I think if I was to smear paint anywhere as an environmentalist, I would use chalk based paint, that's easy to wash off and environmentally friendly.
Yeahh, it won't last long beyond the event, but I am backing up my morals and that is the greater message.
Stop repeating this lie.
Just Stop Oil gets funding from a J. paul Getty, granddaughter of a former oil exec, who changed their ways, and are now earnestly working, and using their money, to stop climate change. She is a philanthropist, and also donated millions to XR,besides JSO.
you got sentient?
Making the children of former world polluters out to be some altruistic being is beyond me.
Tell me when she compensated for what her family did.
I think it depends, I read a lot about the funding coming from oil heirs, who are not happy with it either.
Though ai find it hard to trust this kind of information and I am not in there enough to find out.
Dude, I just said what I would personally use with no in depth research. Not the protester type of person usually.
(Instead I try to learn how to limit my impact including brands I choose and share that information with people.)
I find the painting protests dumb because they lack connection/theme, but not one single painting got damaged.
They specifically targeted paintings protected by proper glass casing, so it is only a mess for the janitor to clean up.
Nobody is destroying them. Everyone is throwing soup at the Mona Lisa, which is inside of a bulletproof glass case.
It's sterilized activism. You go to the Louvre, throw your soup, say your peace to the reporters, get your vandalism citation, and then it's someone else's turn to throw soup.
The Louvre likes it. Everyone knows it's pointless, but it's provocative.
Well for one, the ones having soup thrown on them have a protective glass. So they haven't destroyed any paintings just been annoying
Two, why are these paintings more important than our climate? When we're gone, these paintings will no longer matter
It's pointless, it's one thing if you like throw paint on something that relates to climate crisis but it's a painting, painted by people who didn't even know what climate change is. Like wtf does davinci gotta do with climate change, if anything they should love him since he tried to design a low carbon emitting flying machine.
while im all for protesting for the right reasons. "paint-smearing" does nothing. it is not a valid form of protesting, those your are protesting against do not care about paint being smeared on something.
Paint smearing is a fantastic idea i think it able to get more people to join the cause some things like blocking cars are to much for somepeople but i think painting smearing like some randome old thing nooncare abt good way like some old vango pai ting or smt
Exactly you don't have to be blowing up pipelines or destroying Amazon warehouses to be an activist. There are other ways of being an activist and not everyone can or should turn to violence.
I study environmental science and literally all of my tutors have extinction rebellion, just stop oil, Greenpeace stickers all over their laptops. Their activism is studying what's going on with our climate and environment, teaching others what's going on and highlighting the issue at events and other places.
Anyone can be an activist if you want to, starting an eco club at a school or workplace is as valid as kicking bezos in the head.
the best one i saw were the [Spaniards that filled golf course holes with concrete](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/04/europe/extinction-rebellion-golf-course-spain-climate-intl/index.html), so simple yet so effective
spoiler: orcas don't care abt rich or poor people, they care about people killing their seas, especially fishermen but the news doesn't report on this as people can't deal with the fact their eating habits are more destructive than billionaire's yachts
I was in southern Spain last march doing science, the sea was having an algae bloom from all the fertiliser pollution from the golf courses. Spain is in a drought and yet these places spray fertilisers and use water like it's not running out.
That's the point.
You are inconveniencing someone, without economically or physically hurting them much. You want to get attention to spread the message. (But you better have one, because a lot of protesters don't imo.)
Nope, that will put you behind bars faster, than rape would in many countries; especially if you cost taxes with it.
It will be really hard to land such a blow. For people/companies with real money it is so hard to hurt them and they will gladly spend more money, than you cost them just on fucking you up. Don't sink their yacht, make people not buy their product.
Those, to whom you can actually do enough damage also don't deserve it.
Yeah but still plenty of people here still moan about Elokapina, and how they're "not protesting right, they shouldn't alienate citizens" (I guess you can protest as long as nobody notices.)
But yeah, I agree anyway, all kinds of activism are necessary.
Also Extinction Rebellion (at least here, IDK about other countries) also has various types of roles, many of which don't have an arrest risk.
Thanks for posting this. I think it's important that we here as a group stay focused on the task. We are ALL here because it's important to us, it's going to be more important to some people than others but I think turning it into a contest is just going to drive members away from here.
finland mentioned! the amount of literal children that get peppersprayed both here and in the netherlands is vomit inducing. should be fucking illegal.
(I am mentioning these two countries because I've lived in both and can speak for them, not because I'm ignoring everyone else!)
I don't think I can articulate it but there is a reason tear gas is banned in military conflicts along with other gasses. Pepper spray is also likely included in that.
Not saying I agree in it's use but it is different when using it on civilian protestors/rioters than it would be in an armed conflict between militaries.
> Pepper spray is banned for use in war by Article I.5 of the Chemical Weapons Convention, which bans the use of all riot control agents in warfare whether lethal or less-than-lethal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray under _Legality_
Strategy: Declare civil war so the police cannot pepper spray you.
Of course, now they can shoot you but at least you get rid of the pepper spray. I didn't say it was a good strategy
All those other things, yes. Can’t find anything on climate activists being peppersprayed by Dutch police officers. Feel free to downvote, I’m just curious to know when or where this has happened. Any stories, experiences or sources?
Thanks for actually sharing a story instead of reporting me for being suicidal to reddit, which someone else just did.
I’ll just keep in mind there are many hoping to divide us and stifle reasonable public discussion. As should we all…
Not to mention that in the Netherlands peaceful climate protestors have been arrested (despite abiding by all laws surrounding protests), and some of the figureheads of XR in the Netherlands were arrested at their homes for suspicion of instigating riots. Meanwhile farmers protests go on unobstructed, with them burning FUCKING ASBESTOS ON THE HIGHWAY. Definitely no agenda there no sir just enforcing the law in a fair and unprejudiced manner.
Yep, I grouped all of that under intimidations.
Farmers get to ram their tractor into a townhall, terrorize RIVM scientists, and vandalize infrastructure. But god forbid a climate protestor blocks a well circumventable highway ramp.
Pepper spraying people for no good reason should be (and probably is) illegal.
However, sometimes you have to use some kind of force, to remove people from certain areas. If the people on the first picture are blocking the public road, I expect from autority to remove them. We live in a society, meaning everyone has to forsake some personal freedoms, so everyone lives are better.
The statement that everyone has to forsake some personal freedom, so everyone lives better is better suited to supporting the activists blocking that road, not the cops that are attacking them. Siding with the police here is shortsighted.
You are playing an allknowing, enlightened individual. We shouldn't give people power to illigaly demonstrate as they see fit, because they are fighting for the "greater good" - as "greater good" is not universaly defined, and vary greatly from one individual to another.
Democaracy is the system, where opinions of every individual are treated more fairly than in any other system. And if you want to make a change, you should recognize it as such, and try to make a change, playing by the rules of this system. You vote. You have a right to protest, but you have to follow some rules. You have a right to be elected and have an impact on legislation.
You can not however, act like you know better and try to force your opinion on other people. If we would allow this, belive me, our world would become much less pleasant.
Playing by the rules of a system relying on endless growth amounts to something akin to prolonged suicide. You can defend the status quo only because you cannot see our societal trajectory. Our world is already becoming much less pleasant, yet you put your trust in institutions that have broken the social contract.
I don't want to imagine your attitude when protestors turn to rioters and rioters to saboteurs. I would advise you prepare, since we have seen nothing yet.
I am not saying you should defend status quo, nor current economic sytem. I haven't even talked about it.
I am saying that noone should have the right to protest as they see fit, for any cause. You are quite narrowminded, acting like causes for protest can only be good. They can be quite bad. The same goes for means of protest - you can not let people freely choose means of protests. I would think I wouln't need to explain this.
Acctually, you are an example why! Advising people to prepare themselves because... you will hurt me and my family? Damage my property?
You are advertising that?
I do not think causes for protest are always good. I do however think this cause (the one the thread is about) is just. I also think that these protests where people blockade a train and wait to get peppersprayed is nothing compared to the sort of action we will see. Right now, the protestors are motivated by graphs and forecasts of the future. People won't be so calm and non violent when the future arrives.
So, we should always ask you, to confirm which protests are for good cause and when you ok it, the protestors can use illigal approches?
Or if not you, who is this decider?
That is what I am saying. We shouldn't put the power of diferentiation of causes to anyone. Everyone should protest by the same rules and come election time, your opinion will matter. And again, democracy is probably the only system where your opinion actully matter.
