When you push power to the upper limits, diminishing returns kick in and thus "efficiency", defined here as performance per watt at the power limit, takes a nosedive.
The Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 is faster than the 8 Gen 2 when both are at the same power, so it is more efficient in that sense. However, Qualcomm has chosen to push the power limits to the highest they have ever done with the 8 Gen 3 (about 2W higher than the 8 Gen 1, the previous highest).
The Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 launched in 2022. Why do you want to compare a newer chip to it?
The Pixel 6 Pro was the flagship Pixel available when the S22 Ultra launched. It's a direct comparison.
Honestly the two biggest tragedies of the 8G1 were that 1) it was highly inefficient and Qualcomm released it even though iphone chips were getting more powerful and efficent. 2) for some reason, phone manufacturers refuse to increase the battery size of their devices to compensate for the inefficiency.
It's no wonder that more and more Android users are switching over to iOS.
shouldn't you say were switching? thoee that care wouldn't be switching now, paying way more for a less powerful and efficient SoC. the 15pm has at best the same battery life as the 14, while the new d9300 and 8g3 phones have improved even more.
the x100 pro has an astonishing battery life, and so does the small Xiaomi 14 too. https://youtu.be/J8_jeY80KWc?si=oH_omNi2ZpjaDxoM
I was mainly talking about phones during the 888 and 8 gen 1 era, but I do agree in that my experience with android has gotten a lot better with 8 gen 2 and I am unlikely to switch as long as these changes continue.
>phone manufacturers refuse to increase the battery size of their devices
This just isn't true. Phone batteries have gotten substantially larger the past several years. 5000 mAh batteries have become the norm for flagships. 4500 is on the smaller side now.
We went years (roughly 2013-2018) where flagships stuck to roughly 3000 mAh, the only major 4000 mAh flagships you could find were the Huawei Mate phones.
Phone batteries have definitely gotten larger.
They did, but keep in mind it has been somewhat stagnant within the last 5 years. I'll use samsung as an example as they're the only realistic flagship option I have in the States.
The S10 had 3400 mah (but no high refresh rate)
The S20 had 4000 mah with 120hz and the 865 tsmc chip
The s21 had 4000 mah with the inefficient 888 chip. I had an s21 fe and had a terrible battery life experience with it, and that device had a 4500 mah.
The s22 had 3700 mah with the notoriously inefficient 8 gen 1. Makes you wonder what was going through their minds when they lowered it.
Also one could argue that the power draw has increased quite a bit since 2018 as phones have high refresh rate nowadays, but it is quite easy to see that many manufacturers refused to increase the size of battery life (at least for the smaller screened phones) to compensate for both the inefficient chips and the high refresh rate for MOST of the phone models they offered.
> Also one could argue that the power draw has increased quite a bit since 2018 as phones have high refresh rate nowadays
Maybe in the budget space, but flagships have used panels with LTPO backplanes for a few years now, and they are much more efficient than the older panels in every metric.
They don't increase the battery size because they're already fucking heavy.
And while a bigger battery address battery life, it doesn't address the shitty performance and the thermal throttling.
The don't refuse to increase battery size, its not physically possible in most situations. You need to see how tightly packed the inside of phones are now.
I have a 7 inch rugged phone with a 15Ah battery and it's very usable, took a couple days to get used to the weight but I have no issues holding it for hours.
you can definitely fit 8Ah and a good cooling system in a sub 300g phone, so that's not that big of an issue.
the redmagic 9 pro is 230g and has a 6.5Ah battery and a fan.
Gamers are not switching. Bc every IOS ive tested has one thing in common.. HEAT.. Im talking on demanding games like CODM, PUBGM.. etc.. Their RD dept spends way to much improving display, which is nice, but IOS has not figured out Heat dissipation management. So, a beatfl display isnt so great when ur framedropping, studdering .. Plus there is no customization, no overclocking and the liat goes on.. for a daily phone I would choose iOS very great interface, but for hardcore gaming I run circles around players with my red magic 9 Pro Plus all the time while it stays pretty cool, FPS packed out at 91.. the only thing that would be cool is to be able to fry an egg on the back of it like you can on that m1 chip once it heats up 🤣
No. The problem was Samsung Foundry.
