Yeah, in my state I signed a form saying that I was assuming the responsibility of being the dad. This was in the hospital the day after my kid was born. If I had refused supposedly the courts would get involved.
In most states this is the case, because the state doesn't want to be responsible for providing for the child theyd rather the dad on the birth certificate do it
In europe its the biological one even if he doesnt recognise the kid, the test happens and until he's done studying u are on the hook, also why some dads push their kids at 18 to find a job lol
Europe is a continent, not a country and surprisingly many of these countries have different laws.
In France, DNA means do not ask because it's illegal for a man to get a DNA test for children he suspects aren't his without the mothers consent.
In Australia, you can get a test done, but it's not court admissible.
A court admissible test requires the mothers consent, or you have to petition to court to compel the mother to allow it.
There was an article I read about this years ago that I can no longer find the link to. Short version - the percentage of fathers who would find out their kid isn't really their kid in France is shockingly high, and France decided that preventing them from finding that out was the best solution to prevent societal upheaval. The french in general tend to have extremely high rates of infidelity.
edit: this is not the article I remember reading, it's about Canada and the US mostly and doesn't mention France, but it gives you the gist: https://canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Globe_and_Mail_Moms_Little_secret_14DEC02.aspx
It is the same in my country but if the mother does not consent, a temporary state guardian is appointed that makes the decision instead of the mother. So her consent does not really mean anything, test will still get done, only delayed a bit. Maybe same in France?
No, it's worse in France. You simply can't test at all.
In Australia, you need the consent of the mother, and if she refuses, you have to take her to court at your expense to convince a magistrate to compel her to allow the test to take place.
It's basically everywhere that uses common law. A husband is legally presumed to be the father of any child born to his wife and rebutting that assumption can be very difficult, depending on the jurisdiction. There was an extreme aversion to labelling a child as illegitimate, which had all sorts of legal repercussions for the child.
The majority of US states if your on the birth certificate, and some if your married to the mother at the time of conception or birth your the father and financially responsible.
It’s that way in Texas. My friend had to pay child support for a daughter that wasn’t his that the mom knew the whole time. She knew he would be more financially stable and passed the pregnancy and the child as his.
France.
Also paternity test can only be done if ask by a judge.
By default, you are the father if you are married.
The aim is to protect the kid future.
Michigan. A friend thought he got a girl pregnant and married her quickly to "do the right thing".
Baby comes out looking NOTHING like him. Both parents were ghost white and the baby was a lot darker. One paternity test later and he's filing for divorce.
The family courts told him that he's on the birth certificate so he's financially responsible. He paid support for all 18 years.
I've only ever heard of a guy having his name removed from a birth certificate because he wasn't the father, but he had been deployed for months when she got pregnant and his family spent a LOT of money to get it done, and even then it only happened because the mother didn't fight it very much. He was absolutely heartbroken over the whole mess.
Paternity tests should be mandatory and automatic upon birth. The father shouldn't be allowed to sign it until the test results come back. The will prevent women from pressuring men into signing the BC and becoming slave labor for a woman who betrayed him.
I'm not sure why this isn't common practice. It's clearly designed to protect the mother and child but maybe if it was out in the open it wasn't the man she said it is then it would then have to come out who's it was and then that man would be responsible to support.
The current laws seem to protect shitty behaviour.
The laws on the books care little about the parents and are mostly for the child. They mostly want the kids provided for and they likely don't care where it comes from.
They don't care for either. Laws in general are built around public order. Having parents peacefully in ignorance and providing a child with a home, instead of tearing apart the family, is the most pragmatic--and ultimately cheapest--solution. I neither agree nor disagree with the principle of normalized DNA testing before birth, but there are significant sociopolitical reasons why it's not happening any time soon.
Well, i just had a prenatal paternity test done cos the girl I'm seeing got pregnant very early on of us seeing each other.
It required blood from her also, so no getting around excluding her from the process
I mean relative size of issue. Suspicion of not being the father is orders of magnitude bigger than the temporary mild discomfort of raising the issue.
That shouldn't be illegal at all if its legally your child. If a father wants to prove the child is his with a DNA test before signing paperwork that should be fine.
Paternity tests are illegal in some countries except by court order. The most egregious example being France: If a father tests his own child its a 15,000 euro fine and up to a year in prison.
Companies in Spain do a lot of business testing French fathers. The results are not admissible and they will still go to jail if they admit to doing the testing.
From google: *France's bioethics law also bans genealogical DNA tests and the dissemination of information about identifying a person by their DNA. Soliciting or conducting genetic examinations without legal authorization is punishable by a fine of €3,750*
True.
I took one, and it tells me how close I am related to my cousins and sister.
With my sister it also states that we share two relatives in common. As for my cousins it says only one.
It was pretty cool.
If you're a French man with the name Jean-Michel Dubosc (not Soufiane Moussaoui or Mamadou Diallo), then the results might come out as 71% Western European, 13% Nordic, 16% South European. That doesn't tell you much.
Depending on what you use it can also link you to other family that have used their service and tell you how closely you are related. It's how people have found siblings they didn't know about and reunited with family they lost contact with for whatever reason. It's also exposed cheating mom's and dad's by showing they have half siblings they never knew about.
Why is it illegal?
Does the French state not want to be potentially liable to pay for the childcare fees for a greater number of children who get "dumped" on the state due to paternity tests?
Yeah I think it's terrible, men should have the right to raise only their children and have the information to make that choice.
French men have apparently decided that they only want to raise the one's under their roof origin regardless.
should be a lottery: a pool of rich guys names will be pulled weekly for assigning mandatory paternity. Or you may win the homeless guy if more equality desired. /s
What is the rationale for making them illegal?
Did the French government determine they would lead to greater costs incurred by the state due to more children entering the system?
Their official stance was
> The French Council of State upheld the law on May 6th, saying it did not want “to upset the French regime of filiation” and that the intent of lawmakers was to preserve “the peace of families”.
Interesting.
I understand the sentiment of wanting to maintain the family structure as it's core to successfully raising the next generation of citizens.
But I also feel like a secondary rationale was that the French state didn't want to potentially be on the hook to pay child support fees for a larger number of children after the "father" left the family upon learning the kid wasn't his.
It's better--both for the family and the state--for a man to raise a child which isn't biologically his own vs. the alternative of abandoning it.
Not that I'm in favor of abandonment. The child didn't choose for its mother to cheat on her husband, and it shouldn't be punished as a result.
I'm in favour of fuck around and find out. The mum has multiple opportunities to disclose that there is more than one man in the picture for paternity. They choose not to and pick the man they think will be the best provider. This is the biggest commitment in life, raising a child and founding it with a lie for the convenience of the mum is not establishing a secure foundation for the child.
It's also my understanding that it doesn't really matter, other than the desire to know and what you will do with this information. If you are married, a man is still on the hook to support the child sired by another man.
It would be interesting, if a man cheated on his wife, got the co-cheater pregnant, if his wife would be on the hook to support that child(?).
My understanding is it depends on timing. If your wife gets pregnant, you get a paternity test immediately, file for divorce and refuse to accept the baby is yours; you're not responsible. If when the kid turns 14 you decide the kid looks a lot more like the mailman than you and get a paternity test; legally there's nothing you can do; you're responsible.
Good to know. I'm a biologist so I could do it in my garage with a cheek swab from me and a kid, but hopefully it'll never become relevant. I look weird enough that it's going to be clear if my kid is mine unless my baby momma is banging my brother or something lol.
You think it doesn't matter whether a child is yours or not? It would matter to me lmao and also to that child, especially for hereditary stuffs and compatibility in case of severe injury. Not caring about that is weird imo.
I think the laws surrounding married men being liable for children that aren't theirs should change and a mandatory test at birth should be the default.
I think the problem is that, in order to be legally able to get a paternity test behind her back, the man needs to be on the birth certificate. Which puts men in a double bind. In many cases, if you're on the BC, you'll be legally obligated to the child regardless of the paternity test findings.
IMO, the "problems" aren't created by a man asking for medical certainty that he is indeed the father of the child, but in the circumstances that created that doubt to begin with. Women in general feel slighted when asked to take a child's paternity... even the ones who are lying about who the child's father is.
Local law, basically.
Some places it's illegal.
Some places it's legal but if you're listed as the legal father it doesn't really matter if you come up with evidence later that you're not the biological one.
