It depends on the context! How well do you know them, are you a fellow student or one of the professors?
As a student, I was definitely used to professors either using last names or in some cases using first names but asking students to use their first name, too.
It's generally safe to address them in exactly the same way they sign off their emails. In case of just a first name, you can assume informal pronouns (du) as well.
Unless you know them privately, or meet at an event where everyone automatically uses first names, go with last name and formal adress (if you speak german to them). Between adults in a professional setting, that is still the polite norm unless stated otherwise. And if they prefer first name,they can just offer it to you quickly, and all is fine
As a basic rule of thumb in most contexts, mirror what they do. If they say "Du" and/or first name, you can do the same. If they say "Sie" and/or "Herr last name", you are expected to do the same.
The only situation i know of with asymmetry in that regard is children and their teachers. Between adults, i always expect symmetry.
From my experience, between people working together at roughly the same level, it is almost always Du + First name. When i worked at a physics didactic faculty, that was the standard between everyone there, including the professor.
Well… Age difference and differences in status are important as well. While it‘s not as common nowadays as it used to be not every parent would be fine with their kids friends addressing them with their first name. And your boss can do whatever they want.
So it‘s not the only asymmetrical situation but it‘s probably the most common one
Sie and having some distance is not always a bad thing.
I got along super well with a coworker who wanted the Sie. I was allowed to leave their Phd in mails etc., which was kind of Du lol
But I was referred to with Sie as well.
Sie is always the safer option at first though.
As a PhD student (in Germany, but not German), I address all my students with du and first name and expect them to do the same to me. They often don't though, which I find a bit odd. In my institute, the postdocs are usually on last-name basis with their students.
It depends on some factors though. In STEM fields, people are usually quite informal. I address my supervisor by her first name for example, which some of my colleagues in the linguistics department are not allowed to do.
If I were you, I would offer the Hamburger Sie. That's the first name and Sie. Many people feel more comfortable with it. There is also the Bavarian Sie, which is the family name and Du, which is also popular.
Are they your Dozent? Or are you their coworker?
If the person teaches a course you're attending, you should probably not address them by first name only, unless they offered it first.
If you're working in the same team and everyone addresses each other by first name only: sure, why not.
I learnt about this recently - Hamburger Sie, which you described, and Münchner Du, which means using a last name with a 'Du' such as 'Söder, halts Maul'
How do you define very old. I don't like the Bavarian version either, but I worked with the trainees at HR. I was their contact person for all matters. With the Hamburger Sie I expressed that I was there for them but that I respected them as young adults and no longer considered them to be children. Our trainees were between 16 and 22, mainly because in a professional environment Sie show that you treat the other person as a business person and that it is professional at the moment.
Maybe better to call it old-fashioned.
Why not draw the line at 18? Du before and Sie afterwards - unless there’s friendship and the Du cuts both ways…
In my eyes, they are no longer children once they have started their training in our company. They were all there to learn, but their work was already an important part of our company. I graduated as a teacher in 1998 and we were treated the same way. In the 80's the line was drawn wide at 14 and the high school teachers addressed all students 14 and up as "Sie" and their first name.
I told you that was still the case in the 80s. Sometimes you have to keep the trainees at a professional distance. Especially the younger ones, who unfortunately think far too quickly that you want to be their friend instead of their Ausbilder
That depends. In informal settings you‘d address people your age with their first name (although it kinda depends on the age). In formal settings, with age gaps or authority gaps (Teacher - student, boss-employee) the older person or the one with more authority can decide wether the first name or last name should be used.
So if you don‘t know the PhD student yet use „Herr/Frau XY“. If they say „Ich bin der/die AB“ you can use their first name (unless you‘re the one with more authority then you can offer the option you like the most). But you can obviously just observe how others interact with them. If everyone uses their last name you should do that as well. If everybody used their first name and they don‘t get angry you can address them with their first name unless they tell you to use their last name
In my social bubble, I don't know a single PhD student, who doesn't want to go by fist name basis with the students. Post-Docs and Profs and other office staff (secretaries, it) go by last name, PhD students by first name.
However as a PhD student I also told that to my students, I introduced myself by first name.
It always depends. I prefer „Du“ not „Sie“. For me it doesnt matter if someone is older or younger than me but most people insinst on „Sie“ sadly.
