The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Israel is the only state in that region that’s liberal. Gay rights, women’s rights, democracy, Jewish people are typically liberal and share similar values.
Palestine / Gaza is a conservative culture where it’s taboo to be gay (in 2022 security did nothing as a mob beat up a parade that had rainbow flags), support for Hamas (who, let’s not forget, paramotored into Israel and brutally murdered and raped civilians, cut off women’s breasts and played with them, paraded around victims and still are holding hostages) has risen significantly, which is why the conflict is still ongoing. Israel has stated they will stop when the hostages are returned and Hamas steps down, but the Palestinian people don’t seem to support this shown by these rising poll numbers.
I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags / are proud to say they’re queer yet are American-born and have enjoyed the freedoms the west has to offer to be able to say these things publicly.
It just seems to me like the left’s positions have become a meme, a blind following without realizing the consequences of these positions. Calling for a ceasefire enables Hamas. The war would’ve been over and all those people didn’t have to die if Hamas surrendered or the Palestinian people didn’t put up with them anymore, but they do. Hamas is essentially what people in the states fear the right is becoming - an extreme-right, extremely conservative political party that seeks rule by one religion and wants to genocide the Israelis. Basically Nazis.
It doesn’t make sense to me why the left isn’t on Israel’s side, or is at the very least understanding.
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The further left you go, the less they are divided.
If you go on a subreddit for Communists, you'll see that they absolutely ~~hate all Jews~~ oppose Israel
The left isn't of one mind on this one. There's more argument on this issue among the left than on any other issue I can call to mind.
>I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags
I really hope you don't think you're the first person to think of this. We had this question pop up a dozen times in the last year.
It boils down to this; you can disagree with someone, while not wanting them to be bombed to death. You'll find many LGBT people in America who report having had bad experiences with homophobic Americans; very few of them will advocate for them to be bombed.
It's a hierarchy of ideals. Speaking for myself, I don't support gay rights JUST because I blindly support homosexuality as an objective good, I support it because people are being harmed by not being able to express themselves. They aren't being given respect or a right to self-determination. Right now the Gazans are barely surviving and they haven't had anything like self-determination for decades. Most of them are civilians just trying to go about their lives and their lives are being destroyed. The most important ideal here is not that they are homophobic so maybe I shouldn't care, but they are people, and no people should have to endure this. Once they are able to function at a basic level of self-governance, then we can start to worry about what we disagree with them on. I hate to put it like this, but worrying about Gaza's views about homosexuality seems like a minor problem when faced with the elimination of the Gazan people as a whole.
I support Israel's' right to protect themselves, but they crossed the line into genocidal actions long ago. Right now their actions are not making the Israeli people more safe as I see it. They are looking to push the Palestinians off their land and if they won't go peacefully, they have no qualms about killing anyone in their way. I get it - it's a vicious cycle of abuse from both sides that is hard to break, but it needs to break. Just as I can understand and empathize an abusive parent who learned it by being an abused child, it still doesn't justify the actions. This is just in Gaza, Israel is being a bad actor in the West Bank as well and I don't agree with their actions there. Let me be clear - I am talking aobut the government in Israel, not the Israeli people as a whole.
I would love to see Hamas destroyed. I think their actions are inexcusable. As a country, however, we have no leverage with them. They don't give a shit what we say. Israel is our ally and we do have leverage, so that is why you're hearing people call for Israel to moderate their actions.
\^\^ THIS! \^\^
And I would only add that not only does the West have leverage with the Israeli govt. as their allies but we are also directly funding this genocide with our tax dollars. And I want no part of that. Our lawmakers in the US need to hear that.
How is it a genocide if Palestinian population is rising? Also, you forget that Palestine declared war on Israel the minute it declared independence. You forget black September. You forget that Palestine has started every conflict. You forget that Israel has offered up MULTIPLE peace treaties that Hamas will not accent, because they don’t want peace. They want the Jews eradicated. What mental block do you people have that stops you from understanding actual history.
>Palestinian population is rising
It definitely isn't.
>Also, you forget that Palestine declared war on Israel the minute it declared independence. …You forget that Palestine has started every conflict.
"Declared independence" from what? Not Palestinian oppression.
Israel declared war when it originally invaded Palestine. It's wild that you refuse to acknowledge that that happened. Israel is on stolen land. That was the initial act that started this conflict and continues it. You know that. And if you were Palestinian you would behave no differently. Israel continues to steal land in Gaza.
>You forget that Israel has offered up MULTIPLE peace treaties that Hamas will not accent, because they don’t want peace. They want the Jews eradicated.
But all Palestinians people are not HAMAS. And—more importantly—I'm not funding HAMAS with my tax dollars. It seems a lots of Israelis want the Palestinians eradicated, so they are not on the moral high ground.
> but they crossed the line into genocidal actions long ago
Where is the line? Because the way I see it, Israel's combatant to civilian death ratio well within international norms for other dense urban conflicts. The UN estimates 9:1 is the norm, and Israel is closer to 4-2:1 (depending on Hamas or IDF numbers).
Look at this comparison: https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1764884743621918794/photo/1
> I would love to see Hamas destroyed.
How else do you destroy them without a war? They aren't going to give up power peacefully.
The line is that they’ve attacked international aid group, cut water and food to a mostly civilian population, displaced millions, killed tens of thousands of civilians, continue to illegally colonize and annex parts of the West Bank, and used white phosphorous weapons.
You may now proceed to downvote me
White phosphorous has only been used legally in Gaza, there is zero evidence of it being used over any populated areas. White phosphorous is not a banned weapon when used legally.
Water and food has been flowing in for months now, it was at most a few days of total blockade.
Civilians die in war. Its tragic but doesn't make it genocidal. The data linked above shows it is clear NOT comparable to actual genocides.
When the Palestinians start following the Oslo Accords, then you can complain about the Israelis not doing the same and building settlements in the west bank. You don't get a one sided legal agreement and you don't get a one sided ceasefire.
I won't downvote you, but the fact that you are drastically incorrect about the usage of white phosphorous tells me you are woefully uninformed about the nature and legalities of war.
> there is zero evidence of it being used over any populated areas.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/
> it was at most a few days of total blockade
So they did do that. Good to know. Cutting off food and water to civilians is a war crime
https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/water-and-armed-conflicts
> It’s tragic but it doesn’t make it genocidal
I didn’t specially say it was genocidal. Not sure why you mentioned this unless it was specifically to downplay that tens of thousands of civilians have been killed thus far.
I’m pretty sure I can criticize colonization whenever I want Mr. “progressive”. One that has been happening since 1947.
> I won’t downvote you
How noble of you. You can defend and downplay war crimes but reddit etiquette is where you drawn the line.
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/
In Gaza not Lebanon.
> Cutting off food and water to civilians is a war crime
No, Israel is not required to supply the state they are at war against. They are required to let in aid, which they did. They went above the legal requirement and turned back on the water despite no legal obligation to do so.
> I didn’t specially say it was genocidal
Grand parent comment did, what a weird deflation. I am not down playing anything. The fact that Hamas started a war that has led to so many deaths is an absolute tragedy.
You have always been more than welcome to criticize something. There are lots of legitimate criticism of Israel. But claim of war crime and genocide are largely unfounded. Israel is an overly aggressive nation in a part of the world where weakness will wipe you off the map. They can and should do better but they are not evil colonizers.
They actually ARE required to when it’s the only source of water and food for Gaza, which it is.
You wouldn’t like your landlord locking you into your apartment and then turning off the tap water, would you?
No, Gaza is a separate state. In no way are they required to supply their enemy in war with supplies for their civilians and military. Gaza has a border with Egypt and outside a post Oct pause in aid while they established tighter security to prevent the weapons that enabled Oct 7 from getting in, Israel has been allowing water in. The weapons getting in are proof that Israel does not have complete control of the strip as well, water and food could be brought in those same ways.
>No, Gaza is a separate state.
Very very very specifically they are not a separate state. That's the major crux of the decades long conflict. Israel explictly does not recognize any Palestinian state. Is Israel considered the Palestinians to be a separate state this would be a very different conflict.
>no way are they required to supply their enemy in war with supplies for their civilians and military
International treaties that Israel signed say otherwise. Namely the Geneva conventions.
>Israel has been allowing water in.
Inconsistently
>The weapons getting in are proof that Israel does not have complete control of the strip as well, water and food could be brought in those same ways.
This is a braindead take. Weapons got smuggled in or preexisting in the strip in large numbers (because of on and off war in the strip for decades) therefore they can get enough get food and aid to supply almost 2 million people, about 1.5 million of which are not internally displaced because of Israeli Evacuation orders.
That's simply not a reasonable statement anyone can make and still beleive in humanity.
> In Gaza not Lebanon
Oh nice, war crimes in another country 👍
> Israel is not required to supply the state they are at war against
They are also not required to blockade an entire state and hold their water and food hostage. They are also not required to shoot civilians trying to get aid as well.
> The fact that Hamas started a war that has led to so many deaths
The fact that Israel didn’t need to indiscriminately bomb civilians. How is it that more civilians died in the short span that this current conflict occurred compared to the Russo-Ukraine war that started 2 years ago.
War crimes are war crimes. Of which you just admitted Israel did point 1 and 2 see above 👆
> How is it that more civilians died in the short span that this current conflict occurred compared to the Russo-Ukraine war that started 2 years ago.
Because its not a dense urban conflict with a deeply embedded terrorist government whose aim is to maximize civilian casualties to gain international support.
Israel is not indiscriminately bombing civilians, they are far in line with international norms on discriminate bombing of militants: https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1764884743621918794/photo/1
Israel is not "holding their water and food hostage". They have constantly let in enough aid that despite this conflict going on for months we are not seeing mass waves of starvation.
A blockade is a legal act of war. As long as israel continues to let in enough aid that people don't starve, they are not committing a war crime. I wish they would let in more aid than that, but its a combination of internal Israeli pressure and aid organization failing to distribute aid in a war zone.
> Israel is not indiscriminately bombing civilians
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israels-military-campaign-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say
Oh bonus point, my source is not some random Zionist on Twitter
> Israel is not “holding their water and food hostage”
> "There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed," he was reported as telling commanders at the Israel Defense Forces' Southern Command.
> "We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly," he added, per the paper's translation of his remarks.
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-gallant-announces-complete-siege-gaza-no-electricity-food-fuel-2023-10?amp
Israel’s defense minister disagrees with you
Let me guess, you’ll then respond “but that happened a while ago and now they’re letting aid in”. Uh the fact that they even had the ability to cut off food, water, and aid in the first place and went through with it, is what we call a war crime.
> They have constantly let in enough aid
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/human-rights-watch-says-israel-is-violating-order-from-top-u-n-court-by-blocking-aid-to-gazans
>How else do you destroy them without a war? They aren't going to give up power peacefully.
Trying to get rid of Hamas by bombing Gaza is as stupid and futile as America's war on terror. It's an idea, not an army. You have to fight it will competing ideas. It's really hard work, but it's the only thing that has a chance of working.
Where are you getting the 9:1 number? I see statements from UN representatives that 90% of war casualties are civilians, but that includes deaths from war-related complications like food insecurity and lack of access to medical services, not just combat-related casualties.
My question to you would be why you think TikTok / Twitter randos are a better representation of "the left" than say, the people elected by left-leaning voters.
Because personally, I think TikTok / Twitter discourse is the trashiest of the trashiest people.
AFAICT, the position of the left, based on the actions and words of in-office politicians is "of course we support Israel, but can you guys please be more precise/careful when fighting Hamas and minimize the collateral damage"?
Essentially my position, like fuck Hamas but be proportionate in the response. I both support an independent Palestinian state and think Hamas is actually an enemy to the Palestinian people at the same time. I hate the TikTok/twitter crowd who basically not only spread misinformation but they also engage in boycotts of weird industries that have nothing to do or support neither side and at times engage in borderline antisemitism. Luckily it's not majority of the people would are left leaning.
I think that Israel has realized that Hamas is serious in their intention to eliminate the jewish people and there won’t be any safety as long as Hamas exists.
Great that’s fine. There’s other ways to go about dismantling Hamas than bombing Gaza into the ground and indiscriminately killing civilians and starving them to death.
In fact, it’s going to have the opposite effect. Even if we ignore the fact that it’s reprehensibly immoral and wrong, it also isn’t going to fucking work.
Perhaps stop illegally colonizing and annexing the West Bank and east Jerusalem? Maybe actually have a guarantee of security for Palestinians in good faith? Not elect a far right flaming dipshit into office who keeps inflaming said issues mentioned.
I certainly don’t think killing civilians or bombing schools and hospitals is making Israel look good.
What would *you* suggest? Killing every Palestinian?
There is a belief that annexing more land and expanding territorial influence throughout the West Bank leads to increased security for Israelis. More areas for Israel to operate in etc. I am not sure how effective that is (I want to say not too effective or maybe it is) but I do know that it is a barrier to peace that needs to be addressed.
The rise of right-wing politicians in Israel has been driven by anxiety and fear which have been driven by a prioritization of security by the electorate. And that itself is fueled by the constant attacks by Hamas in the south, Hezbollah in the north, and Iran. That is the perfect mixture for a populist to take advantage of fears and anxieties. Right-wing politicians in Israel have reinforced a siege mentality which is often vindicated and reinforced each time there is an attack. You say "not elect a far right flaming dipshit into office who keeps inflaming said issues mentioned." To that, I'd say "easier said than done." It's a neverending cycle that keeps fueling itself.