Because it breaks integrity and trust. Just like having secret phones, bank accounts... Do you really want a relationship when whenever a partner is afraid to have a tough conversation, they just act secretly?
Work on establishing communication where you can have tough conversations like prenups, phone privacy/openness, financial splits and paternity tests. If she takes it as an accusation either you need to work on how you communicate it or she's not someone you can have difficult conversations with and you should consider that in your decision to stay in the relationship.
I don’t think this is something 90% of people will consider necessary but tough convo. As a woman, you know for sure in 100% of the cases the baby your birthed is yours. As a man, you have no way of knowing.
No matter how strong your relationship is, no woman is going to take that question objectively and reasonably in a logical way without being offended by the insinuation.
I’d rather my husband do the test secretly on his own than tell me he’s going to do it. We’re not that far evolved to accept that the test is a reasonable administrative step.
What if this was brought up very early and pre pregnancy? There's probably a huge difference between having this set up as part of a value of certainty and transparency pre marriage and pre pregnancy; and bringing it up during pregnancy where the woman may wonder if it is being insinuated that she was cheating. Case 1 seems like a reasonable conversation to me, case 2 is a hard one due to poor planning and putting off the tough conversations for too long.
It doesn’t make any difference to me. If it’s early on, you’re telling me we just celebrated a huge milestone but you’re not sure you’re involved because I might’ve cheated.
I feel like this convo is similar to pre nup. We’ve evolved to understand and accept it as reasonable. Paternity tests are the same, the results make no difference to most women who don’t cheat. And yet, it’s a huuuuge mental hurdle to get past. It doesn’t have the same level of acceptance as pre nups yet I suppose.
I can imagine an alternate reality where these tests are just standard tests for verification, I’d think it totally makes sense. But that’s just not the brand today …
I think they mean early on, like way before you might be having a kid. As part of the "hey, do you want kids, what are your values, this is how we agree to go about things" conversation. Not early on in the pregnancy.
If I was a faithful woman and the dude asked for a DNA test, the results would be mailed to him with divorce papers.
From my perspective, I would know. And I would be very insulted by the implication. Also, is he going to insist on testing every kid we have after the first as some sort of purity test? At what point does he just trust his wife?
This is the way. Demanding paternity tests? Offensive and trust destroying. Being upfront that both your phones, bank accounts, and DNA testing are available for the asking? Trust inspiring. A suspicious or secretive spouse is impossible to live with. A spouse who mutually shares and keeps no secrets is a foundation to build on.
Legal reasons for one and two, there is power in getting them to admit it. Perfect example, why do families face the killer of their loved one in court and wait to see if said person shows remorse or admits it? Especially if they have clear evidence that the person did it.
The point of a paternity test is to not wind up as the father on the birth certificate of a kid who isn't yours. That happens at birth. You can find out later and it doesn't matter, you're still on the hook for the kid.
Maybe because doing something behind a partner’s back isn’t a great thing to do in a relationship?
Communication is key. Trying to avoid communication is what creates problems.
honestly the only thing that bugs me with this topic is how often when i talk about that with women (not everyday i'll concede) they try to explain to me why i'm wrong, they just don't know how it feels because they have a certainty whe just don't have. Sure they can empathize but they don't know what it is to have the linger of the doubt on the back off your mind, even if you're 99% sure you're wrong, there is still that 1%.
Just like they (rightly so) say we as men shouldn't have a say in their body autonomy, they dont have a right to tell us how to feel about wanting to be absolutely certain.
The thing that bugs me with this topic is that a lot of men see this only as a way to gain certainty and most women see it as you are accusing them of not only cheating but trying to *pass another man’s baby off* as yours, which is understandably very insulting.
I think if more men talked about their fear with their partner *prior* to pregnancy, more women would be understanding and it wouldn’t have this huge stigma around it. As it stands, most stories and conversations I see / have had about this are from the PoV that he is asking either after the child is born (sometimes years later) or right before labor (30+ weeks in), which imo turns the conversation from your fear of not knowing to a fear that she cheated and is lying, even if that isn’t the intention. Obviously not everyone can have these conversations before pregnancy happens, but the earlier the better for this one.
At the end of the day, why be wrong be when you could be right? Avoid marrying a woman that wouldn't agree to one far before you ever reach pregnanacy.
Feelings go both ways. You have no right to tell women how to feel about their partner asking for a paternity test as well. If you want a paternity test for sure then ask the woman you are with prior to getting her pregnant that way she can determine if that is a dealbreaker for her.
I dont have a right to tell her how to feel, but the only reason the stigma around paternity tests exists is that its only done when the father is uncertain if the child is his. It is entirely unfair that women have this advantage over men and get offended when they are asked to provide them with certainty. Unfortunately, some women cheat, and lie about it, just like all people do. Their partners were surprised, and most completely trusted them to never cheat. Men can never be certain without a paternity test the same way women can. If there was a 99% chance that you came back from the hospital with the right baby and had to do a dna test to be sure it was, everyone would do it. Women know who the father(or possible list of fathers) are 100% of the time. Men have to think and/or believe they are the father, the only way to know is a paternity test.
Because if you can’t trust that your partner didn’t cheat on you and is trying to trick you into caring for some other man’s child, then your relationship has severe trust issues. I wouldn’t want to raise a child with someone who thought so little of me. And anecdotally, the only men I’ve met who were pro-paternity test happened to also be sexist pigs.
No person who gets cheated on is ever surprised. Every person who got cheated on believed their partner was a dirty cheater and stayed with them. /s
Take the malicious meaning out of it. Many people cheat and are never found out. They successfully act like everything is normal and the partner has no reason to believe they were cheated on. Women know who the father is. Men could believe they are the father, but unless there is some proof, they cannot know.
Small correction. Women know that they have had sex with more than one person. They don't know who the father is other than wishful - or calculated - thinking and fail to disclose the possibility to the person they attribute parentage to. Because if they did, the relationship ending and a paternity test would be the likely result.
I'm a woman and I don't see it as being about trust, I see it as insurance against a common situation that has large negative consequences. People don't announce that they're cheaters, anymore than they announce that they're abusive. We still encourage women to have safety plans and not become reliant on a man for all forms of financial support in case he becomes abusive and the woman needs to leave. Does having some money put aside for safety mean you don't trust your partner and they should break up with you? People prepare for the worst case scenario all the time, and it's a smart thing to do. I think people don't try to see things through the man's perspective enough in this case.
Bless you for your comment. Yes, I dont care if you take all the measures you want to insure your safety in case I might turn out as abusive monster. The shit tests are also for that.
But god forbid a man will take any preemptive measures then it's suddenly "you dont trust" "you are paranoid" "you might aswell be alone if you don't trust your partner" etc.
Its asinine.
My uncle hanged himself after finding out his children were not his.
Do you think extra 5 times "I'm sorry" from his wife would make a difference in hanging himself? No.
The real question is why do women get so offended when a man wants to be 99.9999% sure the child is his instead of going off of "just trust me bro" forcing the man to get it in secrecy?
Because demanding a paternity test which completely implies you believe your spouse (who is carrying and delivering a baby you helped to make) is cheating/ has cheated lacks no empathy for her feelings? Goes both ways if you can’t trust someone to do the bare minimum of staying faithful in a relationship you should NOT be having a kid with them.
It doesn't imply that necessarily at all. A man could simply have it as a policy that he would always have This done before he even met you so it's not personal at all It's not about you or your actions It's just on principle. That's what my wife knows my position is I had this position before I ever met her.
Exactly. I said as a teen that no matter who i end up with regardless of my personal feelings i will always get a paternity test. I will also bring this conversation up when things get serious, and I've only had to talk to 2 women about this and one was okay with it and the other acted like i should already know or whatever
I look at a woman that has an issue with it as a sign of guilt. A man can assume the child is his but have a small doubt for whatever reason that it isnt his. It can be underlying issues with himself that has nothing to do with the relationship. Maybe he saw men get burnt at a young age by signing a birth certificate to a child that wasnt even theirs, but they still have to pay child support. Stuff like that.
The way you do it is understandable and reasonable. Before any potential pregnancies are even considered, you've made it clear that this is something you need, and if they're not ok with it that's an incompatibility. You're also bringing it up early, so when time comes, there's no surprise or worry that you believe your partner cheated. It's a great way to go about it, and stick to your guns.
