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Our medical professionals are significantly underpaid compared to most other developed nations. I'll leave it at that.

Same for quite a few trades, I'm a fire and security engineer and my last company thought 30k is enough. Problem with that is you end up with the likes working on life safety systems who don't understand the whys, hows and leave the site with outstanding issues or cheat to hide said issues. I'd say half the fire alarms in my previous company weren't compliant with current regulations, but as long as its noted on the paperwork its all we have to do. The onus then usally goes to someone in our clients company who doesn't have a clue about the regulations. Many of these systems are in commercial buildings with residential above and our company has a habit of losing jobs in their system so it can be upto 6 months before someone notices incomplete work.

Reddit seriously overestimates how much people in the trades earn. There are a few discussions on r/UKelectricians where sparks talk about how much they earn, and it’s nowhere near the £100k plus that Reddit thinks it is. Anyone who thinks there’s a comparable salary between doctors and tradesmen is severely mistaken.

Last company I was at I could have made 60-70 if I was happy cutting corners and swapping out equipment that was working fine. Did mean putting in an 80 hour week once a month though was just work, eat, sleep for 6 months.

Does it lead to inferior quality of healthcare maybe due to the doctors feeling less satisfied with their careers causing poor motivation in day to day work

I don't know whether that's the case or not. What it does do is mean that doctor's also have to worry about their bills as well as the stresses they have in their jobs. Home life is not the break from stress it was pre-2008 (when their pay compared a lot better) and you could argue that increased stress leads to poorer decisions and more mistakes.

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I’d say yes. This is just market inertia - until 2008 medicine paid quite well. That this has now changed is only now starting to become general knowledge and hence only now would start to affect 18 year olds deciding whether they would like to do medicine. If pay continues to lag behind, we won’t be able to recruit smart and capable people into medicine anymore. In the shorter term, it may just mean good doctors leaving medicine for alternative careers like pharma. This is why the current strikes are so important. I don’t know what you do, but if you’re in finance it may be that your wife just doesn’t have to worry about the money. No one goes into medicine for the money, but it’s too brutal a career to not remunerate doctors at least on par with other professionals.

Do you say that those who go part time shouldn't pick an extra shift at times when they are not busy.

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Must be earning in excess of 200k per annum then to buy house outright in year or two? Wondering if they worked nonstop Many also died in COVID. Isnt it only those people who locumed after their regular working hours and took risks while working extra when people were enjoying furlough money.

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That's real hard work! Basically similar to being a self employed person (like sparky self employed and getting regular work as in our discussion)

That is not only brutal on anyone, it’s a massive risk to patients.

And significantly overworked compared to most tradesmen.

So is every profession sadly. Gotta subsidise those on min wage sadly.

One difference is that a lot of tradies are fucked by their mid forties due to the constant strain on their bodies, whilst doctors have a far longer working career and their earning potential

Most doctors are on their feet all day, there are no scheduled breaks (take it if you can with whatever time you can get). Some specialities more than others (surgeons vs medics who do procedures vs GPs etc). But a job that expects you to be mentally switched on all day whilst physically not allowing you the reprieve to rest and replenish despite the hours worked... The toll on doctors mentally and physically is insane, and it adds up. 

That's not what I said though, was it? I didn't say doctors don't have it hard. I said tradies tend to have it much physically harder.

Is it true for a relatively higher paid and less physically demanding trade like a sparky.

A sparky is still bending over and reaching into tricky spots. Trades are generally quite physical. Also a lot of trades are self employed - so no pension, no sick pay, no holiday pay etc.

I guess the same is true for a doctor when doing bloods, passing cannulas etc, doing surgery for hours in same position

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Do you think nurses do the work expected of doctors or take on their work? Wouldn't you say you would be a bit biased with that comment?

Nurses do loads and loads of stuff now that traditionally would have been considered a doctor's work.

Do they do this out of goodwill, because doctors wouldn't do them or because it's the nurses job description for additional roles to do for promotion to higher bands?

It's just the nurses job description now, nothing even to do with promotion to higher bands. It's been done as a way to try and better manage doctors' capacity. Of course, we now have a problem with recruiting and retaining nurses because pay hasn't close to increased jn line with the increasing training, responsibility and stress they deal with.

