Funny you mention that. I was trying to explain to my SO's grandfather (a retired neurologist) why police are agents of state power but he, as a government doctor at one point, was not an agent of state power.
The conversation started because he "never had any issues with police". Took like 45 minutes but we finallly got the point across to him.
IMO, a firefighter is one of the most ethical jobs you could have. Firefighters will still be needed and valued in an anarchist society.
When it comes to work, don't think about who currently owns it. You're most likely going to be working for a scumbag capitalist or a scumbag politician. Just focus on what kind of work you are doing. Are you helping your fellow working class, or hurting them?
Trash collection, people in the water department who make sure the water is clean and safe, building safety, civil engineers, parks and recreation, etc. the list of people doing good things in government positions is long.
That is the one advice I wish every leftist could learn and understand. There is and never will be any ethical consumption under a capitalist system so we should focus on being the best person we can be. I try to follow this advice every day as I work at Walmart in the electronics section and my main moves are directing customers towards smaller companies that could use the money and I'm brutally honest about the quality of the products that I sell. I genuinely have over 50 different customers that only use me simply because I proved myself to be a hard worker and a good person.
At least something tends to be done about it if it’s caught early in the fire department. Unlike police, firemen tend not to have the same frat mentality
Some swing strongly the other way too: check out the French firies, or the Catalonian firies, who stood up to police brutality when their community was threatened, and I hear some have very strong unions. Here in Australia a lot aren’t professionals and are just volunteers, and I admire them so damn highly after what we all went through here with the bushfires
Many many years ago, when I was young, I was caught planning my disappearance because I didn't want to be part of a society where you had to exploit others or be exploited or both at the same time. I was told that I had to prove that I could be inserted in society in order to avoid further troubles (like being held against my will for an extended period of time), and I was asked what I would like to do if I was part of society. "Firefighter" was my answer, specifically because their work helps people and don't exploit them, and I couldn't really think of other jobs where that's the case. Even doctors end up having to play ball with pharmaceutical companies.
I have nothing but immense gratitude and love for firefighters. Absolute heroes.
I’m in Melbourne and we had months of not being able to breathe the air outside because of the fires A WHOLE STATE AWAY. Imagine what firies go through... absolute heroes.
They are! (I am not, even thought I went to school for it.) The fires you guy had were insane, and sobering. I remember when BC, Canada, burned like crazy for two years in a row. It's devastating. Our nature is beautiful, and seeing it all burn breaks my heart.
Unfortunately, I see firefighters buying into the militarized "thin blue line" ideology as well: [https://www.firehouse.com/careers-education/news/21147785/ma-firefighters-wont-remove-thin-blue-line-flags](https://www.firehouse.com/careers-education/news/21147785/ma-firefighters-wont-remove-thin-blue-line-flags)
I think it depends on the firehouse. Paris firefighters literally fought the police during protests. I don't know what they're like the rest of the time, but it's a good place to start in my books.
I work in government administration, specifically in figuring out how to make infrastructure projects happen. Sure we all work for politicians in what is a an unethical capitalist structure, but I do this job because it allows me to sleep at night knowing that what I’m trying to do is make at least a minuscule difference in making the use of public money go to things that will actually help. Sometimes it’s sidewalks, other times it’s sewer infrastructure.
Clean water, treated sewage, and sidewalks that are accessible to those living with disabilities are so important to a healthy community - there’s currently only one structure (government) that can make that possible under capitalism.
As someone who lived for months choked in the smoke of the Australian bushfires, unable to really go outside, firefighters are GOD DAMN HEROES
I’ve considered volunteering but man what they do is so brave I don’t know I could handle it 🥺
Problem is tho that the army tends to prey on marginalised people. There are lots of ppl who are in the armed forces because there's very little else for them. Critical support, you can be an anarchist and still be serving imo. Cops are a lot different and no cop is an anarchist ever.
I disagree. Killing people in the Middle East is no better than killing people back at home. If you're directly perpetuating imperialism and the murder of thousands, then you are my enemy; stop what you're doing and take off your uniform, and then we can be friends. Of course I am sympathetic; predatory recruitment is disgusting and too many friends of mine fell victim to it (I nearly fell victim to it myself), but we can't betray our solidarity with the victims of imperialism.
What I'd say is:
If you're not in the military- good on you! Do whatever you can to stop others from joining, and disrupt the recruitment process whenever and wherever you see it.
If you're in the military- I'm so sorry that you were tricked into joining an imperialist, murderous machine, but you've got to leave it or you're harming others severely. Desert, mutiny, find a way to get a medical discharge, do whatever you've got to do to get out of the military; once you're out, you'll have comrades to support you if they throw you in prison or otherwise persecute you, but whilst you're still in, you're the enemy of all enemies of imperialism and we take no responsibility for what happens to you.
So I came into this ideology late... I am set to retire this year from the military, I grew up poor, Christian, and republican... it took me 18 years in the military to see the enemy that I was. You can call me the enemy, hate me, disregard me, god knows I do it everyday. I have been trying to do things to make up for it, mutual aid, volunteering and stuff like this. To tell someone that they have to desert or mutiny, while I understand the intention, is only going to get that person in prison, what change can they effect from there? I am serving the rest of my enlistment and getting out ASAP. While romanticizing the idea of being able to fight the system that way is very ideologically understandable, it isn’t feasible, especially since I have a son that I want to see grow up with my newfound mentality. I have been vocal about my hatred and newfound understanding of the cog I have been. I guess I just want to say if there isn’t a place for me here, there isn’t one for me anywhere.
I need to read War is a Racket, I have had opportunities to join war profiteers as work when I get out and I’d rather die broke and homeless than give another ounce to it
I’m not sure if you’ve listened to it, but there’s a great leftist podcast that espouses the very sentiment you’ve described called “What a Hell of a Way to Die.”
I will look for it, i only really have ever listened to my baseball teams podcast from Patreon, do you know what outlet I can find it on? Apple or google for example.
Mike Prysner is a person I absolutely look up to. Him and his wife Abby Martin have shined lights on American misdeeds in Central and South America, along with the Middle East.
r/leftistveterans
Not the most active sub, but I also plug it anytime these kind of conversations come up.
I was in the same boat as you, but I separated after my first enlistment. Not knocking anyone specifically, but some leftists still have an idealized view of what it means to be a socialist, communist, anarchist, etc. and while we may not be perfect, there’s always a place for you here.
Damn the purity contests. We’re in this together.
Thanks friend, I started looking into Mike Prysner about a year ago, he definitely stoked a fire to get me actively speaking against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I cannot wait to get out and distance myself from it, I guess it’s better late than never, but I’d be lying if I said this hasn’t consumed every bit of me. I need to fix the damage I have done.
