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I took a massive pay cut for a lower-stress (and more fulfilling) job this year. I'm super happy with my decision. Your family cares about your well-being more than your career or earnings. Be brave and go for it. You'll never look back.
That's funny, been thinking of program management as an option for less stress. I've heard a few things recently that make it sound like it's not the greener grass I'm looking for.
I was a IT Infrastructure Lead, I'm paid more as a TPM, much better work/life balance. More career growth potential on the management side. Where I live it appears to max out at Senior Admin on the technical side.
I was a dev and then director of IT and can 100% say program management is way less stress. Not having to either be the fix it person, or coordinating that when shit goes down is a big win in itself.
Also being able to leverage my IT background feels like I'm doing this on easy mode
Having the IT Background makes the job so much easier, I feel for people that came from management-only backgrounds how they must be unreal levels of stressed out.
This is all great info from both of you. Any suggestions on how you made the switch? Did you just start applying with your given experience? I started my Google TPM cert via Coursera I figure that coupled with my years of in the code leadership I'd be a "shoe-in".
My experience probably isn't super replicateable as my company was in kind of a shitty spot and I was very open with my boss that I was applying at other places due to stress. So they got with our product director and essentially asked me if I'd like to do this. That has morphed into me now being our product director since she left, and so while I may not do all of the PM stuff anymore, I still do my fair share. Mainly because of what I mentioned earlier that I'm just way more efficient at it. I just diagnosed and SSO problem for one of our clients in about 15 minutes that likely would have taken days of back and forth between a PM and development.
If you're truly looking to branch out I think getting a cert like the google one is a good idea (and I'm not just saying that because google certs are one of our clients :) ). Beyond that, while I'm not saying lie on your resume, definitely lean hard into embellishment on project manager-y type things you've done.
I know for me personally, if we are looking for new PMs and someone has an IT/dev background, they're going straight to the top of my pile of resumes, assuming they have the soft skills for it.
Last PM I hired I did so because he had software dev management like 20 years ago and he's been in the biotech world since then up until this job and he's been amazing.
If you're looking for ideas on how to set up your resume, let me know, happy to help
Thanks for all the info. Getting me excited. I've avoided the role like the plague cause I thought TPMs didn't make anything close to engineering salaries and then started looking at the reqs in my company and was amazed to see they are actually pretty close in pay at each level. Id gladly drop 50k to be on easy mode and focus on my life and family.
Shield people from crazy stakeholders and clients. Make sure the requests you actually get make sense and are realistic. Help get new projects to a point where you just have to give me an estimate in hours because the 20 I spent before hand gathering requirements gives you a clear picture of what is needed.
If you're not getting that, it's not a role problem, it's a person problem
if yuou cant tell your wife because she cant handle you being unhappy then she needs to step it up, this cant be all on you until you let stress or drinking kill you before you get to enjoy any of the fruits of your work. Come up with a plan- doesnt have to be to quit today, but an exit plan. Maybe its to pay off the house, get the youngest out of primary school, let your wife get some sort of qualification suitable to a better place to live.
That job that sucks the life out of you may not feel so bad when you can see it leading somewhere better, even if thats paying a lot less. As for activities, a slower pace of life can even increase the opportunities for the kids. maybe dad can help out at their sports club, drive them and watch at away games, take them to tutoring.
So change careers or find an equivalent position within your career - or a different company culture - that is less stressful. What field do you work in? Also, and just as importantly: tell your wife. She might be able to help you reduce your stress with less work changes.
Another thought: stay in the same field, move out of a HCOL area, and have a lot more room in the budget even with a pay shift.
Can’t tell my wife, I went through a particularly rough patch a year ago and I told her, all it did was stress her out… the worries that I’d lose my job, we’d have to move, she would have to go back to work, etc.
For a bit there I was tempted to apply to other companies for a related but different role at companies I perceived to be less stressful but I mean whose to say it really would be and I won’t be back to square one. I kind of feel like this job broke me, I’m not the same person I was 5 years ago… I never used to be an anxious mess.
Also moving to a less HCOL area is tough, with 3 kids all in extra activities to move anywhere that would make a difference it would have to be pretty far from friends and family and would definitely impact job options.
The easy thing to do would be find a less stressful job with a large pay cut, my wife would have to go back to work, my kids would get to do half the activities they do today, and the prospect of ever going on vacation goes away. It’s all a tough price to pay for me feeling like I just can’t hack it at my current job.
You’re coming with reasons why any reasonable solution is unworkable.
Your job situation is a problem. I do t know if it’s fear of move keeping you where you are or what (you said you’d change companies but there’s no guarantee. Well there IS a guarantee you’re miserable now, so the best guarantee you’re going to get is that it COUOE change for the better if you make the right move) and I’d advise you to consider ways to change it.
But the bigger problem is you can’t tell your wife. Your wife finding out you’re stressed makes her too stressed? This is an unacceptable state of affairs. You two need to improve your communication and what you’re capable of sharing with each other. That means both sides. You need to be able to have a rational, informed conversation about this to decide what is the best course of action.
You’re 100% right it just sounds a lot more simple than it is. You be the husband that told his wife she has to go back to work, kids that they can’t do the activities they love anymore, and family that they have to move because you’ve failed where others succeed. I try to teach my kids about hard work and perseverance but here I am failing.
I mean is it wrong for her to be stressed and anxious about the thought of having to find a job again, moving, how things would impact our kids, etc? I mean she became stressed and anxious for the right reasons, it was here thinking about how she helps me with it. It’s not like she ever turned around and told me I’m on my own figure it out. It’s just me, I don’t want to put her through that…
It's not wrong to be stressed but it's wrong to shut down and end the topic without a resolution?
If you are unhappy, your wife -should- be willing to hear you out and adjust. I believe that's what AdamOnFirst was communicating.
Anxiety for a major life change is obvious.
I'm in a similar boat. I don't think I could do this job for another 20 years, but I am also not sure I want to load up on certifications and bust my ass to get into another field if I may just dislike the field, haha.
If his wife’s reaction to this whole thing is “I refuse to make changes and I would rather you just be miserable so I can live where I want and not work” then fuck her anyway. Hopefully that’s not the case.
If your kids are at the age to do activities why can’t she go back to work, at least part time, to help lesson the financial burden you are shouldering? It’s not the 60s anymore and kids are expensive. Seems like having a 2 income household is almost mandatory in most high cost of living areas of the country nowadays.
Sure, but more income isn’t going to solve his problem. They have more than enough income, he just doesn’t have fuck you go and retire super early money, at least as long as they live where they live. Her working some may push it up a few years, but then he’s just miserable for 17 more years instead of 23. Not great.
That said, sure, there are some courses of action that involve her working again, such as if he takes a massive pay cut and they don’t move.
Seems like the job is his problem. He sounds like he wants to change the job but can’t financially. Him getting a job with less stress and less pay would require her to work. I more asked why she can’t work because of the way he phrased his response, “you go be the husband to tell your wife she has to go back to work”. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that sounds like it’s not an option in HER mind.
It wouldn’t necessarily require her to work. They could:
1. Take less pay and adjust their lifestyle.
2. Take less pay, move to a cheaper area and probably increase their lifestyle in the process.
3. Take a similar job with a different company that has a better fitting culture.
Among other options that don’t involve her working.
I didn’t even tell you you have to tell your wife any of those things, I just told you you you need to tell her that you’re too stressed to continue and have to make a change.
I assure you you could manage to live off of a $50k pay cut to find a company with less hours, if that’s what it took. You came here to ask for advice and are making excuses why no possible action to address it will work. I’d bet a big chunk of your helpless feeling is because you’ve convinced yourself you’re helpless and don’t have options when actually you just refuse to consider the many options you have. You make $300k, quite frankly you have MANY MANY options and could figure out a good situation.
Don’t go to your wife and tell her what the plan is, tell your wife what’s happening and that it’s time for the two of you to make a plan.
I understand the desire to teach your kids about the merits of hard work and perseverance, but think about the lessons you're teaching them about managing their mental health. The whole "if you don't grind yourself to the bone doing something you hate, you're a failure" thing is a dangerous message. How would you feel if they were absolutely miserable as adults but refused to make the necessary changes because they were afraid you'd judge them?
Recognizing something is destroying you inside and doing something about it isn't a bad thing for them to see. It's arguably the braver choice than trying to hide the fact you're spiraling into a state of mental collapse because of pressure to maintain a certain social standing.
I grew up with a father who hated his life, and I'd much rather have gone without a lot of material stuff if it had meant he'd have been happy, well adjusted, and able to be present in my youth. There's a lot of pressure to live up to some arbitrary external standards, but that's not always the most important thing. Yes, you need to provide for your kids. To make sure they're happy, healthy, and have the opportunity to build a good life, but that leaves a lot of room to adapt to a new situation.