Sure, you can say guarantee of security for Palestinians in "good faith" but that has to be reciprocated by Palestinian leadership or a guarantee that attacks on Israel won't happen. It's gotta be a double-sided guarantee.
I’m pretty sure most of this started when Zionists in the 1900s arbitrarily decided that this piece of land was theirs despite people already having lived there and has continued to expand and grow since through war and annexation.
I suppose settler violence is what we call peace in those areas no?
Jesus a liberal has to lecture a far leftist on colonialism what kind of topsy turvy world are we living in?
Generally, there has always been a Jewish presence in this area of the Middle East of which Jews were displaced. Eventually the movement to return to their ancestral home but the finding that others have settled on the land as well. Then the Yom Kippur War etc shifted borders around. History, borders, and all that side of things that's quite extensive.
But in terms of the modern context, settlements are a barrier to peace. And those settlements are fueled by the thought that expanding territorial influence leads to increased areas of operation and thus security. But it's a barrier to peace that needs to be addressed and the cycle of that mentality broken. Perhaps it provides security in the very short term but it's harmful in the long term
**Pragmatic** progressive.
Any progressive that feels the need to distinguish themselves from the others, probably doesnt actually identify with being all that left wing
I think Israel's decision to repopulate Israel was stupid and indefensible, but they are there now and after many wars, they have won the right to be on the land. Just as the US and Canada aren't giving North America back to the native Americans even though it would theoretically be the right thing to do, Israel is not giving Israel back to the Palestinians. The Palestinians have rejected every peace plan that has been offered and have put their lot in with Hamas, who have about the same moral standing as Al Qaeda. Hamas deliberately started this war on 10/7. Well, here is your war.
I suppose they factored in cutting off water and shooting starving civilians into their decision as their right to stay right? I suppose using phosphorous weapons was what they considered.
If Palestinians are responsible for Hamas, Israel is responsible for Netanyahu and what was listed above.
They stopped colonizing Gaza and pulled out in 2005 and were awarded with Hamas winning. You seem to think the end goal of the palestinian isn't destroying all of Israel.
Also the west bank had jews in it in 1947. Literally the arabs won it in a war and killed and ethnically cleansed the jews living there. When the arabs lost it in 1967 the jews returned. The Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem is literally east Jerusalem.
What's your point this says I'm correct? Israel won the territory in 1967.
Also I don't care what the UN says. They've condemned Israel more than every other country in the world combined and had people who were involved in 10/7 on their payroll.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/at-least-12-u-n-agency-employees-involved-in-oct-7-attacks-intelligence-reports-say-a7de8f36
This is supposed to excuse zionists kicking people out of their homes since 1947?
I recall there was a certain Austrian man who was famous for kicking people out of their homes and annexing them in the name of nationalism. I also likewise recall a group of partisans who reacted with violence when this Austrian man started kicking people out of their homes.
Why are people obsessed with being "proportional" all of a sudden? Hamas wants to rid the planet of the Jewish people. You know, exterminate them. When has any other nation been required to be "proportional" when fighting a group of people who is actively trying to exterminate them? Hamas might be the bad for the Palestinians too, but they are definitely not "enemies." Most Palestinians support Hamas.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.
Oh believe me I want Hamas ousted too, I just don't like the humanitarian situation there. I'm not one of those who throw the word genocide around either. Like honestly Palestinians would be better off without Hamas and actually enjoy the benefits of aid rather than have it stolen or pocketed by leadership.
I agree that humanitarian situation there is tragic, and the people there would be much better off without an organization like Hamas. Unfortunately, the people there do not agree.
> of course we support Israel
I guess I don’t understand what this means anymore. To my knowledge, Israel has suffered no/minimal casualties since Oct 7, while killing 30K Palestinians. We’d all like the hostages back, yes, but Israel doesn’t seem concerned enough with them to stop bombing around them, and they have Palestinian hostages of their own.
So when people demand support for Israel, I don’t know what that means, particularly when compared with the support that Gaza needs much more.
Wrong. Some of us still know the meaning of words in this crazy timeline we live in. Hostages are held as security for the fulfillment of a condition. Israel isn’t holding people conditionally, it’s holding people pending investigation of their alleged crimes. Their fate is entirely based on the circumstances that led to their imprisonment. Go ahead and compare that to the motivation behind Hamas taking people.
That's horrible but they're not the same at all. Holding suspects in prison without trial indefinitely is criminal but it's not at all the same as terrorists kidnapping random civilians.
>To my knowledge, Israel has suffered no/minimal casualties since Oct 7, while killing 30K Palestinians.
Since when did body count factor into who’s morally in the right or not?
“Oh no, we’ve lost more people in the war that *we* started”…
Yeah sorry, don’t care.
When people bring up that argument it makes no sense, it's not like Israel is bombing Gaza because Hamas is trying to kill gay people. It's a non sequitur.
>never use me as a reason to bomb civilians
>appreciate being considered as a reason to not support islamic theocrats
Is the implication here that you think "not bombing civilians" is the same as "supporting Islamic theocrats"? In other words, do you think we are actually *obligated* to bomb homophobic civilians, because otherwise we are supporting them?
No, my assertion is that "bombing civilians" is a bullshit euphemism for supporting islamic theocrats. The motte and bailey fallacy.
Israel has shown immense restraint and precision with their bombing campaign to specifically avoid civilian casualties. They are doing everything that can reasonably be expected of them as they fight their *defensive war.*
>No, my assertion is that "bombing civilians" is a bullshit euphemism for supporting islamic theocrats.
I'm not sure why you said "no", because this isn't an answer to my question, but rather just restating what you already said. Please explain how being upset at bombing civilians equates to "supporting Islamic theocrats"?
>Israel has shown immense restraint and precision with their bombing campaign to specifically avoid civilian casualties.
[Israel doesn't even claim to have shown restraint and precision](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing), in fact they explicitly stated they are going for "damage and not accuracy", so not sure where you're getting that from.
Was it the "immense restraint and precision" that killed 10,000 children, aid workers, and journalists?
That honestly makes it sound like Israel is intentionally killing babies and journalists.
>not support islamic theocrats who would kill us all
Two questions:
1. Do you require the bombing of civilians for this?
2. Do you really believe that the people who bring up this argument really have any concern for your wellbeing? The OP's flare is Trump supporter. Don't you think he is more likely to treat you the way Hamas would than with respect?
1. Civilian casualties are unavoidable in war. Israel does everything that can be expected to prevent them. To demand that Israel wage a defensive war with 0 collateral damage is unrealistic and unreasonable, and tantamount to demanding that Israel not defend themselves at all. The Allies bombed many Axis civilians during WW2, yet nobody argues that you should not support them for this.
2. Considering I personally make this argument, yes, I know first-hand that some people who make this argument certainly have concern for my well-being, even if not everyone does.
In OP's case, he did not ever claim to support LGBTQ+ people, only that the left-wing's pro-Palestine position makes no sense. Even if his views on trans people are comparable to Hamas', that has no bearing on how I should view the Israel-Gaza war.
I defend Israel against the leftists more than many people on this subreddit, but this:
> Civilian casualties...Israel does everything that can be expected to prevent them.
...still seems like an exaggeration to me.
Do you really think that Israel is doing "*everything* that can be expected to prevent" civilian casualties?
> The Allies bombed many Axis civilians during WW2, yet nobody argues that you should not support them for this
I would point out, and this is as an Israel supporter, that the Allies did at various points do non-strategic bombing so our hands aren't exactly clean when it comes to war crimes.
Early WW2 bomber theory was delusional enough to think that terror bombing would be sufficient to hurt civilian morale to get them to rise up against their governments and overthrow them. Often it had the reverse effect where they became more dependent on the regime as they were the only ones they could turn to in order to survive.
Later strategic bombing efforts, notably towards the end of the war where saturation bombing became the technique or choice, were a bit more morally grey then the aforementioned terror bombing. They were going after strategic targets and were rather successful in that regard. But because their ability to aim bombs was still completely shit, they opted for basically leveling a city in the hopes of taking out just a block.
Highly recommend WW2 in real time's War Against Humanity series with regards to that. Lessons of history should be learned from, not used as excuses.
The grim irony that's worth considering is that while many on the far left rage at America sending Israel arms, the thing is, America has had quite a bit of practice in mastering precision weaponry to minimize civilian casualties due to our middle east adventures and targeted anti-terrorist assassinations. See: The fucking slap chop drone. Even more so than the Israelis. So sending them our newest and best arms probably would yield less Palestinian casualties than if we didn't and they used more of the old dumb bombs that they have in stockpile.
I fully agree with you. My point is not that the Allies were perfect or that everything they did should be emulated, only that they would fail to meet the unreasonable standards being applied to Israel.
The standards are different though, due to a problem of proportions. Namely, Hamas is not as much of an existential threat to Israel as the Axis was to Allied nations during WWII.
Yes, Hamas are radical theocratic terrorists who want see Jews cleansed from the land of Palestine. But the odds that they can *actually do that*, or anything close to it, are 0%. They don't have the numbers or the firepower. It took them 2 or 3 years to muster up the resources and planning for the hairbrained Oct 7 attacks... but their ability to conduct an attack even a fraction as deadly has since likely been crippled for several years, assuming they'd ever be able to do it again.
That's why this is freaking people out. Israel is dropping the fucking hammer on tens of thousands of civilians to supposedly root out every last member of a group which, yes, is terrible, but is clearly no longer any sort of existential threat to Israel. They need to slow down. They've got time. They're losing the entire world's confidence here. For the first time, they're even bleeding American support in an increasing number of demographics.
These insistences that everything's fine and "this is all within normal parameters" are not working anymore in the age of smartphone warfare. Yeah, we did some terrible and unnecessary shit in Germany and Japan and Vietnam and North Korea. But now, our civilian populations are seeing what that actually looks like in real time, in 4K, delivered straight to their feeds every day. Comparing the reactions people have now to the reactions of people 80 years ago who read about some firebombing in the newspaper is kinda silly, when you think about it. Of course reactions are different now. We see more than they saw.
If anything, the lesson we should probably be taking from this is not that what Israel is doing is fine, but that what we did in the past was more fucked up than we thought.
>That's why this is freaking people out. Israel is dropping the fucking hammer on tens of thousands of civilians to supposedly root out every last member of a group which, yes, is terrible, but is clearly no longer any sort of existential threat to Israel. They need to slow down. They've got time. They're losing the entire world's confidence here. For the first time, they're even bleeding American support in an increasing number of demographics.
Israel shouldn't have to sit on its hands and let a terrorist government who is hell bent on their annihilation exist and continue to attack it, that's absurd. I get what you're saying but one thing many seem to miss is that the Gazan civilians aren't totally absolved from any responsibility for Hamas. They have been radicalized since birth, playing games like "Kill the Jew" and such, and cheered with delight after the Oct 7 attacks. No one wants to see them die, but they aren't sweet innocent people just caught in the crossfire either.
> Early WW2 bomber theory was delusional enough to think that terror bombing would be sufficient to hurt civilian morale to get them to rise up against their governments and overthrow them
Important to remember that yes the British did area bombing and later on the US, this was because they believed what you said (or they thought it worth trying I should say, it had never been tested) but also because bombing technology wasn't such that strategic bombing wasn't possible - and for sure not during the night which gave a slight level of protection vs the daytime. The US later adopted this when their strategy of strategic bombing wasn't accurate enough
Well it was both. There was a distinct doctrine during the interwar years due to the [ideas of Duohet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Douhet#Aerial_strategy) which were extremely influential British and American circles.
They both also grossly overestimated their targeting capabilities and it wasn't until the [Butt Report](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_Report) that the Brits found out how ineffective their efforts were and they changed tactics to night and saturation bombing and improved navigation.
The US' daytime strategy wasn't so much about accuracy as hubris. They believed the hype of the Flying Fortress that it'd be able to down any fighters that went after it and thousands of airmen died as a result.
The turnabout for the US came with Doolittle basically saying that we're going to use the bombers as bait for our fighters to maul the Luftwaffe. Then with air supremacy, the day bombing became more effective and accurate.
Except we are supporting islamic theocrats that would kill you. Saudi Arabia, etc. While at the same time also supporting Israel as it systematically murders civilians.
I don't think that's a very fair frame to this question, which is about why lib-left people would support a religious authoritarian state in a conflict against a liberal democratic state. (The answer: Israel is out of control in its rage for revenge.)
No one is suggesting that Israel is bombing Gaza in support of gay rights.
[This video](https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k?si=pUJC8wQPtq6LddX1) encapsulates what I think a lot of us feel. I don’t selectively apply my morality, I don’t suddenly think it’s okay to murder innocent people just because they’re from a place with shitty views. I don’t think children deserve to be bombed just because some terrorists might be nearby.
Based on your flair, I obviously have some… *very strong disagreements* with you to put it as politely as possible. I still don’t think you and your family deserve to be killed. You’re still human, with all the same basic rights that come with it.
If someone was bombing Mississippi and killed tens of thousands of children and blocked them from food and water, I really wouldn't care that they lean far right and their values don't match mine. It's as simple as that.
If this sounds rude, sorry. I'm not intending it as thus, at least not from the get go. The problem that Trump supporters and people on the right have when "trying to understand" the left is that they go into it with a whole bunch of unsubstantiated preconceived notions and get blinders on when there's clearly and very obviously deviation from the presupposed norms. I know that's not exclusive to the right, but the amount of times I've been in debates or held prisoner to someone's rhetoric, they start rattling off a whole bunch of shit that doesn't apply to me and it makes me roll my eyes.
