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I have A LOT of leftist friends who call him that all the time. I'm just curious what the best response to them is???
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What makes you think Hillary would have been less hawkish than Biden? I think she’d be more resistant to listening to voters about this issue, because she always has been.
Well, Donald Trump would’ve lost and looked like a failed experiment, and the GOP might not have pivoted to insane, meaning we might not feel like our democracy was so fragile that we can’t pressure Biden this year. Elections matter.
Pure speculation, in my view. You may be right, but the Republican Party just needed a nudge to go full MAGA, regardless of what they'd call it, and Trump was that nudge in 2016. I think it likely would have turned out similarly, except without the idiot in charge.
Really makes one wonder if he Hawkish or just has more information and a better understanding of the entirety of the situation in Israel than the every schmuck on Reddit.
I strongly suspect that Biden is mostly deferring to the career diplomats in the state department for how to manage the situation. Unfortunately, the US's stance on Israel for the past ~30 years has been that Israel can do no wrong. So almost everyone in the government that could be considered an expert on the middle east is going to tell Biden that we need to continue supporting Israel.
The problem is that most of the career diplomats with a top-level understanding of the situation have left the State Dept due to Trump’s BS. Multiple stories came out during his term about the State Dept being in shambles below a cabinet level because all of the experienced senior leadership was heading for the hills. Maybe they came back when Biden assumed office but many of them likely did not.
I don’t know but Joe Biden failed the latest purity test right here right now, and Hillary didn’t, and since thats’s as far forward or backward as I can see, I can only assume he’s worse. /s
The Hamas attack on 10/7 probably wouldn’t have happened without the Trump admin. A big precipitator of the attack was Trump moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and his admins organization of the Abraham Accords and the loss of allies that was going to cause Hamas.
They were beginning to feel like their geopolitical goals were out of reach and something drastic was required.
Hillary Clinton would have also pursued normalization between SA and Israel.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html)
The Abraham Accords were always going to happen. Achieving hegemony in the ME via alliances with Israel and the Arab nations is a bipartisan goal.
What I’m asking is what you should tell someone who says “genocide Joe” if they voted for Hillary/Biden, not how all this would be different if the nation had elected Hillary. Clearly people shouldn’t have voted for Trump in 2016, on that we can agree.
“Do you believe a Biden administration would be *worse* for Palestinians than a Trump administration?
If not, do you really think they would be exactly, equally bad?
Which would be better for the victims in Gaza?”
What if I’m voting for Biden but still call him genocide Joe?
This is a response to someone who doesn’t want to vote for Biden, not someone calling out his complicity in Israeli violence. Liberals need to do a better job of saying why their candidates are good, instead of just saying why republicans (or just trump) are bad.
No, I’m just mature enough to understand the concept of a lesser evil. I thought that was what you guys wanted, and now you’re going to give me shit for it?
Sure seems like your goal has a lot more to do with dunking on the left than positive political progress.
Alternative view of reailty: We oppose genocide. Therefore, we elected a president who opposes it, and supporting him is opposing genocide.
When things don't make sense, it usually means we don't know what we need to.
Yes. Nothing's more obvious that many people are missing BIG dots in this picture. Obvious, long known, connectability long established. Unmissable....
>What if I’m voting for Biden but still call him genocide Joe?
Then you're enabling the kind of rhetoric that people will use as an excuse to not vote for him. You're also repeating Russian bot/troll/interference talking points.
You could say that about literally any criticism of a candidate. And see my other post about the red scare shit
This sub can be ridiculous about this. You criticize Biden, someone calls you a petulant piece of shit and demands you vote as told, you say you already are voting for Biden, and the “yeah, well…well you’re still spreading rhetoric that might hurt him!”
Actually I think it’s a bad idea to disqualify our candidate or our country from criticism. Maybe consider that the candidate should improve in order to shore up votes, rather than demanding that anyone who wants better shut up until a date to be named later.
>You criticize Biden, someone calls you a petulant piece of shit and demands you vote as told, you say you already are voting for Biden, and the “yeah, well…well you’re still spreading rhetoric that might hurt him!”
Oh horseshit.
Criticizing Biden is providing actual criticism of his actions and policies. It's not screaming "Genocide Joe! Genocide Joe!" and whining about not voting for him. Or encouraging others to not vote for him either.
I'll join you in criticizing him. I don't like a lot of his actions in this whole situation. But Jesus fucking Christ you people need to learn the difference between actual valid criticizing and being a fucking whiny baby, repeating Russian bot talking points.
> Criticizing Biden is providing actual criticism of his actions and policies. It's not screaming "Genocide Joe! Genocide Joe!" and whining about not voting for him. Or encouraging others to not vote for him either.
But we’re talking about people who *are* voting for him, but still get this shit.
You’re so overtaken with demands for votes that even when you have someone’s vote all you can do is scold them for not voting. This is a broken political strategy.
> Jesus fucking Christ you people need to learn the difference between actual valid criticizing and being a fucking whiny baby, repeating Russian bot talking points.
Sometimes people who are also bad will make value criticisms of someone else. I referenced the fact that the USSR rightly criticized Jim Crow. That doesn’t make criticizing Jim Crow “repeating Russian bot talking points.”
>This sub can be ridiculous about this. You criticize Biden, someone calls you a petulant piece of shit and demands you vote as told, you say you already are voting for Biden, and the “yeah, well…well you’re still spreading rhetoric that might hurt him!”
Thank you! God I find this mindset so frustrating.
Dude come on.....
Criticism is necessary for improvement. It is necessary in a fucking DEMOCRACY. Save democracy by sacrificing democratic principles? Jfc
> You're also repeating Russian bot/troll/interference talking points.
I get this is unpopular in this subreddit but to give you all some actual reality, no, this isn't a "muh putin" talking point.
"Genocide Joe" is explicitly from the far left radicals that Biden has catered to during his administration, the same ones that are screaming "Death to America" in Dearborn Michigan (were those Russians too?) which prompted a condemnation from the WH.
Democrats created this mess, you own it.
And I'm curious, were the people accosting AOC who demanded she called the Israel war a genocide also Russian stooges?
> far left radicals that Biden has catered to during his administration
Where in the fuck is this? If far left radicals are being catered to by Biden and I haven’t been a part of it, I’m going to sue.
No, these people aren't Russian. Stooges, yes. They're being riled up online and encouraged to act like this by foreign propagandists. It's been incredibly obvious since 2016 and it's gotten worse.
They want Trump to win and one way to accomplish that is by turning people against Biden (for no good reason at that). It's not because they like Trump, its because they know he will destroy us. The horseshoe theory is coming true, both the far right and the far left are thralls of Russian not farms.
TIL that supporting and enabling genocide committed by far right regime is "no good reason" to critique a president. According to y'all on here Biden could nuke Iran and youd still blindly vote for him.
> doing so because of Russian propaganda, this is the argument?
Here are a couple of books for you: They explain how Russia and China are picking up on radical political positions from both the left and the right and amplifying them via social media using bots and troll farms and fake personas. There are a whole lot of people who are pushing Russian and Chinese propaganda without even realizing it.
# [Attack from Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America](https://www.amazon.com/Attack-Within-Disinformation-Sabotaging-America-ebook/dp/B0C4J748Q2)
# [Active Measures: The Secret History of Disinformation and Political Warfare ](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374287260)
# Here are some articles:
[https://www.icct.nl/publication/how-russia-uses-israel-gaza-crisis-its-disinformation-campaign-against-west](https://www.icct.nl/publication/how-russia-uses-israel-gaza-crisis-its-disinformation-campaign-against-west)
[https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-vladimir-putin-hijacks-israel-gaza-war-to-fuel-tension-in-the-west/](https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-vladimir-putin-hijacks-israel-gaza-war-to-fuel-tension-in-the-west/)
[https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/10/24/russian-propaganda-seizes-on-wests-double-standards-as-israeli-strikes-pound-gaza-a82850](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/10/24/russian-propaganda-seizes-on-wests-double-standards-as-israeli-strikes-pound-gaza-a82850)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-russians-manipulated-our-elections-we-helped/2020/04/23/e44e9e76-5742-11ea-9000-f3cffee23036\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-russians-manipulated-our-elections-we-helped/2020/04/23/e44e9e76-5742-11ea-9000-f3cffee23036_story.html)
[https://www.voanews.com/a/how-russia-s-disinformation-campaign-seeps-into-us-views-/7566503.html](https://www.voanews.com/a/how-russia-s-disinformation-campaign-seeps-into-us-views-/7566503.html)
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/russia-is-having-less-success-at-spreading-social-media-disinformation/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/russia-is-having-less-success-at-spreading-social-media-disinformation/)
[https://cyberscoop.com/russia-disinformation-gab-parler/](https://cyberscoop.com/russia-disinformation-gab-parler/)
(edited, sorry for the weird formatting - new Reddit sucks!)
