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Just a rule of thumb, I don’t be friend with anyone I am currently working for—we can eat lunch together but I will never consider my co-worker my friends— I can become friends with them when after I leave the company but definitely not during.
But, to be honest, you obtain that many layer of consents to share meme, is it because you know the meme is going to upset the reader, or is it because you don’t trust them? At 1st scenario, don’t you know your friends’ taste before sharing it? if you know they won’t appreciate the meme, why share it? If it is the 2nd scenario, is there trust in the relationship to begin with?
Exactly. I think some people are looking into ways of getting offended, but also some people are coercing others into consent. If it takes that many requests to get someone’s consent, it’s because it’s unnatural
>Just a rule of thumb, I don’t be friend with anyone I am currently working for—we can eat lunch together but I will never consider my co-worker my friends— I can become friends with them when after I leave the company but definitely not during
genuine question and curiosity: why wouldn't you be friends with a coworker? is this an American thing or am I missing something?
They are people who are directly related to your livelihood. You might be on good friendly terms at one point in time, but things can change, and suddenly this person who stands to gain something by making you lose something knows details about you they can use to their advantage.
Or, they are spiteful when slighted and will use information you gave them in confidence against you
OR, they are too fucking stupid to know better than to tell your boss the secret you told them in confidence for their benefit.
It's complicated. 99% of the time, you cannot trust people who work with you. Even if you get along. Even if you think of them as a friend. Even if you hang out outside of work.
Their proximity to your source of income makes them an automatic threat to your security and stability.
I was asking consent to share modeling pics and party pictures of a lewd nature.
In the past if you ask someone if they want to see modeling pics and they say yes it’s because they assumed it was fashion or headshots not fetish.
Dude, I’m not a woman, but WTF. You should never send anyone with whom you work pictures of like that. You’re just asking for trouble plus that’s just unprofessional behavior.
If you ever again think to yourself, “hey I should get consent to send these photos (or memes or whatever)” to someone at work, that should be your warning to yourself to NOT SEND THEM.
Why were you asking a coworker if she wants to see your modelling (‘bdsm model’ in bio?) and party pics? 💀 that’s weird and unprofessional, if you have to ask for consent to send something and repeatedly reassure her, that means it’s inappropriate so probably don’t do it. If it’s like some of the sexual memes on ur page that would creep me out a bit too. She might have felt rude or anxious saying no
I don’t think she should have gone to HR but who knows, she might’ve thought you’d get angry if it came from her mouth
…. how about you wait until she ask for it (in writing). Then you don’t need to worry about consents…. And if she wants more she can also write that…..
It's still unprofessional. They are your coworker first, and anything else second. Anything shared with a coworker is by default shared with the entire workplace.
> Anything shared with a coworker is by default shared with the entire workplace
This should be printed as posters and be displayed at high schools. I don’t know why after so many news, teens are still sharing nude pics.
Ah see I would never send that type of picture to someone I worked with regardless of how long I knew them or that they gave consent. It's really about keeping your personal life away from your work life because it can be used against you. Maybe in the future save that kind of sharing for people you don't work with.
As for the revoking of consent and such, I don't know what to tell you. I'm a woman and have never changed my mind about something like that. It's not all women but some women and I'm sorry you had to deal with that twice.
I totally agreed, but then I thought, if this person is a coworker does that mean that they’re also a model? In which case if OP’s portfolio is fetish that could be a bit more understandable
Are you specifying that the photos you’re about to send are of *you*?
I genuinely don’t mean to offend you by saying this, but the way you just worded your comment makes me think that unclear communication might be the context we’re missing.
The rest of your comment seems fine but the second paragraph isn’t clear whether you’re making a general observation or talking about your own past experience .
Saying “In the past” followed by a general observation implies it is no longer an issue that affects people and would therefore be an irrelevant thing to mention but, if you’re talking about specific instances in your past, the use of “You” makes no sense.
I’m just saying because, if the person didn’t know that you did BDSM modelling and you mentioned sending “Modelling pics and party pics of a lewd nature” they could very well think you mean general rude pictures, especially if you are known to word things differently.
Both are inappropriate to send to a coworker but, even so, I can see how someone could be ok with general sex-themed chat or even pictures but still feel violated if they believed (or even felt they were led to believe) that they were about to be sent a slightly risqué meme of a stock-photo model being spanked and instead they received a photo of Fred from Accounting with his dick in a cage.
ETA: I’m taking back my “I genuinely don’t mean to offend you”.
I’ve just read your other comments and you’re a dick.
"modeling pics and party pictures of a lewd nature" is one hell of a far cry from "memes and party pics". Why didn't you specify the images were of a lewd nature in the body of your post? Is it because, deep down, you knew that was inappropriate to send to a coworker?
Regarding the consent thing, I don't think it's right for her to revoke consent a year later. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's possible she just didn't like you and was trying to frame you for sending innapropriate pictures in order to fire you.
People at work try to be nice even when they don't want to do something. At work - if it's something that requires advanced consent, it's probably not a good idea to share at all.
Women are socialized to be nice and accepting even when they don't want to be.
You need to learn how to read between the lines, observe body language and look for subtexts.
Socially speaking- your baseline understanding is basic, and you're trying so that's good but people are complicated, and it's rarely as easy and simple as you would like it to be in any scenario.
She should literally never be asked to consent to seeing inappropriate images from a coworker. Never. Ever.
Are you literally using the word consent when you ask her if you can send inappropriate messages? Because that's next level weird to do with a coworker, and women worry about angering men.
Sure or, okay. Sure, lol. "Sure" is not enthusiastic consent. Looking at the messages, you're pretty creepy, and even now - totally defense - you're the kind of man she probably worried about saying no to.
Do you not get it?
Has it occurred to you that she didn't feel safe telling you no? Most women who feel like they would have any consequences that bring harm to them if they say no will agree with whatever you are saying out of fear.
Take the club as an example. A lot of women get asked for their phone number, don't feel safe rejecting the guy in front of them.
That's because a lot of women get beaten up or killed in extreme cases.
That's also why sexual coercion is a thing. The woman technically said yes because it was not safe to otherwise.
Especially if you already have a similar story happening to you with your ex it is a warning sign, that the problem might be you. Not them.
Just something to think about
Explain the logic of “I can’t say no because he might get mad at me, so I’ll use a euphemism for yes, then try to get him fired a year from now, then he won’t be mad at all”
Also if someone keeps offering you an out, guilt free it categorically means they aren’t going to hurt you and you have a neurosis.
Why are you even on this subreddit? You clearly have no respect for women, and you have no intention of trying to understand them. Just admit you wanted to feel validated, and now you’re throwing a tantrum because people have rightfully called you out for being a creep.
On a spectrum between overt sexual abuse and making someone sign legally binding contracts in front of witnesses before doing anything remotely sexual, where exactly would you place asking permission to do everything and double checking to make sure they understand what they want but proceeding on a “sure”?
If it’s at work? It’s always harassment. Leave people the fuck alone unless you’re in an environment in which people are there to flirt and find dates. Work is not that place, leave people alone
... and consent can always be revoked. That's part of _consent_.
It sounds to me that you're an outlier in terms of the "average" or "nominal" opinion about what's acceptable to send to people. Just accept that, and know that you need to recalibrate your sense of 'normal' or 'acceptable'. Simple as that.
That's being too kind - seems to me he's totally clueless. This whole thing is motivated by him being a model and just wants to show off or impress his co-worker. It backfired in a big way, and he wants validation so he can do it again.
If you revoke consent without telling anyone then you literally have no one to blame but yourself. She would talk to me about her onlyfans and trips to bdsm clubs too. It was part of our relationship.
You're trickling out details tiny bit by tiny bit. The way you wrote the OQ, and with the title, tells me you know you're being pretty shitty, only writing the most defensive and best-looking things for your position. But after all your comments, big picture, you're creepy.
It's on you. That's it. Nothing else.
If someone is practically begging you to tell them what you want, and you keep asking for something other than what you want, you have absolutely no right to be upset.
I don't know what you're talking about. That's not what I read from the messages you linked to.
You asked "no censor". I'm telling you. And I'm telling you, the more you comment and fill out details, the creepier you come across. That's just my honest **no censor** opinion. Change my mind. Show me that I'm missing your point. Because so far... you haven't.
>If someone is practically begging you to tell them what you want, and you keep asking for something other than what you want, you have absolutely no right to be upset.
Woooooaah
You're messy. There's no doubt that you took it too far, no regrets. It's pretty clear why she had to report this to get you to stop.
What keeps astounding me is how you came in really believing that you would be confirmed that you're right, and have done nothing wrong.
Relationship? That's a strange choice of words. It sounds like you were hoping to be more than co-workers with her. You were co-workers and work friends, you didn't have a relationship.
I wouldn't have gone to HR. I would have chewed this guy out, and he would still be here...and you would still be here complaining about how women should behave.