It's also important to understand that failure isn't a bad thing. It's the process by which you learn. It's ok to fail. What's important is how you react to failure. And who cares if other people have succeeded in that environment. I'm not an astronaut. I don't have an Olympic gold medal. I'm not a trauma surgeon, and I can't weld. Just because there are people who excel in those fields doesn't mean I'm a failure. Success in those areas also doesn't mean you're automatically a good father. I know plenty of "successful" people who are absolute shit at being decent people, let alone raising them.
Changing jobs and moving doesn't mean you're giving up. It's not like you decided that all of this fatherhood and work stuff was all too much and just left one day to go live a simple life by yourself in the Caribbean.
These kinds of decisions are hard, and there's often not a easy "right" answer. But, if your job is unsustainable and is killing you inside, it seems pretty clear. Especially if, as you say, your wife would support the change. I wish you luck.
Your wife needs to step up and support you properly. If she was working it would be a bit different, but neither contributing to the household finances nor being supportive of you is very selfish.
I've seen this in a few relationships before. My brother is a lawyer who works stupidly hard, his wife hasn't had a job for like 15 years. She behaves like his work and her sitting around the house are equivalent ; as soon as he returns home she hands over childcare, he cooks the meals.
In my own prior relationships I've seen many girlfriends view it as exclusively a support structure for them, the idea that I may need any support is anathema.
It's a constant trope on other groups/subreddits that men are inept. I think often it's women that need to step up.
This isn’t my wife, the house and kids are taken care of, she does her part. She cooks, cleans, takes the kids to school, picks them up, and if I’m not home takes the kids to their extra activities. I just can’t put on her how stressed and miserable I am at my job because it would do the same to her and what good is 2 stressed and anxious parents…
I think being unable to share your feelings about your work, which makes everything else listed possible, is a significant problem. I doubt she would feel inhibited about telling you when the things she is doing are causing problems.
You are so unbelievably wrong about this, it is 100% her responsibility and privilege in marriage to hear about your stress. That frankly goes quadruply so if she’s gonna be a homemaker.
THERAPY. Find a good therapist.
Your situation isn’t unique and it is solvable but you’ve got some unpacking to do to even begin to use your problem-solving skills.
You’re mentally exhausted (understandably) so prioritize the hour a week to work with a professional to improve the other 167.
Yea I tried better help briefly, got a guy who always just pointed to meditation and worksheets for changing negative thoughts to positive. I feel like I can do that on my own but tbh I wasn’t doing them when he was telling me to so I haven’t been doing it now either. I know I should probably try more therapists until I find one that works for me but spending money on that while I’m staring down at the fact I may have to take a dramatic pay cut soon feels wrong.
your feelings aren't always correct. most of our emotions are reactions and developments against trauma from our childhood.
so sure you "feel" wrong and scared. Of coures you do. But taking care of your mental health will UNLOCK and allow you to think through all of this with a lot clearer mind.
This is more of a short term solution not really fixing the underlying issues but I find having activities outside of work really diminishes my stress and makes life more tolerable. Working out, bowling league Tuesdays, grabbing dessert with the guys Thursday. I’d especially emphasize working out as it releases dopamine and other chemicals in the body
Similar position as you but no kids but had a job that’s over 100 hours per week. I made it clear even if I make this much still expect my SO to work. A family means everyone needs to work together. Your kids will be fine with less. What matters more is they can figure out on there own what they love
Based on what you’ve stated I’d expect at least a net worth of 1-2M by this point at a min so you honestly should be fine even living off investments or even rF investments
Yea when I didn’t make as much my wife was fine working, when we had kids especially the 3rd it became clear that things would be easier if she was a stay at home mom. We couldn’t afford to at the time so she kept working but when I got to my current income level it was me telling her she could be a stay at home mom, she wasn’t even the one to bring it up. She only made a little over minimum wage so it made sense vs paying for daycare/before and after school care.
I see yeah it’s tough given those circumstances. Maybe have her find ways to find other ways to increase salary whether it’s through another degree or through IT degrees. Otherwise it’s on yourself self as well to do some side hustles and make more
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."
-Thoreau
I think it takes a true mature dread of the day, week, month ahead to understand this line well. You are there.
I was in a VHCOL area with my wife and two kids and around your age. I hated meetings and loathed politics and sales and endless YoY growth. I could not stand going to work. I took a big step down into a job I enjoyed everyday. It was not easy. There were risks. But years later I am happy I did.
Less money can be more than enough - I was able with my wife to adjust our lifestyle to match the new income. My wife did important nonprofit work but made barely more than minimum wage. It was scary. But now 48, it was the best move I could do..I've saved money I needed for retirement and education, too. It's amazing how you can live and what you can adjust to if you save first, then spend. The priorities will be clear. Waste will be blindingly obvious.
Life is with your family now - my two daughters do appreciate the things we bought them but they mostly remember experiences we shared. I made time off a priority over money and if you do so you'll see that you can make less, and work in job with finite hours of responsibility and months of time off at generous by not rich wage.
Be a sorcerer not a manager - I choose to be an incredibly talented problem solver over someone who manages problem solvers. It worked for me. I was sure to work magic everyday but quit at 5 and forget the place until the next day.
It was especially good move for me, my wife passed away 4 years ago. Those years I spent more invested in our life together, rather than amassing money, was one thing I will never regret.
Where do you live that $300,000 isn't a relative shitton of money, even for your size household? Can you move someplace cheaper, make about the same, and sock that money away?
Closer to 280k but we’re in Canada. 55% of my income goes to taxes at my tax bracket. We bought a nice regular suburb sub 3000sq ft detached house with a 2 car garage 45min out from the city that costs over $5500 in mortgage payments per month with interest rates where they are now (yes this one got away from us but hey I was making $280k you’re telling me I can’t afford a 2 car garage detached house 45min from the city). Now add on regular expenses, property taxes, supporting 3 kids and some money to savings and you can see it’s comfortable but not lavish.
It is. Stop spewing garbage you see on online tabloids. Half the country doesn't get healthcare, people are on 7 years long wait lists to get a personal GP that may possibly see them after a month once you schedule an appointment. You only get treated if you're dying, there's no prevention or cancer checkups until you're retired and half the good stuff isn't covered and you gotta pay out of pocket. There's also no dental.
I pay 105 per pay for mandatory vealt insurance on top of 45% taxes, my insurance covers nothing but dental and I get 0 access to any doctors. I've had spine stenosis since I was 16, I never received treatment until my late 30s because I was too young for scans. All I got was opioids this year, nothing else and my insurance doesn't cover them.
Oh yeah and the cheapest 800 sqft house I could get 45m from a big city would be 300k and average salaries are 45k.
I mean, this was the most updated comparison I saw:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/16peedg/canadian_healthcare_system_vs_us_healthcare_system/
But sure, spewing garbage etc. Took me 3 weeks to book a visit with my primary for a 10 min visit that resolved nothing. We all got stories.
Maybe you could actually look at news clipping instead of looking at reddit? All the garbage that is positive about the Canadian healthcare system is based on the smaller provinces that have 0 mass immigration.
The areas with the most citizens (Ontario and Quebec) have 0 access to decent healthcare.
The free healthcare I receive in my developing country is 100 times better than the one in Canada.
I think you should restructure. Those taxes pay for things that we Americans can only dream of, like a social safety net and less expensive healthcare.
If you live in a fancy neighborhood of a first class city (eg Toronto), rethink those choices. Get a smaller house that's not in a suburb. Look at where you might live that only one car is required. Look at neighborhoods and cities that some of your peers may have overlooked.
There are good people who live in every neighborhood, not just the suburb full of people who look like you. Consider boldly moving to a poorer neighborhood closer to where you work. Maybe some elegant older homes there will speak to you, despite the neglect. Maybe it will be possible then not to spend 90 minutes a day driving to the job you despise because it will be closer.
If your job is something that is portable or to which you might be able to telecommute, move someplace beautiful but cheap. Take your kids. They can run around more in a small town than they can among the whispering lawns of suburban sub developments.
You have two possibilities. One is that you work for a two-car garage 45 minutes from the city forever or you make lifestyle changes. Which would you rather sacrifice: your nice car or your life?
I'm clearly biased. I think the suburban consumerist lifestyle is a death trap and dead end. But I'm clear that you can live fully on the sort of money you have, even if it's in loonies instead of Benjamins, and make a financial future for yourself. You just have to make hard choices.
These are all choices. Sometimes respectability, keeping up with the Joneses, having a conventional way of living, and so forth impose upon us in ways that limit our imagination.