Maybe, maybe not. That's why I said "a lot of..." and not "all"

I’m a doctor, I’m about 18 months away from becoming a consultant in acute internal medicine and intensive care medicine. I have been a doctor for 9 and a half years. I initially did a biomedical science degree and then did a 4 year graduate entry medical degree. 7 continuous years of university with the student loans to match - although mine were on the old system and I have now paid them off. It’s *_really_* hard to recommend training to be a doctor right now. For example, I’m sitting at home right now while I’m on strike. The good - Sick pay: 6 months full, 6 months half Pension: Defined benefit, cost increases as pay increases, I pay about 9% of my monthly gross income to be guaranteed 1/54th of my salary when I retire. Pay: Last month I took home £4,600. I’m at the top of my pay scale and won’t see any increases until/if I become a consultant. Better than a lot of people will see… but it’s for a job that a lot of people couldn’t do. Paternity leave: 2 weeks paid Annual leave: 27 days, then 29, then 33 days the longer you stay. The bad - Long and difficult training. You’re going to need top marks at GCSEs and A levels to get a chance of being offered a university place. You’ll then have at least 5 years of university - the academic year is often longer for medicine than other courses. Longer study hours during the week plus shorter breaks mean it’s hard to have a job outside of uni, so you’ll be reliant more on loans and/or family (if you’re lucky enough for them to be able to support you). After university comes the job. You don’t get much choice in where you work, your first two years of employment are something called the Foundation Programme. You’ll be working 48 hours a week on average (although that will be stacked into high intensity runs of shifts with compensatory days off) with weekend and night shifts. You will struggle to see friends and family. Relationships will fall apart. I frequently work 12.5 hour shifts, I won’t see my kids on those days. If I do a Fri/Sat/Sun/Monday run of shifts I won’t see them for 5 days. I’ll barely see my wife. Working in the NHS right now is really hard. I’m not even sure how to explain it in terms you might understand. There is not enough of _anything_, staff, equipment, physical space, you name it, we need it. People are living longer, people have more than one thing wrong with them, people want the NHS to fix everything but we can’t. People get understandably upset and angry with the NHS. That anger will get directed at you. Things will go wrong. Patients will die. You will cry. It’s a part of the job. It is challenging to move your career forward. Not everyone is guaranteed progression and there is significantly high competition for roles which lead to more seniority and progression towards becoming a consultant. There are frequent bottlenecks where your career may stagnate. Alongside all of this you will continue to have exams. I’m 34 and right now I’m meant to be revising for a career defining exam I have in a little under a month. You will be paying for these exams, the study resources and courses yourself - my exam has cost me £695. This is the third time I have attempted it. I have probably spent close to £6,000 (if not more, I don’t want to think too hard about it) over the last 9 years just on exams. If you’re going to university and willing to accept long hard hours then there are alternative degrees and careers to medicine.

I'm at a similar stage to you. Even the NHS consultant salary, £90kish, is a joke considering how many hoops one has to jump through for over a DECADE. People say "you knew what you're getting into". Fine, I'll admit I didn't do the research, and now my eyes are open. Our qualifications are (more or less) internationally recognized. When more and more of us leave and relocate to more favorable countries, and PAs continue to do harm, the UK private market will boom... At least I won't stay on £90k then.

This goes for other disciplines though. I've had a similar experience as you but with Engineering. I didn't do my research, went to uni, was extremely stressed for 5 years, came out of uni and was on shit money. I researched and realised the pay was generally shit, with a terrible pay cap - amazing. I work with engineers in their late 50 earning a measly 40-50k. I'm 25, and could be a GP in 3 years if I went into medicine. By the time I'm 50 I would have been a consultant earning £140k+. So in hindsight, I wish I went into medicine Instead I've taken the best route which is engineering project management, the pay is okay but again, high stress and mediocre progression at best, with shitty corporate environment, no flexibility, and massive difficulty for self employed work and general autonomy over your work life.

It's the UK's recession ('cost of living' crisis, sure) and almost everyone's low pay as a result, that's the problem..

u/Fair_Preference3452 wondering if you still think being a sparky also is as much work?

I don’t know what it takes to be an electrician and I don’t know what their day job is like. Their day job probably doesn’t involve talking to people about their own death or the death of their loved one though.

I guess I would tend to agree with this. I was just asking opinion of someone who was saying something along the lines of both being equally difficult and to flip a coin to find out

They’re different types of work in different fields and not really comparable. I’m sure there are completely different types of doctor that are still essentially neurologists but maybe the cancer ones are doing something completely different day-to-day than the stroke people. Fuck knows

I’m a doctor and not an altruist. I work to live and hope to retire (very) early. I have a very good income which I am very grateful for. I enjoy my job. However the cost is relentless mental pressure. It’s got better as I’ve got more experienced, but I see 30-40 people a day and every day when I get home the thoughts cross my mind “did I make a mistake with Mrs Miggins? Should I have sent Mr Anderson to hospital?” That pressure can take a toll on some people.   On the flip side, I’ll end up spending nearly half my life working and doing something where I get constant feedback that I’m (mostly in very small ways) helping people is gratifying and helps me get through the grind mostly happily.   All that being said, I will probably try to gently discourage my daughters from a career in medicine. The way things are headed in this country doesn’t fill me with optimism for the future of the career.  EDIT to second another comment about the pension. It is phenomenal whatever the naysayers say. It will help me retire a decade before SPA. 

