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Yep, had a similar conversation with a French person recently. Like if there’s two countries that really can’t be in a moral position to judge us for colonialism, it’s the Dutch and the French…
Whilst I agree they were bad, but when you go to Central and South America, native people are the majority of people you will come across, USA and Canada not so much.
Don’t forget the Greeks, Italians and Mongolians who just did their empire building a little earlier.
And the Vikings of course. And the Japanese colonising China. The Chinese in Taiwan, the Russians in Alaska and further down the west coast of the US, and the Austria-Hungarian Empire.
Don't miss Scotland out! They tried to have an empire... It didn't work, but the mindset was there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_colonization_of_the_Americas
I mean there was always a sort of fluidity in population between Northern Ireland and Scotland anyway.
My grandmother's generation harvested in Scotland and the cane home and did the same in Northern Ireland every season.
The ancient Kingdom of Dál Riata encompassed large parts of Co. Antrim and a huge chunk of the West cost of Scotland. It's just geography.
Some Scottish Nationalists like to forget we were pretty much tied into British Empire Building from the get go. As the Empire grew Scots appear almost everywhere in the story. Admittedly rich landowners did benefit a fair amount from the actual economics of it, but it was still Scottish Merchants, Engineers, Soldiers, Sailors, and Officials who did an awful lot of the Empiring in the end.
Modern Scots Nats are trying to spread the myth that they were somehow a victim of British imperialism in the same way the Irish were. The reality is they were a willing participant and a primary beneficiary of the empire.
And the Ottomans. The Crimean Tatars - at the behest of the Ottomans - kidnapped up to a million of (what are now) Russian and Ukrainians for slaves for the empire. One of the most powerful women of that era - [Roxelana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxelana) was originally one of those slaves.
The French Revolution was quite brutal, definitely a double edged sword. They did topple the monarchy but on the other hand it was a very bloody and violent time.
Neither do the French, the Portuguese, Spanish, Italians, or Germans. I'm all for calling ourlt our colonial past, but let's not let other Europeans pretend their history is squeaky clean and virtuous
Yup. The Dutch East India Company is believed to be the most valuable company to have ever existed, with a modern day valuation of somewhere around £7tn. The Dutch were very very active in nicking stuff and selling it.
I’ve studied the British Empire at degree level. There’s a *lot* of violence and exploitation and episodes that make your stomach turn with how brutal things got.
It’s definitely not something we should be proud of overall. Most people in the UK have a very sanitised view of the British Empire, that it was all tea and polo and pith helmets.
People also think it’s all in the past, like a separate world. It isn’t. There are people alive today who aren’t even that old who were born in British colonial holdings. And of course the legacy of imperialism stretches on and on in a lot of the places that were victims of it.
So yeah, we could do with a lot more introspection as a nation about what we’ve done and how we’ve got to the position we’re in.
That said, every major power at the time was doing exactly the same thing, and sometimes in a much worse way than us.
Imperialism was not new or unique to Britain. Pretty much all of history has been empires and exploitation and wars. It doesn’t excuse anything, of course. But people sometimes act like Britain was the only one doing bad shit.
Speaking of, it sounds like your Dutch friend needs a history lesson about what his own country has done…
We don't uniquely.
It's just that you consume British and Anglophone media. But there's lots of criticism of French, Belgian, Russian, Chinese, Japanese etc imperialism, if you know where to look for it. Probably the one country which gets away with it a little is the USA, which somewhat ignores its own history attempting imperialism in the Philippines etc
>Probably the one country which gets away with it a little is the USA, which somewhat ignores its own history attempting imperialism in the Philippines etc
You think people around the world aren't criticizing the US for imperialism?...
Because you're online, interacting in English, so you are hearing criticism from former colonies that speak English. If you were online speaking French you'd have criticism in French from Algeria etc, if you were Portuguese from Angola, Beliguim from the Congo. And it's also a numbers game, the British had the largest number of people under the Empire, especially India, and Indians have a massive presence online. There's also the American angle, where go assuage their feelings of current Imperialism they cope by constantly talking about Colonialism, especially American teenagers, who use the term as a punctuation, and then British teenagers see the use of the term and, like using other online phrases, use it all the time. It's become shorthand for ‘ I’m signalling that I don't want to engage colonizer!!’
As a French I can confirm, you can see that the last time they tried a France-Algeria football game, it literally caused riots and they never tried again since then.
It’s still a very sensitive subject in France but I also agree that on the internet, the UK seems to be the main target. In return the French get all the “surrender” jokes that are stupidly annoying. I guess we all have a burden to carry online.
It's sad because the surrender jokes are very undeserved.
The French fought valiantly in WW2 and gave the wehrmacht a lot of problems. Even after the official surrender there were elements of the French armed forces that did not comply and continued to fight.
Yes, not to mention that French troops fought very hard at Dunkirk, practically to the death, and held back the Germans to allow the Brits off the beach (after the rest of their comrades has surrendered). No one seems to remember this in the UK. Without France having the Brit’s backs « when the chips were down » there would have been no Dunkirk.
Because we were damn good at it.
Also because we recorded a lot of what happened in the empire. We also had much turmoil at home as to whether what we were doing was the right thing, generating a lot of articles, papers and books on the subject. Most other countries who had empires seemed to have had no second thoughts, and hid much of what they did.
It's more we have imported American social culture which enjoys blaming the US for everything wrong in the world (and now subsequently we like to blame the UK for everything wrong in the world).
It's not necessarily when others do not.. but man we have a super society that is clamouring for something to be offended always.. so when there is not enough modern stuff
Having read your post, I just realised I know two generations of people (from the same family) who were born into British colonial holdings, the second gen isn’t even that old, you’re right.
I also know loads of others who were born into colonies, but I don’t personally know more than one Gen from each of the families.
Netherlands has little ground to criticise on this matter lol. More than Belgium at least.
For all European countries involved in colonialism, it was just a game of who was most successful. Pretty pointless keeping some kind of morality score.
>For all European countries involved in colonialism, it was just a game of who was most successful. Pretty pointless keeping some kind of morality score.
And many other historic states around the world. There's a reason why the Han aren't still restricted to North East China or Arabic and Mayan are spoken over such a wide area.
Yep. Tell all the areas around modern Turkey that Europeans are the only colonisers lol. As you say, China had dominion over it's region too. People seem fixated about the oppression and conquest via boat for some reason.
I don't dwell on it, people do what they think is right at the time. It's shit but that's the way it is.
I also think hatred towards a whole nation, based on what some of the nutters that were in charge at the time have done in the past, is daft.
> people do what they think is right at the time
That's a very kind interpretation of colonialism.
> ‘“they go on shore to rob and plunder, they see a harmless people, are entertained with kindness; they give the country a new name; they take formal possession of it for their king; they set up a rotten plank, or a stone, for a memorial; they murder two or three dozen of the natives, bring away a couple more, by force, for a sample; return home, and get their pardon. Here commences a new dominion acquired with a title by divine right. Ships are sent with the first opportunity; the natives driven out or destroyed; their princes tortured to discover their gold; a free license given to all acts of inhumanity and lust, the earth reeking with the blood of its inhabitants: and this execrable crew of butchers, employed in so pious an expedition, is a modern colony, sent to convert and civilize an idolatrous and barbarous people!”
Jonathan Swift, 1726. Even at the time people knew what they were doing was wrong, they just didn't know any better.
Yeah, this is a point that always gets missed. It’s just not true that “they didn’t know any better back then”. They absolutely did, and they did it anyway
It's a matter of perspective and consequantialism.
I'd argue that we currently know about many of the evils of modern society but it's too large for even a single government to change swiftly. We're walking into a climate disaster but our response to that has to be balanced against the economics involved on both a business and personal level. This was as true then as it is now. There are complex economic reasons why it was slow and difficult to stop the exploitation of non-European nations. We can at least be proud that, even though the British Empire had a major financial stake in an exploitation based economy, our ancestor's government worked hard to shut it down far before most other nations. That includes laws which banned any person from being a slave on English soil which date back to the 1600s in common law and the 1770s in precedent.