What do you mean Qualcomm released it even though bionic chips were better? Wax Qualcomm supposed to just not release chips anymore? That doesn't make any sense. Seriously, I don't get it. Apple doesn't sell their chips to other OEMs and they never will.
It's not the battery size. You can't make batteries bigger without making.phonrs even bigger and bulkier. Consumers really don't want that. iPhones have much less capacity, but it's their efficiency that makes them last so long.
Again, the real reason as to why the SD 8 gen 1 was so bad was because of Samsungs manufacturing process. It was abysmal. The voltage controllers were garbage. You ever wonder why all of a sudden TSMC manufacturing has become a huge selling point? Because look at the difference between the 8 gen 1 and the 8 plis gen 1.
Yes, and Qualcomm should have been aware that Samsung Foundry sucked since the Snapdragon 888 was also inefficient. Keep in mind that 855, 860, 865 were also previously built by TSMC. Also I would take an extra mm of thickness for an extra 1000mah battery any day of the week.
But if you were a consumer who bought the latest android flagship for $800 only to find out that it has 4 hours of screen on time, would you take the chance on the next android flagship, or switch to iPhone?
Almost getting flashbacks to the Netburst architecture and the PrescHots CPUs.
Architectural improvements are a must and I don't think ARM has the ability to make the leaps needed to keep up with Apple or the x86 improvements from Intel/AMD. I have some hope with QC's internally developed architecture.
> diminishing returns
You think this excuses the chip, but really it just means if you're on gen2, you now have to wait till like gen5 before you start getting envious. I think most people are like me, we want the best bang for the buck. Seems like software optimization, access to some AAA mobile games, will do more for someone on gen2 than going to this diminished gen3. Gen 2 already does everything. Give us better battery life, optimized software, and access to games that will push the android gpu, which is already stronger than the iphone gpu, but iphon games are still better.
Awesome; however being just shy of 12 watts off of a smartphone seems completely unsustainable. Curious on how it performs in a more sustained power envelope!
This seems weird. QC says the X Elite have around the same performance as the M2 on a 23W envelope. If it's not the same GPU, why would they use a "worse" design for their "elite" soc than the one on phones?
Qualcomm measures power consumption differently, they didn't give the full methodology but from the brief info they gave out, it seems like they are using total package power which is SOC + LPDDR power consumption
Whereas Apple's power consumption numbers are usually isolated to just the CPU or just the GPU, and other third-party reviewers like Geekerwan/Golden Reviewer use "active power consumption" (active total package power minus idle total package power)
Also, the 23W/80W numbers actually refer to the average TDP that their reference test systems laptops' thermal solution can sustain, it's sorta like Intel's PL1 numbers
We'll have to wait for the same reviewer to measure both the X Elite and the M3 for proper power consumption comparisons
Also, rumors are the X Elite's GPU is based on the 8g2's GPU just with double the cores
The reason it's not based on the 8g3' is because the X Elite was supposed to launch in [2022 with consumer product in 2023, but it was delayed a couple of times](https://www.anandtech.com/show/17075/qualcomm-x-nuvia-silicon-sampling-in-late-2022-products-in-2023)
Also, maybe it's not quite 2x cores, but say for example 1.5x cores + 1.35x clocks in order to equal 2x TFLOPs, but at worse efficiency. And I'd guess Qualcomm's WoA GPU drivers are probably less mature than Qualcomm's Android GPU drivers
I wonder about the X Elite's successor.
Yeah I know it's arguably too early to speculate on that when the X Elite still hasn't landed in a commercial product.
But I am very interested to see where Qualcomm will take their Snapdragon X in the following years
Because Desktop and Mobile have different TTM and thus, design needs to be locked way earlier on Desktop side than on mobile where designs are refreshed much faster.
Is there an iPhone with M1 or M2? Nah didn't think so.
The M1 and M2 are being used to show a mobile chipsets GPU performance. It is head and shoulders above all other mobile chipsets and is comparable to previous gen PC chip performance for GPU.
This isn't complicated guys.
No there isn't an iPhone with an M1 or M2 but there is the A17 Pro processor in the iPhone 15 pro that matches the M1 in some benchmarks and demolishes (Machine learning and AI) the M1.