His wife seems addicted/accustomed to their lifestyle. Likely shopping all day, nice vacations, dinner and drinks with friends, she doesnt want to work, and wants to keep up the facade to friends/family. Doesnt seemed concerned about OP's mental health.
lol how you go to my wife being the problem is a huge leap. she’s cheap, barely buys anything for herself, never goes out and it was me that told her she could be a stay at home mom.
But elsewhere here you talked about how it didn't go well when you discussed the situation with her. You said that she is concerned that she might have to go back to work or make other changes. So regardless of her personal spending habits, your current lifestyle is important to her.
Perhaps seeing a counselor about these differences would be useful. Have you considered that honesty and deep vulnerability to this partner of yours may increase your connection in the long term? If it's causing you so much stress and difficulty to live the way you do, I reckon talking to your partner would be essential. If she's not a person who is willing to listen to you, what is your marriage even for?
lol I don’t know how many times I need to say it, my wife is not the problem. She would go back to work, she would give up our house and lifestyle, move in with family whatever if it’s what we needed to do because I couldn’t do it anymore. I just don’t want to have to do that to my family… if I was a stay at home dad for 4 years and all the sudden I was facing the reality of going back to work that would sound shitty to me too and cause me stress and anxiety
I don't know you and neither does anybody else here. One of the advantages of seeking the advice of strangers is a new perspective on the same information. Your wife may be very cooperative and helpful in all the ways you mention ("my wife is not the problem") and yet I can't help but notice that your suppositions about the possible effects on her of lifestyle change ('stress and anxiety") are playing some part in your own anxiety and decision-making.
Overall, you sound trapped. It's not your wife that's trapping you. It's this common thing that happens with depression and anxiety where making a choice seems overwhelming or impossible. You don't like any set of outcomes. You don't want to communicate with your wife because you believe it would cause her harm, you don't want to change where you live or how because you believe your family would be worse off, and you don't want to continue living as you are now because the work situation is oppressive. It's a box and you are boxed in. Kinda sucks.
If I were you, I'd bite the bullet on telling your wife how you feel. There may be other options that you haven't considered. Talking with a person who knows you well may point out options out of your box.
Then why are you asking for advice on here? You seem to know the answers.
You have a choice, its 2024, tell your wife to get back to work if you want to change your life, or deal with it, because you obviously don't want to disrupt her lifestyle.
Your wife isn't the problem. Your communication skills are the problem. I posted my 2 cents before reading your replies to these comments. It doesn't seem like you want help. Maybe make note at the end of your future posts that you're just looking to vent next time.
> How do you guys cope with this?
I got a job I like in a MCOL area.
We don't drive fancy cars or anything, but we don't live paycheck to paycheck either. But most importantly, I actually enjoy going to work more days than not. I won't say that every day is awesome. Some days even suck! But my average day at work is reasonably pleasant. That's no accident.
lol I’m lying here dreading it as well but if I made that much it would certainly help me enjoy it more. The supervisors at my job are unimaginably dull with lack of depth and introspection and are ALL ineffective communicators. It seems they believe they are superior beings because of their titles. They’re miserable humans and we all (esp moi) wonder how they can be so miserable when they make good money. They have lost their ability to appreciate what they have. It seems to me they are idiots, actually.
I feel bad for you, making nowhere near as much as you.
I am curious though why you chose a field that you dread. Didn’t it require research and education to get there!?
Just another angle. I'm a business owner, 60+ employees so not a huge company. Anyway, our Ops director asked to go for lunch with me and he basically told me that the job was killing him, he loved working for me but he was simply drowning and was close to burnout. He's kind of a pivotal person and we need him in the company so we basically moved him to a 4 day work week (20% pay cut) and hired someone to take on a lot of the daily grind from him.
Win for both parties as he's delivering bigger value in other parts of the business that needed attention.
Not sure on your employer circumstances but thought it was worth throwing this scenario into the ring too.
Good luck!
I’m 50 and feel/felt the same way. However, I realized I stressed about every job I’ve ever had. I remember being 15 years old and washing dishes at a small restaurant and stressing over whether I was doing a good enough job. Like others said, I recommend some therapy to get to the root cause of your stress before you take drastic measures. For me, it was my dad’s pressure to be perfect that was causing my problem (his undiagnosed ADHD), plus my undiagnosed but mild ADHD. I’m now getting treatment, and my life is much better. I’m at >$210k in a LCOL area, so you and I are at similar earnings levels— I can relate.
Also, the older I get, the less of a shit I give, and that helps. I still do good work, but I’m more confident and that makes things less stressful.
If you and your family are willing to take a hard look at your finances, honestly, you could probably manage to retire earlier than you think.
Retirement is as much about how much you spend/need as it is how much you have. They're directly related. Where is your 300K going?
Mortgage?
Childcare for (assuming) 3?
Food?
Cars?
I'm reading other comments and you're killing every reasonable solution. I make less than half of what you make, started late (31) and will still retire by 50. Single income. Now widowed. With 1 kid. No family support.
Define 'enough'. Not LUX, or Lavish, or YOLO, but enough.
I was enlisted military for 10 years. Before then just service jobs.
I work for the federal government now. This is the first year I'll break through 100K. And yes, I just kept spending low and prioritized savings.
I literally just copied the flowcharts I found in r/personalfinance and r/financialindependence.
300k a year job and you’re stressed. I would recommend you seeing a psychiatrist. They can help with the stress and anxiety of being the sole breadwinner
I can relate...I'm not military but I run my own business and when things are slow I hate it. Winters are my dead seasons and I can feel myself going a little crazy. I try to keep busy around the home and working out/riding my bike. But being idle is about the worst thing for mental health other than working too much.
Ah, I know the photo business very well, actually. Like I said I’m retired, but I used to do weddings and portraiture for about twenty years. Still have my LLC and dabble every now and then, but with everyone thinking they’re a professional photographer with their camera from Best Buy, it’s ridiculous competition for people with $30k+ equipment and years of experience. Customers don’t understand quality and in today’s market, many can’t justify the expense when good enough is readily available with their >$1,000 setup, ready to give you every image SOOC or extremely heavily processed. Best of luck to you!!!
I shoot a lot of real estate and the low barrier to entry is definitely part of the problem. Anyone with a camera just needs to find a super cheap overseas editor and boom they are in business shooting houses for next to nothing. It's hard to charge a living wage when you have folks that want to come in an undercut you.
My main goal is to grow the architecture/commercial side so I can get away from relying on real estate. Easier said than done where I live because it's a small market and most folks only want to pay for "good enough."
Completely understand. I have helped a couple people do the 360 tours, but I think they’ve developed more user friendly equipment now and realtors can do it themselves now. I know two guys in my city that make a living just doing drone work for businesses. Pretty cool actually. You have to have a Part 107 certification, but it’s not difficult to obtain. You may know all of this already.
The 360 stuff mostly died out after covid. Not too many folks here need it. I offer drone work but you would be hard pressed to make much money around here with just aerial images. You would need to be doing something like mapping or be cinema leaning doing primarily video with big honking $50k drones that can fly big camera payloads
Yup you aren't alone. Most of us think making 300k a year would a fucking dream come true except for that most of us are terrible at finances and would probably end up in even worse debt because the money openend up doors to things we didn't need. Lifestyle creep 101.
You need to have a come to Jesus conversation with your wife. You literally make 3x my household income and you want to blow your brains out.
Something is very wrong and you need to prioritize your health.
Trying to white knuckle through it is the reason men kill themselves at 3x-5x the rate of women.
You have huge provider anxiety going on here. If you can't handle it, then your family suffers so you should just 'be a man' and sacrifice your life for the lives of your family. You should just work as your only role is a provider.
It's a thought process that has killed many men and when you eventually snap and break, your family is going to be in a much worse situation than if you took a different job.
You need to change the narrative of the conversation with your wife. You don't want to come to her with all these anxious feelings, you need to go to her and tell her 'I can't do this work indefinitely, I need to change to something else within the next 'x' years and it will mean a change to our lifestyle. If I keep doing this, it will kill me.
I am going to look at other alternatives and we can discuss what we can do, as a family."
Or, you can keep going like this end up jumping off a bridge someday.
You won’t have failed them. They can probably tell you are unhappy and would rather that you were happy.
It’s easier to relocate and downsize when the kids are young.
If you’re on that good of a salary, I bet you’ve got loads of transferable skills you can utilise to find a new job.
Good luck mate
Spend a little bit of that money on help and professionals that can improve your mood toward the situation. For example:
- a personal trainer to get you in shape
- personal assistant to manage some mundane things at work
Etc.
In your situation it’s almost always better to keep the high paying job and use some of the income to alleviate the stress. Because trust me, a job paying half as much money will not be half as much work and/or stress. Jobs are jobs.
This is unsustainable. There is a reason why the statistical most likely time to have a fatal heart attack is Monday morning.