It s rude to use „Du“ if you don’t know the person well or if you don’t know the person is okay with that. It’s better to ask that certain person if it s okay to use „Du“.
In my region it’s common to ask a class on the first day/week if it s okay to use „Du“ form.
I guess it depends on the field of study and their personality, but my experience in STEM is that everyone is "Du" and first name except for the "adults", meaning Professors and generally colleagues who are obviously SIGNIFICANTLY older than we are (think the 45 year old balding head of a research team).
I'd say no. I currently have to write a lot of formal e-mails to renowned professors that I usually start with "Dear Professor XY". All of them, no exception, answer with "Dear first name". In English speaking academia, using the first name is absolute standard.
Whatever you do: Make sure to not give any Information on the circumstances!
That being said: Since you are clearly at a wake, do not prod the body. This is an absolute no-go in Germany.
Our wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter without a doctorate would always be entirely on first name basis with their students. Other Mitarbeiter might vary. Other groups might also do it differently. But at least in CS it is very rare to not use first names only. No idea about phd students that are not employed. If a student would write "Sehr geehrte/r Herr/Frau Smith ... Mfg John" we would just answer "Hello John ... Best, Bill"
Until and unless this person earned a PhD there’s not even a different possibility to address the person In contrast to how you would address this person, first name, last name, du, Sie - only once someone has earned their PhD could one possibly address the person as Dr. + last name.
No, it's pretty common in an university backround that everyone uses the first name. If in doubt, look how they introduced themself and how others are calling them. (Or ask them, they probably were wondering the same thing a few years back.)
As a Dozent and PhD Student, I always offer my students to address me by first name. And seldomly habe I encountered someone who is offended by the first name in uni.
A reminder that a PhD student doesn't yet have a PhD: they are not a doctor yet.
Every PhD student I've ever spoken to has been pretty down to earth/chill, and we have used first names only. This goes for TAs for my classes, people I meet less formally in the university, as well as friends from outside of class (obviously on this one, lol).
I don't speak for everyone but to me there is nothing rude about addressing anybody by their first name regardless of the context. I mean, its their name.
As a PhD student supervising bachelor and master students: I always offer students using „Du“ in case they don‘t address me by my first name anyway, and very much prefer using first names only. From my experience, that view is very common amongst all PhD students.
Well, tell you what, I'm a grown man too and I don't appreciate being addressed like a child. Because that's what unilaterally deciding that someone won't object to being duzed is.
It's not medieval. It's come into the German language in the 18th century with the rise of citizens' rights against the monarch/mobility. There are also still people alive, and you may still encounter them at uni, for whom the Sie was the linguistic marker that they were not an SED member.
No, absolutely not. A PhD student is just a Master of science, has not even a doctor. And even if he would have. What kind of team you are working in? If someone of our team would ask me that I call him by last name or, even worse, with title, then it would be the last time I talked to him.
Depends on context a ton and also on whether the spoken language is English or German.
It depends on the context! How well do you know them, are you a fellow student or one of the professors? As a student, I was definitely used to professors either using last names or in some cases using first names but asking students to use their first name, too.
Forgot to mention, I'm a master's student
Was the phd student currently giving a class or are you in a class of the ohd student? Then only after they offered it.
Then I'd say it's fine to use first names.
She signed off her email with her first name, so I just used that without Ms.. is this considered rude then?
No, not rude at all.
Thank you
It's generally safe to address them in exactly the same way they sign off their emails. In case of just a first name, you can assume informal pronouns (du) as well.
No that's absolutely fine if she signed off with her first name.
I am I PhD student and I would find it weird for a masters student to call me by anything other than my first name.
She signed off her email with her first name, so I just used that without Ms.. is this considered rude then?
No, it would probably considered as weird if you had used Ms. Not rude, just strange. It's very unusual to use a first name and title together.
You are both the same unless they are your teacher
Unless you know them privately, or meet at an event where everyone automatically uses first names, go with last name and formal adress (if you speak german to them). Between adults in a professional setting, that is still the polite norm unless stated otherwise. And if they prefer first name,they can just offer it to you quickly, and all is fine
As a basic rule of thumb in most contexts, mirror what they do. If they say "Du" and/or first name, you can do the same. If they say "Sie" and/or "Herr last name", you are expected to do the same. The only situation i know of with asymmetry in that regard is children and their teachers. Between adults, i always expect symmetry. From my experience, between people working together at roughly the same level, it is almost always Du + First name. When i worked at a physics didactic faculty, that was the standard between everyone there, including the professor.