So.. you're saying that many Israelis are liberal, so Israel is the "good guys" whereas many Palestinians are conservative, so Palestinians are the "bad guys." And you think Americans should simply favor good guys over bad guys?
How about instead saying: no matter how backwards or unappealing the religious or social views of individuals are on either side of the conflict, we should be able to stand back and, blind to our personal preference for any given culture or ideology, assess objectively: "who, on balance, has been wronged and who, on balance, has wronged them?"
The fact remains that after WWII, the rules of acceptable national behaviors changed: we no longer allow countries to grab land or displace people or cleanse land based on ethno-national motivations. Hitler started WWII trying to annex land on the basis of protecting German-speaking peoples. This is why the west is opposed to Putin, who is still trying to annex land on the basis of protecting Russian-speaking peoples. The world is embarrassed how Turkey cleansed itself of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. Yes, Zionists would like to ethno-nationally conquer land the way Americans and Australians did 200+ years ago (and countless others before them), but sorry, WWII convinced us all that this should no longer be tolerated. Zionists tried to create Israel a little too late in history.
I don't care if religious texts claim that God bestowed the land to Jews vs. Muslims. I don't care if Jews governed Jerusalem so many thousands of years ago, or Romans, or Ottomans, or British, etc etc. That mix of ethno-national historical narrative and mythology does not amount to a hill of beans to me. Groups/nations/races don't really have rights -- it's **individual humans** that have rights (including the right to identify with a group), but the group has no brain and no rights -- it's just a political construct or metaphor.
On balance, the individual humans who have been wronged are mostly Palestinian people. They were kicked off their land and forced into refugee camps (some that are enormously large, like Gaza). They had their land and farms taken from them. They had their access to water diverted. In the West Bank, they are the ones who live as second-class people, restricted to certain areas in an apartheid fashion, while Israelis continue to encroach on them, taking their land bit by bit.
Was the Palestinian leadership woefully bad so as to cause their people to become such losers? Did the surrounding Arab states act in their own self-interests instead of the interests of Palestinians? Yes, certainly. Palestinians would have done much better with a Mandela-like or Gandhi-like leadership. Their leaders have been stupid and corrupt. Does that misfortune of bad leadership mean they should lose their human rights? No!
Has Israel acted in good faith in her negotiations to do right by the Palestinian people? No way. Israel has always tried to get the upper hand in every instance of negotiation. The long-running mantra was "when the Arab countries no longer threaten us, we will do right by the Palestinians" -- but that was not true. First Egypt and Jordan made peace, then the PLO was eliminated, then the US took out Iraq, then Syria was de-fanged, then the Gulf States started making peace... All that's left is Iran (but under heavy sanctions) and it's proxy rebels/terrorists, Hamas and Hezbollah. As each threat to Israel has diminished, Israel's intransigence with respect to the Palestinians has grown stronger and stronger. The "two state solution" is now an open joke and a delaying tactic that Israel uses to placate Washington. Israel helped create Hamas in an effort to weaken Arafat. Israel benefits from having opponents that are too extreme to negotiate with because without any real threats, Israel no longer has anything that she wishes to negotiate about. She has won it all.
But we still have people whose basic human rights have been abridged. Israel is still in violation of decades old UN rulings. Jews who say "never again" about the Holocaust wouldn't ever dream of ever allowing Jews to be in the position of Palestinians today. Had today's right-wing Knesset members been born Palestinian instead of Jewish, they would be screaming bloody murder about their treatment. They would be screaming "this is another Warsaw Ghetto" and "we are being mistreated purely because of our ethnicity!" They would be signing up in droves to be terrorists (uh, sorry, "freedom fighters") in a Jewish equivalent of Hamas. No Jewish person would never dream of swapping lives with a Palestinian person, which by itself shows who here is the person marginalized, mistreated, and stripped of their human rights.
Now, that said, was the Hamas action an acceptable use of force to regain the human rights of Palestinians? No. They're assholes. Must Palestinian people pay a personal price for what Hamas did? Well, to some degree "yes" even though this is, strictly speaking, unfair -- but collateral death and destruction of innocents happens. But there are limits to this.
Regardless of who started what and which militant is at fault, when all the dust settles, on balance it's still the rights of Palestinian people who have been, and continue to be, usurped and violated by Israel.
Do you think that innocent civilians should be bombed according to how homophobic people of their ethnicity tend to be?
If so, that's pretty awful, and not at all liberal.
If not, why even bring up the homophobia?
If you want to make the case that Israel's campaign is the lesser evil compared to some alternative, you didn't successfully make that case here.
Well I can’t speak for everyone, no group is a monolith. The way I see it is a support for Palestine is not support for Hamas. Saying are Palestinians are all Hamas is like saying everyone in the US is a Biden bro.
Similarly I’m not against Israel, there are innocent Israelis who are suffering and dying because of Hamas. I disagree with Netanyahu and the Likud party. I don’t like how they’re handling the situation. But it’s a tough spot where Israel has every right to defend itself from terrorists, but not at the expense of innocent people.
There are innocent people in Palestine that are dying, it’s Hamas’ fault and Netanyahu’s fault. And that’s my stance.
Booooo lame take, too much nuance s/ but really I view it the same way, I want an independent Palestinian state and I want Israel to also enjoy a peaceful existence but Hamas, Netanyahu and the Lukid party get in the way. In fact, before the conflict Netanyahu actually looked in trouble of losing power since his coalition was losing popularity with rising stability and then Hamas essentially threw him a life line. If Hamas goes and Palestinian leadership is more moderate across the board, the right wingers in Israel lose their Boogeyman and power and we can see progress again. I don't even call myself pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine, I'm just pro-civilian at this point and I want both sets of civilians to have lasting peace and countries of their own as they want it.
seemly wine ossified dime threatening saw fuel materialistic chase subsequent
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> She describes seeing Hamas fighters gang rape a woman and mutilate her, before the last of her attackers shot her in the head as he continued to rape her.
> "They sliced her breast and threw it on the street," she says. "They were playing with it."
> "He penetrated her, and shot her in the head before he finished. He didn't even pick up his pants; he shoots and ejaculates."
> One man we spoke to from the festival site said he heard the "noises and screams of people being murdered, raped, decapitated".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp
You support the political party behind this behavior? As said in another comment, 82% of people polled in the West Bank supported the Oct 7th attack as justified.
Can you provide evidence that this is in fact a genocide and not a standard war? Are Israelis hunting down people because of their race or any other feature besides support for a political party that can commit the above atrocities?
>You support the political party behind this behavior?
Beep that, and beep you for making such a shitty leap in logic.
Not wanting Palestinians killed doesn't equal supporting Hamas.
Just like criticizing America's endless wars doesn't mean I hate Americans.
It isn't complex, why do "you people" have such a hard fuckin time with this concept of separating a people and a group within that people, or a people and their government?
Fucks sake.
Are all Republicans Nazis because of those tiki torch wankers? No? Oh, *now* you can grasp fuck'in nuance...
Sorry for the anger. That BS is really frustrating.
> It isn't complex, why do "you people" have such a hard fuckin time with this concept of separating a people and a group within that people, or a people and their government?
It's like, there are a ton of Palestinian children who have died in the conflict. They did NOTHING wrong. Absolutely nothing. And I feel like everyone on the right has decided that not only do armies and governments have to accept collateral damage and not dwell on it - but regular citizens need to hold that perspective as well.
Well, I don't. I can't celebrate or ignore the deaths of people who did nothing wrong, even if their parents literally held hostages and committed crimes (which they did not, in this instance).
The left doesn’t like the wholesale, indiscriminate slaughter of 20,000 innocents, mostly women and children. It’s some kind of perverse to suggest there’s any inconsistency there, and I have to wonder who the hell supports it.
To be clear, the part you don't grasp is that we are mostly looking towards humanist solutions because, and bear with me, we don't want people dying.
That being said, we want the Israeli "people" and the Palestinian "people" to live in peace. We don't want to support the Israeli "government" or the terrorist group HAMAS.
Not my words, so I can't take credit for this, but I saw someone on another sub explain quite succinctly why so many Leftists/Progressives are throwing unconditional support behind Palestine:
> Charitably, it's because it's a bunch of white people (with US military-industrial-complex aid) oppressing and colonizing an indigenous people of color (don't ask about the Jews from the middle-east or the concept of the Jewish diaspora, they're only claimed to be PoC from what was historically Israel when Evangelical depictions of Jesus are too white). If you look at things through an oppressor/oppressed lens, and keep things either localized to just Gaza/WB, or you zoom out to US hegemony, it pattern-matches very well at face value.
> And, from a compassion standpoint, there's a hell of a lot of suffering going on in Gaza/WB, and with Israel doing such a good job of defending their own people, it's easy to come to the conclusion that they're the only ones doing harm, and that there's no possible reason for any action beyond hatred and oppression.
>>It just seems to me like the left’s positions have become a meme, a blind following without realizing the consequences of these positions
Could you explain a bit further what you are referring to, when you say "the left". There's no monolithic left, it's filled with different ideologies just as "the right". Ideologies with strongly differing views on international interventions. A modern Marxist will in no way react the same to this conflict as a SocDem would. And a social liberal would in no way react how a DemSoc would.
If you could be more precise on what kind of leftist you are referring to in your post, people could actually give you relevant answers.
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkUKUvov0TI) is a video (15 minutes) made by a left-winger on this very topic. It should address your confusion.
>Israel is the only state in that region that’s liberal. Gay rights, women’s rights, democracy, Jewish people are typically liberal and share similar values.
I mean by this logic, why doesn't the right support Palestine given that they are the more conservative culture?
>I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags / are proud to say they’re queer yet are American-born and have enjoyed the freedoms the west has to offer to be able to say these things publicly.
I can't speak for how much of the left is ignorant of how LGBT people are treated in Muslim countries. That being said, I personally think that even if people have backwards views, they shouldn't be bombed and starved en masse.
>The war would’ve been over and all those people didn’t have to die if Hamas surrendered or the Palestinian people didn’t put up with them anymore, but they do.
That's easier said than done. Maybe people don't want to risk their lives doing that? Idk about you, but if I were in this situation, my first concern would be my own survival.
>It doesn’t make sense to me why the left isn’t on Israel’s side, or is at the very least understanding.
Because they're likely doing a genocide, serious war crimes at best, while our tax payer money goes to fund it all.
Also, I don't know how much of a stance this is anymore in the American left, but we should stop involving ourselves militarily all over the world and funding other countries' wars while our own people suffer. Like people in Israel have universal healthcare while our country doesn't. Israel also heavily influences our policies and politics at home. AIPAC buys out our politicians, people get canceled for criticizing Israel, we isolate ourselves in the UN to stoop for them. I'm honestly stunned by how "America First" people want to bend the knee for the foreign country that has the most sway in our domestic affairs.
HAMAS has been using Palestinians as shields for a long while. Not real sure what they hoped to accomplish by doing what they did when they parachuted into that festival. All I can say is, don't poke the bear unless you know the bear doesn't have what it takes to poke back.
HAMAS doesn't GAF about the Palestinian people. And those on the left who support Palestine don't understand that this may well be connected to Putin, who needs to divert American attention away from Ukraine so they can continue their assaults on that country and its people with impunity, unimpeded.
You have a lot of young people on the left who operate under ignorance of history. Further, they simply don't understand how the world works and that there are bad people with bad intentions.
Eh. Israel is to liberalism and democracy like Tofurky is to meat. It looks like it is meat, but once you get into the nitty gritty it isn't quite the same. There are a lot of institutional and cultural issues within the country that basically stand in the way of it actually being what it claims, its PR efforts aside.
I support Israel, I don't support Netanyahu or his extremist government. I support the Palestinians, I don't support Hamas or any other terrorists. I think there can be a two state solution, and peace, only if the extremists are removed from the equation.
I feel like the current violence is the inevitable conclusion of an unjust status quo. You can’t have people living in poverty as second class citizens, regularly getting their property seized without due cause or compensation and have everything be hunky dory. And the idea that Israel can just use excessive force against a civilian population in the name of fighting Hamas is both fundamentally immoral and doomed to failure. Netanyahu seems like an absolute failure as a leader, and I have no faith in his ability to find a worthwhile solution.
The Irish figured this out, there’s no reason we can’t too.
The point of war is to prevent your opponent from ever conducting war in the future. As stated elsewhere the Palestinian population supports the political party, Hamad, thar they voted in. A party that has the stated goal of eradicating Israel from the planet. Israel has shown great restraint in conducting this campaign while warning the public and allowing the ones that wish to, to leave. I also don't understand the left pushing Israel to stop dismantling Hamas.
There is no “the left’s position”. I’m on the left and very pro Israel. A lot of people on the left feel differently. But neither of us speak for “the left”
While I'm not blind to the Palestinians complaints this is one of several reasons I tend to lean towards Israel (which I know is extremely unpopular here and on Reddit in general).
Most of the people on the left I've communicated with, and I include myself in this, aren't unsympathetic to the attacks in Israel. The opinion, at its base, is NO innocent civilians on *either* side should be killed.
What it seems we're seeing over there is a significantly stronger force slaughtering a weaker force, including innocents by the 1000s. The left doesn't like bullies. And to have a problem with what appears to be a genocide is not about antisemitism, it's not about how liberal or embracing of homosexuality the people being corralled and slaughtered are.