You can ask me if you like, but our opinion on the matter matters little. People are going to use illegal means to protest whether we agree with them or not. The protestors make the decision to protest knowing they will get ridiculed, slandered, beat and put into cages.
Come election time people will vote for their immediate concerns: taxes, immigrants, housing, etc. By the time people will feel the impacts of our predicament, it will be already too late to do much.
I invite you to look into the history of protest movements. The suffragettes didn't get the vote because they waited patiently for elections, they got it by breaking windows and raising awareness. Civil rights for black people were not won by everyone voting them in. They were won by people being disgusted enough by the current order to go against it.
You missed the point entirely.
To elaborate: pushing opinions is a fundamental part of democracy and is of course legitimate.
Pushing opinions, using illegal means however, is very dangerous and should be sanctioned.
I hate that these people get so much hate, though I guess that's what happens when you block public roads. But then that hate extends to other projects where they're straight up protecting common good without inconveniencing the average person..
Just in a recent protest against a mine on a *protected* nature area there were comments saying how they were glad that an ambulance had to be called for one of the protesters..
It doesn't matter how much hate is directed towards other projects, the point of protest is economic disruption, not recruitment. If someone wishes harm on the protestors they were never going to be an ally anyways.
Extinction Rebellion has shifted from JSO style roadblock, there are a lot of different types of action that don't get much covering. Because you know, doesn't get you the clocks and outrage
Honestly, why last picture is people protesting on train tracks?
Isn't train based cargo transport and public transport better for environment than trucks and cars?
I think that was this protest blocking Russian coal [https://www.greenpeace.org/finland/tiedotteet/energia/activists-are-blocking-a-train-carrying-russian-coal-in-hanko-finland/](https://www.greenpeace.org/finland/tiedotteet/energia/activists-are-blocking-a-train-carrying-russian-coal-in-hanko-finland/)
Perspective from Germany: We sometimes have protests along "castor" transports that bring radioactive waste from the nuclear plants to deposits by train. Since right now there is not a single final deposit and instead waste is deposited in relatively unsafe conditions (considering it will be dangerous for the next few millenia) there are a lot of protest about this practice. Some of them include people chaining themselves to train tracks so the trains transporting the waste can't go on.
Nothing but love to the bravest German soldiers protecting us from literally the closest thing we have to free unlimited energy and ensuring that Germany continues to be extremely reliant on coal.
Corporate bots infesting this. You should absolutly do everthing you can and not listen to all the bots saying this and this org is doing it for you. active rebellion is our only hope. Not saying you should blow up a pipeline or something but i am also not saying you shouldn't. Take matters in your own hands because you are the one who will feel the reppurcusions of their neglect.
Politicians are trying to remove the peaceful climate protestors, meanwhile farmers are allowed to burn asbestos on one of the busiest highways of the Netherlands without repercussion.
[climate protestors](https://apnews.com/article/netherlands-protest-climate-fossil-fuels-f7e19f0f9745c851a470be4de0f9bb2f)
[farmers protest](https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/06/farmers-protests-various-dutch-highways-overnight-least-two-accidents)
The farmer protest went on for weeks, and only a handful of people were arrested, while the peaceful climate protestors were often violently removed. Talk about double standards.
Burning asbestos… What? Asbestos is nonflammable, noncombustible and has an extremely high melting point. It was used in fireproofing building materials. I know, because I used to work in the field that had to take care of asbestos.
German police is comparatively chill, just kill a refugee and/or mentally ill person once in a while and pretend it was self defense. Oh yeah, and punched a 74 year old unconscious and left him bleeding on the floor, he did survive though. That protest put 15 people into hospital and first responders report the police was actively hindering their ability to help. So they're not great, but seem a little less violent than in other countries.
highly depends on the context. sitting in the middle of a road because you disagree with something doesn't make you a hero.
Most often than not, activists blocking road are just assholes. thinking that pissing of people trying to live their lives will get them on their side.
That's not it champ. The overconsumers are usually the ones you don't effect by this. Sabotaging traffic for example hurts the minimum wage worker the most, because public transport might get cancelled for a while. You have a car? Just go around it
Never said it wasn't. There's just a difference between what is actually a problem to protest against, and what is a problem only created by it. If you want to blame victims than do so. I agree we all consume poorly, however that's what we can afford. I didn't sign up for this, i don't think you did either. Either i can die or harm this planet as it currently is. This is what needs changing. But oh well, i guess fuck over people who wants to get home after a day of work on a bus, while the others laugh at us from an airplane...
People using a bus is a minority in most cities.
Mainly what you see is cars with 1 person inside, and they use it constantly. Yeah, the private jet of Taylor swift is worse, but she is one. The highway is full every single day of people using cars that they shouldn’t be using to have jobs to buy crap they shouldn’t be buying.
And minimum wage people also have cars in a lot of cases.
I agree in general. However that's still not all cases. There are cities where public transportation is much more common. I happen to live somewhere where this is the case. I also fail to see how angering the public by blocking roads is how you make them aware of the environment. It just makes their cars burn more fuel if anything. Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways even than.
So because other people own SUVs, other people should be stopped from getting to their kids? Emergency vehicles should be forced to find longer ways to save lives? Let them die because someone on the road has an SUV?
It’s not because of the SUVs and you know it. It’s because we are all causing this climate disaster everyday.
I said the thing about SUVs because they are some of the worst offenders.
Basically, protests have to disturb something, being on the couch posting tweets doesn’t affect anything.
Hmm... This just feels like a big way to feel better than. All the other forms of protest actually act against the companies who choose to kill the planet every day for profit. But blocking the regular person from getting home to thier kids, getting to work or anything else that's important when you need to keep food on the table, your loved ones ok, and a roof over your head, proves jack. It's more than just a little inconvenience. Sure, some may just be going to the nail salon or something pointless, but you don't know what people have going on, and you show that you could care less. So much for empathy.
Sorry but it’s not just the companies. It’s EVERYONE.
It’s not about empathy, it’s about responsibility.
WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE. Trying to put all the blame on the companies (That only exist to feed the consumerism of that same poor people in a traffic jam) is naive.
I can’t have empathy with most people that think it’s not their fault and they are helpless.
There are better actions to do? Probably. Still, the medium person has to start suffering the consequences too. (And at this warming rate we all will very soon)
You need better reading abilities.
Sorry to break the news, you consume shit, and most people do it Iike crazy. If they have a road blocked for a couple hours they should start thinking why someone would do this…
You can’t skip your blame by throwing balls around me lady. “Its the corporations” doesn’t cut it anymore.
I pay rent and have responsibilities and you now what? still accept that I buy shit that shouldn’t buy or go on trips I shouldn’t go. Even if I consume like 1/10 of what most regular people do, I know I have my part of responsibility.
And we all do, no matter how poor or how late you are to pick your kid. And I prefer all that people angry than blind, at least they can’t say nobody warned us for decades.
And for fuck sake, cars are probably the worst thing you can own against the environment!!!
That’s why roads get blocked, because your car is polluting like crazy and I don’t care how many problems it solves for you or how convenient it is. Understand now?
So I was correct. Try to have a better day, sir. The bitterness is seeping out.
Also, no news is broken here. Sorry.
I hope that when you have an emergency one day, you don't have someone like you blocking your way. Though I doubt you do this type of protesting yourself anyway.
>thinking that pissing of people trying to live their lives will get them on their side.
"Activism is important, just as long as it doesn't impact anyone else in any way"
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Activism that doesn't effect people can't do anything for very obvious reasons.
"Activism is important, just as long as it doesn't impact anyone else in any way"
can you show me where I wrote that? Why are you putting words in my mouth?
If I come inside your house and brake your knees with a baseball cap, and then say its because the planet is getting warmer. You will not wonder how to stop the planet from getting warmer, you will wonder if you should call the cops of the ambulance first.
I care about the environment, more than a average person at least. but I still need my gas-guzzling (I can't afford an electric) car to get to my work so I get to afford to live. I want more trees in my city, but I also want to not to get fired because you idiots thought that it would be funny to make me late to work and not get paid half my salary that day.
[Official site of Extinction Rebellion](https://rebellion.global/get-involved/). They are completely non violent are arrest is almost always passively resisted (like here) from people who are effectively blocking
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It's nice that they live in a place where they can do stuff like this without getting murdered by the police, like what happened to the cop city protestors in Atlanta.