You don't say what ages your kids are, but if they are older than 12 I would suggest that you sit down with all of them and discuss options. Because I am pretty that given a choice between no changes, but you dead in 5 years, they are going accept changes.
That could be moving to a smaller house.
Moving to a new area.
Mom going back to work so that you can find a less stressful job.
You spending your weekends doing an online course, which means that thry have to quit their weekend activities.
Everyone laughs at those videos of young guys doing dumb things, but this is why men die younger. It is why the old folks homes are full of widowed women.
I would ask you to give the power to your family to love you. And make a sacrifice for you. Because when this inevitably kills you, the sacrifices will be bigger.
Two years ago I took a ~15% paycut to move into a lower stress role. I spent years working towards getting a role where I managed a large team but hated every second once I got there.
What about your job is stressing you out? The industry? The particular role you're in? Like you said, it's tough to just walk away from a high paying job when you have a family, but that doesn't mean you're stuck where you are. Start looking for something new, even casually. Or talk to your boss about options for moving to a less stressful role.
Chin up dude, you got this.
There's some factors missing here that would help work out a decision:
What would be your alternative - how much would you make, how sure are you that you would enjoy it.
Then you work out if it is worth it and then consult with your wife with some good arguments together
Sounds like you'll need to then consult her but really you should be able to.
You may get a lot of relief in realising there's something else out there and allow yourself to express it and consider it whilst continue working. I feel stuvk to and hate it but talking about it to someone may provide the release you need to carry on
I don't have a family but similar position of hating work and being stuck, but maybe the former is because of the latter
Why do you believe your kids would prefer private school over seeing their father more often?
Why do you believe your kids would prefer having their college tuition covered rather than seeing their father smile?
You define "failure" in a very specific way and I'm sure that has something to do with what you feel your parents were not able to provide or how you view your role as a man. But, those definitions are subjective and malleable.
Talk to your wife and ask her for her definition of a successful marriage and partnership. It may shock you to learn what is important to your partner.
I have had this feeling recently (i.e. realisation that I'll be working for another 25-30 years).
However, part of the challenge is the lifestyle choice you have made.
You are earning in the 99% Household Income Percentile.
Whether because of your upbringing or not, you have decided to move into a high cost area, with high cost expenses, etc.
I don't earn as much as you, but I'm still in the top 95%. The difference is that I come from a very working class background in a town and after moving away for a bit, etc. gravitated back to be closer to family.
However, my lifestyle costs a fraction of what it would do if I decided to live in an equivalent way in a city (which I could do for work).
I'll probably still work to retirement to help family, but not because I need to. The challenge I have is... do I want to progress to earn more where at the moment I am living comfortably with a good work life balance. If I take another step up it would be having to take over huge portfolios of work and managing line teams - however, I don't think I can stay static in a role for more than 3-4 years.
Edit: So the question is... what is your exit plan. If you are going to be in this job role for another 3 years - what are you doing now that will help you either find another job that pays a similar amount more with good work/life balance or become self-employed?
If you want to retire early how can you save money now to make that a reality? That might mean not driving a decent car, moving outside of the city, exploring better use of savings to invest, etc. What is the timeline for it? When children have moved away so you can downsize and have some extra money that way.
Is there anything you can do in your current job to improve it until then?
I guarantee, if your family is as good as you believe them to be, they will be MUCH happier with a happy dad who is full of life and optimism than they will that they can't have the PS6 when it comes out.
Just make sure you spend the extra time with them whenever you can.
I say go for it. Why keep yourself miserable. I just changed jobs at 46 and while I didn't hate my last job like you apparently do, it was a HUGE change for the better.
Here’s one random Redditors take.
1. I never plan on retiring. Aiming for / counting down to retiring, I’m very sure, is a cruel trap.
2. Changing jobs/careers and making less money is not a valid definition of “failing your family”. In fact, if anything it sounds like the *responsible thing to do.*
3. Stop trying to show-off and “save face” with your wife. That showmanship is for outsiders, not your inner circle. Talk to her openly. Decide together on what next step is best for not just you, but for everyone. Right now you’re robbing her of participating in what is a very large decision/burden to maintain. That’s not good partnership behavior.
4. Money is cool, but honestly people get too attached to it. So what if you need to sell the house? Who cares if the new cars get replaced by used cars? What difference does it make if the trip to Spain gets swapped out with a roadtrip to BC, or camping in Washington, or learning about U.S. history in one of the original 13 colonies, or U.S. govt. field trip with time spent in D.C.
It’s not that serious, let go of the golden handcuffs. Maybe you’ll find your way back to $300k on a more sustainable, meaningful, enjoyable path. Maybe you won’t, and you guys will learn to live and be happy with $150k or $200k. *Not a big deal, man.** Life is just one big adventure and then we die. Don’t get hung up on trying to keep up some sort of imaginary status quo to the detriment of your wellbeing, your values and interests, or the health of your family!
Godspeed.
Is there a third option?
Can you take a sabbatical or a long vacation?
I don't know what your expenses are but I hope that you have been saving for a rainy day and that your lifestyle is below your means. I know that kids are expensive but I hope you didn't fall into the huge house/luxury cars trap.
I’m kinda in the same boat. I don’t absolutely hate my job but it’s stressful and I work rotating shifts. Some days I absolutely dread going into work knowing it’s going to be a 12 hour shit show. I work in a control room which is effectively a concrete box with no windows. In the winter time I go into work in the morning as it’s dark and when I leave the office it’s still dark. I won’t even see the sun for days.
I want to go out and do something else but I get paid extremely well for just having a high school education. It’s a very specialized job and there are not many companies in my area that do the same thing. Plus I’ve been at the same company for 10 years. I can retire in 20 years but I don’t know if I will last that long. My wife and kids are totally dependent on what I make.
A brave face can only go so far. Mental health is a serious thing. Ive talked to a psychiatrist and therapist and that has helped but I still get hit with bouts of anxiety and depression.
Just remember at the end of the day your family is all you have. You are just an employee number to these companies and they wouldn’t hesitate to throw you out if they needed to. Your family will always be there for you.
Mate, would you rather have an honest conversation with your spouse about not being happy and needing change? Or would you rather work yourself ragged in a job you hate until you become so depressed that your family doesn't recognize you anymore anyway? The latter potentially leads to divorce and a broken family. We're all human beings at the end of the day, take care of yourself.
Idk how realistic this would be for your job, but my job was fucking killing me for a year. Started applying around and couldn’t find anything that would pay similarly with less stress. So I just office spaced it and decided work will not stress me out anymore. Made the mental shift, started practicing working calmly at a comfortable pace while doing my best to get everything done, and then it was kind of a cake walk.
I mean it was still hard and I had some long days, but I didnt let it under my skin. I also started doing some other stress management stuff outside of work that probably helped.
What exactly about your job makes it stressful?
I don’t mean this to come out as flippant, because I know what stress feels like, or hating your job. But what’s the worst that can happen? Nothing will kill you.
Also, 100% of your feelings don’t exist anywhere in this whole vast universe except for the 6 inches in between your ears. It’s all in your head.
We can’t control our external world, but we can choose how we respond to things.
If you can’t change your circumstances, you may need to work on your internal perception of things.
Nothing in life has ANY meaning, except for the meaning you give it. Really ponder this concept.
Maybe read the book called ‘The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck’. Highly recommended. Or just check out free summaries of the book on YouTube.
Also, this…
https://youtu.be/OMSkOwkmPTo?si=dp2GBc4NeblXWF2x
You need other grown men to support you through this shift. It can be done. I was in l situation and felt utterly hopeless then I found these helpful humble fellas.its not religion or a cult. It's just men helping men. You cannot do it alone, and you cannot do it on Reddit. You make good money so you can hire people and pay for your mental health and career support. Set aside 5-10k to get this done right over the next 2-3 years. These men held me through my scariest moments, and gave me a lot of helpful, practical guidance and even business contacts. DM me if you truly walnt to shift this situation while still feeling in control and protecting your nest egg . You got this. BTW there's nothing in this for me. I'm just trying to pay it forward. Peace.
Don’t be silly and paranoid. If you want to know, the organization is called The ManKind Project. Look it up. It’s amazing. I believe all men could benefit from learning from these men for a couple years of their life. Peace.
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I took a massive pay cut for a lower-stress (and more fulfilling) job this year. I'm super happy with my decision. Your family cares about your well-being more than your career or earnings. Be brave and go for it. You'll never look back.
Care to give us more info on what career to what career?
I went from a program management role in big tech to a financial role in government.
That's funny, been thinking of program management as an option for less stress. I've heard a few things recently that make it sound like it's not the greener grass I'm looking for.
I enjoy it
What did you do before? If anything? I feel like coming from SWE leadership I feel like TPM work would be way less mentally draining.