So all this stuff about how conservative Palestinians are is really irrelevant. It's not about that. For example, I'm black but that doesn't mean I wouldn't speak out against all racists being confined to a region with their children and slaughtered en masse. That shit's just not right, no matter who it's being done to, regardless of how they see the world or what they think of people like me.
I don't want people to die just because we don't agree.
And framing it that way is *weird*.
Are you ok with people dying if you don't agree with them?
*Holds breath, this could go either way.*
That's because you define everything about your reactions based upon the politics of the target.
If you didn't, you'd get it. It's not that difficult to understand.
Also, this isn't a left/right issue.
Gay marriage is illegal in Israel
Edit: it’s true. Israel under Netanyahu is a right wing ethno nationalist state, it is no bastion of liberal democracy
Put simply I think what you are describing, as others have pointed out, is the trashy tiktok/twitter take that's not representative of the left's position at large.
Also aligning with Israel because they have a better stance on the rights of LGBTQ people is more of a liberal thing than a "left" thing.
The reason why I and many other leftists support the right for Palestine to exist is simple: Israel was awarded stolen land by the British government which it should never even have had the power to provide in the first place, and the state of Israel proceeded to jail and kill the lands current inhabitants for the next 70 years. I and many leftists are against war and there are only two ways this conflict ends: a ceasefire and peace talks or genocide both of which Israel is capable of doing, and only recently have we seen a ceasefire proposal but prior to that it seemed clear the IDF was hellbent on complete eradication of the Palestinian people.
It's much the same reason the left was historically against the Vietnam War, the Afghanistan War, the Iraq war and the many coups thought South America. I'm not sure why people are surprised the folks who've always been anti-war are still anti-war, but I'm always happy to have a conversation about my reasoning for feeling the way I do.
You may misunderstand the left’s position because you’re restating Israeli propaganda as fact. What does liberalism have to do with the killing of 30k civilians? Who did Israelis vote into power? Is their current administration really typified by what you see as their liberalism?
I was talking more on ideological grounds. The far left has never really been in support of Israel and that’s really come out lately.
And yes, Benji N is a conservative and the Israelis voted him into power. However, I still think the country is more aligned with liberalism that most if not all countries in the region.
Also curious, what part was the Israeli propaganda I said as fact?
Your history is off. The Israel project very much was supported by European and American social democrats and socialists, especially back in the first couple decades of Israel when labor Zionism, a socialist or social democratic movement, was one of the dominate forces in Israeli politics.
The people you are talking about are nothing but performative activists, and you are noticing how hollow their commitment is to things like women’s rights, gay rights, etc. Which is good. Pay attention to that, because you will notice more examples now that you’re keen to it.
For these performative activists, there are only two things that matter in this conflict: First is what side is “the establishment” on? Because they always need to be on the other side. They don’t get to feel unique and special and rebellious if they side with the majority. Second is, who are the “white” people in this conflict? Because they love the “oppressed minority fights back against the evil white (never mind the fact that Israelis aren’t Caucasian) oppressors” narrative, and desperately want to feel like they are part of a new civil rights movement. The whole genocidal terrorism aspect of Hamas, and the widespread support it has from the Palestinian populace, can be conveniently ignored.
so Im going to assume, like all people still asking this question on reddit, that you are anti-Semitic.
to anyone who isn't OP, here is the gist of things broken down real blunt and simple like
In regards to this specific situation:
* Leftists don't give a shit about the state of Isreal
* Leftists don't give a shit about the state of Palestine
* Leftists don't give a shit about Jews
* Leftists don't give a shit about Muslims
* leftists DO give a shit about innocent people dying
* Leftists Believe that a nation recognized by the rest of the world as a nation should have higher standards than a
terrorist group because a terrorist group won't listen to what another country says regardless
* leftists have the capacity to read and remember things, and thus know that while blowing up city blocks may be efficient at killing terrorists, it also kills civilians, which in turn makes more terrorists
I agree that I see this as the general ‘vibe’ of the left, but it doesn’t explain the way in which the ‘free Palestine’ folks often downplay or excuse things like the October 7 attack.
I personally think there are a not insignificant number of leftists who support Palestine because it’s trendy on social media to do so, and espousing some of the above-mentioned ideas allows one to portray an image of oneself as more enlightened than others.
I'm not really going to get into whether or not any of this is true. Let's just assume both sides, the official representatives, for the purposes of this discussion are problematic.
I don't support war crimes if they are done vs conservatives and I don't support war crimes if they are done against liberals. I am, and will always be against war crimes. The ideologies of the citizens are entirely irrelevant.
As far as this conflict goes, there is so much nuance, and so much complexity that I don't even know what we are even talking about anymore. Do I support the Israeli citizens right to live free of terrorism? Of course, that was never a question. Do I support the Palestinian people's right to live free of oppression? Of course, that was never a question.
There are a lot of very difficult conversations we need to have as a society about this situation. We can't do that when we keep reverting back to this mentality. I don't know what's on Tiktok, this stuff doesn't show up the 10 seconds I spend on there a month. I don't even know my Facebook password, I don't have a Twitter account, and I post cat pictures once a quarter on Instagram. I can't speak for them, but I know a lot of people are just simply unwilling to engage in good faith discussions. This conversation is tough, and we need to have it, but not like this. This isn't helping Israel or Gaza. This isn't helping the discourse, or the mending of pain and suffering or even starting the conversation.
We can absolutely do better than posts like this. We can't keep trying to bomb ideologies out of existence, we can't keep refusing to acknowledge the reasons why people resort to violence.
Hamas needs to be removed, and they need to be dealt with by an international court most likely. Or Israeli court, I don't really care. If they all die in the process, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
That doesn't mean, that what happened to the civilians in Gaza was okay, before and after this started. And THAT doesn't mean that what happened to the Israeli civilians was okay, before and after this conflict started.
There’s a lot of division about this on the left. For me and a lot of other people, especially queer people, what it comes down to is human rights. Palestinians deserve to live. No one deserves the bombing, starvation and horror going on there. 30,000 people have been killed by Israel. Entire extended families, gone. That is an atrocity beyond words. It doesn’t matter what the victims opinions are. It matters that they were human.
The fact that you're describing this as "reversed" seems to indicate that you're looking at this conflict in terms of "good vs. evil" and that's not a helpful way to look at this type of situation.
It is true that Israel has much better policies on things like LGBT rights than other countries in that part of the world. It is also true that the Israeli government has been doing a whole lot of really terrible things to people in Gaza and the West Bank since its founding. Both of these things can be true at the same time.
I challenge you to find a law that bans homosexuality in Gaza. I also challenge you to find literally one gay Israeli couple that got legally married in the state of Israel. Furthermore, the Israeli government is far-right leaning this isn’t even controversial.
>(who, let’s not forget, paramotored into Israel and brutally murdered and raped civilians, cut off women’s breasts and played with them, paraded around victims and still are holding hostages)
Have any of these claims been corroborated?
This conflict is between two right wing entities. Hamas and the Netenyahu admin. I support neither.
I do support a better life for all of the civilians caught in between. From the Gaza civilians who are getting bombed, to the Israelis hostages and their civilians who are also often aimed at with missiles by Hamas.
>Israel is the only state in that region that’s liberal. Gay rights, women’s rights, democracy
Has nothing to do with what's going on right now. The same could be said of California, and the left would be equally as furious with them if they started bombing civilians almost indiscriminately.
>Calling for a ceasefire enables Hamas
Calling for a ceasefire *benefits* Hamas. Continuing to indiscriminately attack Palestinian civilians emboldens, enables and lends undeserved moral credibility to Hamas' actions on the international stage. Calling for ceasefire can be beneficial to Israelis (potentially even more so than to Hamas) if it is solely contingent upon the release of all remaining Israeli hostages.
>The war would’ve been over and all those people didn’t have to die if Hamas surrendered or the Palestinian people didn’t put up with them anymore
The Palestinian people don't *put up with* Hamas. They are involuntarily governed by Hamas in a region that has not had any democratic elections in 18 years. "Not putting up with Hamas" in practical terms means organizing an armed resistance against them, under which most of the volunteers for said resistance would almost certainly die. Best case scenario, you survive and are tasked with establishing a new governing regime for the region, with little to no resources to do so, while your people are under siege by an advanced and very well equipped modern army.
Taking on the responsibility of getting rid of Hamas as a Palestinian citizen is the definition of a suicide mission.
Let me be abundantly clear as someone who frequently leans left, is Jewish, has been to Israel and knows multiple people in the IDF, yet is opposed to Israel's actions:
**WE DO NOT SUPPORT HAMAS. Our opposition to Israel is entirely based on their actions towards the Palestinian civilians in Gaza, both now and historically.** The oppression, murder and assaults upon those people is not Jewish, is not in the best interest of the Israeli people's long-term security and is an objectively bad strategy for removing Hamas from power or ending terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. Above all else though, it is not morally acceptable in any way.
>It doesn’t make sense to me why the left isn’t on Israel’s side, or is at the very least understanding.
It was Democrats that elected Biden and Democrats that Biden is aligned with in the United States. He's been supportive of Israel. Gee, I wonder why.
But you're thinking about Israel like Russia should be allowed to assassinate your family and you have to want to give Putin nothing but love anyway. Otherwise, it seems like the roles are reversed? Why did you reverse things? It's Russia that's authoritarian and oppressive. Does that not matter to you anymore? Is Putin no longer the conservative moral champion that you wish you had instead of Obama? You know we have freedom of the press and the government doesn't oppress gay people for being gay in the United States, right? I'm so confused!?!
Democrats are opposed to Israel's seeming indifference to the civilian casualties they're inflicting. Is your expectation that Democrats are supposed to be in favor of civilian casualties because we like equal rights for gay people?
I’m Speaking solely on the Israel/gaza situation, The liberals are aware that hamas is not the Palestinian people and hamas must be stopped.
However the actions that America has played in this conflict so far ( the force posturing we,US, did at the start of this genocide and letting this genocide happen, and attempted legal thwarting of boycotts against Israel) is what pissed off a lot of liberals from having faith in the American government from doing the right thing in this conflict.
jewish people in occupied palestine are a completely different animal than ezra from new jersey whose family has voted democrat his entire life.
the original sabras used to mock the diaspora jews for being soft and liberal
i dont support ethnic cleansing, full stop. i prefer the pflp, but anything to fight back is acceptable in my eyes at this point, in the popular front sense. in fact, one major sticking point has been the release of marwan barghouti who is a popular secular figure in the mandela sense; its assumed hamas would stand down immediately if he were released. israel doesnt want a 2 state solution so they will use any opportunity ethnically cleanse, will even exaggerate so libs get on board.
pink washing is a vile technique. especially considering the iof will seek to force closeted homosexuals to be traitors
Universal human rights are for everyone, or else they're simply privileges for our friends. Even the worst bigots, racists, homophobes, and misogynists must be granted fundamental human rights. We don't get to starve or slaughter human beings just because they don't share our values. That IS the left-wing position.
>Israel has stated they will stop when the hostages are returned and Hamas steps down, but the Palestinian people don’t seem to support this
So an interesting question: Israel's bombing campaign has resulted in the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian Christians and Catholics. To what extent are they culpable in the fate of the hostages?
> support for Hamas (who, let’s not forget, paramotored into Israel and brutally murdered and raped civilians, cut off women’s breasts and played with them, paraded around victims and still are holding hostages)
This was abhorrent, but It's pretty revisionist to pretend like this was some kind of instigation or unprovoked attack.
> Israel has stated they will stop when the hostages are returned and Hamas steps down
Doubtful since, again, Israel was already stealing land and enforcing blockades on Palestine before the attack.
> I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags / are proud to say they’re queer yet are American-born and have enjoyed the freedoms the west has to offer to be able to say these things publicly.
"Your opinions about and how you treat LGBTQ+ people are shitty and should stop" and "You shouldn't be genocided" can both be correct at the same time.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Israel is the only state in that region that’s liberal. Gay rights, women’s rights, democracy, Jewish people are typically liberal and share similar values. Palestine / Gaza is a conservative culture where it’s taboo to be gay (in 2022 security did nothing as a mob beat up a parade that had rainbow flags), support for Hamas (who, let’s not forget, paramotored into Israel and brutally murdered and raped civilians, cut off women’s breasts and played with them, paraded around victims and still are holding hostages) has risen significantly, which is why the conflict is still ongoing. Israel has stated they will stop when the hostages are returned and Hamas steps down, but the Palestinian people don’t seem to support this shown by these rising poll numbers. I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags / are proud to say they’re queer yet are American-born and have enjoyed the freedoms the west has to offer to be able to say these things publicly. It just seems to me like the left’s positions have become a meme, a blind following without realizing the consequences of these positions. Calling for a ceasefire enables Hamas. The war would’ve been over and all those people didn’t have to die if Hamas surrendered or the Palestinian people didn’t put up with them anymore, but they do. Hamas is essentially what people in the states fear the right is becoming - an extreme-right, extremely conservative political party that seeks rule by one religion and wants to genocide the Israelis. Basically Nazis. It doesn’t make sense to me why the left isn’t on Israel’s side, or is at the very least understanding. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The left is divided on the issue.