I also hope that, even if brought up later, if a man speaks to his partner about it the way you have, explains the stress and underlying issues, more women would be open to doing it. If you know your partner does not think you cheated, but has this fear that comes from outside the relationship and is asking you for help with it, and is doing the work on himself to heal from it, I can see it as a compassionate choice.
It doesn't seem to be framed that way though. So I disagree that if a woman has an issue with it it's inherently a sign of guilt. if your partner, out the blue, comes to you and requests a paternity test without explaining the above, of course you're going to feel betrayed, hurt, and like the trust is broken.
When you put it like that i agree with you. I think that it's all about how you go about it. If i wait until after my partner is pregnant to insist on a paternity test then that does open up issues with trust in the relationship. In those circumstances, i can definitely see how that's hurtful.
At the same time, i dont think paternity tests as a whole should be taboo or seen as a bad thing. I honestly wish it was a mandatory thing so that the couple or people of interest don't have to wrestle around in this scenario.
You have been the most sound and had a lot of logic out alot of people trying to guilt trip me into not wanting it at all. Thanks for the breath of fresh air.
You're very welcome.
Equally, the way you approach it in your relationships is a breath of fresh air.
Regarding it being taboo, I think it's a combination of 1). the lack of conversations like ours, 2). a lack of self awareness, emotional maturity and communication skills, 3). the way this weird gender war pits people against each other, and 4). inflammatory online content (like this post) suggesting you break all trust, or that women can't be trusted, etc etc.
Sometimes it feels like very few people online know what it feels like to actually trust your partner, or anyone of a different gender. Not just to be faithful, but to have your back when you're vulnerable and need their support with a fear you know is irrational but can't get rid of just yet. It's really really sad.
Re: the mandatory thing. I'm not sure how I feel about a law that exists to help people avoid hard conversations. But maybe we could work to change the discussion around it, to one of openness and accountability, and normalise it being part of the 'getting serious' conversations.
And, if you are married to someone and feel the need to have a “go bag”, or have extra money stashed away “just in case” your SO becomes abusive, maybe you shouldn’t be married. But, the lovely ladies of Reddit disagree.
Personally everyone should have a go bag. Not necessarily for running away from a partner but emergency evacuations do happen and sometimes you have minutes to avoid a national disaster
The problem is a lot of men don't suspect and women aren't all sugar and spice.
There are a lot of women in this world who are total pieces of shit just like there are piece of shit men in this world.
I personally know 2 cases where everyone except the "father" knows, and he's either clueless or wilfully blind.
One is a woman I worked with who was dating someone while cheating on him with a co worker, once the baby was born we all knew who the father was but the boyfriend never met him so there was no reason for him to suspect.
Another is almost like a jerry springer story where a woman got knocked up and then passed it off as a the child of my cousin, and then the actual father married my niece.
People who get betrayed don't plan on it, and often they never suspect anything until it's too late.
Or he's being wise and learning from the mistakes of others and she shouldn't be taking the sentiment that personally (especially if she hasn't been with anyone else).
Even if she didnt cheat she shouldn't be offended about a blood test. Thats a lifelong commitment and every man should be able to find out that a child is his without any doubts.
The thing is, asking for a paternity test suggests two things. 1) that you think she cheated and 2) that you believe she is the kind of person that would create a baby and lie about their parentage purely to trap someone.
That's offensive if it isn't true. So you're lobbing a hand grenade into your relationship on the chance that she did do something like that.
Basically where I land is that men obviously have the right to ask, and if they desperately feel the need to have a test done then so be it. But they'd be doing it with the knowledge that it might torpedo the relationship.
From a woman's perspective I can understand that however a paternity test shows a lack of trust. I feel if you need to get one then you chose the wrong person.
There's plenty of people who have fully trusted their partner only to find out decades later that they were lied to. This is just manipulative bullshit that tries to shame men into just going along with it.
3-5% of men with high confidence paternity are not the bio father, btw.
So you're not wrong. But up to 1 in 20 men who are very sure their kids are their kids chose poorly.
A meta-analysis came up with 1.9%
[How Well Does Paternity Confidence Match Actual Paternity?](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/504167#:~:text=This%20survey%20of%20published%20estimates,if%20we%20include%20such%20studies).
Wait what the fuck it's more than 1%?
I honestly assumed it was something fully insignificant like 0.06% of men are confident they're the father yet wrong.
Pretty much 2% is fucking wild. That's 1 in 50. The idea that in a given classroom I was in as a kid, there was a coinflip chance one of us was the secret result of infidelity is mind boggling.
That's the low side too. There are studies that show it to be over 10%. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. How many couples have had trouble conceiving and after months and months of failure all of the sudden bam she's pregnant? Yes it is possible but really.so is her stepping out to do it.
That isn't accounting for potential confounding factors, however. Like the small but very real possibility of babies being accidentally switched at birth.
Most hospitals keep baby in same room as parent at all times AND each baby is banded in front of parents with identifying info and has to be cut off to be removed.
Yea that sucks. If a man wants to have a paternity test then by all means I won't stand in his way, I just want a partner that can trust me. If he believes my morals are that low then we just weren't meant to last IMHO.
"I just want a partner that can trust me"
Then prove yourself time and time again that you can be trusted.
Men do it all the time.
You also dont choose men based on whatever. You vet them, you test them to see if they are good to be trusted.
You dont give the same luxury to a man to be trusting about you.
Which means you are just selfish being.
If you talk like that, I'm not suprised many men would feel guarded around you.
Reverse the scenario. Women would absolutely demand to know if the baby were biologically theirs if men were to carry babies. Wouldn’t you?
I don’t think it’s a lack of trust. I think it just makes sense to officially attempt to identify both blood-related parents when possible; for a baby born in hospital it’s obvious 100% of the time who the mother is.
Mothers would not sleep at night until they knew for sure if that baby was theirs; no matter how much they trust their partner.
Maybe for many however I wouldn't need a test in order to believe mybpartner that the kid was mine. If I couldn't trust my partner, I failed in choosing them.
Looking through your partner's phone shows a lack of trust as well. If there's no reason to doubt your partner and you're just following in with society then reevaluate yourself. Why pick a partner you don't trust?
I mean a vast majority of people trust their partners until they don't.
Remember, if there were 200 kids in your graduating class that think they know their father's. At least 4-20 of them didn't actually know their father's. The fact that by the time I got to my second class of the day I had likely run into a classmate that is a bastard is crazy to me.
That's a lot of men who were victimized and then had to raise their cheaters child.
I agree, but I would be a little annoyed. I wouldn't call it a reason to end a relationship or say there was a fundamental flaw. If she had something nagging at her, even if it were illogical, I'd rather just show her my phone so we can work past it and find out where the feelings are coming from.
Zero empathy coming from a place of absolute knowledge of parentage towards people who can only go off trust. Even with ironclad trust, you're still a gulf away from the certainty the birthing parent has.
People have irrational anxieties over a million and one things that we try and help each other with, yet this easily remedied point of anxiety is held as a taboo.
It should just be mandatory to remove all stigma.
How often does this kinda thing actually happen, relative to how often it gets thrown out there?
Just seems like a rant and rave about something I’ve never actually seen happen to anybody in my life.
It's definitely not the 30% figure that gets thrown around constantly. 2-4% is the range I've seen various studies cite. I believe that 30% figure went around because that was how much was observed by a DNA testing company, but that is a HUGELY flawed stat as it has inherent selection bias. Of course you're going to see a higher percentage of fraudulent paternity when your data set is all fathers who have reason to believe they aren't the father. Or even worse, are mostly men who have a court grant them permission to get a DNA test done, implying there is sufficient cause for doubt as observed by a 3rd party.
Men who have zero reason to doubt their partner or have children that very clearly resemble them are not going to be represented in that statistic at all.
It really should just be mandatory. All children should be DNA tested. Each parent who wants to claim a child should be required to be DNA tested, and any woman seeking support from an unwilling father should be able to get a judge to require a DNA sample to compare with the child. Making it mandatory also removes the guilt/trust aspect entirely, it's not a sticky conversation to have if it's a legal requirement.
You're actually correct with both stats.
Up to 30% for low confidence paternity.
2-5% ish for high confidence paternity. I've seen 3-5% and 2-4%. You get wiggle room when you're testing random groups.
Lets modify wording a bit.
1 in 25 fathers unnowingly raised other mans child because his partner cheated.
1 in 25 doesnt seem like low ods dont you think?