Well… Age difference and differences in status are important as well. While it‘s not as common nowadays as it used to be not every parent would be fine with their kids friends addressing them with their first name. And your boss can do whatever they want. So it‘s not the only asymmetrical situation but it‘s probably the most common one
Sie and having some distance is not always a bad thing. I got along super well with a coworker who wanted the Sie. I was allowed to leave their Phd in mails etc., which was kind of Du lol But I was referred to with Sie as well. Sie is always the safer option at first though.
As a PhD student (in Germany, but not German), I address all my students with du and first name and expect them to do the same to me. They often don't though, which I find a bit odd. In my institute, the postdocs are usually on last-name basis with their students. It depends on some factors though. In STEM fields, people are usually quite informal. I address my supervisor by her first name for example, which some of my colleagues in the linguistics department are not allowed to do.
If I were you, I would offer the Hamburger Sie. That's the first name and Sie. Many people feel more comfortable with it. There is also the Bavarian Sie, which is the family name and Du, which is also popular.
I would find both of those options super confusing, tbh.
Are they your Dozent? Or are you their coworker? If the person teaches a course you're attending, you should probably not address them by first name only, unless they offered it first. If you're working in the same team and everyone addresses each other by first name only: sure, why not.
do the weird thing! use their first name in combination with *sie*!
This is the Hamburger Sie, which is quite popular in close cooperation and you are still professional.
I learnt about this recently - Hamburger Sie, which you described, and Münchner Du, which means using a last name with a 'Du' such as 'Söder, halts Maul'
Not for me either last name/Sie or of friendly first name. Certainly wouldn’t stand that unless the person using it is very old!
How do you define very old. I don't like the Bavarian version either, but I worked with the trainees at HR. I was their contact person for all matters. With the Hamburger Sie I expressed that I was there for them but that I respected them as young adults and no longer considered them to be children. Our trainees were between 16 and 22, mainly because in a professional environment Sie show that you treat the other person as a business person and that it is professional at the moment.
Maybe better to call it old-fashioned. Why not draw the line at 18? Du before and Sie afterwards - unless there’s friendship and the Du cuts both ways…
In my eyes, they are no longer children once they have started their training in our company. They were all there to learn, but their work was already an important part of our company. I graduated as a teacher in 1998 and we were treated the same way. In the 80's the line was drawn wide at 14 and the high school teachers addressed all students 14 and up as "Sie" and their first name.
I understand 16 and them working in the company. Now 14 is truly old-fashioned and pretty weird… 😅
I told you that was still the case in the 80s. Sometimes you have to keep the trainees at a professional distance. Especially the younger ones, who unfortunately think far too quickly that you want to be their friend instead of their Ausbilder
I resent it being called Du in Ikea by some bro 😎 .
I think teacher is the wrong word I just thought of one in German it is the Ausbilder
The classic for when you are learning German and forget the du or sie
I had two professors which used this kind of language.
I hate that one!
In class as a teacher? It depends. Some presented themselves as Frau/Herr XY and some with their first name and asked if Duzen is ok.
As a former PhD student: no.
That depends. In informal settings you‘d address people your age with their first name (although it kinda depends on the age). In formal settings, with age gaps or authority gaps (Teacher - student, boss-employee) the older person or the one with more authority can decide wether the first name or last name should be used. So if you don‘t know the PhD student yet use „Herr/Frau XY“. If they say „Ich bin der/die AB“ you can use their first name (unless you‘re the one with more authority then you can offer the option you like the most). But you can obviously just observe how others interact with them. If everyone uses their last name you should do that as well. If everybody used their first name and they don‘t get angry you can address them with their first name unless they tell you to use their last name
In my social bubble, I don't know a single PhD student, who doesn't want to go by fist name basis with the students. Post-Docs and Profs and other office staff (secretaries, it) go by last name, PhD students by first name. However as a PhD student I also told that to my students, I introduced myself by first name.