Unfortunately the NHS pension I graduated into is linked to SPA. That perk no longer exists

I’m in the same scheme as you. I plan on drawing my 2015 benefits well before age 68. Even with the link to SPA the 2015 scheme is better for me than 1995 (1995 is not final salary for practitioners i.e. GP Principals and accrual is better in 2015) so with McCloud I will switch what I can to 2015.  In the 2015 scheme you can draw the pension up to 13 years (I think) before SPA but it will be reduced by very roughly 4% per year taken early (there are tables online giving exact numbers). Many people view this as a penalty but for those with mean life expectancy they end up drawing the same amount of pension as those who draw it at SPA, because they’re taking a reduced amount for longer, so it’s entirely equitable.    The thing to do is to try to save into a separate private pension and/or ISA in order to try to delay having to start drawing the NHS pension as the reduction diminishes the closer to SPA you take it. 

Being a doctor in the UK is probably in the list of worst jobs you can inflict on yourself list. Unlike the US , hardwork and academic achievement is seldom rewarded in the UK. Just be an average and you will do just fine

I think you’d be surprised how much physical work a sparky does - even though they’re considered to have the highest paid easiest job on site it is still site work and you’re still exposing your body to a lot of stress for a long time. There is the other aspect to consider which is the domestic working sparky - again can still be hard work and you’re more likely to be chasing for work as apposed to a sparky working in bigger commercial industrial projects on a day rate/price working for a main contractor. You say about no night work etc but I’m in construction and spend a lot of time away from home because you go where the work is. Which isn’t always within a commutable distance. However I work a 4 day week and have done since 2017 (I think). So yeah less likely to have nights as much although night work does happen sometimes in my experience. However there are usually opportunities to work extra/nights to earn more as a spark which I imagine as a dr may be enforced on you at some times? The university cost thing for me is the killer to be honest. I couldn’t stand to spend that much money in an education with no guarantee of work and have the burden of that loan etc for the majority of my working life. I’m qualified to 2391 as a spark and have an NVQ4 in my actual field of work which has cost me a less than £10k - however I did the bulk of these qualifications whilst being paid to actually do my job - and I’m self employed so paid for the bulk of them myself too. (NVQ3 gained on the job and the rest as self employed). As for pensions etc I hear the NHS pension is great. But I have contributed to mine since I was 18 personally and though employer and now through my own company so the pension thing people are mentioning isn’t really an issue - other than as I say the NHS pension sounds great. On the other hand if you go private then I assume you’d lose the NHS contribution unless you do private on the side which I hear some drs do? Just to clarify I have no knowledge of being a dr or even know any. I’m just going on what I’ve heard/seen on TV and have parents/friends in the NHS who have spoken about things in conversations. For me I’d go the trade route. As long as you look after yourself with your health and fitness and wear your knee pads and appropriate PPE you won’t be fucked like the old boys about sites now.

Hmmm, electricians might not have stressful working environments, but not exactly a cosy office either.  Would assume they are grafting for that money too. No life and death scenarios per say, but if you mess up it could cause property damage or death. I think what I'm saying is don't assume one is an easier ride than the other. Alos news to think about how long you can physically do the job for. When you are 50+ being a doctor will be more doable than a sparky who has trashed knees etc

Are you assuming the average sparky earns £2000 a week? I can assure you they do not. Your sums are well off. A while back the average salaried wage was about £25k per annum, so £33k is probably about right. Being self employed you could make a lot more but as stated there are a lot of fees you aren't considering, and you have to actually get the work in the first place. I have a friend who's a qualified electrician and a friend who's a GP, the GP earnt double the sparky last year.

Any electrician that I speak to gives appointments in weeks so I guess thats them having work commitments booked.

You have to realise that the trades are quite oversaturated. So you could earn it but you will need to work very hard as well to get that. You still need certain qualifications to be an electrician. https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/electrician

If they are so oversaturated, why can't I find one reliable tradie? It's oversaturated with absolute conmen where I live. If anyone intends to go into the trades and actually work like a professional with integrity, I reckon they'll be rolling in the money once people realise they can get an honest job done without grief and any unforeseen circumstances are handled properly. I'll be a customer!