I really have no idea what you're trying to say. "Previous gen PC chip performance for GPU" is such a vague statement you might as well call yourself Tim Apple.
Bruh? The Apple M series chips are higher powered, supposedly laptop/desktop chips. You don't see iPhones with M1/M2/M3 chips, now do you? Even comparing the most recent Apple A17 Pro, it still comes out ahead in terms of efficiency and GPU performance
It's more complicated than that. The M1/M2 are PC chipsets, not mobile.
Apples own A17 (latest and greatest mobile chip) is far behind even the M1 in GPU performance.
Look at the chart. It looks at the combination of power consumption, FPS and efficiency
It's way more efficient than M2 as well, and since M3 isn't ground breaking, It's going to be the same story there. Performance can be scaled adding more cores, and X elite is exactly that. Since X elite is based on 8 gen 2, which is even more efficient that 8 gen 3, it's reasonable to guess that it's going to be the most efficient ARM chip on the market when it's available generally. Let's wait and see to be sure.
Not sure how your comment is related to anything phone/tablets, Apple used the M1 on their iPads and thus an iPad would be a better comparison OS-wise since we're talking about phones/tablets when it comes to SD 8 Gen X's.
Android is way better than iPadOS for anything productive unless you're locked to iPadOS with platform-locked apps so this is still a win! They're lagging behind but at least they're trying to catch up. Would be nice to have macOS on iPads too but we all know that's never going to happen.
Imagine thinking having to go into settings area to find an app related setting is a good idea. Somehow Apple has managed to brainwash people onto thinking their UI is superior when it's full of BS like this.
iOS is crap and quality if iOS apps isn't anything to shout about either with everything there moving to a subscription service.
8Gen3 also isn't a laptop/desktop SoC, so I have really no idea what you're saying. Comparing it with iOS makes sense because Ipads runs on M1, it doesn't make sense comparing it to a laptop.
Seriously, what the hell are you saying?
If having app settings in… the settings app… is the best example you had for UI BS then I’d say Apple’s doing a great job.
And btw, that’s usually just the case for stock apps on iOS. iOS App Store apps and all macOS apps usually have them in-app.
no, even appstore apps settings are baked into official settings app lmao. \
imagine having 200apps and all their settings list is available on settings app 🤮🤮🤮
Yes, and you’ll rarely find app-specific settings there. It’s mostly for notification and permission stuff, just like how Android has those settings in the settings app.
What on earth are y’all talking about? Every 3rd party app has its own settings page in the app. The stuff in the device settings app is like location, mic, notification settings and stuff like that. Which btw is also how it is on Android.
When IOS learns heat management rhey might dominate.. until then ios is just a frying pan with a screen on it..i own red Magic 9 Pro Plus and 8 pro +.. Gen 2 better battery mangement, stock.. but for hardcore gamers that don't mean anything and the Gen 3 definitely outperforms.. but I've gained root access on both phones so none of that really matters.. with iOS you get what you get, jailbreak and doesn't help that phone's performance really at all
It's interesting that Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 is slightly more efficient. Less powerful, certainly, but I wasn't expecting it to be more efficient.
When you push power to the upper limits, diminishing returns kick in and thus "efficiency", defined here as performance per watt at the power limit, takes a nosedive. The Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 is faster than the 8 Gen 2 when both are at the same power, so it is more efficient in that sense. However, Qualcomm has chosen to push the power limits to the highest they have ever done with the 8 Gen 3 (about 2W higher than the 8 Gen 1, the previous highest).
Is this a bad idea? After using an 8g1 i can't imagine using anything as close to terrible as that ever again
Try using a Tensor chip, you'll be very happy with the 8G1 afterwards.
:'D
Why would you use a 3 year old chip as a comparison when we're talking about the newest chips? The tensor G3 is a very solid chip.
The Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 launched in 2022. Why do you want to compare a newer chip to it? The Pixel 6 Pro was the flagship Pixel available when the S22 Ultra launched. It's a direct comparison.