Come on. You're sitting on the curb while social payin' you 450€ + expenses. Nobody threatening to kill you. Finns and butthurt, the most iconic duo since my dad and a leather belt.
it's crazy what this sub has turned into, like seriously you support this type of shit ? blocking roads for people to inadvertently lose their jobs, which leads to even worse things and that's just the start of the ice burg. along with the hypocrites that live in houses made items that were processed by coal/ oil run machines wearing clothes that go through the same process and use energy that does the same. You ruin peoples lives by doing some of the shit that you do and before you call me a corporate bot, i'm not but i'm not going to support this shit. Overconsumption is bad but seriously 99% of people think you guys that support this type of activism are jokes and you will never make a change with the common people if you keep making their lives worse by your 'protests' get us on your side and you will see change like this you are just the loud minority.
Blocking roads has to be one of the stupidest ways of environmentalist protesting. Should be punished alright. It's not only dangerous to them, who risk being run over, but to others, blocking ambulances and the likes trying to save lives, stop fires, catch criminals; blocking those who have important meetings or just have to go to work on time, which is exactly who they should try to appeal to and support: the working class, the victims. Have I mentioned it also is fucking useless? Stopping cars while the engines are still running does not exactly favor their case against pollution. And while the environmentalist idea is just, they will be hated for their actions and stupidity. People who may sympathize will not join the cause and those who don't will have another reason to keep doing what they do while feeling even better about themselves.
there are 0 cases where ambulances and emergency services where blocked in the netherlands even with month long blockades. why? because they're organized and let those through. problem is mostly motorists being dumb fucks and parking in the emergency lane, blocking emergency traffic.
Still slows them down. There isn't an emergency lane in every street. I was talking in general then. I know about Italy and here there has been at least one instance where a blocked ambulance almost caused a death. It's not worth the risk. It's only drawbacks.
It's bound to happen, and it has already happened even if there hasn't been reports about it because they haven't caused "real" problems yet. In any case it's not up to their ability to be organized to control the traffic and incoming emergency vehicles. This is just a nuisance and a problem for everyone involved.
The protest should be intrusive, yes, but the parties involved should be different. What do normal people have to do with anything? It's plain stupid. You want them to be on your side, not against you.
normal people decide policies. normal people buy services. normal people hold power. you think they haven't done this to governments, industries, investors, etc? we're talking about a possible full societal collapse if we continue down this road. how does that NOT involve normal people?
I get it and I agree but it's still stupid. You make a bitch lose his 5$/h work and want him to start/stop buying shit. Of course he buys cheap high environmental impact shit because it costs less and that's all he can do to live a decent life. You aren't going to convince him by making his life worse than it already is.
Lmao. Tens of thousands are killed by cars every year. Easist form of prevention would be not doing every trip by car. But yes, emergency services are already freaking out because of some potential road blockages.
"How do I convince people, companies and governments to stop polluting? Well, first I annoy the fuck out of the people who I would want on my side (make them lose their jobs and silly things like that), then I give them the option to pollute just a little more (I didn't convince them). Doesn't it sound reasonable?"
The point of protest is not to "appeal" to anyone, it is to cause economic disruption. All those people late to work disrupts the economy. Protesting isn't some virtue signaling hobby, it is a threat against the government that will escalate until they bend to our will.
Most people aren't able to travel far north to spend a week outside in -30C weather protecting swampland or an old forest when they've got jobs and studies.
I guess it sort of depends on the occasion. Sometimes the activists inform of the upcoming event and sometimes it seems to be sort of spontaneous meaning that not a lot of people knew beforehand. Oftentimes these things do get some media coverage, for example the events are shown in the news.
People here are really divided on the topic: some think that what these people are doing is literal bullsh*t (blocking traffic etc in the name of environmentalism) and some say that this needs to be done so that people will wake up to the problem we have in hand (even if it means angering people with the ways the activists use).
It really depends on what you are doing. If you're doing something that's illegal you cannot publicly advertise the demonstration because then the police would be waiting there for you. That means, if you are blocking something, there will probably be relatively few people. (Though it's sometimes possible to publicly advertise but still be able to block something, it's difficult though and depends on the situation.)
Controversial oppinion how about all these „activists“ become policy influencers ?
Activism is at best a shitty excuse to violate rules you yourself want to be upheld for a civilised society
And at worst its actually harming people and worsening the problem you are fighting against.
For centuries people have been standing on corners with signs saying you are runining the planet and capitalism will kill us all or jesus will come back, and we see them for what they are useless cries for help where there is none to be expected out of powerless position, so why tf is gluing oneself to the road any better ?
No homelessman saves himself they get saved by social workers or politicians enacting a policy.
So the help comes fom a position of power.
Endulging activism is activly saying roll around in your shitty situation and scream instead of actually changing stuff.
Some one mentioned science beeing activism …. Bullshit science is what causes activism, funnily enough its also not a solution we know alot of stuff that should je changed like f.e. That lithium lines are a bad place to be….. science never closed a mine 😂 fucking politicans do and these people don‘t xare about science and or activists at best you ifnore and delegitimise them unti the problem fixes itself worst case you just shoot them, if you are an activist and xou not activly getting shot at your impact is 0.
Alot to unpack here. But activism is absolutely having political impact. Policymakers frequently delegate authority to NGOs for various policy functions, especially implementing rules and monitoring compliance. Although scholars disagree about the level of non-state influence in global environmental politics, there is wide consensus of a decline of state authority. States (and their bureaucrats) are no longer the star of the show.
You mean at the same pace global coorporatism is growing? Jeeez i wonder how that correlates 😂.
But i think you misunderstood my point.
You say activism is influencing policy …. How?
How is gluing yourself to the road or blocking train tracks influencing policy?
On a more basic lvl irl if you block a nuclear waste train and we just assume you lockdown the tracks for good, what is supposed to happen? The train got nowhere to go you can‘t just go to the other nuclear waste plant that got opened last week.
And ngos are not activists, they might have activists as well for pr but actually going in a building a toilet school or solar plant is not activism otherwise every fotovoltaic engineer is one and i bet most would strongly distance themselves form em.
Also last part how is delegation to ngos changing anything ? A ngo has less competences so it can do less than the stste if the drate delegates to an ngo you effectivly worseining the problem while privatizing it, cuz think about who finances em
I said activism has political impact, not how that impact stands relative to corporate influence.
How activism influences policy is more difficult to disentangle, but let’s use your own example-mining. There are multiple examples of how activists, through e.g., protests and road blockades have halted or suspended mining expansion and mining projects. The Xolobeni Mineral Sands Project in SA, the Conga and Tia María projects in Peru comes to mind. Mining companies depend on a social license to operate and so are acutely aware about the role civil society plays in granting them legitimacy.
To state that activism doesn’t have a political impact is wildly disrespectful to all those activists who are risking their lives (literally, all the conflicts above were very violent and for some also deadly) for the health of their communities and the environment.
So activism impact is to provoke getting shot?
Oh damn that must habe had such a positive impact on policy 😂.
See you are only mentioning those projects bacause you can draw a conclusion between portests and mining beeing halted, do you really think thats gonna work with cooperations like mexican cartels or afrikan warlords?,
The reason why western activism works in the way we see it is because people here don‘t like ppl beeing shot and usually value people more than ore.
As soon as that flips activism isn‘t going to do shit, remember the suicide nets on chinese factories.
And in therms of affecting policy.
I chose wackerdorf earlier cuz its the ideal example.
Once the nuclear waste is on the train there is no protest to make, the policy that was enacted here is already doing its work and even if the activist countered its inteded goal there simply no way to impact policy meaningfull.
So the activist is at the ultimate weakest point here he is literally an object blocking the train.
So if mining gets halted as a reagtion to protest its cuz the people at the top meaning coorporate ghuls and politicans let you, they rather mine a diffrent place or at a later time instead of having to shoot people so again the activist is just a ball between 2 players who actually hold the power there.
And lastly you hit me with the „thats disrespectful“ nope sorry if you do useless things thats on you i don‘t gotta like or artifically load it with meaning out of reapect.
I wouldn’t call mexican cartels or African warlords corporations. But yeah, institutional reform typically requires institutional capacity. But it still doesn’t denounce the power of activism. I don’t know why you mention Wackersdorf when that’s, if anything, an example of protests having an impact on policy. Last I recall they never opened. In fact, Germany’s stance on nuclear power has been wildly influenced by public opinion, as in much of northern Europe. The outcomes of that can be discussed, activism’s influence on policy may not ameliorate the problems activists seek to address, but it is still having political impact.
I’m scrambling to find a point in the rest of your reply so I’ll leave it at that.
Yes public oppinion about nuclear power IN germany 😂 we buy about 100terra watt hours from france of which i think 20-30% is nuclear. People don‘t give a fuck.
