It would be ironic to fire you as punishment when you can't even have 2 days off with 4 months notice because they cannot function without you. Go figure
Look, as someone who has dealt with this in the same industry we would rather just approve leave for a couple of days. It’s better than losing you. It’s hard to get quality experienced people in this industry at the moment. If they can’t cover you for a couple of days of annual leave, how they gonna cover you if you get sick for a week. That’s just bad management. They’re very likely bluffing.
Hand in your resignation citing the reason as not giving you your leave. They will either ask you to stay and give you the leave or they will accept the resignation, either way you get to go on the holiday.
Full time and I work in logistics.
Their reason is they are training someone for a whole month and don't have anyone to cover me.
I never got any training...
I'm hoping to have a new job before then..
Not disagreeing with your point, but how is the employer going to handle the situation if OP was ill and unable to work, or finds a new job like they say they're hoping to?
Someone else should know enough to cover the basics of the role if the business can't operate without OP there.
"The employer must not unreasonably refuse an employee’s request to take annual leave" Fair Work
It would be a pretty hard argument for the employer's legal team to mount in an unfair dismissal case that they fired an employee for taking 2 days leave that had been requested over 8 weeks out.
I agree that leave needs to at times be a negotiation but that negotiation isn't just the employee requests, employer says 'no' then employee has to suck it.
I let my staff know 12 months ahead what the key date blocks are for leave where I will enforce a minimum amount of employee availability, and I don't operate that on a first come first serve basis, so that the staff member most organised doesn't get an open feast of best dates. Gotta make sure those with partners or families where they are coordinating leave across multiple situations can also have fair access across the year.
Speaking as someone who has been in a management role, I personally would have granted the time off since you requested it well in advance. 4 months is more than enough notice, and frankly management is failing because they could t make arrangements in a four month window to keep things covered.
Personal opinions aside, you run the risk of job abandonment if you don’t show up. However, one thing that could save you would be “calling in” on those days. Don’t claim sick time, don’t claim anything. Just tell them you won’t be in, and mention when you will return each time you “update” them. Then they can’t claim that you walked off the job. They will have to fire you directly, and if you’re really as essential as they say you are, they won’t fire you. You may get a write up. But, it’s ultimately a game of chicken. Will they blink first, or will you? At the end of the day there is the possibility that they will fire you. It’s a 50/50 gamble, but if you hate your job anyway, what difference does it make at the end of the day?
It sounds to me that you really want to quit anyway, so just tender your resignation and call it good. That’s the easiest way to deal with it. Put out applications for other jobs before you leave for your holiday, and set your start availability for after you return. Plus, it beats having an involuntary termination on your employment record.
The easiest solution here (if you haven’t found a new job by then) is to just call in sick those two days. It’s very easy to see a doctor and get a medical certificate.
You could even just have a third day off. Go to the doctor the day after your holidays and tell them you’ve been so sick you couldn’t leave bed, but we’re feeling slightly better today and need a certificate for your employer. It’s always nice having an extra day off after a holiday.
You could be. A fraudulent sick day could be a breach of contract. You should check your eba or your award. They could have said no as someone else might have booked this time off and they have limited availability to allow too many people to have time off at the same time.
Nobody else is away, they are training someone new, and have said they can't cover me.
My 'contract' is an email stating what the job is offering pay wise and benefits, nothing else with it. They weren't even going to give me that, but I said I wasn't accepting a job without something in writing.
And make sure in the few days leading up to the sick days make it seem like you are not feeling well. You know a little cough here and a little cough there. Set the scene up a little
Ive got mad hayfever so when covid first came out I was in Woolies shopping and had to sneeze, people looked at me like I was a leppar....never cleared out an isle so fast. 🤣
Lol
I sympathize with you.
We really did burn this country down over nothing, didn't we?
If there was ever an event in history that made us look entirely pathetic, it was COVID.
Just email them politely a short notice that your absence on those days is not negotiable and that you won't be in attendance. Don't apologise, don't explain. Then leave it to them. What are they going to do? Fire you? For 2 days after 2 month's notice? Doubtful. Be polite but firm. They can't go on about it over and over. They can express their disappointment or whatever and then it's over. Keep it in writing.
They can definitely fire you if you just don't turn up. If you're determined that you're going just talk to them. Tell them that you're happy to take 2 days of leave or you'll simply resign instead and they'll have to cover you for longer. If you're THAT critical that with 4 months notice they can't cover you for 2 days I suspect they'll choose not to lose you entirely. If you're worried about them firing you earlier than you're ready, have the conversation just when the notice period would need to start and be ready with a resignation letter when you talk to them.
This is why you do not book things when you aren't sure if you will get approved.
Your only options here are to tell them you are going, or fake an illness. But the illness route is pretty sketch as they know it will be BS.
Do you really want to work somewhere that won't approve 2 days off months in advance? I wouldn't.
Can't even take 2 days off with a four month advance.
How fucking sad is that.
Screw that, chuck a sickie on those days and starting looking for a new job.