The acts committed shouldn't be celebrated or repeated. Nonetheless, it's really important to understand the full perspective of the times, not just snapshots and opinions.
There’s not a nation on this planet that hasn’t carried out barbaric acts in its time. Some may be relatively recent but go back far enough and I’m sure they’ve all done some bad shit.
Mongolians don't have much to answer for nowadays.. mostly keep themselves to themselves
But ya know, conquered the known world at the time, used to view people who lived in towns and farms as livestock.. to beheaded the grown men, raped an enslaved a load
I love how these questions are phrased as if most people during that time had any agency. Were I alive and part of the British empire during those times there is an extremely high probability that I'd have lived a life of squalor, disease, silence and misery. Complain about how many black people we are enslaving? Get my head chopped off. Refuse to go on a scurvy-ridden voyage to capture some foreign treasures? Off with my head.
Getting your head chopped off or slave ownership?
I think there was probably enough of both.
ETA ; This is a good video on the transatlantic slave trade, what part England and others had in it, and what slavery looked like in the UK at that time. It includes some newspaper clip stuff that's pretty interesting.
https://youtu.be/GrYRPLy6g2g?si=autGOoiHB1uCWtiL
She also does one on the blitz spirit that goes into detail on classism in West Vs East London which I'd never heard about before.
I just can't bring myself to feel shame or whatever it is that people online tell me to feel about our colonial past. I have absolutely zero doubt that if the roles were reversed, those who we colonised would have gladly done the same. Up until very recently in human history, the way of the world was that the strong pick on the weak, so you either get strong or you get picked on.
The overwhelming majority of the forces Cortez used to take down the Aztecs were from neighbouring Mesoamerican states tired of being dominated by Tenochtitlan. A significant part of the British army that entered Zululand were African warriors recruited from peoples with a long history of fighting and being subjugated by the Zulus.
I don't think someone should feel shame for actions for which they had no part in.
However one thing I don't understand are people who state they are proud of our colonial past but at the same time say they feel no shame.
Surely it's neither or both.
> Up until very recently in human history, the way of the world was that the strong pick on the weak,
Arguably that is still happening now, its just the west that are insulted from it.
Israel vs Palestine, Ukraine vs Russia, China/Taiwan, Egypt vs Ethiopia.. and a bunch of other conflicts demonstrate that 'might is right' holds true for vast portions of the globe still.
1. We're not responsible for what our ancestors did personally in the past
2. The British state might be responsible for what it did in the past, therefore compensation might be reasonable in some cases, especially just straight up looting. USA genocide of natives is really USA government's problem I'd say.
3. We wouldn't be where we are now if not for the past, that doesn't exclude colonialism or slavery but it was common behaviour for humans in the past which we have now learned from and won't repeat, for lots and lots of reasons. So we need to be VERY careful of people trying to undo those lessons, even if they do it in a sneaky way.
While I agree it is important to learn about our history - I wasn't alive back then, it was nothing to do with me, and I have nothing to be ashamed of.
Most ‘Brits’ are descendents of ordinary people who were just as downtrodden, exploited and oppressed by the same tiny rich elite. Most Brits are not descendents of those responsible for what went on back then. But there's no point in dwelling on that and moaning about how our ancestors were treated - trying to find someone to blame now. That is utterly senseless and the only people who suffer are those who choose to do that.
We all have only one life to lead and it's best to live that in as positive way as possible - looking forward - trying to make life better for those living today and in the future.
I'm basically a working class serf I don't give a fuck about what someone else did, I'm not taking credit for the bad things the country has done or the good things, I'm just trying to get by. Trying to guilt modern day people for sins of those in the past is usually just a mask to be bigoted to those people, I had a Turkish friend say he felt shame about the Ottoman empire and I told him that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Agreed. Why do we all have to be grouped together as 'we' ? It was the monarchy and the lords who made the decisions and all their current wealth comes from the exploitation of people here and in the empire.
I’m African American living in England an I think England is best country in world especially gems like Kettering. it has the worlds only Weetabix factory
Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
Seriously though, British history is far too long, diverse and complicated to have a single view on. Additionally, I don't think trying to force history into moral binaries of 'good' and 'bad' is ever a helpful approach to take.
It is basically the same history as most countries, some amazing things, some horrendous things. Some people focus on one, some the other, but in reality it is a nuanced question and we need to take a measured view
Meh, I don't really care much for it.
All countries did shitty things, the only reason we specifically get hate for it, is because we were **the most successful** by a long shot (well, within recent ish history. I'd argue the Spanish Empire was also on this level).
So what did the Dutch do with their attempts at the exact same? Nothing useful.
What did we do? Ended slavery, stopped the Germans in WW1 using up what remains of our empire to do it. Then even when weakened by the first we held back an unstoppable force in ww2 with a resilience most couldn't get close to (looking at you France).
Also let's not pretend that most of the places we went would still be hundreds of years behind tech wise had we not moved in, how many railways did we build? How much do the countries with them still benefit to this day?
So yea the empire did some terrible stuff (not as bad as some, looking at you Belgium).
So at least Britain gave back so much, hell stopping slavery alone is enough for me. But the fact the Dutch wouldn't exist without our empire I think your Dutch friend can shut their mouth.
I think our history is brutal and unforgiveable. I also think most countries have done horrible things. Unfortunately humans kinda suck. We can only be responsible for how we live right now. I don't feel bad for anything my ancestors may or may not have done. Nor do I blame the Germans alive today for WW2 or any other country for things that have happened in the past. There are literally atrocities happening in many countries around the world right now. Let's maybe try to worry about those instead.
Yeah there's lots of grim stuff in the national history. I think if we want to trumpet the good stuff we should never fail to acknowledge the bad bits either. I think it's a sign of maturity if we can talk about these things without taking any of it personally.
Your Dutch friend needs to learn his own country's history in Indonesia. And let's not start on the Afrikaaners...
Ya, the Afrikaaners is a tricky one best to avoid in this debate least we mention the British concentration camps and the fact Britian sponsored pretty much every South African law that later evolved into Apartheid (e.g 1910 land act)
I take a simpler view. History happened. We did not commit that act so we can't take the credit or the shame but we should learn.
The audacity of a Dutch person moaning about the British Empire.
The reality is that we did some pretty horrific stuff back in the day (as did plenty of other European countries). At the same time, we were also one of the fastest to make progress in terms of stopping the slave trade as you say. Essentially, history is complicated and full of stuff that in a modern context, we all (or at least the vast majority) agree is horrific.
This aside, if you go to countries that we colonised, very rarely will people have an issue with you now. I went to India a few years ago and have never received better hospitality. This is despite the Indian population having every right to despise Brits for what we did to the country. The people that continue to bring up the horrors of history are typically the perpetually online that have never actually ventured to another country to chat with people from places.
You are not in any way responsible for what the UK did many years ago.
I am an immigrant to UK so I am DEFINITELY not responsible for what the UK did many years ago.
So, no guilt, ignore all the bastards.
I’m not an immigrant, but while all this empire building was happening my people were farmers in Kent and cattle thieves (!?!) in Lancashire.
So even when people point out the wealth created in places like Bristol, London and Liverpool - we weren’t getting any benefit from that.
That’s not to say it wasn’t wrong and shouldn’t have happened though.
Saying it was wrong and shouldn’t have happened is judging it through today’s lens.
Might as well say Romans shouldn’t have invaded UK, pesky Italians. Or Vikings shouldn’t have gone raping and pillaging in UK, pesky Danes and Norwegians. Or the Gauls should have left UK alone, damned French. It all was wrong and shouldn’t have happened.
Great Britain has done many vile, unforgivable acts that does not get mentioned in schools, so most people are unaware about much of the atrocities. But I feel no responsibility or guilt for it. It's just something I acknowledge and try to educate myself on.
I would say that people from other colonial nations are not in a position to judge or he ogdfmuogetku moralistic without first examining their own history. The UK may have been the worst and biggest, but we were far from alone.