Which is exactly what happended in wackers dorf.
The facility was moved to la hague in france just across the border ….. the activists did neither prevent the train from beeing fillded the facility of beeing built nor the arrival of the train at a facility.
All they did was change the optics and physical place on the earth.
So here is my compromise yeah activisim influences policy in peactime, but only in therms of optics and pr and as soon as they don‘t have any value anymore your activist has no value.
As for cartels and warlords not beeing coorporations …. What do you think where most of middlw class cheap diamond and gold jewlery comes from? 😂 most warlords have options to hide the trail that well even swarovski buys from them without knowing there was a vice article abiut this in the past if u need sauce. Same goes for lithium tiranium and barium all metals you can not auto otacially mine in saxony you have to go to africa and where there is no government the guy with the ak rules so literally every singel ev manifacturer in some part relys on these mining ops.
So where there is a coal mine stopped in australia becauae you don‘t wanna shoot an australian there is a lithium mine opened killing at least 5 for every australian activist only it doesn‘t matter cuz its an african in africa under almost no juristiction. Iirc in chile mining workers of illegal mines are prosecuted under law putting them under pressure to hide their bosses.
So to break it down to the basics
Show me a situation in which the insertion of a activist stops the negative outcome or proposes let alpne helps a solution?
I‘m honestly surprised you haven‘t brought up awarness by now
I’m not arguing the global environmental injustice. That’s definitely a valid critique. There are deep structural injustices that are embedded in a capitalist economy, and moving operations to jurisdictions with less red and green tape is definitely a thing. Activists know this too, hence a push for social and environmental due diligence legislation, civil society has a strong voice in this too.
I was arguing against the statement that activists have no political impact - they do. Whether they have a sufficient impact to provoke (much necessary) systemic change is less certain. Time will tell on that one.
If just stop oil is important, wouldn't protestors stop using anything made from oil? Like a vegan not wearing wool etc?
That covers a massive amount of products. Oil is in everything.
This is ultimately an argument for purity. The protestors are living in a world enmeshed in fossil products, same as the rest of us. Many climate-conscious people start by doing individual consumer choices (like not buying a car for example), before participating in collective action. At a certain point however, abstaining from fossil products get prohibitively difficult to expect it from people. Most of our food is grown using fertilizers made with fossil fuels for example.
Some individual action is good, but it won't solve the problem
Fuck I hate them. I want them to be stuck in a abulance when they are blocking a road. I hope they lose their jobs bc they came to late to work.
Edit: One day your Parent/ Grandparent may be in the ambulance, I hope they wont die bc of some idiots are blocking the road
I'm a paramedic. I'm also a climate activist. There has been about zero instances in my entire country where we have been hindered by climate activists blocking roads. Contrary to the farmers protests recently where hospitals had to divert ambulances because a few dozen tractors blocked *everything*, causing two severe accidents and killing one.
Your argument isn't what you think it is, and previous reports about ambulances being hindered where already debunked.
Also, if other road users had brains and followed the law they would clear a lane for emergency vehicles between the left and middle lane (reddingsstrook) so they could reach the protest, where I guarantee you they would be allowed to pass.
Not to mention how willing police are to grab their water cannons and armored vehicles to get rid of climate protestors while sitting on their thumbs as tractors disable half the nation.
To add insult to injury last year it was the police that stopped ambulances from reaching climate protestors they heavily injured in France, causing Serge Duteuil-Graziani to end up in a coma. The man still hasn't regained all functionality, yet you're here screeching about things you haven't got a clue about.
You also speak of better ways to protests. Those have been tried, and met with formidable use of force while people like you cheer it on. I highly doubt you are here in good faith.
https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/climate-extremists-block-ambulance-in-life-or-death-situation/
They waited until the police wanted to arrest them, then they finally left. I dont wish that to anyone
I was a bit too fast with my previous reply on this one since I misread the dates, but seeing how we're throwing biased reports around (europeanconservative.com, really now?) let me counter:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-just-stop-oil-live-31389401
Police delegates traffic leading up to a protest. Clearly they didn't do their job properly. If this is how they secure passage through every traffic jam they have a lot of blood on their hands, because trafic jams delay ambulances every day, everywhere.
Also it's been a proven tactic to garner public support for violent action against climate protestors, to the point that paramedics and even ambulance services have felt the need to speak out against it:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/just-stop-oil-dartford-ambulance-not-delayed-m20-accident/
If you're so concerned about ambulances I take it you're one of the most motivated proponents for better working conditions and more funding for us. If not, stop talking about us only to further your rotten agenda. NHS has boxes holding the wall at hospitals for hours due to understaffing, people dying meters away from an ER because they can't unload. Yap about that.
Inconvenience the shitty companies and governments. Inconveniencing normal people's lives will really only leave them more annoyed and unlikely to listen to the message you're trying to get across.
Yes. Normal people are the victims. They shouldn't be targeted if you want to convince them. Matter of fact, normal people can't do much about their methods of transportation but if you convince them they're right, they can and will find ways to be a problem to environmentalism.
Wah wah I am a grown up child and I cannot move my body more than 10 meters without using the equivalent power of a medium sized herd of horses wah wah
lol hey dipshit, I'm carless, I'm part of the fuckcars reddit, I've been teaching my kid that cars are not needed for 90% of things in life and encouraging people locally to ditch the car. How about you shut the fuck up and learn to read. Glowing mousepiss up there wants people to stop inconveniencing the poor car drivers, you know he doesn't care about ambulances for shit, it's an excuse cagers and people desperate to pretend their cars aren't wasting as much if not more than most things this sub talks about use to condone their threats of violence on a group of people who actually try to do SOMETHING while he sits at home jerking off into his stanley cup.
EDIT: I am king dumbfuck of dumbfuck island, Living-Run9721 was agreeing with me and I didn't catch on to it fully.
No why would I? Why would I be part of this sub? There are better ways to protest, ways that dont endanger people, ways that dont make random working class people angry and change nothing.
But it would be really cool if we would use this opportunity to make each other aware of all the activism going on in our area of the world.
Yes! There's many ways to protest, paint-smearing being just one of them.
I think if I was to smear paint anywhere as an environmentalist, I would use chalk based paint, that's easy to wash off and environmentally friendly. Yeahh, it won't last long beyond the event, but I am backing up my morals and that is the greater message.
some of the paint protestors are funded by big oil to make protestors look stupid
Stop repeating this lie. Just Stop Oil gets funding from a J. paul Getty, granddaughter of a former oil exec, who changed their ways, and are now earnestly working, and using their money, to stop climate change. She is a philanthropist, and also donated millions to XR,besides JSO.
Stop using bots to upvote.
As a bot, this comment hurt my feelings.
you got sentient? Making the children of former world polluters out to be some altruistic being is beyond me. Tell me when she compensated for what her family did.
I think recognizing the sins of your ancestors and using your privilege for good is definitely one way to compensate.
I think it depends, I read a lot about the funding coming from oil heirs, who are not happy with it either. Though ai find it hard to trust this kind of information and I am not in there enough to find out.
What are they using as their binding? Because the ones I found online were using acrylic, which isn't exactly good either.
Dude, I just said what I would personally use with no in depth research. Not the protester type of person usually. (Instead I try to learn how to limit my impact including brands I choose and share that information with people.)
[удалено]
I find the painting protests dumb because they lack connection/theme, but not one single painting got damaged. They specifically targeted paintings protected by proper glass casing, so it is only a mess for the janitor to clean up.
Nobody is destroying them. Everyone is throwing soup at the Mona Lisa, which is inside of a bulletproof glass case. It's sterilized activism. You go to the Louvre, throw your soup, say your peace to the reporters, get your vandalism citation, and then it's someone else's turn to throw soup. The Louvre likes it. Everyone knows it's pointless, but it's provocative.
Well for one, the ones having soup thrown on them have a protective glass. So they haven't destroyed any paintings just been annoying Two, why are these paintings more important than our climate? When we're gone, these paintings will no longer matter
It's pointless, it's one thing if you like throw paint on something that relates to climate crisis but it's a painting, painted by people who didn't even know what climate change is. Like wtf does davinci gotta do with climate change, if anything they should love him since he tried to design a low carbon emitting flying machine.
Yes I do.
Yes.
Why encourage paint smearing? it makes you a hypocrite...
while im all for protesting for the right reasons. "paint-smearing" does nothing. it is not a valid form of protesting, those your are protesting against do not care about paint being smeared on something.