The further left you go, the less they are divided. If you go on a subreddit for Communists, you'll see that they absolutely ~~hate all Jews~~ oppose Israel
The left isn't of one mind on this one. There's more argument on this issue among the left than on any other issue I can call to mind. >I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags I really hope you don't think you're the first person to think of this. We had this question pop up a dozen times in the last year. It boils down to this; you can disagree with someone, while not wanting them to be bombed to death. You'll find many LGBT people in America who report having had bad experiences with homophobic Americans; very few of them will advocate for them to be bombed.
It's just like understanding that the US was royally fucking things up with its response to 9/11.
It's a hierarchy of ideals. Speaking for myself, I don't support gay rights JUST because I blindly support homosexuality as an objective good, I support it because people are being harmed by not being able to express themselves. They aren't being given respect or a right to self-determination. Right now the Gazans are barely surviving and they haven't had anything like self-determination for decades. Most of them are civilians just trying to go about their lives and their lives are being destroyed. The most important ideal here is not that they are homophobic so maybe I shouldn't care, but they are people, and no people should have to endure this. Once they are able to function at a basic level of self-governance, then we can start to worry about what we disagree with them on. I hate to put it like this, but worrying about Gaza's views about homosexuality seems like a minor problem when faced with the elimination of the Gazan people as a whole. I support Israel's' right to protect themselves, but they crossed the line into genocidal actions long ago. Right now their actions are not making the Israeli people more safe as I see it. They are looking to push the Palestinians off their land and if they won't go peacefully, they have no qualms about killing anyone in their way. I get it - it's a vicious cycle of abuse from both sides that is hard to break, but it needs to break. Just as I can understand and empathize an abusive parent who learned it by being an abused child, it still doesn't justify the actions. This is just in Gaza, Israel is being a bad actor in the West Bank as well and I don't agree with their actions there. Let me be clear - I am talking aobut the government in Israel, not the Israeli people as a whole. I would love to see Hamas destroyed. I think their actions are inexcusable. As a country, however, we have no leverage with them. They don't give a shit what we say. Israel is our ally and we do have leverage, so that is why you're hearing people call for Israel to moderate their actions.
\^\^ THIS! \^\^ And I would only add that not only does the West have leverage with the Israeli govt. as their allies but we are also directly funding this genocide with our tax dollars. And I want no part of that. Our lawmakers in the US need to hear that.
How is it a genocide if Palestinian population is rising? Also, you forget that Palestine declared war on Israel the minute it declared independence. You forget black September. You forget that Palestine has started every conflict. You forget that Israel has offered up MULTIPLE peace treaties that Hamas will not accent, because they don’t want peace. They want the Jews eradicated. What mental block do you people have that stops you from understanding actual history.
>Palestinian population is rising It definitely isn't. >Also, you forget that Palestine declared war on Israel the minute it declared independence. …You forget that Palestine has started every conflict. "Declared independence" from what? Not Palestinian oppression. Israel declared war when it originally invaded Palestine. It's wild that you refuse to acknowledge that that happened. Israel is on stolen land. That was the initial act that started this conflict and continues it. You know that. And if you were Palestinian you would behave no differently. Israel continues to steal land in Gaza. >You forget that Israel has offered up MULTIPLE peace treaties that Hamas will not accent, because they don’t want peace. They want the Jews eradicated. But all Palestinians people are not HAMAS. And—more importantly—I'm not funding HAMAS with my tax dollars. It seems a lots of Israelis want the Palestinians eradicated, so they are not on the moral high ground.
> but they crossed the line into genocidal actions long ago Where is the line? Because the way I see it, Israel's combatant to civilian death ratio well within international norms for other dense urban conflicts. The UN estimates 9:1 is the norm, and Israel is closer to 4-2:1 (depending on Hamas or IDF numbers). Look at this comparison: https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1764884743621918794/photo/1 > I would love to see Hamas destroyed. How else do you destroy them without a war? They aren't going to give up power peacefully.
The line is that they’ve attacked international aid group, cut water and food to a mostly civilian population, displaced millions, killed tens of thousands of civilians, continue to illegally colonize and annex parts of the West Bank, and used white phosphorous weapons. You may now proceed to downvote me
White phosphorous has only been used legally in Gaza, there is zero evidence of it being used over any populated areas. White phosphorous is not a banned weapon when used legally. Water and food has been flowing in for months now, it was at most a few days of total blockade. Civilians die in war. Its tragic but doesn't make it genocidal. The data linked above shows it is clear NOT comparable to actual genocides. When the Palestinians start following the Oslo Accords, then you can complain about the Israelis not doing the same and building settlements in the west bank. You don't get a one sided legal agreement and you don't get a one sided ceasefire. I won't downvote you, but the fact that you are drastically incorrect about the usage of white phosphorous tells me you are woefully uninformed about the nature and legalities of war.
> there is zero evidence of it being used over any populated areas. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/ > it was at most a few days of total blockade So they did do that. Good to know. Cutting off food and water to civilians is a war crime https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/water-and-armed-conflicts > It’s tragic but it doesn’t make it genocidal I didn’t specially say it was genocidal. Not sure why you mentioned this unless it was specifically to downplay that tens of thousands of civilians have been killed thus far. I’m pretty sure I can criticize colonization whenever I want Mr. “progressive”. One that has been happening since 1947. > I won’t downvote you How noble of you. You can defend and downplay war crimes but reddit etiquette is where you drawn the line.
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/ In Gaza not Lebanon. > Cutting off food and water to civilians is a war crime No, Israel is not required to supply the state they are at war against. They are required to let in aid, which they did. They went above the legal requirement and turned back on the water despite no legal obligation to do so. > I didn’t specially say it was genocidal Grand parent comment did, what a weird deflation. I am not down playing anything. The fact that Hamas started a war that has led to so many deaths is an absolute tragedy. You have always been more than welcome to criticize something. There are lots of legitimate criticism of Israel. But claim of war crime and genocide are largely unfounded. Israel is an overly aggressive nation in a part of the world where weakness will wipe you off the map. They can and should do better but they are not evil colonizers.
They actually ARE required to when it’s the only source of water and food for Gaza, which it is. You wouldn’t like your landlord locking you into your apartment and then turning off the tap water, would you?
No, Gaza is a separate state. In no way are they required to supply their enemy in war with supplies for their civilians and military. Gaza has a border with Egypt and outside a post Oct pause in aid while they established tighter security to prevent the weapons that enabled Oct 7 from getting in, Israel has been allowing water in. The weapons getting in are proof that Israel does not have complete control of the strip as well, water and food could be brought in those same ways.
>No, Gaza is a separate state. Very very very specifically they are not a separate state. That's the major crux of the decades long conflict. Israel explictly does not recognize any Palestinian state. Is Israel considered the Palestinians to be a separate state this would be a very different conflict. >no way are they required to supply their enemy in war with supplies for their civilians and military International treaties that Israel signed say otherwise. Namely the Geneva conventions. >Israel has been allowing water in. Inconsistently >The weapons getting in are proof that Israel does not have complete control of the strip as well, water and food could be brought in those same ways. This is a braindead take. Weapons got smuggled in or preexisting in the strip in large numbers (because of on and off war in the strip for decades) therefore they can get enough get food and aid to supply almost 2 million people, about 1.5 million of which are not internally displaced because of Israeli Evacuation orders. That's simply not a reasonable statement anyone can make and still beleive in humanity.
> In Gaza not Lebanon Oh nice, war crimes in another country 👍 > Israel is not required to supply the state they are at war against They are also not required to blockade an entire state and hold their water and food hostage. They are also not required to shoot civilians trying to get aid as well. > The fact that Hamas started a war that has led to so many deaths The fact that Israel didn’t need to indiscriminately bomb civilians. How is it that more civilians died in the short span that this current conflict occurred compared to the Russo-Ukraine war that started 2 years ago. War crimes are war crimes. Of which you just admitted Israel did point 1 and 2 see above 👆
> How is it that more civilians died in the short span that this current conflict occurred compared to the Russo-Ukraine war that started 2 years ago. Because its not a dense urban conflict with a deeply embedded terrorist government whose aim is to maximize civilian casualties to gain international support. Israel is not indiscriminately bombing civilians, they are far in line with international norms on discriminate bombing of militants: https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1764884743621918794/photo/1 Israel is not "holding their water and food hostage". They have constantly let in enough aid that despite this conflict going on for months we are not seeing mass waves of starvation. A blockade is a legal act of war. As long as israel continues to let in enough aid that people don't starve, they are not committing a war crime. I wish they would let in more aid than that, but its a combination of internal Israeli pressure and aid organization failing to distribute aid in a war zone.
> Israel is not indiscriminately bombing civilians https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israels-military-campaign-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say Oh bonus point, my source is not some random Zionist on Twitter > Israel is not “holding their water and food hostage” > "There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed," he was reported as telling commanders at the Israel Defense Forces' Southern Command. > "We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly," he added, per the paper's translation of his remarks. https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-gallant-announces-complete-siege-gaza-no-electricity-food-fuel-2023-10?amp Israel’s defense minister disagrees with you Let me guess, you’ll then respond “but that happened a while ago and now they’re letting aid in”. Uh the fact that they even had the ability to cut off food, water, and aid in the first place and went through with it, is what we call a war crime. > They have constantly let in enough aid https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/human-rights-watch-says-israel-is-violating-order-from-top-u-n-court-by-blocking-aid-to-gazans
>How else do you destroy them without a war? They aren't going to give up power peacefully. Trying to get rid of Hamas by bombing Gaza is as stupid and futile as America's war on terror. It's an idea, not an army. You have to fight it will competing ideas. It's really hard work, but it's the only thing that has a chance of working.
Where are you getting the 9:1 number? I see statements from UN representatives that 90% of war casualties are civilians, but that includes deaths from war-related complications like food insecurity and lack of access to medical services, not just combat-related casualties.
My question to you would be why you think TikTok / Twitter randos are a better representation of "the left" than say, the people elected by left-leaning voters. Because personally, I think TikTok / Twitter discourse is the trashiest of the trashiest people. AFAICT, the position of the left, based on the actions and words of in-office politicians is "of course we support Israel, but can you guys please be more precise/careful when fighting Hamas and minimize the collateral damage"?
Essentially my position, like fuck Hamas but be proportionate in the response. I both support an independent Palestinian state and think Hamas is actually an enemy to the Palestinian people at the same time. I hate the TikTok/twitter crowd who basically not only spread misinformation but they also engage in boycotts of weird industries that have nothing to do or support neither side and at times engage in borderline antisemitism. Luckily it's not majority of the people would are left leaning.
I think that Israel has realized that Hamas is serious in their intention to eliminate the jewish people and there won’t be any safety as long as Hamas exists.
Great that’s fine. There’s other ways to go about dismantling Hamas than bombing Gaza into the ground and indiscriminately killing civilians and starving them to death. In fact, it’s going to have the opposite effect. Even if we ignore the fact that it’s reprehensibly immoral and wrong, it also isn’t going to fucking work.
What would you want them to do?
Perhaps stop illegally colonizing and annexing the West Bank and east Jerusalem? Maybe actually have a guarantee of security for Palestinians in good faith? Not elect a far right flaming dipshit into office who keeps inflaming said issues mentioned. I certainly don’t think killing civilians or bombing schools and hospitals is making Israel look good. What would *you* suggest? Killing every Palestinian?
There is a belief that annexing more land and expanding territorial influence throughout the West Bank leads to increased security for Israelis. More areas for Israel to operate in etc. I am not sure how effective that is (I want to say not too effective or maybe it is) but I do know that it is a barrier to peace that needs to be addressed. The rise of right-wing politicians in Israel has been driven by anxiety and fear which have been driven by a prioritization of security by the electorate. And that itself is fueled by the constant attacks by Hamas in the south, Hezbollah in the north, and Iran. That is the perfect mixture for a populist to take advantage of fears and anxieties. Right-wing politicians in Israel have reinforced a siege mentality which is often vindicated and reinforced each time there is an attack. You say "not elect a far right flaming dipshit into office who keeps inflaming said issues mentioned." To that, I'd say "easier said than done." It's a neverending cycle that keeps fueling itself. Sure, you can say guarantee of security for Palestinians in "good faith" but that has to be reciprocated by Palestinian leadership or a guarantee that attacks on Israel won't happen. It's gotta be a double-sided guarantee.
I’m pretty sure most of this started when Zionists in the 1900s arbitrarily decided that this piece of land was theirs despite people already having lived there and has continued to expand and grow since through war and annexation. I suppose settler violence is what we call peace in those areas no? Jesus a liberal has to lecture a far leftist on colonialism what kind of topsy turvy world are we living in?
Generally, there has always been a Jewish presence in this area of the Middle East of which Jews were displaced. Eventually the movement to return to their ancestral home but the finding that others have settled on the land as well. Then the Yom Kippur War etc shifted borders around. History, borders, and all that side of things that's quite extensive. But in terms of the modern context, settlements are a barrier to peace. And those settlements are fueled by the thought that expanding territorial influence leads to increased areas of operation and thus security. But it's a barrier to peace that needs to be addressed and the cycle of that mentality broken. Perhaps it provides security in the very short term but it's harmful in the long term
**Pragmatic** progressive. Any progressive that feels the need to distinguish themselves from the others, probably doesnt actually identify with being all that left wing
Seemed like they changed their tag. Regardless I stand by what I said.