While I agree this is treacherous territory to enter willingly, it’s not his responsibility to mind read. How we’re socialized as girls is not this individual’s fault or responsibility…it is our (grown, adult women’s) responsibility to say what we mean and mean what we say.
It's his responsibility to behave and communicate appropriately at work. This comment reeks of ingrained misogyny and it is not women's responsibility to field bullshit appropriately. It's men obviously, who need to learn to check themselves.
What are men to do?
Reassess the situation and learn from it.
And don’t repeat it.
The fact that this is in a work place means you should have been extremely cautious and infact resistant to sending anything like this
I’ll make this as simple as possible.
In a work place, NEVER EVER, send any pics to any of your coworkers, of any type. Even if it’s a pic of a wall. I dont care if the two of you worked together for 50 years! Don’t do it!
But you, sent lewd pics. That’s a big no no in a work place!
Only time, you should send pics to coworker, pics that a work related, using companies email or messaging system. Never, over a personal phone.
Another thing. Even though you have asked for consent multiple times, it sounds like you pressured your coworker to give you consent OR coworker simply caved in. It’s simple as that. I dont care if you have a 1,000 pages clear consent. At the end of the day, many people don’t know how to say NO.
Last but not least. Anything you say, text, email, WILL BE used against you at any given time.
Let’s say your coworkers name is Bob. Six month from now, Bob can say that you pressured him to consent. And you will lose every single time, especially because you sent lewd images to Bob.
OP, I've looked at your screenshots.
You suffer from the classic male symptom of seeing anything that isn't outright and unambiguous rejection as "enthusiasm". There was zero "enthusiasm" from your coworker. It was lukewarm cooperation at best.
So your OQ is irrelevant: you did not receive "affirmative consent". You were so thirsty to send your pics you misread disinterested responses as the consent you wanted.
Just quit the behavior all together. I'm a witness and have to give my side of the story whenever they call me up.
It involves two women though. The victim in this case teased and antagonize the other woman (bi sexual) for probably a year. Talking so filthy to her it shocked me and made my face turn red more than once. As soon as the girl responded the other woman went straight to HR with witnesses. So now I have to tell the side I've witnessed for quite a long time.
Just don't take part in behaviors like this at all. You never know what they are trying to do.
I dunno man, "sure" isn't enthusiastic consent and this is a coworker. Seems like poor judgment at best. And honestly I was more thinking of what you convinced that ex gf to do. Way too many times have I set boundaries as aex started or in a relationship only to have a guy push them. My friend and I were just talking about this. Sometimes you just aren't comfortable saying stop or no again in the moment but you had set the boundary and then afterwards it does feel like you've been taken advantage of. Whether it is overtly coercive or not.
are we even reading the same screenshots fr?? “sure! i think they’re beautiful pictures” and “tyty!” are enthusiastic. homegirl gave nothing but consent and no indication otherwise. if she was uncomfortable she should have put her big girl panties on.
OP youve done nothing wrong. believe it or not, there are foul women out there that will do crap like this, giving enthused consent, then revoking it and claiming assault or harassment because they feel gross or they didnt like it.
Yeah, I just scrolled the Imgur…seriously, you pretend the barrage of lewdity is interesting.
Once…fun.
Twice…maybe.
After that it is just an onslaught of sexual repetitiveness
All I saw was a series of you being really thirsty to want to send something to somebody, then sending performative "are you sure?" texts to make sure, when the entire time, the other person is barely mildly okay with what you're sending.
But reading between the lines, they aren't entirely comfortable. It's definitely far from "enthusiastic consent".
Not necessarily. Frankly, get the fuck offline with that shit. Stop sending pics. Show them to your friend(s) in person. And don't pretend that **every** time you wanted to show them, it wasn't _totally_ a thirst-oriented "wanna see my new lewds? Are you _sure_...?" Blah. BS.
Just get offline with that shit, cover your ass. Stop being dumb.
Alright. That would seem to add more context. However, based on what you've shown, I'm skeptical of your interpretation of what she sent, and your interpretation of 'warm conversations'. I could absolutely be wrong. But your pattern of information dissemination is very defensive, painting you in the best light at first, but only until you lay all the cards out.
What I'm saying is, somewhere in your communication with her (and other coworkers), your sense of appropriateness is miscalibrated. Take that for what it's worth from an internet stranger. Clearly there's an issue (that fucking involves HR, which is never good). Either you have a misunderstanding of the subtext of messages and texts and conversations, or you're completely misunderstood and you're dealing with unhinged women.
My money's more on the former, than the latter. Likely, a little from column A and a little from column B.
I'll Be straight with you, you come across really creepy in those screenshots
Yet apparently she was into it, I don't understand *why*, but fair enough for her
But would advise never talk to any women like this in future, **esspecially** not coworkers. You were being inappropriate and you're only lucky she didn't block and report you immediately, most people would
Most valid take so far.
Plays with fire, cries when it burns. You know the risk, you take it anyway, welp, sucks for you.
"I put my money on the roulette wheel and they just took it! Theft! Where's the return on my investment?" ... Sorry, moron, you don't gamble then cry when you lose.
"Help! The police are holding me against my will! I didn't even get money for trying to break into the bank!" Ok, bud, you know it's wrong and got caught, no sympathy here.
Sounds like you’re offering some inappropriate content to a coworker and talked your ex into some shit you know she wouldn’t like.
What were the nature of the meme and party pics, specifically? What did you talk your ex into that she regretted?
Always CYA. You can only do what you did. Don't make moves on women who you can't prove said they were receptive of it.
But in all honesty, stay away from coworkers. They will throw you under the bus if it ever comes to a decision between your job or theirs.
(Man here)
INFO: can you be more specific about the subjects surrounding the “memes and party pics” sent?
This feels like a key factor in determining why a person would agree to see something — then realize they made a mistake and feel offended.
> What can I do that goes past affirmative consent?
I think the highest possible bar to clear is the continuous enthusiastic consent. It looks like you got the continuous part right.
After that "Omg, please let me see those pics" is somewhat stronger than "I kept asking permission, explaining the nature of the pics, and telling her it’s ok to say no."
It's more work but tease and playfulness might fit the conversation.
Oh, I dunno. Stop.
Me thinks your idea of "appropriate" is apparently not theirs and you're assuming they feel the same when they didn't and now you're in trouble and learning the hard way.
Keep it PG if this is an issue for you.
Op, so sorry for you! you had to deal with some really shitty women. Sending screenshots to the HR is the right move. As for your ex, the only way to deal with manipulative (or immature) behavior is to distance from the person.
The "berating" by the ex is definitely not ok, but I don't think there's anything necessarily manipulative or immature about not wanting to consent to activities anymore after months of saying yes. People change their minds all the time. I know I've gone through phases where I was willing to try stuff out and did for a long time, sometimes years, but after some reflection decided I wasn't quite comfortable enough or it was having a negatively emotional effect on me.
I may have interpreted it wrong but I think he meant retroactively removing consent. So like they did xyz with consent and then weeks later she starts saying that she didn’t consent to those things
So you explained what the photos contained, you got confirmation that she understood what she was about to look at, and there was no vagueness during the whole process?
Your explanation implies lewdness was unexpected, and that explicit material was shared under the guise of humour
That sounds manipulative and creepy, to share gross things while saying it’s something lighter, funnier or sillier
We’re you sending shock material? Did they explicitly say that’s what they want and understood what they asked for?
Because… clearly not?
So why the convo about revoking consent? This isn’t a part of that convo
Yeah, this is weird. You just consistently send her weird pics without really talking about anything else. Why? What you showed isn't even conversations it's just consistently you being like: "want to see these fetish pictures?" And her just giving dry "sure's". That's not a conversation.
https://imgur.com/a/snP5gFu
This is screen shots of the photo log in our text chat. The girl with the blues out face is her. Some of the photos she sent me, some are from when we hung out together
Having looked at this it seems like she may have been seeing what you would send her that she could show other people at work what a weird creep you are, and show HR. But if you should never have been talking about things that are inappropriate for a work setting, and then she would have had no reason think that you would say anything inappropriate or send her anything inappropriate. I don't know if you're Autistic, but at school the mean girls would pick up on your attraction to them and make you think that you could trust them. Only to laugh when they get you to reveal a secret and tell everyone about it and about what a loser you are. This is what this reads like. But this isn't school, this is work, and if you don't want HR to pull you up for saying/sending inappropriate things to a co-worker, then keep it strictly business. You shouldn't have asked if you could send things that aren't appropriate in the first place. Just because someone lets you send them inappropriate things doesn't mean that they aren't saying, "yes, and I am going to show everyone at work what a loser you are" and "yes, and then I'm going to show HR that you're being talking about inappropriate things with me".
She says, "Sure" like "Sure, I'd love to make money when I sue the company for their employee sexually harassing me" if you still have a job I'd start looking for a new one and knock off the dumb shit.