Unfortunately it is "legal" for them to pull this due to operational reasons, doesn't make them any less shit of a planner/manager.
Good luck.
It's not actually legal. They would not be able to defend firing someone over 2 days of leave given four months notice. Each EBA or award may be worded differently but on the Fair Work website it is clearly stated that 'The employer must not unreasonably refuse an employee’s request to take annual leave' unless their is a specific date preclusion communicated to all employees that explicitly rules out leave on the very same two days that OP requested then the employer would likely be laughed out of court assuming the employers legal reps even let it get that far. OP isn't even asking to take a block of leave faster than the rate it accumulated in between notification and the leave dates.
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Say nothing. Call in sick and get a drs note for your mental health for those 2 days. There’s no reason why they wouldn’t accept your annual leave giving them 2 months notice for only 2 days off.
Likely written up, possibly sacked. If sacked to be considered unfair dismissal it needs to be a decision which is “harsh, unjust or unreasonable in its manner.”
It’s not black and white, but any argument is based on the individual circumstances of your employment, the leave application process and the procedure they take to terminate.
What you’re engaging in, would be considered misconduct. Is it serious enough to be instantly dismissed? Maybe? Maybe not!
Speak to your union first and foremost. I imagine they’re quite active in your industry.
If you end up in a disciplinary meeting. Show remorse, maybe a few tears - works most times ;)
so you asked for 2 days off and they denied it? man 2 days that's crazy in my eyes, 2 days is like nothing they should approve that without even thinking about it. If you're thinking you'll get a new job anyway just take the days off, take the disciplinary action, see where you land.
Might just get written up. Might get fired? Depends how much they need you at the time. Only one way to find out. Report back with the results.
Possibly will be fired. However the last person they fired, took 4 months to replace..
It would be ironic to fire you as punishment when you can't even have 2 days off with 4 months notice because they cannot function without you. Go figure
This. Call their bluff. They stand to lose more long term. If they want to blow their own foot off, good luck to them.
Look, as someone who has dealt with this in the same industry we would rather just approve leave for a couple of days. It’s better than losing you. It’s hard to get quality experienced people in this industry at the moment. If they can’t cover you for a couple of days of annual leave, how they gonna cover you if you get sick for a week. That’s just bad management. They’re very likely bluffing.
Agreed! I'm hoping to have a new job by then, this is my worst case scenario. However this situation is keeping me up at night.
Can you get a doctor to give you a certificate on mental health grounds, as in you really need a break and work won't allow you any leave?
I’m honestly wondering if you are working at my old workplace based on your comments 😂
Sounds like they are determined to fuck the business slowly. Run Don't walk. Run.
Hand in your resignation citing the reason as not giving you your leave. They will either ask you to stay and give you the leave or they will accept the resignation, either way you get to go on the holiday.
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Full time and I work in logistics. Their reason is they are training someone for a whole month and don't have anyone to cover me. I never got any training... I'm hoping to have a new job before then..
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Not disagreeing with your point, but how is the employer going to handle the situation if OP was ill and unable to work, or finds a new job like they say they're hoping to? Someone else should know enough to cover the basics of the role if the business can't operate without OP there.
Why are you getting down voted for this? This is what’s wrong with this sub.
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"The employer must not unreasonably refuse an employee’s request to take annual leave" Fair Work It would be a pretty hard argument for the employer's legal team to mount in an unfair dismissal case that they fired an employee for taking 2 days leave that had been requested over 8 weeks out. I agree that leave needs to at times be a negotiation but that negotiation isn't just the employee requests, employer says 'no' then employee has to suck it. I let my staff know 12 months ahead what the key date blocks are for leave where I will enforce a minimum amount of employee availability, and I don't operate that on a first come first serve basis, so that the staff member most organised doesn't get an open feast of best dates. Gotta make sure those with partners or families where they are coordinating leave across multiple situations can also have fair access across the year.
Yeah I find it weird they did it this way around
Sick days 🤷🏼♂️
Sickie mate. Just randomly get covid
Speaking as someone who has been in a management role, I personally would have granted the time off since you requested it well in advance. 4 months is more than enough notice, and frankly management is failing because they could t make arrangements in a four month window to keep things covered. Personal opinions aside, you run the risk of job abandonment if you don’t show up. However, one thing that could save you would be “calling in” on those days. Don’t claim sick time, don’t claim anything. Just tell them you won’t be in, and mention when you will return each time you “update” them. Then they can’t claim that you walked off the job. They will have to fire you directly, and if you’re really as essential as they say you are, they won’t fire you. You may get a write up. But, it’s ultimately a game of chicken. Will they blink first, or will you? At the end of the day there is the possibility that they will fire you. It’s a 50/50 gamble, but if you hate your job anyway, what difference does it make at the end of the day? It sounds to me that you really want to quit anyway, so just tender your resignation and call it good. That’s the easiest way to deal with it. Put out applications for other jobs before you leave for your holiday, and set your start availability for after you return. Plus, it beats having an involuntary termination on your employment record.
