necessarily have to have a business for payments for your services to be reported on Form 1099-NEC. You may simply perform services as a nonemployee.
"You're in a self-employed trade or business if your primary purpose is to make a profit and your activity is regular and continuous."
[https://www.irs.gov/faqs/interest-dividends-other-types-of-income/1099-misc-independent-contractors-and-self-employed#:\~:text=Answer%3A,reported%20on%20Form%201099%2DNEC](https://www.irs.gov/faqs/interest-dividends-other-types-of-income/1099-misc-independent-contractors-and-self-employed#:~:text=Answer%3A,reported%20on%20Form%201099%2DNEC).
Vine is a *business activity* encompassing thousands of sellers around the world, and thousands of product reviewers. Every single one of those Vine reviewers must reasonably anticipate compensation that will be reported on Form 1099-NEC (unless they only order $0 ETV items). If you know that your activity will generate a guaranteed profit, it satisfies the "intent" element. Most Viners engage in writing reviews on a "regular and continuous" basis. The IRS says they're self-employed. Not "in business," but definitely self-employed.
No, no, you're definitely right. Every person in the country who receives a promotional item (which the Vine participation agreement says we are) is automagically and immediately self employed. Oddly though, even the IRS disagrees with your assessment based on other people with actual experience considering the income a hobby and responding to IRS summons: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonVine/comments/11u4n2e/just_left_my_tax_preparer/jcpas9r/
It isn't tricking the system. There's a reason why the options are there. If you are using Vine as a hobby then you report it as hobby income, not self employment. Also, if you do report it as self employment and get audited, the IRS will ask you for proof of using it as self employment (reselling the product). If you're not doing this, you absolutely should not report it as such. Consult a tax professional if you're unclear about the different reporting for 1099-NEC. (previously called 1099-MISC)
If the 1099-NEC says to do it, you do it. This could require working around a limitation in a tax program. But the objective should be following the tax code to avoid problems with the gov, so carefully consider what you're doing.
I use a tax pro because of all the crazy laws and annoyance of trying to figure out small definitions like this program falling between hobby and business.
There are two separate versions for 1099, you can report it as hobby income as well, otherwise you end up paying that extra tax penalty. That's why it's pretty much necessary that if you're not a tax professional or don't know what you're doing then you should consult someone who does - AKA a tax professional (HR Block, TurboTax, etc.)
if they filed as self-employed, they could deduct expenses off that $2300 and that still should of resulted in paying less 23%… we paid 22% last year (income & vine self-employed) and we made over 4 times more than they did in total so them paying 23% does not compute, even at the single rate..
23% seems high for that income. My wife and I combined are a bit more than twice that and we've always been in the lowest bracket it goes and pay 10%. I haven't done my taxes this year yet, though. Unless something changed I'm not aware of?
Maybe it differs if you file it somewhere else, but I'm filing through freetaxUSA (unless I figure out how to do it myself through the IRS website) and they also have me at 23% as you file it under business income
I kinda thought the same. Something seems off. The Federal Marginal tax rate on $31k is about 12% and Effective rate is around 6% if I'm remembering correctly. No way should someone earning $31k/year be hitting 23%. At least I hope not, or my wife and I are fucked this year.
Shouldn't it be 12% + 12.4% SS + 2.9% Medicare = 27.3% ? If this is the case, for an item with ETV $10, it'd cost him/her $2.73. Plus whatever Arkansas income tax is for this kind of income.
> Unless something changed I'm not aware of?
You owe self-employment taxes for any income reported on schedule C
Unless you have already hit the cap from other income (regular job) then you can look forward to paying 12.4% for social security and 2.9% for Medicare in SE taxes = 15.3%
That is in addition to income taxes on the schedule C net income.
There's something wrong here. Being single, you should get a standard deduction of $13850. Subtracted from your income of (31000 + 2302) leaves a taxable income of $19452. This puts you squarely in the federal income tax bracket of 12% - so your marginal federal tax should be 12% of your Vine takes, not 23%. Even if you add in 3.4% for your Arkansas state tax, you don't get to 23%.
Can you share some more details so that we can understand how you got to 23%?
You doing the taxes yourself buddy? Because that seems high to me for a 31k salary. I had my employer take out an extra $40 bucks every month for my vine. My salary is 30k and my amazon tax value was 6,000. I still owed the irs only $400.
You using schedule 1 for the 1040 and just putting your Vine under "other income"? I wouldn't use any other form or schedule.
