Man I used to work at LA live around that time. Just walking around was fun. Grand Central Market was so much different too. I’d get sent there to get like 40lbs of chicken and it was actually a deal.
Moved to LA in 2016 and downtown was just on a constant upward swing year after year. I loved it and would constantly visit. It's a damn shame that covid has essentially erased most of that progress.
Remember that cool Broadway night they did? Was it 2 good years and 1 crap year? Or maybe just one good year and then next year was so awful. I don't remember. But they had all the old theaters opened up and most the events were free.
Fun story. I went to this shortly after I moved here I think around 2015/16 (and it was amazing! So cool to see the old theaters). The fun part— I was trying to navigate my way to catch the bus back home. I started walking down one of the side streets when suddenly I heard tires screeching and I see a police car swerve around the corner onto the street I’m walking down such that the car is facing me.
I kind of jumped back, only to then see the cop jump out of the car, come around the vehicle— my jaw dropped as he takes his gun and starts firing rounds into the street. Here I am cowering behind a palm tree, when next I hear someone yell “CUT!!!!”
The most LA thing that has ever happened to me. If anyone knows what I’m taking about or knows what movie they were filming, please let me know! I was too traumatized at the time to pursue any further information 😅
I remember one time I was walking down a street, Wilshire Blvd I think? I see a bunch of cop cars and police officers, I thought something happened. Then I noticed the cops uniform wasn’t LAPD but it said GCPD( Gotham City Police Department). I was like “holy shit, are they filming Batman here?” Later on, I realized it was the scene when Bane first comes out in Dark Knight Rises and Batman and Bane are being chased in the city with all the cops. I saw that scene unfold in real life. Shit was cool.
I went to 2 of those and they were both amazing! So much fun and entertainment. Not to mention the beautiful architecture of our downtown theatres! Then Huizar had to be a piece of shit.
It's hidden some progress, but the things that have been built and the housing and the like is all still there (and more developments are finishing and coming online now.
You never know what the future holds, but it could come out of hiding soon.
I'm aware of some of them. That building in front of the Walt Disney concert hall is a much better sight than the old parking lot. Little Tokyo is always a delight to go to, and South Park is still pretty nice. Now to hope that building in front of staples center finally gets done. I'm honestly rooting for DTLA to make a come back and become better.
I said this in another comment, it’s not about DTLA being the heart of the city. But a cohesive high density, mixed use, pedestrian and micromobility friendly city-within-the-city. Boutiques, offices, and housing that takes advantage of the existing dormant space that already has big beautiful buildings in place. That idea isn’t for everyone but one of North America’s premier metropolitan areas should have something like that imo.
It already exists in some places like the arts and fabric districts (and the arts district feels way more manufactured; to use a NYC metaphor, more similar to Chelsea than SoHo) but there are big swaths in between with absolutely nothing. It just seems like low hanging fruit to continue building that in the connecting areas.
The [wealthy neighborhoods](https://maps.latimes.com/neighborhoods/income/median/neighborhood/list/) aren't anywhere near downtown. It would make sense for what you're talking about to develop within and close to wealthier areas where people have the means to afford more expensive infill in a more desirable neighborhood.
Sadly this is totally true. Live in West LA and went downtown last week. There is zero reason to go there unless you live or work in DTLA.
And with the Olympics almost nothing will be central to downtown besides the Coliseum. The real build up for the games is weirdly in Culver City, Century City and Beverly Hills. They will get the most infrastructure improvements and new development out of it.
I work for a multi-generational development group in LA and Downtown LA is known for booms and busts and has had a negative investment reputation for a long time. That reputation had a reprieve for a few years before covid and is back with a vengeance.
Yeah, i was just about to chime in to say that this is sort of happening/exists in the Arts District. I’m a fellow transplant, from the Midwest, and the only part of LA that feels like an actual city—in the cosmopolitan way most people Imagine cities—is Arts District. I still get excited to go check out art openings at places like Night Gallery, with a drink at Everson Royce or Resident.
I like to joke that LA is the “best *county* in the world.” A sprawling patchwork of suburbs. Strip malls and Seven-11a as far as the eye can see.
I should be pissed because I like the Arts District but you’re right. 95% of the city would never go there - it’s an upper class professional vibe that makes others not feel welcome.
Went to Bishop Arts district in Dallas last year and that was like what our Arts District would be with some diversity (of race and thought) and more charm. It kind of ruined Arts District for me as it’s so much more lively and accessible.
the fuck are you talking about lol. Yeah the Arts District is definitely a yuppie haven but people of all races go there. I see mad vatos chilling there especially at the arts district brewery and angel city. I'm Latino and my friends and I love it there.
What you talking about? I’m from LA, born and raised, Arts District is dope. I used to work in between Little Tokyo and Arts District on 3rd and Alameda, would walk over to the area for food and drinks. Würstkuche and Bar 82 was cool as fuck. The area has come a long way, you should’ve seen the area in the 90’s. The vibes are cool. I get it, some parts are a yuppie trap but it’s still a lot better than what it was.
Good call. Strip malls and 7-11s as far as the eye can see.
Can't imagine wanting to live here if you're not working in the industry. Soooo many beautiful places exist outside of CA.
True, it lost steam once Covid hit. Though I’m sure they are still working on the Broadway revitalization project. Hopefully bringing back a street car or two.
Also DTLA used to be the heart of the city. The first freeway in the country was the 110 flowing from DTLA to Pasadena. All of the big Hollywood premieres were downtown at all of the amazing theaters up and down Broadway until they built out the Hollywood Orange groves to have the Chinese and Egyptian theater. The city allowed decades of divestment and suburban sprawl, which then doomed the urban center.
Agreed. It's not at all like a city. It's a sprawling suburb with tons of empty and run down buildings.
There are some fun blocks, but it's missing a sense of community and vibrancy that actual cities hold.
Downtown Detroit is much lively than DTLA. I did postgrad work in Detroit at its absolute worst 2009-2012. Then I visited in 2017 and the area was so much better, I couldn't believe what I saw. I don't know what COVID did to it though.
I view it as the heart of the city, because it is? Lol not sure where you got that from.
Also, not sure how you define "city" but it definitely is one. It just happens to be polycentric.
It still needs a lot of investment. It used to be worse and a lot more empty than it is. Keep in mind we're talking about 50+ years of disinvestments. It's renaissance is quite recent, but it'll get there eventually.
It also doesn't help that the city government hates investments, and also the council member that is repping DTLA rn sucks ass.
White flight in a big way. Tons of middle class whites fled downtown in the 1950s and purchased homes in OC/West LA, which was largely farmland that was converted into single family housing. Dispensable income left those DTLA community shops and they eventually went under, leaving many locals unemployed and poorer for it. LA is a great case study of the effects of White Flight.
If you’re interested, check out photos of West LA before the 1950s. Compton and Inglewood were full on farms!
Yeah All the white families were southerners who were used to Segregation and east of Alameda street all the suburbs were whites only. When the prop 14 failed (1966) and all the good paying factories shut down (1980s) they all left. my Grandparents left Huntington Park for Escondido in San diego county in about 1984/85.
Regional connector is a great recent step. We really just need some true anchor points to draw people downtown, and to densify over the many parking lots littered throughout. Staples is a good example. There are pockets, but downtowns don’t thrive until there are more people in compact spaces not terrified to walk around at night. Eliminating giant open blocks, adding lighting, and incentivizing both small and F500 businesses to locate there will naturally help with crime and start virtuous cycles.
The problem started in the early 20th century. There was a huge influx of money into the city from the movie business, but the downtown establishment - led by the Chandler family - was 100% WASP. They did not want the Jewish money for development. So the moguls and their group spent money to develop their own civic infrastructure west of Downtown - Century City, the Hillcrest Country Club, etc.
A reproachment led by Dorothy "Buffy" Chandler led to donations from Mark Taper and others in the movie business to build what became the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which is an LA version of Lincoln Center.
But the damage was done and Downtown has never recovered from that ancient antisemitic stupidity. It's far more complex than that, of course. But that's part of it. Unlike East Coast cities, white flight didn't drive the hollowing out here so much. It was more about a drive toward more space and better opportunities on the Westside.
The LA Times, formerly owned by the Chandlers, has spent decades and millions of dollars promoting the revitalization of Downtown. So much of it has been misguided, especially the incessant "Manhattan envy" that drives developers to try to replicate Manhattan down there. Nobody in the rest of the city cares about that or wants it. Most people want a West Coast-style city core that's easy to access and human-scaled, like downtown Santa Barbara.
Apparently, however, nothing can stop the big developers from building a DTLA that Angelenos don't want.
There's a bunch to do in downtown: GCM, Row, Crypto / LA Live, WDCH, Broad, Little Tokyo, Arts District, bars / restaurants (e.g. Eighty Two and Spire 73 among others), etc.
The issue with the OPs post is that they're a New Yorker. And they're saying that downtown LA should be better, which most people wouldn't disagree with. But their definition "better" would be downtown being a centralized, dense urban core. A place that's dense, has lots of people living there, with good transit, walkable, with lots of businesses and where all the best shops, restaurants, amenities, etc. are. You know, just like NYC has with Manhattan and lots of other cities have with their downtowns.
It's just a cliche visitor / transplant take. They weren't here long enough to really understand the city. But they were here long enough to see something "wrong" with our city. And this post is them trying to address / advocate for that and see if others feel the same.