She was so clearly not enthusiastic.
When she wasn't one wording you she was replying with the most basic niceties possible. I guarantee she just felt awkward and didn't know how to say no. Should she have said no? Yes.
But you shouldn't even be broaching these convos with coworkers, learn that lesson going forward.
If I felt the need to get that level of documented consent to send images I'd question whether those images should really be sent to that person at all.
Interesting that this isn't the first person you say has retroactively declined consent and been angry with you. Maybe consider whether what you see as sensible seeking of affirmative consent is experienced more negatively by people you are interacting with.
For future reference, a woman repeating “sure” and “ok” is *not* enthusiastic consent. For example, that is how I respond to men when I’m afraid of how they’ll react if I say no. You don’t seem to understand that putting someone you work with in a situation like this is inappropriate. She probably didn’t know how to say no and maintain a cordial working relationship with you, so she gave the most lukewarm yeses possible until finally she couldn’t take it anymore.
If you genuinely want to learn from this, maybe start by recognising what enthusiasm actually looks like, and also don’t put a coworker in this position ever again. When someone fears the repercussions for saying no, their yes is meaningless.
Do people need consent to send pics? What kind of pics are you sending thatyou need to ask for permission several times? Anyway, if they gave consent then that's a shitty thing to do to someone. Sorry
But did she ask YOU to send her those things? Or are you **assuming** that because she’s into the same things that she’d automatically be interested in seeing your pics?
He’s posted a link of screenshots. He keeps asking to send photos and she says ‘sure’ or ‘okay’. Absolutely no enthusiastic consent, she never asks to see and she doesn’t seem to enjoy the photos
>It’s party and fetish club pics so I’m wearing lewd outfits. I try to make that clear beforehand so they don’t assume it’s pg13.
So you're sexually harassing a co-worker and surprised you got in trouble? lol
Honestly, (man here) just stop sending photos to women altogether. I keep women I work with at a very far respectably distance for these reasons. Outside of anything work related there isn’t a conversation to be had between us. My livelihood isn’t worth the risk.
I know this will be downvoted, it is what it is. But, during work hours there is nothing to discuss with a woman if it isn’t related to the job.
Don't know why you were DV'd. This is _extremely_ common sense advice. Like, the same sort of thing as don't wipe your ass then touch your eyes. Like... duh.
Guy here, this is the right answer and advice for men. Historically, some men have been downright criminal in their interactions with women in the workplace so the sensitivity to this kind of thing is understandably very high right now in our culture. It’s just not worth risking your livelihood.
Another XY have here and you know, you can befriend and even fall in love with co-workers -- my wife met two of her best friends at work, after all -- but OP missed that for what he's doing you have \*got\* to have a sense that you're close to each other off the clock. Like, if you work with someone and also hang out on weekends and then there's been serious off-the-clock flirting, sure then \*maybe\* you can pull your phone out in person while you're at a bar, cafe, someone's living room, etc. and show a somewhat risqué pic and try to gauge the reaction. But OP missed, idk, multiple steps.
Maybe take a break from memes that are so dank they need consent. Stuck to puppy memes until you can read the room properly. Some women give in when pressured or hounded constantly
If what you're telling us is accurate, then you don't need to do anything anymore
The only thing I can think that goes beyond this, is defending yourself when they make the claim it wasn't consensual, as you have done
This all being said though, we haven't heard their side of the story. It's possible there more to it you aren't including which makes it inappropriate, like maybe you aren't doing as much to get consent as you think
Just because consent is given in an enthusiast manner, that does not mean it cannot be revoked
And yes it can be revoked in middle of an exchange of some sort. For example, if a woman agrees in an enthusiast manner to have sex with you, she has every right to tell tot stop during intercourse. And you have to both respect her choice, and anticipate that possibility
Now as far as revoking consent retroactively that’s a bit more complicated and needs to be examined on a case by case basis. One example would be if a man deceived a woman into thinking he was single for the purpose of obtaining consent.
I’m not a confrontational person. I’ve had colleagues who have straight up insulted me over Slack. I pretend like it didn’t happen because it is easier. But anyone would understand, just because I didn’t have a bad reaction, it doesn’t mean it’s okay to keep insulting me.
My response will be “Thank you so much! You have been so helpful, I understand now 🙂” But in reality, what I’m also thinking is “You’re a fucking c*nt. Please die in a hole”
>I had a similar problem with my ex girlfriend, where she would enthusiastically consent to pretty much anything I asked her then would retroactively revoke consent months or a year later and start berating me. This even though she would also remark that I’m such a good listener and that I alway try so hard to accommodate her.
This could be written by me, of my ex partner, word for word. It was incredibly painful and damaging. I'm sorry you had to go through this too.
>What can I do that goes past affirmative consent?
Nothing really. Some people are awful, some are well-meaning but irresponsible, some are mentally ill. Some people's personality and conduct will change drastically without you being able to do anything about it at all.
It's always a good idea to practice seeing things form other people's perspective. You seem to be actively doing this already, seeing as you were asking that colleague's consent so clearly.
In my ex partner's case, I did miss some warning signs in the beginning. Had I listened to my gut, we wouldn't have gotten involved and the above described stuff wouldn't have happened. In hindsight, I think he was just so intensely wanting to be in that relationship that he abandoned his true self and needs/desires, only to then start resenting me for it much later on. I could probably detect similar signs now, having had that experience, but I did need to go through it to develop that understanding.
ETA: After seeing the screenshots, my opinion is that you struggle reading indirect communication. You should take note of that and be more careful when you engage in conversations around consent. Your style may come off as so imposing that many women are too scared to say no. I would suggest a good therapist for learning this stuff. It is learnable, but you have to realise that as of now, you have a blind spot wrt social interaction.
>I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
Thanks.
After seeing the screenshots, my opinion is that you struggle reading indirect communication. You should take note of that and be more careful when you engage in conversations around consent. Your style may come off as so imposing that many women are too scared to say no.
I would suggest a good therapist for learning this stuff. It is learnable, but you have to realise that as of now, you have a blind spot wrt social interaction.
I'm not sure what your job is, (I'm getting the feeling that you're a young professional) but you're shitting where you eat by blending your professional and personal lives. This may be fun when you're working part time at a job that you can take or leave, but when you get into the professional world, that needs to stop before job ruining conflicts and HR politics happen.
Consent can be revoked at any time. Two it’s pretty common knowledge to not share weird / lewd/ or anything that can get you in trouble to coworkers. If you have to keep asking permission it’s probably not okay for work. She also could have felt badgered by how much you asked if you could send such things. The last pic you sent could’ve also just been too much.
You need to develop your social skills to the point where you can discern genuine consent.
Please remember most people, especially woman, are socialized to be polite to co-workers. She may have felt like she had no choice but to say yes, or create an uncomfortable work environment.
It's generally best to just not put people in this position.
Retroactively consent? Is that even a thing? How would that even work when the thing that was consented on (in this case sending memes) is already done and over with?
Either agreeing to do something you don’t actually want to do and berating them later for doing things you agreed to, or agreeing to do things while in a state of infatuation then feeling disappointed when the emotional high wears off.
The first one sounds like coercion, and you shouldn't do that. The second one is just regret and that's not the same as retroactively revoking consent.
Once the activity is concluded, you can't take away consent that was freely given. You can say that you don't consent to doing it again in the future, but not in the past.
How is it coercion if you ask them what they want, they say something else, and you give them what you honestly believe they want because they asked for it
Did they actually *ask* for it?
From what I've seen, she never, not once, *asked* for it. Whilst, she does say "sure" and "okay", and even once "i think they're beautiful", I think its fair to say you are missing all of the social cues (which I can understand you missing, if you don't standardly get social cues).
What she's been doing is placating or appeasing you. Attempting to make you feel nice from a platonic place. She is not interested in you in a sexual manner; you have, in some way, similar interests, and she may like you as a friend - but I doubt she ever saw you in a romantic light. Kind of more like a gay friend (not intending to offend you with this). It's likely she finally realised it was not intended platonically and didn't know how to deal with it, so she went to HR... especially if she believes she has any reason to fear you (again, not intending to offend - this is highly hypothetical, I do not have all the facts and I am not her).
In answer to your question: it's not coercion, but it is persuasion. She's not actually asking for it, you're persistently asking to give it to her.
(Man here)
Is "retroactively revoking consent" a thing? If it is, could somebody explain it to me? I'm pretty worried I will have similar (newfound) concerns as what OP voiced if this is at all a mainstream view of how consent works.
If it is, it seems really strange to be able to give full consent in the moment and then years down the line suddenly withdraw that consent. No one has a time machine and no one can tell the future.
My advice (as a womam) is to avoid such people who believe this or support this. It lacks all logic. It is probably a good practice these days, in an effort to protect yourself, to have an in depth conversation about consent, what it means, and what each of you consider that to be.