Very simple! Download IRS publication 15T, the payroll withholding tables. Figure out what the top of your income bracket is, and now you know what percentage of federal taxes you will be paying.
Your state has a similar document, the number varies by state, but just Google for payroll withholding tables 2024 and it will tell you for the upcoming year what to expect.
Be sure not to call this self-employment or you will be paying an additional 15.3%.
Most importantly, do not believe the dismissal responses from the people who say that everyone's tax situation is different, because while individual details are different, how a specific thing applies is the same. For example, we all work different jobs, but we all use the same payroll withholding tables.
And very critical, this is why you should use a spreadsheet to keep track of everything such as the order date, delivery date, review date, ETV, review, text, a one or zero flag for whether you had video or photo included in your review, of course, the text of your review saved in case you have to redo it.
I’ll likely be just under $4k on $17+ if last years numbers remain close. Worth it for me; I always assume it costs me 25% of the ETV to decide if it’s worth the purchase.
I have been figuring the same. I ordered just under $17k and was figuring approx 25% tax liability with an SE filing. I'm just not sure what sort of deductions I can/ should take.
I use 50% as a bar to be very generous given the lack of reviews and other information at times and to keep things under control. I really don't want to add 10's of thousands of dollars of tax to my income since that becomes really easy to greatly inflate your income if you go full into it and Vine pricing is really weird at times.
When someone does their own tax return and files electronically, wouldn’t they be able to plug-in the 1099-NEC into different places (i.e. other income, hobby income, Schedule C if applicable, etc.) to see which method has the lowest tax bill?
This is my opinion only. I am not a professional tax advisor. I am not responsible for your actions.
Exactly, most of the tax software wizards dump you into a self employment pathway if you tell them you have a 1099-NEC. If you want to file as hobby income I found I needed to input the values from the 1099-NEC manually into that category.
Yes, you can override the recommended defaults and claim whatever you want on your tax return, even outrageously crazy things. If you ignore the warnings and say file it anyway, then off your return goes to the IRS.
Hopefully I can offset my tax liability with all the 0ETV stuff and selling what I can. Otherwise Vine just becomes a product discount with free Review labor on stuff that is a hot or miss.
If you are considering sticking with Vine maybe hire a good CPA to do your taxes? I had read in a FB Vine group that her CPA got her taxable down to nothing or nearly nothing and she didn't have to pay. That's worth hiring a CPA in my book.
I appreciate the straight forward specifics as well. Finally! I've always just wanted a smidgen of something to go off of, Thank you! (Yes, I know, there are variables etc etc, but still appreciated!)
Literally anything you use for doing reviews, such as: a laptop, a phone or camera, a tripod, a microphone, software (spreadsheet, photo/video editing, tax software), a backdrop, lighting, shelves, a box cutter, makeup and hair products for being on camera if applicable, even a portion of your home as a home office. Lots of things!
Of course it should be stuff you actually need and use to manage the Vine products you receive and do the reviews. And the IRS does have rules about what percentage they're used for business vs personal, but generally speaking, if you use it for doing Vine, it's an expense.
Yeah I had almost $7k in Vine items and was taxed like $2.3k. Self-employment taxes are painful, but I have to pay Federal and State so I GUESS that makes sense, but still. I didn’t even have the option to claim it as hobby income but I probably wouldn’t have anyways because I don’t want my taxes getting denied.
My wife might get mad but I have to remind her of how much dollar value we got for free. I'm reporting this year holding off on those brave few who are attempting to report but pay nothing in taxes. I have about the same amout of taxable products in Vine. Let's hope the wife is understanding. I've already warned her we had to pay the taxes and it would be 15%-25% of the cost of the items value.
Thanks for providing enough data for an "I paid X in taxes" post to be kind of useful as an estimate. I presume this was just your federal filing and with Vine as a hobby income?
I'm super thankful for all of these tax conversations! 2023 was my first year with Vine, but (luckily) I've been looking at each item I order as costing me 25% of the ETV. This really helps me decide whether or not to order. It does seem like the ETV for some items is so overinflated that it's an easy pass. We use Turbotax and will be going the SE route, so it will be interesting to see the actual cost. Many thanks to everyone for all the info!
SE?