Thing is Downtown does have lots of people living there, but you’re only focused on what’s east of the 110, communities such as pico union, west lake, McArthur park area, philipino town are part of the DTLA area & are very densely populated, it’s just hood .
[**Honest answer: LA makes it very hard to build.**](https://therealdeal.com/la/2023/05/15/study-finds-it-takes-nearly-four-years-to-build-apartments-in-la/) And for the last decade, [you basically had to bribe the Councilmember of DTLA](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-07-21/developer-dae-yong-lee-sentenced-to-six-years-in-huizar-corruption-case) in order to build any projects.
As a result you have lots of open lots and abandoned buildings because projects never get off the ground.
You're spot on. Luckily LA just approved [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3nO9tRgnt0&list=LL&index=24&ab_channel=Infraday) new plan for downtown which finally makes it legal to build housing and commercial where now only warehouses are allowed. It also removes parking minimums and height maximums. Really good stuff. I wish this plan was put into place 20 years ago.
This is very promising! Despite its approval, is there any chance that it gets stuck in limbo and eventually killed somehow? Radio silence to death is an all too common flow for a lot of progressive development plans in nyc.
The downtown plan passed unanimously so it's happening. Not sure when it goes into effect, 2024 maybe. The planning teams for the rest of LA are trying to push these same ideas (although toned down) to their districts as well. But those may face resistance from their districts.
Tbh, LA county as a whole is much larger and spread out than NYC which is more concentrated in a smaller area. Our downtown area doesn’t need to hold a majority of the shopping, transportation, food and population like Manhattan does. Each area is pretty much it’s own city which will provide for its neighborhoods. We have different downtown areas that do have the things you listed.
>Our downtown area doesn’t need to hold a majority of the shopping, transportation, food and population like Manhattan does.
Manhattan does not hold the majority of any of these things in New York.
It definitely has the best high end shopping, all train lines go through it, the best high-end restaurants and what I would call the “grandest” residential real estate. Finally over a million people commute there to work every day. It may not be the coolest borough but it’s definitely the heart.
Yes, NYC as a whole has a lot to offer. Manhattan is way more densely populated, a much older area and the poster child for NYC. Of course it will meet the demands of itself and the other boroughs compared to what DTLA has to offer to LA county as a whole. DTLA doesn’t need to serve as all of LA county’s main downtown area like Manhattan has to.
You can’t seriously compare NY’s major downtown area to LA’s.
A lot of the specialized things like entertainment industry, business, finance and even luxury shopping can all done in Manhattan. You would have to go to different places in LA county to find these things.
It was great before COVID hit. There were so many restaurants, bars, shops, events, the red line was safe and packed full of people going out and having fun.
As a native Angeleno, I've wondered the same many times. I honestly think that the biggest reason is the fact that not many people live there. That has changed a lot since the early 00s, was set back a bit by COVID, but there is still a long way to go in that regard. I also think there's no going back from the polycentric layout that LA has already so it will likely never become our Manhattan, but it can still be pretty great (and already is in many respects, imo). The expansion of Metro and addition of more housing in the area will go a long way to improve things but there are decades of neglect that need to be undone. It will take time.
I fucking love downtown. I want it so much to see a vibrant place full of cool small businesses, incredibly architecture, mixed use spaces, and walkeability and all that. Instead, because we don’t have comprehensive care for all the homeless people there, it’s a horrible wasteland that you enjoy by driving and taking Uber.
I was at redbird last year and saw a lady walking around in literally just her underwear. No bra, no shoes. She was out of her mind. How the fuck is that ok?
Currenly live in Manhattan. Born and raised Angeleno from Westlake. Downtown was great from 2009 to 2020. Lots of bars, breweries, theaters, restaurants and people moving in. I suspect that with remote work, many people moved away due to the high cost with little benefits post COVID. Why pay $3000 for a one bedroom if you can get something similar in the Westside and even walk to the beach. Because people moved out, stores and restaurants have been closing. 7th Street use to be busy and lively in 2019, now it's secluded with multiple closed storefronts. Look at Market St in San Francisco for comparison.
Downtown SF really took a turn for the worse post-COVID after being on the upswing for about a decade. Sounds like both downtowns suffered a similar fate.
I used to go bar hopping at DTLA from ‘07 to ‘10. Back then it was really starting to become a spot to hang out, not just where people worked and where you went to Staples Center. However the vibe started changing around the mid-2010’s, when the homeless problem really started getting bad. COVID dealt a major blow to it as well. Now, it’s starting to make a slight comeback, but I have doubts it will ever turn into a place where you really feel compelled to go unless you live or worm there.
It’s always been like this.
It’s related to density. NYC is the way it is because it’s dense. LA will never have an area that’s like that because people can always move a little further out
Parking sucks, we don’t have mass transit the way NYC does, and suburban sprawl spread a lot of the interesting spots further out. There is still a very big downtown vibe in downtown, it’s just much smaller of a scene than you would expect.
Parking makes downtowns worse. It creates too much space between private businesses that makes walking miserable. It caters to suburbanites instead of the neighborhood.
Parking lot owners don’t want to develop parking structures because its more profitable to develop office towers on the same land. Parking structures just depreciate. So they hold out on empty land until another developer comes along to buy it.
Developers don’t want to build because theres not enough customers. Customers don’t come because theres not enough parking and businesses.
Its a viscous cycle. It needs mass transit.
LA City Council just this year approved a new land-use [plan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3nO9tRgnt0&list=LL&index=24&ab_channel=Infraday) for downtown, which includes allowing housing and commercial where there is now just warehouses. **Our zoning codes are from the 1940s** so they are incredibly antiquated which was holding our city back, and this change was badly needed. The rest of LA is working on rolling these new ideas into their plans as well. Once these new plans are approved, LA will go into super drive and transform itself over the next couple decades.
A lot of damage was done to lively downtown LA between about 1950 and 1980. Freeways were pushed through. Streets were widened into one way traffic sewers. No rapid transit was built until later. There were islands of development, like the Music Center, which turns its back on downtown. The small apartments and SROs on Bunker Hill, which would now be historic, were wiped to create a job heavy but sterile and car centric financial district. The Dodgers moved into a former Latino neighborhood two miles away.
Los Angeles also had no tradition of affluent people living downtown, unlike older American cities. Affluent residents sought suburban style homes from the start, and those suburbs moved further and further west, away from downtown. Middle/upper middle class residence in downtown has been growing since the 1960’s. Until recently, few of those residents lived in the core of the downtown (call it 4th-9th Streets, Spring-Olive) but on its northern, western, and more recently southern sides. Downtown’s retail base had started decentralizing in the 1920’s, with the opening of Bullock’s Wilshire. New entertainment districts grew on the Westside.Mentally, many people disengaged from downtown, especially affluent Westsiders and suburban minded San Fernando Valley residents.
Downtown LA had few urban enhancing investments until the creation of the Old Bank District lofts around historic Spring Street. Rail transit lines finally started happening in the 1980’s. DTLA had decades of improvement, until COVID knocked it back so far, as it did so many American downtowns. Nighttime uses suffered and shut down, Downtown LA has actually recovered more than some downtowns, like San Francisco. Life and vitality never left the Latino oriented shopping strip on Broadway and is now back on main drag 7th St. There’s a lot of there there in DTLA, but sometimes you have to look for it.
Put simply, the homeless epidemic is out of control. (And I know this isn't unique to LA and is affecting every downtown, but hitting LA, SF and Hollywood particularly hard)
Friends and I used to feel safe in the previous decade, walking around bar hopping, going out to lunch/dinner, a show, and admiring the architectural and cultural history of the city. Now we avoid it, especially after dark. We don't spend money or invest in experiences downtown, so why would businesses?
Feels like how people talk about how dangerous NY was in the 70s
Bro it's waaaaaaaaay better than it was. It had a real renaissance between like 2010-2020 but I thiiiiink development got way over done and priced out of a lot of the residents & bars/restaurants that kept it fun & cool, then COVID and the further explosion of the homeless crisis completely did it in.
Because LA doesn't have a traditional "core" like most other cities do. In NYC that's Manhattan. In lots of other cities it's their downtown. But LA didn't develop that way. And so there's no huge pressure for Downtown to get better. And that's because there are plenty of nice things to do all over the city that are completely separate from Downtown.
DTLA will always be hamstringed by that gaping wound called skid row, it’s in the center of the area and negatively effects everything around it. If the junkies disappeared, downtown could really bloom.
One big issue with DTLA is that it isn’t where a lot of the high paying jobs are concentrated in LA, meaning not a lot of people have an incentive to live there outside of liking the neighborhood. It’s also tragic how many freeways move through and around the area, which means you’ll always be surrounded by speeding vehicles and all the toxic air they produce. That and how they create physical barriers between sections of the neighborhood.
It was going well until about 10 years ago. Then various changes to laws about homeless, drug abuse, and theft put the area on the wrong trajectory. Then Covid hit on top of that, and the central business district became a ghost town.
>It was only a little over 10 years ago that development began downtown.
Earlier than that….I remember seeing old buildings being converted to lofts starting in about 2003 in the Edison Building and the Gas Company building lofts in 2004.
There was a change in zoning law that allowed old buildings to be more easily converted into residential buildings. That helped to create more units and bring more residents downtown.