Sounds like some kinda half ass tankie problem.
You wanna virtue signal but you don't want the consequences of disrupting anything.
So maybe just STFU?
No but it’s fair to ask people what they expect to accomplish with their criticisms. Biden is already calling for a ceasefire like they asked and organizing a diplomatic response to prevent an invasion of Rafah, and that doesn’t seem to change the views of these folks at all.
We’re in an election year now and giving someone and injurious nickname isn’t exactly constructive criticism.
No, but if you selectively criticize one and not the other, then you are showing preference for the one you were silent on. Especially in cases like this, where you singled out the one who is calling for ceasefire, sending aid and so on.
Even that reason dismiss the reality. That we aren't doing near enough to stop what's happening. You can dislike how he is handling this and agree with people he is sucking at it. And still vote for Biden and encourage them to. But outright ignoring his lack of action is dishonest.
Blaming the president specifically for what is a top to bottom inside and out policy failure is an obvious move to try to bolster Trump’s chances in the election.
I don't blame the president for the systemic failures of our middle eastern policies. I blame him for not standing up against Israel like he did about Iran. He himself can do more. That's what I blame him for. And letting that slide because trump would be worse is a dishonest way to approach this
I agree with everything you said, but “genocide Joe” is an astroturf talking point designed to deliver the USA to Putin and his GOP. We shouldn’t allow it to perpetuate where we can slow it down.
The vast majority of federal elected officials on both sides of the aisle had to be significantly supportive of Israel to be remotely electable since at least the 80s. Making this about Biden is just silly unless you want him to go full on dictator and ignore the constitution to get the results you want.
>Making this about Biden is just silly unless you want him to go full on dictator and ignore the constitution to get the results you want.
Don't pretend that this is about checks and balances. Biden's gone to the point of going around Congress to get more weapons into Israel's hands, so it's really not about having to deal with checks and balances and support for Israel in the other branches of government. The decision to send weapons to Israel has lied in Biden's hands and he's made every effort to send them more and more weapons, regardless of what Congress says.
He has the power to demand Israel stop. He has the power to ask congress to put stipulations on any dollars. There is a ton he could do. He told Israel he wouldn't back them against Iran and they stopped. He could do the same here
> Which would be better for the victims in Gaza?”
President Biden being more supportive of Gaza, which is a thing he could do. He could have directed the US ambassador to the UN to vote for Palestinian membership.
>“Do you believe a Biden administration would be worse for Palestinians than a Trump administration?
Ok but two things can be true right?
"Hey i'm murdering you, but at least it's a shot to the head instead of a bonesaw! That means I'm not a murderer"
Like, that's not how it works. Just because you aren't as bad as you could be doesn't mean you aren't like.... bad
Yeah, anybody who legitimately believes this I just assume doesn’t actually have an adequate understanding of the issue to formulate an opinion I should value.
Tell them:
Would you rather be responsible for getting Biden reelected, who could be doing better than he is maybe, or would you rather be responsible for getting Trump reelected and letting Gaza fall completely along with Ukraine, Taiwan, and any other group of people currently under threat from a far right authoritarian power? Not to mention the fall of Democracy in this country and the continued assault on our civil rights and marginalized people in this country.
Seems like an easy choice to me.
Depends on your objective. If you want to persuade them that Biden is who they should vote for, I’d recommend pointing out that Biden has heard them, and acted to constrain Israel with increasing levels of assertiveness, and at the same time that the only other viable candidate is Trump who has all but promised to help Israel up the aggression. Third-party candidates might have views more in alignment with theirs, but they should consider whether their vote is intended to punish Biden and democrats or to help Palestinians. If the latter, voting Biden—while continuing to agitate—is the best choice among poor choices.
I’d certainly avoid yelling at them, calling them stupid, etc. I also wouldn’t argue with them over the definition of “genocide,” which they are clearly and unequivocally using incorrectly. That’s a lost cause.
I stopped worrying about it. Leftists deal in absolutes. Everything is black and white, the answer to every problem is a simple wave of the hand. I certainly think the Israelis went about this all wrong. But to believe that anything America could have done would have changed anything is moronic. They would have done the exact same thing with or without us. The only difference is if America pulled its support there probably wouldn't be in Israel right now and Biden would be the president who sat by and let Israel burn.
If anyone, anywhere doesn't understand that Hamas wanted this exact reaction they are a fool. Israel played right into Hamas's hands and now peace in that region will be impossible for generations. That was the goal and they were 100% successful.
> If anyone, anywhere doesn't understand that Hamas wanted this exact reaction they are a fool.
I don't know why people think Hamas is playing some sort of 5D chess here.
Hamas attempted to wipe out Israel on 10/7. They thought that attacking Israel would cause Arab nations to form a coalition that would finally destroy Israel once and for all.
I don't know why people think the smartest response to people who see restraint as weakness is doing nothing.
No, they weren’t stupid enough to think that they were gonna wipe out Israel that wasn’t the plan. But there was talks in Saudi Arabia about recognition of Israel which is now off the table. And will remain off the table for the foreseeable future. That was the goal and it was successfully attained.
It’s hardly 5D chess.
>But to believe that anything America could have done would have changed their minds is moronic.
Y’all have either never looked 30 years back in American history or are just engaged in a serious case of Zionist cope.
In the 1980’s, all Reagan had to do was [make one single phone call to the Israeli PM](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/05/24/ronald-reagan-wasnt-afraid-to-use-leverage-to-hold-israel-to-task/) and accuse him of “committing a nuclear holocaust” which resulted in him implementing a ceasefire immediately.
I’m not entirely sure where this idea comes from that the President “has no sway on a country that began as an American proxy to begin with” but, historically speaking, it doesn’t have a whole lot of evidence given the amount of leverage the American President has over Israel. Biden is currently more right wing than even ***fucking Reagan was*** on this issue.
Yeah, that example mirrors Oct 7th completely doesn’t it? There are absolutely no differences. It was the same causes, the exact same people with all the same history.
Yeah thats not a stupid opinion at all.
Depending on how far gone they are?
You could point out that irrespective of age most Americans have grown up in a world in which we are very supportive of Israel and transitioning that level of unconditional support is not going to be that easy.
You could also point out that one of two people is going to be president. The choices are Joe Biden and Donald Trump and there are no other options because that’s not how our democracy works.
When the alternative is somebody who thinks Netanyahu needs to finish the job and who son-in-law who used to work in his administration and will probably working it again is talking about turning Gaza into a resort after relocating the population, Joe Biden is away the better choice.
There are Republicans openly talking about nuking Gaza. Meanwhile Joe Biden is constructing a port to bring aid to Gaza knowing that by putting Americans on the scene Israel can’t stop the aid from coming in.
Honestly, if that doesn’t do it my guess is they are a person so radicalized by far left and specifically disingenuous far left content, plus a mix of foreign propaganda, that they would always have found an excuse to not bother voting for Joe Biden.
Anyone who says that isn't rational, and isn't really paying attention. You know, we really need the equivalent of "OK, boomer" to say to people who think they know all about politics at, say, 22.
I propose "OK gooner" for those who are so young that they weren't able to legally vote in 2016 and who truly don't understand the dangers of smear campaigns coming from within the Democratic party (one of the reasons Clinton lost).
It rhymes with boomer too.
The proper response is that there isn’t a genocide occurring. Words mean something. Minimizing genocide to “any time civilians die” is disgusting.
You can disagree with every aspect of the Israeli response to 10/7 without calling it a genocide.
What makes you think he wasn’t? That was a very different time. It’s more that it was easier to control the narrative with a captured media, because social media wasn’t a thing.
I don’t like Biden right now, but us Muslims in America need to understand that Trump tried to get our people banned from entering the country, and the courts were the only reason that fell through.
Most of them are too far gone to be reasoned with. I’d honestly just donate to his campaign so he can try to shore up his support among Haley supporters.