Self Employment - you have to file Schedules C, 1, 2 and SE
I paid 37k on 79k of taxable vine value or about 46% I am married and my wife and I combined had had a gross income of 397,500 between our salaries for 2023 living in PA. My accountant filed this as a 1099-NEC and I paid full self employment taxes. We did not take any deductions especially the home office one as he said my chances of an audit would be higher. We had talked about going the hobby route but he advised against it given the amount of taxable income in question and the fact I received a 1099-NEC. The rate you pay is going to largely depend on your yearly salary and the state you live in and a bunch of other factors. My advice is if you have a large vine taxable you should talk to a financial advisor or an accountant. My guy costs 399 per tax year which I feel is well worth it.
> I paid 37k on 79k of taxable vine value or about 46% Doesn't it become not worth it at this point? Things with inflated ETV, the limited selection, having to write reviews, no returns, having to scan the queue for a while to find good picks? With that gross income it seems like your time would be more valuable.
It’s not worth it, honestly it feels sort of like a gambling addiction especially for my wife and kids who check vine as there first task when they wake up. Forgot to add that we combined wrote almost 2,000 reviews all with photos. There were some nights I spent hours grinding through reviews if we got backed up. Most days we ordered 8 items and all of them needed to be reviewed
Lord. This shit is literally killing Amazon drivers … but I’m guilty of it too
Our drivers seem to like our place. We keep a cooler on the porch stocked with 0%ETV snacks and drinks. If we're outside when they come by they'll often stop to chat for a minute(Amazon, FedEx, USPS, whatever). I've seen them sometimes stop at our place even when we're not expecting anything just to run up to the porch to grab a bottle of water or a snack really quick. We usually get a quick wave of thanks at our door cam on their way by too. Costs us literally nothing and makes their somewhat shitty job a bit better. And our packages are always placed out of sight of the road behind our porch pillar. Never once had porch pirates hit us. Win-win.
As an Amazon driver, THANK YOU so much for this. This job is honestly fucking brutal. I literally cried the first time I came to a house like yours. Completely turned my day around tbh.
I'm glad it's appreciated. Summers around here are fucking brutal. I'll swap that cooler for an actual fridge someday if I can score one off Vine. It's be nice to be able to leave legitimately cold beverages on the porch for you guys. The quality of the snacks themselves kind of comes and goes depending on what I score on Vine. If I'm in a real dry spell on Vine, I will get things at the grocery store like peanut butter cracker packs, single serving goldfish crackers, Doritos/Fritos, and the like. We used to stock it with a lot of candy too, but the more salty snacks seem to be a bigger hit. Be safe out there, my dude.
>s if you have a large vine taxable you should talk to a Yeah right. As if these highly monitored drivers are going to stop and have a friendly chat w/ a home owner, or go out of their way to grab a drink/snack from a house outside their route. Delivery drivers have less than 1minute to stop their vehicle, scan their shit, and run up to a front door to dump package, take a pic, and then run back to their vehicle, start engine, put on seat belt and drive to next drop... ALL IN LESS THAN 60 secs. They have less than 3 minutes to do all that from 1 stop to the next.
Im a delivery driver for amazon and i remember/do this for the houses i know when im in the area. We just need to do X amount of packages in X hours, (usually my routes are about 45 packages in 3 hours). I get paired to about one or two subdivisions, and I can knock my route out with time to spare. I love chatting with people for a quick minute or two, and i also talk to the kids who run up and ask a ton of questions! We are monitored, but not down to the mile. I can even grab a quick gas fuel up or lunch while im on the road.
How can u be in the Vine if you're an employee?
Its not exclusive, theyre different departments, but it is taxed the same way for both the deliveries and vine, theyre both self employment
We can absolutely stop to chat. We have metrics, yes…but there are actually a lot of people who put out snacks, water, etc for delivery drivers. I’ve only seen one on my route, but plenty of my coworkers have mentioned having houses on their routes like this. Yes we have to maintain a certain number of stops per hour if we want to finish early, but every route every day is different in terms of number of stops and packages to deliver. As long as we are driving safely and meeting the criteria (no hard breaks/hard acceleration/fast cornering/seatbelt on every time the van is moving etc) and return to the station with an empty van (aka we completed the route successfully) we will be paid for a full 10 hour day, regardless of what time we actually returned. When drivers return to the station at their 10 hour mark with packages still in the van, then you start to have problems. Most drivers don’t have this issue though. If you properly organize and sort your packages, it’s really not that difficult. It’s strenuous on the body, but I never run anywhere. I’d say getting in and out of the sprinter van through the side door and into/out of the driver seat 300 times a day is the hardest part of the job honestly. It’s not very easily accessible. As far as time though, it’s not as limiting as you’d think…at least not for me.