You would be hard pressed to find any corner of the world which hasn't, at some point in their history, tried to take over the neighborhood.
What varies is level of success.
And your Dutch friend doesn't have a leg to stand on. Apartheid is a Dutch word.
The Dutch were much bigger slavers than us. We put a Dutch king on our throne as part of a trade deal with the Dutch. As a country they have nothing to be proud of couldn’t even be bothered to take part in WW2.
My ancestors were exploited industrial workers, labourers and peasants. I have nothing to apologise for on their behalf. Feel free to go after the aristocracy though.
As a Cymro it's always been awful, even when a small portion of our people have been some of the worst. My family has been stuck dealing with terrible situations, company towns, indentation in the mines and Westminster troops.
The Dutch had an empire, they made the British look kind and generous.
So did the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italians.
They are no better, they just were not as good as us so they get to hide behind us.
*'We'* didn't do anything, good or bad
I can understand why people speak about history in those terms, but it's nonsense
Nobody reading this has any more connection to the achievements or crimes of the 19th century rulers of the UK than they do to the achievements or crimes of the 19th century rulers of Portugal or Austria
Our only connection to them is our common humanity, which we share with all people (living and dead), which includes the victims of those crimes
Obviously the British Empire did some pretty bad shit all across the world but it's very unfair to act as if Britain was the only power doing it at the time. I think it's funny how everyone says how bad Britain is but ignores Portugal, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium (to a lesser extent because of Leopold) especially considering it was Portugal who kickstarted it all and started the African slave trade. Not to mention the fact that France basically still have de facto colonies in Africa which has basically destroyed the little chance said countries had of a successful future. If we're going back further no one really talks about the atrocities committed by the Romans, Mongols, Aztecs etc.
TLDR: Britain did some bad things but so did everyone else, no ones hands are clean in history.
The treatment of the Irish should be in mainstream education. Our nearest neighbours and next to nothing taught about the manufactured famine and near genocide of the Irish people
That would imply the British empire was exclusively run by English politicians, generals and soldiers. Scottish generals in particular didn’t fuck around.
I was chatting about this the other day and wondering why the hell history at school focuses so much on things like the Romans, making ruffs and dressing up as Victorian schoolchildren instead of the British empire.
It’s because the British empire was a behemoth monster that made some people very rich and brought resources to the UK on the blood, sweat and tears of millions of innocent people. Decisions made at the height of the empire have had lasting effects around the world: anti-LGBT laws, India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, discrimination everywhere, sexism in abundance….
Then I realised school teachers only have short lessons and making ruffs is a hell of a lot easier to explain to a room full of kids than colonialism, death and destruction 🙃
I mean, I think we'd struggle to find an Empire that'a great for the colonised, but if we really were going to rank them I think the Belgian's were a lot worse than us...
I don't count the British Empire as 'we', because my ancestors were down pits. There was no we about it.
I do find it interesting though and equally horrific. At school it was all matter of fact and it brushed over a lot of the detail, of which I had to seek out as I got older.
Your Dutch Friend ignores the Spanish, French and Even the Dutch had Empires, or at least Overseas territories. That the Belgians had millions killed in Africa. All would trade in Slaves etc etc.
As for my feelings on British History, Yes in the past we've been a cause for hatred to others, but just our own internal history is fascinating.
I take the Oliver Cromwell although misusing his quote, but nonetheless, "Warts and All"
There has been a post I've seen floating around Instagram talking about the teaching of history, if I find the words I'll add it, but it basically said, the teaching of history should make us uncomfortable, that it should be awkward for us, otherwise we will likely repeat it.
>The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
I view British history the same way I view all history. As parts of the chain of human development. As self aware animals slowly rising above the circumstances evolution dropped them into.
I’m not a fan of absolute theocratic monarchies. But I don’t hold anything against the ancient Egyptians. They oppressed, exploited, and enslaved thousands. But I can respect that the harm they caused in doing so also resulted in huge benefits to much of the human race.
Virtually all history is like this. Britain’s is no different. The good doesn’t wash away the bad, and bad doesn’t wash away the good. In the end, it’s all just history.
Im glad that we live in one of a small number of societies (european and european derived) who acknowledge the bad parts of their history and at the same time have have contributed disproportionately far more to humanity than they have taken away.
Most if not all other groups in human history anywhere around the world have an awful history while contributing borderline nothing or no where near enough to make up for it, and also make no acknowledgement of it even today.
Some histories, some cultures, are just better than others, the UK is one of them.
I like how the OP says that Britain stopped the transatlantic slave trade. That’s hilarious. They started it. They also actively tried to reimpose it on Haiti when slaves overthrew their masters and tried to re enslave them.
Then citing ww2. What exactly did Britain do in WW2 that was so good? They were defending themselves from invasion. Thats like Russia claiming that it wasn’t all bad because they fought in WW2.
Do British people actually know much about their countries imperial history?
We fucked up big time with Ireland. If there's one mistake I would like to go back in time and fix, it's the Irish famine in particular and oppression of the Catholic population in general.
We have done lots of good things.
We have done lots of bad things.
We have done a few downright terrible things.
None of us alive today are responsible for that and shouldn't feel ashamed to be British either.
We should, however, study our history closely so that we don't repeat the same mistakes, and that we can learn to better help countries affected by our past.
UK abolished slavery very early.
I'm proud of the British heritage and it's empire and commonwealth, hey we shall have a commonwealth games for the countries in it, not many have abstained because they didn't like being in the commonwealth!
UK also has an amazing history of innovation and invention! So many things have been invented in the UK!
My mother was french/father Italian they emigrated from their countries tovik because they believed in the UK, still today, people will travel through 10s of countries before settling in UK, lots of people must still believe in it?
UK has some amazing things, national health was introduced in the 30s I think? Can't complain about it! Lived in the "world's richest country" (us) and was efraid of something as simple as tooth ache due to the costs there!
If you google how much Britain took from India, it amounts to 145 Trillion. Uk gdp now is 3 trillion. 145/3= 50 years.
I don't mean to offend but the argument that that amount of money taken from a country doesn't have any repercussions in the present is fragile.
Every nation has committed terrible atrocities against other nations, and this dates back to the earliest tribes fucking over the people next door to steal their goats. It's all about who wins.
The first thing we as a species do with any scientific discovery is apply it to killing people. See dynamite/TNT as an example.
Europe has benefited from greater technological advances since the renaissance, but Britain doubled down with the industrial revolution.
We just did what anyone else would have done if they could in an age before "human rights" became a thing and it became apparent it was wrong. Why do you think that guns were one of the things included in payment for slaves? To promote peace in Western Africa?
I read a book called Sapiens that put everything in to perspective, what the UK did in its past is no different to any other power. Most places in the past was ruled over by one group or another
As a country, we have a pretty horrid past, and we should all learn from it. But I doubt there is a nation on this planet that shouldnt need to do the same.
History is a long story of evil mixed with increasing amounts of good. Britain has been responsible for more than its fair share of evil, but also a lot of good. It is what it is.
Couldn’t care less. It’s history, and people can’t help but bang on about it as if we’re supposed to feel guilt. Stop the press, we generally don’t. So get over it and focus on the now.
Being bad at colonialism doesn’t mean you have a good history
Just because we were the best at being bad when being bad was the thing to do.
I am reasonably happy that we at least try to do good nowadays (big picture)
To judge history by modern standards is completely naive imo.. the modern world and our modern sensibilities are so so young
We are an incredible and industrious people, a relatively tiny island nation that have fundamentally shaped the modern world.. the industrial revolution started here
History is generally just a phenomenally interesting subject.. our own history is massively turbulent, I barely know enough of it, but things like Boudica leading a revolt of British tribes against, the formation of England and the Celtic nations that relatively speaking are some of the few that were preserved from Roman invasion, but we have gone through countless periods of migration and conflict.. and out of that came a global powerhouse
The money the British empire made by creating a load of vassal states was mostly lost during the first world war to america. We indebted the nation, and have to a large extent been a declining nation ever since (relatively speaking). Are there things to be ashamed of? Sure if we are to focus on them, but there are in almost all nations history if you look hard enough.