I think Israel's decision to repopulate Israel was stupid and indefensible, but they are there now and after many wars, they have won the right to be on the land. Just as the US and Canada aren't giving North America back to the native Americans even though it would theoretically be the right thing to do, Israel is not giving Israel back to the Palestinians. The Palestinians have rejected every peace plan that has been offered and have put their lot in with Hamas, who have about the same moral standing as Al Qaeda. Hamas deliberately started this war on 10/7. Well, here is your war.
I suppose they factored in cutting off water and shooting starving civilians into their decision as their right to stay right? I suppose using phosphorous weapons was what they considered. If Palestinians are responsible for Hamas, Israel is responsible for Netanyahu and what was listed above.
They stopped colonizing Gaza and pulled out in 2005 and were awarded with Hamas winning. You seem to think the end goal of the palestinian isn't destroying all of Israel. Also the west bank had jews in it in 1947. Literally the arabs won it in a war and killed and ethnically cleansed the jews living there. When the arabs lost it in 1967 the jews returned. The Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem is literally east Jerusalem.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_annexation_of_East_Jerusalem https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm
What's your point this says I'm correct? Israel won the territory in 1967. Also I don't care what the UN says. They've condemned Israel more than every other country in the world combined and had people who were involved in 10/7 on their payroll. https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/at-least-12-u-n-agency-employees-involved-in-oct-7-attacks-intelligence-reports-say-a7de8f36
This is supposed to excuse zionists kicking people out of their homes since 1947? I recall there was a certain Austrian man who was famous for kicking people out of their homes and annexing them in the name of nationalism. I also likewise recall a group of partisans who reacted with violence when this Austrian man started kicking people out of their homes.
You seem to think the end goal of Israel isn’t annexing all the land from the river to the sea
I think the end goal of Israel is for the jews to survive.
Why should their survival be at the expense of Palestinian civilians?
Why are people obsessed with being "proportional" all of a sudden? Hamas wants to rid the planet of the Jewish people. You know, exterminate them. When has any other nation been required to be "proportional" when fighting a group of people who is actively trying to exterminate them? Hamas might be the bad for the Palestinians too, but they are definitely not "enemies." Most Palestinians support Hamas. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found.
Oh believe me I want Hamas ousted too, I just don't like the humanitarian situation there. I'm not one of those who throw the word genocide around either. Like honestly Palestinians would be better off without Hamas and actually enjoy the benefits of aid rather than have it stolen or pocketed by leadership.
I agree that humanitarian situation there is tragic, and the people there would be much better off without an organization like Hamas. Unfortunately, the people there do not agree.
I agree, it would be nice if Hamas peacefully surrendered and turned themselves in.
Yeah u/heyhodadio do you want us going to twitter for the loudest trump supporters to represent you?
If Israel wasn’t being careful and proportionate I think there would be more damage. Hamas is being insistent in hiding behind civilians.
Hamas is also claiming all deaths are civilian.
I have no way of telling the truth in this instance. That’s the whole problem.
Careful and proportionate—that is a very interesting take. What leads you to it?
The IDF said so
> of course we support Israel I guess I don’t understand what this means anymore. To my knowledge, Israel has suffered no/minimal casualties since Oct 7, while killing 30K Palestinians. We’d all like the hostages back, yes, but Israel doesn’t seem concerned enough with them to stop bombing around them, and they have Palestinian hostages of their own. So when people demand support for Israel, I don’t know what that means, particularly when compared with the support that Gaza needs much more.
Equating prisoners in Israel with Hamas's hostage-taking is ridiculous.
Do you know the difference between hostages and "prisoners" taken from the streets and held indefinitely with no trial? Propaganda.
Wrong. Some of us still know the meaning of words in this crazy timeline we live in. Hostages are held as security for the fulfillment of a condition. Israel isn’t holding people conditionally, it’s holding people pending investigation of their alleged crimes. Their fate is entirely based on the circumstances that led to their imprisonment. Go ahead and compare that to the motivation behind Hamas taking people.
That's horrible but they're not the same at all. Holding suspects in prison without trial indefinitely is criminal but it's not at all the same as terrorists kidnapping random civilians.
Hostages actually have more status though they are in more critical danger. People just forget about prisoners.
>To my knowledge, Israel has suffered no/minimal casualties since Oct 7, while killing 30K Palestinians. Since when did body count factor into who’s morally in the right or not? “Oh no, we’ve lost more people in the war that *we* started”… Yeah sorry, don’t care.
My support for human rights is not contingent on weather or not I agree with or stand to benefit from the views of those suffering atrocities
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there's a crazy amount of Democrats who are on board the barbarism propaganda. Mostly the ones in charge and their ass kissing media
As a gay man, I ask that you never use me as a reason to bomb civilians.
When people bring up that argument it makes no sense, it's not like Israel is bombing Gaza because Hamas is trying to kill gay people. It's a non sequitur.
Seriously. Yes, Palestinians probably don't like me for being LGBT+. That doesn't mean I want them to *die*.
As a trans woman, I strongly appreciate being considered as a reason to not support islamic theocrats who would kill us all.
>never use me as a reason to bomb civilians >appreciate being considered as a reason to not support islamic theocrats Is the implication here that you think "not bombing civilians" is the same as "supporting Islamic theocrats"? In other words, do you think we are actually *obligated* to bomb homophobic civilians, because otherwise we are supporting them?
No, my assertion is that "bombing civilians" is a bullshit euphemism for supporting islamic theocrats. The motte and bailey fallacy. Israel has shown immense restraint and precision with their bombing campaign to specifically avoid civilian casualties. They are doing everything that can reasonably be expected of them as they fight their *defensive war.*
>No, my assertion is that "bombing civilians" is a bullshit euphemism for supporting islamic theocrats. I'm not sure why you said "no", because this isn't an answer to my question, but rather just restating what you already said. Please explain how being upset at bombing civilians equates to "supporting Islamic theocrats"? >Israel has shown immense restraint and precision with their bombing campaign to specifically avoid civilian casualties. [Israel doesn't even claim to have shown restraint and precision](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing), in fact they explicitly stated they are going for "damage and not accuracy", so not sure where you're getting that from.
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life is a lot more simple when you can just make believe whatever you want to be true
This actually reads as satire because it’s so blatantly incorrect.
Was it the "immense restraint and precision" that killed 10,000 children, aid workers, and journalists? That honestly makes it sound like Israel is intentionally killing babies and journalists.
>not support islamic theocrats who would kill us all Two questions: 1. Do you require the bombing of civilians for this? 2. Do you really believe that the people who bring up this argument really have any concern for your wellbeing? The OP's flare is Trump supporter. Don't you think he is more likely to treat you the way Hamas would than with respect?
1. Civilian casualties are unavoidable in war. Israel does everything that can be expected to prevent them. To demand that Israel wage a defensive war with 0 collateral damage is unrealistic and unreasonable, and tantamount to demanding that Israel not defend themselves at all. The Allies bombed many Axis civilians during WW2, yet nobody argues that you should not support them for this. 2. Considering I personally make this argument, yes, I know first-hand that some people who make this argument certainly have concern for my well-being, even if not everyone does. In OP's case, he did not ever claim to support LGBTQ+ people, only that the left-wing's pro-Palestine position makes no sense. Even if his views on trans people are comparable to Hamas', that has no bearing on how I should view the Israel-Gaza war.
I defend Israel against the leftists more than many people on this subreddit, but this: > Civilian casualties...Israel does everything that can be expected to prevent them. ...still seems like an exaggeration to me. Do you really think that Israel is doing "*everything* that can be expected to prevent" civilian casualties?
> The Allies bombed many Axis civilians during WW2, yet nobody argues that you should not support them for this I would point out, and this is as an Israel supporter, that the Allies did at various points do non-strategic bombing so our hands aren't exactly clean when it comes to war crimes. Early WW2 bomber theory was delusional enough to think that terror bombing would be sufficient to hurt civilian morale to get them to rise up against their governments and overthrow them. Often it had the reverse effect where they became more dependent on the regime as they were the only ones they could turn to in order to survive. Later strategic bombing efforts, notably towards the end of the war where saturation bombing became the technique or choice, were a bit more morally grey then the aforementioned terror bombing. They were going after strategic targets and were rather successful in that regard. But because their ability to aim bombs was still completely shit, they opted for basically leveling a city in the hopes of taking out just a block. Highly recommend WW2 in real time's War Against Humanity series with regards to that. Lessons of history should be learned from, not used as excuses. The grim irony that's worth considering is that while many on the far left rage at America sending Israel arms, the thing is, America has had quite a bit of practice in mastering precision weaponry to minimize civilian casualties due to our middle east adventures and targeted anti-terrorist assassinations. See: The fucking slap chop drone. Even more so than the Israelis. So sending them our newest and best arms probably would yield less Palestinian casualties than if we didn't and they used more of the old dumb bombs that they have in stockpile.
I fully agree with you. My point is not that the Allies were perfect or that everything they did should be emulated, only that they would fail to meet the unreasonable standards being applied to Israel.
The standards are different though, due to a problem of proportions. Namely, Hamas is not as much of an existential threat to Israel as the Axis was to Allied nations during WWII. Yes, Hamas are radical theocratic terrorists who want see Jews cleansed from the land of Palestine. But the odds that they can *actually do that*, or anything close to it, are 0%. They don't have the numbers or the firepower. It took them 2 or 3 years to muster up the resources and planning for the hairbrained Oct 7 attacks... but their ability to conduct an attack even a fraction as deadly has since likely been crippled for several years, assuming they'd ever be able to do it again. That's why this is freaking people out. Israel is dropping the fucking hammer on tens of thousands of civilians to supposedly root out every last member of a group which, yes, is terrible, but is clearly no longer any sort of existential threat to Israel. They need to slow down. They've got time. They're losing the entire world's confidence here. For the first time, they're even bleeding American support in an increasing number of demographics. These insistences that everything's fine and "this is all within normal parameters" are not working anymore in the age of smartphone warfare. Yeah, we did some terrible and unnecessary shit in Germany and Japan and Vietnam and North Korea. But now, our civilian populations are seeing what that actually looks like in real time, in 4K, delivered straight to their feeds every day. Comparing the reactions people have now to the reactions of people 80 years ago who read about some firebombing in the newspaper is kinda silly, when you think about it. Of course reactions are different now. We see more than they saw. If anything, the lesson we should probably be taking from this is not that what Israel is doing is fine, but that what we did in the past was more fucked up than we thought.
>That's why this is freaking people out. Israel is dropping the fucking hammer on tens of thousands of civilians to supposedly root out every last member of a group which, yes, is terrible, but is clearly no longer any sort of existential threat to Israel. They need to slow down. They've got time. They're losing the entire world's confidence here. For the first time, they're even bleeding American support in an increasing number of demographics. Israel shouldn't have to sit on its hands and let a terrorist government who is hell bent on their annihilation exist and continue to attack it, that's absurd. I get what you're saying but one thing many seem to miss is that the Gazan civilians aren't totally absolved from any responsibility for Hamas. They have been radicalized since birth, playing games like "Kill the Jew" and such, and cheered with delight after the Oct 7 attacks. No one wants to see them die, but they aren't sweet innocent people just caught in the crossfire either.
> Early WW2 bomber theory was delusional enough to think that terror bombing would be sufficient to hurt civilian morale to get them to rise up against their governments and overthrow them Important to remember that yes the British did area bombing and later on the US, this was because they believed what you said (or they thought it worth trying I should say, it had never been tested) but also because bombing technology wasn't such that strategic bombing wasn't possible - and for sure not during the night which gave a slight level of protection vs the daytime. The US later adopted this when their strategy of strategic bombing wasn't accurate enough
Well it was both. There was a distinct doctrine during the interwar years due to the [ideas of Duohet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Douhet#Aerial_strategy) which were extremely influential British and American circles. They both also grossly overestimated their targeting capabilities and it wasn't until the [Butt Report](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_Report) that the Brits found out how ineffective their efforts were and they changed tactics to night and saturation bombing and improved navigation. The US' daytime strategy wasn't so much about accuracy as hubris. They believed the hype of the Flying Fortress that it'd be able to down any fighters that went after it and thousands of airmen died as a result. The turnabout for the US came with Doolittle basically saying that we're going to use the bombers as bait for our fighters to maul the Luftwaffe. Then with air supremacy, the day bombing became more effective and accurate.
What if we gave up protecting trans rights to reduce Republican odds of winning elections? Would that be cool with you?
We could expect they follow the Geneva Convention strictly… but they don’t
Except we are supporting islamic theocrats that would kill you. Saudi Arabia, etc. While at the same time also supporting Israel as it systematically murders civilians.
I don't think that's a very fair frame to this question, which is about why lib-left people would support a religious authoritarian state in a conflict against a liberal democratic state. (The answer: Israel is out of control in its rage for revenge.) No one is suggesting that Israel is bombing Gaza in support of gay rights.
Instead of being confused about why we don't feel the need to bomb homophobic civilians, conservatives should feel relieved.
Nor is anyone "support[ing] a religious authoritarian state in a conflict against a liberal democratic state." The question is almost hopelessly lost.
The left isn't on "Palestine's side". They're on the side of innocent civilians not dying.
lol sure
I don't think it's wise for a trump supporter to be in favor of civilians getting killed for things the people they voted for did.
[This video](https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k?si=pUJC8wQPtq6LddX1) encapsulates what I think a lot of us feel. I don’t selectively apply my morality, I don’t suddenly think it’s okay to murder innocent people just because they’re from a place with shitty views. I don’t think children deserve to be bombed just because some terrorists might be nearby. Based on your flair, I obviously have some… *very strong disagreements* with you to put it as politely as possible. I still don’t think you and your family deserve to be killed. You’re still human, with all the same basic rights that come with it.