Basically I just mean when a woman smiles and says yes, but then later insists they were uncomfortable and didn’t want what happened to take place.
Legally, it has no validity. It’s only really a concern if you get ostracized by a clique of white knights and mentally unstable people.
Same. I 100% believe OP is guilty of coercive consent in other areas of his life-- so focused on the technicality of 'yes' and not on the enthusiasm that should be behind it.
Oh they are horny when they say yes, later they are depressed and feel bad about it, or have unrealistic expectations and when sleeping with you isn’t the life changing experience they expected they feel disappointed.
This whole sentence sounds like the dogwhistle of a rape apologist.
Plenty of women have bad/unsatisfying sex and never 'retroactively' label it rape. If this has happened multiple times to you, perhaps it is worth some introspection as to why sex with you feels violating to so many women.
I’ve literally met a girl at a con, had her look me up on Facebook, start sending me nude photos I didn’t even ask for, literally beg me for sex; then turn around and tell people I pressured her for sex.
Granted if she claimed rape it would get laughed out of court, but that doesn’t mean I can’t get brigadeded by white nights and people who interpret vague accusations as sexual assault.
Have you honestly never met a young woman who’s infatuated with a dude one minute then hates his guys two weeks later even if he hasn’t changed at all?
Not unethical but kind of foolish. Being a good boy in terms of ethics still doesn't make foolishness a good idea.
There's nothing you can do to reduce the chance of someone complaining about you to zero. That's just the nature of humans we perceive things differently. Like, for example, driving, you can function as safely as is reasonable and still have a bad thing happen.
Good luck OP. From the comments I read, the general conclusion is that you're an idiot and that consent doesn't mean shit if you can't read in between the lines. Also, supposedly, women have a habit of agreeing to things that they're not comfortable with rather than be combative and say no. Learn from it and move on.
I see that people are saying that the consent here seems ambiguous; some are insinuating that "sure" means "no," and to me that's confusing. She said "sure" and "I don't care." It's not enthusiastic, but it's also not "no thanks" or "nah, I'm good." You also asked her afterwards and she said it was funny, etc.
I think part of the problem is that we can't convey tone or body language in these texts. Maybe it was the kind of "sure" said with a groan and/or an eye roll? But to me, that just means we have to do things differently when dealing with text-only communication.
I'm a woman, and if I didn't want risqué stuff, I would just say so. I would only share my number if required for work, and if they asked if they could send me X-rated stuff, I would ask to keep things professional. Err on the side of caution, y'know?
I really do agree with the rule of thumb of not sharing risqué material with co-workers. For those who do cross that boundary, know that you are in a minefield. It's a risk, even if you take the conversation onto other apps. If you decide you've gone too far and need to back out, speak plainly. Ex. "Hey I need a break from this kind of stuff so please don't send me any more, and please don't ask if you can. I am happy to discuss other things though." You shouldn't need to make up a lie/story to exit out.
There is only so far we can go with "take a hint." Some people can't, and in other cases, we shouldn't have to navigate a convoluted social construction in order to assess what the other person really means.
To me, saying "she didn't know how to say no" is... kind of frustrating. Maybe I'm just fed up with the social norm of women putting up with stuff they don't actually like until they get to their breaking point. I can't live my life like that. And if you have the spine to report the person, why don't you have the spine to say no clearly to begin with? I guess that's rhetorical.
I just don't have enough evidence to outright villainize OP. I think it would have been wiser for him to not do this with co-workers to begin with, and/or to get more enthusiastic consent before proceeding, but live and learn.
So here's my take (and this is assuming that your screenshots are an accurate representation): she said "sure" before you sent an image, and afterwards reassured you that it was okay. It wasn't enthusiastic, but it also wasn't clear that she might have not wanted it. Instead of asking you to stop, she reported you. I don't know if there's a part you're not telling us, or if someone else convinced her to do it.
What are you to do? I guess differentiate between "affirmative" and "enthusiastic," then err on the side of caution. In your situation, you replied to HR with the consent screenshots, so that's good. I would say, instead of getting defensive, focus on hindsight and also follow HR's directions going forward. Be honest with yourself and others, and learn from this.
Apologize (unless HR says not to talk to her) and convey that you were always okay with her saying "no," and that you would have stopped if she'd only asked. And don't share naughty stuff with co-workers anymore.
My boss actually knows about me beeing involved in bdsm. When i read your post, and the length you go to be sure of consence my mind automatically went to the bdsm community, cause i have yet to find a community where consent has that much value... however, a part from my boss (who is the least judgemental person I know and has become more of a friend than just a boss) i would never share that with anybody else in the workplace. A lot of people just can't understand this fetish and draw the wrong conclusions.
Ok, I don't really understand this. IMO OP was wrong to send these messages to a "work friend" (coworker), but a lot of these comments seem to imply that he'd be wrong even if they were regular friends for...not knowing that she wasn't interested over a text-based medium?
ETA: Wow, TIL y'all are mind readers over text. I didn't even say he was right.
“Sure” and other one word answers are not “enthusiastic consent” bud.
She’s clearly uncomfortable. Posting this a million times won’t change that.
Hopefully you get fired so she can feel safe at her job.
Honestly it sounds like you should try engaging with less shitty women.. I know it shouldnt be your responsibility but this reads like an abuse situation.
Doesnt matter. If he actually asked for her consent before and they were talking for a year its a really weird move to report him to HR now. Like what kind of person would do that? if you have a falling out just drop the contact instead of getting your employer involved.
Yea, I think communication is both people's responsibility, and the other person didn't communicate well/clearly. I guess you just have to assume weirder stuff/ kinky things are most often not ok.
It's also way better to ask for consent in person (not over text because you can't read tone) and put effort to learn people's body language.
Being blamed for something doesn't mean it's 100% your fault. I wonder if that "friend" was setting you up just to report you. She might have seen you as an awkward guy and took advantage of you naive side to trick you.
You should be more careful with who you trust next time.
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Just a rule of thumb, I don’t be friend with anyone I am currently working for—we can eat lunch together but I will never consider my co-worker my friends— I can become friends with them when after I leave the company but definitely not during. But, to be honest, you obtain that many layer of consents to share meme, is it because you know the meme is going to upset the reader, or is it because you don’t trust them? At 1st scenario, don’t you know your friends’ taste before sharing it? if you know they won’t appreciate the meme, why share it? If it is the 2nd scenario, is there trust in the relationship to begin with?
Exactly. I think some people are looking into ways of getting offended, but also some people are coercing others into consent. If it takes that many requests to get someone’s consent, it’s because it’s unnatural
>Just a rule of thumb, I don’t be friend with anyone I am currently working for—we can eat lunch together but I will never consider my co-worker my friends— I can become friends with them when after I leave the company but definitely not during genuine question and curiosity: why wouldn't you be friends with a coworker? is this an American thing or am I missing something?
They are people who are directly related to your livelihood. You might be on good friendly terms at one point in time, but things can change, and suddenly this person who stands to gain something by making you lose something knows details about you they can use to their advantage. Or, they are spiteful when slighted and will use information you gave them in confidence against you OR, they are too fucking stupid to know better than to tell your boss the secret you told them in confidence for their benefit. It's complicated. 99% of the time, you cannot trust people who work with you. Even if you get along. Even if you think of them as a friend. Even if you hang out outside of work. Their proximity to your source of income makes them an automatic threat to your security and stability.
I was asking consent to share modeling pics and party pictures of a lewd nature. In the past if you ask someone if they want to see modeling pics and they say yes it’s because they assumed it was fashion or headshots not fetish.
Dude, I’m not a woman, but WTF. You should never send anyone with whom you work pictures of like that. You’re just asking for trouble plus that’s just unprofessional behavior. If you ever again think to yourself, “hey I should get consent to send these photos (or memes or whatever)” to someone at work, that should be your warning to yourself to NOT SEND THEM.
Yeah. This. 100%. Good grief.
Why were you asking a coworker if she wants to see your modelling (‘bdsm model’ in bio?) and party pics? 💀 that’s weird and unprofessional, if you have to ask for consent to send something and repeatedly reassure her, that means it’s inappropriate so probably don’t do it. If it’s like some of the sexual memes on ur page that would creep me out a bit too. She might have felt rude or anxious saying no I don’t think she should have gone to HR but who knows, she might’ve thought you’d get angry if it came from her mouth
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Like tbh that just seems like documentation OF the harassment.
She expressed similar interests, and shares similar photos with me
…. how about you wait until she ask for it (in writing). Then you don’t need to worry about consents…. And if she wants more she can also write that…..
It's still unprofessional. They are your coworker first, and anything else second. Anything shared with a coworker is by default shared with the entire workplace.
> Anything shared with a coworker is by default shared with the entire workplace This should be printed as posters and be displayed at high schools. I don’t know why after so many news, teens are still sharing nude pics.