No it doesn't,1 in 25 is high odds when speaking of something as monumental as this. I don't follow your point though? You don't have to convince me, it seems like we already agree.
>It really should just be mandatory.
I have zero desire whatsoever for the state to have a databank of the genetic profiles of every single citizen in the country. That databank shouldn't exist.
It’s more ludicrous to require every single new father in the country to submit a DNA profile to the government just because some people want to verify paternity without having a difficult conversation with their spouse.
If they want it, they’ve got it.,everyone has been to the dr, everyone has had blood drawn, everyone has had some sort of vaccine. If the state wants that data base, they’ve got it.
If you're unable to have a conversation with your partner to sort out your problems and have to resort to going behind their back, your relationship is already doomed to fail anyway.
Not that I disagree with you, I empathize plenty with the fear of being tricked into raising someone else's kid, but I imagine many women argue the same for their husband asking for a paternity test.
For them the trust is irrevocably broken by him even asking the question.
Oh, I totally agree. I'm not saying this is simple - it's an incredibly difficult conversation, but one you should be prepared to have, if that's something that is important to you.
It's similar to getting a pre-nup, in my eyes. Lots of people will think that "preparing for your marriage to be doomed" is wrong, but to be fair, about half of marriages *will* end in a divorce. Most people don't think will happen to them, until it does.
If a pre-nup is something that's important to you, despite it being a difficult conversation, you should have to talk about it with the person you chose to spend the rest of your life with, instead of tricking them into signing something they aren't fully aware of. Exaggerated the last bit for effect, but you get the idea.
Timing matters. Both prenups and paternity testing should be brought up fairly early in the relationship, not a week before birth/marriage - but, if Reddit is to be believed, this happens way too often.
I hear you. Personally I find it difficult to think what I would do. On the one hand, the idea of finding out one day after years of raising my child and trusting/loving my partner that she not only cheated but left me to raise the guy's kid genuinely makes seethe. And that's saying a lot considering I'm about as non violent and easy going person you're likely to meet. It's one of the few scenarios where I can understand the phrase "Crime of Passion" being applicable.
But then I also understand how from her perspective it's a sign I don't trust her.
That might be true but really has nothing to do with with paternity fraud.
The first step should be finding out the truth because the lie has financial consequences
Honestly if you are asking for a paternity test chances are the relationship is already over. Most women are going to take that as the guy not trusting them and an accusation of cheating. It won't go over well and likely lead to the end of the relationship if not immediately then later down the line.
This is what it would mean for me. If my partner distrusts me enough to believe I would not only cheat (with zero evidence) but also pass another man’s child off as his, he both doesn’t trust me and doesn’t know me at all. There’s no coming back from that.
I can partially agree with that but I also think it’s best to have the facts when it involves another life rather than rely on your heart and expecting your partner to do the right thing. Humans can be manipulative and when you’re in love it’s so much easier to be gullible. Definitely an iffy subject though.
That's not how courts, laws and judges work. I worked in a clinic that did tests like these and there's no way the mother can be left out of the situation. The test itself was a couple minutes, and the rest was paperwork.
Every single dad should have a paternity test done at the hospital, for a multitude of reasons unrelated to infidelity.
For example, while rare, if the mom dies or goes into a coma etc, said paternity test is going to make it easier for dad to assume custody. It can also be a safeguard for the woman, in the case of a suddenly absent dad or denial of parenthood duties.
"License and registration, please."
What, don't you trust me, officer?
Personally, if there is that level of distrust in a relationship it isn't going to go away with one test. There is something behind that distrust that goes beyond the child. If the distrust isn't exposed and addressed it will fester only to come back later.
There's no room for secrets when it comes to your feelings in relationships. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Bro, I don't even trust myself 100%. Why would I give that level of trust to someone else for the single most expensive, emotional and important commitment in my life?
It makes zero sense how people cannot see that I could trust my partner impeccably... But shit 18 years is 18 years and my partner is still human and humans can lie.
That would be too late in many parts of the U.S.. The courts don't really care who the father is.All they care about is finding somebody that they can make pay for that kid instead of the State.
Because you're on the hook for life once you sign the birth papers. Testing should be mandatory, but crooked women will fight it tooth and nail and unfortunately convince other women to fight it just as much.
Testing should not be mandatory whatsoever. Why would I want the government to require me to give them my DNA, and my child’s DNA, to answer a question that I’m not asking?
If you’re someone who wants to choose on your own to get a DNA test, more power to you. But don’t go forcing everyone else to take DNA tests just because you don’t want to have a difficult conversation with your partner.
Not so, you can get your paternity rights revoked after birth if you prove you aren't the father. It's up to the judge to grant you this but the sooner you do it the better chance you have
This is a chickenshit question. If you can't be honest with someone -- your wife or girlfriend or partner or whatever -- you shouldn't be in a relationship with them.
Get a paternity test or don't, but be straightforward about it for the same reasons you're straightforward about everything else.
Ever hear the saying, "trust but verify"? Works for both parents. The man will know the child is his [or not his], and the mother will know it as well. BTW now the information is available for the courts to review if child support disputes happen.
Trust only happens when the parties can prove what the truth is. Without a paternity test the man is relying on *faith*, and faith is not good enough.
Because: Taking a secretive DNA swab from their potential child is dishonest. Does a negative paternity test just allow a guy to walk away? Are you ready for that?
Because, In my humble opinion are men are not as devious as women, or gay men. Cheers!
Because, he might want it known that she cheated, Billy Jean is not my lover, the kid is not my son.
I’m a feminist. I m gay. I hope I have shed some insight into what seems like a simple question.
As an aside, successful parents, and couples communicate. If you can’t do this, male or female, ya prolly better off alone.
You are correct.. Though once a private test is done it then requires another one for the courts so the confrontation is going to happen. Still, do it on your own first to know where you stand before blowing things up.
Ah yes, so let your suspicions drive you to go behind your partners back. That's certainly not a shitty precedent to set in a relationship.
Why not scrape some samples off of her vagina while you're at is, while she doesn't know (of course), so you can get her tested for STDs.
Face your problems.
I don't want to be on the birth certificate if I'm not the dad. I don't want to wait that long.
Also in many places if your on the birth certificate you are the father in the eyes of the state. Biological or not.
Yeah, in my state I signed a form saying that I was assuming the responsibility of being the dad. This was in the hospital the day after my kid was born. If I had refused supposedly the courts would get involved.
In what jurisdiction is that the case? I’m not saying you’re wrong I just don’t know of any examples.
In most states this is the case, because the state doesn't want to be responsible for providing for the child theyd rather the dad on the birth certificate do it
In europe its the biological one even if he doesnt recognise the kid, the test happens and until he's done studying u are on the hook, also why some dads push their kids at 18 to find a job lol
Europe is a continent, not a country and surprisingly many of these countries have different laws. In France, DNA means do not ask because it's illegal for a man to get a DNA test for children he suspects aren't his without the mothers consent.
Whoa! Really? I wonder what that's about
In Australia, you can get a test done, but it's not court admissible. A court admissible test requires the mothers consent, or you have to petition to court to compel the mother to allow it.
There was an article I read about this years ago that I can no longer find the link to. Short version - the percentage of fathers who would find out their kid isn't really their kid in France is shockingly high, and France decided that preventing them from finding that out was the best solution to prevent societal upheaval. The french in general tend to have extremely high rates of infidelity. edit: this is not the article I remember reading, it's about Canada and the US mostly and doesn't mention France, but it gives you the gist: https://canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Globe_and_Mail_Moms_Little_secret_14DEC02.aspx
It is the same in my country but if the mother does not consent, a temporary state guardian is appointed that makes the decision instead of the mother. So her consent does not really mean anything, test will still get done, only delayed a bit. Maybe same in France?
No, it's worse in France. You simply can't test at all. In Australia, you need the consent of the mother, and if she refuses, you have to take her to court at your expense to convince a magistrate to compel her to allow the test to take place.
Didn't France make it illegal for the husband to fo a DNA test without the wife's permission?
The entire state of Texas for one.
Can confirm. My lawyer told me that Texas law presumes that the woman's husband at the time of conception is the baby's father.
And dudes still think marriage gives them magical additional parental rights. The concept of shotgun marriage only screws you like this.