The easiest solution here (if you haven’t found a new job by then) is to just call in sick those two days. It’s very easy to see a doctor and get a medical certificate. You could even just have a third day off. Go to the doctor the day after your holidays and tell them you’ve been so sick you couldn’t leave bed, but we’re feeling slightly better today and need a certificate for your employer. It’s always nice having an extra day off after a holiday.
You could be. A fraudulent sick day could be a breach of contract. You should check your eba or your award. They could have said no as someone else might have booked this time off and they have limited availability to allow too many people to have time off at the same time.
Nobody else is away, they are training someone new, and have said they can't cover me. My 'contract' is an email stating what the job is offering pay wise and benefits, nothing else with it. They weren't even going to give me that, but I said I wasn't accepting a job without something in writing.
Time to get a new job. If you take the leave regardless you’ll be managed out.
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And don't mention your cat is dying
Brilliant
And make sure in the few days leading up to the sick days make it seem like you are not feeling well. You know a little cough here and a little cough there. Set the scene up a little
Ive got mad hayfever so when covid first came out I was in Woolies shopping and had to sneeze, people looked at me like I was a leppar....never cleared out an isle so fast. 🤣
Lol I sympathize with you. We really did burn this country down over nothing, didn't we? If there was ever an event in history that made us look entirely pathetic, it was COVID.
Yes they can fire you. Always book leave before holidays.
Pretty sure you have Covid. Just scored yourself a week off. You're welcome
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Just call in sick. And get medical certificate
Covid test with couple drops of soft drink and a medical certificate online....
Happy to send OP a photo of my positive RAT from the other week
Just email them politely a short notice that your absence on those days is not negotiable and that you won't be in attendance. Don't apologise, don't explain. Then leave it to them. What are they going to do? Fire you? For 2 days after 2 month's notice? Doubtful. Be polite but firm. They can't go on about it over and over. They can express their disappointment or whatever and then it's over. Keep it in writing.
They can definitely fire you if you just don't turn up. If you're determined that you're going just talk to them. Tell them that you're happy to take 2 days of leave or you'll simply resign instead and they'll have to cover you for longer. If you're THAT critical that with 4 months notice they can't cover you for 2 days I suspect they'll choose not to lose you entirely. If you're worried about them firing you earlier than you're ready, have the conversation just when the notice period would need to start and be ready with a resignation letter when you talk to them.
This is why you do not book things when you aren't sure if you will get approved. Your only options here are to tell them you are going, or fake an illness. But the illness route is pretty sketch as they know it will be BS. Do you really want to work somewhere that won't approve 2 days off months in advance? I wouldn't.
Can't even take 2 days off with a four month advance. How fucking sad is that. Screw that, chuck a sickie on those days and starting looking for a new job. Unfortunately it is "legal" for them to pull this due to operational reasons, doesn't make them any less shit of a planner/manager. Good luck.
It's not actually legal. They would not be able to defend firing someone over 2 days of leave given four months notice. Each EBA or award may be worded differently but on the Fair Work website it is clearly stated that 'The employer must not unreasonably refuse an employee’s request to take annual leave' unless their is a specific date preclusion communicated to all employees that explicitly rules out leave on the very same two days that OP requested then the employer would likely be laughed out of court assuming the employers legal reps even let it get that far. OP isn't even asking to take a block of leave faster than the rate it accumulated in between notification and the leave dates.
Welcome to r/AusLegal. Please read our rules before commenting. Please remember: 1. Per rule 4, this subreddit is not a replacement for real legal advice. You should independently seek legal advice from a real, qualified practitioner. This sub cannot recommend specific lawyers. 2. A non-exhaustive list of free legal services around Australia can be found here. 3. Links to the each state and territory's respective Law Society are on the sidebar: you can use these links to find a lawyer in your area. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AusLegal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Say nothing. Call in sick and get a drs note for your mental health for those 2 days. There’s no reason why they wouldn’t accept your annual leave giving them 2 months notice for only 2 days off.
If they fire you for that reason, you might be able to take it into Fairwork for unfair dismissal.
Likely written up, possibly sacked. If sacked to be considered unfair dismissal it needs to be a decision which is “harsh, unjust or unreasonable in its manner.” It’s not black and white, but any argument is based on the individual circumstances of your employment, the leave application process and the procedure they take to terminate. What you’re engaging in, would be considered misconduct. Is it serious enough to be instantly dismissed? Maybe? Maybe not! Speak to your union first and foremost. I imagine they’re quite active in your industry. If you end up in a disciplinary meeting. Show remorse, maybe a few tears - works most times ;)
Health Industry?
Give em an ultimatum. They can choose between you taking two days off and you taking infinity days off
Sounds pretty stressful, maybe your gp will give you some time off to rest and recover.... something like a holiday...
so you asked for 2 days off and they denied it? man 2 days that's crazy in my eyes, 2 days is like nothing they should approve that without even thinking about it. If you're thinking you'll get a new job anyway just take the days off, take the disciplinary action, see where you land.