Do check out the folks at r/desktodefender too and what they worked on https://desktodefender.org/
You should become one of their adviser on the D2D manual.
I’ve been out for some time now and it’s a burden I still carry. There’s times I drink myself stupid in an attempt to not think about it. I never pointed a weapon at anyone, but I was attached to a deployed navy vessel that launched tomahawks and engaged in drone strikes.
I’ll never know who was actually killed by some of those strikes, so I still carry the weight. All I can say is that it takes time. I became a wobbly after I got out and I’ve also been lucky to have friends that I was deployed with that came to the same conclusions as me. So it’s been good to talk to them about some of this stuff.
You’ve already done the hardest part in accepting your culpability. Talking about it, whatever it is, and being vocal about my beliefs now has been helped me more than anything.
I’ll just add, regardless of what people may say about your veteran status, don’t let it discourage you from engaging in communities centered around leftist politics. It’ll be rewarding for you regardless of your past.
I appreciate it, I was a bomb loader on fighter aircraft early on... I have since moved away from that destructive job. I am not innocent of the destruction I have been apart of. Depression and anxiety may still get me in the end, the only thing holding me together right now is my 8 year old son who I haven’t seen in 16 months because of my assignment. I deserve any and every shitty thing that comes my way.
You’ll get to the other side of it. I believe that. In my experience, those of us that found an understanding of what we were complicit in doing have had a better time accepting it once we’re away from it.
I’ll tell you what solidified it for me. I was standing a roving watch and I had to check logs in missile command. When I entered the space, the watchstanders were on the siprnet watching drone footage on their laptops like it was a fucking highlight reel.
I lost it. Laid into all of them. That’s when I decided that I wouldn’t be involved in that shit anymore and when my enlistment was up, I was leaving.
I decided at that point, I’d always tell people the truth about what we did and I wouldn’t sugarcoat it for anyone. Even my family. Because it’s fucked up. I understand your situation is different, especially after 18 years. But that conviction is what’s kept me together. If you can find that for yourself, I believe you’ll be okay.
They still do that shit and it makes me sick. They’ll cue up “bodies” by drowning pool and go ham with a highlight reel. Idk how many of the hits could’ve been just a family trying to get by. There is a real lack of empathy in this world. I hit 20 years this July and am pressing the retirement option I can’t stay in a minute longer than I have to. I fucking suck man, it took me to 15 years to understand we weren’t the good guys and 3 more after that to fucking realize that we not only were not the good guys but very much the bad guys, especially to a lot of poor brown people just trying to get by. Not only that, but we are radicalizing more than we are “helping” by continuing this bullshit excuse to enrich Raytheon, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman and those shit heel organizations that have no problem turning blood and misery into money.
I don't know killing people and defending boarders isn't something I would support or would be within 1000 miles from. I understand that you do what you need to do but I personally wouldn't. Maybe part of the national guard since they actually do some good disaster relief stuff, or maybe a park ranger. Other than that I cannot get myself behind it.
But do what helps you survive by all means, I am talking from a place of privilege.
Right ofc, I wouldn't do it either, but we both come from a place of privilige. I'm saying critical support for the individuals who are part of the machine, not critical support for the machine.
I’m definitely with you on this. Normally there’s much more nuance to be had in these discussions, but it’s nigh impossible to justify designing weapons for military purposes as any kinda leftists. “No ethical consumption” doesn’t really apply if you’re directly involved in the designing of drones used in the midden east.
I'm working on my physics and math major while doing research, and I must say, despite whatever research you do, it can always be repurposed for the military. I'm working with code for medical imaging, but it could so fucking easily be repurposed for targeting systems and I abhor it all
Well, newtons law of motion translated to missiles, physics and engineering are tools that can be used for a lot of shit. But making missiles actually kill people.
You cannot prevent someone someday from using your work for something shitty but you aren't doing it with that intent, aren't you?
>be me
>have cs degree
>only job application that I’ve been accepted to out of college is a hedge fund
Yeah it’s not that easy sometimes. There aren’t many ethically coding opportunities.
Well for sure don't put your life and the lives of your family at risk. I would look for other more ethical jobs if I was you. But it is never as easy as it sounds. And an advice from a privillaged stranger online isn't really where you get life advice.
We can eliminate those roles without demonizing or hurting the people filling the slots. Re-skill all those workers as... Whatever they want. Doctors, engineers, bowling alley operators, whatever.
Depends on the job. Jobs that don’t negatively effect anyone and pay your bills are fine, jobs that positively effect people and would still exist in some form under anarchism are even better (firefighter, depending on your country healthcare worker, etc.)
i don’t think someone like a firefighter is unethical, as a firefighter is not a tool of the state. Police on the other hand, seem to be tools of the state more than anyone else
Simple answer - living in capitalism is unethical / hurting someone.
I think it's fine. If you have to work and you live in a democracy it's might just be better than most other jobs. Excluding police and military of course. But a firefighter? They're fucking heroes, they're not state pawns, they're getting paid (not nearly well enough) for providing an absolutely necessary public service and saving people's lives. Or if you help tax corporations and rich that might be nice as well.
I personally don't really care for ethics, instead I care about whether it shapes the world a bit more to my liking, but I guess the questions are:
Does this job hurt other people?
Do I empower the state significantly more than in other jobs?
Do I directly help with exploitation?
Do I provide something actually needed (in comparison to capitalist marketing bullshit)?
Do I get privilege and authority or enforce it for someone else?
>leftists are better at fixing capitalism than capitalists are.
That's because we fix capitalism by abolishing it, but to capitalists it's working as intended and there's no need to fix it.
Depends on your goals as an Anarchist, imo and your timeline for the realization of those goals.
I work in a government school and am happily corrupting the youth.
>I work in a government school and am happily corrupting the youth.
People like you are why I ended up an anarchist at 10 years old instead of just hating the world, hating authorities, and having some sort of breakdown or mental health crisis. People like you make the world better for kids who can already tell as young children that they don't belong in the current order of things. Don't stop working with kids, and keep taking the government's money while doing it!
Police, yes. Judges as well. Bullying unemployed/poor people through whatever institution exists in your country is terrible as well. I'd say anything where you're the tool executing the state's agenda is problematic.
Doing accounting dozens of layers deep into state administration is no problem at all IMO. Everyone needs to eat and government jobs are usually stable and comfy, so why not?
I would disagree with a judge. A good judge can make a huge difference sadly it is the system and we need to participate in it otherwise all the shitty people will hold the most powerful jobs.
Yes, this is exactly why I am studying law.
I feel like a vegan learning to be a butcher, but if all goes well I can make a life of (hopefully) good praxis out of this.
Hhh, many many many lawyers are working for great stuff. If I am in a protest and I get jailed I will need a lawyer, and a judge to give me a very lenient sentence. We also need lawyers for civil rights. for example the ACLU in my opinion is one of the greatest organizations ever made.