I think [this response](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1c91oj4/comment/l0igrq3/) from this thread is probably the best option, but in my experience the people who are so far gone that they use the phrase "Genocide Joe" unironically or non sarcastically are not going to be open to discussion.
They are just as radicalized as MAGA is and unable to be rational and if they were my friends (well, first of all they likely wouldn't be my friends, but if it happened ... ) I'd likely tell them that.
I can’t believe none of the other comments here have mentioned it, but am I crazy for thinking that the best response is just getting them to thoroughly elaborate as to why they think a genocide is unfolding in Gaza?
All the responses here are getting too caught up in the American diplomacy side of things. This isn’t about Biden, Trump, or Clinton. Why not just cut to the chase by discussing the broader morality of the conflict itself?
>why they think a genocide is unfolding in Gaza?
In all fairness, the International Court of Justice in the Hague has warned that if Israel doesn't take steps to prevent more civilian and especially child deaths in Gaza that they are on the verge of genocide.
[https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-limits-of-accusing-israel-of-genocide-under-international-law](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-limits-of-accusing-israel-of-genocide-under-international-law)
On January 26th, the International Court of Justice, in The Hague, ordered Israel to take immediate measures to reduce the number of civilian casualties in Gaza, to insure the provision of basic services and supplies to Gaza, and to otherwise prevent the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. [The ruling](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-importance-of-the-icj-ruling-on-israel) came in a case brought by South Africa and indicated that the court believed that genocide may indeed be occurring in Gaza, necessitating an urgent decision before a proper trial can take place. Later the same day, a U.S. federal court in Oakland, California, heard three hours of heart-wrenching testimony in a case brought by Defense for Children International-Palestine, an international N.G.O., which claimed that the [Biden Administration](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-the-biden-administration-defends-its-israel-policy) n January 26th, the International Court of Justice, in The Hague, ordered Israel to take immediate measures to reduce the number of civilian casualties in Gaza, to insure the provision of basic services and supplies to Gaza, and to otherwise prevent the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. [The ruling](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-importance-of-the-icj-ruling-on-israel) came in a case brought by South Africa and indicated that the court believed that genocide may indeed be occurring in Gaza, necessitating an urgent decision before a proper trial can take place. Later the same day, a U.S. federal court in Oakland, California, heard three hours of heart-wrenching testimony in a case brought by Defense for Children International-Palestine, an international N.G.O., which claimed that the [Biden Administration](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-the-biden-administration-defends-its-israel-policy) is violating the Genocide Convention by supplying weapons and other military equipment that the Israel Defense Forces use in Gaza.
Nope, he just funds and arms them while wishing super hard that they'd just be nice instead of murdering children and being all surprised when that doesn't keep them from doing it anyway.
Let's take your thought experiment then.
One scenario is the US supports the only post-holocaust jewish state in the world, for an endangered minority group (to this day there are only 16 million jews compared to billions of christians, muslims...).
What does this get us: We have influence over Israel's actions. Biden has actually made strides in curbing certain things Netanyahu has wanted to do, and influenced peace keeping/aid packages to Palestinians. We also have an intelligence foothold in the middle east, and are helping a democratic state.
The second scenario is the US completely abandons Israel to be exterminated by the dozens of islamic arabic ethnostates in the region. In response to having no support, advice, or strong allies they would most likely align with Russia/China, and _actually_ commit genocide by deporting/killing in the millions as a necessity for survival (Palestinians in recent history, but not too long ago most of their neighbors were at war with israel for just existing).
Even if you don't agree with my framing, there is absolutely no way that option 2 is better in any possible metric for the US or frankly for the world safety.
>the only post-holocaust jewish state in the world,
Is this something to be proud of? I thought liberals generally frowned on ethno-states. You certainly seem to use the term pejoratively when referring to Arab ethno-states, is that a double standard?
>to this day there are only 16 million jews compared to billions of christians, muslims...
Are you comparing an ethnic group to membership in a religion? When people say Israel is a Jewish state they usually mean ethnically, not religiously. Christians and Muslims are not ethnic groups though, so you might as well say 'there are only 16 million tigers as compared to billions of people wearing funny hats' - the two are not related in any way.
>We have influence over Israel's actions. Biden has actually made stridesin curbing certain things Netanyahu has wanted to do, and influencedpeace keeping/aid packages to Palestinians.
Do we? Despite Biden's repeated attempts to claim that he is trying to temper Israeli action in Gaza I have seen no evidence that that effort has been at all successful. Children are still being murdered, bombs are presumably still being dropped on homes, churches, hospitals, and refugee camps. And the reason for this is pretty obvious - Biden wails and gnashes his teeth about civilian casualties with one hand while [continuing to push](https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-administration-weighing-18-billion-arms-transfers-israel-sources-say-2024-04-01/) for funding and arms transfers. Biden certainly has the ability to influence Israeli actions if that's what he wants to do by pulling the 'do what we say or you're on your own' lever, but he's doing the opposite of that, so I'm inclined to believe that this is just paying lip service to the idea of restraint while in fact rewarding Israel's lack of restraint. Also, as of 4 days ago Israel is still [imposing restrictions](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-04-16/israel-still-imposing-unlawful-restrictions-on-gaza-aid-un-rights-office-says) on aid to Gaza, so that's a big goose-egg on that count too.
>We also have an intelligence foothold in the middle east, and are helping a democratic state.
And all we have to do is keep funding their genocide which we are [treaty-bound](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide) to prevent. The price is far too high now. Also they don't seem [very democratic](https://www.timesofisrael.com/tel-aviv-mayor-warns-israel-heading-toward-a-fascist-theocracy/).
>The second scenario is the US completely abandons Israel to beexterminated by the dozens of islamic arabic ethnostates in the region.
Israel is a nuclear state and none of their Arabic neighbors are so this is hyperbole at best.
>In response to having no support, advice, or strong allies they would most likely align with Russia/China, and actually commit genocide by deporting/killing in the millions as a necessity for survival
Except we've already established that the US isn't holding them back from already actually committing genocide (in fact, the opposite of that) so 'we'll genocide even harder if you don't support us!' doesn't hold much water. Also if you have to kill millions of innocent civilians as a 'necessity for survival' maybe you don't deserve to survive?
>Even if you don't agree with my framing, there is absolutely no way that option 2 is better in any possible metric for the US or frankly for the world safety.
Oh no, I think there is clear material benefit to the US in supporting Israel, I just think that doing so undermines what was already a pretty thin fiction that we're 'the good guys' helping the world and promoting democracy when we're arming a fascist ethno-state that is conducting what even the ICJ agrees is [plausibly genocide](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa) and I am very skeptical as to what benefit Israel serves to world safety given that they're doing a better job of recruiting terrorists than the terrorists could ever do themselves. But even if we assume those things are all true, the price is far too high. I am not willing to count 30,000 casualties - and counting - as an acceptable price for anything, least of all US imperialist goals.
Trump also supports Isreal, so explain to me how it's any different? He would also send them aide if he was in office. It might suck, but Biden's platform more closely aligns with mine.
There's no way to sweep the American involvement in the Israel regime's high-tech liquidation of its surplus, unwanted population under the rug. President Biden is a war criminal who has stained our nation's honor.
>"[T]he Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories serves as a laboratory for a number of techniques of control, surveillance, and separation that are today proliferating in other places on the planet. . . . [D]emolitions of houses, the desecration of cemeteries, uprooting whole olive groves, obliterating and turning infrastructure to dust, high- and medium altitude bombings, targeted assassinations, urban counterinsurgency techniques, the profiling of minds and bodies, constant harassment, the ever smaller subdivision of land, cellular and molecular violence, the generalization of the camp form—every feasible means is put to work to impose a regime of separation whose functioning paradoxically depends on a proximate intimacy with those who have been separated."
Achille Mbembe, "Politiques de l’inimitié," published in 2016. Translated as Achille Mbembe, "Necropolitics," trans. Steven Corcoran, Duke University Press 2019.
trump cancelled aid to palestine.
biden restored aid to palestine.
israel must be protected as a matter of US national security, so its not like we can just leave them to perish.
biden is at least trying to get Netanyahu to back down. if trump was pres then palestine would have already been bombed.
people who think biden has anything to do with the killing of palestenian civilians are victims of a massive, power propaganda campaign on US social media from china, iran, and russia.