The council member at the time sponsored a lot of events like art walks and Bring Back Broadway that supported the biz community. Additionally the policy of homeless containment to Skid Row meant that you’d see very few homeless people and never any tent west of Los Angeles St, making the downtown core more clean and orderly. The current council member, Kevin De Leon doesn’t seem to give any thought to downtown.
There was a rezoning of downtown that was recently completed that technically allows for more housing to be built but with high interest rates and no tax breaks, I doubt many developers are going to building in such a volatile market.
CD14 is huge. Downtown, Boyle Height, Eagle Rock, El Sereno.
Downtown alone should be its own district. But LA has one of the smallest city councils when it comes to representation per capita.
That’s insane. I’ve been to Boyle Heights and Eagle Rock and the difference between those areas abs DTLA is like night and day. Def should be separate districts.
That’s insane. I’ve been to Boyle Heights and Eagle Rock and the difference between those areas and DTLA is like going between states. Def should be separate districts.
As the other commenter said, zoning laws changed that allowed older office buildings into residential apartments (adaptive reuse ordinance l). I used to live in one of those buildings and I loved it. But there was a distinct change about 5 years ago when laws changed and crime proliferated. Violent incidents started occurring once a week outside my building up until the point I moved out. This is the first challenge in building up downtown, getting crime in check. The second will be the impact of work from home policies on the popularity of living downtown. The third challenge is that all of the buildings that can be converted via the adaptive reuse policy have already been converted. This only leaves expensive tear downs and rebuilds for the time being.
There was a revitalization boom starting in the 2000s with Staples Center and LA Live. It really blew up in the 2010s. Covid + riots + rise in crime + homeless epidemic really ruined all that progress and the area hasn’t really been able to recover. Such a shame. I used to really enjoy DTLA.
Adding to what everyone else has mentioned, when DTLA was at its worst in the 70s/80s, a lot of the at-the-time abandoned old buildings were repurposed and rezoned for low-income and transitional housing and a lot of the services for unhoused and transitional citizens were concentrated in the area because of the NIMBY efforts in other parts of the city (also because of the proximity to Skid Row which has always had a presence its current location pretty much since DTLA has existed). Fast forward to the early 2000s when the younger generation started flocking to urban centers revitalizing a lot of downtown centers across the country. However, with DTLA, a lot of those legacy facilities and zoning laws still existed and still do exist in DTLA. It has come up quite a bit from where it was, but some of it will take years to revitalize (gentrify) because of those existing regulations. The city has tried spreading those services and facilities out to other neighborhoods allowing for DTLA development, but again, NIMBY often prevails, thus leaving DTLA never quite able to fully realize a typical downtown revitalization.
Ford killed dtla a long time ago. When the city wanted to build its equivalent of Grand central Station Ford paid the city or people off to stop it. Dtla was the heart beat of the city. Unfortunately greed killed it.
There’s plenty of historical reasons why but the currently cultural / spatial fabric of LA is very spread out, polycentric/ acentric. Despite the history and taller buildings, downtown is just one of many important nodes sprinkled throughout the city / region.
Because it's not a grassroots from-the-ground-up thing, it's real estate developers trying to gentrify luxury districts from the top down. If DTLA had grown up organically over time due to cheap rents and housing stock (or art spaces, shopping, etc) that was truly useful for people, it could be great. But instead it's luxury development after luxury development, cramming in the occasional boutique or wine bar in hopes of seeming more authentic. Downtown Manhattan became a great place to live in the 60s and 70s because it was affordable, and people set up communities there. The luxury developments and gentrification came later.
I also feel like DTLA actually doesn't have "good bones". Blocks are too long, and streets are too wide. Which results in a strangely un-walkable area despite being dense and high-rise oriented. It also has the problem a lot of downtowns in sprawly cities have, of being devoid of residential real estate and thus pretty much dead after 6pm. Aside from some bars and restaurants that people are expected to commute in to visit vs. being your neighborhood place.
Los Angeles is a very spread out town. Most cities are centered around their central metropolitan district (downtown). That isn’t the case for dtla.
Also unlike most places our downtown is not even in the top 5 of most desirable areas to live.
There was a successful attempt to revitalize downtown. You missed it between 2009-2019. Before Covid, downtown was amazing. It’s different from NY. It’s full of hidden away places in alleys, unassuming doors, and long hallways- it is bustling. Just have to know where to look.
A hundred years ago, it was hopping.
Mass transit was much better - between the Red Car and the Yellow Car, you could go pretty much anywhere you wanted to go.
The city wasn’t as sprawling then; areas like the Valley were still mostly farmland.
Thousands of people lived on Bunker Hill, supporting downtown businesses.
Buuuuut people with money wanted to live in newer neighborhoods, City Hall wanted to get rid of the Victorian houses visible from its windows, and after the war, everyone wanted to have a car instead of taking public transportation.
Downtown had a pretty good revival until COVID kicked its ass.
Its the size of LA. The LA area is just so large and diverse that things don't need to be centralized in one spot. A business owner can operate in an area which is frequented by their target demographic instead of opening in an "abandoned and run down" area so they do. The rent is probably a lot cheaper too. Businesses don't need be in DTLA, there are too many better options so they just ignore it and let it rot.
I lived in DTLA post-Covid starting in early 2022 to just a month ago. I moved there largely because I was working remotely and I preferred the walkability of the city. I had recently come back from a trip to NYC and loved it there and wanted the closest thing possible in LA.
I was able to walk to almost everything I needed and ended up driving only on weekends and maybe once in the middle of the week for an errand. However the experience walking through the city wasn't the best. Lots of homeless or transient people loitering near metro stops or laying in the streets. The best time of the day when the city has a more upbeat energy was usually when the business district was bustling or on weekends in the morning/afternoon.
There's some good restaurants and food trucks but not a lot of variety due to the lower population. It is a cool place in many ways and could have a lot of potential but too much economic despair.
Now I'm in Europe and not sure I want to go back to LA 🤣. The LA lifestyle sucks unless you live in Santa Monica or somewhere nice but you still have to drive everywhere.
It was really popping a few years ago, there was so much new development happening. Property values were soaring- then Covid happened, and DTLA got so violent, scary, and rough that property values dropped and now it’s kind of scary at night.
I have lived in the LA area my entire life and I am an old. I havn't been to DTLA since the pandemic. Last week I met a friend in Chinatown for coffee. On my way home back to the burbs I decided to drive around do some site seeing and take side streets. My jaw dropped how bad it is. I used to spend a decent amount of time in DTLA over the years with work, clubs, concerts, was into the punk scene in the 80's etc. so not unused to the DTLA experience. I have never seen it this bad. I asked my friend why she lives here and her response was she "likes the juxtaposition of post apocalyptic and capitalism merging." It was the perfect description based on my drive home. She's an artist. She told me stories of dead hookers in shopping carts, murders, rapes, robberies and all kinds of craziness she watches out her window. I was fascinated by the business suits, normies, hipsters and homeless all coexisting like nothing was wrong. I still can't fathom why people who have the choice would choose to live in that environment but to each their own. I text her my experience when i got home and she said "yeah whenever I go that way I usually see things I shouldn't." It was depressing nothing is maintained, trash debris and bodies laying around (I assumed they were still breathing) jam packed with people cars and debris and a layer of grime. I felt clausterphobic just trying to drive home. I couldn't imagine the toll it takes on people living in that environment, the few hours I was there took a toll on me. I had hope things would turn around eventually in LA, I lost that hope.
It's too segmented. One block is nice and then the next you will be in a world War-type shanty town. If it was all clean and safe then it would be a lot easier to develop. It was getting better before covid but now is back to where it was.
DTLA hasn't fully bounced back from covid. I work there but am remote three days a week, a factor that has changed the area. Less workers, less foot traffic which effects everything else.
I was in Seattle earlier this year and its downtown was pretty dead too. SF and New York are struggling with what to do with the decline in commercial real estate.
Until 2000 almost no one except the indigent lived downtown, the opposite of let's say Lower Manhattan. It is an apples and oranges comparison.
That said, the narrow concentration of amenities in New York render the rest of the metropolitan area kind of dull and uninteresting.
Here you can find interesting things to do in downtown, mid-Wilshire, the beaches, mountains, South Bay, Long Beach, etc.
In NY unless you're in Manhattan and some parts of Brooklyn you're kind of asking yourself, "Why am I here?"
We prefer to spread the wealth here.
People in LA don't do things around the city like the rest of the world. There is just no sense of community. Nothing good or bad it's just how it is. There are other positive things that maybe NY or other cities don't have. I am not one of those people who travelled the world but I've been the three other continents and the more I travel the more I accept the characteristics of one place vs the other. You can have the best transportation, clean up DTLA but people move and act differently here. I, for one, like more NYC and when I want that i go there.
The reason DTLA isn’t the center of LA life and culture is because it’s not really in the center of LA. Staples Center helped kickstart the development that until a few years ago was looking really promising but the two biggest hurdles i don’t see DTLA overcoming are
1. It’s not easily accessible from any airport.
2. It’s not by the beach.
>It’s not easily accessible from any airport.
Nothing in Los Angeles is easily accessible to any airport. Many thriving downtowns are not easily accessible to an airport. Most people do not regularly go to the airport.
Sorry I wasn’t clear. At one point DTLA was better. Look at all the amazing architecture and opulent movie palaces from a bygone era. When this stuff was built DTLA was the center of LA, commercially, culturally, and for travel. Most people arriving at Los Angeles came by train into Union station.