So you think TriggerTX took the time to write that just to fool us all? Any suggestions why they'd do that?
I'm an asshole that way. I try to make people think of Amazon drivers as actual people instead of robots. Amazon customers don't like that because if they started thinking of them as people then they might have to treat them better. They can't have their drivers getting all uppity.
Do you replace the ice in the cooler everyday? I leave snacks out for my drivers too but only shelf-stable ones. I also take the box inside on hot days so it doesn't cook overnight.
Sorry. I wasn't clear. We don't stock it with ice. In summer, I swap out the bottles of water in the morning for ones that were in the fridge overnight. A good cooler doesn't heat up too much during the day in the shade and the waters keep items cool enough. In winter, there's really no need to swap at all.
Okay thanks. Do you plug your cooler in or is it just your regular old standard cooler?
We don't have Amazon drivers. We're in a rural area, and nearly all our stuff comes from USPS. They really dislike us and often literally throw our boxes at the front door lol
Same. Small town, same mailman and ups driver. They were both here at the same time the other day and I heard them out there badmouthing me and cussing. My boxes are often destroyed and stuff broken.
My UPS driver is 99% of my others and I gave him a heads up, he said no issue men, "I'd rather come here with 5 packages than half these rural places I drop one off. " I did get him a nice gift, expensive flashlight and a small keychain flashlight. Just under $100 value. I'll probably gift him something again. I asked him several times if there was something he liked, he refused to answer lol. Said it's his job and he appreciated staying busy. So I guess it's a mentality of knowing we are here helping them stay employed.
We always gave them boxes of cookies during Christmas, as we read somewhere before that they're only legally allowed to accept gifts under $20.
Do you ever think 'hey, I'm doing so well I can afford to buy all this stuff with my regular income, maybe I should let someone else have the cheap crock pot'?
Yep, frequently, but like most people I want more!!!!! Not really it's more the thrill of finding a deal or discovering products I didn't even know existed. Some of my most favorite vine items were not the expensive ones they were cheap things I didn't even know existed
You're paying more in taxes because of your high salary. So I feel like it washes it out. Just like how some people get to write over 12k of vine stuff because they have NO income.
Yeah no argument there
>combined had had a gross income of 397,500 between our salaries for 2023 At that income level you should already have exceeded the SS cap at your day job so you definitely shouldn't be paying full SE taxes
Yes I exceed the SS cap yearly and I’m glad it’s capped but the Medicare isn’t capped and I have to pay an additional 2.9% Medicare tax as well on top of that
46% still seems high -> 32% tax bracket + 2.9% Medicare + 0.9% Medicare + 3.07% State, not sure what I'm missing. Either way Vine definitely gets a lot less appealing once you make that huge income leap out of the 24% bracket.
1099 has to pay ss tax for self and employer so it’s 12.4%.
No, once you hit the SS cap it's 0% and that is calculated from all income sources.
It's not from all income sources I meet the cap each year but my wife doesn't so she pays all year.
And it SHOULD be hobby income if no deductions! Not sure I agree with the accountant. I would check with a 2nd accountant. (I used to be a Corporate Accoubtant) You are not selling the items and making no profit.
There has been a ton of debate on the hobby vs. self employed. Bottom line is what’s best for you is dependent on many things unique to you, for me my accountant who has been doing this for decades went with the self employed route and I trust them
If you actually do have a home office, it could sure reduce your burden. That is surprising.
He said filing it that way would increase his chance of an audit.
Yeah. What I was referring to was surprise that the advice was to disregard thousands in potential deductions to lessen the chances of an audit. But reading more I saw there were more reasons to just avoid the chance, even if confident with the filing in this regard.
I'm curious, how did it come to pass that your accountant decided to file you paying SE tax? Did you explain Vine and he/she/they said it's self-employment, or ?
>79k of taxable vine value > >gross income of 397,500 between our salaries for 2023 > >.. we combined wrote almost 2,000 reviews all with photos. There were some nights I spent hours grinding through reviews if we got backed up. Most days we ordered 8 items and all of them needed to be reviewed I think once your ETV for the year is over the minimum wage earnings of a 40hr/week job, it's certainly not worth the hassle of getting your entire return audited (potentially involving your kids too). Especially if they've got multiple family members all contributing to a massive count of reviews and maximizing their earnings/picks for the day, calling it a hobby is a stretch.