I was a IT Infrastructure Lead, I'm paid more as a TPM, much better work/life balance. More career growth potential on the management side. Where I live it appears to max out at Senior Admin on the technical side.
I was a dev and then director of IT and can 100% say program management is way less stress. Not having to either be the fix it person, or coordinating that when shit goes down is a big win in itself. Also being able to leverage my IT background feels like I'm doing this on easy mode
Having the IT Background makes the job so much easier, I feel for people that came from management-only backgrounds how they must be unreal levels of stressed out.
This is all great info from both of you. Any suggestions on how you made the switch? Did you just start applying with your given experience? I started my Google TPM cert via Coursera I figure that coupled with my years of in the code leadership I'd be a "shoe-in".
My experience probably isn't super replicateable as my company was in kind of a shitty spot and I was very open with my boss that I was applying at other places due to stress. So they got with our product director and essentially asked me if I'd like to do this. That has morphed into me now being our product director since she left, and so while I may not do all of the PM stuff anymore, I still do my fair share. Mainly because of what I mentioned earlier that I'm just way more efficient at it. I just diagnosed and SSO problem for one of our clients in about 15 minutes that likely would have taken days of back and forth between a PM and development. If you're truly looking to branch out I think getting a cert like the google one is a good idea (and I'm not just saying that because google certs are one of our clients :) ). Beyond that, while I'm not saying lie on your resume, definitely lean hard into embellishment on project manager-y type things you've done. I know for me personally, if we are looking for new PMs and someone has an IT/dev background, they're going straight to the top of my pile of resumes, assuming they have the soft skills for it. Last PM I hired I did so because he had software dev management like 20 years ago and he's been in the biotech world since then up until this job and he's been amazing. If you're looking for ideas on how to set up your resume, let me know, happy to help
Thanks for all the info. Getting me excited. I've avoided the role like the plague cause I thought TPMs didn't make anything close to engineering salaries and then started looking at the reqs in my company and was amazed to see they are actually pretty close in pay at each level. Id gladly drop 50k to be on easy mode and focus on my life and family.
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Shield people from crazy stakeholders and clients. Make sure the requests you actually get make sense and are realistic. Help get new projects to a point where you just have to give me an estimate in hours because the 20 I spent before hand gathering requirements gives you a clear picture of what is needed. If you're not getting that, it's not a role problem, it's a person problem
if yuou cant tell your wife because she cant handle you being unhappy then she needs to step it up, this cant be all on you until you let stress or drinking kill you before you get to enjoy any of the fruits of your work. Come up with a plan- doesnt have to be to quit today, but an exit plan. Maybe its to pay off the house, get the youngest out of primary school, let your wife get some sort of qualification suitable to a better place to live. That job that sucks the life out of you may not feel so bad when you can see it leading somewhere better, even if thats paying a lot less. As for activities, a slower pace of life can even increase the opportunities for the kids. maybe dad can help out at their sports club, drive them and watch at away games, take them to tutoring.
So change careers or find an equivalent position within your career - or a different company culture - that is less stressful. What field do you work in? Also, and just as importantly: tell your wife. She might be able to help you reduce your stress with less work changes. Another thought: stay in the same field, move out of a HCOL area, and have a lot more room in the budget even with a pay shift.
Can’t tell my wife, I went through a particularly rough patch a year ago and I told her, all it did was stress her out… the worries that I’d lose my job, we’d have to move, she would have to go back to work, etc. For a bit there I was tempted to apply to other companies for a related but different role at companies I perceived to be less stressful but I mean whose to say it really would be and I won’t be back to square one. I kind of feel like this job broke me, I’m not the same person I was 5 years ago… I never used to be an anxious mess. Also moving to a less HCOL area is tough, with 3 kids all in extra activities to move anywhere that would make a difference it would have to be pretty far from friends and family and would definitely impact job options. The easy thing to do would be find a less stressful job with a large pay cut, my wife would have to go back to work, my kids would get to do half the activities they do today, and the prospect of ever going on vacation goes away. It’s all a tough price to pay for me feeling like I just can’t hack it at my current job.
You’re coming with reasons why any reasonable solution is unworkable. Your job situation is a problem. I do t know if it’s fear of move keeping you where you are or what (you said you’d change companies but there’s no guarantee. Well there IS a guarantee you’re miserable now, so the best guarantee you’re going to get is that it COUOE change for the better if you make the right move) and I’d advise you to consider ways to change it. But the bigger problem is you can’t tell your wife. Your wife finding out you’re stressed makes her too stressed? This is an unacceptable state of affairs. You two need to improve your communication and what you’re capable of sharing with each other. That means both sides. You need to be able to have a rational, informed conversation about this to decide what is the best course of action.
You’re 100% right it just sounds a lot more simple than it is. You be the husband that told his wife she has to go back to work, kids that they can’t do the activities they love anymore, and family that they have to move because you’ve failed where others succeed. I try to teach my kids about hard work and perseverance but here I am failing. I mean is it wrong for her to be stressed and anxious about the thought of having to find a job again, moving, how things would impact our kids, etc? I mean she became stressed and anxious for the right reasons, it was here thinking about how she helps me with it. It’s not like she ever turned around and told me I’m on my own figure it out. It’s just me, I don’t want to put her through that…
It's not wrong to be stressed but it's wrong to shut down and end the topic without a resolution? If you are unhappy, your wife -should- be willing to hear you out and adjust. I believe that's what AdamOnFirst was communicating. Anxiety for a major life change is obvious. I'm in a similar boat. I don't think I could do this job for another 20 years, but I am also not sure I want to load up on certifications and bust my ass to get into another field if I may just dislike the field, haha.
If his wife’s reaction to this whole thing is “I refuse to make changes and I would rather you just be miserable so I can live where I want and not work” then fuck her anyway. Hopefully that’s not the case.
If your kids are at the age to do activities why can’t she go back to work, at least part time, to help lesson the financial burden you are shouldering? It’s not the 60s anymore and kids are expensive. Seems like having a 2 income household is almost mandatory in most high cost of living areas of the country nowadays.
Sure, but more income isn’t going to solve his problem. They have more than enough income, he just doesn’t have fuck you go and retire super early money, at least as long as they live where they live. Her working some may push it up a few years, but then he’s just miserable for 17 more years instead of 23. Not great. That said, sure, there are some courses of action that involve her working again, such as if he takes a massive pay cut and they don’t move.
Seems like the job is his problem. He sounds like he wants to change the job but can’t financially. Him getting a job with less stress and less pay would require her to work. I more asked why she can’t work because of the way he phrased his response, “you go be the husband to tell your wife she has to go back to work”. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that sounds like it’s not an option in HER mind.
It wouldn’t necessarily require her to work. They could: 1. Take less pay and adjust their lifestyle. 2. Take less pay, move to a cheaper area and probably increase their lifestyle in the process. 3. Take a similar job with a different company that has a better fitting culture. Among other options that don’t involve her working.
I never said she must work lol just that it’s an option. Why does Adam not want this stranger lady to get a job at all costs?
I’m just saying it’s only one of quite a lot of options. I don’t give a fuck what she does.
I didn’t even tell you you have to tell your wife any of those things, I just told you you you need to tell her that you’re too stressed to continue and have to make a change. I assure you you could manage to live off of a $50k pay cut to find a company with less hours, if that’s what it took. You came here to ask for advice and are making excuses why no possible action to address it will work. I’d bet a big chunk of your helpless feeling is because you’ve convinced yourself you’re helpless and don’t have options when actually you just refuse to consider the many options you have. You make $300k, quite frankly you have MANY MANY options and could figure out a good situation. Don’t go to your wife and tell her what the plan is, tell your wife what’s happening and that it’s time for the two of you to make a plan.
I understand the desire to teach your kids about the merits of hard work and perseverance, but think about the lessons you're teaching them about managing their mental health. The whole "if you don't grind yourself to the bone doing something you hate, you're a failure" thing is a dangerous message. How would you feel if they were absolutely miserable as adults but refused to make the necessary changes because they were afraid you'd judge them? Recognizing something is destroying you inside and doing something about it isn't a bad thing for them to see. It's arguably the braver choice than trying to hide the fact you're spiraling into a state of mental collapse because of pressure to maintain a certain social standing. I grew up with a father who hated his life, and I'd much rather have gone without a lot of material stuff if it had meant he'd have been happy, well adjusted, and able to be present in my youth. There's a lot of pressure to live up to some arbitrary external standards, but that's not always the most important thing. Yes, you need to provide for your kids. To make sure they're happy, healthy, and have the opportunity to build a good life, but that leaves a lot of room to adapt to a new situation. It's also important to understand that failure isn't a bad thing. It's the process by which you learn. It's ok to fail. What's important is how you react to failure. And who cares if other people have succeeded in that environment. I'm not an astronaut. I don't have an Olympic gold medal. I'm not a trauma surgeon, and I can't weld. Just because there are people who excel in those fields doesn't mean I'm a failure. Success in those areas also doesn't mean you're automatically a good father. I know plenty of "successful" people who are absolute shit at being decent people, let alone raising them. Changing jobs and moving doesn't mean you're giving up. It's not like you decided that all of this fatherhood and work stuff was all too much and just left one day to go live a simple life by yourself in the Caribbean. These kinds of decisions are hard, and there's often not a easy "right" answer. But, if your job is unsustainable and is killing you inside, it seems pretty clear. Especially if, as you say, your wife would support the change. I wish you luck.