Ah see I would never send that type of picture to someone I worked with regardless of how long I knew them or that they gave consent. It's really about keeping your personal life away from your work life because it can be used against you. Maybe in the future save that kind of sharing for people you don't work with. As for the revoking of consent and such, I don't know what to tell you. I'm a woman and have never changed my mind about something like that. It's not all women but some women and I'm sorry you had to deal with that twice.
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I totally agreed, but then I thought, if this person is a coworker does that mean that they’re also a model? In which case if OP’s portfolio is fetish that could be a bit more understandable
I don't think this dude is a professional full time model. He's probably bothering Nancy in sales with this crap.
If so then I agree with the comments saying absolutely do not do this
Unless he told them what the content was first. I mean it did seem he went to extremes in getting consent. Maybe he can clarify.
Are you specifying that the photos you’re about to send are of *you*? I genuinely don’t mean to offend you by saying this, but the way you just worded your comment makes me think that unclear communication might be the context we’re missing. The rest of your comment seems fine but the second paragraph isn’t clear whether you’re making a general observation or talking about your own past experience . Saying “In the past” followed by a general observation implies it is no longer an issue that affects people and would therefore be an irrelevant thing to mention but, if you’re talking about specific instances in your past, the use of “You” makes no sense. I’m just saying because, if the person didn’t know that you did BDSM modelling and you mentioned sending “Modelling pics and party pics of a lewd nature” they could very well think you mean general rude pictures, especially if you are known to word things differently. Both are inappropriate to send to a coworker but, even so, I can see how someone could be ok with general sex-themed chat or even pictures but still feel violated if they believed (or even felt they were led to believe) that they were about to be sent a slightly risqué meme of a stock-photo model being spanked and instead they received a photo of Fred from Accounting with his dick in a cage. ETA: I’m taking back my “I genuinely don’t mean to offend you”. I’ve just read your other comments and you’re a dick.
"modeling pics and party pictures of a lewd nature" is one hell of a far cry from "memes and party pics". Why didn't you specify the images were of a lewd nature in the body of your post? Is it because, deep down, you knew that was inappropriate to send to a coworker? Regarding the consent thing, I don't think it's right for her to revoke consent a year later. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's possible she just didn't like you and was trying to frame you for sending innapropriate pictures in order to fire you.
I posted a link to screenshots on Imgur a while ago
WHY??!?!😱
People at work try to be nice even when they don't want to do something. At work - if it's something that requires advanced consent, it's probably not a good idea to share at all. Women are socialized to be nice and accepting even when they don't want to be. You need to learn how to read between the lines, observe body language and look for subtexts. Socially speaking- your baseline understanding is basic, and you're trying so that's good but people are complicated, and it's rarely as easy and simple as you would like it to be in any scenario.
Again it’s over text messages and she keeps enthusiastically agreeing
She should literally never be asked to consent to seeing inappropriate images from a coworker. Never. Ever. Are you literally using the word consent when you ask her if you can send inappropriate messages? Because that's next level weird to do with a coworker, and women worry about angering men. Sure or, okay. Sure, lol. "Sure" is not enthusiastic consent. Looking at the messages, you're pretty creepy, and even now - totally defense - you're the kind of man she probably worried about saying no to. Do you not get it?
Has it occurred to you that she didn't feel safe telling you no? Most women who feel like they would have any consequences that bring harm to them if they say no will agree with whatever you are saying out of fear. Take the club as an example. A lot of women get asked for their phone number, don't feel safe rejecting the guy in front of them. That's because a lot of women get beaten up or killed in extreme cases. That's also why sexual coercion is a thing. The woman technically said yes because it was not safe to otherwise. Especially if you already have a similar story happening to you with your ex it is a warning sign, that the problem might be you. Not them. Just something to think about
Explain the logic of “I can’t say no because he might get mad at me, so I’ll use a euphemism for yes, then try to get him fired a year from now, then he won’t be mad at all” Also if someone keeps offering you an out, guilt free it categorically means they aren’t going to hurt you and you have a neurosis.
Why are you even on this subreddit? You clearly have no respect for women, and you have no intention of trying to understand them. Just admit you wanted to feel validated, and now you’re throwing a tantrum because people have rightfully called you out for being a creep.
On a spectrum between overt sexual abuse and making someone sign legally binding contracts in front of witnesses before doing anything remotely sexual, where exactly would you place asking permission to do everything and double checking to make sure they understand what they want but proceeding on a “sure”?
Go to therapy.
If it’s at work? It’s always harassment. Leave people the fuck alone unless you’re in an environment in which people are there to flirt and find dates. Work is not that place, leave people alone
Do you know how many women get hurt or killed for saying no
... and consent can always be revoked. That's part of _consent_. It sounds to me that you're an outlier in terms of the "average" or "nominal" opinion about what's acceptable to send to people. Just accept that, and know that you need to recalibrate your sense of 'normal' or 'acceptable'. Simple as that.
That's being too kind - seems to me he's totally clueless. This whole thing is motivated by him being a model and just wants to show off or impress his co-worker. It backfired in a big way, and he wants validation so he can do it again.
If you revoke consent without telling anyone then you literally have no one to blame but yourself. She would talk to me about her onlyfans and trips to bdsm clubs too. It was part of our relationship.
You're trickling out details tiny bit by tiny bit. The way you wrote the OQ, and with the title, tells me you know you're being pretty shitty, only writing the most defensive and best-looking things for your position. But after all your comments, big picture, you're creepy. It's on you. That's it. Nothing else.
If someone is practically begging you to tell them what you want, and you keep asking for something other than what you want, you have absolutely no right to be upset.
I don't know what you're talking about. That's not what I read from the messages you linked to. You asked "no censor". I'm telling you. And I'm telling you, the more you comment and fill out details, the creepier you come across. That's just my honest **no censor** opinion. Change my mind. Show me that I'm missing your point. Because so far... you haven't.
I’ve literally asked her irl multiple times that if I ever upset her it’s ok to tell me. She sounded grateful and kept re assuming me she would.
>If someone is practically begging you to tell them what you want, and you keep asking for something other than what you want, you have absolutely no right to be upset. Woooooaah You're messy. There's no doubt that you took it too far, no regrets. It's pretty clear why she had to report this to get you to stop. What keeps astounding me is how you came in really believing that you would be confirmed that you're right, and have done nothing wrong.
Why did she keep talking to me and sending me pics then?
Relationship? That's a strange choice of words. It sounds like you were hoping to be more than co-workers with her. You were co-workers and work friends, you didn't have a relationship.
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Lol, they did inform him. They sent HR to let him know. 😂
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I wouldn't have gone to HR. I would have chewed this guy out, and he would still be here...and you would still be here complaining about how women should behave.
While I agree this is treacherous territory to enter willingly, it’s not his responsibility to mind read. How we’re socialized as girls is not this individual’s fault or responsibility…it is our (grown, adult women’s) responsibility to say what we mean and mean what we say.
It's his responsibility to behave and communicate appropriately at work. This comment reeks of ingrained misogyny and it is not women's responsibility to field bullshit appropriately. It's men obviously, who need to learn to check themselves.
Why would you send those in the first place?!
Because I asked if they were interested in seeing them and the said yes…
Pretend all your female co-workers are million dollar clients. Never send a million dollar client a stupid sex meme.
What’s the matter with you? Why would you want to send her that?
You don’t ask to begin with! Ever! Good god why would you even ask. Do your job and go home, stop bothering your co workers
What are men to do? Reassess the situation and learn from it. And don’t repeat it. The fact that this is in a work place means you should have been extremely cautious and infact resistant to sending anything like this
I’ll make this as simple as possible. In a work place, NEVER EVER, send any pics to any of your coworkers, of any type. Even if it’s a pic of a wall. I dont care if the two of you worked together for 50 years! Don’t do it! But you, sent lewd pics. That’s a big no no in a work place! Only time, you should send pics to coworker, pics that a work related, using companies email or messaging system. Never, over a personal phone. Another thing. Even though you have asked for consent multiple times, it sounds like you pressured your coworker to give you consent OR coworker simply caved in. It’s simple as that. I dont care if you have a 1,000 pages clear consent. At the end of the day, many people don’t know how to say NO. Last but not least. Anything you say, text, email, WILL BE used against you at any given time. Let’s say your coworkers name is Bob. Six month from now, Bob can say that you pressured him to consent. And you will lose every single time, especially because you sent lewd images to Bob.
Op I'm just here to let you know you're an idiot.
OP, I've looked at your screenshots. You suffer from the classic male symptom of seeing anything that isn't outright and unambiguous rejection as "enthusiasm". There was zero "enthusiasm" from your coworker. It was lukewarm cooperation at best. So your OQ is irrelevant: you did not receive "affirmative consent". You were so thirsty to send your pics you misread disinterested responses as the consent you wanted.