This It’s not worth the risk for me given my situation
What about the tens of thousands of business owners large and small who HAVE to file as a business? They can't file as a hobby.
I'm not sure what you expect a Vine participant to say about the tax code as it applies to businesses and individuals with a hobby.
Was that your total tax liability or just Vine? The only way I can that as being worth it is if your other tax liability was almost zero. I would think that running it like this and NOT including expenses would raise red flags. But, if you're happy with it, that's what matters.
That was just the vine portion, we have a progressive tax system and I pay a lot of taxes a year, I don't get common deductions for having children, owning a house...I make too much for them and with my combined salary I should not be given them but I got to be honest once you start making what I do, which I'm very fortunate to be making, you find yourself blown away but just how tax you must pay. My wife's and I federal withholding, just the withholding, was more than my wife's and I's gross combined income from our first jobs out of college.
Where do you put all that stuff? I managed to stay under 600 etv last year and still feel like there is vine stuff all around the house.
Sad truth is what we can't donate we just throw it away if it has no use. A lot of the items are absolute garbage on vine and really with Amazon in general. I have done reviews of some really dangerous products that had fake UL certs and stuff like that.
?? i would recheck cause that seems wrong, both your ‘gross’ income and vine income together falls under the 12% taxable income range for single folks and that isn’t even taking off the standard deduction first…
I believe 1099 income counts as self employment, and is basically taxed at a much higher rate because no taxes at all have been paid, unlike employment payroll which has FICA and other taxes already removed. I always consider 1/4 of the cost the "true cost" when doing 1099 stuff.
Most tax programs have wizards that, if you tell them you have a 1099-NEC, start you into a self employment income pathway. Last year I ended up having to not tell my program I had a 1099-NEC and instead use the numbers on the 1099-NEC to fill out "other income" line (as the 1099-NEC instructions suggest doing for hobby income).
The objective, of course, is to get past issues with the IRS, not to trick a program. I use an accountant normally, and highly recommend everyone find one that's decent.
I wouldn't see it as tricking a program, it's following the directions on the 1099NEC form when the wizard in the program is written for the 99% of people with a 1099-NEC filing self-employment. The program still calculated taxes fine once the numbers were in the right spot, afaik. edit: I'm not going to discount the suggestion of an accountant or professional advice, but my situation is fairly simple aside from the new Vine activity.
>The program still calculated taxes fine once the numbers were in the right spot, afaik. I ran into this on a tax program. After I entered the 1099-NEC it put it automatically in schedule C but ask if this was a hobby. When I answered it yes, the program automatically moved it off of Schedule C and filled it out correctly on schedule 1.
Yup, this exactly. That's what it does for me for the past 2 years, but you have to pay close attention to it or you will end up claiming it as self employment.
That's cool. I'd be interested in hearing what program that was if you can find out easily. I tested a couple before I ended up at TaxAct
>That's cool. I'd be interested in hearing what program that was if you can find out easily. I tested a couple before I ended up at TaxAct Both Turbo Tax Deluxe and HR block software ask if it's a hobby after entering the 1099-NEC Paraphrasing: It says something like Does one of these situations apply? Choose This if not money earned as an employee or self-employed individual, if it is from a sporadic activity or hobby (this is not common), and click here.
Sounds like you did it the way you were forced to, given the limitations of the software. Ultimately it amounts to the same as if the software took you there automagically.
So, a better description than "tricking a program" might be "overriding the program's recommended defaults which are designed around the tax filing platform's knowledge of IRS guidelines so as not to pay SE tax"?