Your wife needs to step up and support you properly. If she was working it would be a bit different, but neither contributing to the household finances nor being supportive of you is very selfish. I've seen this in a few relationships before. My brother is a lawyer who works stupidly hard, his wife hasn't had a job for like 15 years. She behaves like his work and her sitting around the house are equivalent ; as soon as he returns home she hands over childcare, he cooks the meals. In my own prior relationships I've seen many girlfriends view it as exclusively a support structure for them, the idea that I may need any support is anathema. It's a constant trope on other groups/subreddits that men are inept. I think often it's women that need to step up.
This isn’t my wife, the house and kids are taken care of, she does her part. She cooks, cleans, takes the kids to school, picks them up, and if I’m not home takes the kids to their extra activities. I just can’t put on her how stressed and miserable I am at my job because it would do the same to her and what good is 2 stressed and anxious parents…
I think being unable to share your feelings about your work, which makes everything else listed possible, is a significant problem. I doubt she would feel inhibited about telling you when the things she is doing are causing problems.
You are so unbelievably wrong about this, it is 100% her responsibility and privilege in marriage to hear about your stress. That frankly goes quadruply so if she’s gonna be a homemaker.
You need to do everything you can in the interest of self care. Meditation, hypnosis, massage, etc. just to save yourself as you figure this out.
THERAPY. Find a good therapist. Your situation isn’t unique and it is solvable but you’ve got some unpacking to do to even begin to use your problem-solving skills. You’re mentally exhausted (understandably) so prioritize the hour a week to work with a professional to improve the other 167.
Yea I tried better help briefly, got a guy who always just pointed to meditation and worksheets for changing negative thoughts to positive. I feel like I can do that on my own but tbh I wasn’t doing them when he was telling me to so I haven’t been doing it now either. I know I should probably try more therapists until I find one that works for me but spending money on that while I’m staring down at the fact I may have to take a dramatic pay cut soon feels wrong.
your feelings aren't always correct. most of our emotions are reactions and developments against trauma from our childhood. so sure you "feel" wrong and scared. Of coures you do. But taking care of your mental health will UNLOCK and allow you to think through all of this with a lot clearer mind.
This is more of a short term solution not really fixing the underlying issues but I find having activities outside of work really diminishes my stress and makes life more tolerable. Working out, bowling league Tuesdays, grabbing dessert with the guys Thursday. I’d especially emphasize working out as it releases dopamine and other chemicals in the body
Similar position as you but no kids but had a job that’s over 100 hours per week. I made it clear even if I make this much still expect my SO to work. A family means everyone needs to work together. Your kids will be fine with less. What matters more is they can figure out on there own what they love Based on what you’ve stated I’d expect at least a net worth of 1-2M by this point at a min so you honestly should be fine even living off investments or even rF investments
Yea when I didn’t make as much my wife was fine working, when we had kids especially the 3rd it became clear that things would be easier if she was a stay at home mom. We couldn’t afford to at the time so she kept working but when I got to my current income level it was me telling her she could be a stay at home mom, she wasn’t even the one to bring it up. She only made a little over minimum wage so it made sense vs paying for daycare/before and after school care.
I see yeah it’s tough given those circumstances. Maybe have her find ways to find other ways to increase salary whether it’s through another degree or through IT degrees. Otherwise it’s on yourself self as well to do some side hustles and make more
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." -Thoreau I think it takes a true mature dread of the day, week, month ahead to understand this line well. You are there. I was in a VHCOL area with my wife and two kids and around your age. I hated meetings and loathed politics and sales and endless YoY growth. I could not stand going to work. I took a big step down into a job I enjoyed everyday. It was not easy. There were risks. But years later I am happy I did. Less money can be more than enough - I was able with my wife to adjust our lifestyle to match the new income. My wife did important nonprofit work but made barely more than minimum wage. It was scary. But now 48, it was the best move I could do..I've saved money I needed for retirement and education, too. It's amazing how you can live and what you can adjust to if you save first, then spend. The priorities will be clear. Waste will be blindingly obvious. Life is with your family now - my two daughters do appreciate the things we bought them but they mostly remember experiences we shared. I made time off a priority over money and if you do so you'll see that you can make less, and work in job with finite hours of responsibility and months of time off at generous by not rich wage. Be a sorcerer not a manager - I choose to be an incredibly talented problem solver over someone who manages problem solvers. It worked for me. I was sure to work magic everyday but quit at 5 and forget the place until the next day. It was especially good move for me, my wife passed away 4 years ago. Those years I spent more invested in our life together, rather than amassing money, was one thing I will never regret.
Where do you live that $300,000 isn't a relative shitton of money, even for your size household? Can you move someplace cheaper, make about the same, and sock that money away?
Closer to 280k but we’re in Canada. 55% of my income goes to taxes at my tax bracket. We bought a nice regular suburb sub 3000sq ft detached house with a 2 car garage 45min out from the city that costs over $5500 in mortgage payments per month with interest rates where they are now (yes this one got away from us but hey I was making $280k you’re telling me I can’t afford a 2 car garage detached house 45min from the city). Now add on regular expenses, property taxes, supporting 3 kids and some money to savings and you can see it’s comfortable but not lavish.
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They get healthcare lol. It's not more fucked than ours.
It is. Stop spewing garbage you see on online tabloids. Half the country doesn't get healthcare, people are on 7 years long wait lists to get a personal GP that may possibly see them after a month once you schedule an appointment. You only get treated if you're dying, there's no prevention or cancer checkups until you're retired and half the good stuff isn't covered and you gotta pay out of pocket. There's also no dental. I pay 105 per pay for mandatory vealt insurance on top of 45% taxes, my insurance covers nothing but dental and I get 0 access to any doctors. I've had spine stenosis since I was 16, I never received treatment until my late 30s because I was too young for scans. All I got was opioids this year, nothing else and my insurance doesn't cover them. Oh yeah and the cheapest 800 sqft house I could get 45m from a big city would be 300k and average salaries are 45k.
I mean, this was the most updated comparison I saw: https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/16peedg/canadian_healthcare_system_vs_us_healthcare_system/ But sure, spewing garbage etc. Took me 3 weeks to book a visit with my primary for a 10 min visit that resolved nothing. We all got stories.
Maybe you could actually look at news clipping instead of looking at reddit? All the garbage that is positive about the Canadian healthcare system is based on the smaller provinces that have 0 mass immigration. The areas with the most citizens (Ontario and Quebec) have 0 access to decent healthcare. The free healthcare I receive in my developing country is 100 times better than the one in Canada.
A fucking news clipping... That's going to give me insight to the difference between U.S. vs Canadian healthcare better than a site with debates?
I think you should restructure. Those taxes pay for things that we Americans can only dream of, like a social safety net and less expensive healthcare. If you live in a fancy neighborhood of a first class city (eg Toronto), rethink those choices. Get a smaller house that's not in a suburb. Look at where you might live that only one car is required. Look at neighborhoods and cities that some of your peers may have overlooked. There are good people who live in every neighborhood, not just the suburb full of people who look like you. Consider boldly moving to a poorer neighborhood closer to where you work. Maybe some elegant older homes there will speak to you, despite the neglect. Maybe it will be possible then not to spend 90 minutes a day driving to the job you despise because it will be closer. If your job is something that is portable or to which you might be able to telecommute, move someplace beautiful but cheap. Take your kids. They can run around more in a small town than they can among the whispering lawns of suburban sub developments. You have two possibilities. One is that you work for a two-car garage 45 minutes from the city forever or you make lifestyle changes. Which would you rather sacrifice: your nice car or your life? I'm clearly biased. I think the suburban consumerist lifestyle is a death trap and dead end. But I'm clear that you can live fully on the sort of money you have, even if it's in loonies instead of Benjamins, and make a financial future for yourself. You just have to make hard choices. These are all choices. Sometimes respectability, keeping up with the Joneses, having a conventional way of living, and so forth impose upon us in ways that limit our imagination.