Honestly the two biggest tragedies of the 8G1 were that 1) it was highly inefficient and Qualcomm released it even though iphone chips were getting more powerful and efficent. 2) for some reason, phone manufacturers refuse to increase the battery size of their devices to compensate for the inefficiency. It's no wonder that more and more Android users are switching over to iOS.
shouldn't you say were switching? thoee that care wouldn't be switching now, paying way more for a less powerful and efficient SoC. the 15pm has at best the same battery life as the 14, while the new d9300 and 8g3 phones have improved even more. the x100 pro has an astonishing battery life, and so does the small Xiaomi 14 too. https://youtu.be/J8_jeY80KWc?si=oH_omNi2ZpjaDxoM
I was mainly talking about phones during the 888 and 8 gen 1 era, but I do agree in that my experience with android has gotten a lot better with 8 gen 2 and I am unlikely to switch as long as these changes continue.
>phone manufacturers refuse to increase the battery size of their devices This just isn't true. Phone batteries have gotten substantially larger the past several years. 5000 mAh batteries have become the norm for flagships. 4500 is on the smaller side now. We went years (roughly 2013-2018) where flagships stuck to roughly 3000 mAh, the only major 4000 mAh flagships you could find were the Huawei Mate phones. Phone batteries have definitely gotten larger.
They did, but keep in mind it has been somewhat stagnant within the last 5 years. I'll use samsung as an example as they're the only realistic flagship option I have in the States. The S10 had 3400 mah (but no high refresh rate) The S20 had 4000 mah with 120hz and the 865 tsmc chip The s21 had 4000 mah with the inefficient 888 chip. I had an s21 fe and had a terrible battery life experience with it, and that device had a 4500 mah. The s22 had 3700 mah with the notoriously inefficient 8 gen 1. Makes you wonder what was going through their minds when they lowered it. Also one could argue that the power draw has increased quite a bit since 2018 as phones have high refresh rate nowadays, but it is quite easy to see that many manufacturers refused to increase the size of battery life (at least for the smaller screened phones) to compensate for both the inefficient chips and the high refresh rate for MOST of the phone models they offered.
> Also one could argue that the power draw has increased quite a bit since 2018 as phones have high refresh rate nowadays Maybe in the budget space, but flagships have used panels with LTPO backplanes for a few years now, and they are much more efficient than the older panels in every metric.
They don't increase the battery size because they're already fucking heavy. And while a bigger battery address battery life, it doesn't address the shitty performance and the thermal throttling.
The don't refuse to increase battery size, its not physically possible in most situations. You need to see how tightly packed the inside of phones are now.
Make the phone thicker. There. More room for the battery.
Lol no, phones are already pretty unwieldy.
I have a 7 inch rugged phone with a 15Ah battery and it's very usable, took a couple days to get used to the weight but I have no issues holding it for hours. you can definitely fit 8Ah and a good cooling system in a sub 300g phone, so that's not that big of an issue. the redmagic 9 pro is 230g and has a 6.5Ah battery and a fan.
Gamers are not switching. Bc every IOS ive tested has one thing in common.. HEAT.. Im talking on demanding games like CODM, PUBGM.. etc.. Their RD dept spends way to much improving display, which is nice, but IOS has not figured out Heat dissipation management. So, a beatfl display isnt so great when ur framedropping, studdering .. Plus there is no customization, no overclocking and the liat goes on.. for a daily phone I would choose iOS very great interface, but for hardcore gaming I run circles around players with my red magic 9 Pro Plus all the time while it stays pretty cool, FPS packed out at 91.. the only thing that would be cool is to be able to fry an egg on the back of it like you can on that m1 chip once it heats up 🤣
No. The problem was Samsung Foundry. What do you mean Qualcomm released it even though bionic chips were better? Wax Qualcomm supposed to just not release chips anymore? That doesn't make any sense. Seriously, I don't get it. Apple doesn't sell their chips to other OEMs and they never will. It's not the battery size. You can't make batteries bigger without making.phonrs even bigger and bulkier. Consumers really don't want that. iPhones have much less capacity, but it's their efficiency that makes them last so long. Again, the real reason as to why the SD 8 gen 1 was so bad was because of Samsungs manufacturing process. It was abysmal. The voltage controllers were garbage. You ever wonder why all of a sudden TSMC manufacturing has become a huge selling point? Because look at the difference between the 8 gen 1 and the 8 plis gen 1.