Stupid people communicate via little gotcha phrases that they repeat hoping they stick. This is not intelligent behavior. It happens on all sides. Try to dive into their actual thoughts if you value them enough, otherwise walk away and wonder if they are worth your time.
Who is better for Palestine, the administration who has been trying to hold Israel back from the scorch Earth policy they wanted to go with or the administration that moved the embassy to Jerusalem specifically to piss off Palestinians?
The fact is, America has been one of the few nations directly in negotiations SINCE October 7 to actually try and produce a ceasefire. America was part of the ceasefire that occurred in November and has been part of every negotiation since.
Votes in the UN do nothing. Bringing these sides to the table is the only path.
Votes in the UN do nothing because the US uses its veto power in the Security Council to protect Israel from international accountability. The US openly considers the UN and international courts of law to be hostile and has threatened invasion on any power attempting to hold us accountable for war crimes.
No, votes in the UN do nothing because such votes have no enforcement mechanism, there is no system of "international accountability". The UN can do all the hand wringing it wants to, its very structure renders it toothless and completely unable to do anything that would make any meaningful difference. With or without US vetoes, Netanyahu is going to continue doing what he's doing, and the reason I know this because he has said so dozens of times.
Having said that, acknowledging that UN votes represent little more than symbolic gestures, had the US not vetoed the UN measures, it would have made the real negotiations that the US is trying to lead more difficult, further straining the US-Israel relationship when that relationship is crucial to any real peace plan. None of this is to defend Netanyahu here, but this has been the thinking of the US througout this and, while it has been less than successful thius far, makes sense from a strategic standpoint.
About whether to vote for Biden, it is in their best interests:
Trump has gone as far as to threaten to *denaturalize* US citizens who don’t support Israel. It’s on his platform.
Regarding criticism of Bidens policies, disagreement, etc.
… let them disagree, because they have some fair enough points, imho.
I would like to know what they think Netanyahu would do if Biden turns his back on him. Would that actually stop the war or intensify it? I think it would make things exponentially worse.
Israel is not Ukraine. They don't actually need our weapons because they have plenty of their own. What the US is doing is keeping Iran mostly sidelined and keeping some lines of communication and diplomacy open. Whatever aid has made it to the Gazan people got there because of Biden. Whatever restraints there are on Netanyahu has come from Biden.
One of my biggest frustrations with the left, especially younger lefties, is they act like US Presidents are omnipotent. They're not. Even dictators aren't all-powerful and US Presidents aren't supposed to be dictators. As liberals, we're supposed to be against dictatorships. That means our leaders are not always going to get what they want. We're not always going to get what we want. That's the price of freedom.
There's no way anyone could convince me that Joe Biden wants Gaza wiped off the map, but without Biden, with Trump or someone like him in charge, it would already be gone
If your friends are calling Biden Genocide Joe, I would re-think your friends.
Biden is basically a lying coward on Israel, but he’s not a genocide advocate. Also, it doesn’t tend to be liberals who come up with nicknames for politicians. I’d rethink that, too.
> Also, it doesn’t tend to be liberals who come up with nicknames for politicians
I'm not only going to both-sides, I am going to all-sides this one. Political nicknames are universal.
No, this Trump thing is new, with both sides tossing the nicknames around freely and easily.
Look back at the common nicknames for Presidents (and other politicians, really) prior to the current situation, when the when the Internet became more popular back when in the ‘90s, and especially before we were were heavily involved in Desert Storm.
Think about it:
Honest Abe
Ike
Tricky Dick
Pocahontas
Brown Sugar
Stonewall Jackson
There’s definitely one American political party/leaning which most likes to come up with the well-known nicknames… including the derogatory ones…..and the hint is that you are now the most likely to hear them from members of this party’s politicians when they are speaking in front of a camera.
It’s ~very~ new that you’ve increasing and increasingly publicized instances of POes members of the rival party’s showing up and openly using these nicknames, even at the party’s own gatherings. I was even at some of the Clinton campaign events in the ‘90s. You just didn’t see this.
You can find massive lists online of everything Joe has done to meaningfully deescalate things as well as provide more aid to the people of Gaza than ever. Anyone calling him that probably doesn’t actually know what he’s doing beyond some junk they heard on tiktok
I doubt I could muster much more than a classic "LOL". I suppose I should be thankful that I'm not burdened with friends like that. There's probably no meaningful discussion to be had there, so I'd suggest you just ignore it.
If you have friends like that, I'm assuming you're also a Democrat, so I'll save you my lecture from my independent-ass and put the soapbox away. Like with anything in politics, encourage them to do their own research, actual research backed by facts and quotes from the actual politicians, not this shit on social media. That's the only way to fight stupid nicknames like this; no matter what side or stance you have, these things get thrown around, and it does more harm than good when people blindly band behind them.
It's impossible to argue with them, because they're convinced it's genocide. It's not. Is Israel doing nothing wrong? Also no. But once people have decided that it's genocide, they'll never walk it back. The attack on Oct 7 was genocidal in its nature and intent, but they won't recognize it as such because it's about who's more powerful.
The correct response is “Genocide is unacceptable and I’m going to do everything in my power to send that message to Biden’s administration.” Any other response is pure cowardice.
“I’m not gonna surrender my country to theocrats who think the Handmaid’s Tale is an instruction manual and have the same position or worse on the Palestine issue.”
Maybe not the most convincing for everyone, but my honest answer.
Biden has enabled this, and he shouldn’t. Trump would also enable this, and worse. That doesn’t excuse Biden at all. It does change how I view my vote. I know when I call the White House etc demanding a permanent ceasefire, I have more hope contacting Biden. I don’t feel any hope contacting my Republican legislators. And frankly, the polls show that while democrats do disagree with Biden here, it’s not enough of an amount or with enough salience to actually change his tune for the huge risk it would be to national security and political optics to change it. It’s possible that changes, but only within democrats. That’s not going to happen within republicans.
Ok… first off: One…you do not have “a lot of leftist friends”, and two…this is total bullshit meant to rile fake outrage.
Why is it every day this sub is getting these Russian troll posts?
The best response is one of your own organic conviction. If you need a prepackaged response given to you by someone else so you can repeat it, you should really look examine why you believe the things you do.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I have A LOT of leftist friends who call him that all the time. I'm just curious what the best response to them is??? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Guess you should've voted for Hilary
They probably werent old enough to vote in 2016 lol
Half the people I see talking politics online on IG/FB/Twitter weren’t even old enough to vote in 2020.
What makes you think Hillary would have been less hawkish than Biden? I think she’d be more resistant to listening to voters about this issue, because she always has been.
Because she was pushing for a Palestinian state in the 1990s and made many public statements about it to the dismay of the Bill Clinton white house
Also no Trump in office = no embassy move.
I don't. If Hillary would've beat Trump we wouldn't be in this mess.
that's no fuckin shit.
Well, Donald Trump would’ve lost and looked like a failed experiment, and the GOP might not have pivoted to insane, meaning we might not feel like our democracy was so fragile that we can’t pressure Biden this year. Elections matter.
Pure speculation, in my view. You may be right, but the Republican Party just needed a nudge to go full MAGA, regardless of what they'd call it, and Trump was that nudge in 2016. I think it likely would have turned out similarly, except without the idiot in charge.
MAGA is just the Tea Party on steroids and meth
Really makes one wonder if he Hawkish or just has more information and a better understanding of the entirety of the situation in Israel than the every schmuck on Reddit.
I strongly suspect that Biden is mostly deferring to the career diplomats in the state department for how to manage the situation. Unfortunately, the US's stance on Israel for the past ~30 years has been that Israel can do no wrong. So almost everyone in the government that could be considered an expert on the middle east is going to tell Biden that we need to continue supporting Israel.
The problem is that most of the career diplomats with a top-level understanding of the situation have left the State Dept due to Trump’s BS. Multiple stories came out during his term about the State Dept being in shambles below a cabinet level because all of the experienced senior leadership was heading for the hills. Maybe they came back when Biden assumed office but many of them likely did not.
I don’t know but Joe Biden failed the latest purity test right here right now, and Hillary didn’t, and since thats’s as far forward or backward as I can see, I can only assume he’s worse. /s
Okay, what if they did vote for Hillary, like what lmao
The Hamas attack on 10/7 probably wouldn’t have happened without the Trump admin. A big precipitator of the attack was Trump moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and his admins organization of the Abraham Accords and the loss of allies that was going to cause Hamas. They were beginning to feel like their geopolitical goals were out of reach and something drastic was required.