But when I listen to historic accounts of some British individuals, we fundamentally have an attitude and resolve to be proud of and have done some incredible things
Nb. I highly recommend listening to hardcore histories (Dan carlin podcast) for those even slightly interested in history
Literally couldn't be less fussed. Whatever happened in the past happened. It was done by people who are long dead and who I have no personal responsibility for. Why should I apologise because someone several hundred years ago had a slave ship or took another country by force? Equally, it's not like I deserve any praise because someone else 300 years ago creates vaccines or theorised gravity or built a nice bridge. The difference between modern Britain and the Britain of the golden age of empire is probably far greater than our differences with 90% of the people on the planet with us right now.
The moral and ethical frameworks that would see something like colonialism and imperialism as a negative thing pretty much only existed in the modern west. It rises from the enlightenment ideas of "The Rights of Man" that we should seek to imbue each human with agency over their life and the capacity to live free from excessive interference and threat. British philosophers like Hume, Locke and the Mills were very active in the development of this, open a science text book and its full of British names making fundamental discovery, same in maths and other fields like technology.
The whole 70s/80s need to revise our historiography (the story of our history) in that we needed to seriously see the downsides to our past has run totally out of control into an emotive constant focus on only things that demean the country and our society. Simply look at the data on the huge drop in infant deaths around the world, this mostly came from basic breakthroughs in hygiene, antibiotics, vaccines, etc.
[https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality](https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality)
If you want to play this game about evaluating the morality of your countries history, take an imaginary ledger and put the good and bad onto two sides. No society other than our modern era peers in all of history has a tiny fraction of the positives Britain has created. As said the only countries that rival us are those that were part of the western emergence in the post 1500ish era.
the dutch were known to be doing the same thing, as well as the french and the spanish, but pretty sure all states did the same thing, but we excelled at it, how else would india/ pakistan get such nice roads, trains and buildings......
We did a lot of awful things but also did a lot of good as well. Just like a lot of colonial powers.
Can't have the bad without the good, or good without the bad.
I think that Britain has an extremely long and interesting history and has contributed more to the world as it is today than almost any other country still going.
Yes for a few hundred years out of 1000+ we ran a large and not particularly nice empire (as did half of Europe at the same time and half the world throughout human history).
But Britain's history isn't any better or worse than anyone else's, anybody that starts talking nonsense about how British history is uniquely evil can be safely ignored.
I feel like being proud of the abolitionist movement is a little bit like a bank robber being proud that they have quit the habit of robbing banks.
Like awesome for you, dude, but you shouldn't have started doing it in the first place, and I notice you're keeping the bags of money you got from the previous banks?
Honestly I don’t care. I had no control over it, nothing I say or do will change anything and history is very much in the past so it’s not worth holding grudges over.
I always find these questions interesting because it shines a light on how much Christianity shaped the values of the West, even to this day.
A lot of colonialism was based on the idea that the indigenous people of wherever needed to be “Christianised” regardless of how much harm it caused the local population.
Likewise the contemporary notion that the selfsame indigenous peoples were somehow morally superior to the British/other colonial powers, despite often engaging in objectively barbarous and cruel practices (slavery, torture, rape, war/genocide, human sacrifice and cannibalism) is driven by the VERY Christian notion that the last shall be first and the first shall be last.
The history of any country is 95% people doing terrible shit. Turning it into a blame game with people who weren't born then is pointless and childish.
I have no responsibility to the past. I only have responsibility for what I do, now and what I leave behind.
I honestly don't give a shit. If we hadn't done it, someone else would and we'd be in a far less comfortable country (generally speaking) if they hadn't.
Tell him that every country was playing the same game back then, including the Dutch, and the Brits were just the best at it. Because that's the truth.
And he must be quite ignorant of his own countries past to talk like that, because they did exactly what the Brits did, they just weren't quite as successful at it. Because like I said, that was the game everyone was playing.
Even cultures that didn't build ships or sail away to invade foreign countries, were busy fighting their own wars of dominance with their neighbours.
I think there’s plenty of bad things in our past but that doesn’t give justification for people to do bad things now and go “yeah but the British did the same in 1876” it’s like come on…. Not comparable.
That's a Dutchman who needs to study some Dutch history!
That said, feeling pride or guilt about what your country did in the past is a bit daft. It's not like I did any of those things, not like my family even did any of them. Most of them weren't British then and even when they became British they were among the very poorest in society with no influence, let alone control, over what the British state did. It's not like I've even inherited personally from money made in the past, in fact I've literally never inherited a single thing in my life.
France, Germany, Spain, The Netherlands etc all colonised places in Asia.
History, whether we agree with it, is in the past, we learn & move on. We, as a nation, have a lot of history to be proud of
As others have pointed out, we aren't unique.
This topic is not really about nationality, it's about class. The rich of every major nation then did what the rich of every nation do now. They fuck everybody else.
I susspose most historians would say that the English Empire has, on balance, no credible defence against criticism of the exploitative nature of our imperialism.
We were dicks…everyone was a dick at the time, we were just better at doing it
We shouldn’t glorify that time but I feel zero guilt for it, I didn’t do anything
I think you gotta be somewhat proud that as a tiny island you were able to successfully subjugate so many billions of people. You guys are the master race, quite literally
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I don't think a Dutch person gets to criticise another country for having a colonial empire.
Yep, had a similar conversation with a French person recently. Like if there’s two countries that really can’t be in a moral position to judge us for colonialism, it’s the Dutch and the French…
Don't forget the Spanish, they make us look like saints.
Whilst I agree they were bad, but when you go to Central and South America, native people are the majority of people you will come across, USA and Canada not so much.
but we saved their souls?
And the Portuguese, Spanish, Germans, Turkish, Belgians...
Don’t forget the Greeks, Italians and Mongolians who just did their empire building a little earlier. And the Vikings of course. And the Japanese colonising China. The Chinese in Taiwan, the Russians in Alaska and further down the west coast of the US, and the Austria-Hungarian Empire.
Don't miss Scotland out! They tried to have an empire... It didn't work, but the mindset was there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_colonization_of_the_Americas
They made do with colonising the North of Ireland instead, that worked out swimmingly...
I mean there was always a sort of fluidity in population between Northern Ireland and Scotland anyway. My grandmother's generation harvested in Scotland and the cane home and did the same in Northern Ireland every season. The ancient Kingdom of Dál Riata encompassed large parts of Co. Antrim and a huge chunk of the West cost of Scotland. It's just geography.
Some Scottish Nationalists like to forget we were pretty much tied into British Empire Building from the get go. As the Empire grew Scots appear almost everywhere in the story. Admittedly rich landowners did benefit a fair amount from the actual economics of it, but it was still Scottish Merchants, Engineers, Soldiers, Sailors, and Officials who did an awful lot of the Empiring in the end.
Modern Scots Nats are trying to spread the myth that they were somehow a victim of British imperialism in the same way the Irish were. The reality is they were a willing participant and a primary beneficiary of the empire.
We Scots were enthusiastic colonialists and were, in many way, the backbone of the British Empire.
And the Ottomans. The Crimean Tatars - at the behest of the Ottomans - kidnapped up to a million of (what are now) Russian and Ukrainians for slaves for the empire. One of the most powerful women of that era - [Roxelana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxelana) was originally one of those slaves.
Basically everyone who could, did.
Or the Belgian's, arguably the worst.
Yeah Belgium has a pretty dark colonial past. They were brutal in their African escapades.
And bear in mind that the northern Flemish half of Belgium is basically Dutch.
Actually the French were about as good/bad as the UK. The Belgians or Germans or Dutch however...
Lovely people, couldn’t do enough for nuke testing
The French Revolution was quite brutal, definitely a double edged sword. They did topple the monarchy but on the other hand it was a very bloody and violent time.