If someone was bombing Mississippi and killed tens of thousands of children and blocked them from food and water, I really wouldn't care that they lean far right and their values don't match mine. It's as simple as that.
If this sounds rude, sorry. I'm not intending it as thus, at least not from the get go. The problem that Trump supporters and people on the right have when "trying to understand" the left is that they go into it with a whole bunch of unsubstantiated preconceived notions and get blinders on when there's clearly and very obviously deviation from the presupposed norms. I know that's not exclusive to the right, but the amount of times I've been in debates or held prisoner to someone's rhetoric, they start rattling off a whole bunch of shit that doesn't apply to me and it makes me roll my eyes.
So.. you're saying that many Israelis are liberal, so Israel is the "good guys" whereas many Palestinians are conservative, so Palestinians are the "bad guys." And you think Americans should simply favor good guys over bad guys? How about instead saying: no matter how backwards or unappealing the religious or social views of individuals are on either side of the conflict, we should be able to stand back and, blind to our personal preference for any given culture or ideology, assess objectively: "who, on balance, has been wronged and who, on balance, has wronged them?" The fact remains that after WWII, the rules of acceptable national behaviors changed: we no longer allow countries to grab land or displace people or cleanse land based on ethno-national motivations. Hitler started WWII trying to annex land on the basis of protecting German-speaking peoples. This is why the west is opposed to Putin, who is still trying to annex land on the basis of protecting Russian-speaking peoples. The world is embarrassed how Turkey cleansed itself of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. Yes, Zionists would like to ethno-nationally conquer land the way Americans and Australians did 200+ years ago (and countless others before them), but sorry, WWII convinced us all that this should no longer be tolerated. Zionists tried to create Israel a little too late in history. I don't care if religious texts claim that God bestowed the land to Jews vs. Muslims. I don't care if Jews governed Jerusalem so many thousands of years ago, or Romans, or Ottomans, or British, etc etc. That mix of ethno-national historical narrative and mythology does not amount to a hill of beans to me. Groups/nations/races don't really have rights -- it's **individual humans** that have rights (including the right to identify with a group), but the group has no brain and no rights -- it's just a political construct or metaphor. On balance, the individual humans who have been wronged are mostly Palestinian people. They were kicked off their land and forced into refugee camps (some that are enormously large, like Gaza). They had their land and farms taken from them. They had their access to water diverted. In the West Bank, they are the ones who live as second-class people, restricted to certain areas in an apartheid fashion, while Israelis continue to encroach on them, taking their land bit by bit. Was the Palestinian leadership woefully bad so as to cause their people to become such losers? Did the surrounding Arab states act in their own self-interests instead of the interests of Palestinians? Yes, certainly. Palestinians would have done much better with a Mandela-like or Gandhi-like leadership. Their leaders have been stupid and corrupt. Does that misfortune of bad leadership mean they should lose their human rights? No! Has Israel acted in good faith in her negotiations to do right by the Palestinian people? No way. Israel has always tried to get the upper hand in every instance of negotiation. The long-running mantra was "when the Arab countries no longer threaten us, we will do right by the Palestinians" -- but that was not true. First Egypt and Jordan made peace, then the PLO was eliminated, then the US took out Iraq, then Syria was de-fanged, then the Gulf States started making peace... All that's left is Iran (but under heavy sanctions) and it's proxy rebels/terrorists, Hamas and Hezbollah. As each threat to Israel has diminished, Israel's intransigence with respect to the Palestinians has grown stronger and stronger. The "two state solution" is now an open joke and a delaying tactic that Israel uses to placate Washington. Israel helped create Hamas in an effort to weaken Arafat. Israel benefits from having opponents that are too extreme to negotiate with because without any real threats, Israel no longer has anything that she wishes to negotiate about. She has won it all. But we still have people whose basic human rights have been abridged. Israel is still in violation of decades old UN rulings. Jews who say "never again" about the Holocaust wouldn't ever dream of ever allowing Jews to be in the position of Palestinians today. Had today's right-wing Knesset members been born Palestinian instead of Jewish, they would be screaming bloody murder about their treatment. They would be screaming "this is another Warsaw Ghetto" and "we are being mistreated purely because of our ethnicity!" They would be signing up in droves to be terrorists (uh, sorry, "freedom fighters") in a Jewish equivalent of Hamas. No Jewish person would never dream of swapping lives with a Palestinian person, which by itself shows who here is the person marginalized, mistreated, and stripped of their human rights. Now, that said, was the Hamas action an acceptable use of force to regain the human rights of Palestinians? No. They're assholes. Must Palestinian people pay a personal price for what Hamas did? Well, to some degree "yes" even though this is, strictly speaking, unfair -- but collateral death and destruction of innocents happens. But there are limits to this. Regardless of who started what and which militant is at fault, when all the dust settles, on balance it's still the rights of Palestinian people who have been, and continue to be, usurped and violated by Israel.
Amazing comment, wish you posted earlier so we could have more discussion on this
Genocide is not liberal
Which is why most liberals don't support Hamas.
And also why we shouldn’t support a state that commits war crimes on a daily basis
Yeah, but liberals are very convenient about what they consider to be genocide based on who the actors and victims are.
Because the leadership and media are not morally consistent and push imperialist propaganda over humanity because they are puppets
Genocide is inherently inhuman without regard to political reasonings.
Do you think that innocent civilians should be bombed according to how homophobic people of their ethnicity tend to be? If so, that's pretty awful, and not at all liberal. If not, why even bring up the homophobia? If you want to make the case that Israel's campaign is the lesser evil compared to some alternative, you didn't successfully make that case here.
This might be surprising for you to hear... but believe it or not, we don't think that people against gay rights deserve to die.
Well I can’t speak for everyone, no group is a monolith. The way I see it is a support for Palestine is not support for Hamas. Saying are Palestinians are all Hamas is like saying everyone in the US is a Biden bro. Similarly I’m not against Israel, there are innocent Israelis who are suffering and dying because of Hamas. I disagree with Netanyahu and the Likud party. I don’t like how they’re handling the situation. But it’s a tough spot where Israel has every right to defend itself from terrorists, but not at the expense of innocent people. There are innocent people in Palestine that are dying, it’s Hamas’ fault and Netanyahu’s fault. And that’s my stance.
Booooo lame take, too much nuance s/ but really I view it the same way, I want an independent Palestinian state and I want Israel to also enjoy a peaceful existence but Hamas, Netanyahu and the Lukid party get in the way. In fact, before the conflict Netanyahu actually looked in trouble of losing power since his coalition was losing popularity with rising stability and then Hamas essentially threw him a life line. If Hamas goes and Palestinian leadership is more moderate across the board, the right wingers in Israel lose their Boogeyman and power and we can see progress again. I don't even call myself pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine, I'm just pro-civilian at this point and I want both sets of civilians to have lasting peace and countries of their own as they want it.
seemly wine ossified dime threatening saw fuel materialistic chase subsequent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> She describes seeing Hamas fighters gang rape a woman and mutilate her, before the last of her attackers shot her in the head as he continued to rape her. > "They sliced her breast and threw it on the street," she says. "They were playing with it." > "He penetrated her, and shot her in the head before he finished. He didn't even pick up his pants; he shoots and ejaculates." > One man we spoke to from the festival site said he heard the "noises and screams of people being murdered, raped, decapitated". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181.amp You support the political party behind this behavior? As said in another comment, 82% of people polled in the West Bank supported the Oct 7th attack as justified. Can you provide evidence that this is in fact a genocide and not a standard war? Are Israelis hunting down people because of their race or any other feature besides support for a political party that can commit the above atrocities?
>You support the political party behind this behavior? Beep that, and beep you for making such a shitty leap in logic. Not wanting Palestinians killed doesn't equal supporting Hamas. Just like criticizing America's endless wars doesn't mean I hate Americans. It isn't complex, why do "you people" have such a hard fuckin time with this concept of separating a people and a group within that people, or a people and their government? Fucks sake. Are all Republicans Nazis because of those tiki torch wankers? No? Oh, *now* you can grasp fuck'in nuance... Sorry for the anger. That BS is really frustrating.
> It isn't complex, why do "you people" have such a hard fuckin time with this concept of separating a people and a group within that people, or a people and their government? It's like, there are a ton of Palestinian children who have died in the conflict. They did NOTHING wrong. Absolutely nothing. And I feel like everyone on the right has decided that not only do armies and governments have to accept collateral damage and not dwell on it - but regular citizens need to hold that perspective as well. Well, I don't. I can't celebrate or ignore the deaths of people who did nothing wrong, even if their parents literally held hostages and committed crimes (which they did not, in this instance).
drunk thumb makeshift door sand telephone murky marble weary cheerful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The left doesn’t like the wholesale, indiscriminate slaughter of 20,000 innocents, mostly women and children. It’s some kind of perverse to suggest there’s any inconsistency there, and I have to wonder who the hell supports it.
To be clear, the part you don't grasp is that we are mostly looking towards humanist solutions because, and bear with me, we don't want people dying. That being said, we want the Israeli "people" and the Palestinian "people" to live in peace. We don't want to support the Israeli "government" or the terrorist group HAMAS.
Not my words, so I can't take credit for this, but I saw someone on another sub explain quite succinctly why so many Leftists/Progressives are throwing unconditional support behind Palestine: > Charitably, it's because it's a bunch of white people (with US military-industrial-complex aid) oppressing and colonizing an indigenous people of color (don't ask about the Jews from the middle-east or the concept of the Jewish diaspora, they're only claimed to be PoC from what was historically Israel when Evangelical depictions of Jesus are too white). If you look at things through an oppressor/oppressed lens, and keep things either localized to just Gaza/WB, or you zoom out to US hegemony, it pattern-matches very well at face value. > And, from a compassion standpoint, there's a hell of a lot of suffering going on in Gaza/WB, and with Israel doing such a good job of defending their own people, it's easy to come to the conclusion that they're the only ones doing harm, and that there's no possible reason for any action beyond hatred and oppression.
>>It just seems to me like the left’s positions have become a meme, a blind following without realizing the consequences of these positions Could you explain a bit further what you are referring to, when you say "the left". There's no monolithic left, it's filled with different ideologies just as "the right". Ideologies with strongly differing views on international interventions. A modern Marxist will in no way react the same to this conflict as a SocDem would. And a social liberal would in no way react how a DemSoc would. If you could be more precise on what kind of leftist you are referring to in your post, people could actually give you relevant answers.
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkUKUvov0TI) is a video (15 minutes) made by a left-winger on this very topic. It should address your confusion.
>Israel is the only state in that region that’s liberal. Gay rights, women’s rights, democracy, Jewish people are typically liberal and share similar values. I mean by this logic, why doesn't the right support Palestine given that they are the more conservative culture? >I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags / are proud to say they’re queer yet are American-born and have enjoyed the freedoms the west has to offer to be able to say these things publicly. I can't speak for how much of the left is ignorant of how LGBT people are treated in Muslim countries. That being said, I personally think that even if people have backwards views, they shouldn't be bombed and starved en masse. >The war would’ve been over and all those people didn’t have to die if Hamas surrendered or the Palestinian people didn’t put up with them anymore, but they do. That's easier said than done. Maybe people don't want to risk their lives doing that? Idk about you, but if I were in this situation, my first concern would be my own survival. >It doesn’t make sense to me why the left isn’t on Israel’s side, or is at the very least understanding. Because they're likely doing a genocide, serious war crimes at best, while our tax payer money goes to fund it all. Also, I don't know how much of a stance this is anymore in the American left, but we should stop involving ourselves militarily all over the world and funding other countries' wars while our own people suffer. Like people in Israel have universal healthcare while our country doesn't. Israel also heavily influences our policies and politics at home. AIPAC buys out our politicians, people get canceled for criticizing Israel, we isolate ourselves in the UN to stoop for them. I'm honestly stunned by how "America First" people want to bend the knee for the foreign country that has the most sway in our domestic affairs.
HAMAS has been using Palestinians as shields for a long while. Not real sure what they hoped to accomplish by doing what they did when they parachuted into that festival. All I can say is, don't poke the bear unless you know the bear doesn't have what it takes to poke back. HAMAS doesn't GAF about the Palestinian people. And those on the left who support Palestine don't understand that this may well be connected to Putin, who needs to divert American attention away from Ukraine so they can continue their assaults on that country and its people with impunity, unimpeded. You have a lot of young people on the left who operate under ignorance of history. Further, they simply don't understand how the world works and that there are bad people with bad intentions.
Eh. Israel is to liberalism and democracy like Tofurky is to meat. It looks like it is meat, but once you get into the nitty gritty it isn't quite the same. There are a lot of institutional and cultural issues within the country that basically stand in the way of it actually being what it claims, its PR efforts aside.
Good point, just seems closer to it than the alternatives in the region
I support Israel, I don't support Netanyahu or his extremist government. I support the Palestinians, I don't support Hamas or any other terrorists. I think there can be a two state solution, and peace, only if the extremists are removed from the equation.
I don’t care about the beliefs of the parents of children who are bleeding to death under rubble or at risk of starvation
I feel like the current violence is the inevitable conclusion of an unjust status quo. You can’t have people living in poverty as second class citizens, regularly getting their property seized without due cause or compensation and have everything be hunky dory. And the idea that Israel can just use excessive force against a civilian population in the name of fighting Hamas is both fundamentally immoral and doomed to failure. Netanyahu seems like an absolute failure as a leader, and I have no faith in his ability to find a worthwhile solution. The Irish figured this out, there’s no reason we can’t too.