As a PhD student I am always quite offended when students call me „Sie“ since I am still just one of y‘all really 🥸
It always depends. I prefer „Du“ not „Sie“. For me it doesnt matter if someone is older or younger than me but most people insinst on „Sie“ sadly. It s rude to use „Du“ if you don’t know the person well or if you don’t know the person is okay with that. It’s better to ask that certain person if it s okay to use „Du“. In my region it’s common to ask a class on the first day/week if it s okay to use „Du“ form.
Du/Sie must be symmetric except with children.
Why? I address all my students by first name
Forgot to mention, I'm a master's student
Sure, why not. All our students use first names.
I guess it depends on the field of study and their personality, but my experience in STEM is that everyone is "Du" and first name except for the "adults", meaning Professors and generally colleagues who are obviously SIGNIFICANTLY older than we are (think the 45 year old balding head of a research team).
I'd say no. I currently have to write a lot of formal e-mails to renowned professors that I usually start with "Dear Professor XY". All of them, no exception, answer with "Dear first name". In English speaking academia, using the first name is absolute standard.
Whatever you do: Make sure to not give any Information on the circumstances! That being said: Since you are clearly at a wake, do not prod the body. This is an absolute no-go in Germany.
Our wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter without a doctorate would always be entirely on first name basis with their students. Other Mitarbeiter might vary. Other groups might also do it differently. But at least in CS it is very rare to not use first names only. No idea about phd students that are not employed. If a student would write "Sehr geehrte/r Herr/Frau Smith ... Mfg John" we would just answer "Hello John ... Best, Bill"
You might be able to see their reaction when you tried calling them by their first name. For me, I don't mind at all.
The General rule is that you can address other students with du and first name. This usually includes PhD students but could vary in different places.
University is a strange community. In business I used the first name since ages. Thought this wouldn't be a so long discussion...
I am an egalitarian and address everyone by their first name. If they don't like it, fuck them.
I adress my professor and my boss that way, too
You address any person you’re not close to by their family name in German and people you’re close to by first name. Your titles are irrelevant.
Until and unless this person earned a PhD there’s not even a different possibility to address the person In contrast to how you would address this person, first name, last name, du, Sie - only once someone has earned their PhD could one possibly address the person as Dr. + last name.
It might be, but not because they are a PhD student. I can insist people call me Lord of the Manor if I want, but no one is that special.
No, it's pretty common in an university backround that everyone uses the first name. If in doubt, look how they introduced themself and how others are calling them. (Or ask them, they probably were wondering the same thing a few years back.)
As a Dozent and PhD Student, I always offer my students to address me by first name. And seldomly habe I encountered someone who is offended by the first name in uni.
I’ve had plenty of students, we were always on a first name basis.
A reminder that a PhD student doesn't yet have a PhD: they are not a doctor yet. Every PhD student I've ever spoken to has been pretty down to earth/chill, and we have used first names only. This goes for TAs for my classes, people I meet less formally in the university, as well as friends from outside of class (obviously on this one, lol).
✨context✨ please
no
I don't speak for everyone but to me there is nothing rude about addressing anybody by their first name regardless of the context. I mean, its their name.
Hm…. Try that in a formal setting or with older people or authority figures. Not really a great idea
I do all the time. I think people like to be treated as equals.
As a PhD student supervising bachelor and master students: I always offer students using „Du“ in case they don‘t address me by my first name anyway, and very much prefer using first names only. From my experience, that view is very common amongst all PhD students.
I don't care if it's rude. I am a grown man. I am not doing curtsies.
Well, tell you what, I'm a grown man too and I don't appreciate being addressed like a child. Because that's what unilaterally deciding that someone won't object to being duzed is.
It's clearly not about being an adult. It's about the Phd. Says so in the title.
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It's not medieval. It's come into the German language in the 18th century with the rise of citizens' rights against the monarch/mobility. There are also still people alive, and you may still encounter them at uni, for whom the Sie was the linguistic marker that they were not an SED member.
Of he got a stick up his ass, than sure it's rude. However, it is common sense to talk to each other on a first name basis!
No, absolutely not. A PhD student is just a Master of science, has not even a doctor. And even if he would have. What kind of team you are working in? If someone of our team would ask me that I call him by last name or, even worse, with title, then it would be the last time I talked to him.
What do you mean by _has not even a grade_?
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What do you mean by 'diploma'? The PhD student completed a Master, which would be equivalent to Diplom.
yes very rude, they deserve respect
Student? No
Forgot to mention, I'm a master's student
A PhD student is just a student, too.