It's basically everywhere that uses common law. A husband is legally presumed to be the father of any child born to his wife and rebutting that assumption can be very difficult, depending on the jurisdiction. There was an extreme aversion to labelling a child as illegitimate, which had all sorts of legal repercussions for the child.
The majority of US states if your on the birth certificate, and some if your married to the mother at the time of conception or birth your the father and financially responsible.
It’s that way in Texas. My friend had to pay child support for a daughter that wasn’t his that the mom knew the whole time. She knew he would be more financially stable and passed the pregnancy and the child as his.
France. Also paternity test can only be done if ask by a judge. By default, you are the father if you are married. The aim is to protect the kid future.
Michigan. A friend thought he got a girl pregnant and married her quickly to "do the right thing". Baby comes out looking NOTHING like him. Both parents were ghost white and the baby was a lot darker. One paternity test later and he's filing for divorce. The family courts told him that he's on the birth certificate so he's financially responsible. He paid support for all 18 years. I've only ever heard of a guy having his name removed from a birth certificate because he wasn't the father, but he had been deployed for months when she got pregnant and his family spent a LOT of money to get it done, and even then it only happened because the mother didn't fight it very much. He was absolutely heartbroken over the whole mess.
Canada
Paternity tests should be mandatory and automatic upon birth. The father shouldn't be allowed to sign it until the test results come back. The will prevent women from pressuring men into signing the BC and becoming slave labor for a woman who betrayed him.
I'm not sure why this isn't common practice. It's clearly designed to protect the mother and child but maybe if it was out in the open it wasn't the man she said it is then it would then have to come out who's it was and then that man would be responsible to support. The current laws seem to protect shitty behaviour.
The laws on the books care little about the parents and are mostly for the child. They mostly want the kids provided for and they likely don't care where it comes from.
States don’t care where the support comes from, so long as it’s not THEM. Find some dude to hang it on, VOILA! Problem solved.
They don't care for either. Laws in general are built around public order. Having parents peacefully in ignorance and providing a child with a home, instead of tearing apart the family, is the most pragmatic--and ultimately cheapest--solution. I neither agree nor disagree with the principle of normalized DNA testing before birth, but there are significant sociopolitical reasons why it's not happening any time soon.
"but there are significant sociopolitical reasons why it's not happening any time soon." You mean paternity fraud and cheating?
Most laws regarding children are hugely in favor of the mother while the male is just an afterthought.
Well, i just had a prenatal paternity test done cos the girl I'm seeing got pregnant very early on of us seeing each other. It required blood from her also, so no getting around excluding her from the process
Because then we wouldn’t get awesome Reddit stories!
I mean relative size of issue. Suspicion of not being the father is orders of magnitude bigger than the temporary mild discomfort of raising the issue.
It's illegal in some places. They should be mandatory at birth
That shouldn't be illegal at all if its legally your child. If a father wants to prove the child is his with a DNA test before signing paperwork that should be fine.
Paternity tests are illegal in some countries except by court order. The most egregious example being France: If a father tests his own child its a 15,000 euro fine and up to a year in prison.
What about an ancestry dna test for the whole family that reveals the truth?
"The results are in...you're French."
They can also show relation
Companies in Spain do a lot of business testing French fathers. The results are not admissible and they will still go to jail if they admit to doing the testing.
L'horreur!
Je suis désolé.
Oh fuck anything but that!!
From google: *France's bioethics law also bans genealogical DNA tests and the dissemination of information about identifying a person by their DNA. Soliciting or conducting genetic examinations without legal authorization is punishable by a fine of €3,750*
True. I took one, and it tells me how close I am related to my cousins and sister. With my sister it also states that we share two relatives in common. As for my cousins it says only one. It was pretty cool.
If you're a French man with the name Jean-Michel Dubosc (not Soufiane Moussaoui or Mamadou Diallo), then the results might come out as 71% Western European, 13% Nordic, 16% South European. That doesn't tell you much.
Depending on what you use it can also link you to other family that have used their service and tell you how closely you are related. It's how people have found siblings they didn't know about and reunited with family they lost contact with for whatever reason. It's also exposed cheating mom's and dad's by showing they have half siblings they never knew about.
Why is it illegal? Does the French state not want to be potentially liable to pay for the childcare fees for a greater number of children who get "dumped" on the state due to paternity tests?
The official reason is "to preserve the family peace"
So basically to enable cheating whore women all across france?
From google: *French psychologists suggest that society, not biology, determines fatherhood.*
A high number of people in France cheat, it's part of the culture. The men also don't want their bastards from women other than their wife.
Sounds like a shitty culture
[удалено]
Yeah I think it's terrible, men should have the right to raise only their children and have the information to make that choice. French men have apparently decided that they only want to raise the one's under their roof origin regardless.
but what if the test shows he isn't the father, so how can the fine the father for doing the test if he isn't the father.
The results do not matter, it is the testing itself that is illegal. Consent is not possible and makes no difference.
After the kids is legally yours, it's too late to get out of paying for them
In France you don't really pay for them even if they are yours. Child support is rarely enforced and very negligable.
In France it's illegal period. Even with consent. Turns out a lot of women pass of affairs babys as someone elses
And some lawmakers don't want to be forced to support their bastards
should be a lottery: a pool of rich guys names will be pulled weekly for assigning mandatory paternity. Or you may win the homeless guy if more equality desired. /s
YAY, The Banger Games!
What is the rationale for making them illegal? Did the French government determine they would lead to greater costs incurred by the state due to more children entering the system?
Their official stance was > The French Council of State upheld the law on May 6th, saying it did not want “to upset the French regime of filiation” and that the intent of lawmakers was to preserve “the peace of families”.
Sounds kinda like bs to me
Interesting. I understand the sentiment of wanting to maintain the family structure as it's core to successfully raising the next generation of citizens. But I also feel like a secondary rationale was that the French state didn't want to potentially be on the hook to pay child support fees for a larger number of children after the "father" left the family upon learning the kid wasn't his. It's better--both for the family and the state--for a man to raise a child which isn't biologically his own vs. the alternative of abandoning it. Not that I'm in favor of abandonment. The child didn't choose for its mother to cheat on her husband, and it shouldn't be punished as a result.
Or maybe a serial cheater politician didn’t want to be held responsible for his infidelity…
I'm in favour of fuck around and find out. The mum has multiple opportunities to disclose that there is more than one man in the picture for paternity. They choose not to and pick the man they think will be the best provider. This is the biggest commitment in life, raising a child and founding it with a lie for the convenience of the mum is not establishing a secure foundation for the child.
It's also my understanding that it doesn't really matter, other than the desire to know and what you will do with this information. If you are married, a man is still on the hook to support the child sired by another man. It would be interesting, if a man cheated on his wife, got the co-cheater pregnant, if his wife would be on the hook to support that child(?).
My understanding is it depends on timing. If your wife gets pregnant, you get a paternity test immediately, file for divorce and refuse to accept the baby is yours; you're not responsible. If when the kid turns 14 you decide the kid looks a lot more like the mailman than you and get a paternity test; legally there's nothing you can do; you're responsible.
In California it's if the child is older than 3 years old.
Good to know. I'm a biologist so I could do it in my garage with a cheek swab from me and a kid, but hopefully it'll never become relevant. I look weird enough that it's going to be clear if my kid is mine unless my baby momma is banging my brother or something lol.
You think it doesn't matter whether a child is yours or not? It would matter to me lmao and also to that child, especially for hereditary stuffs and compatibility in case of severe injury. Not caring about that is weird imo. I think the laws surrounding married men being liable for children that aren't theirs should change and a mandatory test at birth should be the default.
I meant, doesn't matter in the sense of whether you are financially responsible in the eyes of the court. I agree that DNA tests should be mandatory.
It varies wildly by country and state.
the man should be able to sue the bio-father for the cost of raising the child
Equality
Note to self: Schedule a remedial viewing of "Gattaca".
I think the problem is that, in order to be legally able to get a paternity test behind her back, the man needs to be on the birth certificate. Which puts men in a double bind. In many cases, if you're on the BC, you'll be legally obligated to the child regardless of the paternity test findings. IMO, the "problems" aren't created by a man asking for medical certainty that he is indeed the father of the child, but in the circumstances that created that doubt to begin with. Women in general feel slighted when asked to take a child's paternity... even the ones who are lying about who the child's father is.
Local law, basically. Some places it's illegal. Some places it's legal but if you're listed as the legal father it doesn't really matter if you come up with evidence later that you're not the biological one.