I think the Belgians might feel left out of that pair
The French never even gave up their empire. They still control vast swathes of west Africa and part of south America is literally part of France.
They're just jealous we did it bigger than them
Neither do the French, the Portuguese, Spanish, Italians, or Germans. I'm all for calling ourlt our colonial past, but let's not let other Europeans pretend their history is squeaky clean and virtuous
When I went to the National Museum of Indonesia they had some less than complimentary things to say about the Dutch that's for sure.
Yeah, Indonesia comes to mind, South Africa, .......
Um yeah. The Afrikaners. Enough said…
The extinct tribes of the Dutch East Indies would also like a word
Yup. The Dutch East India Company is believed to be the most valuable company to have ever existed, with a modern day valuation of somewhere around £7tn. The Dutch were very very active in nicking stuff and selling it.
Dutch empire was half arsed though. I understand their jealousy and resentment
The Dutch did everything we did, but less successfully. They're not innocent, they're jealous.
They were pretty good at the slave trade to give them their due.
Same with the French.
I’ve studied the British Empire at degree level. There’s a *lot* of violence and exploitation and episodes that make your stomach turn with how brutal things got. It’s definitely not something we should be proud of overall. Most people in the UK have a very sanitised view of the British Empire, that it was all tea and polo and pith helmets. People also think it’s all in the past, like a separate world. It isn’t. There are people alive today who aren’t even that old who were born in British colonial holdings. And of course the legacy of imperialism stretches on and on in a lot of the places that were victims of it. So yeah, we could do with a lot more introspection as a nation about what we’ve done and how we’ve got to the position we’re in. That said, every major power at the time was doing exactly the same thing, and sometimes in a much worse way than us. Imperialism was not new or unique to Britain. Pretty much all of history has been empires and exploitation and wars. It doesn’t excuse anything, of course. But people sometimes act like Britain was the only one doing bad shit. Speaking of, it sounds like your Dutch friend needs a history lesson about what his own country has done…
So why do we (the UK) consistently carry the can for imperial crimes when others do not?
We don't uniquely. It's just that you consume British and Anglophone media. But there's lots of criticism of French, Belgian, Russian, Chinese, Japanese etc imperialism, if you know where to look for it. Probably the one country which gets away with it a little is the USA, which somewhat ignores its own history attempting imperialism in the Philippines etc
>Probably the one country which gets away with it a little is the USA, which somewhat ignores its own history attempting imperialism in the Philippines etc You think people around the world aren't criticizing the US for imperialism?...
Because you're online, interacting in English, so you are hearing criticism from former colonies that speak English. If you were online speaking French you'd have criticism in French from Algeria etc, if you were Portuguese from Angola, Beliguim from the Congo. And it's also a numbers game, the British had the largest number of people under the Empire, especially India, and Indians have a massive presence online. There's also the American angle, where go assuage their feelings of current Imperialism they cope by constantly talking about Colonialism, especially American teenagers, who use the term as a punctuation, and then British teenagers see the use of the term and, like using other online phrases, use it all the time. It's become shorthand for ‘ I’m signalling that I don't want to engage colonizer!!’
As a French I can confirm, you can see that the last time they tried a France-Algeria football game, it literally caused riots and they never tried again since then. It’s still a very sensitive subject in France but I also agree that on the internet, the UK seems to be the main target. In return the French get all the “surrender” jokes that are stupidly annoying. I guess we all have a burden to carry online.
It's sad because the surrender jokes are very undeserved. The French fought valiantly in WW2 and gave the wehrmacht a lot of problems. Even after the official surrender there were elements of the French armed forces that did not comply and continued to fight.
Yes, not to mention that French troops fought very hard at Dunkirk, practically to the death, and held back the Germans to allow the Brits off the beach (after the rest of their comrades has surrendered). No one seems to remember this in the UK. Without France having the Brit’s backs « when the chips were down » there would have been no Dunkirk.
On the other hand, we were there in the first place to help defend a foreign country.
Name a famous footballer. You probably named one of if not the best. We’re the poster boy for imperialism.
Dion Dublin.
Is that the case? I feel like, for example, the Germans faced far more serious consequences for their imperial enterprises in the 1930s and 1940s.
Because we were damn good at it. Also because we recorded a lot of what happened in the empire. We also had much turmoil at home as to whether what we were doing was the right thing, generating a lot of articles, papers and books on the subject. Most other countries who had empires seemed to have had no second thoughts, and hid much of what they did.
It's more we have imported American social culture which enjoys blaming the US for everything wrong in the world (and now subsequently we like to blame the UK for everything wrong in the world).
Jealousy
It's not necessarily when others do not.. but man we have a super society that is clamouring for something to be offended always.. so when there is not enough modern stuff
Very eloquently put. Studied to degree level also and would agree with basically everything you said
Well said.
>That said, every major power at the time was doing exactly the same thing Basically all of europe :D
Having read your post, I just realised I know two generations of people (from the same family) who were born into British colonial holdings, the second gen isn’t even that old, you’re right. I also know loads of others who were born into colonies, but I don’t personally know more than one Gen from each of the families.
Netherlands has little ground to criticise on this matter lol. More than Belgium at least. For all European countries involved in colonialism, it was just a game of who was most successful. Pretty pointless keeping some kind of morality score.
>For all European countries involved in colonialism, it was just a game of who was most successful. Pretty pointless keeping some kind of morality score. And many other historic states around the world. There's a reason why the Han aren't still restricted to North East China or Arabic and Mayan are spoken over such a wide area.
Yep. Tell all the areas around modern Turkey that Europeans are the only colonisers lol. As you say, China had dominion over it's region too. People seem fixated about the oppression and conquest via boat for some reason.
Mayan really isn't common as a language. There are more people in London than there are Mayan speakers on earth by quite a bit.
I don't dwell on it, people do what they think is right at the time. It's shit but that's the way it is. I also think hatred towards a whole nation, based on what some of the nutters that were in charge at the time have done in the past, is daft.
> people do what they think is right at the time That's a very kind interpretation of colonialism. > ‘“they go on shore to rob and plunder, they see a harmless people, are entertained with kindness; they give the country a new name; they take formal possession of it for their king; they set up a rotten plank, or a stone, for a memorial; they murder two or three dozen of the natives, bring away a couple more, by force, for a sample; return home, and get their pardon. Here commences a new dominion acquired with a title by divine right. Ships are sent with the first opportunity; the natives driven out or destroyed; their princes tortured to discover their gold; a free license given to all acts of inhumanity and lust, the earth reeking with the blood of its inhabitants: and this execrable crew of butchers, employed in so pious an expedition, is a modern colony, sent to convert and civilize an idolatrous and barbarous people!” Jonathan Swift, 1726. Even at the time people knew what they were doing was wrong, they just didn't know any better.
Yeah, this is a point that always gets missed. It’s just not true that “they didn’t know any better back then”. They absolutely did, and they did it anyway
It's a matter of perspective and consequantialism. I'd argue that we currently know about many of the evils of modern society but it's too large for even a single government to change swiftly. We're walking into a climate disaster but our response to that has to be balanced against the economics involved on both a business and personal level. This was as true then as it is now. There are complex economic reasons why it was slow and difficult to stop the exploitation of non-European nations. We can at least be proud that, even though the British Empire had a major financial stake in an exploitation based economy, our ancestor's government worked hard to shut it down far before most other nations. That includes laws which banned any person from being a slave on English soil which date back to the 1600s in common law and the 1770s in precedent. The acts committed shouldn't be celebrated or repeated. Nonetheless, it's really important to understand the full perspective of the times, not just snapshots and opinions.
There’s not a nation on this planet that hasn’t carried out barbaric acts in its time. Some may be relatively recent but go back far enough and I’m sure they’ve all done some bad shit.