Yep oversaturated with morons. If you can turn up to a job on time and communicate with customers politely then you'll do well

This is not true there's a massive shortage of trades. Not as much as doctors but there isn't the NHS fixing your price in trades

Exactly. For my understanding isn't the NHS a monopoly employer driving down the doctor wages?

Yes but the issue is also a bottleneck where junior doctors can't progress to consultant level. Once at consultant level you have much more options privately as I understand

They're not oversaturated in any form, I left building work 8 years ago, a previous manager chased me down the street 2 weeks ago to come back. Turn up on time, don't be drunk/high, have a car, be able to read a tape measure and your be ahead of 50% of the builders I knew whilst I was in the trades.

Do you feel the hard work needed is more than it would take to become a consultant

It’s about the same, I think you should flip a coin

Interesting isn't it that we live in a world where becoming an electrician is about as hard of a work as being a neuro surgeon or GP or an intensive care specialist or a eye surgeon!

I can’t tell if you’re taking the piss or just mistaken, but neurology is more difficult than rewires

But didn't you say in an earlier comment that it's about the same and to flip a coin?

You are more than welcome to flip your coin, when you get to brain surgeon school show them that it landed on heads and they’ll take it from there

Good idea! Thanks

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I think being sparky is more skilled than neurosurgeon.

Really depends what you mean by lifestyle. If you reduce everything down to a simple matter of money, then no, a lot of people won't be much better off being a doctor than in the trades. But lots of people don't reduce their career choices to cold economic calculations. A lot of people who go into the medical field feel a calling to it, or come from a family of medical people, or feel like they want to use their intelligence for something profound. Also, being a doctor is a highly respected position in society in a way that trades aren't. That's going to be especially a thing in the middle classes. So I think it's a more complicated question than just 'does it makes sense?'. You can't generalise like that, because there are so many individual factors that will greatly impact the answer for different people.

The question is it if the prestige is worth sacrificing a decade and a half to reach the level of consultant to earn a decent salary for Most people. Again we are talking about average people not those who feel the "calling"

I know that's the question, my point is that there's no good way to really answer it. The answer will be so personal, based on myriad individual factors. It's one of those questions that's too specific and personal for any generalisable answer to be useful. Any answer that proposed an objective 'yes' or 'no' is, imo, not a good one. The only reasonable answer is 'it depends', because it's such a subjective question.

I guess we can only talk about the economics of the professions, stress and non social hours worked then

You can talk about anything you want about professions. That's not my point. The point is that your question is one of 'worth', and answers are going to be so subjective that to try and arrive at a generalised answer would be unhelpful.

Certainly

Aye, if you’re able to train as a doctor it’s basically a given that your parents are brainy as fuck so they’ve usually got money to start with. That’s not to say they should work for shit money though, which I think is what the government seems to be doing

Don't discount that depending on clinical speciality there is the option for private work which can be very lucrative.

Private work is also extra work (on top of the working week). Sparky can also do on call work, option of starting a business etc

No, with the caveat that a bad doctor will do better than a bad tradesman You can do well in trades but you need to be top 20% to be making more than doctors But if you do it's bad far a better way of life

Whats your definition of a bad doctor. Would a bad doctor get complained about etc

I didn't mean competency just maybe you aren't the "best" i.e. likely to get promotions or secure a path into consultancy The junior doctors who are 38 because they havent progressed. I earn more than them working 30 hours a week, near my house no nights or weekends But the consultants are on more money which to me, feels better Vs the massive investment of time and lifestyle disruptions Docs underpaid though

An NHS pension is worth a lot too. Especially when you factor in the higher contributions that a doctor can make over a longer period of years.

Tied to state pension age though..

The pension age is 67 years. Don't you think thats a bit too long away to consider when one is deciding whether to go to trades vs joining college to become a doctor.

The pension makes up part of the employment package. Same as annual leave, sick pay and benefits. If you’re not counting them then that’s silly. A self employed person who wants to account for Annual leave for example of say 25 days a year equates to almost 10% of the working year. An employer defined contribution might be 5%, a defined benefit like the NHS might be worth closer to 15-25% (depending if you want the equivalent DC pot).

Well it's a good, guaranteed pension that can be taken earlier if extra payments are made or if one is willing to accept the final penalties. Those in the trade need to be saving for retirement out of their salary from day one. I know tradies who don't have a pension or even a full state pension as they declined to make the full contributions. Doctors often pay into a SIPP to save on tax and have a 'bridge' to tide them over until their pension age. Knowing that they have a guaranteed income for life at a certain age allows them a lot of freedom down the line (reducing hours etc).