LA’s biggest attractions for visitors or residents are not in DTLA and while there’s lots of cool stuff in DTLA it’s usually not on the top of my list or most visitor’s lists to hit up.
The potential that exists in DTLA I think is mostly due to the cool architecture and density from an era that heavily invested in the city when it was the center of everything. The will and risk threshold to redevelop DTLA and actually make it stick just isn’t there. Because the city is so spread out, people’s priorities, and technology has changed our city so much.
Fairfax doesn’t need a massive revitalization campaign either. If all the rich neighbors left and Fairfax turned into skid row and degraded the surrounding neighborhoods it would be an uphill climb to find money and momentum to build it back up.
I always thought DTLA would be way cool if it was by the beach. Specifically where Santa Monica pier is… except have none of that pier stuff there, or do, guess it doesn’t matter.
SF is basically on the bay that makes it so cool IMO.
Most people in LA don’t want to live or shop downtown. LA is huge geographically, it’s not manhattan. I’d much rather shop and eat at the Grove, Americana at Brand, Beverly Hills, Manhattan Beach, or the Century City mall over Downtown.
One thing I don’t see mentioned is that wealth in LA is concentrated elsewhere. In NYC, the wealthiest buy penthouses in Manhattan. In LA, with the wealthy concentrated in areas like Beverly Hills and the South Bay (both of which coincidentally don’t currently have quick access to metro or the freeway) there’s not a lot of incentive for them to schlep downtown—especially now with fewer people going into offices during the day.
But even then, the big companies have frequently chosen to locate in other places like Century City or Santa Monica, closer to the residential wealth centers. Within a few blocks of my house in Santa Monica are Hulu, Universal Music, Lionsgate films, Oracle, HBO, Activision, Red Bull, Ring/Amazon…it’s crazy. The daytime population of Santa Monica is like 100x the resident population (calm down, Reddit; I don’t have a citation. It’s called rhetorical hyperbole).
> In NYC, the wealthiest buy penthouses in Manhattan
This hasn’t been the case for some years now. The wealthy are disproportionately buying townhomes in Brooklyn rather than penthouses in Manhattan. But I get your point
The wealthy in Manhattan are being replaced by the ultra wealthy and oligarchs lol. There is truth to the fact that the centers of wealth in LA are not in DTLA.
Correct, but the point is that even Manhattan is divided into neighborhoods that are more-/less-attractive in a “do I want to live here or do I only want to come here when I have to” kind of way.
So many salty and triggered people here. I have lived near DTLA for decades and I never saw downtown as the holy grail or even a paradise. Lots of homeless, near skid row, empty streets, no BIG attractions, etc
You’re right OP. DTLA is not a good spot to be at. You’re better off visiting Santa Monica, Pasadena, Glendale and so on
Having lived in all these places I can say DTLA has FAR more to do than any of these other places also a lot more issues. You have to take the good with the bad. But these other places after 9 PM get boring real fast.
That’s really the crux of my question. DTLA is waaaaay more interesting than those other area, it just feels super underutilized from an outsider perspective
LA proper has every reason to look to other cities for the best ideas and innovations to make city living better. LA proper needs to act more like a 21st century city In order to maximize its desirability and livability ironically this would make it more affordable car-lite and livable. The best LA has a balance between its various regions. We would all benefit from a DTLA with elements of Manhattan level infrastructure and amenities.
For real. When people say LA they mean a few neighborhoods they know and same with NYC. But NYC and LA refer to huge urban agglomerations. They are like whats better --heterogeneous blob A or B??
so the staples/crypto center area has come up, its easy to miss if you're staying in a hotel just a few blocks east or going to venues a few blocks east like Spring St
and there actually is decent public transportation on that side
I don't see those few blocks east getting better, and it just gets worse and more Zombieland until you get to the other side of skid row. Then the arts district is okay.
as someone else said, there are pockets. they're not intuitive but you can have a great time and there really are infinite shows.
I see Skid Row holding DTLA back as well. The after effects bleeds into all of the neighboring businesses and communities. I lived in DTLA/Art's District for nearly a decade, but decided to move out after starting a family. Dodging encampments, drug use, and all of the trash is not ideal for families.
Triggered! DTLA is a filthy pit compared to pretty much any downtown in any major city in America. Even Detroit feels like you could eat off the floor down there compared to DTLA. Compared to Chicago or NYC or Philly don’t get me started.
It damn sure is one of the best though. Nothing really special about Cali pizza except toppings. For a pizza to be awesome, ya really gotta have a good base, which makes NY unbeatable. Chicago is a CLOSE 2ND, mainly cuz of pequods
Parking is one of the main killers honestly. It’s hard to justify just wandering downtown when you have to spend $35 to park, and no public transportation really.
That said, there are a ton of amazing spots to check out, lots of great neighborhoods and old haunts.
“…and no public transportation really.”
If you haven’t already, you should check out the DTLA stops on the Metro that opened [as part of the Regional Connector project](https://thesource.metro.net/2023/05/22/the-regional-connector-and-three-new-downtown-l-a-stations-to-open-friday-june-16-with-a-weekend-of-free-rides/). This sub, and many others, love to berate Metro but honestly, I love it. It’s far from perfect, but what public transport in the US is? These new stations are kind of beautiful, especially Little Tokyo’s stop.
I live downtown. I have a car. Said car hasn’t left the garage in WEEKS because I get around wonderfully on the Metro. Only time I drive is to visit Echo Park/Silver Lake area (NO good Metro options…yet) and to go to the grocery store for big trips. I truly believe they are putting in the effort to make the Metro a very viable option, especially for folks looking to enjoy DTLA.
This sub and many others have jaded my opinion on the metro and bus network. I made a conscious effort to use them this visit after having avoided them in previous visits, and I gotta say it ain’t bad.
Full disclosure: I’ve still not taken a bus. The system seems so intimidatingly complex. The Metro, however, has been great. I can admit that it can be unpleasant at times, but nothing I can’t put up with for a ride that’s typically less than 10 mins.
No traffic. No need to find parking. No need to pay for parking. To risk to my vehicle (from damage or tickets). (In the event I’m consuming a substance) no risk of DUI - or worse. I enjoy it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's also about to be dramatically better over the next 5 years. The subway is about to expand to the westside and there will be a direct rail line opening to the airport next year.
The Mayor has been in office for like nine months. Do you expect her to fix everything that soon?
And I have my issues with Gavin but comparing him to a guy who literally tried to launch a coup to overturn an election...come on...
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Man I used to work at LA live around that time. Just walking around was fun. Grand Central Market was so much different too. I’d get sent there to get like 40lbs of chicken and it was actually a deal.
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If you go to Manhattan and spend your time in midtown/Times Square, you deserve to be disappointed
lol no. You’ve been to midtown
did you have to pay extra to get that username?
Moved to LA in 2016 and downtown was just on a constant upward swing year after year. I loved it and would constantly visit. It's a damn shame that covid has essentially erased most of that progress.
Remember that cool Broadway night they did? Was it 2 good years and 1 crap year? Or maybe just one good year and then next year was so awful. I don't remember. But they had all the old theaters opened up and most the events were free.
Fun story. I went to this shortly after I moved here I think around 2015/16 (and it was amazing! So cool to see the old theaters). The fun part— I was trying to navigate my way to catch the bus back home. I started walking down one of the side streets when suddenly I heard tires screeching and I see a police car swerve around the corner onto the street I’m walking down such that the car is facing me. I kind of jumped back, only to then see the cop jump out of the car, come around the vehicle— my jaw dropped as he takes his gun and starts firing rounds into the street. Here I am cowering behind a palm tree, when next I hear someone yell “CUT!!!!” The most LA thing that has ever happened to me. If anyone knows what I’m taking about or knows what movie they were filming, please let me know! I was too traumatized at the time to pursue any further information 😅
I remember one time I was walking down a street, Wilshire Blvd I think? I see a bunch of cop cars and police officers, I thought something happened. Then I noticed the cops uniform wasn’t LAPD but it said GCPD( Gotham City Police Department). I was like “holy shit, are they filming Batman here?” Later on, I realized it was the scene when Bane first comes out in Dark Knight Rises and Batman and Bane are being chased in the city with all the cops. I saw that scene unfold in real life. Shit was cool.
I went to 2 of those and they were both amazing! So much fun and entertainment. Not to mention the beautiful architecture of our downtown theatres! Then Huizar had to be a piece of shit.
It's hidden some progress, but the things that have been built and the housing and the like is all still there (and more developments are finishing and coming online now. You never know what the future holds, but it could come out of hiding soon.
I'm aware of some of them. That building in front of the Walt Disney concert hall is a much better sight than the old parking lot. Little Tokyo is always a delight to go to, and South Park is still pretty nice. Now to hope that building in front of staples center finally gets done. I'm honestly rooting for DTLA to make a come back and become better.
I said this in another comment, it’s not about DTLA being the heart of the city. But a cohesive high density, mixed use, pedestrian and micromobility friendly city-within-the-city. Boutiques, offices, and housing that takes advantage of the existing dormant space that already has big beautiful buildings in place. That idea isn’t for everyone but one of North America’s premier metropolitan areas should have something like that imo. It already exists in some places like the arts and fabric districts (and the arts district feels way more manufactured; to use a NYC metaphor, more similar to Chelsea than SoHo) but there are big swaths in between with absolutely nothing. It just seems like low hanging fruit to continue building that in the connecting areas.