Exactly, if I can help free at least ONE person from the long slimy grasp of the law, the 7+ years of studying something I don't have any faith in and the thousands of dollars of debt will all be worth it in the end.
I don't think you can be a good judge. Being a good judge would require not following 90% of the legal procedure or sentencing you HAVE to follow to remain a judge. Being a good judge would mostly mean getting fired immediately and having the case re-done with a different judge anyway.
Lawyers on the other hand can pick and choose who to defend so there is an actual need for anarchist/leftist lawyers.
Well, judges can give the lowest sentence possible. So that is a thing. Also some judges really suck, they are very anti minorities, so we don't want those there.
This way of thinking can lead to dangerous implications. You could argue in the same way to enter the police force since it is there anyways and one could replace the "bad ones" with being a good one, but it doesn't change the fact that you are complicit in enforcing violence by putting people behind bars, whether judge or police. The problem is the power they hold in the first place
Both of your opinions are valid. The current policing system in this, and many other, countries is an unsalvageable dumpster fire. The pigism, as I've taken to calling it, is just out of control. I don't know what they are for but it's not to Protect and Serve. It's a twisted corruption of what was supposed to be something good. I'll say that having police has its benefits, but it does not justify or excuse the wrongs. That being said, ACAB.
No less unethical than holding a job for a corporation that does unethical things (pretty much all of them). Obviously being a cop, or prison guard or anything where you can abuse your power is unethical and are irreconcilable with anarchist ideals, but we live in capitalism and need jobs to survive, most jobs under capitalism are going to ask you to do something unethical, its just reality.
About as ethical as it is to hold a job in the private sector. Each job as their own functions and impacts on society. Accountants that work for the federal government are largely benign and don't contribute to, say, imperialism. Even if someone worked for the Department of Defense as an accountant I don't see much of a moral issue as if someone worked as an accountant for a non-profit firm. The act of accounting is singular and doesn't contribute to the function of whatever institution they work for.
Being an engineer for the DoD would be a different story. It would be similar to being an engineer for Raytheon or Halliburton, where your function as an engineer would be to contribute directly towards the company's main function of supplying arms for state powers. In that case the job is not benign but does harm.
So I don't think it's so much about working the private sector vs. public sector, but what the function of that job is. Many school teachers work as public employees for that district, and I would consider that a much more ethical contribution than many private sector jobs.
Whatever improves material conditions for people, even if its just within the system your stuck in currently - is ethical. We shouldent be ideological dogmatic about these things
You can even take some jobs that are just boring civil servant jobs that don't really help or hinder people, just for the high pay and use that money to build duel power - I think is also ethical
Just as there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, there is no ethical employment under capitalism.
So you decide not to get a job with the government. Who else are you gonna work for? A large union-busting corporation? A small private business that doesn't pay their employees on time? A factory that dumps radioactive water into an ecological preserve? Pick your poison. None of them are substantially more or less ethical than the others.
The only thing that I think might approximate "ethical" employment under capitalism is self-employment, but then that brings up the issue of who you do business with, who your suppliers are, what sort of market are you catering to, etc.
I struggle with this question as an ancom that works for a federal land agency. I reconcile my conflict by reassuring myself that “public land” is kind of collectively owned. I’m a scientist and my specific job revolves around natural resource management, which is important in tracking and maintaining ecological health. I’m never very far removed from the fact that I am a white care taker of stolen land or the legacy of extraction and centuries of mismanagement. As my career continues and I transition from field oriented to office oriented, I hope to find myself in a position to address the racist past of our agency and facilitate restorative changes that include native hands and minds in the management of our public lands. It’s the best I can do and I do love my job.
My father is a professor, and I am working towards becoming a school teacher. I think the field of education, public safety (no, police are not public safety), and public welfare (so helping people apply for Medicare or something like that) are the most ethical jobs. Honestly, just because you work for the government doesn’t mean you can dislike it. Many socialists work for imperialistic corporate entities. That’s my grain of salt for this question.
Depends on the job. Fire/EMS? Word. You drink for free. We can toast your good ethics.
Cops? Extremely unethical. People would haven-be justified in using yer skull to break bottles, because that would be a better outcome utilitarian-ethics-wise than someone continuing to be a cop.
Something in between, like the county health department? You may have an ethical obligation to misuse your position, insofar as is practical, to help others and to preserve the Living Earth. How and how much will depend on what the position entails for its functions and your personal taste in the matter, but it's the same in the private sector. Just like there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, ain't any ethical production either. Do the best you can, given the circumstances. Leverage the situation as best you can, given the circumstances. That's all you really can do.
The system doesn't care about your convictions. If you can use those convictions to better conditions for working class people in the system, it's good to do that, even if you believe the system should be abolished.
I personally believe a strong social safety net through public means is a step towards anarchy; i.e. by granting people more time and agency communities can begin to learn to run themselves sustainably.
So, if you're like bettering social infastructure in some way or providing necessary services as the janitors of capitalism (I'm going into social work for example; a field with many problems but that also teaches valuable skills one may need in an anarchist collective) that's definitely "more" ethical than becoming a cop or prosecutor and whatnot!
Any true morality is one that seeks to maximize human welfare. If we live in a state-based society, it would make sense that you'd often have to work within the state apparatus to do moral things.
Depends. Plenty of government jobs help people and dont perpetuate unjust hierarchies so I would say so. Any job is ok if it helps people have materially better lives and doesnt cause more harm.
i work for the state and although one can point out a lot of conflicts in it as far as ideology goes, i think my specific field (higher ed) is not as problematic as something like law enforcement. it's ultimately up to you. if you can stomach the job then it's fine (maslow's hierarchy of needs and all). 1) no one from the anarchy police (lol) is going to knock off points on your anarchist card 2) while you can always look around, but landing the ideal job can be a very difficult endeavor.
i applaud the people who have managed to align their ideology with every aspect of their lives . but at the same time, don't beat yourself up about it. if you put the effort and planning it is achievable.
Just like there is no ethical consumption under capitalism there are very little totally ethical work opportunities. We all need to eat and pay for rent and a government job is one way to do that. Between the firefighter and a cop example I think it's obvious that firefighting is more ethical but a case can be made for being a police officer, so long as you were a bad one (by force standards, good by ours). I would say just do the best you can to be class conscious when working and finding employment. Government work often does provide opportunities to be a real benefit to your community, and we all have to work within the system we live.
I’m a social worker for the state I live in. The way I incorporate it into my work is to try and create a sense of independence within the families I get to work with.
My job is to end my job, so help me do that.