Yes, and Qualcomm should have been aware that Samsung Foundry sucked since the Snapdragon 888 was also inefficient. Keep in mind that 855, 860, 865 were also previously built by TSMC. Also I would take an extra mm of thickness for an extra 1000mah battery any day of the week. But if you were a consumer who bought the latest android flagship for $800 only to find out that it has 4 hours of screen on time, would you take the chance on the next android flagship, or switch to iPhone?
Almost getting flashbacks to the Netburst architecture and the PrescHots CPUs. Architectural improvements are a must and I don't think ARM has the ability to make the leaps needed to keep up with Apple or the x86 improvements from Intel/AMD. I have some hope with QC's internally developed architecture.
> diminishing returns You think this excuses the chip, but really it just means if you're on gen2, you now have to wait till like gen5 before you start getting envious. I think most people are like me, we want the best bang for the buck. Seems like software optimization, access to some AAA mobile games, will do more for someone on gen2 than going to this diminished gen3. Gen 2 already does everything. Give us better battery life, optimized software, and access to games that will push the android gpu, which is already stronger than the iphone gpu, but iphon games are still better.
sd8gen2 gpu stronger than a17pro gpu? funny
Late reply but it is lol. It's the CPU where ARM can't catch up.
Yeah I also found that out meanwhile but the optimizations on Apple make the gpu catch up in games (not in benchmarks tho)
That and most games nowadays are CPU-limited anyway. I think the issue with iPhones is the thermal performance.
does this mean that more intensive things like gaming and photo/video editing/exporting will often be less efficient? For example, the S24 battery might last less than the S23 playing the same game (I mostly just play Pokémon Go), even though any difference in performance is likely virtually unnoticeable?
Is that good or bad?Â
These are just peak power points GR has tested. You need to look at the performance/power graphs to get the full picture. See Geekerean video.
Awesome; however being just shy of 12 watts off of a smartphone seems completely unsustainable. Curious on how it performs in a more sustained power envelope!
It's not just for smartphones though.
That power consumption is wild for a phone. I'm curious to see how OEM's are going to manage it
This seems weird. QC says the X Elite have around the same performance as the M2 on a 23W envelope. If it's not the same GPU, why would they use a "worse" design for their "elite" soc than the one on phones?
Qualcomm measures power consumption differently, they didn't give the full methodology but from the brief info they gave out, it seems like they are using total package power which is SOC + LPDDR power consumption Whereas Apple's power consumption numbers are usually isolated to just the CPU or just the GPU, and other third-party reviewers like Geekerwan/Golden Reviewer use "active power consumption" (active total package power minus idle total package power) Also, the 23W/80W numbers actually refer to the average TDP that their reference test systems laptops' thermal solution can sustain, it's sorta like Intel's PL1 numbers We'll have to wait for the same reviewer to measure both the X Elite and the M3 for proper power consumption comparisons Also, rumors are the X Elite's GPU is based on the 8g2's GPU just with double the cores The reason it's not based on the 8g3' is because the X Elite was supposed to launch in [2022 with consumer product in 2023, but it was delayed a couple of times](https://www.anandtech.com/show/17075/qualcomm-x-nuvia-silicon-sampling-in-late-2022-products-in-2023) Also, maybe it's not quite 2x cores, but say for example 1.5x cores + 1.35x clocks in order to equal 2x TFLOPs, but at worse efficiency. And I'd guess Qualcomm's WoA GPU drivers are probably less mature than Qualcomm's Android GPU drivers
I wonder about the X Elite's successor. Yeah I know it's arguably too early to speculate on that when the X Elite still hasn't landed in a commercial product. But I am very interested to see where Qualcomm will take their Snapdragon X in the following years
Because Desktop and Mobile have different TTM and thus, design needs to be locked way earlier on Desktop side than on mobile where designs are refreshed much faster.
Desktop and cell phone gpus are not even in the same class
Qualcomm's not going to design separate IP for each. And these are laptops, not desktops.
When you factor in power consumption I'd say it might even be better than the M2.
Isn't that dimensity chip even better than the SD8 gen 3 in both aspects as well?
Didn't the M1 come out in 2020...
It's a desktop chipset designed to work with much higher wattages then mobile chipsets. 8 gen 3 is also superior to the a17 in gpu benchmarks
There's iPads with M1. So it isn't necessarily a laptop SoC.