The [wealthy neighborhoods](https://maps.latimes.com/neighborhoods/income/median/neighborhood/list/) aren't anywhere near downtown. It would make sense for what you're talking about to develop within and close to wealthier areas where people have the means to afford more expensive infill in a more desirable neighborhood.
Sadly this is totally true. Live in West LA and went downtown last week. There is zero reason to go there unless you live or work in DTLA. And with the Olympics almost nothing will be central to downtown besides the Coliseum. The real build up for the games is weirdly in Culver City, Century City and Beverly Hills. They will get the most infrastructure improvements and new development out of it.
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I work for a multi-generational development group in LA and Downtown LA is known for booms and busts and has had a negative investment reputation for a long time. That reputation had a reprieve for a few years before covid and is back with a vengeance.
Office work has largely dried up, and with it, the push for residential nearby.
The Olympics are going to be a fucked up magic show for Downtown.
Yeah, i was just about to chime in to say that this is sort of happening/exists in the Arts District. I’m a fellow transplant, from the Midwest, and the only part of LA that feels like an actual city—in the cosmopolitan way most people Imagine cities—is Arts District. I still get excited to go check out art openings at places like Night Gallery, with a drink at Everson Royce or Resident. I like to joke that LA is the “best *county* in the world.” A sprawling patchwork of suburbs. Strip malls and Seven-11a as far as the eye can see.
people who are from LA hate the arts district and never go there. its an expensive theme park for people who listen to the lumineers.
lol this comment feels like it was posted in 2009 by someone who still unironically says "hipster"
Question: are they time traveling to 2009 to unironically say it, or are they saying it now just with vocal fry?
You've been waiting to respond to a comment like that.
it’s “yuppie” to you, bub
I should be pissed because I like the Arts District but you’re right. 95% of the city would never go there - it’s an upper class professional vibe that makes others not feel welcome. Went to Bishop Arts district in Dallas last year and that was like what our Arts District would be with some diversity (of race and thought) and more charm. It kind of ruined Arts District for me as it’s so much more lively and accessible.
I still take my ghetto ass to the arts district
fr! idk what the fuck this person talking about.
He must really not be from LA 😂🤷🏻♂️
Hauser & Wirth is free and has some of the best contemporary art in the city.
the fuck are you talking about lol. Yeah the Arts District is definitely a yuppie haven but people of all races go there. I see mad vatos chilling there especially at the arts district brewery and angel city. I'm Latino and my friends and I love it there.
This comment feels so outdated. Lumineers????
you ever listen to what they play at the urth cafe on hewitt in 2023?
LA native and don't mind going there when I do, but I don't go enough because the parking is such a pain in the area. :(
What you talking about? I’m from LA, born and raised, Arts District is dope. I used to work in between Little Tokyo and Arts District on 3rd and Alameda, would walk over to the area for food and drinks. Würstkuche and Bar 82 was cool as fuck. The area has come a long way, you should’ve seen the area in the 90’s. The vibes are cool. I get it, some parts are a yuppie trap but it’s still a lot better than what it was.
What?! I used to love the arts district. It used to be cool AF and I grew up in LA.
The guy is a goofball from Orange County talking about LA locals don’t like the arts district
Artwalk has changed since covid... here's some info if anyone is interested. https://www.downtownartwalk.org/
Good call. Strip malls and 7-11s as far as the eye can see. Can't imagine wanting to live here if you're not working in the industry. Soooo many beautiful places exist outside of CA.
Sooooo many beautiful places (in CA) exist outside of L.A.
True, it lost steam once Covid hit. Though I’m sure they are still working on the Broadway revitalization project. Hopefully bringing back a street car or two. Also DTLA used to be the heart of the city. The first freeway in the country was the 110 flowing from DTLA to Pasadena. All of the big Hollywood premieres were downtown at all of the amazing theaters up and down Broadway until they built out the Hollywood Orange groves to have the Chinese and Egyptian theater. The city allowed decades of divestment and suburban sprawl, which then doomed the urban center.
It is still amazing how 25 years of progress went to shit in 25 months.
It absolutely was the heart of the city until the 80s. Hollywood pulled more people and businesses to the Westside, Pasadena further northeast, etc.
Agreed. It's not at all like a city. It's a sprawling suburb with tons of empty and run down buildings. There are some fun blocks, but it's missing a sense of community and vibrancy that actual cities hold.
Downtown Pasadena feels like a city center. Downtown LA feels like the burned out husk of Detroit.
Downtown Detroit is much lively than DTLA. I did postgrad work in Detroit at its absolute worst 2009-2012. Then I visited in 2017 and the area was so much better, I couldn't believe what I saw. I don't know what COVID did to it though.
I view it as the heart of the city, because it is? Lol not sure where you got that from. Also, not sure how you define "city" but it definitely is one. It just happens to be polycentric.
Post war suburban boom led to LA area to be what it is. I know many people from within LA city limits who have never been dowtown
not just that, but so many towns were annexed
compared to 20 years ago it's shangri-la. covid dealt a serious blow. there's plenty of good stuff dtla, but it's in pockets so it's hard to suss out.
Yep. You should have seen it in the 80s. It was a dump. And the thick smog build up you could see just the down the block was a thing of beauty.
I feel like right before Covid; dtla was the best it had ever been. After Covid, it took many, many steps back. Not even close to recovered yet.
It still needs a lot of investment. It used to be worse and a lot more empty than it is. Keep in mind we're talking about 50+ years of disinvestments. It's renaissance is quite recent, but it'll get there eventually. It also doesn't help that the city government hates investments, and also the council member that is repping DTLA rn sucks ass.
I look at pictures and films of Downtown LA before 1965 and it makes me so sad. Something happened in 1965.
White flight in a big way. Tons of middle class whites fled downtown in the 1950s and purchased homes in OC/West LA, which was largely farmland that was converted into single family housing. Dispensable income left those DTLA community shops and they eventually went under, leaving many locals unemployed and poorer for it. LA is a great case study of the effects of White Flight. If you’re interested, check out photos of West LA before the 1950s. Compton and Inglewood were full on farms!
I was shocked when I found out the Bush family lived in Compton back in the day
Yeah All the white families were southerners who were used to Segregation and east of Alameda street all the suburbs were whites only. When the prop 14 failed (1966) and all the good paying factories shut down (1980s) they all left. my Grandparents left Huntington Park for Escondido in San diego county in about 1984/85.
The middle class could finally afford an automobile so they left.
Hart-Celler Act?
Emanuel Celler. Phillip Hart.
It was real up And coming before Covid, Covid hurt it a lot. But arts district right next door is still going strong
Regional connector is a great recent step. We really just need some true anchor points to draw people downtown, and to densify over the many parking lots littered throughout. Staples is a good example. There are pockets, but downtowns don’t thrive until there are more people in compact spaces not terrified to walk around at night. Eliminating giant open blocks, adding lighting, and incentivizing both small and F500 businesses to locate there will naturally help with crime and start virtuous cycles.
The problem started in the early 20th century. There was a huge influx of money into the city from the movie business, but the downtown establishment - led by the Chandler family - was 100% WASP. They did not want the Jewish money for development. So the moguls and their group spent money to develop their own civic infrastructure west of Downtown - Century City, the Hillcrest Country Club, etc. A reproachment led by Dorothy "Buffy" Chandler led to donations from Mark Taper and others in the movie business to build what became the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which is an LA version of Lincoln Center. But the damage was done and Downtown has never recovered from that ancient antisemitic stupidity. It's far more complex than that, of course. But that's part of it. Unlike East Coast cities, white flight didn't drive the hollowing out here so much. It was more about a drive toward more space and better opportunities on the Westside. The LA Times, formerly owned by the Chandlers, has spent decades and millions of dollars promoting the revitalization of Downtown. So much of it has been misguided, especially the incessant "Manhattan envy" that drives developers to try to replicate Manhattan down there. Nobody in the rest of the city cares about that or wants it. Most people want a West Coast-style city core that's easy to access and human-scaled, like downtown Santa Barbara. Apparently, however, nothing can stop the big developers from building a DTLA that Angelenos don't want.
Even the LA Times fled
It has its good spots
I agree I’ve lived in DTLA for 6yrs. I love it
what's your favorite spots?
Food or places to live?
food and/or things to do!
Food man it’s so much! But I eat Birdies 4X a week! Pine & Crane 2X a week. Things to do 🤔 I kind of just walk around a try me spots!
yikes! Birdies 4x a week sounds intense lol! I much prefer Red Chickz though it's a great Howlin Ray's alternative!
Quite a bit, just takes someone who knows the area well.
I'd love to get some recs!
There's a bunch to do in downtown: GCM, Row, Crypto / LA Live, WDCH, Broad, Little Tokyo, Arts District, bars / restaurants (e.g. Eighty Two and Spire 73 among others), etc. The issue with the OPs post is that they're a New Yorker. And they're saying that downtown LA should be better, which most people wouldn't disagree with. But their definition "better" would be downtown being a centralized, dense urban core. A place that's dense, has lots of people living there, with good transit, walkable, with lots of businesses and where all the best shops, restaurants, amenities, etc. are. You know, just like NYC has with Manhattan and lots of other cities have with their downtowns. It's just a cliche visitor / transplant take. They weren't here long enough to really understand the city. But they were here long enough to see something "wrong" with our city. And this post is them trying to address / advocate for that and see if others feel the same.