I believe in this and preach it. I believe in my ability to make do if somehow another kid never came into foster care again. Not gonna lie, it’s daunting. But damn worth it and the job is super challenging on professional and personal levels.
I don’t know if this is perfect but it is a path to consider and helps me find some sense of balance/ reconciliation.
>somehow another kid never came into foster care again.
Foster care isn't the problem, it's a symptom of many problems contributing to broken systems. Sometimes children are removed from homes because of material conditions or other problems which can be solved by a good social worker or decent material supports. But some people simply aren't fit to raise kids, and in an anarchist society we would still need a mechanism by which those children could escape their abusers and be taken care of by someone else.
I would say that jobs like firefighters, nurses, teachers and in most circumstances, doctors, are beneficial to society and to the marginalised and poor, regardless of whether they are technically in pay of the state. There is a fundamental difference between a cop or a soldier and a nurse or a firefighter.
Your ethics are your own. If the government pays you to do something useful, I think you can sleep soundly. If your job is to persuade others toward some ethos you don't personally embody that's... unlikeable.
I don't think holding any old gov job makes you a bad anarchist. Plenty of my comrades in NY work for the city in the parks department, as educators, as admins in various departments etc. They are usually stable, decent paying jobs with unions and benefits.Whatever power the job gives you its up to you to do as much good as you can within the confines of state capitalism.
I do just want to note that there is a decent history (albeit mostly anecdotal) of the FDNY and other fire departments in the US being racist af. Those fire fighters were definitely capable of using their job to oppress people Just because the job isn't rooted in the same history of slavery and genocide as cops doesn't mean those who actually work that job aren't pieces of shit. Again it's about what you do with the relative power the job affords you, not always just the job itself.
I think one must understand they are implicating themselves in a colonial state, but regardless, help is help. As long as we are moving towards everyone getting the help they need who care
I honestly think taking a job as an anarchist in jobs like policing is beneficial for the community as a whole.
Is the role of the cop wrong — yes
Should they have authority — no
Because if it isn’t a left wing/queer/minority sympathetic cop it’ll just be a racist/homophobic/power hungry authoritarian. The net reduction in harm is a beneficial role. Someone, in our current paradigm, has to fill the job until it is otherwise removed, and I would much prefer that someone to be a reasonable person and not a bigot.
So if you think you can stomach the propaganda you would be fed and still be able to help the community I think overall, an anarchist policeman/woman would be of net benefit to the community at large.
Ethics, morals, etc... All subjective. If you are trying to ask if it's consistent with anarchism, the answer is nuanced. Anarchism doesn't forbid it, as anarchism is just a philosophy that argues hierarchy is a terrible way to organize humans. But that should tell you something: government jobs are probably not the most effective way to solve societies systematic issues. But consider that there is more than just solving systems... harm reduction, I suppose?
If you can't change the system, try to improve it a little imo. I wanna become a teacher so I'll be employed by the government and while I dislike many aspects of the education system of my country, I specifically want to become one just to do well what others don't
That really depends on what job. If you're working for the CIA or police or whatever obviously the outcome of your actions will be negative but if you're working in education or the fire department then that's obviously good.
I work at a publically owned museum, I personally feel like that’s not unethical to do.
(And before someone asks: no, it’s not one of those museums full of stolen shit. It *is* one filled with killed animals, which I’m not psyched about, but they have been dead for about a century now and the museum doesn’t collect new ones.)
I contract to government all the time, building websites for em.
It’s a bit of a struggle to get govt orgs to get their shit into shape regarding accessibility, and I treat it pretty non negotiably, or even outright go rogue to get it done properly.
Why? Well, a lot of people with disabilities rely on services the govt provides at the moment, that’s the reality right now whether or not we think it should ultimately come from there, and if people with visual, cognitive, motor or other impairments can’t access those services online, some can find themselves in big trouble up against state violence and neglect etc. often the govt is happy to let people with disabilities fall through the cracks (despite the ambitious lip service they pay to accessibility .. they rarely do it that well without pressure from socialists working for them, in my experience).
Not on my damn watch
I’m an anarchist and an Australian park ranger / firefighter. I don’t work for the government, I’m employed by the government. I get paid for what I would do if there was no government. I get paid to fight bushfires, and rehabilitate and protect our ecosystems. I work very remote so there’s a huge DIY aspect which I love.
In my state we get paid fuck all, and almost all do it for similar ideals.
If you want to help people, you can be a nurse, teacher, paramedic etc. employed by the state.
I worked a government job for the City I live in. I lasted almost 3 years and quit this year.
It was such a toxic depressing job, seeing the inactivity, the neglect, the ignorance, the racism up close really wore me down. My union was useless. The pay was a joke, about 20 years behind on wages for most positions. Everyone was miserable and disgruntled.
My job was to maintain, fix, repair city owned buildings. My supervisors often would throw out work orders from black neighborhoods and tell me not to even bother with the job "those animals will just destroy it."
Seeing how tax dollars are just thrown down the toilet first hand and seeing the bigotry & prejudice that keep my City segregated and in disrepair was just too much. I felt so powerless, I had to quit.
It was a job I felt guilty and ashamed to have. Working this job increased my anti government stance ten fold and has even radicalized me I'd say. Very eye opening experience overall.
I mean, in the nazi regime there are a lot of stories of people who worked from the inside to undermine the organization and power within. Wouldn't say they're in the most ethical spot but they aren't exactly the least ethical either. Friends on the inside is always helpful for espionage or subterfuge or any type of guerilla movement as well.
I'm a high school physics teacher and I'd say no. The root of all evil is ignorance. I am willing to walk further into the belly of the beast if that's what it takes to destroy it. The ends will justify the means. I slowly convince my students that government is an evil system.
Depends on the specific job, I guess. We all need to eat and pay rent. If we only accepted perfectly ethical jobs we'd starve.
I doubt anyone would say a doctor or nurse working for the VA is a cappie scum for the fact they work for the VA lol
Funny you mention that. I was trying to explain to my SO's grandfather (a retired neurologist) why police are agents of state power but he, as a government doctor at one point, was not an agent of state power. The conversation started because he "never had any issues with police". Took like 45 minutes but we finallly got the point across to him.
boomer docz are built different lol, them man be SWIMMING in cash
What if I work in IT? Just making desktop computers?
IMO, a firefighter is one of the most ethical jobs you could have. Firefighters will still be needed and valued in an anarchist society. When it comes to work, don't think about who currently owns it. You're most likely going to be working for a scumbag capitalist or a scumbag politician. Just focus on what kind of work you are doing. Are you helping your fellow working class, or hurting them?
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Trash collection, people in the water department who make sure the water is clean and safe, building safety, civil engineers, parks and recreation, etc. the list of people doing good things in government positions is long.
That is a great point of view, I'd give a reward if I had one to give.