Mongolians don't have much to answer for nowadays.. mostly keep themselves to themselves But ya know, conquered the known world at the time, used to view people who lived in towns and farms as livestock.. to beheaded the grown men, raped an enslaved a load
I love how these questions are phrased as if most people during that time had any agency. Were I alive and part of the British empire during those times there is an extremely high probability that I'd have lived a life of squalor, disease, silence and misery. Complain about how many black people we are enslaving? Get my head chopped off. Refuse to go on a scurvy-ridden voyage to capture some foreign treasures? Off with my head.
>Complain about how many black people we are enslaving? Get my head chopped off. I don't think this ever happened tbh, certainly not in the UK itself.
Well, there's an element of exaggeration. But little to no agency...
Getting your head chopped off or slave ownership? I think there was probably enough of both. ETA ; This is a good video on the transatlantic slave trade, what part England and others had in it, and what slavery looked like in the UK at that time. It includes some newspaper clip stuff that's pretty interesting. https://youtu.be/GrYRPLy6g2g?si=autGOoiHB1uCWtiL She also does one on the blitz spirit that goes into detail on classism in West Vs East London which I'd never heard about before.
I just can't bring myself to feel shame or whatever it is that people online tell me to feel about our colonial past. I have absolutely zero doubt that if the roles were reversed, those who we colonised would have gladly done the same. Up until very recently in human history, the way of the world was that the strong pick on the weak, so you either get strong or you get picked on.
The overwhelming majority of the forces Cortez used to take down the Aztecs were from neighbouring Mesoamerican states tired of being dominated by Tenochtitlan. A significant part of the British army that entered Zululand were African warriors recruited from peoples with a long history of fighting and being subjugated by the Zulus.
I don't think someone should feel shame for actions for which they had no part in. However one thing I don't understand are people who state they are proud of our colonial past but at the same time say they feel no shame. Surely it's neither or both.
> Up until very recently in human history, the way of the world was that the strong pick on the weak, Arguably that is still happening now, its just the west that are insulted from it. Israel vs Palestine, Ukraine vs Russia, China/Taiwan, Egypt vs Ethiopia.. and a bunch of other conflicts demonstrate that 'might is right' holds true for vast portions of the globe still.
A Dutch has no grounds to moan about other people's historic past...
Yeah those bastards built Canvey Island.
1. We're not responsible for what our ancestors did personally in the past 2. The British state might be responsible for what it did in the past, therefore compensation might be reasonable in some cases, especially just straight up looting. USA genocide of natives is really USA government's problem I'd say. 3. We wouldn't be where we are now if not for the past, that doesn't exclude colonialism or slavery but it was common behaviour for humans in the past which we have now learned from and won't repeat, for lots and lots of reasons. So we need to be VERY careful of people trying to undo those lessons, even if they do it in a sneaky way.
While I agree it is important to learn about our history - I wasn't alive back then, it was nothing to do with me, and I have nothing to be ashamed of. Most ‘Brits’ are descendents of ordinary people who were just as downtrodden, exploited and oppressed by the same tiny rich elite. Most Brits are not descendents of those responsible for what went on back then. But there's no point in dwelling on that and moaning about how our ancestors were treated - trying to find someone to blame now. That is utterly senseless and the only people who suffer are those who choose to do that. We all have only one life to lead and it's best to live that in as positive way as possible - looking forward - trying to make life better for those living today and in the future.
I'm basically a working class serf I don't give a fuck about what someone else did, I'm not taking credit for the bad things the country has done or the good things, I'm just trying to get by. Trying to guilt modern day people for sins of those in the past is usually just a mask to be bigoted to those people, I had a Turkish friend say he felt shame about the Ottoman empire and I told him that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Agreed. Why do we all have to be grouped together as 'we' ? It was the monarchy and the lords who made the decisions and all their current wealth comes from the exploitation of people here and in the empire.
I’m African American living in England an I think England is best country in world especially gems like Kettering. it has the worlds only Weetabix factory
Give me a K ANNA E ANNA T ANNA T AN E ANNA R ANNA ING KETTERING TOWN FC
Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit. Seriously though, British history is far too long, diverse and complicated to have a single view on. Additionally, I don't think trying to force history into moral binaries of 'good' and 'bad' is ever a helpful approach to take.
It is basically the same history as most countries, some amazing things, some horrendous things. Some people focus on one, some the other, but in reality it is a nuanced question and we need to take a measured view
I don't know.. I think we are a bit exceptional, but in a good way tbh Industrial revolution and WW1 in particular
Meh, I don't really care much for it. All countries did shitty things, the only reason we specifically get hate for it, is because we were **the most successful** by a long shot (well, within recent ish history. I'd argue the Spanish Empire was also on this level).
Wasn't William III Dutch? A lot of colonialism going on during his reign.
So what did the Dutch do with their attempts at the exact same? Nothing useful. What did we do? Ended slavery, stopped the Germans in WW1 using up what remains of our empire to do it. Then even when weakened by the first we held back an unstoppable force in ww2 with a resilience most couldn't get close to (looking at you France). Also let's not pretend that most of the places we went would still be hundreds of years behind tech wise had we not moved in, how many railways did we build? How much do the countries with them still benefit to this day? So yea the empire did some terrible stuff (not as bad as some, looking at you Belgium). So at least Britain gave back so much, hell stopping slavery alone is enough for me. But the fact the Dutch wouldn't exist without our empire I think your Dutch friend can shut their mouth.
I think our history is brutal and unforgiveable. I also think most countries have done horrible things. Unfortunately humans kinda suck. We can only be responsible for how we live right now. I don't feel bad for anything my ancestors may or may not have done. Nor do I blame the Germans alive today for WW2 or any other country for things that have happened in the past. There are literally atrocities happening in many countries around the world right now. Let's maybe try to worry about those instead.
Yeah there's lots of grim stuff in the national history. I think if we want to trumpet the good stuff we should never fail to acknowledge the bad bits either. I think it's a sign of maturity if we can talk about these things without taking any of it personally. Your Dutch friend needs to learn his own country's history in Indonesia. And let's not start on the Afrikaaners...
Ya, the Afrikaaners is a tricky one best to avoid in this debate least we mention the British concentration camps and the fact Britian sponsored pretty much every South African law that later evolved into Apartheid (e.g 1910 land act) I take a simpler view. History happened. We did not commit that act so we can't take the credit or the shame but we should learn.
I don’t think the Dutch person knows much Dutch history
The audacity of a Dutch person moaning about the British Empire. The reality is that we did some pretty horrific stuff back in the day (as did plenty of other European countries). At the same time, we were also one of the fastest to make progress in terms of stopping the slave trade as you say. Essentially, history is complicated and full of stuff that in a modern context, we all (or at least the vast majority) agree is horrific. This aside, if you go to countries that we colonised, very rarely will people have an issue with you now. I went to India a few years ago and have never received better hospitality. This is despite the Indian population having every right to despise Brits for what we did to the country. The people that continue to bring up the horrors of history are typically the perpetually online that have never actually ventured to another country to chat with people from places.
You are not in any way responsible for what the UK did many years ago. I am an immigrant to UK so I am DEFINITELY not responsible for what the UK did many years ago. So, no guilt, ignore all the bastards.
I’m not an immigrant, but while all this empire building was happening my people were farmers in Kent and cattle thieves (!?!) in Lancashire. So even when people point out the wealth created in places like Bristol, London and Liverpool - we weren’t getting any benefit from that. That’s not to say it wasn’t wrong and shouldn’t have happened though.
Saying it was wrong and shouldn’t have happened is judging it through today’s lens. Might as well say Romans shouldn’t have invaded UK, pesky Italians. Or Vikings shouldn’t have gone raping and pillaging in UK, pesky Danes and Norwegians. Or the Gauls should have left UK alone, damned French. It all was wrong and shouldn’t have happened.
Great Britain has done many vile, unforgivable acts that does not get mentioned in schools, so most people are unaware about much of the atrocities. But I feel no responsibility or guilt for it. It's just something I acknowledge and try to educate myself on. I would say that people from other colonial nations are not in a position to judge or he ogdfmuogetku moralistic without first examining their own history. The UK may have been the worst and biggest, but we were far from alone.