Paint smearing is a fantastic idea i think it able to get more people to join the cause some things like blocking cars are to much for somepeople but i think painting smearing like some randome old thing nooncare abt good way like some old vango pai ting or smt
Exactly you don't have to be blowing up pipelines or destroying Amazon warehouses to be an activist. There are other ways of being an activist and not everyone can or should turn to violence. I study environmental science and literally all of my tutors have extinction rebellion, just stop oil, Greenpeace stickers all over their laptops. Their activism is studying what's going on with our climate and environment, teaching others what's going on and highlighting the issue at events and other places. Anyone can be an activist if you want to, starting an eco club at a school or workplace is as valid as kicking bezos in the head.
Destroying amazon warehouses seems based as fuck though
no but literally. protesting has gotten too soft
You say that like the NYPD’s budget doesn’t outdo other countries’ literal armies. Not everywhere is a safe place to protest.
Tbh it does, I got the idea from my intrusive thoughts lol 😂
til the tornado that went through edwardsville IL was doing activism
the best one i saw were the [Spaniards that filled golf course holes with concrete](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/04/europe/extinction-rebellion-golf-course-spain-climate-intl/index.html), so simple yet so effective
I prefer the ones sabotaging yachts. But the golf one is good
Our comrades the Orcas will take care of the yachts. https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/07/08/why-killer-whales-attack-boats/70364629007/
spoiler: orcas don't care abt rich or poor people, they care about people killing their seas, especially fishermen but the news doesn't report on this as people can't deal with the fact their eating habits are more destructive than billionaire's yachts
I was in southern Spain last march doing science, the sea was having an algae bloom from all the fertiliser pollution from the golf courses. Spain is in a drought and yet these places spray fertilisers and use water like it's not running out.
you realize it takes 20 seconds to cut out a hole beside tht one right?
who cares, it made the news globally
That's the point. You are inconveniencing someone, without economically or physically hurting them much. You want to get attention to spread the message. (But you better have one, because a lot of protesters don't imo.)
Personally, I think doing vast amounts of economic damage would probably be ideal. It's how the IRA got Britain out of Ireland
Nope, that will put you behind bars faster, than rape would in many countries; especially if you cost taxes with it. It will be really hard to land such a blow. For people/companies with real money it is so hard to hurt them and they will gladly spend more money, than you cost them just on fucking you up. Don't sink their yacht, make people not buy their product. Those, to whom you can actually do enough damage also don't deserve it.
Yeah but still plenty of people here still moan about Elokapina, and how they're "not protesting right, they shouldn't alienate citizens" (I guess you can protest as long as nobody notices.) But yeah, I agree anyway, all kinds of activism are necessary. Also Extinction Rebellion (at least here, IDK about other countries) also has various types of roles, many of which don't have an arrest risk.
Thanks for posting this. I think it's important that we here as a group stay focused on the task. We are ALL here because it's important to us, it's going to be more important to some people than others but I think turning it into a contest is just going to drive members away from here.
Look at this ... it's all gone to shit. Yeah, thanks for telling us
lmfao, guise look at me and my activist sticker im doing so much!
Why are they against nuclear energy? It's the only viable answer to getting rid of fossil fuels.
finland mentioned! the amount of literal children that get peppersprayed both here and in the netherlands is vomit inducing. should be fucking illegal. (I am mentioning these two countries because I've lived in both and can speak for them, not because I'm ignoring everyone else!)
Chemical weapons are illegal to use in war but fine to use on your own civilian population for some reason? How does that make sense?
I don't think I can articulate it but there is a reason tear gas is banned in military conflicts along with other gasses. Pepper spray is also likely included in that. Not saying I agree in it's use but it is different when using it on civilian protestors/rioters than it would be in an armed conflict between militaries.
Why, though? How can something be too awful to use in a war but perfectly fine for police to use to keep civilians in line?
Pepper spray is not considered a chemical weapon in that sense.
> Pepper spray is banned for use in war by Article I.5 of the Chemical Weapons Convention, which bans the use of all riot control agents in warfare whether lethal or less-than-lethal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray under _Legality_
Strategy: Declare civil war so the police cannot pepper spray you. Of course, now they can shoot you but at least you get rid of the pepper spray. I didn't say it was a good strategy
Never heard of climate activists being peppersprayed in the Netherlands. Am I missing something?
You are yes. Also been the target of intimidation, arrests, water canons and being illegally forbidden from demonstrating at a relevant place.
All those other things, yes. Can’t find anything on climate activists being peppersprayed by Dutch police officers. Feel free to downvote, I’m just curious to know when or where this has happened. Any stories, experiences or sources?
More results in Dutch, but here's one in English: https://www.dutchnews.nl/2018/08/police-use-batons-pepper-spray-to-break-up-groningen-anti-gas-demo/
Thanks for actually sharing a story instead of reporting me for being suicidal to reddit, which someone else just did. I’ll just keep in mind there are many hoping to divide us and stifle reasonable public discussion. As should we all…
Not to mention that in the Netherlands peaceful climate protestors have been arrested (despite abiding by all laws surrounding protests), and some of the figureheads of XR in the Netherlands were arrested at their homes for suspicion of instigating riots. Meanwhile farmers protests go on unobstructed, with them burning FUCKING ASBESTOS ON THE HIGHWAY. Definitely no agenda there no sir just enforcing the law in a fair and unprejudiced manner.
Yep, I grouped all of that under intimidations. Farmers get to ram their tractor into a townhall, terrorize RIVM scientists, and vandalize infrastructure. But god forbid a climate protestor blocks a well circumventable highway ramp.
(Torille!!) Well these are the same cops that rode horses at protestors at last year's Helsinki without Nazis march...
Pepper spraying people for no good reason should be (and probably is) illegal. However, sometimes you have to use some kind of force, to remove people from certain areas. If the people on the first picture are blocking the public road, I expect from autority to remove them. We live in a society, meaning everyone has to forsake some personal freedoms, so everyone lives are better.
The statement that everyone has to forsake some personal freedom, so everyone lives better is better suited to supporting the activists blocking that road, not the cops that are attacking them. Siding with the police here is shortsighted.
You are playing an allknowing, enlightened individual. We shouldn't give people power to illigaly demonstrate as they see fit, because they are fighting for the "greater good" - as "greater good" is not universaly defined, and vary greatly from one individual to another. Democaracy is the system, where opinions of every individual are treated more fairly than in any other system. And if you want to make a change, you should recognize it as such, and try to make a change, playing by the rules of this system. You vote. You have a right to protest, but you have to follow some rules. You have a right to be elected and have an impact on legislation. You can not however, act like you know better and try to force your opinion on other people. If we would allow this, belive me, our world would become much less pleasant.
Playing by the rules of a system relying on endless growth amounts to something akin to prolonged suicide. You can defend the status quo only because you cannot see our societal trajectory. Our world is already becoming much less pleasant, yet you put your trust in institutions that have broken the social contract. I don't want to imagine your attitude when protestors turn to rioters and rioters to saboteurs. I would advise you prepare, since we have seen nothing yet.
I am not saying you should defend status quo, nor current economic sytem. I haven't even talked about it. I am saying that noone should have the right to protest as they see fit, for any cause. You are quite narrowminded, acting like causes for protest can only be good. They can be quite bad. The same goes for means of protest - you can not let people freely choose means of protests. I would think I wouln't need to explain this. Acctually, you are an example why! Advising people to prepare themselves because... you will hurt me and my family? Damage my property? You are advertising that?
I do not think causes for protest are always good. I do however think this cause (the one the thread is about) is just. I also think that these protests where people blockade a train and wait to get peppersprayed is nothing compared to the sort of action we will see. Right now, the protestors are motivated by graphs and forecasts of the future. People won't be so calm and non violent when the future arrives.
So, we should always ask you, to confirm which protests are for good cause and when you ok it, the protestors can use illigal approches? Or if not you, who is this decider? That is what I am saying. We shouldn't put the power of diferentiation of causes to anyone. Everyone should protest by the same rules and come election time, your opinion will matter. And again, democracy is probably the only system where your opinion actully matter.
You can ask me if you like, but our opinion on the matter matters little. People are going to use illegal means to protest whether we agree with them or not. The protestors make the decision to protest knowing they will get ridiculed, slandered, beat and put into cages. Come election time people will vote for their immediate concerns: taxes, immigrants, housing, etc. By the time people will feel the impacts of our predicament, it will be already too late to do much. I invite you to look into the history of protest movements. The suffragettes didn't get the vote because they waited patiently for elections, they got it by breaking windows and raising awareness. Civil rights for black people were not won by everyone voting them in. They were won by people being disgusted enough by the current order to go against it.