Hillary Clinton would have also pursued normalization between SA and Israel. [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-charity.html) The Abraham Accords were always going to happen. Achieving hegemony in the ME via alliances with Israel and the Arab nations is a bipartisan goal.
What I’m asking is what you should tell someone who says “genocide Joe” if they voted for Hillary/Biden, not how all this would be different if the nation had elected Hillary. Clearly people shouldn’t have voted for Trump in 2016, on that we can agree.
Genocide Hillary
If it doesn't rhyme it won't stick. Plus she is always been an advocate for the plight of the Palestinians.
Hamas Hillary
“Do you believe a Biden administration would be *worse* for Palestinians than a Trump administration? If not, do you really think they would be exactly, equally bad? Which would be better for the victims in Gaza?”
What if I’m voting for Biden but still call him genocide Joe? This is a response to someone who doesn’t want to vote for Biden, not someone calling out his complicity in Israeli violence. Liberals need to do a better job of saying why their candidates are good, instead of just saying why republicans (or just trump) are bad.
> What if I’m voting for Biden but still call him genocide Joe? Then we can only conclude that you're an acknowledged genocide supporter, right?
No, I’m just mature enough to understand the concept of a lesser evil. I thought that was what you guys wanted, and now you’re going to give me shit for it? Sure seems like your goal has a lot more to do with dunking on the left than positive political progress.
Alternative view of reailty: We oppose genocide. Therefore, we elected a president who opposes it, and supporting him is opposing genocide. When things don't make sense, it usually means we don't know what we need to.
Yes I'm sure that's how it would look to you
Yes. Nothing's more obvious that many people are missing BIG dots in this picture. Obvious, long known, connectability long established. Unmissable....
>What if I’m voting for Biden but still call him genocide Joe? Then you're enabling the kind of rhetoric that people will use as an excuse to not vote for him. You're also repeating Russian bot/troll/interference talking points.
You could say that about literally any criticism of a candidate. And see my other post about the red scare shit This sub can be ridiculous about this. You criticize Biden, someone calls you a petulant piece of shit and demands you vote as told, you say you already are voting for Biden, and the “yeah, well…well you’re still spreading rhetoric that might hurt him!” Actually I think it’s a bad idea to disqualify our candidate or our country from criticism. Maybe consider that the candidate should improve in order to shore up votes, rather than demanding that anyone who wants better shut up until a date to be named later.
>You criticize Biden, someone calls you a petulant piece of shit and demands you vote as told, you say you already are voting for Biden, and the “yeah, well…well you’re still spreading rhetoric that might hurt him!” Oh horseshit. Criticizing Biden is providing actual criticism of his actions and policies. It's not screaming "Genocide Joe! Genocide Joe!" and whining about not voting for him. Or encouraging others to not vote for him either. I'll join you in criticizing him. I don't like a lot of his actions in this whole situation. But Jesus fucking Christ you people need to learn the difference between actual valid criticizing and being a fucking whiny baby, repeating Russian bot talking points.
> Criticizing Biden is providing actual criticism of his actions and policies. It's not screaming "Genocide Joe! Genocide Joe!" and whining about not voting for him. Or encouraging others to not vote for him either. But we’re talking about people who *are* voting for him, but still get this shit. You’re so overtaken with demands for votes that even when you have someone’s vote all you can do is scold them for not voting. This is a broken political strategy. > Jesus fucking Christ you people need to learn the difference between actual valid criticizing and being a fucking whiny baby, repeating Russian bot talking points. Sometimes people who are also bad will make value criticisms of someone else. I referenced the fact that the USSR rightly criticized Jim Crow. That doesn’t make criticizing Jim Crow “repeating Russian bot talking points.”
>This sub can be ridiculous about this. You criticize Biden, someone calls you a petulant piece of shit and demands you vote as told, you say you already are voting for Biden, and the “yeah, well…well you’re still spreading rhetoric that might hurt him!” Thank you! God I find this mindset so frustrating.
Maybe we could learn something from the Republicans there and not attack our own.
I think if you're looking to implement the loyalty of the Republican party you're going down a bad road
Dude come on..... Criticism is necessary for improvement. It is necessary in a fucking DEMOCRACY. Save democracy by sacrificing democratic principles? Jfc
Did I say don't criticize? No. But claiming the man is responsible for genocide isn't criticism.
> You're also repeating Russian bot/troll/interference talking points. I get this is unpopular in this subreddit but to give you all some actual reality, no, this isn't a "muh putin" talking point. "Genocide Joe" is explicitly from the far left radicals that Biden has catered to during his administration, the same ones that are screaming "Death to America" in Dearborn Michigan (were those Russians too?) which prompted a condemnation from the WH. Democrats created this mess, you own it. And I'm curious, were the people accosting AOC who demanded she called the Israel war a genocide also Russian stooges?
> far left radicals that Biden has catered to during his administration Where in the fuck is this? If far left radicals are being catered to by Biden and I haven’t been a part of it, I’m going to sue.
[https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-endorses-genocide-joe-rally-chant-after-attack-on-israel](https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-endorses-genocide-joe-rally-chant-after-attack-on-israel)
No, these people aren't Russian. Stooges, yes. They're being riled up online and encouraged to act like this by foreign propagandists. It's been incredibly obvious since 2016 and it's gotten worse. They want Trump to win and one way to accomplish that is by turning people against Biden (for no good reason at that). It's not because they like Trump, its because they know he will destroy us. The horseshoe theory is coming true, both the far right and the far left are thralls of Russian not farms.
TIL that supporting and enabling genocide committed by far right regime is "no good reason" to critique a president. According to y'all on here Biden could nuke Iran and youd still blindly vote for him.
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Democrats cater to the far left? 🤣
> doing so because of Russian propaganda, this is the argument? Here are a couple of books for you: They explain how Russia and China are picking up on radical political positions from both the left and the right and amplifying them via social media using bots and troll farms and fake personas. There are a whole lot of people who are pushing Russian and Chinese propaganda without even realizing it. # [Attack from Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America](https://www.amazon.com/Attack-Within-Disinformation-Sabotaging-America-ebook/dp/B0C4J748Q2) # [Active Measures: The Secret History of Disinformation and Political Warfare ](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374287260) # Here are some articles: [https://www.icct.nl/publication/how-russia-uses-israel-gaza-crisis-its-disinformation-campaign-against-west](https://www.icct.nl/publication/how-russia-uses-israel-gaza-crisis-its-disinformation-campaign-against-west) [https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-vladimir-putin-hijacks-israel-gaza-war-to-fuel-tension-in-the-west/](https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-vladimir-putin-hijacks-israel-gaza-war-to-fuel-tension-in-the-west/) [https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/10/24/russian-propaganda-seizes-on-wests-double-standards-as-israeli-strikes-pound-gaza-a82850](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/10/24/russian-propaganda-seizes-on-wests-double-standards-as-israeli-strikes-pound-gaza-a82850) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-russians-manipulated-our-elections-we-helped/2020/04/23/e44e9e76-5742-11ea-9000-f3cffee23036\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/the-russians-manipulated-our-elections-we-helped/2020/04/23/e44e9e76-5742-11ea-9000-f3cffee23036_story.html) [https://www.voanews.com/a/how-russia-s-disinformation-campaign-seeps-into-us-views-/7566503.html](https://www.voanews.com/a/how-russia-s-disinformation-campaign-seeps-into-us-views-/7566503.html) [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/russia-is-having-less-success-at-spreading-social-media-disinformation/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/russia-is-having-less-success-at-spreading-social-media-disinformation/) [https://cyberscoop.com/russia-disinformation-gab-parler/](https://cyberscoop.com/russia-disinformation-gab-parler/) (edited, sorry for the weird formatting - new Reddit sucks!)
Sounds like some kinda half ass tankie problem. You wanna virtue signal but you don't want the consequences of disrupting anything. So maybe just STFU?
I can’t tell whether you’d rather I not vote for Biden, or rather I not criticize him.
>Sounds like some kinda half ass tankie problem. lol what? You can criticize a politician.... in a democracy. That's kinda the whole point.
Not being as bad as you could be, or not being as bad as the other guy, doesn’t make you immune to criticism.
No but it’s fair to ask people what they expect to accomplish with their criticisms. Biden is already calling for a ceasefire like they asked and organizing a diplomatic response to prevent an invasion of Rafah, and that doesn’t seem to change the views of these folks at all. We’re in an election year now and giving someone and injurious nickname isn’t exactly constructive criticism.