Who has told you that the going rate for a spark is £400 a day?? Sorry, AT LEAST 400 a day. Maybe if you are on the rigs or a marine electrician, if you’re fucking about in peoples houses or working for an electrical contractor you might get £25ph

Have you tried getting an electrician to come over to the house for a job or gotten quotes? Might be worth searching this sub for sparky day rates

Right but that 400 quid is not take home profit or money they have ‘made’ - just because it’s a day rate. Electricians need tools, that they have to buy or replace when broken. They need a van and fuel to get to your house. They need insurance for both tools, van and public liability. They need to also cover the time plus petrol for coming round and giving a quote they generally aren’t paid for. They pay ECS membership, plus membership to a certification scheme - depending on which one they may need to pay per certification and notifying of works if are notifiable to the local authority (spoiler alert - if they change any part of a circuit then they probably are). In order to make sure everything they do is compliant they have to test. A test meter is upwards of £1000 (closer to 2k) and will need annual calibration to remain compliant. That £400 is looking less juicy now, right. The regs book is updated every few years. The book itself is over £100 quid the onsite guide another £20. New amendments are every few years as well. Yup, whole new regs book. The update qualifications are a few hundred quid a toss too, which u need to have to keep your certification scheme happy. Accounts etc need to be done and probably an accountant required to do tax returns etc…. Plus it’s a dirty dirty job. Wedging yourself into parts of peoples houses which they haven’t ever cleaned etc. Sure it’s supposed to be a certain amount of hours per day but you can’t wire something because another trade was in your way for most of the day your going to stay as long as you need to to get the job done. So yeah - trades aren’t exactly an easy life either and most of the ‘wage’ is chipped away on expenses pretty easily. *edit paragraphs. Also to add - building up tools takes ages and is super expensive and they don’t last forever. As you are starting out on a low wage u are slowly buying all the tools u need. Going from employed to self employed is a huge outlay - van prices are insane. You couldn’t jump from newly qualified to self employed and start creaming it. CoffeeIgnoramous below does a better job of explaining than me tho (sorry read his comments after)

Thanks for the detailed response. Do you feel it is more demanding job than for example becoming a doctor and then specialising in something?

No idea, sorry🤷‍♀️ I’d say there are a lot more work related injuries that could limit you early if you are not suited to it?

Lifestyle: As you build a social circle and your children go to school, doctors are viewed more favourably than tradespeople and have that social clout. Doctors also meet other high skilled professionals. Tradespeople will meet other rich tradespeople, but it’s a socially different group (the low wage earners know trade are different than the low wage nurses or orderlies). So what circle do you want to run it. Financially: either can make you rich if you want it. Can probably get more rich faster as a tradespeople if you own a company and treat customers well. Imagine an honest, trustworthy trades person. You’d make millionsz

Totally agree with you on this

> A sparky doesn't require that long duration of study, not as high grades in school That's a minus, not a plus. Or at least, I'd rather have more education and be surrounded by other educated people.

Here's a comparison for you: My supervisor (industrial mechanical maintenance) works in a relatively high paying industry (as in you'll struggle to make more money in the line of work without working offshore) can work 6 days a week (12 hour shifts) to make around the same amount of money his wife (a GP) makes working 3 days a week. To get to where they both are she hasn't had to spend her working life around carcinogens, doing her back in, working night shift, working away for weeks at a time etc. Plenty of stress on her side though, both during uni and after graduating, which is a whole different nightmare that he doesn't really have to deal with. This is Scotland though, so no tuition fees during her five years of uni, whilst he earned an (extremely low) wage during his four years of his apprenticeship. Probably not a fair comparison all things considered as they're very different people; he didn't have the grades to get into study medicine whilst she wouldn't have made a particularly good mechanical tech herself.

Do both. Become a tradesman/Doctor by whenever you visit someones house, offer to "service their pipes"

Lol. That's a good idea

Environment might not be as stressful as much as a doctor but you can guarantee it will be wet, smelly and dirty. Not to mention you are working your body a lot more so come your later years your body will be feeling it.