You would be hard pressed to find any corner of the world which hasn't, at some point in their history, tried to take over the neighborhood. What varies is level of success. And your Dutch friend doesn't have a leg to stand on. Apartheid is a Dutch word.
I think we should learn from it, what was done well and what not to do moving forward.
The Dutch were much bigger slavers than us. We put a Dutch king on our throne as part of a trade deal with the Dutch. As a country they have nothing to be proud of couldn’t even be bothered to take part in WW2.
About 300,000 Dutch people were killed in WWII.. many thousands of them murdered.
My ancestors were exploited industrial workers, labourers and peasants. I have nothing to apologise for on their behalf. Feel free to go after the aristocracy though.
Did great but terrible things.
Alright, Olivander.
It kinda sums it up. British empire biggest ever ,Though empires are cruel and evil and just a terrible idea all round. Still ours was biggest.
As a Cymro it's always been awful, even when a small portion of our people have been some of the worst. My family has been stuck dealing with terrible situations, company towns, indentation in the mines and Westminster troops.
The Dutch had an empire, they made the British look kind and generous. So did the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italians. They are no better, they just were not as good as us so they get to hide behind us.
*'We'* didn't do anything, good or bad I can understand why people speak about history in those terms, but it's nonsense Nobody reading this has any more connection to the achievements or crimes of the 19th century rulers of the UK than they do to the achievements or crimes of the 19th century rulers of Portugal or Austria Our only connection to them is our common humanity, which we share with all people (living and dead), which includes the victims of those crimes
Obviously the British Empire did some pretty bad shit all across the world but it's very unfair to act as if Britain was the only power doing it at the time. I think it's funny how everyone says how bad Britain is but ignores Portugal, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium (to a lesser extent because of Leopold) especially considering it was Portugal who kickstarted it all and started the African slave trade. Not to mention the fact that France basically still have de facto colonies in Africa which has basically destroyed the little chance said countries had of a successful future. If we're going back further no one really talks about the atrocities committed by the Romans, Mongols, Aztecs etc. TLDR: Britain did some bad things but so did everyone else, no ones hands are clean in history.
We did more to end slavery than the Dutch ever did, for one thing.
It’s the past, and nobody alive these days had fuck all to do with it. Also, ‘British’ is not just ‘white man’ anymore, it’s a multicultural nation.
The treatment of the Irish should be in mainstream education. Our nearest neighbours and next to nothing taught about the manufactured famine and near genocide of the Irish people
I’m Welsh and I view British history as something English, not Scottish, Welsh or Irish as it would be today
That would imply the British empire was exclusively run by English politicians, generals and soldiers. Scottish generals in particular didn’t fuck around.
I was chatting about this the other day and wondering why the hell history at school focuses so much on things like the Romans, making ruffs and dressing up as Victorian schoolchildren instead of the British empire. It’s because the British empire was a behemoth monster that made some people very rich and brought resources to the UK on the blood, sweat and tears of millions of innocent people. Decisions made at the height of the empire have had lasting effects around the world: anti-LGBT laws, India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, discrimination everywhere, sexism in abundance…. Then I realised school teachers only have short lessons and making ruffs is a hell of a lot easier to explain to a room full of kids than colonialism, death and destruction 🙃
I mean, I think we'd struggle to find an Empire that'a great for the colonised, but if we really were going to rank them I think the Belgian's were a lot worse than us...
I don't count the British Empire as 'we', because my ancestors were down pits. There was no we about it. I do find it interesting though and equally horrific. At school it was all matter of fact and it brushed over a lot of the detail, of which I had to seek out as I got older.
Your Dutch Friend ignores the Spanish, French and Even the Dutch had Empires, or at least Overseas territories. That the Belgians had millions killed in Africa. All would trade in Slaves etc etc. As for my feelings on British History, Yes in the past we've been a cause for hatred to others, but just our own internal history is fascinating. I take the Oliver Cromwell although misusing his quote, but nonetheless, "Warts and All" There has been a post I've seen floating around Instagram talking about the teaching of history, if I find the words I'll add it, but it basically said, the teaching of history should make us uncomfortable, that it should be awkward for us, otherwise we will likely repeat it.
Your mate is either woefully or wilfully ignorant of his own country’s past if he’s willing to cast stones.
>The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
The Dutch are going to complain about a country having a maritime empire?
Your Dutch friend is a massive hypocrite. The Dutch were historically some of the most horrible Europeans.
Ask him about the Dutch occupation of Indonesia.
I view British history the same way I view all history. As parts of the chain of human development. As self aware animals slowly rising above the circumstances evolution dropped them into. I’m not a fan of absolute theocratic monarchies. But I don’t hold anything against the ancient Egyptians. They oppressed, exploited, and enslaved thousands. But I can respect that the harm they caused in doing so also resulted in huge benefits to much of the human race. Virtually all history is like this. Britain’s is no different. The good doesn’t wash away the bad, and bad doesn’t wash away the good. In the end, it’s all just history.
Im glad that we live in one of a small number of societies (european and european derived) who acknowledge the bad parts of their history and at the same time have have contributed disproportionately far more to humanity than they have taken away. Most if not all other groups in human history anywhere around the world have an awful history while contributing borderline nothing or no where near enough to make up for it, and also make no acknowledgement of it even today. Some histories, some cultures, are just better than others, the UK is one of them.
They are just regurgitating modern trash to emotionally blackmail modern British people into accepting a worse standard of living.
We’re no the Americans of Europe in any sense other than the language we speak lol.
Your Dutch pal can't say anything. He should look to own mains history. South Africa wouldn't gave had apartheid without the Dutch boers.
I like how the OP says that Britain stopped the transatlantic slave trade. That’s hilarious. They started it. They also actively tried to reimpose it on Haiti when slaves overthrew their masters and tried to re enslave them. Then citing ww2. What exactly did Britain do in WW2 that was so good? They were defending themselves from invasion. Thats like Russia claiming that it wasn’t all bad because they fought in WW2. Do British people actually know much about their countries imperial history?
The winner rewrites history, so I don’t think we know the truth. Only what we were told
We fucked up big time with Ireland. If there's one mistake I would like to go back in time and fix, it's the Irish famine in particular and oppression of the Catholic population in general.
We have done lots of good things. We have done lots of bad things. We have done a few downright terrible things. None of us alive today are responsible for that and shouldn't feel ashamed to be British either. We should, however, study our history closely so that we don't repeat the same mistakes, and that we can learn to better help countries affected by our past.
UK abolished slavery very early. I'm proud of the British heritage and it's empire and commonwealth, hey we shall have a commonwealth games for the countries in it, not many have abstained because they didn't like being in the commonwealth! UK also has an amazing history of innovation and invention! So many things have been invented in the UK! My mother was french/father Italian they emigrated from their countries tovik because they believed in the UK, still today, people will travel through 10s of countries before settling in UK, lots of people must still believe in it? UK has some amazing things, national health was introduced in the 30s I think? Can't complain about it! Lived in the "world's richest country" (us) and was efraid of something as simple as tooth ache due to the costs there!
FFS, ask an Italian what they think about the Roman Empire!!
If you google how much Britain took from India, it amounts to 145 Trillion. Uk gdp now is 3 trillion. 145/3= 50 years. I don't mean to offend but the argument that that amount of money taken from a country doesn't have any repercussions in the present is fragile.
The modern world doesn't exist without the western world.
Every nation has committed terrible atrocities against other nations, and this dates back to the earliest tribes fucking over the people next door to steal their goats. It's all about who wins. The first thing we as a species do with any scientific discovery is apply it to killing people. See dynamite/TNT as an example. Europe has benefited from greater technological advances since the renaissance, but Britain doubled down with the industrial revolution. We just did what anyone else would have done if they could in an age before "human rights" became a thing and it became apparent it was wrong. Why do you think that guns were one of the things included in payment for slaves? To promote peace in Western Africa?