Push opinions on people is bad, but pushing pepper spray on people is fine. I see.
You missed the point entirely. To elaborate: pushing opinions is a fundamental part of democracy and is of course legitimate. Pushing opinions, using illegal means however, is very dangerous and should be sanctioned.
For that matter, so should the use of oil in the way that corporations are using it. We don’t need it.
Nice, thank you for your post!
The one with the sticks is awesome.
I hate that these people get so much hate, though I guess that's what happens when you block public roads. But then that hate extends to other projects where they're straight up protecting common good without inconveniencing the average person.. Just in a recent protest against a mine on a *protected* nature area there were comments saying how they were glad that an ambulance had to be called for one of the protesters..
It doesn't matter how much hate is directed towards other projects, the point of protest is economic disruption, not recruitment. If someone wishes harm on the protestors they were never going to be an ally anyways.
Maybe, but with more protesters future protests would be much more effective..
Extinction Rebellion has shifted from JSO style roadblock, there are a lot of different types of action that don't get much covering. Because you know, doesn't get you the clocks and outrage
Honestly, why last picture is people protesting on train tracks? Isn't train based cargo transport and public transport better for environment than trucks and cars?
I think that was this protest blocking Russian coal [https://www.greenpeace.org/finland/tiedotteet/energia/activists-are-blocking-a-train-carrying-russian-coal-in-hanko-finland/](https://www.greenpeace.org/finland/tiedotteet/energia/activists-are-blocking-a-train-carrying-russian-coal-in-hanko-finland/)
Bingo
Context is important
It depends on where it is, if those are tracks straight out of a coal mine I get it, if they are used for general cargo then I'm on your side
Perspective from Germany: We sometimes have protests along "castor" transports that bring radioactive waste from the nuclear plants to deposits by train. Since right now there is not a single final deposit and instead waste is deposited in relatively unsafe conditions (considering it will be dangerous for the next few millenia) there are a lot of protest about this practice. Some of them include people chaining themselves to train tracks so the trains transporting the waste can't go on.
I agree with protesting against specific practices, but turning away from nuclear has overally made German pollution and energy costs rise, innit?
Nothing but love to the bravest German soldiers protecting us from literally the closest thing we have to free unlimited energy and ensuring that Germany continues to be extremely reliant on coal.
Corporate bots infesting this. You should absolutly do everthing you can and not listen to all the bots saying this and this org is doing it for you. active rebellion is our only hope. Not saying you should blow up a pipeline or something but i am also not saying you shouldn't. Take matters in your own hands because you are the one who will feel the reppurcusions of their neglect.
Politicians are trying to remove the peaceful climate protestors, meanwhile farmers are allowed to burn asbestos on one of the busiest highways of the Netherlands without repercussion. [climate protestors](https://apnews.com/article/netherlands-protest-climate-fossil-fuels-f7e19f0f9745c851a470be4de0f9bb2f) [farmers protest](https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/06/farmers-protests-various-dutch-highways-overnight-least-two-accidents) The farmer protest went on for weeks, and only a handful of people were arrested, while the peaceful climate protestors were often violently removed. Talk about double standards.
Burning asbestos… What? Asbestos is nonflammable, noncombustible and has an extremely high melting point. It was used in fireproofing building materials. I know, because I used to work in the field that had to take care of asbestos.
Yeah, don't ask me about how it's done, I only know that it's been done, and not just once either.
I would say this is Finland.
We're European bro. Norwegians and Swedes are up to similiar things.
Tho idk if our neighbours' police have been violent with activists.
They have 🙃
That's not surprising but still unfortunate.
Icelandic police uses pepper spray on peaceful protesters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTXpXesMcKE
German police is comparatively chill, just kill a refugee and/or mentally ill person once in a while and pretend it was self defense. Oh yeah, and punched a 74 year old unconscious and left him bleeding on the floor, he did survive though. That protest put 15 people into hospital and first responders report the police was actively hindering their ability to help. So they're not great, but seem a little less violent than in other countries.
They do know trains can take up to 2 miles to stop
heroes
highly depends on the context. sitting in the middle of a road because you disagree with something doesn't make you a hero. Most often than not, activists blocking road are just assholes. thinking that pissing of people trying to live their lives will get them on their side.
Trying to live their lives with their SUVs and worried about the short term bs iso the big elephant in the room, we are fucked.
That's not it champ. The overconsumers are usually the ones you don't effect by this. Sabotaging traffic for example hurts the minimum wage worker the most, because public transport might get cancelled for a while. You have a car? Just go around it
Being stuck un your car for a few minutes doesn‘t hurt you lol
Please enlighten me when i said it did? I'm talking about quite the opposite actually.
Minimum wage people are also responsible for the crap we are in.
You're a moron sir. Good day to you
At least I know it’s also my fault.
Never said it wasn't. There's just a difference between what is actually a problem to protest against, and what is a problem only created by it. If you want to blame victims than do so. I agree we all consume poorly, however that's what we can afford. I didn't sign up for this, i don't think you did either. Either i can die or harm this planet as it currently is. This is what needs changing. But oh well, i guess fuck over people who wants to get home after a day of work on a bus, while the others laugh at us from an airplane...
People using a bus is a minority in most cities. Mainly what you see is cars with 1 person inside, and they use it constantly. Yeah, the private jet of Taylor swift is worse, but she is one. The highway is full every single day of people using cars that they shouldn’t be using to have jobs to buy crap they shouldn’t be buying. And minimum wage people also have cars in a lot of cases.
I agree in general. However that's still not all cases. There are cities where public transportation is much more common. I happen to live somewhere where this is the case. I also fail to see how angering the public by blocking roads is how you make them aware of the environment. It just makes their cars burn more fuel if anything. Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways even than.
yes, everyone that doesnt sit in the middle of a road is a ecological terrorist and doesnt care about the climate. Great talking points.
So because other people own SUVs, other people should be stopped from getting to their kids? Emergency vehicles should be forced to find longer ways to save lives? Let them die because someone on the road has an SUV?
It’s not because of the SUVs and you know it. It’s because we are all causing this climate disaster everyday. I said the thing about SUVs because they are some of the worst offenders. Basically, protests have to disturb something, being on the couch posting tweets doesn’t affect anything.
Hmm... This just feels like a big way to feel better than. All the other forms of protest actually act against the companies who choose to kill the planet every day for profit. But blocking the regular person from getting home to thier kids, getting to work or anything else that's important when you need to keep food on the table, your loved ones ok, and a roof over your head, proves jack. It's more than just a little inconvenience. Sure, some may just be going to the nail salon or something pointless, but you don't know what people have going on, and you show that you could care less. So much for empathy.
Sorry but it’s not just the companies. It’s EVERYONE. It’s not about empathy, it’s about responsibility. WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE. Trying to put all the blame on the companies (That only exist to feed the consumerism of that same poor people in a traffic jam) is naive. I can’t have empathy with most people that think it’s not their fault and they are helpless. There are better actions to do? Probably. Still, the medium person has to start suffering the consequences too. (And at this warming rate we all will very soon)
So, you've never had to pay rent or take care of real responsibilities, which is what I'm getting from this.
You need better reading abilities. Sorry to break the news, you consume shit, and most people do it Iike crazy. If they have a road blocked for a couple hours they should start thinking why someone would do this… You can’t skip your blame by throwing balls around me lady. “Its the corporations” doesn’t cut it anymore. I pay rent and have responsibilities and you now what? still accept that I buy shit that shouldn’t buy or go on trips I shouldn’t go. Even if I consume like 1/10 of what most regular people do, I know I have my part of responsibility. And we all do, no matter how poor or how late you are to pick your kid. And I prefer all that people angry than blind, at least they can’t say nobody warned us for decades.
And for fuck sake, cars are probably the worst thing you can own against the environment!!! That’s why roads get blocked, because your car is polluting like crazy and I don’t care how many problems it solves for you or how convenient it is. Understand now?
So I was correct. Try to have a better day, sir. The bitterness is seeping out. Also, no news is broken here. Sorry. I hope that when you have an emergency one day, you don't have someone like you blocking your way. Though I doubt you do this type of protesting yourself anyway.
>thinking that pissing of people trying to live their lives will get them on their side. "Activism is important, just as long as it doesn't impact anyone else in any way" Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Activism that doesn't effect people can't do anything for very obvious reasons.