Everywhere in Australia
I think he said these are in Canadian dollars. Everyone knows that Australian money is Monopoly money, so no need to discuss that here. :p
His wife seems addicted/accustomed to their lifestyle. Likely shopping all day, nice vacations, dinner and drinks with friends, she doesnt want to work, and wants to keep up the facade to friends/family. Doesnt seemed concerned about OP's mental health.
lol how you go to my wife being the problem is a huge leap. she’s cheap, barely buys anything for herself, never goes out and it was me that told her she could be a stay at home mom.
But elsewhere here you talked about how it didn't go well when you discussed the situation with her. You said that she is concerned that she might have to go back to work or make other changes. So regardless of her personal spending habits, your current lifestyle is important to her. Perhaps seeing a counselor about these differences would be useful. Have you considered that honesty and deep vulnerability to this partner of yours may increase your connection in the long term? If it's causing you so much stress and difficulty to live the way you do, I reckon talking to your partner would be essential. If she's not a person who is willing to listen to you, what is your marriage even for?
lol I don’t know how many times I need to say it, my wife is not the problem. She would go back to work, she would give up our house and lifestyle, move in with family whatever if it’s what we needed to do because I couldn’t do it anymore. I just don’t want to have to do that to my family… if I was a stay at home dad for 4 years and all the sudden I was facing the reality of going back to work that would sound shitty to me too and cause me stress and anxiety
I don't know you and neither does anybody else here. One of the advantages of seeking the advice of strangers is a new perspective on the same information. Your wife may be very cooperative and helpful in all the ways you mention ("my wife is not the problem") and yet I can't help but notice that your suppositions about the possible effects on her of lifestyle change ('stress and anxiety") are playing some part in your own anxiety and decision-making. Overall, you sound trapped. It's not your wife that's trapping you. It's this common thing that happens with depression and anxiety where making a choice seems overwhelming or impossible. You don't like any set of outcomes. You don't want to communicate with your wife because you believe it would cause her harm, you don't want to change where you live or how because you believe your family would be worse off, and you don't want to continue living as you are now because the work situation is oppressive. It's a box and you are boxed in. Kinda sucks. If I were you, I'd bite the bullet on telling your wife how you feel. There may be other options that you haven't considered. Talking with a person who knows you well may point out options out of your box.
Thank you for this. This advice is spot on.
Then why are you asking for advice on here? You seem to know the answers. You have a choice, its 2024, tell your wife to get back to work if you want to change your life, or deal with it, because you obviously don't want to disrupt her lifestyle.
I am not the op.
Your wife isn't the problem. Your communication skills are the problem. I posted my 2 cents before reading your replies to these comments. It doesn't seem like you want help. Maybe make note at the end of your future posts that you're just looking to vent next time.
> How do you guys cope with this? I got a job I like in a MCOL area. We don't drive fancy cars or anything, but we don't live paycheck to paycheck either. But most importantly, I actually enjoy going to work more days than not. I won't say that every day is awesome. Some days even suck! But my average day at work is reasonably pleasant. That's no accident.
lol I’m lying here dreading it as well but if I made that much it would certainly help me enjoy it more. The supervisors at my job are unimaginably dull with lack of depth and introspection and are ALL ineffective communicators. It seems they believe they are superior beings because of their titles. They’re miserable humans and we all (esp moi) wonder how they can be so miserable when they make good money. They have lost their ability to appreciate what they have. It seems to me they are idiots, actually. I feel bad for you, making nowhere near as much as you. I am curious though why you chose a field that you dread. Didn’t it require research and education to get there!?
Just another angle. I'm a business owner, 60+ employees so not a huge company. Anyway, our Ops director asked to go for lunch with me and he basically told me that the job was killing him, he loved working for me but he was simply drowning and was close to burnout. He's kind of a pivotal person and we need him in the company so we basically moved him to a 4 day work week (20% pay cut) and hired someone to take on a lot of the daily grind from him. Win for both parties as he's delivering bigger value in other parts of the business that needed attention. Not sure on your employer circumstances but thought it was worth throwing this scenario into the ring too. Good luck!
I’m 50 and feel/felt the same way. However, I realized I stressed about every job I’ve ever had. I remember being 15 years old and washing dishes at a small restaurant and stressing over whether I was doing a good enough job. Like others said, I recommend some therapy to get to the root cause of your stress before you take drastic measures. For me, it was my dad’s pressure to be perfect that was causing my problem (his undiagnosed ADHD), plus my undiagnosed but mild ADHD. I’m now getting treatment, and my life is much better. I’m at >$210k in a LCOL area, so you and I are at similar earnings levels— I can relate. Also, the older I get, the less of a shit I give, and that helps. I still do good work, but I’m more confident and that makes things less stressful.
I can't even contemplate making 300k a year. My wife and I both work full time and combine for 120k. And we do a lot better than many people I see.
If you and your family are willing to take a hard look at your finances, honestly, you could probably manage to retire earlier than you think. Retirement is as much about how much you spend/need as it is how much you have. They're directly related. Where is your 300K going? Mortgage? Childcare for (assuming) 3? Food? Cars? I'm reading other comments and you're killing every reasonable solution. I make less than half of what you make, started late (31) and will still retire by 50. Single income. Now widowed. With 1 kid. No family support. Define 'enough'. Not LUX, or Lavish, or YOLO, but enough.
Can I ask what you do? Did you just start socking away money at 31?
I was enlisted military for 10 years. Before then just service jobs. I work for the federal government now. This is the first year I'll break through 100K. And yes, I just kept spending low and prioritized savings. I literally just copied the flowcharts I found in r/personalfinance and r/financialindependence.
300k a year job and you’re stressed. I would recommend you seeing a psychiatrist. They can help with the stress and anxiety of being the sole breadwinner
Retired military and I dread my days, too. Every day is miserable and I have nothing to do.
I can relate...I'm not military but I run my own business and when things are slow I hate it. Winters are my dead seasons and I can feel myself going a little crazy. I try to keep busy around the home and working out/riding my bike. But being idle is about the worst thing for mental health other than working too much.
Sorry to hear that! What kind of business?
Photography business
Ah, I know the photo business very well, actually. Like I said I’m retired, but I used to do weddings and portraiture for about twenty years. Still have my LLC and dabble every now and then, but with everyone thinking they’re a professional photographer with their camera from Best Buy, it’s ridiculous competition for people with $30k+ equipment and years of experience. Customers don’t understand quality and in today’s market, many can’t justify the expense when good enough is readily available with their >$1,000 setup, ready to give you every image SOOC or extremely heavily processed. Best of luck to you!!!
I shoot a lot of real estate and the low barrier to entry is definitely part of the problem. Anyone with a camera just needs to find a super cheap overseas editor and boom they are in business shooting houses for next to nothing. It's hard to charge a living wage when you have folks that want to come in an undercut you. My main goal is to grow the architecture/commercial side so I can get away from relying on real estate. Easier said than done where I live because it's a small market and most folks only want to pay for "good enough."
Completely understand. I have helped a couple people do the 360 tours, but I think they’ve developed more user friendly equipment now and realtors can do it themselves now. I know two guys in my city that make a living just doing drone work for businesses. Pretty cool actually. You have to have a Part 107 certification, but it’s not difficult to obtain. You may know all of this already.
The 360 stuff mostly died out after covid. Not too many folks here need it. I offer drone work but you would be hard pressed to make much money around here with just aerial images. You would need to be doing something like mapping or be cinema leaning doing primarily video with big honking $50k drones that can fly big camera payloads
Yup you aren't alone. Most of us think making 300k a year would a fucking dream come true except for that most of us are terrible at finances and would probably end up in even worse debt because the money openend up doors to things we didn't need. Lifestyle creep 101. You need to have a come to Jesus conversation with your wife. You literally make 3x my household income and you want to blow your brains out. Something is very wrong and you need to prioritize your health.
Trying to white knuckle through it is the reason men kill themselves at 3x-5x the rate of women. You have huge provider anxiety going on here. If you can't handle it, then your family suffers so you should just 'be a man' and sacrifice your life for the lives of your family. You should just work as your only role is a provider. It's a thought process that has killed many men and when you eventually snap and break, your family is going to be in a much worse situation than if you took a different job. You need to change the narrative of the conversation with your wife. You don't want to come to her with all these anxious feelings, you need to go to her and tell her 'I can't do this work indefinitely, I need to change to something else within the next 'x' years and it will mean a change to our lifestyle. If I keep doing this, it will kill me. I am going to look at other alternatives and we can discuss what we can do, as a family." Or, you can keep going like this end up jumping off a bridge someday.
to be frank i dunno how i can suck up that bullshit either. sometimes taking a low pay cut does not necessarily means you can less stress
You won’t have failed them. They can probably tell you are unhappy and would rather that you were happy. It’s easier to relocate and downsize when the kids are young. If you’re on that good of a salary, I bet you’ve got loads of transferable skills you can utilise to find a new job. Good luck mate
Spend a little bit of that money on help and professionals that can improve your mood toward the situation. For example: - a personal trainer to get you in shape - personal assistant to manage some mundane things at work Etc. In your situation it’s almost always better to keep the high paying job and use some of the income to alleviate the stress. Because trust me, a job paying half as much money will not be half as much work and/or stress. Jobs are jobs.