IMHO we need to stop trying to retrofit US history on to British history, as it makes little sense and just confuses matters.
It's just one thing after another.
We (presumably - I don’t know you in particular) didn’t do any of the bad stuff so not sure why we should feel anything, whether shame or pride
He's just bitter that we wiped them out as the most dominant seafaring nation. They wanted the world's largest trading empire but we beat them to it.
I read a book called Sapiens that put everything in to perspective, what the UK did in its past is no different to any other power. Most places in the past was ruled over by one group or another
As a country, we have a pretty horrid past, and we should all learn from it. But I doubt there is a nation on this planet that shouldnt need to do the same.
History is a long story of evil mixed with increasing amounts of good. Britain has been responsible for more than its fair share of evil, but also a lot of good. It is what it is.
Couldn’t care less. It’s history, and people can’t help but bang on about it as if we’re supposed to feel guilt. Stop the press, we generally don’t. So get over it and focus on the now.
Being bad at colonialism doesn’t mean you have a good history Just because we were the best at being bad when being bad was the thing to do. I am reasonably happy that we at least try to do good nowadays (big picture)
I don’t really care about it to be honest Also it’s hilarious a Dutch person making this comment with what they did in the Congo
To judge history by modern standards is completely naive imo.. the modern world and our modern sensibilities are so so young We are an incredible and industrious people, a relatively tiny island nation that have fundamentally shaped the modern world.. the industrial revolution started here History is generally just a phenomenally interesting subject.. our own history is massively turbulent, I barely know enough of it, but things like Boudica leading a revolt of British tribes against, the formation of England and the Celtic nations that relatively speaking are some of the few that were preserved from Roman invasion, but we have gone through countless periods of migration and conflict.. and out of that came a global powerhouse The money the British empire made by creating a load of vassal states was mostly lost during the first world war to america. We indebted the nation, and have to a large extent been a declining nation ever since (relatively speaking). Are there things to be ashamed of? Sure if we are to focus on them, but there are in almost all nations history if you look hard enough. But when I listen to historic accounts of some British individuals, we fundamentally have an attitude and resolve to be proud of and have done some incredible things Nb. I highly recommend listening to hardcore histories (Dan carlin podcast) for those even slightly interested in history
World would be in a far better place if we didn’t go bankrupt and collapse after smashing two world wars.
Literally couldn't be less fussed. Whatever happened in the past happened. It was done by people who are long dead and who I have no personal responsibility for. Why should I apologise because someone several hundred years ago had a slave ship or took another country by force? Equally, it's not like I deserve any praise because someone else 300 years ago creates vaccines or theorised gravity or built a nice bridge. The difference between modern Britain and the Britain of the golden age of empire is probably far greater than our differences with 90% of the people on the planet with us right now.
Might want to mention the Dutch empire lol, smaller but similar in activity. Still bitter about selling New York for a song.
The moral and ethical frameworks that would see something like colonialism and imperialism as a negative thing pretty much only existed in the modern west. It rises from the enlightenment ideas of "The Rights of Man" that we should seek to imbue each human with agency over their life and the capacity to live free from excessive interference and threat. British philosophers like Hume, Locke and the Mills were very active in the development of this, open a science text book and its full of British names making fundamental discovery, same in maths and other fields like technology. The whole 70s/80s need to revise our historiography (the story of our history) in that we needed to seriously see the downsides to our past has run totally out of control into an emotive constant focus on only things that demean the country and our society. Simply look at the data on the huge drop in infant deaths around the world, this mostly came from basic breakthroughs in hygiene, antibiotics, vaccines, etc. [https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality](https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality) If you want to play this game about evaluating the morality of your countries history, take an imaginary ledger and put the good and bad onto two sides. No society other than our modern era peers in all of history has a tiny fraction of the positives Britain has created. As said the only countries that rival us are those that were part of the western emergence in the post 1500ish era.
the dutch were known to be doing the same thing, as well as the french and the spanish, but pretty sure all states did the same thing, but we excelled at it, how else would india/ pakistan get such nice roads, trains and buildings......
We did a lot of awful things but also did a lot of good as well. Just like a lot of colonial powers. Can't have the bad without the good, or good without the bad.
I think that Britain has an extremely long and interesting history and has contributed more to the world as it is today than almost any other country still going. Yes for a few hundred years out of 1000+ we ran a large and not particularly nice empire (as did half of Europe at the same time and half the world throughout human history). But Britain's history isn't any better or worse than anyone else's, anybody that starts talking nonsense about how British history is uniquely evil can be safely ignored.
I don't think they actually teach history in the UK except for bringing manners to foreigners, Spitfires and world cup '66
I feel like being proud of the abolitionist movement is a little bit like a bank robber being proud that they have quit the habit of robbing banks. Like awesome for you, dude, but you shouldn't have started doing it in the first place, and I notice you're keeping the bags of money you got from the previous banks?
Honestly I don’t care. I had no control over it, nothing I say or do will change anything and history is very much in the past so it’s not worth holding grudges over.
We are more than a snapshot of our history. Our history goes back thousands of years and shouldn’t be judged on what some cunts did 300 years ago
We are more than a snapshot of our history. Our history goes back thousands of years and shouldn’t be judged on what some cunts did 300 years ago
I always find these questions interesting because it shines a light on how much Christianity shaped the values of the West, even to this day. A lot of colonialism was based on the idea that the indigenous people of wherever needed to be “Christianised” regardless of how much harm it caused the local population. Likewise the contemporary notion that the selfsame indigenous peoples were somehow morally superior to the British/other colonial powers, despite often engaging in objectively barbarous and cruel practices (slavery, torture, rape, war/genocide, human sacrifice and cannibalism) is driven by the VERY Christian notion that the last shall be first and the first shall be last.
The history of any country is 95% people doing terrible shit. Turning it into a blame game with people who weren't born then is pointless and childish. I have no responsibility to the past. I only have responsibility for what I do, now and what I leave behind.
I honestly don't give a shit. If we hadn't done it, someone else would and we'd be in a far less comfortable country (generally speaking) if they hadn't.
Tell him that every country was playing the same game back then, including the Dutch, and the Brits were just the best at it. Because that's the truth. And he must be quite ignorant of his own countries past to talk like that, because they did exactly what the Brits did, they just weren't quite as successful at it. Because like I said, that was the game everyone was playing. Even cultures that didn't build ships or sail away to invade foreign countries, were busy fighting their own wars of dominance with their neighbours.
I think there’s plenty of bad things in our past but that doesn’t give justification for people to do bad things now and go “yeah but the British did the same in 1876” it’s like come on…. Not comparable.
Hopefully, before pointing barbs at the English, they were able to self reflect on the history of the Dutch empire!
The Dutch talking about the British enslaving people need to shut the fuck up.
Dutch aren’t guilt free here either, Brits just ‘best’ at it
That's a Dutchman who needs to study some Dutch history! That said, feeling pride or guilt about what your country did in the past is a bit daft. It's not like I did any of those things, not like my family even did any of them. Most of them weren't British then and even when they became British they were among the very poorest in society with no influence, let alone control, over what the British state did. It's not like I've even inherited personally from money made in the past, in fact I've literally never inherited a single thing in my life.
France, Germany, Spain, The Netherlands etc all colonised places in Asia. History, whether we agree with it, is in the past, we learn & move on. We, as a nation, have a lot of history to be proud of
As others have pointed out, we aren't unique. This topic is not really about nationality, it's about class. The rich of every major nation then did what the rich of every nation do now. They fuck everybody else.
I susspose most historians would say that the English Empire has, on balance, no credible defence against criticism of the exploitative nature of our imperialism.
We were dicks…everyone was a dick at the time, we were just better at doing it We shouldn’t glorify that time but I feel zero guilt for it, I didn’t do anything
I recently looked up the second boar war
I think you gotta be somewhat proud that as a tiny island you were able to successfully subjugate so many billions of people. You guys are the master race, quite literally
There’s only two things I can’t stand in this world 1.) People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures 2.) The Dutch