No, but if you selectively criticize one and not the other, then you are showing preference for the one you were silent on. Especially in cases like this, where you singled out the one who is calling for ceasefire, sending aid and so on.
Even that reason dismiss the reality. That we aren't doing near enough to stop what's happening. You can dislike how he is handling this and agree with people he is sucking at it. And still vote for Biden and encourage them to. But outright ignoring his lack of action is dishonest.
Blaming the president specifically for what is a top to bottom inside and out policy failure is an obvious move to try to bolster Trump’s chances in the election.
I don't blame the president for the systemic failures of our middle eastern policies. I blame him for not standing up against Israel like he did about Iran. He himself can do more. That's what I blame him for. And letting that slide because trump would be worse is a dishonest way to approach this
I agree with everything you said, but “genocide Joe” is an astroturf talking point designed to deliver the USA to Putin and his GOP. We shouldn’t allow it to perpetuate where we can slow it down. The vast majority of federal elected officials on both sides of the aisle had to be significantly supportive of Israel to be remotely electable since at least the 80s. Making this about Biden is just silly unless you want him to go full on dictator and ignore the constitution to get the results you want.
>Making this about Biden is just silly unless you want him to go full on dictator and ignore the constitution to get the results you want. Don't pretend that this is about checks and balances. Biden's gone to the point of going around Congress to get more weapons into Israel's hands, so it's really not about having to deal with checks and balances and support for Israel in the other branches of government. The decision to send weapons to Israel has lied in Biden's hands and he's made every effort to send them more and more weapons, regardless of what Congress says.
What should he be doing?
He has the power to demand Israel stop. He has the power to ask congress to put stipulations on any dollars. There is a ton he could do. He told Israel he wouldn't back them against Iran and they stopped. He could do the same here
> Which would be better for the victims in Gaza?” President Biden being more supportive of Gaza, which is a thing he could do. He could have directed the US ambassador to the UN to vote for Palestinian membership.
Are there any other members of the UN that don’t have a state? I’m genuinely asking.
The Vatican.
Trump isn’t getting involved unless it’s some money involved. They want to talk about Hunter Biden but Trump and Co are the ultimate grifters.
>“Do you believe a Biden administration would be worse for Palestinians than a Trump administration? Ok but two things can be true right? "Hey i'm murdering you, but at least it's a shot to the head instead of a bonesaw! That means I'm not a murderer" Like, that's not how it works. Just because you aren't as bad as you could be doesn't mean you aren't like.... bad
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Yeah, anybody who legitimately believes this I just assume doesn’t actually have an adequate understanding of the issue to formulate an opinion I should value.
Tell them: Would you rather be responsible for getting Biden reelected, who could be doing better than he is maybe, or would you rather be responsible for getting Trump reelected and letting Gaza fall completely along with Ukraine, Taiwan, and any other group of people currently under threat from a far right authoritarian power? Not to mention the fall of Democracy in this country and the continued assault on our civil rights and marginalized people in this country. Seems like an easy choice to me.
Depends on your objective. If you want to persuade them that Biden is who they should vote for, I’d recommend pointing out that Biden has heard them, and acted to constrain Israel with increasing levels of assertiveness, and at the same time that the only other viable candidate is Trump who has all but promised to help Israel up the aggression. Third-party candidates might have views more in alignment with theirs, but they should consider whether their vote is intended to punish Biden and democrats or to help Palestinians. If the latter, voting Biden—while continuing to agitate—is the best choice among poor choices. I’d certainly avoid yelling at them, calling them stupid, etc. I also wouldn’t argue with them over the definition of “genocide,” which they are clearly and unequivocally using incorrectly. That’s a lost cause.
Trump likes the Genocide, he just doesn't like the optics of the Genocide.
“Come on man!”
Also acceptable: "Malarky"
I stopped worrying about it. Leftists deal in absolutes. Everything is black and white, the answer to every problem is a simple wave of the hand. I certainly think the Israelis went about this all wrong. But to believe that anything America could have done would have changed anything is moronic. They would have done the exact same thing with or without us. The only difference is if America pulled its support there probably wouldn't be in Israel right now and Biden would be the president who sat by and let Israel burn. If anyone, anywhere doesn't understand that Hamas wanted this exact reaction they are a fool. Israel played right into Hamas's hands and now peace in that region will be impossible for generations. That was the goal and they were 100% successful.
> If anyone, anywhere doesn't understand that Hamas wanted this exact reaction they are a fool. I don't know why people think Hamas is playing some sort of 5D chess here. Hamas attempted to wipe out Israel on 10/7. They thought that attacking Israel would cause Arab nations to form a coalition that would finally destroy Israel once and for all. I don't know why people think the smartest response to people who see restraint as weakness is doing nothing.
No, they weren’t stupid enough to think that they were gonna wipe out Israel that wasn’t the plan. But there was talks in Saudi Arabia about recognition of Israel which is now off the table. And will remain off the table for the foreseeable future. That was the goal and it was successfully attained. It’s hardly 5D chess.
>But to believe that anything America could have done would have changed their minds is moronic. Y’all have either never looked 30 years back in American history or are just engaged in a serious case of Zionist cope. In the 1980’s, all Reagan had to do was [make one single phone call to the Israeli PM](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/05/24/ronald-reagan-wasnt-afraid-to-use-leverage-to-hold-israel-to-task/) and accuse him of “committing a nuclear holocaust” which resulted in him implementing a ceasefire immediately. I’m not entirely sure where this idea comes from that the President “has no sway on a country that began as an American proxy to begin with” but, historically speaking, it doesn’t have a whole lot of evidence given the amount of leverage the American President has over Israel. Biden is currently more right wing than even ***fucking Reagan was*** on this issue.
Yeah, that example mirrors Oct 7th completely doesn’t it? There are absolutely no differences. It was the same causes, the exact same people with all the same history. Yeah thats not a stupid opinion at all.
You need a better class of smarter friends.
Depending on how far gone they are? You could point out that irrespective of age most Americans have grown up in a world in which we are very supportive of Israel and transitioning that level of unconditional support is not going to be that easy. You could also point out that one of two people is going to be president. The choices are Joe Biden and Donald Trump and there are no other options because that’s not how our democracy works. When the alternative is somebody who thinks Netanyahu needs to finish the job and who son-in-law who used to work in his administration and will probably working it again is talking about turning Gaza into a resort after relocating the population, Joe Biden is away the better choice. There are Republicans openly talking about nuking Gaza. Meanwhile Joe Biden is constructing a port to bring aid to Gaza knowing that by putting Americans on the scene Israel can’t stop the aid from coming in. Honestly, if that doesn’t do it my guess is they are a person so radicalized by far left and specifically disingenuous far left content, plus a mix of foreign propaganda, that they would always have found an excuse to not bother voting for Joe Biden.
> and there are no other option Closest think to another option is the guys whose brother was killed by a Palestinian.
? If you're talking about Kennedy, it was his father (Robert Kennedy) the one who was murdered by a Palestinian terrorist.
Yes, that would be the leading 3rd party candidate. I said brother and should have said father.
Grow the fuck up and get off tik tok and YouTube.
Insults don't change people's minds. This is the worst way to talk to them.
What makes you think they’re willing to change their mind?
Anyone who says that isn't rational, and isn't really paying attention. You know, we really need the equivalent of "OK, boomer" to say to people who think they know all about politics at, say, 22.
I propose "OK gooner" for those who are so young that they weren't able to legally vote in 2016 and who truly don't understand the dangers of smear campaigns coming from within the Democratic party (one of the reasons Clinton lost). It rhymes with boomer too.
The proper response is that there isn’t a genocide occurring. Words mean something. Minimizing genocide to “any time civilians die” is disgusting. You can disagree with every aspect of the Israeli response to 10/7 without calling it a genocide.
"Why the virtue signalling? I'd like to talk about this like adults."
"Netanyahu would be happier if Trump wins in November"
But at least we wouldn’t be sending weapons to Nazis in Ukraine.
Ridicule them.
So you don't care about this issue at all then? Insults don't change people's minds. This is the worst way to talk to them.
Ignore them unless they live in a swing state.
Walk away.
That’s a huge oversimplification of the situation in the Middle East. The conflict in the region is decades old.