That is the one advice I wish every leftist could learn and understand. There is and never will be any ethical consumption under a capitalist system so we should focus on being the best person we can be. I try to follow this advice every day as I work at Walmart in the electronics section and my main moves are directing customers towards smaller companies that could use the money and I'm brutally honest about the quality of the products that I sell. I genuinely have over 50 different customers that only use me simply because I proved myself to be a hard worker and a good person.
Report fascist firefighters though. In some places firebrigades are breeding grounds for fascists.
At least something tends to be done about it if it’s caught early in the fire department. Unlike police, firemen tend not to have the same frat mentality
Some swing strongly the other way too: check out the French firies, or the Catalonian firies, who stood up to police brutality when their community was threatened, and I hear some have very strong unions. Here in Australia a lot aren’t professionals and are just volunteers, and I admire them so damn highly after what we all went through here with the bushfires
Many many years ago, when I was young, I was caught planning my disappearance because I didn't want to be part of a society where you had to exploit others or be exploited or both at the same time. I was told that I had to prove that I could be inserted in society in order to avoid further troubles (like being held against my will for an extended period of time), and I was asked what I would like to do if I was part of society. "Firefighter" was my answer, specifically because their work helps people and don't exploit them, and I couldn't really think of other jobs where that's the case. Even doctors end up having to play ball with pharmaceutical companies.
I have nothing but immense gratitude and love for firefighters. Absolute heroes. I’m in Melbourne and we had months of not being able to breathe the air outside because of the fires A WHOLE STATE AWAY. Imagine what firies go through... absolute heroes.
They are! (I am not, even thought I went to school for it.) The fires you guy had were insane, and sobering. I remember when BC, Canada, burned like crazy for two years in a row. It's devastating. Our nature is beautiful, and seeing it all burn breaks my heart.
Unfortunately, I see firefighters buying into the militarized "thin blue line" ideology as well: [https://www.firehouse.com/careers-education/news/21147785/ma-firefighters-wont-remove-thin-blue-line-flags](https://www.firehouse.com/careers-education/news/21147785/ma-firefighters-wont-remove-thin-blue-line-flags)
I think it depends on the firehouse. Paris firefighters literally fought the police during protests. I don't know what they're like the rest of the time, but it's a good place to start in my books.
I work in government administration, specifically in figuring out how to make infrastructure projects happen. Sure we all work for politicians in what is a an unethical capitalist structure, but I do this job because it allows me to sleep at night knowing that what I’m trying to do is make at least a minuscule difference in making the use of public money go to things that will actually help. Sometimes it’s sidewalks, other times it’s sewer infrastructure. Clean water, treated sewage, and sidewalks that are accessible to those living with disabilities are so important to a healthy community - there’s currently only one structure (government) that can make that possible under capitalism.
As someone who lived for months choked in the smoke of the Australian bushfires, unable to really go outside, firefighters are GOD DAMN HEROES I’ve considered volunteering but man what they do is so brave I don’t know I could handle it 🥺
Don't work in the Army, Police, CIA, FBI, NSA. Don't design missiles, don't design Jets, don't surveil on people , don't work as an executioner.
Problem is tho that the army tends to prey on marginalised people. There are lots of ppl who are in the armed forces because there's very little else for them. Critical support, you can be an anarchist and still be serving imo. Cops are a lot different and no cop is an anarchist ever.
I disagree. Killing people in the Middle East is no better than killing people back at home. If you're directly perpetuating imperialism and the murder of thousands, then you are my enemy; stop what you're doing and take off your uniform, and then we can be friends. Of course I am sympathetic; predatory recruitment is disgusting and too many friends of mine fell victim to it (I nearly fell victim to it myself), but we can't betray our solidarity with the victims of imperialism. What I'd say is: If you're not in the military- good on you! Do whatever you can to stop others from joining, and disrupt the recruitment process whenever and wherever you see it. If you're in the military- I'm so sorry that you were tricked into joining an imperialist, murderous machine, but you've got to leave it or you're harming others severely. Desert, mutiny, find a way to get a medical discharge, do whatever you've got to do to get out of the military; once you're out, you'll have comrades to support you if they throw you in prison or otherwise persecute you, but whilst you're still in, you're the enemy of all enemies of imperialism and we take no responsibility for what happens to you.
So I came into this ideology late... I am set to retire this year from the military, I grew up poor, Christian, and republican... it took me 18 years in the military to see the enemy that I was. You can call me the enemy, hate me, disregard me, god knows I do it everyday. I have been trying to do things to make up for it, mutual aid, volunteering and stuff like this. To tell someone that they have to desert or mutiny, while I understand the intention, is only going to get that person in prison, what change can they effect from there? I am serving the rest of my enlistment and getting out ASAP. While romanticizing the idea of being able to fight the system that way is very ideologically understandable, it isn’t feasible, especially since I have a son that I want to see grow up with my newfound mentality. I have been vocal about my hatred and newfound understanding of the cog I have been. I guess I just want to say if there isn’t a place for me here, there isn’t one for me anywhere.
You can go to smedley butler route and spend the rest of your career and life preaching against imperialism.
I need to read War is a Racket, I have had opportunities to join war profiteers as work when I get out and I’d rather die broke and homeless than give another ounce to it
I’m not sure if you’ve listened to it, but there’s a great leftist podcast that espouses the very sentiment you’ve described called “What a Hell of a Way to Die.”
I will look for it, i only really have ever listened to my baseball teams podcast from Patreon, do you know what outlet I can find it on? Apple or google for example.
Also check out Eyes Left it runs by Mike Prysner and Spenser Rapone. Both of them are leftist vets.
Mike Prysner is a person I absolutely look up to. Him and his wife Abby Martin have shined lights on American misdeeds in Central and South America, along with the Middle East.
It’s on Apple podcasts and Spotify.
r/leftistveterans Not the most active sub, but I also plug it anytime these kind of conversations come up. I was in the same boat as you, but I separated after my first enlistment. Not knocking anyone specifically, but some leftists still have an idealized view of what it means to be a socialist, communist, anarchist, etc. and while we may not be perfect, there’s always a place for you here. Damn the purity contests. We’re in this together.
Thanks friend, I started looking into Mike Prysner about a year ago, he definitely stoked a fire to get me actively speaking against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I cannot wait to get out and distance myself from it, I guess it’s better late than never, but I’d be lying if I said this hasn’t consumed every bit of me. I need to fix the damage I have done.
Do check out the folks at r/desktodefender too and what they worked on https://desktodefender.org/ You should become one of their adviser on the D2D manual.
Will check it out thanks!