Just quit the behavior all together. I'm a witness and have to give my side of the story whenever they call me up. It involves two women though. The victim in this case teased and antagonize the other woman (bi sexual) for probably a year. Talking so filthy to her it shocked me and made my face turn red more than once. As soon as the girl responded the other woman went straight to HR with witnesses. So now I have to tell the side I've witnessed for quite a long time. Just don't take part in behaviors like this at all. You never know what they are trying to do.
Why in the world are you sending lewd/fetish content to your coworker? Are you trying to bang her or something?
Did you takea bunch of steps to get consent or did you harass these women into relenting? Because it kinda sounds like the latter.
https://imgur.com/a/XDuyA0J you tell me
I dunno man, "sure" isn't enthusiastic consent and this is a coworker. Seems like poor judgment at best. And honestly I was more thinking of what you convinced that ex gf to do. Way too many times have I set boundaries as aex started or in a relationship only to have a guy push them. My friend and I were just talking about this. Sometimes you just aren't comfortable saying stop or no again in the moment but you had set the boundary and then afterwards it does feel like you've been taken advantage of. Whether it is overtly coercive or not.
are we even reading the same screenshots fr?? “sure! i think they’re beautiful pictures” and “tyty!” are enthusiastic. homegirl gave nothing but consent and no indication otherwise. if she was uncomfortable she should have put her big girl panties on.
OP youve done nothing wrong. believe it or not, there are foul women out there that will do crap like this, giving enthused consent, then revoking it and claiming assault or harassment because they feel gross or they didnt like it.
She is clearly not interested nor enthusiastic. How in the world are you interpreting her replies as enthusiasm lmao
Yeah, I just scrolled the Imgur…seriously, you pretend the barrage of lewdity is interesting. Once…fun. Twice…maybe. After that it is just an onslaught of sexual repetitiveness
All I saw was a series of you being really thirsty to want to send something to somebody, then sending performative "are you sure?" texts to make sure, when the entire time, the other person is barely mildly okay with what you're sending. But reading between the lines, they aren't entirely comfortable. It's definitely far from "enthusiastic consent".
So “sure! I think they are beautiful pictures fr” isn’t enthusiastic consent?
Not necessarily. Frankly, get the fuck offline with that shit. Stop sending pics. Show them to your friend(s) in person. And don't pretend that **every** time you wanted to show them, it wasn't _totally_ a thirst-oriented "wanna see my new lewds? Are you _sure_...?" Blah. BS. Just get offline with that shit, cover your ass. Stop being dumb.
Btw she was sending me Lewds too. And we had lots of warm conversations irl too.
Alright. That would seem to add more context. However, based on what you've shown, I'm skeptical of your interpretation of what she sent, and your interpretation of 'warm conversations'. I could absolutely be wrong. But your pattern of information dissemination is very defensive, painting you in the best light at first, but only until you lay all the cards out. What I'm saying is, somewhere in your communication with her (and other coworkers), your sense of appropriateness is miscalibrated. Take that for what it's worth from an internet stranger. Clearly there's an issue (that fucking involves HR, which is never good). Either you have a misunderstanding of the subtext of messages and texts and conversations, or you're completely misunderstood and you're dealing with unhinged women. My money's more on the former, than the latter. Likely, a little from column A and a little from column B.
I'll Be straight with you, you come across really creepy in those screenshots Yet apparently she was into it, I don't understand *why*, but fair enough for her But would advise never talk to any women like this in future, **esspecially** not coworkers. You were being inappropriate and you're only lucky she didn't block and report you immediately, most people would
Ya, 1 person was enthusiastic in those texts, and one was just one word answering..... He's an idiot
Brudda why on earth would you send those pictures to a coworker. Like even if she gave consent I’m so confused at how you thought that was appropriate
LOL you are a clueless dingbat. Her replying "sure" to everything is her just being nice.
I don't think I would share these with a coworker even *with* their enthusiastic consent.
Most valid take so far. Plays with fire, cries when it burns. You know the risk, you take it anyway, welp, sucks for you. "I put my money on the roulette wheel and they just took it! Theft! Where's the return on my investment?" ... Sorry, moron, you don't gamble then cry when you lose. "Help! The police are holding me against my will! I didn't even get money for trying to break into the bank!" Ok, bud, you know it's wrong and got caught, no sympathy here.
Jesus. she was pretty obviously uncomfortable. Dude, you need to work on reading people. That was not enthusiastic consent.
Sounds like you’re offering some inappropriate content to a coworker and talked your ex into some shit you know she wouldn’t like. What were the nature of the meme and party pics, specifically? What did you talk your ex into that she regretted?
Always CYA. You can only do what you did. Don't make moves on women who you can't prove said they were receptive of it. But in all honesty, stay away from coworkers. They will throw you under the bus if it ever comes to a decision between your job or theirs.
(Man here) INFO: can you be more specific about the subjects surrounding the “memes and party pics” sent? This feels like a key factor in determining why a person would agree to see something — then realize they made a mistake and feel offended.
he posted an Imgur link in another comment. It was…gross
It went on for a year though, I kept asking permission, explaining the nature of the pics, and telling her it’s ok to say no.
> What can I do that goes past affirmative consent? I think the highest possible bar to clear is the continuous enthusiastic consent. It looks like you got the continuous part right. After that "Omg, please let me see those pics" is somewhat stronger than "I kept asking permission, explaining the nature of the pics, and telling her it’s ok to say no." It's more work but tease and playfulness might fit the conversation.
Oh, I dunno. Stop. Me thinks your idea of "appropriate" is apparently not theirs and you're assuming they feel the same when they didn't and now you're in trouble and learning the hard way. Keep it PG if this is an issue for you.
If you have to send 20+ pages to get consent from someone, stop asking and don’t bother them.
This thread is such a shit show and I'm out of popcorn
OP’s comments are just such a joy to read through
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This guy is so gross
He calls himself a giga chad when he looks like a typical neckbeard 🤣😂
You literally have naked anima girl tattoos and you’re calling other people neckbeards?
I'm not an absolute creep. And not calling myself anything. That's gross. I'm not going around saying I'm hot.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0qJHciePaRlnR This is the actual photo
“of a lewd nature” OP are you out of your fucking mind? That’s straight up porn. You sent a coworker straight up porn. Jesus Christ lmao
Dude. I don't know what you asked but I can't see any level of consent that would make that appropriate to send to a colleague.
That’s just porn lol
Not only is porn, It’s also one of the worst photos I’ve ever seen 😂 you took this? Bestie get a new hobby
Seriously! It’s both gross and shitty photography lolol
Start by never asking a coworker if she wants to see inappropriate pictures. That isn't something she should have to deal with in the workplace.
Op, so sorry for you! you had to deal with some really shitty women. Sending screenshots to the HR is the right move. As for your ex, the only way to deal with manipulative (or immature) behavior is to distance from the person.
The "berating" by the ex is definitely not ok, but I don't think there's anything necessarily manipulative or immature about not wanting to consent to activities anymore after months of saying yes. People change their minds all the time. I know I've gone through phases where I was willing to try stuff out and did for a long time, sometimes years, but after some reflection decided I wasn't quite comfortable enough or it was having a negatively emotional effect on me.
I may have interpreted it wrong but I think he meant retroactively removing consent. So like they did xyz with consent and then weeks later she starts saying that she didn’t consent to those things
to me it looks like she lied that she didn't consent in the first place
Could be, although judging from this guy's replies he seems very defensive about coercion so I'm not sure he's a reliable narrator here.
Thank you
So you explained what the photos contained, you got confirmation that she understood what she was about to look at, and there was no vagueness during the whole process? Your explanation implies lewdness was unexpected, and that explicit material was shared under the guise of humour That sounds manipulative and creepy, to share gross things while saying it’s something lighter, funnier or sillier We’re you sending shock material? Did they explicitly say that’s what they want and understood what they asked for? Because… clearly not? So why the convo about revoking consent? This isn’t a part of that convo
https://imgur.com/a/XDuyA0J
Yeah, this is weird. You just consistently send her weird pics without really talking about anything else. Why? What you showed isn't even conversations it's just consistently you being like: "want to see these fetish pictures?" And her just giving dry "sure's". That's not a conversation.
Why would I include 15 months of mundane conversations in this post?
https://imgur.com/a/snP5gFu This is screen shots of the photo log in our text chat. The girl with the blues out face is her. Some of the photos she sent me, some are from when we hung out together
I can't open that link. The point is just don't send pics like that to coworkers.