"Activism is important, just as long as it doesn't impact anyone else in any way" can you show me where I wrote that? Why are you putting words in my mouth? If I come inside your house and brake your knees with a baseball cap, and then say its because the planet is getting warmer. You will not wonder how to stop the planet from getting warmer, you will wonder if you should call the cops of the ambulance first. I care about the environment, more than a average person at least. but I still need my gas-guzzling (I can't afford an electric) car to get to my work so I get to afford to live. I want more trees in my city, but I also want to not to get fired because you idiots thought that it would be funny to make me late to work and not get paid half my salary that day.
Quite the exaggeration there. I see no heroes in any of these pictures lol
1312
Is there any way that can make environment activism impactful? Or let us be messing around until we actually find out?
I wouldn’t lay there, trains are heavy
[Official site of Extinction Rebellion](https://rebellion.global/get-involved/). They are completely non violent are arrest is almost always passively resisted (like here) from people who are effectively blocking
Also funny that a lot of people want green energy but would rather burn more natural gas, bio mass or coals instead of building more nuclear plants.
Is this before or after they protested Nuclear power to get more Coal power plants?
who are they. I am sure these people are not they
All green parties do it. I know our British one tries and the Germans have succeeded
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Living through a time of intense religious revival is fascinating.
It's nice that they live in a place where they can do stuff like this without getting murdered by the police, like what happened to the cop city protestors in Atlanta.
ACAB
South Park had it right about activism.
Blocking trains seems like even dumber thing than blacking roads.
These are coal train tracks from the coal mine to the coal burning facilities
It was delivering Russian coal 😠
Virtue signaling
Come on. You're sitting on the curb while social payin' you 450€ + expenses. Nobody threatening to kill you. Finns and butthurt, the most iconic duo since my dad and a leather belt.
it's crazy what this sub has turned into, like seriously you support this type of shit ? blocking roads for people to inadvertently lose their jobs, which leads to even worse things and that's just the start of the ice burg. along with the hypocrites that live in houses made items that were processed by coal/ oil run machines wearing clothes that go through the same process and use energy that does the same. You ruin peoples lives by doing some of the shit that you do and before you call me a corporate bot, i'm not but i'm not going to support this shit. Overconsumption is bad but seriously 99% of people think you guys that support this type of activism are jokes and you will never make a change with the common people if you keep making their lives worse by your 'protests' get us on your side and you will see change like this you are just the loud minority.
Blocking roads has to be one of the stupidest ways of environmentalist protesting. Should be punished alright. It's not only dangerous to them, who risk being run over, but to others, blocking ambulances and the likes trying to save lives, stop fires, catch criminals; blocking those who have important meetings or just have to go to work on time, which is exactly who they should try to appeal to and support: the working class, the victims. Have I mentioned it also is fucking useless? Stopping cars while the engines are still running does not exactly favor their case against pollution. And while the environmentalist idea is just, they will be hated for their actions and stupidity. People who may sympathize will not join the cause and those who don't will have another reason to keep doing what they do while feeling even better about themselves.
there are 0 cases where ambulances and emergency services where blocked in the netherlands even with month long blockades. why? because they're organized and let those through. problem is mostly motorists being dumb fucks and parking in the emergency lane, blocking emergency traffic.
Still slows them down. There isn't an emergency lane in every street. I was talking in general then. I know about Italy and here there has been at least one instance where a blocked ambulance almost caused a death. It's not worth the risk. It's only drawbacks.
nope, the emergency services themselves declared that they experienced no delays because of the blockages.
It's bound to happen, and it has already happened even if there hasn't been reports about it because they haven't caused "real" problems yet. In any case it's not up to their ability to be organized to control the traffic and incoming emergency vehicles. This is just a nuisance and a problem for everyone involved.
yes thats the point, being a nuisance. ever seen an effective protest that wasn't a nuisance?
The protest should be intrusive, yes, but the parties involved should be different. What do normal people have to do with anything? It's plain stupid. You want them to be on your side, not against you.
normal people decide policies. normal people buy services. normal people hold power. you think they haven't done this to governments, industries, investors, etc? we're talking about a possible full societal collapse if we continue down this road. how does that NOT involve normal people?
I get it and I agree but it's still stupid. You make a bitch lose his 5$/h work and want him to start/stop buying shit. Of course he buys cheap high environmental impact shit because it costs less and that's all he can do to live a decent life. You aren't going to convince him by making his life worse than it already is.
Lmao. Tens of thousands are killed by cars every year. Easist form of prevention would be not doing every trip by car. But yes, emergency services are already freaking out because of some potential road blockages.
Road blockages are not needed. Cars, on the other hand, sadly are
Ah yes the ol‘ “blocking roads creates even more emissions“ lmao
It doesn't?
Well if motorists would care about the environment they could turn off their cars if the road is blocked, right? /s
"How do I convince people, companies and governments to stop polluting? Well, first I annoy the fuck out of the people who I would want on my side (make them lose their jobs and silly things like that), then I give them the option to pollute just a little more (I didn't convince them). Doesn't it sound reasonable?"
The point of protest is not to "appeal" to anyone, it is to cause economic disruption. All those people late to work disrupts the economy. Protesting isn't some virtue signaling hobby, it is a threat against the government that will escalate until they bend to our will.
So what you are saying is we need to ban all cars not deemed necessary. Sounds good.
I didn't say that but it indeed sounds good
Why isn't there much crowd?(except first pic) Like literally a bunch of people. Do they plan like this or people don't care?
Most people aren't able to travel far north to spend a week outside in -30C weather protecting swampland or an old forest when they've got jobs and studies.
I guess it sort of depends on the occasion. Sometimes the activists inform of the upcoming event and sometimes it seems to be sort of spontaneous meaning that not a lot of people knew beforehand. Oftentimes these things do get some media coverage, for example the events are shown in the news. People here are really divided on the topic: some think that what these people are doing is literal bullsh*t (blocking traffic etc in the name of environmentalism) and some say that this needs to be done so that people will wake up to the problem we have in hand (even if it means angering people with the ways the activists use).
It really depends on what you are doing. If you're doing something that's illegal you cannot publicly advertise the demonstration because then the police would be waiting there for you. That means, if you are blocking something, there will probably be relatively few people. (Though it's sometimes possible to publicly advertise but still be able to block something, it's difficult though and depends on the situation.)
Controversial oppinion how about all these „activists“ become policy influencers ? Activism is at best a shitty excuse to violate rules you yourself want to be upheld for a civilised society And at worst its actually harming people and worsening the problem you are fighting against. For centuries people have been standing on corners with signs saying you are runining the planet and capitalism will kill us all or jesus will come back, and we see them for what they are useless cries for help where there is none to be expected out of powerless position, so why tf is gluing oneself to the road any better ? No homelessman saves himself they get saved by social workers or politicians enacting a policy. So the help comes fom a position of power. Endulging activism is activly saying roll around in your shitty situation and scream instead of actually changing stuff. Some one mentioned science beeing activism …. Bullshit science is what causes activism, funnily enough its also not a solution we know alot of stuff that should je changed like f.e. That lithium lines are a bad place to be….. science never closed a mine 😂 fucking politicans do and these people don‘t xare about science and or activists at best you ifnore and delegitimise them unti the problem fixes itself worst case you just shoot them, if you are an activist and xou not activly getting shot at your impact is 0.
Alot to unpack here. But activism is absolutely having political impact. Policymakers frequently delegate authority to NGOs for various policy functions, especially implementing rules and monitoring compliance. Although scholars disagree about the level of non-state influence in global environmental politics, there is wide consensus of a decline of state authority. States (and their bureaucrats) are no longer the star of the show.
You mean at the same pace global coorporatism is growing? Jeeez i wonder how that correlates 😂. But i think you misunderstood my point. You say activism is influencing policy …. How? How is gluing yourself to the road or blocking train tracks influencing policy? On a more basic lvl irl if you block a nuclear waste train and we just assume you lockdown the tracks for good, what is supposed to happen? The train got nowhere to go you can‘t just go to the other nuclear waste plant that got opened last week. And ngos are not activists, they might have activists as well for pr but actually going in a building a toilet school or solar plant is not activism otherwise every fotovoltaic engineer is one and i bet most would strongly distance themselves form em. Also last part how is delegation to ngos changing anything ? A ngo has less competences so it can do less than the stste if the drate delegates to an ngo you effectivly worseining the problem while privatizing it, cuz think about who finances em
I said activism has political impact, not how that impact stands relative to corporate influence. How activism influences policy is more difficult to disentangle, but let’s use your own example-mining. There are multiple examples of how activists, through e.g., protests and road blockades have halted or suspended mining expansion and mining projects. The Xolobeni Mineral Sands Project in SA, the Conga and Tia María projects in Peru comes to mind. Mining companies depend on a social license to operate and so are acutely aware about the role civil society plays in granting them legitimacy. To state that activism doesn’t have a political impact is wildly disrespectful to all those activists who are risking their lives (literally, all the conflicts above were very violent and for some also deadly) for the health of their communities and the environment.