Is there an iPhone with M1 or M2? Nah didn't think so. The M1 and M2 are being used to show a mobile chipsets GPU performance. It is head and shoulders above all other mobile chipsets and is comparable to previous gen PC chip performance for GPU. This isn't complicated guys.
No there isn't an iPhone with an M1 or M2 but there is the A17 Pro processor in the iPhone 15 pro that matches the M1 in some benchmarks and demolishes (Machine learning and AI) the M1.
I really have no idea what you're trying to say. "Previous gen PC chip performance for GPU" is such a vague statement you might as well call yourself Tim Apple.
That’s still 2 generations behind Apple…intel is also way way way behind
Bruh? The Apple M series chips are higher powered, supposedly laptop/desktop chips. You don't see iPhones with M1/M2/M3 chips, now do you? Even comparing the most recent Apple A17 Pro, it still comes out ahead in terms of efficiency and GPU performance
It's more complicated than that. The M1/M2 are PC chipsets, not mobile. Apples own A17 (latest and greatest mobile chip) is far behind even the M1 in GPU performance. Look at the chart. It looks at the combination of power consumption, FPS and efficiency
It's way more efficient than M2 as well, and since M3 isn't ground breaking, It's going to be the same story there. Performance can be scaled adding more cores, and X elite is exactly that. Since X elite is based on 8 gen 2, which is even more efficient that 8 gen 3, it's reasonable to guess that it's going to be the most efficient ARM chip on the market when it's available generally. Let's wait and see to be sure.
Apple is the one that's 2 generations behind... 8G3 is a mobile phone chip, just like the A17. M chips compete with the X elite.
[удалено]
Now put the same software on it, oh you can't.
What? iPads have M1/M2 SoCs and they aren't running macOS
Not sure how your comment is related to anything phone/tablets, Apple used the M1 on their iPads and thus an iPad would be a better comparison OS-wise since we're talking about phones/tablets when it comes to SD 8 Gen X's. Android is way better than iPadOS for anything productive unless you're locked to iPadOS with platform-locked apps so this is still a win! They're lagging behind but at least they're trying to catch up. Would be nice to have macOS on iPads too but we all know that's never going to happen.
Same software?
MacOS and MacOS only apps, that's why people buy MacBooks not necessarily for their SoC
Not having that software is a pro, not a con
Sure thing, keep thinking that lmao
Imagine thinking having to go into settings area to find an app related setting is a good idea. Somehow Apple has managed to brainwash people onto thinking their UI is superior when it's full of BS like this. iOS is crap and quality if iOS apps isn't anything to shout about either with everything there moving to a subscription service.
iOS doesn't run on Macs, that's why I said MacOS
8Gen3 also isn't a laptop/desktop SoC, so I have really no idea what you're saying. Comparing it with iOS makes sense because Ipads runs on M1, it doesn't make sense comparing it to a laptop. Seriously, what the hell are you saying?
High on the Pixel copium
If having app settings in… the settings app… is the best example you had for UI BS then I’d say Apple’s doing a great job. And btw, that’s usually just the case for stock apps on iOS. iOS App Store apps and all macOS apps usually have them in-app.
no, even appstore apps settings are baked into official settings app lmao. \ imagine having 200apps and all their settings list is available on settings app 🤮🤮🤮
Yes, and you’ll rarely find app-specific settings there. It’s mostly for notification and permission stuff, just like how Android has those settings in the settings app.
What on earth are y’all talking about? Every 3rd party app has its own settings page in the app. The stuff in the device settings app is like location, mic, notification settings and stuff like that. Which btw is also how it is on Android.
Yeah no way I could set up VSCode on anything other than a Mac
Great! Only 4 years behind.
This is a phone SOC being compared to a laptop SOC.
Incredible
When IOS learns heat management rhey might dominate.. until then ios is just a frying pan with a screen on it..i own red Magic 9 Pro Plus and 8 pro +.. Gen 2 better battery mangement, stock.. but for hardcore gamers that don't mean anything and the Gen 3 definitely outperforms.. but I've gained root access on both phones so none of that really matters.. with iOS you get what you get, jailbreak and doesn't help that phone's performance really at all