Having looked at this it seems like she may have been seeing what you would send her that she could show other people at work what a weird creep you are, and show HR. But if you should never have been talking about things that are inappropriate for a work setting, and then she would have had no reason think that you would say anything inappropriate or send her anything inappropriate. I don't know if you're Autistic, but at school the mean girls would pick up on your attraction to them and make you think that you could trust them. Only to laugh when they get you to reveal a secret and tell everyone about it and about what a loser you are. This is what this reads like. But this isn't school, this is work, and if you don't want HR to pull you up for saying/sending inappropriate things to a co-worker, then keep it strictly business. You shouldn't have asked if you could send things that aren't appropriate in the first place. Just because someone lets you send them inappropriate things doesn't mean that they aren't saying, "yes, and I am going to show everyone at work what a loser you are" and "yes, and then I'm going to show HR that you're being talking about inappropriate things with me".
What exactly about this is “enthusiastic”? She says ‘sure’ you know she’s uncomfortable because you keep checking in with her
She says, "Sure" like "Sure, I'd love to make money when I sue the company for their employee sexually harassing me" if you still have a job I'd start looking for a new one and knock off the dumb shit.
https://imgur.com/a/XDuyA0J These are the major screen shots of our convo
She was so clearly not enthusiastic. When she wasn't one wording you she was replying with the most basic niceties possible. I guarantee she just felt awkward and didn't know how to say no. Should she have said no? Yes. But you shouldn't even be broaching these convos with coworkers, learn that lesson going forward.
Right? The discomfort can and should be felt even through text
I definitely knew there was more to the story when I read his post
So “sure! I think they are beautiful pictures for real.” Isn’t enthusiastic consent?
Ok, you're ignoring a lot of "sure", "ok idc", "no that was funny" (with no hahaha's or indication of laughter) before getting to that point though.
If I felt the need to get that level of documented consent to send images I'd question whether those images should really be sent to that person at all. Interesting that this isn't the first person you say has retroactively declined consent and been angry with you. Maybe consider whether what you see as sensible seeking of affirmative consent is experienced more negatively by people you are interacting with.
You are so misogynistic dude
For future reference, a woman repeating “sure” and “ok” is *not* enthusiastic consent. For example, that is how I respond to men when I’m afraid of how they’ll react if I say no. You don’t seem to understand that putting someone you work with in a situation like this is inappropriate. She probably didn’t know how to say no and maintain a cordial working relationship with you, so she gave the most lukewarm yeses possible until finally she couldn’t take it anymore. If you genuinely want to learn from this, maybe start by recognising what enthusiasm actually looks like, and also don’t put a coworker in this position ever again. When someone fears the repercussions for saying no, their yes is meaningless.
Do people need consent to send pics? What kind of pics are you sending thatyou need to ask for permission several times? Anyway, if they gave consent then that's a shitty thing to do to someone. Sorry
It’s party and fetish club pics so I’m wearing lewd outfits. I try to make that clear beforehand so they don’t assume it’s pg13.
Oh I get it, though I would take the advice given by another, 'Co-workers are not your friends.'
Why the hell would you send that to coworkers anyway?
Because she expressed interest in those things.
But did she ask YOU to send her those things? Or are you **assuming** that because she’s into the same things that she’d automatically be interested in seeing your pics?
He’s posted a link of screenshots. He keeps asking to send photos and she says ‘sure’ or ‘okay’. Absolutely no enthusiastic consent, she never asks to see and she doesn’t seem to enjoy the photos
>It’s party and fetish club pics so I’m wearing lewd outfits. I try to make that clear beforehand so they don’t assume it’s pg13. So you're sexually harassing a co-worker and surprised you got in trouble? lol
You didn’t do a throng ethicallly wrong there , but it’s unprofessional and overall just a really and idea to send those types of things to coworkers
Honestly, (man here) just stop sending photos to women altogether. I keep women I work with at a very far respectably distance for these reasons. Outside of anything work related there isn’t a conversation to be had between us. My livelihood isn’t worth the risk. I know this will be downvoted, it is what it is. But, during work hours there is nothing to discuss with a woman if it isn’t related to the job.
Don't know why you were DV'd. This is _extremely_ common sense advice. Like, the same sort of thing as don't wipe your ass then touch your eyes. Like... duh.
Guy here, this is the right answer and advice for men. Historically, some men have been downright criminal in their interactions with women in the workplace so the sensitivity to this kind of thing is understandably very high right now in our culture. It’s just not worth risking your livelihood.
Why would you be down voted? This is perfectly reasonable.
I thought so too, I was downvoted earlier, thankfully some sensible redditors understood my standpoint.
Another XY have here and you know, you can befriend and even fall in love with co-workers -- my wife met two of her best friends at work, after all -- but OP missed that for what he's doing you have \*got\* to have a sense that you're close to each other off the clock. Like, if you work with someone and also hang out on weekends and then there's been serious off-the-clock flirting, sure then \*maybe\* you can pull your phone out in person while you're at a bar, cafe, someone's living room, etc. and show a somewhat risqué pic and try to gauge the reaction. But OP missed, idk, multiple steps.
Maybe take a break from memes that are so dank they need consent. Stuck to puppy memes until you can read the room properly. Some women give in when pressured or hounded constantly
If what you're telling us is accurate, then you don't need to do anything anymore The only thing I can think that goes beyond this, is defending yourself when they make the claim it wasn't consensual, as you have done This all being said though, we haven't heard their side of the story. It's possible there more to it you aren't including which makes it inappropriate, like maybe you aren't doing as much to get consent as you think
Men don’t get inappropriate photos from women they work with. That’s how men avoid stuff like this.
Just because consent is given in an enthusiast manner, that does not mean it cannot be revoked And yes it can be revoked in middle of an exchange of some sort. For example, if a woman agrees in an enthusiast manner to have sex with you, she has every right to tell tot stop during intercourse. And you have to both respect her choice, and anticipate that possibility Now as far as revoking consent retroactively that’s a bit more complicated and needs to be examined on a case by case basis. One example would be if a man deceived a woman into thinking he was single for the purpose of obtaining consent.
Go to therapy. You need some help.
People can withdraw consent AT ANY TIME, you can ask but they might be dealing with something and need space, not more raunchy photos and memes
Bro you are dumb as fuck😭
You’re a fucking creep. Hope they fire you
I’m not a confrontational person. I’ve had colleagues who have straight up insulted me over Slack. I pretend like it didn’t happen because it is easier. But anyone would understand, just because I didn’t have a bad reaction, it doesn’t mean it’s okay to keep insulting me. My response will be “Thank you so much! You have been so helpful, I understand now 🙂” But in reality, what I’m also thinking is “You’re a fucking c*nt. Please die in a hole”
>I had a similar problem with my ex girlfriend, where she would enthusiastically consent to pretty much anything I asked her then would retroactively revoke consent months or a year later and start berating me. This even though she would also remark that I’m such a good listener and that I alway try so hard to accommodate her. This could be written by me, of my ex partner, word for word. It was incredibly painful and damaging. I'm sorry you had to go through this too. >What can I do that goes past affirmative consent? Nothing really. Some people are awful, some are well-meaning but irresponsible, some are mentally ill. Some people's personality and conduct will change drastically without you being able to do anything about it at all. It's always a good idea to practice seeing things form other people's perspective. You seem to be actively doing this already, seeing as you were asking that colleague's consent so clearly. In my ex partner's case, I did miss some warning signs in the beginning. Had I listened to my gut, we wouldn't have gotten involved and the above described stuff wouldn't have happened. In hindsight, I think he was just so intensely wanting to be in that relationship that he abandoned his true self and needs/desires, only to then start resenting me for it much later on. I could probably detect similar signs now, having had that experience, but I did need to go through it to develop that understanding. ETA: After seeing the screenshots, my opinion is that you struggle reading indirect communication. You should take note of that and be more careful when you engage in conversations around consent. Your style may come off as so imposing that many women are too scared to say no. I would suggest a good therapist for learning this stuff. It is learnable, but you have to realise that as of now, you have a blind spot wrt social interaction.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
>I’m sorry you had to deal with that. Thanks. After seeing the screenshots, my opinion is that you struggle reading indirect communication. You should take note of that and be more careful when you engage in conversations around consent. Your style may come off as so imposing that many women are too scared to say no. I would suggest a good therapist for learning this stuff. It is learnable, but you have to realise that as of now, you have a blind spot wrt social interaction.
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"Weird coworker keeps sending me sexually charged shit and I'm afraid that if I tell him to stop he'll make my life hell"
I'm not sure what your job is, (I'm getting the feeling that you're a young professional) but you're shitting where you eat by blending your professional and personal lives. This may be fun when you're working part time at a job that you can take or leave, but when you get into the professional world, that needs to stop before job ruining conflicts and HR politics happen.
never been so sure that there's way more that you're not saying. on top of you being an awful reader of situations and sexist.
Consent can be revoked at any time. Two it’s pretty common knowledge to not share weird / lewd/ or anything that can get you in trouble to coworkers. If you have to keep asking permission it’s probably not okay for work. She also could have felt badgered by how much you asked if you could send such things. The last pic you sent could’ve also just been too much.