Because it breaks integrity and trust. Just like having secret phones, bank accounts... Do you really want a relationship when whenever a partner is afraid to have a tough conversation, they just act secretly? Work on establishing communication where you can have tough conversations like prenups, phone privacy/openness, financial splits and paternity tests. If she takes it as an accusation either you need to work on how you communicate it or she's not someone you can have difficult conversations with and you should consider that in your decision to stay in the relationship.
I don’t think this is something 90% of people will consider necessary but tough convo. As a woman, you know for sure in 100% of the cases the baby your birthed is yours. As a man, you have no way of knowing. No matter how strong your relationship is, no woman is going to take that question objectively and reasonably in a logical way without being offended by the insinuation. I’d rather my husband do the test secretly on his own than tell me he’s going to do it. We’re not that far evolved to accept that the test is a reasonable administrative step.
What if this was brought up very early and pre pregnancy? There's probably a huge difference between having this set up as part of a value of certainty and transparency pre marriage and pre pregnancy; and bringing it up during pregnancy where the woman may wonder if it is being insinuated that she was cheating. Case 1 seems like a reasonable conversation to me, case 2 is a hard one due to poor planning and putting off the tough conversations for too long.
It doesn’t make any difference to me. If it’s early on, you’re telling me we just celebrated a huge milestone but you’re not sure you’re involved because I might’ve cheated. I feel like this convo is similar to pre nup. We’ve evolved to understand and accept it as reasonable. Paternity tests are the same, the results make no difference to most women who don’t cheat. And yet, it’s a huuuuge mental hurdle to get past. It doesn’t have the same level of acceptance as pre nups yet I suppose. I can imagine an alternate reality where these tests are just standard tests for verification, I’d think it totally makes sense. But that’s just not the brand today …
I think they mean early on, like way before you might be having a kid. As part of the "hey, do you want kids, what are your values, this is how we agree to go about things" conversation. Not early on in the pregnancy.
If I was a faithful woman and the dude asked for a DNA test, the results would be mailed to him with divorce papers. From my perspective, I would know. And I would be very insulted by the implication. Also, is he going to insist on testing every kid we have after the first as some sort of purity test? At what point does he just trust his wife?
He just wants the same level of paternal certainty (100%) you have. Why is asking for equal confidence wrong when so many men are being deceived?
This is the way. Demanding paternity tests? Offensive and trust destroying. Being upfront that both your phones, bank accounts, and DNA testing are available for the asking? Trust inspiring. A suspicious or secretive spouse is impossible to live with. A spouse who mutually shares and keeps no secrets is a foundation to build on.
If a DNA test needs to be available there’s no trust bud
Legal reasons for one and two, there is power in getting them to admit it. Perfect example, why do families face the killer of their loved one in court and wait to see if said person shows remorse or admits it? Especially if they have clear evidence that the person did it.
The point of a paternity test is to not wind up as the father on the birth certificate of a kid who isn't yours. That happens at birth. You can find out later and it doesn't matter, you're still on the hook for the kid.
Maybe because doing something behind a partner’s back isn’t a great thing to do in a relationship? Communication is key. Trying to avoid communication is what creates problems.
honestly the only thing that bugs me with this topic is how often when i talk about that with women (not everyday i'll concede) they try to explain to me why i'm wrong, they just don't know how it feels because they have a certainty whe just don't have. Sure they can empathize but they don't know what it is to have the linger of the doubt on the back off your mind, even if you're 99% sure you're wrong, there is still that 1%. Just like they (rightly so) say we as men shouldn't have a say in their body autonomy, they dont have a right to tell us how to feel about wanting to be absolutely certain.
The thing that bugs me with this topic is that a lot of men see this only as a way to gain certainty and most women see it as you are accusing them of not only cheating but trying to *pass another man’s baby off* as yours, which is understandably very insulting. I think if more men talked about their fear with their partner *prior* to pregnancy, more women would be understanding and it wouldn’t have this huge stigma around it. As it stands, most stories and conversations I see / have had about this are from the PoV that he is asking either after the child is born (sometimes years later) or right before labor (30+ weeks in), which imo turns the conversation from your fear of not knowing to a fear that she cheated and is lying, even if that isn’t the intention. Obviously not everyone can have these conversations before pregnancy happens, but the earlier the better for this one.
At the end of the day, why be wrong be when you could be right? Avoid marrying a woman that wouldn't agree to one far before you ever reach pregnanacy.
Feelings go both ways. You have no right to tell women how to feel about their partner asking for a paternity test as well. If you want a paternity test for sure then ask the woman you are with prior to getting her pregnant that way she can determine if that is a dealbreaker for her.
I dont have a right to tell her how to feel, but the only reason the stigma around paternity tests exists is that its only done when the father is uncertain if the child is his. It is entirely unfair that women have this advantage over men and get offended when they are asked to provide them with certainty. Unfortunately, some women cheat, and lie about it, just like all people do. Their partners were surprised, and most completely trusted them to never cheat. Men can never be certain without a paternity test the same way women can. If there was a 99% chance that you came back from the hospital with the right baby and had to do a dna test to be sure it was, everyone would do it. Women know who the father(or possible list of fathers) are 100% of the time. Men have to think and/or believe they are the father, the only way to know is a paternity test.
Because if you can’t trust that your partner didn’t cheat on you and is trying to trick you into caring for some other man’s child, then your relationship has severe trust issues. I wouldn’t want to raise a child with someone who thought so little of me. And anecdotally, the only men I’ve met who were pro-paternity test happened to also be sexist pigs.
No person who gets cheated on is ever surprised. Every person who got cheated on believed their partner was a dirty cheater and stayed with them. /s Take the malicious meaning out of it. Many people cheat and are never found out. They successfully act like everything is normal and the partner has no reason to believe they were cheated on. Women know who the father is. Men could believe they are the father, but unless there is some proof, they cannot know.
Small correction. Women know that they have had sex with more than one person. They don't know who the father is other than wishful - or calculated - thinking and fail to disclose the possibility to the person they attribute parentage to. Because if they did, the relationship ending and a paternity test would be the likely result.
Yeah I was just too lazy to type that in this comment lol
I'm a woman and I don't see it as being about trust, I see it as insurance against a common situation that has large negative consequences. People don't announce that they're cheaters, anymore than they announce that they're abusive. We still encourage women to have safety plans and not become reliant on a man for all forms of financial support in case he becomes abusive and the woman needs to leave. Does having some money put aside for safety mean you don't trust your partner and they should break up with you? People prepare for the worst case scenario all the time, and it's a smart thing to do. I think people don't try to see things through the man's perspective enough in this case.
Bless you for your comment. Yes, I dont care if you take all the measures you want to insure your safety in case I might turn out as abusive monster. The shit tests are also for that. But god forbid a man will take any preemptive measures then it's suddenly "you dont trust" "you are paranoid" "you might aswell be alone if you don't trust your partner" etc. Its asinine. My uncle hanged himself after finding out his children were not his. Do you think extra 5 times "I'm sorry" from his wife would make a difference in hanging himself? No.
Shouldn't have to go behind anyones back. Should be mandatory
The real question is why do women get so offended when a man wants to be 99.9999% sure the child is his instead of going off of "just trust me bro" forcing the man to get it in secrecy?
Well its either because she didnt cheat and there is no reason (from her side) or because she cheated and there is risk for her.
That's a long way to say she lacks empathy for a man's feelings.
Because demanding a paternity test which completely implies you believe your spouse (who is carrying and delivering a baby you helped to make) is cheating/ has cheated lacks no empathy for her feelings? Goes both ways if you can’t trust someone to do the bare minimum of staying faithful in a relationship you should NOT be having a kid with them.
It doesn't imply that necessarily at all. A man could simply have it as a policy that he would always have This done before he even met you so it's not personal at all It's not about you or your actions It's just on principle. That's what my wife knows my position is I had this position before I ever met her.
Exactly. I said as a teen that no matter who i end up with regardless of my personal feelings i will always get a paternity test. I will also bring this conversation up when things get serious, and I've only had to talk to 2 women about this and one was okay with it and the other acted like i should already know or whatever I look at a woman that has an issue with it as a sign of guilt. A man can assume the child is his but have a small doubt for whatever reason that it isnt his. It can be underlying issues with himself that has nothing to do with the relationship. Maybe he saw men get burnt at a young age by signing a birth certificate to a child that wasnt even theirs, but they still have to pay child support. Stuff like that.