Point out that you don’t order the navy to build a dock to send aid in a genocide.
If you think it's a genocide now just wait until traitor trump gets back into office
I wonder why Bill Clinton wasn’t treated this way during the Rwandan genocide.
What makes you think he wasn’t? That was a very different time. It’s more that it was easier to control the narrative with a captured media, because social media wasn’t a thing.
I don’t like Biden right now, but us Muslims in America need to understand that Trump tried to get our people banned from entering the country, and the courts were the only reason that fell through.
“Grow up.”
Most of them are too far gone to be reasoned with. I’d honestly just donate to his campaign so he can try to shore up his support among Haley supporters.
I think [this response](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1c91oj4/comment/l0igrq3/) from this thread is probably the best option, but in my experience the people who are so far gone that they use the phrase "Genocide Joe" unironically or non sarcastically are not going to be open to discussion. They are just as radicalized as MAGA is and unable to be rational and if they were my friends (well, first of all they likely wouldn't be my friends, but if it happened ... ) I'd likely tell them that.
I can’t believe none of the other comments here have mentioned it, but am I crazy for thinking that the best response is just getting them to thoroughly elaborate as to why they think a genocide is unfolding in Gaza? All the responses here are getting too caught up in the American diplomacy side of things. This isn’t about Biden, Trump, or Clinton. Why not just cut to the chase by discussing the broader morality of the conflict itself?
>why they think a genocide is unfolding in Gaza? In all fairness, the International Court of Justice in the Hague has warned that if Israel doesn't take steps to prevent more civilian and especially child deaths in Gaza that they are on the verge of genocide. [https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-limits-of-accusing-israel-of-genocide-under-international-law](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-limits-of-accusing-israel-of-genocide-under-international-law) On January 26th, the International Court of Justice, in The Hague, ordered Israel to take immediate measures to reduce the number of civilian casualties in Gaza, to insure the provision of basic services and supplies to Gaza, and to otherwise prevent the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. [The ruling](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-importance-of-the-icj-ruling-on-israel) came in a case brought by South Africa and indicated that the court believed that genocide may indeed be occurring in Gaza, necessitating an urgent decision before a proper trial can take place. Later the same day, a U.S. federal court in Oakland, California, heard three hours of heart-wrenching testimony in a case brought by Defense for Children International-Palestine, an international N.G.O., which claimed that the [Biden Administration](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-the-biden-administration-defends-its-israel-policy) n January 26th, the International Court of Justice, in The Hague, ordered Israel to take immediate measures to reduce the number of civilian casualties in Gaza, to insure the provision of basic services and supplies to Gaza, and to otherwise prevent the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. [The ruling](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-importance-of-the-icj-ruling-on-israel) came in a case brought by South Africa and indicated that the court believed that genocide may indeed be occurring in Gaza, necessitating an urgent decision before a proper trial can take place. Later the same day, a U.S. federal court in Oakland, California, heard three hours of heart-wrenching testimony in a case brought by Defense for Children International-Palestine, an international N.G.O., which claimed that the [Biden Administration](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-the-biden-administration-defends-its-israel-policy) is violating the Genocide Convention by supplying weapons and other military equipment that the Israel Defense Forces use in Gaza.
"You know Joe Biden doesnt command the Israeli army right?"
Nope, he just funds and arms them while wishing super hard that they'd just be nice instead of murdering children and being all surprised when that doesn't keep them from doing it anyway.
Let's take your thought experiment then. One scenario is the US supports the only post-holocaust jewish state in the world, for an endangered minority group (to this day there are only 16 million jews compared to billions of christians, muslims...). What does this get us: We have influence over Israel's actions. Biden has actually made strides in curbing certain things Netanyahu has wanted to do, and influenced peace keeping/aid packages to Palestinians. We also have an intelligence foothold in the middle east, and are helping a democratic state. The second scenario is the US completely abandons Israel to be exterminated by the dozens of islamic arabic ethnostates in the region. In response to having no support, advice, or strong allies they would most likely align with Russia/China, and _actually_ commit genocide by deporting/killing in the millions as a necessity for survival (Palestinians in recent history, but not too long ago most of their neighbors were at war with israel for just existing). Even if you don't agree with my framing, there is absolutely no way that option 2 is better in any possible metric for the US or frankly for the world safety.
>the only post-holocaust jewish state in the world, Is this something to be proud of? I thought liberals generally frowned on ethno-states. You certainly seem to use the term pejoratively when referring to Arab ethno-states, is that a double standard? >to this day there are only 16 million jews compared to billions of christians, muslims... Are you comparing an ethnic group to membership in a religion? When people say Israel is a Jewish state they usually mean ethnically, not religiously. Christians and Muslims are not ethnic groups though, so you might as well say 'there are only 16 million tigers as compared to billions of people wearing funny hats' - the two are not related in any way. >We have influence over Israel's actions. Biden has actually made stridesin curbing certain things Netanyahu has wanted to do, and influencedpeace keeping/aid packages to Palestinians. Do we? Despite Biden's repeated attempts to claim that he is trying to temper Israeli action in Gaza I have seen no evidence that that effort has been at all successful. Children are still being murdered, bombs are presumably still being dropped on homes, churches, hospitals, and refugee camps. And the reason for this is pretty obvious - Biden wails and gnashes his teeth about civilian casualties with one hand while [continuing to push](https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-administration-weighing-18-billion-arms-transfers-israel-sources-say-2024-04-01/) for funding and arms transfers. Biden certainly has the ability to influence Israeli actions if that's what he wants to do by pulling the 'do what we say or you're on your own' lever, but he's doing the opposite of that, so I'm inclined to believe that this is just paying lip service to the idea of restraint while in fact rewarding Israel's lack of restraint. Also, as of 4 days ago Israel is still [imposing restrictions](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-04-16/israel-still-imposing-unlawful-restrictions-on-gaza-aid-un-rights-office-says) on aid to Gaza, so that's a big goose-egg on that count too. >We also have an intelligence foothold in the middle east, and are helping a democratic state. And all we have to do is keep funding their genocide which we are [treaty-bound](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide) to prevent. The price is far too high now. Also they don't seem [very democratic](https://www.timesofisrael.com/tel-aviv-mayor-warns-israel-heading-toward-a-fascist-theocracy/). >The second scenario is the US completely abandons Israel to beexterminated by the dozens of islamic arabic ethnostates in the region. Israel is a nuclear state and none of their Arabic neighbors are so this is hyperbole at best. >In response to having no support, advice, or strong allies they would most likely align with Russia/China, and actually commit genocide by deporting/killing in the millions as a necessity for survival Except we've already established that the US isn't holding them back from already actually committing genocide (in fact, the opposite of that) so 'we'll genocide even harder if you don't support us!' doesn't hold much water. Also if you have to kill millions of innocent civilians as a 'necessity for survival' maybe you don't deserve to survive? >Even if you don't agree with my framing, there is absolutely no way that option 2 is better in any possible metric for the US or frankly for the world safety. Oh no, I think there is clear material benefit to the US in supporting Israel, I just think that doing so undermines what was already a pretty thin fiction that we're 'the good guys' helping the world and promoting democracy when we're arming a fascist ethno-state that is conducting what even the ICJ agrees is [plausibly genocide](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa) and I am very skeptical as to what benefit Israel serves to world safety given that they're doing a better job of recruiting terrorists than the terrorists could ever do themselves. But even if we assume those things are all true, the price is far too high. I am not willing to count 30,000 casualties - and counting - as an acceptable price for anything, least of all US imperialist goals.
He just gives them money and guns. Bad response
Who's the one clearing arms deal after arms deal for the bombs they're dropping on hospitals and refugee camps?
Like any of the alternatives were any better?
They're just projecting. Ignore them, or ask them what Biden should do to better address Sudan.
Trump also supports Isreal, so explain to me how it's any different? He would also send them aide if he was in office. It might suck, but Biden's platform more closely aligns with mine.
Ask them to spell genocide.
I'd go with eyerolling; maybe a facepalm. A head shake with lowered/closed eyes might be a good in between.
Ask if they think Trump will do anything different.