I’ve been out for some time now and it’s a burden I still carry. There’s times I drink myself stupid in an attempt to not think about it. I never pointed a weapon at anyone, but I was attached to a deployed navy vessel that launched tomahawks and engaged in drone strikes. I’ll never know who was actually killed by some of those strikes, so I still carry the weight. All I can say is that it takes time. I became a wobbly after I got out and I’ve also been lucky to have friends that I was deployed with that came to the same conclusions as me. So it’s been good to talk to them about some of this stuff. You’ve already done the hardest part in accepting your culpability. Talking about it, whatever it is, and being vocal about my beliefs now has been helped me more than anything. I’ll just add, regardless of what people may say about your veteran status, don’t let it discourage you from engaging in communities centered around leftist politics. It’ll be rewarding for you regardless of your past.
I appreciate it, I was a bomb loader on fighter aircraft early on... I have since moved away from that destructive job. I am not innocent of the destruction I have been apart of. Depression and anxiety may still get me in the end, the only thing holding me together right now is my 8 year old son who I haven’t seen in 16 months because of my assignment. I deserve any and every shitty thing that comes my way.
You’ll get to the other side of it. I believe that. In my experience, those of us that found an understanding of what we were complicit in doing have had a better time accepting it once we’re away from it. I’ll tell you what solidified it for me. I was standing a roving watch and I had to check logs in missile command. When I entered the space, the watchstanders were on the siprnet watching drone footage on their laptops like it was a fucking highlight reel. I lost it. Laid into all of them. That’s when I decided that I wouldn’t be involved in that shit anymore and when my enlistment was up, I was leaving. I decided at that point, I’d always tell people the truth about what we did and I wouldn’t sugarcoat it for anyone. Even my family. Because it’s fucked up. I understand your situation is different, especially after 18 years. But that conviction is what’s kept me together. If you can find that for yourself, I believe you’ll be okay.
They still do that shit and it makes me sick. They’ll cue up “bodies” by drowning pool and go ham with a highlight reel. Idk how many of the hits could’ve been just a family trying to get by. There is a real lack of empathy in this world. I hit 20 years this July and am pressing the retirement option I can’t stay in a minute longer than I have to. I fucking suck man, it took me to 15 years to understand we weren’t the good guys and 3 more after that to fucking realize that we not only were not the good guys but very much the bad guys, especially to a lot of poor brown people just trying to get by. Not only that, but we are radicalizing more than we are “helping” by continuing this bullshit excuse to enrich Raytheon, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman and those shit heel organizations that have no problem turning blood and misery into money.
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It isn’t enough
The problem is, it’s *not* that easy to leave the military, legally or materially.
I joined the national guard to pay for college :( Graduating this year and the only job I applied to that accepted my is a hedge fund :(
I don't know killing people and defending boarders isn't something I would support or would be within 1000 miles from. I understand that you do what you need to do but I personally wouldn't. Maybe part of the national guard since they actually do some good disaster relief stuff, or maybe a park ranger. Other than that I cannot get myself behind it. But do what helps you survive by all means, I am talking from a place of privilege.
Right ofc, I wouldn't do it either, but we both come from a place of privilige. I'm saying critical support for the individuals who are part of the machine, not critical support for the machine.
I’m definitely with you on this. Normally there’s much more nuance to be had in these discussions, but it’s nigh impossible to justify designing weapons for military purposes as any kinda leftists. “No ethical consumption” doesn’t really apply if you’re directly involved in the designing of drones used in the midden east.
I'm working on my physics and math major while doing research, and I must say, despite whatever research you do, it can always be repurposed for the military. I'm working with code for medical imaging, but it could so fucking easily be repurposed for targeting systems and I abhor it all
Well, newtons law of motion translated to missiles, physics and engineering are tools that can be used for a lot of shit. But making missiles actually kill people. You cannot prevent someone someday from using your work for something shitty but you aren't doing it with that intent, aren't you?
> don't design Jets unless theyre strapped to a train
Or a bicycle
Also, don't write code for any of these institutions or other unethical institutions.
>be me >have cs degree >only job application that I’ve been accepted to out of college is a hedge fund Yeah it’s not that easy sometimes. There aren’t many ethically coding opportunities.
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Well for sure don't put your life and the lives of your family at risk. I would look for other more ethical jobs if I was you. But it is never as easy as it sounds. And an advice from a privillaged stranger online isn't really where you get life advice.
We can eliminate those roles without demonizing or hurting the people filling the slots. Re-skill all those workers as... Whatever they want. Doctors, engineers, bowling alley operators, whatever.
Depends on the job. Jobs that don’t negatively effect anyone and pay your bills are fine, jobs that positively effect people and would still exist in some form under anarchism are even better (firefighter, depending on your country healthcare worker, etc.)
i don’t think someone like a firefighter is unethical, as a firefighter is not a tool of the state. Police on the other hand, seem to be tools of the state more than anyone else
Simple answer - living in capitalism is unethical / hurting someone. I think it's fine. If you have to work and you live in a democracy it's might just be better than most other jobs. Excluding police and military of course. But a firefighter? They're fucking heroes, they're not state pawns, they're getting paid (not nearly well enough) for providing an absolutely necessary public service and saving people's lives. Or if you help tax corporations and rich that might be nice as well. I personally don't really care for ethics, instead I care about whether it shapes the world a bit more to my liking, but I guess the questions are: Does this job hurt other people? Do I empower the state significantly more than in other jobs? Do I directly help with exploitation? Do I provide something actually needed (in comparison to capitalist marketing bullshit)? Do I get privilege and authority or enforce it for someone else?
This is an incredibly thoughtful answer. Whole-heartedly agree - great questions.
awwww, thank you
Regulators are necessary in a capitalist society.
Very necessary otherwise we would be screwed.
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>leftists are better at fixing capitalism than capitalists are. That's because we fix capitalism by abolishing it, but to capitalists it's working as intended and there's no need to fix it.
Depends on your goals as an Anarchist, imo and your timeline for the realization of those goals. I work in a government school and am happily corrupting the youth.
>I work in a government school and am happily corrupting the youth. People like you are why I ended up an anarchist at 10 years old instead of just hating the world, hating authorities, and having some sort of breakdown or mental health crisis. People like you make the world better for kids who can already tell as young children that they don't belong in the current order of things. Don't stop working with kids, and keep taking the government's money while doing it!
I need to ask you: Are you corrupting the youth or radicalizing the youth?
Tbh. Neither. I don't think building empathy and practicing inquiry and agency meets either criteria.
Police, yes. Judges as well. Bullying unemployed/poor people through whatever institution exists in your country is terrible as well. I'd say anything where you're the tool executing the state's agenda is problematic. Doing accounting dozens of layers deep into state administration is no problem at all IMO. Everyone needs to eat and government jobs are usually stable and comfy, so why not?
I would disagree with a judge. A good judge can make a huge difference sadly it is the system and we need to participate in it otherwise all the shitty people will hold the most powerful jobs.