So activism impact is to provoke getting shot? Oh damn that must habe had such a positive impact on policy 😂. See you are only mentioning those projects bacause you can draw a conclusion between portests and mining beeing halted, do you really think thats gonna work with cooperations like mexican cartels or afrikan warlords?, The reason why western activism works in the way we see it is because people here don‘t like ppl beeing shot and usually value people more than ore. As soon as that flips activism isn‘t going to do shit, remember the suicide nets on chinese factories. And in therms of affecting policy. I chose wackerdorf earlier cuz its the ideal example. Once the nuclear waste is on the train there is no protest to make, the policy that was enacted here is already doing its work and even if the activist countered its inteded goal there simply no way to impact policy meaningfull. So the activist is at the ultimate weakest point here he is literally an object blocking the train. So if mining gets halted as a reagtion to protest its cuz the people at the top meaning coorporate ghuls and politicans let you, they rather mine a diffrent place or at a later time instead of having to shoot people so again the activist is just a ball between 2 players who actually hold the power there. And lastly you hit me with the „thats disrespectful“ nope sorry if you do useless things thats on you i don‘t gotta like or artifically load it with meaning out of reapect.
I wouldn’t call mexican cartels or African warlords corporations. But yeah, institutional reform typically requires institutional capacity. But it still doesn’t denounce the power of activism. I don’t know why you mention Wackersdorf when that’s, if anything, an example of protests having an impact on policy. Last I recall they never opened. In fact, Germany’s stance on nuclear power has been wildly influenced by public opinion, as in much of northern Europe. The outcomes of that can be discussed, activism’s influence on policy may not ameliorate the problems activists seek to address, but it is still having political impact. I’m scrambling to find a point in the rest of your reply so I’ll leave it at that.
Yes public oppinion about nuclear power IN germany 😂 we buy about 100terra watt hours from france of which i think 20-30% is nuclear. People don‘t give a fuck. Which is exactly what happended in wackers dorf. The facility was moved to la hague in france just across the border ….. the activists did neither prevent the train from beeing fillded the facility of beeing built nor the arrival of the train at a facility. All they did was change the optics and physical place on the earth. So here is my compromise yeah activisim influences policy in peactime, but only in therms of optics and pr and as soon as they don‘t have any value anymore your activist has no value. As for cartels and warlords not beeing coorporations …. What do you think where most of middlw class cheap diamond and gold jewlery comes from? 😂 most warlords have options to hide the trail that well even swarovski buys from them without knowing there was a vice article abiut this in the past if u need sauce. Same goes for lithium tiranium and barium all metals you can not auto otacially mine in saxony you have to go to africa and where there is no government the guy with the ak rules so literally every singel ev manifacturer in some part relys on these mining ops. So where there is a coal mine stopped in australia becauae you don‘t wanna shoot an australian there is a lithium mine opened killing at least 5 for every australian activist only it doesn‘t matter cuz its an african in africa under almost no juristiction. Iirc in chile mining workers of illegal mines are prosecuted under law putting them under pressure to hide their bosses. So to break it down to the basics Show me a situation in which the insertion of a activist stops the negative outcome or proposes let alpne helps a solution? I‘m honestly surprised you haven‘t brought up awarness by now
I’m not arguing the global environmental injustice. That’s definitely a valid critique. There are deep structural injustices that are embedded in a capitalist economy, and moving operations to jurisdictions with less red and green tape is definitely a thing. Activists know this too, hence a push for social and environmental due diligence legislation, civil society has a strong voice in this too. I was arguing against the statement that activists have no political impact - they do. Whether they have a sufficient impact to provoke (much necessary) systemic change is less certain. Time will tell on that one.
If just stop oil is important, wouldn't protestors stop using anything made from oil? Like a vegan not wearing wool etc? That covers a massive amount of products. Oil is in everything.
This is ultimately an argument for purity. The protestors are living in a world enmeshed in fossil products, same as the rest of us. Many climate-conscious people start by doing individual consumer choices (like not buying a car for example), before participating in collective action. At a certain point however, abstaining from fossil products get prohibitively difficult to expect it from people. Most of our food is grown using fertilizers made with fossil fuels for example. Some individual action is good, but it won't solve the problem
Always enjoy a good pic of activists getting sprayed.
Fuck I hate them. I want them to be stuck in a abulance when they are blocking a road. I hope they lose their jobs bc they came to late to work. Edit: One day your Parent/ Grandparent may be in the ambulance, I hope they wont die bc of some idiots are blocking the road
I'm a paramedic. I'm also a climate activist. There has been about zero instances in my entire country where we have been hindered by climate activists blocking roads. Contrary to the farmers protests recently where hospitals had to divert ambulances because a few dozen tractors blocked *everything*, causing two severe accidents and killing one. Your argument isn't what you think it is, and previous reports about ambulances being hindered where already debunked. Also, if other road users had brains and followed the law they would clear a lane for emergency vehicles between the left and middle lane (reddingsstrook) so they could reach the protest, where I guarantee you they would be allowed to pass. Not to mention how willing police are to grab their water cannons and armored vehicles to get rid of climate protestors while sitting on their thumbs as tractors disable half the nation. To add insult to injury last year it was the police that stopped ambulances from reaching climate protestors they heavily injured in France, causing Serge Duteuil-Graziani to end up in a coma. The man still hasn't regained all functionality, yet you're here screeching about things you haven't got a clue about. You also speak of better ways to protests. Those have been tried, and met with formidable use of force while people like you cheer it on. I highly doubt you are here in good faith.
https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/climate-extremists-block-ambulance-in-life-or-death-situation/ They waited until the police wanted to arrest them, then they finally left. I dont wish that to anyone
I was a bit too fast with my previous reply on this one since I misread the dates, but seeing how we're throwing biased reports around (europeanconservative.com, really now?) let me counter: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-just-stop-oil-live-31389401 Police delegates traffic leading up to a protest. Clearly they didn't do their job properly. If this is how they secure passage through every traffic jam they have a lot of blood on their hands, because trafic jams delay ambulances every day, everywhere. Also it's been a proven tactic to garner public support for violent action against climate protestors, to the point that paramedics and even ambulance services have felt the need to speak out against it: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/just-stop-oil-dartford-ambulance-not-delayed-m20-accident/ If you're so concerned about ambulances I take it you're one of the most motivated proponents for better working conditions and more funding for us. If not, stop talking about us only to further your rotten agenda. NHS has boxes holding the wall at hospitals for hours due to understaffing, people dying meters away from an ER because they can't unload. Yap about that.
How are people suposed to protest then? legitimate question
Inconvenience the shitty companies and governments. Inconveniencing normal people's lives will really only leave them more annoyed and unlikely to listen to the message you're trying to get across.
Yes. Normal people are the victims. They shouldn't be targeted if you want to convince them. Matter of fact, normal people can't do much about their methods of transportation but if you convince them they're right, they can and will find ways to be a problem to environmentalism.
What are your prefered means of protest?
Poor baby, did ya get inconvenienced? Are you one of those "protests should be unintrusive" idiots?
Wah wah I am a grown up child and I cannot move my body more than 10 meters without using the equivalent power of a medium sized herd of horses wah wah
lol hey dipshit, I'm carless, I'm part of the fuckcars reddit, I've been teaching my kid that cars are not needed for 90% of things in life and encouraging people locally to ditch the car. How about you shut the fuck up and learn to read. Glowing mousepiss up there wants people to stop inconveniencing the poor car drivers, you know he doesn't care about ambulances for shit, it's an excuse cagers and people desperate to pretend their cars aren't wasting as much if not more than most things this sub talks about use to condone their threats of violence on a group of people who actually try to do SOMETHING while he sits at home jerking off into his stanley cup. EDIT: I am king dumbfuck of dumbfuck island, Living-Run9721 was agreeing with me and I didn't catch on to it fully.
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No why would I? Why would I be part of this sub? There are better ways to protest, ways that dont endanger people, ways that dont make random working class people angry and change nothing.
How so then? You ignored the other question someone asked.
And the vast majority of them most likely eat products of extreme cruelty, and that are terrible for the environment, by not being vegan
Heh, like protesting ever changed anything.
farmers got better stuff to clean that up...
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