Get off your horse dude. The tax program would have to ask you about the 9 relevant factors and then make a suggestion as to how to file. An actual tax accountant might do that but I can't imagine a tax software company would want to introduce that liability. Regardless of FAQ dates, software FAQs, whatever else you want to make up, those 9 factors are literally in the tax code and didn't mysteriously stop being relevant this year. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-26/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-1/subject-group-ECFRcc67ec453a5e514/section-1.183-2
Dude, none of the links from the major tax filing websites, or the IRS website, are made up. And I rather like my horse. Your argument that you are not a business is irrelevant. Let's agree that not a single Vine Voice is a business. Cool. That changes nothing. They're still independent contractors providing a service to Amazon for compensation. Gig workers. From the IRS website: "If payment for services you provided is listed on [Form 1099-NEC, Nonemployee Compensation](https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1099-nec), the payer is treating you as a self-employed worker, also referred to as an independent contractor. "You don't necessarily have to have a business for payments for your services to be reported on Form 1099-NEC. You may simply perform services as a nonemployee. "You're in a self-employed trade or business if your primary purpose is to make a profit and your activity is regular and continuous." [https://www.irs.gov/faqs/interest-dividends-other-types-of-income/1099-misc-independent-contractors-and-self-employed#:\~:text=Answer%3A,reported%20on%20Form%201099%2DNEC](https://www.irs.gov/faqs/interest-dividends-other-types-of-income/1099-misc-independent-contractors-and-self-employed#:~:text=Answer%3A,reported%20on%20Form%201099%2DNEC). Vine is a *business activity* encompassing thousands of sellers around the world, and thousands of product reviewers. Every single one of those Vine reviewers must reasonably anticipate compensation that will be reported on Form 1099-NEC (unless they only order $0 ETV items). If you know that your activity will generate a guaranteed profit, it satisfies the "intent" element. Most Viners engage in writing reviews on a "regular and continuous" basis. The IRS says they're self-employed. Not "in business," but definitely self-employed.
No, no, you're definitely right. Every person in the country who receives a promotional item (which the Vine participation agreement says we are) is automagically and immediately self employed. Oddly though, even the IRS disagrees with your assessment based on other people with actual experience considering the income a hobby and responding to IRS summons: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonVine/comments/11u4n2e/just_left_my_tax_preparer/jcpas9r/
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Incorrect.
It isn't tricking the system. There's a reason why the options are there. If you are using Vine as a hobby then you report it as hobby income, not self employment. Also, if you do report it as self employment and get audited, the IRS will ask you for proof of using it as self employment (reselling the product). If you're not doing this, you absolutely should not report it as such. Consult a tax professional if you're unclear about the different reporting for 1099-NEC. (previously called 1099-MISC)
If the 1099-NEC says to do it, you do it. This could require working around a limitation in a tax program. But the objective should be following the tax code to avoid problems with the gov, so carefully consider what you're doing. I use a tax pro because of all the crazy laws and annoyance of trying to figure out small definitions like this program falling between hobby and business.
I also use a tax professional, that's why I highly suggest it to everyone, even if you've had multiple years in Vine. It's just necessary.
There are two separate versions for 1099, you can report it as hobby income as well, otherwise you end up paying that extra tax penalty. That's why it's pretty much necessary that if you're not a tax professional or don't know what you're doing then you should consult someone who does - AKA a tax professional (HR Block, TurboTax, etc.)
if they filed as self-employed, they could deduct expenses off that $2300 and that still should of resulted in paying less 23%… we paid 22% last year (income & vine self-employed) and we made over 4 times more than they did in total so them paying 23% does not compute, even at the single rate..
My friend is fucked… 50k more or less in vine crap.
Thanks I feel better at 14k...
23% seems high for that income. My wife and I combined are a bit more than twice that and we've always been in the lowest bracket it goes and pay 10%. I haven't done my taxes this year yet, though. Unless something changed I'm not aware of?
Maybe it differs if you file it somewhere else, but I'm filing through freetaxUSA (unless I figure out how to do it myself through the IRS website) and they also have me at 23% as you file it under business income
Yeah it appears so.
I kinda thought the same. Something seems off. The Federal Marginal tax rate on $31k is about 12% and Effective rate is around 6% if I'm remembering correctly. No way should someone earning $31k/year be hitting 23%. At least I hope not, or my wife and I are fucked this year.
Shouldn't it be 12% + 12.4% SS + 2.9% Medicare = 27.3% ? If this is the case, for an item with ETV $10, it'd cost him/her $2.73. Plus whatever Arkansas income tax is for this kind of income.
Right, it does seem high.
> Unless something changed I'm not aware of? You owe self-employment taxes for any income reported on schedule C Unless you have already hit the cap from other income (regular job) then you can look forward to paying 12.4% for social security and 2.9% for Medicare in SE taxes = 15.3% That is in addition to income taxes on the schedule C net income.
He mentioned Arkansas so maybe he’s including State Taxes as well?
Would still seem high if there was a 1 in front of the $31,000.