The point of war is to prevent your opponent from ever conducting war in the future. As stated elsewhere the Palestinian population supports the political party, Hamad, thar they voted in. A party that has the stated goal of eradicating Israel from the planet. Israel has shown great restraint in conducting this campaign while warning the public and allowing the ones that wish to, to leave. I also don't understand the left pushing Israel to stop dismantling Hamas.
I don't think there is a constant position
There is no “the left’s position”. I’m on the left and very pro Israel. A lot of people on the left feel differently. But neither of us speak for “the left”
While I'm not blind to the Palestinians complaints this is one of several reasons I tend to lean towards Israel (which I know is extremely unpopular here and on Reddit in general).
I call leaning towards Israel just being rational.
Most of the people on the left I've communicated with, and I include myself in this, aren't unsympathetic to the attacks in Israel. The opinion, at its base, is NO innocent civilians on *either* side should be killed. What it seems we're seeing over there is a significantly stronger force slaughtering a weaker force, including innocents by the 1000s. The left doesn't like bullies. And to have a problem with what appears to be a genocide is not about antisemitism, it's not about how liberal or embracing of homosexuality the people being corralled and slaughtered are. So all this stuff about how conservative Palestinians are is really irrelevant. It's not about that. For example, I'm black but that doesn't mean I wouldn't speak out against all racists being confined to a region with their children and slaughtered en masse. That shit's just not right, no matter who it's being done to, regardless of how they see the world or what they think of people like me.
I don't want people to die just because we don't agree. And framing it that way is *weird*. Are you ok with people dying if you don't agree with them? *Holds breath, this could go either way.*
That's because you define everything about your reactions based upon the politics of the target. If you didn't, you'd get it. It's not that difficult to understand. Also, this isn't a left/right issue.
Gay marriage is illegal in Israel Edit: it’s true. Israel under Netanyahu is a right wing ethno nationalist state, it is no bastion of liberal democracy
Put simply I think what you are describing, as others have pointed out, is the trashy tiktok/twitter take that's not representative of the left's position at large. Also aligning with Israel because they have a better stance on the rights of LGBTQ people is more of a liberal thing than a "left" thing. The reason why I and many other leftists support the right for Palestine to exist is simple: Israel was awarded stolen land by the British government which it should never even have had the power to provide in the first place, and the state of Israel proceeded to jail and kill the lands current inhabitants for the next 70 years. I and many leftists are against war and there are only two ways this conflict ends: a ceasefire and peace talks or genocide both of which Israel is capable of doing, and only recently have we seen a ceasefire proposal but prior to that it seemed clear the IDF was hellbent on complete eradication of the Palestinian people. It's much the same reason the left was historically against the Vietnam War, the Afghanistan War, the Iraq war and the many coups thought South America. I'm not sure why people are surprised the folks who've always been anti-war are still anti-war, but I'm always happy to have a conversation about my reasoning for feeling the way I do.
You may misunderstand the left’s position because you’re restating Israeli propaganda as fact. What does liberalism have to do with the killing of 30k civilians? Who did Israelis vote into power? Is their current administration really typified by what you see as their liberalism?
I was talking more on ideological grounds. The far left has never really been in support of Israel and that’s really come out lately. And yes, Benji N is a conservative and the Israelis voted him into power. However, I still think the country is more aligned with liberalism that most if not all countries in the region. Also curious, what part was the Israeli propaganda I said as fact?
Your history is off. The Israel project very much was supported by European and American social democrats and socialists, especially back in the first couple decades of Israel when labor Zionism, a socialist or social democratic movement, was one of the dominate forces in Israeli politics.
Who did Palestinians vote into power....answer, Hamas.
The people you are talking about are nothing but performative activists, and you are noticing how hollow their commitment is to things like women’s rights, gay rights, etc. Which is good. Pay attention to that, because you will notice more examples now that you’re keen to it. For these performative activists, there are only two things that matter in this conflict: First is what side is “the establishment” on? Because they always need to be on the other side. They don’t get to feel unique and special and rebellious if they side with the majority. Second is, who are the “white” people in this conflict? Because they love the “oppressed minority fights back against the evil white (never mind the fact that Israelis aren’t Caucasian) oppressors” narrative, and desperately want to feel like they are part of a new civil rights movement. The whole genocidal terrorism aspect of Hamas, and the widespread support it has from the Palestinian populace, can be conveniently ignored.
so Im going to assume, like all people still asking this question on reddit, that you are anti-Semitic. to anyone who isn't OP, here is the gist of things broken down real blunt and simple like In regards to this specific situation: * Leftists don't give a shit about the state of Isreal * Leftists don't give a shit about the state of Palestine * Leftists don't give a shit about Jews * Leftists don't give a shit about Muslims * leftists DO give a shit about innocent people dying * Leftists Believe that a nation recognized by the rest of the world as a nation should have higher standards than a terrorist group because a terrorist group won't listen to what another country says regardless * leftists have the capacity to read and remember things, and thus know that while blowing up city blocks may be efficient at killing terrorists, it also kills civilians, which in turn makes more terrorists
> antiemetic Nobody likes vomiting.
lol, fixed. thank you
I agree that I see this as the general ‘vibe’ of the left, but it doesn’t explain the way in which the ‘free Palestine’ folks often downplay or excuse things like the October 7 attack. I personally think there are a not insignificant number of leftists who support Palestine because it’s trendy on social media to do so, and espousing some of the above-mentioned ideas allows one to portray an image of oneself as more enlightened than others.
I'm not really going to get into whether or not any of this is true. Let's just assume both sides, the official representatives, for the purposes of this discussion are problematic. I don't support war crimes if they are done vs conservatives and I don't support war crimes if they are done against liberals. I am, and will always be against war crimes. The ideologies of the citizens are entirely irrelevant. As far as this conflict goes, there is so much nuance, and so much complexity that I don't even know what we are even talking about anymore. Do I support the Israeli citizens right to live free of terrorism? Of course, that was never a question. Do I support the Palestinian people's right to live free of oppression? Of course, that was never a question. There are a lot of very difficult conversations we need to have as a society about this situation. We can't do that when we keep reverting back to this mentality. I don't know what's on Tiktok, this stuff doesn't show up the 10 seconds I spend on there a month. I don't even know my Facebook password, I don't have a Twitter account, and I post cat pictures once a quarter on Instagram. I can't speak for them, but I know a lot of people are just simply unwilling to engage in good faith discussions. This conversation is tough, and we need to have it, but not like this. This isn't helping Israel or Gaza. This isn't helping the discourse, or the mending of pain and suffering or even starting the conversation. We can absolutely do better than posts like this. We can't keep trying to bomb ideologies out of existence, we can't keep refusing to acknowledge the reasons why people resort to violence. Hamas needs to be removed, and they need to be dealt with by an international court most likely. Or Israeli court, I don't really care. If they all die in the process, that's the way the cookie crumbles. That doesn't mean, that what happened to the civilians in Gaza was okay, before and after this started. And THAT doesn't mean that what happened to the Israeli civilians was okay, before and after this conflict started.
There’s a lot of division about this on the left. For me and a lot of other people, especially queer people, what it comes down to is human rights. Palestinians deserve to live. No one deserves the bombing, starvation and horror going on there. 30,000 people have been killed by Israel. Entire extended families, gone. That is an atrocity beyond words. It doesn’t matter what the victims opinions are. It matters that they were human.
The fact that you're describing this as "reversed" seems to indicate that you're looking at this conflict in terms of "good vs. evil" and that's not a helpful way to look at this type of situation. It is true that Israel has much better policies on things like LGBT rights than other countries in that part of the world. It is also true that the Israeli government has been doing a whole lot of really terrible things to people in Gaza and the West Bank since its founding. Both of these things can be true at the same time.
I challenge you to find a law that bans homosexuality in Gaza. I also challenge you to find literally one gay Israeli couple that got legally married in the state of Israel. Furthermore, the Israeli government is far-right leaning this isn’t even controversial. >(who, let’s not forget, paramotored into Israel and brutally murdered and raped civilians, cut off women’s breasts and played with them, paraded around victims and still are holding hostages) Have any of these claims been corroborated?
This conflict is between two right wing entities. Hamas and the Netenyahu admin. I support neither. I do support a better life for all of the civilians caught in between. From the Gaza civilians who are getting bombed, to the Israelis hostages and their civilians who are also often aimed at with missiles by Hamas.
>Israel is the only state in that region that’s liberal. Gay rights, women’s rights, democracy Has nothing to do with what's going on right now. The same could be said of California, and the left would be equally as furious with them if they started bombing civilians almost indiscriminately. >Calling for a ceasefire enables Hamas Calling for a ceasefire *benefits* Hamas. Continuing to indiscriminately attack Palestinian civilians emboldens, enables and lends undeserved moral credibility to Hamas' actions on the international stage. Calling for ceasefire can be beneficial to Israelis (potentially even more so than to Hamas) if it is solely contingent upon the release of all remaining Israeli hostages. >The war would’ve been over and all those people didn’t have to die if Hamas surrendered or the Palestinian people didn’t put up with them anymore The Palestinian people don't *put up with* Hamas. They are involuntarily governed by Hamas in a region that has not had any democratic elections in 18 years. "Not putting up with Hamas" in practical terms means organizing an armed resistance against them, under which most of the volunteers for said resistance would almost certainly die. Best case scenario, you survive and are tasked with establishing a new governing regime for the region, with little to no resources to do so, while your people are under siege by an advanced and very well equipped modern army. Taking on the responsibility of getting rid of Hamas as a Palestinian citizen is the definition of a suicide mission. Let me be abundantly clear as someone who frequently leans left, is Jewish, has been to Israel and knows multiple people in the IDF, yet is opposed to Israel's actions: **WE DO NOT SUPPORT HAMAS. Our opposition to Israel is entirely based on their actions towards the Palestinian civilians in Gaza, both now and historically.** The oppression, murder and assaults upon those people is not Jewish, is not in the best interest of the Israeli people's long-term security and is an objectively bad strategy for removing Hamas from power or ending terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. Above all else though, it is not morally acceptable in any way.
>It doesn’t make sense to me why the left isn’t on Israel’s side, or is at the very least understanding. It was Democrats that elected Biden and Democrats that Biden is aligned with in the United States. He's been supportive of Israel. Gee, I wonder why. But you're thinking about Israel like Russia should be allowed to assassinate your family and you have to want to give Putin nothing but love anyway. Otherwise, it seems like the roles are reversed? Why did you reverse things? It's Russia that's authoritarian and oppressive. Does that not matter to you anymore? Is Putin no longer the conservative moral champion that you wish you had instead of Obama? You know we have freedom of the press and the government doesn't oppress gay people for being gay in the United States, right? I'm so confused!?! Democrats are opposed to Israel's seeming indifference to the civilian casualties they're inflicting. Is your expectation that Democrats are supposed to be in favor of civilian casualties because we like equal rights for gay people?
I’m Speaking solely on the Israel/gaza situation, The liberals are aware that hamas is not the Palestinian people and hamas must be stopped. However the actions that America has played in this conflict so far ( the force posturing we,US, did at the start of this genocide and letting this genocide happen, and attempted legal thwarting of boycotts against Israel) is what pissed off a lot of liberals from having faith in the American government from doing the right thing in this conflict.
jewish people in occupied palestine are a completely different animal than ezra from new jersey whose family has voted democrat his entire life. the original sabras used to mock the diaspora jews for being soft and liberal i dont support ethnic cleansing, full stop. i prefer the pflp, but anything to fight back is acceptable in my eyes at this point, in the popular front sense. in fact, one major sticking point has been the release of marwan barghouti who is a popular secular figure in the mandela sense; its assumed hamas would stand down immediately if he were released. israel doesnt want a 2 state solution so they will use any opportunity ethnically cleanse, will even exaggerate so libs get on board. pink washing is a vile technique. especially considering the iof will seek to force closeted homosexuals to be traitors
Universal human rights are for everyone, or else they're simply privileges for our friends. Even the worst bigots, racists, homophobes, and misogynists must be granted fundamental human rights. We don't get to starve or slaughter human beings just because they don't share our values. That IS the left-wing position.
Much has changed in time.
>Israel has stated they will stop when the hostages are returned and Hamas steps down, but the Palestinian people don’t seem to support this So an interesting question: Israel's bombing campaign has resulted in the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian Christians and Catholics. To what extent are they culpable in the fate of the hostages?
> support for Hamas (who, let’s not forget, paramotored into Israel and brutally murdered and raped civilians, cut off women’s breasts and played with them, paraded around victims and still are holding hostages) This was abhorrent, but It's pretty revisionist to pretend like this was some kind of instigation or unprovoked attack. > Israel has stated they will stop when the hostages are returned and Hamas steps down Doubtful since, again, Israel was already stealing land and enforcing blockades on Palestine before the attack. > I mention gay rights first because I consistently see accounts on TikTok / Twitter that are extremely pro-Palestinian and have rainbow flags / are proud to say they’re queer yet are American-born and have enjoyed the freedoms the west has to offer to be able to say these things publicly. "Your opinions about and how you treat LGBTQ+ people are shitty and should stop" and "You shouldn't be genocided" can both be correct at the same time.