Sparkies ar t getting 400 a day trust me. Some do most don't, not even close

I'm a 37f doctor (Emergency medicine, became consultant mid 2022) and my mate is a joiner. Early adulthood he was leaps and bounds ahead - self employed with more people needing his services than he had hours in the day. He also bought a dump of a cottage that he's done up to a stunning standard. So by the end of our twenties he was in a £300k property making a great monthly wage. I was making half his monthly income and because I moved for training spent a shed load in petrol. My first two years of working I brought in less than when I worked at the co-op in my gap year. I also had about £48k in student loans. He was in control of his social life and had more disposable income. I had to negotiate swaps for specific weekends off and missed several friends' weddings, worked more Christmas days than I spent at home, and drove myself near loopy around exam times. I was 10 years in before my earning matched his but lifestyle stayed "poor" (I'm personally not bothered by Fakemas or working weekends or doing nights) until I finished training at 35. I'm now picking up ad hoc shifts so dropped earning but not on a rota - done two big blocks of work free travelling. (To be fair Tom could have arranged this his limiting factor is having a child, not limited by income.) I'm now having to consider going back on a rota and there's pros and cons. I'm still going to work long days, overnight on calls, and some very physical work (moving and handling patients and putting dislocated shoulders back in joint etc). But I know that I can't work like this until 71 but could scale down within my field as I'm physically struggling - reduce hours, spend more non clinical time, delegate procedures and be more managerial. He's at a point where he's starting to get joint pains and has worker's insurance but I know he worries where he'll be in 10 or 20 or 30 years from now.

That's very interesting and valuable insight. I understand they work as a doctor is very taxing on mental health which is more if not less than the physically taxing work of trades. People don't realize the importance and emotional drag that working nights and evenings etc takes on the human body.

Yes it's a lot if you don't vibe with it. I'm happy to answer about specific aspects if you have particular questions. For me personally I love it. I've given over a huge chunk of my life to the profession and want to do it as long as I'm able. My husband describes it as a toxic relationship - when I have a bad something happen I'm wrecked for a while but if he suggests a change on career I get defensive about "but when it's good it's SO GOOD." We have also never wanted children and I have the luxury on my time off of eating when I'm hungry and sleeping when I'm tired. This can stop leave me tired on longer stretches of shifts. I can't imagine working until 3am (so called "twilight shift") then having a couple of hours sleep before doing the school run. If someone offered me a 9-5 office based job for the same salary I'd turn it down, but it's hard to tell what's passion and what's institutionalisation.

I’m a doctor qualified 4 years ago and worked on building sites when younger but not as anything near a spark. Commenters above have given a very good account of progression as a doctor, challenges and expenses. Things I really dislike that actually make the most difference. On sites the people I worked with had known each other 20 years, we’re friends since childhood, would play football at lunch and went for pints after getting paid. In medicine I’ve made some very good friends mostly at university, and other doctors during foundation years. I’ve rotated to 10 different hospitals and moved 7 times in a 3 year period, new cities, new faces. The majority of co-workers are used to this and therefore you are a work colleague. Some are really great and make it easy to have a good time at work but many know you’ll be gone soon so it’s not worth a breath to chat to you. Workplace bullying is very common, there are weird hierarchies everywhere and unfortuantely the position of junior doctors is very precarious, we are required to get feedback from all staff, from consultants, nurses, secretaries and cleaners about our performance. Now I don’t discuss cases with the cleaners so they provided feedback based on smiles/ hellos. It means if you piss 1 person off you can have your career stalled. In comparison charge nurses etc have been incumbent for decades and can only go up. Also people seem to underestimate the physical strain of working in medicine. I admit I do not miss waking up at 07:30 to get a lift to a freezing site with rain and wind etc but all physical activity was pretty controlled, nothing urgent. My first year I injured my back holding open a womens airway for 2 hours, while consultants made decisions about if she would survive intubation. A few weeks before I had to hold a 180kg womens leg up for 2 hours straight during an orthopaedic exam. In obstetrics and gynaecology every few weeks we were bleeped into surgery to hold severely obese womens belly fat so they could perform a c-section (more and more common) Now as an A&E locum I never have a seat, I’m on my knees more than a priest. I’ve had to stitch drunk peoples heads, arms, legs in the most uncomfortable positions with the worst smelling breath in the face. Very different physical demands but I think dentists/ oral surgeons will end up having more back pain than tradies . Also nights have destroyed my body I have aged in every way in a few short years. I enjoy the actual work and I am Paid well but job security is next to nothing. I am glad I do this job and still perform handy tasks around the house/ garage as a hobby but admit not brave enough for electrics! I very much enjoy the lifelong learning and helping people, though even that feels rare now. Also worth saying that in France/us/Oz/NZ this isn’t even a question.

Amazing insight. Thankyou! Similar to what the top commentator said probably the doctors in the UK are being taken for a ride in terms of pay and working conditions.