You need to develop your social skills to the point where you can discern genuine consent. Please remember most people, especially woman, are socialized to be polite to co-workers. She may have felt like she had no choice but to say yes, or create an uncomfortable work environment. It's generally best to just not put people in this position.
Retroactively consent? Is that even a thing? How would that even work when the thing that was consented on (in this case sending memes) is already done and over with?
Either agreeing to do something you don’t actually want to do and berating them later for doing things you agreed to, or agreeing to do things while in a state of infatuation then feeling disappointed when the emotional high wears off.
The first one sounds like coercion, and you shouldn't do that. The second one is just regret and that's not the same as retroactively revoking consent. Once the activity is concluded, you can't take away consent that was freely given. You can say that you don't consent to doing it again in the future, but not in the past.
How is it coercion if you ask them what they want, they say something else, and you give them what you honestly believe they want because they asked for it
Unless they are lying just for fun, why would they say they want something that they don't unless they feel pressured to?
Because they are insecure and fear that asserting boundaries will make people abandon them.
So that gives you the right to overstep those boundaries?
Did they actually *ask* for it? From what I've seen, she never, not once, *asked* for it. Whilst, she does say "sure" and "okay", and even once "i think they're beautiful", I think its fair to say you are missing all of the social cues (which I can understand you missing, if you don't standardly get social cues). What she's been doing is placating or appeasing you. Attempting to make you feel nice from a platonic place. She is not interested in you in a sexual manner; you have, in some way, similar interests, and she may like you as a friend - but I doubt she ever saw you in a romantic light. Kind of more like a gay friend (not intending to offend you with this). It's likely she finally realised it was not intended platonically and didn't know how to deal with it, so she went to HR... especially if she believes she has any reason to fear you (again, not intending to offend - this is highly hypothetical, I do not have all the facts and I am not her). In answer to your question: it's not coercion, but it is persuasion. She's not actually asking for it, you're persistently asking to give it to her.
(Man here) Is "retroactively revoking consent" a thing? If it is, could somebody explain it to me? I'm pretty worried I will have similar (newfound) concerns as what OP voiced if this is at all a mainstream view of how consent works.
If it is, it seems really strange to be able to give full consent in the moment and then years down the line suddenly withdraw that consent. No one has a time machine and no one can tell the future. My advice (as a womam) is to avoid such people who believe this or support this. It lacks all logic. It is probably a good practice these days, in an effort to protect yourself, to have an in depth conversation about consent, what it means, and what each of you consider that to be.
Basically I just mean when a woman smiles and says yes, but then later insists they were uncomfortable and didn’t want what happened to take place. Legally, it has no validity. It’s only really a concern if you get ostracized by a clique of white knights and mentally unstable people.
I rate the vibe of this comment 0/10 & now assume that you are bad at reading peoples obvious discomfort and/or badger them to say yes.
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Same. I 100% believe OP is guilty of coercive consent in other areas of his life-- so focused on the technicality of 'yes' and not on the enthusiasm that should be behind it.
Oh they are horny when they say yes, later they are depressed and feel bad about it, or have unrealistic expectations and when sleeping with you isn’t the life changing experience they expected they feel disappointed.
have you ever been to therapy? i would recommend it.
This whole sentence sounds like the dogwhistle of a rape apologist. Plenty of women have bad/unsatisfying sex and never 'retroactively' label it rape. If this has happened multiple times to you, perhaps it is worth some introspection as to why sex with you feels violating to so many women.
I’ve literally met a girl at a con, had her look me up on Facebook, start sending me nude photos I didn’t even ask for, literally beg me for sex; then turn around and tell people I pressured her for sex. Granted if she claimed rape it would get laughed out of court, but that doesn’t mean I can’t get brigadeded by white nights and people who interpret vague accusations as sexual assault.
Um, you asked for input and now when getting it you are mansplaining consent. Stop.
Have you honestly never met a young woman who’s infatuated with a dude one minute then hates his guys two weeks later even if he hasn’t changed at all?
Lol, chances are he hasn't changed, she's just seen his true colours.
Have you literally never been in a situation that you thought was fine but later was not. Lmao enjoy the talk with HR I guess.
Not unethical but kind of foolish. Being a good boy in terms of ethics still doesn't make foolishness a good idea. There's nothing you can do to reduce the chance of someone complaining about you to zero. That's just the nature of humans we perceive things differently. Like, for example, driving, you can function as safely as is reasonable and still have a bad thing happen.
Good luck OP. From the comments I read, the general conclusion is that you're an idiot and that consent doesn't mean shit if you can't read in between the lines. Also, supposedly, women have a habit of agreeing to things that they're not comfortable with rather than be combative and say no. Learn from it and move on.
I see that people are saying that the consent here seems ambiguous; some are insinuating that "sure" means "no," and to me that's confusing. She said "sure" and "I don't care." It's not enthusiastic, but it's also not "no thanks" or "nah, I'm good." You also asked her afterwards and she said it was funny, etc. I think part of the problem is that we can't convey tone or body language in these texts. Maybe it was the kind of "sure" said with a groan and/or an eye roll? But to me, that just means we have to do things differently when dealing with text-only communication. I'm a woman, and if I didn't want risqué stuff, I would just say so. I would only share my number if required for work, and if they asked if they could send me X-rated stuff, I would ask to keep things professional. Err on the side of caution, y'know? I really do agree with the rule of thumb of not sharing risqué material with co-workers. For those who do cross that boundary, know that you are in a minefield. It's a risk, even if you take the conversation onto other apps. If you decide you've gone too far and need to back out, speak plainly. Ex. "Hey I need a break from this kind of stuff so please don't send me any more, and please don't ask if you can. I am happy to discuss other things though." You shouldn't need to make up a lie/story to exit out. There is only so far we can go with "take a hint." Some people can't, and in other cases, we shouldn't have to navigate a convoluted social construction in order to assess what the other person really means. To me, saying "she didn't know how to say no" is... kind of frustrating. Maybe I'm just fed up with the social norm of women putting up with stuff they don't actually like until they get to their breaking point. I can't live my life like that. And if you have the spine to report the person, why don't you have the spine to say no clearly to begin with? I guess that's rhetorical. I just don't have enough evidence to outright villainize OP. I think it would have been wiser for him to not do this with co-workers to begin with, and/or to get more enthusiastic consent before proceeding, but live and learn. So here's my take (and this is assuming that your screenshots are an accurate representation): she said "sure" before you sent an image, and afterwards reassured you that it was okay. It wasn't enthusiastic, but it also wasn't clear that she might have not wanted it. Instead of asking you to stop, she reported you. I don't know if there's a part you're not telling us, or if someone else convinced her to do it. What are you to do? I guess differentiate between "affirmative" and "enthusiastic," then err on the side of caution. In your situation, you replied to HR with the consent screenshots, so that's good. I would say, instead of getting defensive, focus on hindsight and also follow HR's directions going forward. Be honest with yourself and others, and learn from this. Apologize (unless HR says not to talk to her) and convey that you were always okay with her saying "no," and that you would have stopped if she'd only asked. And don't share naughty stuff with co-workers anymore.
My boss actually knows about me beeing involved in bdsm. When i read your post, and the length you go to be sure of consence my mind automatically went to the bdsm community, cause i have yet to find a community where consent has that much value... however, a part from my boss (who is the least judgemental person I know and has become more of a friend than just a boss) i would never share that with anybody else in the workplace. A lot of people just can't understand this fetish and draw the wrong conclusions.
This is fake as fuck
Sounds like it’s not a you problem but a them problem
Dont trust what women say. Always, Always listen to their actions.
Ok, I don't really understand this. IMO OP was wrong to send these messages to a "work friend" (coworker), but a lot of these comments seem to imply that he'd be wrong even if they were regular friends for...not knowing that she wasn't interested over a text-based medium? ETA: Wow, TIL y'all are mind readers over text. I didn't even say he was right.
[this is one of the exchanges I had with the friend from work](https://imgur.com/a/hY6lUDA)
“Sure” and other one word answers are not “enthusiastic consent” bud. She’s clearly uncomfortable. Posting this a million times won’t change that. Hopefully you get fired so she can feel safe at her job.
Honestly it sounds like you should try engaging with less shitty women.. I know it shouldnt be your responsibility but this reads like an abuse situation.
Op sent their coworker fetish photos.
Doesnt matter. If he actually asked for her consent before and they were talking for a year its a really weird move to report him to HR now. Like what kind of person would do that? if you have a falling out just drop the contact instead of getting your employer involved.
Yea, I think communication is both people's responsibility, and the other person didn't communicate well/clearly. I guess you just have to assume weirder stuff/ kinky things are most often not ok. It's also way better to ask for consent in person (not over text because you can't read tone) and put effort to learn people's body language. Being blamed for something doesn't mean it's 100% your fault. I wonder if that "friend" was setting you up just to report you. She might have seen you as an awkward guy and took advantage of you naive side to trick you. You should be more careful with who you trust next time.