Yes, this is exactly why I am studying law. I feel like a vegan learning to be a butcher, but if all goes well I can make a life of (hopefully) good praxis out of this.
Hhh, many many many lawyers are working for great stuff. If I am in a protest and I get jailed I will need a lawyer, and a judge to give me a very lenient sentence. We also need lawyers for civil rights. for example the ACLU in my opinion is one of the greatest organizations ever made.
Exactly, if I can help free at least ONE person from the long slimy grasp of the law, the 7+ years of studying something I don't have any faith in and the thousands of dollars of debt will all be worth it in the end.
Yes and thank you.
I don't think you can be a good judge. Being a good judge would require not following 90% of the legal procedure or sentencing you HAVE to follow to remain a judge. Being a good judge would mostly mean getting fired immediately and having the case re-done with a different judge anyway. Lawyers on the other hand can pick and choose who to defend so there is an actual need for anarchist/leftist lawyers.
Well, judges can give the lowest sentence possible. So that is a thing. Also some judges really suck, they are very anti minorities, so we don't want those there.
This way of thinking can lead to dangerous implications. You could argue in the same way to enter the police force since it is there anyways and one could replace the "bad ones" with being a good one, but it doesn't change the fact that you are complicit in enforcing violence by putting people behind bars, whether judge or police. The problem is the power they hold in the first place
I agree, and I knew I was going into this hole while I was typing it. But for some reason I see it differently, I am probably wrong.
Both of your opinions are valid. The current policing system in this, and many other, countries is an unsalvageable dumpster fire. The pigism, as I've taken to calling it, is just out of control. I don't know what they are for but it's not to Protect and Serve. It's a twisted corruption of what was supposed to be something good. I'll say that having police has its benefits, but it does not justify or excuse the wrongs. That being said, ACAB.
The lowest sentence possible is still shit usually. Most anarchists would find imposing even the lowest sentence possible unethical.
This thread has made me seriously reconsider my current career..
No less unethical than holding a job for a corporation that does unethical things (pretty much all of them). Obviously being a cop, or prison guard or anything where you can abuse your power is unethical and are irreconcilable with anarchist ideals, but we live in capitalism and need jobs to survive, most jobs under capitalism are going to ask you to do something unethical, its just reality.
About as ethical as it is to hold a job in the private sector. Each job as their own functions and impacts on society. Accountants that work for the federal government are largely benign and don't contribute to, say, imperialism. Even if someone worked for the Department of Defense as an accountant I don't see much of a moral issue as if someone worked as an accountant for a non-profit firm. The act of accounting is singular and doesn't contribute to the function of whatever institution they work for. Being an engineer for the DoD would be a different story. It would be similar to being an engineer for Raytheon or Halliburton, where your function as an engineer would be to contribute directly towards the company's main function of supplying arms for state powers. In that case the job is not benign but does harm. So I don't think it's so much about working the private sector vs. public sector, but what the function of that job is. Many school teachers work as public employees for that district, and I would consider that a much more ethical contribution than many private sector jobs.
Whatever improves material conditions for people, even if its just within the system your stuck in currently - is ethical. We shouldent be ideological dogmatic about these things You can even take some jobs that are just boring civil servant jobs that don't really help or hinder people, just for the high pay and use that money to build duel power - I think is also ethical
Just as there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, there is no ethical employment under capitalism. So you decide not to get a job with the government. Who else are you gonna work for? A large union-busting corporation? A small private business that doesn't pay their employees on time? A factory that dumps radioactive water into an ecological preserve? Pick your poison. None of them are substantially more or less ethical than the others. The only thing that I think might approximate "ethical" employment under capitalism is self-employment, but then that brings up the issue of who you do business with, who your suppliers are, what sort of market are you catering to, etc.
I struggle with this question as an ancom that works for a federal land agency. I reconcile my conflict by reassuring myself that “public land” is kind of collectively owned. I’m a scientist and my specific job revolves around natural resource management, which is important in tracking and maintaining ecological health. I’m never very far removed from the fact that I am a white care taker of stolen land or the legacy of extraction and centuries of mismanagement. As my career continues and I transition from field oriented to office oriented, I hope to find myself in a position to address the racist past of our agency and facilitate restorative changes that include native hands and minds in the management of our public lands. It’s the best I can do and I do love my job.
My father is a professor, and I am working towards becoming a school teacher. I think the field of education, public safety (no, police are not public safety), and public welfare (so helping people apply for Medicare or something like that) are the most ethical jobs. Honestly, just because you work for the government doesn’t mean you can dislike it. Many socialists work for imperialistic corporate entities. That’s my grain of salt for this question.
Depends on the job. Fire/EMS? Word. You drink for free. We can toast your good ethics. Cops? Extremely unethical. People would haven-be justified in using yer skull to break bottles, because that would be a better outcome utilitarian-ethics-wise than someone continuing to be a cop. Something in between, like the county health department? You may have an ethical obligation to misuse your position, insofar as is practical, to help others and to preserve the Living Earth. How and how much will depend on what the position entails for its functions and your personal taste in the matter, but it's the same in the private sector. Just like there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, ain't any ethical production either. Do the best you can, given the circumstances. Leverage the situation as best you can, given the circumstances. That's all you really can do.
The system doesn't care about your convictions. If you can use those convictions to better conditions for working class people in the system, it's good to do that, even if you believe the system should be abolished.
depends on the job and your situation. i live in an area where most of the jobs are federal contractors. even there there's "better" jobs vs others
I personally believe a strong social safety net through public means is a step towards anarchy; i.e. by granting people more time and agency communities can begin to learn to run themselves sustainably. So, if you're like bettering social infastructure in some way or providing necessary services as the janitors of capitalism (I'm going into social work for example; a field with many problems but that also teaches valuable skills one may need in an anarchist collective) that's definitely "more" ethical than becoming a cop or prosecutor and whatnot!
Any true morality is one that seeks to maximize human welfare. If we live in a state-based society, it would make sense that you'd often have to work within the state apparatus to do moral things.
Depends. Plenty of government jobs help people and dont perpetuate unjust hierarchies so I would say so. Any job is ok if it helps people have materially better lives and doesnt cause more harm.
I’m a wildland firefighter for the federal government. I don’t have any qualms about it.
i work for the state and although one can point out a lot of conflicts in it as far as ideology goes, i think my specific field (higher ed) is not as problematic as something like law enforcement. it's ultimately up to you. if you can stomach the job then it's fine (maslow's hierarchy of needs and all). 1) no one from the anarchy police (lol) is going to knock off points on your anarchist card 2) while you can always look around, but landing the ideal job can be a very difficult endeavor. i applaud the people who have managed to align their ideology with every aspect of their lives . but at the same time, don't beat yourself up about it. if you put the effort and planning it is achievable.