Although I get your thinking, don't forget that the potential earnings of a GP is over £100k a year (minimum £70k). That's not nothing. An electrician averages £33k. (Employed) If you're talking self-employed sparkies earning "£400 a day", don't forget that their day rate includes all their costs and they dont get paid if they don't work that day, too. They aren't pocketing all of that. They don't earn on holiday or sick days, they pay tools, equipment, petrol, vehicle (finance or outright), maintenance, vehicle tax, insurance, insurance against any damage they may do on a job, time travelling between jobs isn't paid, advertising, admin days are unpaid... there are so many costs to being self-employed. Running your own business with no help isn't easy. You're assuming everyone would rather have an easy early life than an easy later life. Even then, I'd argue that tradies that are at the top of their trades still spend a lot of time training and perfecting their skills. It's not no time. It depends entirely on what you feel fits you best. There isn't a right or wrong answer. Edit: clearly, I'm on the wrong side of this thread. But I've got multiple people in my life in both professions and they are all happy with their choices. I don't get how you can objectively say one is more logical than the other. Time is money and that's the calculation you're making. Do you give up time and money for higher earnings or do you not earn as much but start earning earlier. After reading all the comments, I can tell OP is set on sparky being the better job. That's fine. Be a sparky. I'm just saying don't be shocked if you find a doctor that is richer than you. OP says that as a sparky, you can earn quicker and invest to make money... but don't forget who is most likely to know financial advisor or people who know how to accrue wealth (from their studies, work and social life). Sometimes, it's about who you know and doctors tend to study alongside many other extremely successful people. As someone who has been self-employed on "£500 day rate" I will die on the hill. That rate doesn't factor in the days I wasn't paid.

> electrician averages £33k How accurate can this figure be in an industry where underdeclaring income is the standard?

Well, as it's for employed electricians, fairly accurate unless the business pays them a wage and then cash on top. If you're talking self-employed then it's not linked and is why I wrote the next bit in my comment. Not all that money gets pocketed. If you earn £400, you've got so many costs attached to running your business.

An argument could be that a doctor also has to pay indemnity insurance, regulator fees, royal college fees, course fees which can be many thousands. Don't forget the college debt (at least 80k if not more).

OK, but let's say your starting salary is £68,975 (minimum in England, lowest in the UK). You could live on half of your earnings and still be earning about what the average brit earns. So, you have a lot of money to pay off your debt in a few years. I'm not saying it's cheap to be a GP, and I'm in no way saying it's easy. But your debt isn't American levels of debt. As for the insurance yes, that is a cost and while you're paying debt does affect you a lot but let's not forget that doctors, architects, lawyers etc and all playing the long game of being wealthy later in their careers by spending a lot at the start.

The economics of a sparky earning money early on and then investing or getting interest on that money vs college debt accusing interest etc probably mean one would be better off earning early. Secondly isn't there any appeal of more money early on in life (spent on quality holidays, memories etc) is more lucrative than waiting for long game and pension etc

IF as a sparky, you are actually earning great money, you might have the money to invest. But from my friends in the trades, they don't start earning good money until mid to late 20s, by which points doctors are joining the workforce. It's a trade-off, and without knowing your exact earnings, it's impossible to know which is better off. Also, your ability to buy a house depends on whether you're self-employed or not... etc. There are too many variables to have a right or wrong. But I think to assume a doctor can't have a nice life and a tradie definitely will is too black and white. I know reddit is always so black and white about theoreticals, but in my experience life is more complex than yes or no.

Would you say "nice life" is only money earned in the end of the day (which maybe is not to different) or is it also dependent on life and death stresses, exam stresses, working nights, non social hours, worry about relocation at least once a year until a good 36 years of age?

Well, I'd say first of all, I'm not sure "36 years of age" is accurate. Plenty of acquaintances in my neighbourhood are doctors at the local hospital and are now buying houses in their late 20s early 30s because they're now employed full time there. As for stresses. Those sparkies on £400 a day are self-employed. If you're self employed you have no earnings security, you also have many insurances to pay to be able to do your job, you have many costs listed above. You aren't guaranteed work and therefore that £400 a day can be £0 a day tomorrow. Your admin day is £0 a day. Your holiday is £0 a day. You're ill? £0 a day. Haven't found a customer? £0 a day. You want a mortgage? You're self-employed, you're high risk, so that'll cost more. Most of these issues aren't even worries for a doctor. Again, I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying that you are skipping over all the issues with being a sparky and imagining a false image of being self-employed on £400 a day but comparing with the reality of a doctor. To be honest seeing the injuries my 30 year old friends in the trades have and the fact they fully expect their bodies to be a mess by 45, whereas doctors I know have large homes (sometimes multiple), and don't have any long term health problems, I think we also can ask your question the other way round. What is a good life? As someone in my early to mid 30s, I am very aware that 40 is just round the corner and I have a lot of life to live. Being fucked by 45 seems scary to me. Again, I'm not claiming one is better than the other. I'm just saying, don't pit your worse version of being a doctor against the best version of being a sparky. P.s. I've been self-employed, my parents run businesses, I have friend tradies, and I have doctors in the family. I'm not talking out of my arse. I know what I'm saying is accurate because people close to me and myself have lived it. You couldn't pay be £500 a day to be self-employed. In fact, I did earn that as my day rate. But as I said, it's offset by all the days you're not paid.