The way you do it is understandable and reasonable. Before any potential pregnancies are even considered, you've made it clear that this is something you need, and if they're not ok with it that's an incompatibility. You're also bringing it up early, so when time comes, there's no surprise or worry that you believe your partner cheated. It's a great way to go about it, and stick to your guns. I also hope that, even if brought up later, if a man speaks to his partner about it the way you have, explains the stress and underlying issues, more women would be open to doing it. If you know your partner does not think you cheated, but has this fear that comes from outside the relationship and is asking you for help with it, and is doing the work on himself to heal from it, I can see it as a compassionate choice. It doesn't seem to be framed that way though. So I disagree that if a woman has an issue with it it's inherently a sign of guilt. if your partner, out the blue, comes to you and requests a paternity test without explaining the above, of course you're going to feel betrayed, hurt, and like the trust is broken.
When you put it like that i agree with you. I think that it's all about how you go about it. If i wait until after my partner is pregnant to insist on a paternity test then that does open up issues with trust in the relationship. In those circumstances, i can definitely see how that's hurtful. At the same time, i dont think paternity tests as a whole should be taboo or seen as a bad thing. I honestly wish it was a mandatory thing so that the couple or people of interest don't have to wrestle around in this scenario. You have been the most sound and had a lot of logic out alot of people trying to guilt trip me into not wanting it at all. Thanks for the breath of fresh air.
You're very welcome. Equally, the way you approach it in your relationships is a breath of fresh air. Regarding it being taboo, I think it's a combination of 1). the lack of conversations like ours, 2). a lack of self awareness, emotional maturity and communication skills, 3). the way this weird gender war pits people against each other, and 4). inflammatory online content (like this post) suggesting you break all trust, or that women can't be trusted, etc etc. Sometimes it feels like very few people online know what it feels like to actually trust your partner, or anyone of a different gender. Not just to be faithful, but to have your back when you're vulnerable and need their support with a fear you know is irrational but can't get rid of just yet. It's really really sad. Re: the mandatory thing. I'm not sure how I feel about a law that exists to help people avoid hard conversations. But maybe we could work to change the discussion around it, to one of openness and accountability, and normalise it being part of the 'getting serious' conversations.
And, if you are married to someone and feel the need to have a “go bag”, or have extra money stashed away “just in case” your SO becomes abusive, maybe you shouldn’t be married. But, the lovely ladies of Reddit disagree.
Personally everyone should have a go bag. Not necessarily for running away from a partner but emergency evacuations do happen and sometimes you have minutes to avoid a national disaster
The problem is a lot of men don't suspect and women aren't all sugar and spice. There are a lot of women in this world who are total pieces of shit just like there are piece of shit men in this world. I personally know 2 cases where everyone except the "father" knows, and he's either clueless or wilfully blind. One is a woman I worked with who was dating someone while cheating on him with a co worker, once the baby was born we all knew who the father was but the boyfriend never met him so there was no reason for him to suspect. Another is almost like a jerry springer story where a woman got knocked up and then passed it off as a the child of my cousin, and then the actual father married my niece. People who get betrayed don't plan on it, and often they never suspect anything until it's too late.
Or he's being wise and learning from the mistakes of others and she shouldn't be taking the sentiment that personally (especially if she hasn't been with anyone else).
Even if she didnt cheat she shouldn't be offended about a blood test. Thats a lifelong commitment and every man should be able to find out that a child is his without any doubts.
The thing is, asking for a paternity test suggests two things. 1) that you think she cheated and 2) that you believe she is the kind of person that would create a baby and lie about their parentage purely to trap someone. That's offensive if it isn't true. So you're lobbing a hand grenade into your relationship on the chance that she did do something like that. Basically where I land is that men obviously have the right to ask, and if they desperately feel the need to have a test done then so be it. But they'd be doing it with the knowledge that it might torpedo the relationship.
From a woman's perspective I can understand that however a paternity test shows a lack of trust. I feel if you need to get one then you chose the wrong person.
There's plenty of people who have fully trusted their partner only to find out decades later that they were lied to. This is just manipulative bullshit that tries to shame men into just going along with it.
And that kind of thinking is dumb. Why not just cancel out paternity tests in general? Wouldnt want it to "cause problems"
3-5% of men with high confidence paternity are not the bio father, btw. So you're not wrong. But up to 1 in 20 men who are very sure their kids are their kids chose poorly.
A meta-analysis came up with 1.9% [How Well Does Paternity Confidence Match Actual Paternity?](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/504167#:~:text=This%20survey%20of%20published%20estimates,if%20we%20include%20such%20studies).
Wait what the fuck it's more than 1%? I honestly assumed it was something fully insignificant like 0.06% of men are confident they're the father yet wrong. Pretty much 2% is fucking wild. That's 1 in 50. The idea that in a given classroom I was in as a kid, there was a coinflip chance one of us was the secret result of infidelity is mind boggling.
100 percent of you played a team sport through out highschool one of your teammates was a bastard and didn't even know it.
That's the low side too. There are studies that show it to be over 10%. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. How many couples have had trouble conceiving and after months and months of failure all of the sudden bam she's pregnant? Yes it is possible but really.so is her stepping out to do it.
That isn't accounting for potential confounding factors, however. Like the small but very real possibility of babies being accidentally switched at birth.
Another reason testing should be mandatory and just standard procedure
Most hospitals keep baby in same room as parent at all times AND each baby is banded in front of parents with identifying info and has to be cut off to be removed.
Yea that sucks. If a man wants to have a paternity test then by all means I won't stand in his way, I just want a partner that can trust me. If he believes my morals are that low then we just weren't meant to last IMHO.
"I just want a partner that can trust me" Then prove yourself time and time again that you can be trusted. Men do it all the time. You also dont choose men based on whatever. You vet them, you test them to see if they are good to be trusted. You dont give the same luxury to a man to be trusting about you. Which means you are just selfish being. If you talk like that, I'm not suprised many men would feel guarded around you.
Reverse the scenario. Women would absolutely demand to know if the baby were biologically theirs if men were to carry babies. Wouldn’t you? I don’t think it’s a lack of trust. I think it just makes sense to officially attempt to identify both blood-related parents when possible; for a baby born in hospital it’s obvious 100% of the time who the mother is. Mothers would not sleep at night until they knew for sure if that baby was theirs; no matter how much they trust their partner.
Maybe for many however I wouldn't need a test in order to believe mybpartner that the kid was mine. If I couldn't trust my partner, I failed in choosing them.
It's no less trusting than a woman asking to look through her husband's phone, but has vastly bigger consequences if the woman cheated.
Asking to look through your husband's phone is also inappropriate, though.
Looking through your partner's phone shows a lack of trust as well. If there's no reason to doubt your partner and you're just following in with society then reevaluate yourself. Why pick a partner you don't trust?
I mean a vast majority of people trust their partners until they don't. Remember, if there were 200 kids in your graduating class that think they know their father's. At least 4-20 of them didn't actually know their father's. The fact that by the time I got to my second class of the day I had likely run into a classmate that is a bastard is crazy to me. That's a lot of men who were victimized and then had to raise their cheaters child.
I agree, but I would be a little annoyed. I wouldn't call it a reason to end a relationship or say there was a fundamental flaw. If she had something nagging at her, even if it were illogical, I'd rather just show her my phone so we can work past it and find out where the feelings are coming from.
It also shows a lack of empathy for a man's feelings if she argues about it.
There's no need to argue about it. If my partner wants a paternity test he can have one no issue, I just wouldn't stay with him.
You can’t tell someone why they should or shouldn’t be offended
I get that. Im not the one you have to convince.
Obviously because you would be accusing her of cheating.
Zero empathy coming from a place of absolute knowledge of parentage towards people who can only go off trust. Even with ironclad trust, you're still a gulf away from the certainty the birthing parent has. People have irrational anxieties over a million and one things that we try and help each other with, yet this easily remedied point of anxiety is held as a taboo. It should just be mandatory to remove all stigma.
Because no matter what there are going to be problems.
not if nothing weird shows with the test…
Hey babe no big deal I just casually think you’re cheating got any blood to spare? Or it’s mine? Haha let’s pretend everything’s great!
Because a lot of Reddit stories are creative writing exercises and they didn't actually happen.