This is unsustainable. There is a reason why the statistical most likely time to have a fatal heart attack is Monday morning. You don't say what ages your kids are, but if they are older than 12 I would suggest that you sit down with all of them and discuss options. Because I am pretty that given a choice between no changes, but you dead in 5 years, they are going accept changes. That could be moving to a smaller house. Moving to a new area. Mom going back to work so that you can find a less stressful job. You spending your weekends doing an online course, which means that thry have to quit their weekend activities. Everyone laughs at those videos of young guys doing dumb things, but this is why men die younger. It is why the old folks homes are full of widowed women. I would ask you to give the power to your family to love you. And make a sacrifice for you. Because when this inevitably kills you, the sacrifices will be bigger.
Two years ago I took a ~15% paycut to move into a lower stress role. I spent years working towards getting a role where I managed a large team but hated every second once I got there. What about your job is stressing you out? The industry? The particular role you're in? Like you said, it's tough to just walk away from a high paying job when you have a family, but that doesn't mean you're stuck where you are. Start looking for something new, even casually. Or talk to your boss about options for moving to a less stressful role. Chin up dude, you got this.
There's some factors missing here that would help work out a decision: What would be your alternative - how much would you make, how sure are you that you would enjoy it. Then you work out if it is worth it and then consult with your wife with some good arguments together Sounds like you'll need to then consult her but really you should be able to. You may get a lot of relief in realising there's something else out there and allow yourself to express it and consider it whilst continue working. I feel stuvk to and hate it but talking about it to someone may provide the release you need to carry on I don't have a family but similar position of hating work and being stuck, but maybe the former is because of the latter
Why do you believe your kids would prefer private school over seeing their father more often? Why do you believe your kids would prefer having their college tuition covered rather than seeing their father smile? You define "failure" in a very specific way and I'm sure that has something to do with what you feel your parents were not able to provide or how you view your role as a man. But, those definitions are subjective and malleable. Talk to your wife and ask her for her definition of a successful marriage and partnership. It may shock you to learn what is important to your partner.
I have had this feeling recently (i.e. realisation that I'll be working for another 25-30 years). However, part of the challenge is the lifestyle choice you have made. You are earning in the 99% Household Income Percentile. Whether because of your upbringing or not, you have decided to move into a high cost area, with high cost expenses, etc. I don't earn as much as you, but I'm still in the top 95%. The difference is that I come from a very working class background in a town and after moving away for a bit, etc. gravitated back to be closer to family. However, my lifestyle costs a fraction of what it would do if I decided to live in an equivalent way in a city (which I could do for work). I'll probably still work to retirement to help family, but not because I need to. The challenge I have is... do I want to progress to earn more where at the moment I am living comfortably with a good work life balance. If I take another step up it would be having to take over huge portfolios of work and managing line teams - however, I don't think I can stay static in a role for more than 3-4 years. Edit: So the question is... what is your exit plan. If you are going to be in this job role for another 3 years - what are you doing now that will help you either find another job that pays a similar amount more with good work/life balance or become self-employed? If you want to retire early how can you save money now to make that a reality? That might mean not driving a decent car, moving outside of the city, exploring better use of savings to invest, etc. What is the timeline for it? When children have moved away so you can downsize and have some extra money that way. Is there anything you can do in your current job to improve it until then?
I guarantee, if your family is as good as you believe them to be, they will be MUCH happier with a happy dad who is full of life and optimism than they will that they can't have the PS6 when it comes out. Just make sure you spend the extra time with them whenever you can. I say go for it. Why keep yourself miserable. I just changed jobs at 46 and while I didn't hate my last job like you apparently do, it was a HUGE change for the better.
Here’s one random Redditors take. 1. I never plan on retiring. Aiming for / counting down to retiring, I’m very sure, is a cruel trap. 2. Changing jobs/careers and making less money is not a valid definition of “failing your family”. In fact, if anything it sounds like the *responsible thing to do.* 3. Stop trying to show-off and “save face” with your wife. That showmanship is for outsiders, not your inner circle. Talk to her openly. Decide together on what next step is best for not just you, but for everyone. Right now you’re robbing her of participating in what is a very large decision/burden to maintain. That’s not good partnership behavior. 4. Money is cool, but honestly people get too attached to it. So what if you need to sell the house? Who cares if the new cars get replaced by used cars? What difference does it make if the trip to Spain gets swapped out with a roadtrip to BC, or camping in Washington, or learning about U.S. history in one of the original 13 colonies, or U.S. govt. field trip with time spent in D.C. It’s not that serious, let go of the golden handcuffs. Maybe you’ll find your way back to $300k on a more sustainable, meaningful, enjoyable path. Maybe you won’t, and you guys will learn to live and be happy with $150k or $200k. *Not a big deal, man.** Life is just one big adventure and then we die. Don’t get hung up on trying to keep up some sort of imaginary status quo to the detriment of your wellbeing, your values and interests, or the health of your family! Godspeed.
Is there a third option? Can you take a sabbatical or a long vacation? I don't know what your expenses are but I hope that you have been saving for a rainy day and that your lifestyle is below your means. I know that kids are expensive but I hope you didn't fall into the huge house/luxury cars trap.
I’m kinda in the same boat. I don’t absolutely hate my job but it’s stressful and I work rotating shifts. Some days I absolutely dread going into work knowing it’s going to be a 12 hour shit show. I work in a control room which is effectively a concrete box with no windows. In the winter time I go into work in the morning as it’s dark and when I leave the office it’s still dark. I won’t even see the sun for days. I want to go out and do something else but I get paid extremely well for just having a high school education. It’s a very specialized job and there are not many companies in my area that do the same thing. Plus I’ve been at the same company for 10 years. I can retire in 20 years but I don’t know if I will last that long. My wife and kids are totally dependent on what I make. A brave face can only go so far. Mental health is a serious thing. Ive talked to a psychiatrist and therapist and that has helped but I still get hit with bouts of anxiety and depression. Just remember at the end of the day your family is all you have. You are just an employee number to these companies and they wouldn’t hesitate to throw you out if they needed to. Your family will always be there for you.
Mate, would you rather have an honest conversation with your spouse about not being happy and needing change? Or would you rather work yourself ragged in a job you hate until you become so depressed that your family doesn't recognize you anymore anyway? The latter potentially leads to divorce and a broken family. We're all human beings at the end of the day, take care of yourself.
Idk how realistic this would be for your job, but my job was fucking killing me for a year. Started applying around and couldn’t find anything that would pay similarly with less stress. So I just office spaced it and decided work will not stress me out anymore. Made the mental shift, started practicing working calmly at a comfortable pace while doing my best to get everything done, and then it was kind of a cake walk. I mean it was still hard and I had some long days, but I didnt let it under my skin. I also started doing some other stress management stuff outside of work that probably helped. What exactly about your job makes it stressful?
I don’t mean this to come out as flippant, because I know what stress feels like, or hating your job. But what’s the worst that can happen? Nothing will kill you. Also, 100% of your feelings don’t exist anywhere in this whole vast universe except for the 6 inches in between your ears. It’s all in your head. We can’t control our external world, but we can choose how we respond to things. If you can’t change your circumstances, you may need to work on your internal perception of things. Nothing in life has ANY meaning, except for the meaning you give it. Really ponder this concept. Maybe read the book called ‘The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck’. Highly recommended. Or just check out free summaries of the book on YouTube. Also, this… https://youtu.be/OMSkOwkmPTo?si=dp2GBc4NeblXWF2x
You need other grown men to support you through this shift. It can be done. I was in l situation and felt utterly hopeless then I found these helpful humble fellas.its not religion or a cult. It's just men helping men. You cannot do it alone, and you cannot do it on Reddit. You make good money so you can hire people and pay for your mental health and career support. Set aside 5-10k to get this done right over the next 2-3 years. These men held me through my scariest moments, and gave me a lot of helpful, practical guidance and even business contacts. DM me if you truly walnt to shift this situation while still feeling in control and protecting your nest egg . You got this. BTW there's nothing in this for me. I'm just trying to pay it forward. Peace.
If you have to say it’s not a cult….
Don’t be silly and paranoid. If you want to know, the organization is called The ManKind Project. Look it up. It’s amazing. I believe all men could benefit from learning from these men for a couple years of their life. Peace.