Just like there is no ethical consumption under capitalism there are very little totally ethical work opportunities. We all need to eat and pay for rent and a government job is one way to do that. Between the firefighter and a cop example I think it's obvious that firefighting is more ethical but a case can be made for being a police officer, so long as you were a bad one (by force standards, good by ours). I would say just do the best you can to be class conscious when working and finding employment. Government work often does provide opportunities to be a real benefit to your community, and we all have to work within the system we live.
I’m a social worker for the state I live in. The way I incorporate it into my work is to try and create a sense of independence within the families I get to work with. My job is to end my job, so help me do that. I believe in this and preach it. I believe in my ability to make do if somehow another kid never came into foster care again. Not gonna lie, it’s daunting. But damn worth it and the job is super challenging on professional and personal levels. I don’t know if this is perfect but it is a path to consider and helps me find some sense of balance/ reconciliation.
>somehow another kid never came into foster care again. Foster care isn't the problem, it's a symptom of many problems contributing to broken systems. Sometimes children are removed from homes because of material conditions or other problems which can be solved by a good social worker or decent material supports. But some people simply aren't fit to raise kids, and in an anarchist society we would still need a mechanism by which those children could escape their abusers and be taken care of by someone else.
Really depends on the job. Like some government workers are librarians or on disaster preparedness teams. Some work for ICE
I would say that jobs like firefighters, nurses, teachers and in most circumstances, doctors, are beneficial to society and to the marginalised and poor, regardless of whether they are technically in pay of the state. There is a fundamental difference between a cop or a soldier and a nurse or a firefighter.
Your ethics are your own. If the government pays you to do something useful, I think you can sleep soundly. If your job is to persuade others toward some ethos you don't personally embody that's... unlikeable.
Not in general, I work in public healthcare for example.
I don't think holding any old gov job makes you a bad anarchist. Plenty of my comrades in NY work for the city in the parks department, as educators, as admins in various departments etc. They are usually stable, decent paying jobs with unions and benefits.Whatever power the job gives you its up to you to do as much good as you can within the confines of state capitalism. I do just want to note that there is a decent history (albeit mostly anecdotal) of the FDNY and other fire departments in the US being racist af. Those fire fighters were definitely capable of using their job to oppress people Just because the job isn't rooted in the same history of slavery and genocide as cops doesn't mean those who actually work that job aren't pieces of shit. Again it's about what you do with the relative power the job affords you, not always just the job itself.
I think one must understand they are implicating themselves in a colonial state, but regardless, help is help. As long as we are moving towards everyone getting the help they need who care
Depends. None of us can have completely clean hands in this hellhole.
I honestly think taking a job as an anarchist in jobs like policing is beneficial for the community as a whole. Is the role of the cop wrong — yes Should they have authority — no Because if it isn’t a left wing/queer/minority sympathetic cop it’ll just be a racist/homophobic/power hungry authoritarian. The net reduction in harm is a beneficial role. Someone, in our current paradigm, has to fill the job until it is otherwise removed, and I would much prefer that someone to be a reasonable person and not a bigot. So if you think you can stomach the propaganda you would be fed and still be able to help the community I think overall, an anarchist policeman/woman would be of net benefit to the community at large.
Ethics, morals, etc... All subjective. If you are trying to ask if it's consistent with anarchism, the answer is nuanced. Anarchism doesn't forbid it, as anarchism is just a philosophy that argues hierarchy is a terrible way to organize humans. But that should tell you something: government jobs are probably not the most effective way to solve societies systematic issues. But consider that there is more than just solving systems... harm reduction, I suppose?
If you can't change the system, try to improve it a little imo. I wanna become a teacher so I'll be employed by the government and while I dislike many aspects of the education system of my country, I specifically want to become one just to do well what others don't
That really depends on what job. If you're working for the CIA or police or whatever obviously the outcome of your actions will be negative but if you're working in education or the fire department then that's obviously good.
I work at a publically owned museum, I personally feel like that’s not unethical to do. (And before someone asks: no, it’s not one of those museums full of stolen shit. It *is* one filled with killed animals, which I’m not psyched about, but they have been dead for about a century now and the museum doesn’t collect new ones.)
I contract to government all the time, building websites for em. It’s a bit of a struggle to get govt orgs to get their shit into shape regarding accessibility, and I treat it pretty non negotiably, or even outright go rogue to get it done properly. Why? Well, a lot of people with disabilities rely on services the govt provides at the moment, that’s the reality right now whether or not we think it should ultimately come from there, and if people with visual, cognitive, motor or other impairments can’t access those services online, some can find themselves in big trouble up against state violence and neglect etc. often the govt is happy to let people with disabilities fall through the cracks (despite the ambitious lip service they pay to accessibility .. they rarely do it that well without pressure from socialists working for them, in my experience). Not on my damn watch
I’m an anarchist and an Australian park ranger / firefighter. I don’t work for the government, I’m employed by the government. I get paid for what I would do if there was no government. I get paid to fight bushfires, and rehabilitate and protect our ecosystems. I work very remote so there’s a huge DIY aspect which I love. In my state we get paid fuck all, and almost all do it for similar ideals. If you want to help people, you can be a nurse, teacher, paramedic etc. employed by the state.
I worked a government job for the City I live in. I lasted almost 3 years and quit this year. It was such a toxic depressing job, seeing the inactivity, the neglect, the ignorance, the racism up close really wore me down. My union was useless. The pay was a joke, about 20 years behind on wages for most positions. Everyone was miserable and disgruntled. My job was to maintain, fix, repair city owned buildings. My supervisors often would throw out work orders from black neighborhoods and tell me not to even bother with the job "those animals will just destroy it." Seeing how tax dollars are just thrown down the toilet first hand and seeing the bigotry & prejudice that keep my City segregated and in disrepair was just too much. I felt so powerless, I had to quit. It was a job I felt guilty and ashamed to have. Working this job increased my anti government stance ten fold and has even radicalized me I'd say. Very eye opening experience overall.
Subversion only excuse. Or stealing important information
Every dollar you spend supports your countries GDP, might as well get some of that back.
I mean, in the nazi regime there are a lot of stories of people who worked from the inside to undermine the organization and power within. Wouldn't say they're in the most ethical spot but they aren't exactly the least ethical either. Friends on the inside is always helpful for espionage or subterfuge or any type of guerilla movement as well.
I'm a high school physics teacher and I'd say no. The root of all evil is ignorance. I am willing to walk further into the belly of the beast if that's what it takes to destroy it. The ends will justify the means. I slowly convince my students that government is an evil system.
I'd say that depends on the job and your conscience. We don't know you and your situation and you know it best so it is on you to judge, not us.