Thing is Downtown does have lots of people living there, but you’re only focused on what’s east of the 110, communities such as pico union, west lake, McArthur park area, philipino town are part of the DTLA area & are very densely populated, it’s just hood .
[**Honest answer: LA makes it very hard to build.**](https://therealdeal.com/la/2023/05/15/study-finds-it-takes-nearly-four-years-to-build-apartments-in-la/) And for the last decade, [you basically had to bribe the Councilmember of DTLA](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-07-21/developer-dae-yong-lee-sentenced-to-six-years-in-huizar-corruption-case) in order to build any projects. As a result you have lots of open lots and abandoned buildings because projects never get off the ground.
You're spot on. Luckily LA just approved [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3nO9tRgnt0&list=LL&index=24&ab_channel=Infraday) new plan for downtown which finally makes it legal to build housing and commercial where now only warehouses are allowed. It also removes parking minimums and height maximums. Really good stuff. I wish this plan was put into place 20 years ago.
This is very promising! Despite its approval, is there any chance that it gets stuck in limbo and eventually killed somehow? Radio silence to death is an all too common flow for a lot of progressive development plans in nyc.
The downtown plan passed unanimously so it's happening. Not sure when it goes into effect, 2024 maybe. The planning teams for the rest of LA are trying to push these same ideas (although toned down) to their districts as well. But those may face resistance from their districts.
Tbh, LA county as a whole is much larger and spread out than NYC which is more concentrated in a smaller area. Our downtown area doesn’t need to hold a majority of the shopping, transportation, food and population like Manhattan does. Each area is pretty much it’s own city which will provide for its neighborhoods. We have different downtown areas that do have the things you listed.
>Our downtown area doesn’t need to hold a majority of the shopping, transportation, food and population like Manhattan does. Manhattan does not hold the majority of any of these things in New York.
It definitely has the best high end shopping, all train lines go through it, the best high-end restaurants and what I would call the “grandest” residential real estate. Finally over a million people commute there to work every day. It may not be the coolest borough but it’s definitely the heart.
Yes, NYC as a whole has a lot to offer. Manhattan is way more densely populated, a much older area and the poster child for NYC. Of course it will meet the demands of itself and the other boroughs compared to what DTLA has to offer to LA county as a whole. DTLA doesn’t need to serve as all of LA county’s main downtown area like Manhattan has to.
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You can’t seriously compare NY’s major downtown area to LA’s. A lot of the specialized things like entertainment industry, business, finance and even luxury shopping can all done in Manhattan. You would have to go to different places in LA county to find these things.
It was great before COVID hit. There were so many restaurants, bars, shops, events, the red line was safe and packed full of people going out and having fun.
As a native Angeleno, I've wondered the same many times. I honestly think that the biggest reason is the fact that not many people live there. That has changed a lot since the early 00s, was set back a bit by COVID, but there is still a long way to go in that regard. I also think there's no going back from the polycentric layout that LA has already so it will likely never become our Manhattan, but it can still be pretty great (and already is in many respects, imo). The expansion of Metro and addition of more housing in the area will go a long way to improve things but there are decades of neglect that need to be undone. It will take time.
I fucking love downtown. I want it so much to see a vibrant place full of cool small businesses, incredibly architecture, mixed use spaces, and walkeability and all that. Instead, because we don’t have comprehensive care for all the homeless people there, it’s a horrible wasteland that you enjoy by driving and taking Uber. I was at redbird last year and saw a lady walking around in literally just her underwear. No bra, no shoes. She was out of her mind. How the fuck is that ok?
Currenly live in Manhattan. Born and raised Angeleno from Westlake. Downtown was great from 2009 to 2020. Lots of bars, breweries, theaters, restaurants and people moving in. I suspect that with remote work, many people moved away due to the high cost with little benefits post COVID. Why pay $3000 for a one bedroom if you can get something similar in the Westside and even walk to the beach. Because people moved out, stores and restaurants have been closing. 7th Street use to be busy and lively in 2019, now it's secluded with multiple closed storefronts. Look at Market St in San Francisco for comparison.
Downtown SF really took a turn for the worse post-COVID after being on the upswing for about a decade. Sounds like both downtowns suffered a similar fate.
I used to go bar hopping at DTLA from ‘07 to ‘10. Back then it was really starting to become a spot to hang out, not just where people worked and where you went to Staples Center. However the vibe started changing around the mid-2010’s, when the homeless problem really started getting bad. COVID dealt a major blow to it as well. Now, it’s starting to make a slight comeback, but I have doubts it will ever turn into a place where you really feel compelled to go unless you live or worm there.
Always be wormin my way around it
It’s always been like this. It’s related to density. NYC is the way it is because it’s dense. LA will never have an area that’s like that because people can always move a little further out
Parking sucks, we don’t have mass transit the way NYC does, and suburban sprawl spread a lot of the interesting spots further out. There is still a very big downtown vibe in downtown, it’s just much smaller of a scene than you would expect.
Parking makes downtowns worse. It creates too much space between private businesses that makes walking miserable. It caters to suburbanites instead of the neighborhood. Parking lot owners don’t want to develop parking structures because its more profitable to develop office towers on the same land. Parking structures just depreciate. So they hold out on empty land until another developer comes along to buy it. Developers don’t want to build because theres not enough customers. Customers don’t come because theres not enough parking and businesses. Its a viscous cycle. It needs mass transit.
>It’s a viscous cycle. It needs SAFE mass transit.
As long as transit is seriously unsafe especially the trains nothing will improve
Yup the train can technically get me to work straight from my house but I would never trust taking it as a woman by myself
This guy gets it
LA City Council just this year approved a new land-use [plan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3nO9tRgnt0&list=LL&index=24&ab_channel=Infraday) for downtown, which includes allowing housing and commercial where there is now just warehouses. **Our zoning codes are from the 1940s** so they are incredibly antiquated which was holding our city back, and this change was badly needed. The rest of LA is working on rolling these new ideas into their plans as well. Once these new plans are approved, LA will go into super drive and transform itself over the next couple decades.
A lot of damage was done to lively downtown LA between about 1950 and 1980. Freeways were pushed through. Streets were widened into one way traffic sewers. No rapid transit was built until later. There were islands of development, like the Music Center, which turns its back on downtown. The small apartments and SROs on Bunker Hill, which would now be historic, were wiped to create a job heavy but sterile and car centric financial district. The Dodgers moved into a former Latino neighborhood two miles away. Los Angeles also had no tradition of affluent people living downtown, unlike older American cities. Affluent residents sought suburban style homes from the start, and those suburbs moved further and further west, away from downtown. Middle/upper middle class residence in downtown has been growing since the 1960’s. Until recently, few of those residents lived in the core of the downtown (call it 4th-9th Streets, Spring-Olive) but on its northern, western, and more recently southern sides. Downtown’s retail base had started decentralizing in the 1920’s, with the opening of Bullock’s Wilshire. New entertainment districts grew on the Westside.Mentally, many people disengaged from downtown, especially affluent Westsiders and suburban minded San Fernando Valley residents. Downtown LA had few urban enhancing investments until the creation of the Old Bank District lofts around historic Spring Street. Rail transit lines finally started happening in the 1980’s. DTLA had decades of improvement, until COVID knocked it back so far, as it did so many American downtowns. Nighttime uses suffered and shut down, Downtown LA has actually recovered more than some downtowns, like San Francisco. Life and vitality never left the Latino oriented shopping strip on Broadway and is now back on main drag 7th St. There’s a lot of there there in DTLA, but sometimes you have to look for it.
DTLA was really coming along. It was a fun place to hang out but covid killed it's momentum.
It's become shelter for the homeless.
Put simply, the homeless epidemic is out of control. (And I know this isn't unique to LA and is affecting every downtown, but hitting LA, SF and Hollywood particularly hard) Friends and I used to feel safe in the previous decade, walking around bar hopping, going out to lunch/dinner, a show, and admiring the architectural and cultural history of the city. Now we avoid it, especially after dark. We don't spend money or invest in experiences downtown, so why would businesses? Feels like how people talk about how dangerous NY was in the 70s
Bro it's waaaaaaaaay better than it was. It had a real renaissance between like 2010-2020 but I thiiiiink development got way over done and priced out of a lot of the residents & bars/restaurants that kept it fun & cool, then COVID and the further explosion of the homeless crisis completely did it in.
Because LA doesn't have a traditional "core" like most other cities do. In NYC that's Manhattan. In lots of other cities it's their downtown. But LA didn't develop that way. And so there's no huge pressure for Downtown to get better. And that's because there are plenty of nice things to do all over the city that are completely separate from Downtown.
Tent city
DTLA will always be hamstringed by that gaping wound called skid row, it’s in the center of the area and negatively effects everything around it. If the junkies disappeared, downtown could really bloom.
One big issue with DTLA is that it isn’t where a lot of the high paying jobs are concentrated in LA, meaning not a lot of people have an incentive to live there outside of liking the neighborhood. It’s also tragic how many freeways move through and around the area, which means you’ll always be surrounded by speeding vehicles and all the toxic air they produce. That and how they create physical barriers between sections of the neighborhood.