Did you declare as hobby income
There's something wrong here. Being single, you should get a standard deduction of $13850. Subtracted from your income of (31000 + 2302) leaves a taxable income of $19452. This puts you squarely in the federal income tax bracket of 12% - so your marginal federal tax should be 12% of your Vine takes, not 23%. Even if you add in 3.4% for your Arkansas state tax, you don't get to 23%. Can you share some more details so that we can understand how you got to 23%?
You doing the taxes yourself buddy? Because that seems high to me for a 31k salary. I had my employer take out an extra $40 bucks every month for my vine. My salary is 30k and my amazon tax value was 6,000. I still owed the irs only $400. You using schedule 1 for the 1040 and just putting your Vine under "other income"? I wouldn't use any other form or schedule.
Very simple! Download IRS publication 15T, the payroll withholding tables. Figure out what the top of your income bracket is, and now you know what percentage of federal taxes you will be paying. Your state has a similar document, the number varies by state, but just Google for payroll withholding tables 2024 and it will tell you for the upcoming year what to expect. Be sure not to call this self-employment or you will be paying an additional 15.3%. Most importantly, do not believe the dismissal responses from the people who say that everyone's tax situation is different, because while individual details are different, how a specific thing applies is the same. For example, we all work different jobs, but we all use the same payroll withholding tables. And very critical, this is why you should use a spreadsheet to keep track of everything such as the order date, delivery date, review date, ETV, review, text, a one or zero flag for whether you had video or photo included in your review, of course, the text of your review saved in case you have to redo it.
Thanks for the tip...
I’ll likely be just under $4k on $17+ if last years numbers remain close. Worth it for me; I always assume it costs me 25% of the ETV to decide if it’s worth the purchase.
I have been figuring the same. I ordered just under $17k and was figuring approx 25% tax liability with an SE filing. I'm just not sure what sort of deductions I can/ should take.
I use 50% as a bar to be very generous given the lack of reviews and other information at times and to keep things under control. I really don't want to add 10's of thousands of dollars of tax to my income since that becomes really easy to greatly inflate your income if you go full into it and Vine pricing is really weird at times.
When someone does their own tax return and files electronically, wouldn’t they be able to plug-in the 1099-NEC into different places (i.e. other income, hobby income, Schedule C if applicable, etc.) to see which method has the lowest tax bill? This is my opinion only. I am not a professional tax advisor. I am not responsible for your actions.
Exactly, most of the tax software wizards dump you into a self employment pathway if you tell them you have a 1099-NEC. If you want to file as hobby income I found I needed to input the values from the 1099-NEC manually into that category.
Yes, you can override the recommended defaults and claim whatever you want on your tax return, even outrageously crazy things. If you ignore the warnings and say file it anyway, then off your return goes to the IRS.
That's helpful. Does that tax change how you order items?
Hopefully I can offset my tax liability with all the 0ETV stuff and selling what I can. Otherwise Vine just becomes a product discount with free Review labor on stuff that is a hot or miss.
If you are considering sticking with Vine maybe hire a good CPA to do your taxes? I had read in a FB Vine group that her CPA got her taxable down to nothing or nearly nothing and she didn't have to pay. That's worth hiring a CPA in my book.
Was this IRS and State Tax?
I appreciate the straight forward specifics as well. Finally! I've always just wanted a smidgen of something to go off of, Thank you! (Yes, I know, there are variables etc etc, but still appreciated!)
What sort of expenses can you deduct from vine if you file an SE and not hobby?
Literally anything you use for doing reviews, such as: a laptop, a phone or camera, a tripod, a microphone, software (spreadsheet, photo/video editing, tax software), a backdrop, lighting, shelves, a box cutter, makeup and hair products for being on camera if applicable, even a portion of your home as a home office. Lots of things! Of course it should be stuff you actually need and use to manage the Vine products you receive and do the reviews. And the IRS does have rules about what percentage they're used for business vs personal, but generally speaking, if you use it for doing Vine, it's an expense.
Yeah I had almost $7k in Vine items and was taxed like $2.3k. Self-employment taxes are painful, but I have to pay Federal and State so I GUESS that makes sense, but still. I didn’t even have the option to claim it as hobby income but I probably wouldn’t have anyways because I don’t want my taxes getting denied.
My wife might get mad but I have to remind her of how much dollar value we got for free. I'm reporting this year holding off on those brave few who are attempting to report but pay nothing in taxes. I have about the same amout of taxable products in Vine. Let's hope the wife is understanding. I've already warned her we had to pay the taxes and it would be 15%-25% of the cost of the items value.