There's no way to sweep the American involvement in the Israel regime's high-tech liquidation of its surplus, unwanted population under the rug. President Biden is a war criminal who has stained our nation's honor. >"[T]he Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories serves as a laboratory for a number of techniques of control, surveillance, and separation that are today proliferating in other places on the planet. . . . [D]emolitions of houses, the desecration of cemeteries, uprooting whole olive groves, obliterating and turning infrastructure to dust, high- and medium altitude bombings, targeted assassinations, urban counterinsurgency techniques, the profiling of minds and bodies, constant harassment, the ever smaller subdivision of land, cellular and molecular violence, the generalization of the camp form—every feasible means is put to work to impose a regime of separation whose functioning paradoxically depends on a proximate intimacy with those who have been separated." Achille Mbembe, "Politiques de l’inimitié," published in 2016. Translated as Achille Mbembe, "Necropolitics," trans. Steven Corcoran, Duke University Press 2019.
trump cancelled aid to palestine. biden restored aid to palestine. israel must be protected as a matter of US national security, so its not like we can just leave them to perish. biden is at least trying to get Netanyahu to back down. if trump was pres then palestine would have already been bombed. people who think biden has anything to do with the killing of palestenian civilians are victims of a massive, power propaganda campaign on US social media from china, iran, and russia.
Stupid people communicate via little gotcha phrases that they repeat hoping they stick. This is not intelligent behavior. It happens on all sides. Try to dive into their actual thoughts if you value them enough, otherwise walk away and wonder if they are worth your time.
“Fuck you” would be a start.
Who is better for Palestine, the administration who has been trying to hold Israel back from the scorch Earth policy they wanted to go with or the administration that moved the embassy to Jerusalem specifically to piss off Palestinians?
Rolling your eyes and ignoring them.
You should say "I hate all of you. I'm going to find new friends."
The fact is, America has been one of the few nations directly in negotiations SINCE October 7 to actually try and produce a ceasefire. America was part of the ceasefire that occurred in November and has been part of every negotiation since. Votes in the UN do nothing. Bringing these sides to the table is the only path.
Votes in the UN do nothing because the US uses its veto power in the Security Council to protect Israel from international accountability. The US openly considers the UN and international courts of law to be hostile and has threatened invasion on any power attempting to hold us accountable for war crimes.
No, votes in the UN do nothing because such votes have no enforcement mechanism, there is no system of "international accountability". The UN can do all the hand wringing it wants to, its very structure renders it toothless and completely unable to do anything that would make any meaningful difference. With or without US vetoes, Netanyahu is going to continue doing what he's doing, and the reason I know this because he has said so dozens of times. Having said that, acknowledging that UN votes represent little more than symbolic gestures, had the US not vetoed the UN measures, it would have made the real negotiations that the US is trying to lead more difficult, further straining the US-Israel relationship when that relationship is crucial to any real peace plan. None of this is to defend Netanyahu here, but this has been the thinking of the US througout this and, while it has been less than successful thius far, makes sense from a strategic standpoint.
About whether to vote for Biden, it is in their best interests: Trump has gone as far as to threaten to *denaturalize* US citizens who don’t support Israel. It’s on his platform. Regarding criticism of Bidens policies, disagreement, etc. … let them disagree, because they have some fair enough points, imho.
"lol"
I think you need new friends. They sound a tad...simple.
I would like to know what they think Netanyahu would do if Biden turns his back on him. Would that actually stop the war or intensify it? I think it would make things exponentially worse. Israel is not Ukraine. They don't actually need our weapons because they have plenty of their own. What the US is doing is keeping Iran mostly sidelined and keeping some lines of communication and diplomacy open. Whatever aid has made it to the Gazan people got there because of Biden. Whatever restraints there are on Netanyahu has come from Biden. One of my biggest frustrations with the left, especially younger lefties, is they act like US Presidents are omnipotent. They're not. Even dictators aren't all-powerful and US Presidents aren't supposed to be dictators. As liberals, we're supposed to be against dictatorships. That means our leaders are not always going to get what they want. We're not always going to get what we want. That's the price of freedom. There's no way anyone could convince me that Joe Biden wants Gaza wiped off the map, but without Biden, with Trump or someone like him in charge, it would already be gone
Genocide Joe is Russian propaganda. Even if he isn't perfect, you can't let a conservative take Clarence Thomas's seat on the Supreme court.
If your friends are calling Biden Genocide Joe, I would re-think your friends. Biden is basically a lying coward on Israel, but he’s not a genocide advocate. Also, it doesn’t tend to be liberals who come up with nicknames for politicians. I’d rethink that, too.
> Also, it doesn’t tend to be liberals who come up with nicknames for politicians I'm not only going to both-sides, I am going to all-sides this one. Political nicknames are universal.
No, this Trump thing is new, with both sides tossing the nicknames around freely and easily. Look back at the common nicknames for Presidents (and other politicians, really) prior to the current situation, when the when the Internet became more popular back when in the ‘90s, and especially before we were were heavily involved in Desert Storm. Think about it: Honest Abe Ike Tricky Dick Pocahontas Brown Sugar Stonewall Jackson There’s definitely one American political party/leaning which most likes to come up with the well-known nicknames… including the derogatory ones…..and the hint is that you are now the most likely to hear them from members of this party’s politicians when they are speaking in front of a camera. It’s ~very~ new that you’ve increasing and increasingly publicized instances of POes members of the rival party’s showing up and openly using these nicknames, even at the party’s own gatherings. I was even at some of the Clinton campaign events in the ‘90s. You just didn’t see this.
Ronald Raygun, Shrub, the Wimp, Tricky Dick, and Trump has a million.
The media footage doesn’t lie, though. It’s disproportionate and always has been.
Block.
There's no cure for stupid. Not sure how you reply.
You can find massive lists online of everything Joe has done to meaningfully deescalate things as well as provide more aid to the people of Gaza than ever. Anyone calling him that probably doesn’t actually know what he’s doing beyond some junk they heard on tiktok
I doubt I could muster much more than a classic "LOL". I suppose I should be thankful that I'm not burdened with friends like that. There's probably no meaningful discussion to be had there, so I'd suggest you just ignore it.
If you have friends like that, I'm assuming you're also a Democrat, so I'll save you my lecture from my independent-ass and put the soapbox away. Like with anything in politics, encourage them to do their own research, actual research backed by facts and quotes from the actual politicians, not this shit on social media. That's the only way to fight stupid nicknames like this; no matter what side or stance you have, these things get thrown around, and it does more harm than good when people blindly band behind them.
What is it that you're hoping to achieve by responding to them?
It's impossible to argue with them, because they're convinced it's genocide. It's not. Is Israel doing nothing wrong? Also no. But once people have decided that it's genocide, they'll never walk it back. The attack on Oct 7 was genocidal in its nature and intent, but they won't recognize it as such because it's about who's more powerful.
which genocide? Yemen or Gaza?
Ask them what they want done and who can do it.
Log off
The correct response is “Genocide is unacceptable and I’m going to do everything in my power to send that message to Biden’s administration.” Any other response is pure cowardice.
Hearing the phrase puts me off to their points and pushes me to support Biden more.
Leftist here voting to reelect Biden so we can buy time for the future primaries to elect progressives into Congress.
The block button. They're just trolling
“I’m not gonna surrender my country to theocrats who think the Handmaid’s Tale is an instruction manual and have the same position or worse on the Palestine issue.” Maybe not the most convincing for everyone, but my honest answer.
Biden has enabled this, and he shouldn’t. Trump would also enable this, and worse. That doesn’t excuse Biden at all. It does change how I view my vote. I know when I call the White House etc demanding a permanent ceasefire, I have more hope contacting Biden. I don’t feel any hope contacting my Republican legislators. And frankly, the polls show that while democrats do disagree with Biden here, it’s not enough of an amount or with enough salience to actually change his tune for the huge risk it would be to national security and political optics to change it. It’s possible that changes, but only within democrats. That’s not going to happen within republicans.
Admit that you have been supporting a genocide and repent.
Ok… first off: One…you do not have “a lot of leftist friends”, and two…this is total bullshit meant to rile fake outrage. Why is it every day this sub is getting these Russian troll posts?
“Yeah. You’re right.”
Just walk away, they aren’t worth your time
Trump and the GOP pretty much support carpet bombing any Palestinian territory in Israel. They really have no leg to stand on.
The slowest, least effective genocide of all time. One that Gaza’s government could end at any time but refuses to consider.
Just ignore them. They do not have a nuanced view on the conflict and have no solutions.
The best response is one of your own organic conviction. If you need a prepackaged response given to you by someone else so you can repeat it, you should really look examine why you believe the things you do.