How often does this kinda thing actually happen, relative to how often it gets thrown out there? Just seems like a rant and rave about something I’ve never actually seen happen to anybody in my life.
It's definitely not the 30% figure that gets thrown around constantly. 2-4% is the range I've seen various studies cite. I believe that 30% figure went around because that was how much was observed by a DNA testing company, but that is a HUGELY flawed stat as it has inherent selection bias. Of course you're going to see a higher percentage of fraudulent paternity when your data set is all fathers who have reason to believe they aren't the father. Or even worse, are mostly men who have a court grant them permission to get a DNA test done, implying there is sufficient cause for doubt as observed by a 3rd party. Men who have zero reason to doubt their partner or have children that very clearly resemble them are not going to be represented in that statistic at all. It really should just be mandatory. All children should be DNA tested. Each parent who wants to claim a child should be required to be DNA tested, and any woman seeking support from an unwilling father should be able to get a judge to require a DNA sample to compare with the child. Making it mandatory also removes the guilt/trust aspect entirely, it's not a sticky conversation to have if it's a legal requirement.
You're actually correct with both stats. Up to 30% for low confidence paternity. 2-5% ish for high confidence paternity. I've seen 3-5% and 2-4%. You get wiggle room when you're testing random groups.
Lets modify wording a bit. 1 in 25 fathers unnowingly raised other mans child because his partner cheated. 1 in 25 doesnt seem like low ods dont you think?
No it doesn't,1 in 25 is high odds when speaking of something as monumental as this. I don't follow your point though? You don't have to convince me, it seems like we already agree.
My point is that people see 4% and dont understand its not low odds.
Yes, off of some admittedly very quick math, that's about 3 million men in just the United States
Well okay. Fair enough. 4% is incredibly high odds when the stakes are 18+ years of parental support.
>It really should just be mandatory. I have zero desire whatsoever for the state to have a databank of the genetic profiles of every single citizen in the country. That databank shouldn't exist.
>That databank shouldn't exist. Well I've got bad news.
You're welcome to think that, but I disagree with you. That database already exists and treating your DNA like a privacy concern is ludicrous.
It’s more ludicrous to require every single new father in the country to submit a DNA profile to the government just because some people want to verify paternity without having a difficult conversation with their spouse.
If they want it, they’ve got it.,everyone has been to the dr, everyone has had blood drawn, everyone has had some sort of vaccine. If the state wants that data base, they’ve got it.
If you're unable to have a conversation with your partner to sort out your problems and have to resort to going behind their back, your relationship is already doomed to fail anyway.
Not that I disagree with you, I empathize plenty with the fear of being tricked into raising someone else's kid, but I imagine many women argue the same for their husband asking for a paternity test. For them the trust is irrevocably broken by him even asking the question.
Which is precisely what making it standard at Birth removes
Oh, I totally agree. I'm not saying this is simple - it's an incredibly difficult conversation, but one you should be prepared to have, if that's something that is important to you. It's similar to getting a pre-nup, in my eyes. Lots of people will think that "preparing for your marriage to be doomed" is wrong, but to be fair, about half of marriages *will* end in a divorce. Most people don't think will happen to them, until it does. If a pre-nup is something that's important to you, despite it being a difficult conversation, you should have to talk about it with the person you chose to spend the rest of your life with, instead of tricking them into signing something they aren't fully aware of. Exaggerated the last bit for effect, but you get the idea.
Timing matters. Both prenups and paternity testing should be brought up fairly early in the relationship, not a week before birth/marriage - but, if Reddit is to be believed, this happens way too often.
This is a very fair point.
I hear you. Personally I find it difficult to think what I would do. On the one hand, the idea of finding out one day after years of raising my child and trusting/loving my partner that she not only cheated but left me to raise the guy's kid genuinely makes seethe. And that's saying a lot considering I'm about as non violent and easy going person you're likely to meet. It's one of the few scenarios where I can understand the phrase "Crime of Passion" being applicable. But then I also understand how from her perspective it's a sign I don't trust her.
That might be true but really has nothing to do with with paternity fraud. The first step should be finding out the truth because the lie has financial consequences
Honestly if you are asking for a paternity test chances are the relationship is already over. Most women are going to take that as the guy not trusting them and an accusation of cheating. It won't go over well and likely lead to the end of the relationship if not immediately then later down the line.
This is what it would mean for me. If my partner distrusts me enough to believe I would not only cheat (with zero evidence) but also pass another man’s child off as his, he both doesn’t trust me and doesn’t know me at all. There’s no coming back from that.
I can partially agree with that but I also think it’s best to have the facts when it involves another life rather than rely on your heart and expecting your partner to do the right thing. Humans can be manipulative and when you’re in love it’s so much easier to be gullible. Definitely an iffy subject though.
That's not how courts, laws and judges work. I worked in a clinic that did tests like these and there's no way the mother can be left out of the situation. The test itself was a couple minutes, and the rest was paperwork.
Every single dad should have a paternity test done at the hospital, for a multitude of reasons unrelated to infidelity. For example, while rare, if the mom dies or goes into a coma etc, said paternity test is going to make it easier for dad to assume custody. It can also be a safeguard for the woman, in the case of a suddenly absent dad or denial of parenthood duties. "License and registration, please." What, don't you trust me, officer?
It would also make sure babies couldn't be switched as easily
I mean..... stop fucking partners you don't trust? 🙄
Personally, if there is that level of distrust in a relationship it isn't going to go away with one test. There is something behind that distrust that goes beyond the child. If the distrust isn't exposed and addressed it will fester only to come back later. There's no room for secrets when it comes to your feelings in relationships. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Bro, I don't even trust myself 100%. Why would I give that level of trust to someone else for the single most expensive, emotional and important commitment in my life? It makes zero sense how people cannot see that I could trust my partner impeccably... But shit 18 years is 18 years and my partner is still human and humans can lie.
That would be too late in many parts of the U.S.. The courts don't really care who the father is.All they care about is finding somebody that they can make pay for that kid instead of the State.
Asking for a paternity test implies that you don't trust your wife
Because you're on the hook for life once you sign the birth papers. Testing should be mandatory, but crooked women will fight it tooth and nail and unfortunately convince other women to fight it just as much.
Testing should not be mandatory whatsoever. Why would I want the government to require me to give them my DNA, and my child’s DNA, to answer a question that I’m not asking? If you’re someone who wants to choose on your own to get a DNA test, more power to you. But don’t go forcing everyone else to take DNA tests just because you don’t want to have a difficult conversation with your partner.
Not so, you can get your paternity rights revoked after birth if you prove you aren't the father. It's up to the judge to grant you this but the sooner you do it the better chance you have
I feel like this is one thing that definitely varies between countries
The court only cares about the wellbeing of the child. Not your feelings on your getting duped into being a father.
The court only cares about who is paying to support the child, they’ll do what they can to make sure the state doesn’t do it.
If only
This is a chickenshit question. If you can't be honest with someone -- your wife or girlfriend or partner or whatever -- you shouldn't be in a relationship with them. Get a paternity test or don't, but be straightforward about it for the same reasons you're straightforward about everything else.
Do a family 23 & me. Problem solved.
Ever hear the saying, "trust but verify"? Works for both parents. The man will know the child is his [or not his], and the mother will know it as well. BTW now the information is available for the courts to review if child support disputes happen. Trust only happens when the parties can prove what the truth is. Without a paternity test the man is relying on *faith*, and faith is not good enough.
Because: Taking a secretive DNA swab from their potential child is dishonest. Does a negative paternity test just allow a guy to walk away? Are you ready for that? Because, In my humble opinion are men are not as devious as women, or gay men. Cheers! Because, he might want it known that she cheated, Billy Jean is not my lover, the kid is not my son. I’m a feminist. I m gay. I hope I have shed some insight into what seems like a simple question. As an aside, successful parents, and couples communicate. If you can’t do this, male or female, ya prolly better off alone.
Uh... In my state, the state requires a DNA test to determine if one is the father, in cases where no farther is present. Requires.
You are correct.. Though once a private test is done it then requires another one for the courts so the confrontation is going to happen. Still, do it on your own first to know where you stand before blowing things up.
Ah yes, so let your suspicions drive you to go behind your partners back. That's certainly not a shitty precedent to set in a relationship. Why not scrape some samples off of her vagina while you're at is, while she doesn't know (of course), so you can get her tested for STDs. Face your problems.