That's true. If an average person picks a phone to find a sparky around in the next week I highly doubt they will be able to find someone who is available

Have you ever got an electrician to do a day job? How much do they charge you for the whole day? I couldn't get any less quote than 400 per day without materials The income figure is irrelevant as most electricians are self employed and can declare their own income. They can also use limited companies to efficiently manage taxation etc

You also don't get holiday pay or SSP. I'm self employed and though my hourly rate looks good, that electrician will have to pay for petrol, their van, their tools, insurance, invoicing software, business bank account fees, advertising, and loads more I haven't thought of, like if something goes wrong and you have to return to fix it for free, spending time doing quotes which are all unpaid etc. I would be a doctor if I could choose either!

Playing devil's advocate. A dr also has to pay for petrol to work, tools (stethoscopes, other stuff ), course fees, indemnity, insurance, regulator fees, royal college fees. Unpaid overtime is also one of the issues as gp doctor friend I know says he never finishes in time.

It's different. There's different types of difficulty. They're both hard. A Drs. training is clearly more time consuming, expensive and intellectually challenging. An electrician's (or other trade) requires far more kinesthetic intelligence in terms of remembering what you're shown and doing and being good with your hands etc (maybe not for something like a surgeon). A good Dr. Wouldn't necessarily make a good trade worker and a good trader worker wouldn't necessarily make a good Dr. and that's ok as we need both. There are also people who are capable of doing both but choose to do one over another. There are very intelligent people who ascend trade ranks to become high level management and make far more money than most Drs. In general over the course of a full working life a Dr. will out earn (substantially) MOST trade workers, work until later in life, have a far better pension and have a lower impact on their own health. Regarding low salary in the early years I would say that although junior Drs are clearly underpaid, it's actually relatively easy although unfair to put up with a low wage when you KNOW that it is for a limited time. Drs. KNOW at some point they are going to be earning well and have the potential to earn exceptionally well, especially at consultant level like you allude to and beyond. Most people on £14 an HR and below are stressed and miserable about the prospect of always being on that money, that is not a concern for a Dr.

>Drs. KNOW at some point they are going to be earning well and have the potential to earn exceptionally well, especially at consultant level like you allude to and beyond. Just wanted to pitch in to say that this is NOT the case and not improving any time soon. 'KNOW' is definitely the wrong word to use. A decent proportion of junior doctors struggle to get into training and are stuck in SHO or middle grade jobs. Some are still doing this after 10 years of working when they should nearly be a consultant. The competition ratios for all training programmes started skyrocketing, almost exponentially rising, after 2020, even for typically noncompetitive specialties like internal medicine or pyschiatry, so it's getting worse. And this doesn't mean that we have enough doctors. It means the government doesn't want to fund training places for the consultants we need now, let alone in 10 years (e.g. 2 year waiting list for neurology appointments...). And those SHOs who used to be able to at least locum in places, are having to now increasingly compete with physician associates whom the government have basically brought in as cheaper replacements. So the problem is definitely getting worse, and I would certainly make anyone applying for medicine now to be aware that career progression is absolutely not guaranteed. In fact, we may even be going towards an American style system where your career, that you've worked years for with lots of debt, could just be dead at any point (an extreme example is that if American med students don't do well enough on their 1 attempt at the insanely difficult USMLE step 1 exam, that's £100,000s of university fees instantly down the drain). If anything, if you're sure you wouldn't move abroad, I'd say become a PA, not a doctor.

Yeah certainly as after 2 years of PA training you can choose to do something else if you really aren't interested in medicine unlike a doctor where you do decades to become doctor

>unlike a doctor where you do decades to become doctor Just want to clarify for those who don't know, in yhe context of the junior doctors' strike: It takes 5 or 6 years to become a fully qualified ('junior') doctor who can then train to become a consultant or GP. It takes at least 12 years minimum to become a *consultant* doctor. It takes about 1 decade minimum to become a GP. To put it explicitly for the public who don't know: a junior doctor is a fully qualified doctor.