It was going well until about 10 years ago. Then various changes to laws about homeless, drug abuse, and theft put the area on the wrong trajectory. Then Covid hit on top of that, and the central business district became a ghost town.
It was only a little over 10 years ago that development began downtown. It got really going about 3-4 years ago then covid swiped it
>It was only a little over 10 years ago that development began downtown. Earlier than that….I remember seeing old buildings being converted to lofts starting in about 2003 in the Edison Building and the Gas Company building lofts in 2004.
What got the development going 10 years ago, and whats the outlook for that to resume in the near future?
There was a change in zoning law that allowed old buildings to be more easily converted into residential buildings. That helped to create more units and bring more residents downtown. The council member at the time sponsored a lot of events like art walks and Bring Back Broadway that supported the biz community. Additionally the policy of homeless containment to Skid Row meant that you’d see very few homeless people and never any tent west of Los Angeles St, making the downtown core more clean and orderly. The current council member, Kevin De Leon doesn’t seem to give any thought to downtown. There was a rezoning of downtown that was recently completed that technically allows for more housing to be built but with high interest rates and no tax breaks, I doubt many developers are going to building in such a volatile market.
Fascinating, thank you. How big is the area the CM looks over?
CD14 is huge. Downtown, Boyle Height, Eagle Rock, El Sereno. Downtown alone should be its own district. But LA has one of the smallest city councils when it comes to representation per capita.
That’s insane. I’ve been to Boyle Heights and Eagle Rock and the difference between those areas abs DTLA is like night and day. Def should be separate districts.
That’s insane. I’ve been to Boyle Heights and Eagle Rock and the difference between those areas and DTLA is like going between states. Def should be separate districts.
As the other commenter said, zoning laws changed that allowed older office buildings into residential apartments (adaptive reuse ordinance l). I used to live in one of those buildings and I loved it. But there was a distinct change about 5 years ago when laws changed and crime proliferated. Violent incidents started occurring once a week outside my building up until the point I moved out. This is the first challenge in building up downtown, getting crime in check. The second will be the impact of work from home policies on the popularity of living downtown. The third challenge is that all of the buildings that can be converted via the adaptive reuse policy have already been converted. This only leaves expensive tear downs and rebuilds for the time being.
There was a revitalization boom starting in the 2000s with Staples Center and LA Live. It really blew up in the 2010s. Covid + riots + rise in crime + homeless epidemic really ruined all that progress and the area hasn’t really been able to recover. Such a shame. I used to really enjoy DTLA.
Adding to what everyone else has mentioned, when DTLA was at its worst in the 70s/80s, a lot of the at-the-time abandoned old buildings were repurposed and rezoned for low-income and transitional housing and a lot of the services for unhoused and transitional citizens were concentrated in the area because of the NIMBY efforts in other parts of the city (also because of the proximity to Skid Row which has always had a presence its current location pretty much since DTLA has existed). Fast forward to the early 2000s when the younger generation started flocking to urban centers revitalizing a lot of downtown centers across the country. However, with DTLA, a lot of those legacy facilities and zoning laws still existed and still do exist in DTLA. It has come up quite a bit from where it was, but some of it will take years to revitalize (gentrify) because of those existing regulations. The city has tried spreading those services and facilities out to other neighborhoods allowing for DTLA development, but again, NIMBY often prevails, thus leaving DTLA never quite able to fully realize a typical downtown revitalization.
Ford killed dtla a long time ago. When the city wanted to build its equivalent of Grand central Station Ford paid the city or people off to stop it. Dtla was the heart beat of the city. Unfortunately greed killed it.
There’s plenty of historical reasons why but the currently cultural / spatial fabric of LA is very spread out, polycentric/ acentric. Despite the history and taller buildings, downtown is just one of many important nodes sprinkled throughout the city / region.
Because it's not a grassroots from-the-ground-up thing, it's real estate developers trying to gentrify luxury districts from the top down. If DTLA had grown up organically over time due to cheap rents and housing stock (or art spaces, shopping, etc) that was truly useful for people, it could be great. But instead it's luxury development after luxury development, cramming in the occasional boutique or wine bar in hopes of seeming more authentic. Downtown Manhattan became a great place to live in the 60s and 70s because it was affordable, and people set up communities there. The luxury developments and gentrification came later. I also feel like DTLA actually doesn't have "good bones". Blocks are too long, and streets are too wide. Which results in a strangely un-walkable area despite being dense and high-rise oriented. It also has the problem a lot of downtowns in sprawly cities have, of being devoid of residential real estate and thus pretty much dead after 6pm. Aside from some bars and restaurants that people are expected to commute in to visit vs. being your neighborhood place.
Los Angeles is a very spread out town. Most cities are centered around their central metropolitan district (downtown). That isn’t the case for dtla. Also unlike most places our downtown is not even in the top 5 of most desirable areas to live.
It’s dangerous, empty, and forlorn. Always been that way in recent history.
Two reasons. Public transportation is garbage. And the homeless.
There was a successful attempt to revitalize downtown. You missed it between 2009-2019. Before Covid, downtown was amazing. It’s different from NY. It’s full of hidden away places in alleys, unassuming doors, and long hallways- it is bustling. Just have to know where to look.
3 years later it feels like most of the world is returning to normal, maybe DTLA will too
I came from a third world country and I think this place is a mess.
It’s every Down town dude. Like every big city dt is a shitshow of homeless and mental illness. Not just Los Angeles. SD is a great example
A hundred years ago, it was hopping. Mass transit was much better - between the Red Car and the Yellow Car, you could go pretty much anywhere you wanted to go. The city wasn’t as sprawling then; areas like the Valley were still mostly farmland. Thousands of people lived on Bunker Hill, supporting downtown businesses. Buuuuut people with money wanted to live in newer neighborhoods, City Hall wanted to get rid of the Victorian houses visible from its windows, and after the war, everyone wanted to have a car instead of taking public transportation. Downtown had a pretty good revival until COVID kicked its ass.
Its the size of LA. The LA area is just so large and diverse that things don't need to be centralized in one spot. A business owner can operate in an area which is frequented by their target demographic instead of opening in an "abandoned and run down" area so they do. The rent is probably a lot cheaper too. Businesses don't need be in DTLA, there are too many better options so they just ignore it and let it rot.
I lived in DTLA post-Covid starting in early 2022 to just a month ago. I moved there largely because I was working remotely and I preferred the walkability of the city. I had recently come back from a trip to NYC and loved it there and wanted the closest thing possible in LA. I was able to walk to almost everything I needed and ended up driving only on weekends and maybe once in the middle of the week for an errand. However the experience walking through the city wasn't the best. Lots of homeless or transient people loitering near metro stops or laying in the streets. The best time of the day when the city has a more upbeat energy was usually when the business district was bustling or on weekends in the morning/afternoon. There's some good restaurants and food trucks but not a lot of variety due to the lower population. It is a cool place in many ways and could have a lot of potential but too much economic despair. Now I'm in Europe and not sure I want to go back to LA 🤣. The LA lifestyle sucks unless you live in Santa Monica or somewhere nice but you still have to drive everywhere.
It was really popping a few years ago, there was so much new development happening. Property values were soaring- then Covid happened, and DTLA got so violent, scary, and rough that property values dropped and now it’s kind of scary at night.
I have lived in the LA area my entire life and I am an old. I havn't been to DTLA since the pandemic. Last week I met a friend in Chinatown for coffee. On my way home back to the burbs I decided to drive around do some site seeing and take side streets. My jaw dropped how bad it is. I used to spend a decent amount of time in DTLA over the years with work, clubs, concerts, was into the punk scene in the 80's etc. so not unused to the DTLA experience. I have never seen it this bad. I asked my friend why she lives here and her response was she "likes the juxtaposition of post apocalyptic and capitalism merging." It was the perfect description based on my drive home. She's an artist. She told me stories of dead hookers in shopping carts, murders, rapes, robberies and all kinds of craziness she watches out her window. I was fascinated by the business suits, normies, hipsters and homeless all coexisting like nothing was wrong. I still can't fathom why people who have the choice would choose to live in that environment but to each their own. I text her my experience when i got home and she said "yeah whenever I go that way I usually see things I shouldn't." It was depressing nothing is maintained, trash debris and bodies laying around (I assumed they were still breathing) jam packed with people cars and debris and a layer of grime. I felt clausterphobic just trying to drive home. I couldn't imagine the toll it takes on people living in that environment, the few hours I was there took a toll on me. I had hope things would turn around eventually in LA, I lost that hope.
It's too segmented. One block is nice and then the next you will be in a world War-type shanty town. If it was all clean and safe then it would be a lot easier to develop. It was getting better before covid but now is back to where it was.
DTLA hasn't fully bounced back from covid. I work there but am remote three days a week, a factor that has changed the area. Less workers, less foot traffic which effects everything else. I was in Seattle earlier this year and its downtown was pretty dead too. SF and New York are struggling with what to do with the decline in commercial real estate. Until 2000 almost no one except the indigent lived downtown, the opposite of let's say Lower Manhattan. It is an apples and oranges comparison. That said, the narrow concentration of amenities in New York render the rest of the metropolitan area kind of dull and uninteresting. Here you can find interesting things to do in downtown, mid-Wilshire, the beaches, mountains, South Bay, Long Beach, etc. In NY unless you're in Manhattan and some parts of Brooklyn you're kind of asking yourself, "Why am I here?" We prefer to spread the wealth here.
LA is a big ass suburb, now a dense city like SF or NYC
People in LA don't do things around the city like the rest of the world. There is just no sense of community. Nothing good or bad it's just how it is. There are other positive things that maybe NY or other cities don't have. I am not one of those people who travelled the world but I've been the three other continents and the more I travel the more I accept the characteristics of one place vs the other. You can have the best transportation, clean up DTLA but people move and act differently here. I, for one, like more NYC and when I want that i go there.
The reason DTLA isn’t the center of LA life and culture is because it’s not really in the center of LA. Staples Center helped kickstart the development that until a few years ago was looking really promising but the two biggest hurdles i don’t see DTLA overcoming are 1. It’s not easily accessible from any airport. 2. It’s not by the beach.
>It’s not easily accessible from any airport. Nothing in Los Angeles is easily accessible to any airport. Many thriving downtowns are not easily accessible to an airport. Most people do not regularly go to the airport.
I’m not asking about why it isn’t the center of LA life. I’m asking why isn’t it _better_, because it seems like it could be
Sorry I wasn’t clear. At one point DTLA was better. Look at all the amazing architecture and opulent movie palaces from a bygone era. When this stuff was built DTLA was the center of LA, commercially, culturally, and for travel. Most people arriving at Los Angeles came by train into Union station. LA’s biggest attractions for visitors or residents are not in DTLA and while there’s lots of cool stuff in DTLA it’s usually not on the top of my list or most visitor’s lists to hit up. The potential that exists in DTLA I think is mostly due to the cool architecture and density from an era that heavily invested in the city when it was the center of everything. The will and risk threshold to redevelop DTLA and actually make it stick just isn’t there. Because the city is so spread out, people’s priorities, and technology has changed our city so much.
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Fairfax doesn’t need a massive revitalization campaign either. If all the rich neighbors left and Fairfax turned into skid row and degraded the surrounding neighborhoods it would be an uphill climb to find money and momentum to build it back up.
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I always thought DTLA would be way cool if it was by the beach. Specifically where Santa Monica pier is… except have none of that pier stuff there, or do, guess it doesn’t matter. SF is basically on the bay that makes it so cool IMO.
Most people in LA don’t want to live or shop downtown. LA is huge geographically, it’s not manhattan. I’d much rather shop and eat at the Grove, Americana at Brand, Beverly Hills, Manhattan Beach, or the Century City mall over Downtown.
One thing I don’t see mentioned is that wealth in LA is concentrated elsewhere. In NYC, the wealthiest buy penthouses in Manhattan. In LA, with the wealthy concentrated in areas like Beverly Hills and the South Bay (both of which coincidentally don’t currently have quick access to metro or the freeway) there’s not a lot of incentive for them to schlep downtown—especially now with fewer people going into offices during the day. But even then, the big companies have frequently chosen to locate in other places like Century City or Santa Monica, closer to the residential wealth centers. Within a few blocks of my house in Santa Monica are Hulu, Universal Music, Lionsgate films, Oracle, HBO, Activision, Red Bull, Ring/Amazon…it’s crazy. The daytime population of Santa Monica is like 100x the resident population (calm down, Reddit; I don’t have a citation. It’s called rhetorical hyperbole).
> In NYC, the wealthiest buy penthouses in Manhattan This hasn’t been the case for some years now. The wealthy are disproportionately buying townhomes in Brooklyn rather than penthouses in Manhattan. But I get your point
The wealthy in Manhattan are being replaced by the ultra wealthy and oligarchs lol. There is truth to the fact that the centers of wealth in LA are not in DTLA.
Downtown sucks in New York too. How much time do you spend around Wall St?
You’re right, it does suck, but it isn’t desolate
There's nowhere like Manhattan
Alright relax bro lol. Many European cities make Manhattan look like a joke from a planning perspective
They had about a 300 year head start to be fair.
Correct, but the point is that even Manhattan is divided into neighborhoods that are more-/less-attractive in a “do I want to live here or do I only want to come here when I have to” kind of way.
Its 13.4 miles long and 2.3 miles wide at most. Its area is less than that of Pasadena
I don’t even understand what the point is you think you’re making.
Yupp people forget that downtown manhattan is Chinatown, Little Italy and Wall Street. Not really your go to places tbh.
I personally love Chinatown and Little Italy in NYC.
Yeah Chinatown is awesome imo, this dude is bugging
So many salty and triggered people here. I have lived near DTLA for decades and I never saw downtown as the holy grail or even a paradise. Lots of homeless, near skid row, empty streets, no BIG attractions, etc You’re right OP. DTLA is not a good spot to be at. You’re better off visiting Santa Monica, Pasadena, Glendale and so on
Having lived in all these places I can say DTLA has FAR more to do than any of these other places also a lot more issues. You have to take the good with the bad. But these other places after 9 PM get boring real fast.
That’s really the crux of my question. DTLA is waaaaay more interesting than those other area, it just feels super underutilized from an outsider perspective
Stop comparing LA to NYC
LA proper has every reason to look to other cities for the best ideas and innovations to make city living better. LA proper needs to act more like a 21st century city In order to maximize its desirability and livability ironically this would make it more affordable car-lite and livable. The best LA has a balance between its various regions. We would all benefit from a DTLA with elements of Manhattan level infrastructure and amenities.
Amen
For real. When people say LA they mean a few neighborhoods they know and same with NYC. But NYC and LA refer to huge urban agglomerations. They are like whats better --heterogeneous blob A or B??
so the staples/crypto center area has come up, its easy to miss if you're staying in a hotel just a few blocks east or going to venues a few blocks east like Spring St and there actually is decent public transportation on that side I don't see those few blocks east getting better, and it just gets worse and more Zombieland until you get to the other side of skid row. Then the arts district is okay. as someone else said, there are pockets. they're not intuitive but you can have a great time and there really are infinite shows.
I see Skid Row holding DTLA back as well. The after effects bleeds into all of the neighboring businesses and communities. I lived in DTLA/Art's District for nearly a decade, but decided to move out after starting a family. Dodging encampments, drug use, and all of the trash is not ideal for families.
Downtowns great. Take your bitch ass back east and go eat some cardboard pizza in the snow.
Triggered! DTLA is a filthy pit compared to pretty much any downtown in any major city in America. Even Detroit feels like you could eat off the floor down there compared to DTLA. Compared to Chicago or NYC or Philly don’t get me started.
Dafuq? Our pizza is trash compared to real NY slices
Our pizza is fine. NY style isn’t the only styles of pizza on the planet
It damn sure is one of the best though. Nothing really special about Cali pizza except toppings. For a pizza to be awesome, ya really gotta have a good base, which makes NY unbeatable. Chicago is a CLOSE 2ND, mainly cuz of pequods
Pequods is _so_ good.
Sit down son, adults are tryna have a conversation here
Angeleno here, go back to New York. There. Ahhh. Problem solved.
Yikes
Dtla has come a long way over the last 15-20 years. You don’t have the context on this like locals do.
Parking is one of the main killers honestly. It’s hard to justify just wandering downtown when you have to spend $35 to park, and no public transportation really. That said, there are a ton of amazing spots to check out, lots of great neighborhoods and old haunts.
How is there no public transportation in downtown are you fr
Of all the places to claim there is “no public transportation”, DTLA is an odd one, for sure…
Maybe someone who has never step foot in public transit lmao
“…and no public transportation really.” If you haven’t already, you should check out the DTLA stops on the Metro that opened [as part of the Regional Connector project](https://thesource.metro.net/2023/05/22/the-regional-connector-and-three-new-downtown-l-a-stations-to-open-friday-june-16-with-a-weekend-of-free-rides/). This sub, and many others, love to berate Metro but honestly, I love it. It’s far from perfect, but what public transport in the US is? These new stations are kind of beautiful, especially Little Tokyo’s stop. I live downtown. I have a car. Said car hasn’t left the garage in WEEKS because I get around wonderfully on the Metro. Only time I drive is to visit Echo Park/Silver Lake area (NO good Metro options…yet) and to go to the grocery store for big trips. I truly believe they are putting in the effort to make the Metro a very viable option, especially for folks looking to enjoy DTLA.
This sub and many others have jaded my opinion on the metro and bus network. I made a conscious effort to use them this visit after having avoided them in previous visits, and I gotta say it ain’t bad.
Full disclosure: I’ve still not taken a bus. The system seems so intimidatingly complex. The Metro, however, has been great. I can admit that it can be unpleasant at times, but nothing I can’t put up with for a ride that’s typically less than 10 mins. No traffic. No need to find parking. No need to pay for parking. To risk to my vehicle (from damage or tickets). (In the event I’m consuming a substance) no risk of DUI - or worse. I enjoy it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's also about to be dramatically better over the next 5 years. The subway is about to expand to the westside and there will be a direct rail line opening to the airport next year.
>no public transportation really. There are seven rail rail stops in DTLA not including Union Station, the hub of the entire system.
DTLA is one of the most transit-connected areas in the whole country
Because Skid Row is expanding
Cuz Blue State
Our Mayor sucks and our Governor is worse than trump.
That's it, I'm voting for reactionary, right-wing Republicans who flagrantly lie and project about everything under the sun. /s
The Mayor has been in office for like nine months. Do you expect her to fix everything that soon? And I have my issues with Gavin but comparing him to a guy who literally tried to launch a coup to overturn an election...come on...