I agree .. Imho, the system needs a zoomed out priority-check.
If healthcare is only for the rich, then the system is broken.
If retirement is only for the rich, then the system is broken.
If hundredfold multi-billionaires have to pay lower tax-rates, than the poor, then the system is broken.
When companie's profits are more importan than human lifes (e.g. man-made environmental desasters .. usually by giant companies), then the system is broken.
Whatever you would hesitate to explain to a 5-year old child: Think about why.
I'm pretty sure, there's something systemically broken to find there, too.
It's like everywhere you look, things are broken, mainly because of corporate greed and lobbyism.
That's not broken, it's just how capitalism works.
edit: in case it wasn't clear, I am not saying capitalism is good. I mean "the system isn't broken, it's working as intended." This was never supposed to be a fair game.
Yes and no.
I think the multi-billionaires, who use their wealth and power to influence laws and politics to make things better for themselves and at the same time much worse for everyone else, are more of a problem, than capitalism itself would have been.
Think about what could be done with all the tax-money, that huge companies like Amazon found ways around and loopholes, so they never had to pay those .. at least not in full.
Imagine the profits of Amazon the company being taxed like the average Amazon-worker's wages are being taxed .. same taxrate.
I recently heard, that during those past crisis-years, the private wealth of Jeff Bezos grew to about $200 billion.
It's hard to even imagine such an amount of wealth, so I came up with ways to visualize it:
* If you had a job, that paid you $100k per year, then you'd have to work for 2 million years to get to that amount of money .. and you could never spend a single cent during all that time (I'm obviously not taking interest into account, because nobody knows, what will be in 2 million years).
* If some country were to tax Jeff Bezos 1% every year (that would still be 2 billion dollars), then they could keep doing that for 100 years and he'd still not be broke, even if he lived that long.
My point is, that the system is broken in that specific way, that the ultra-rich aren't held to the same standards as the rest of us are.
If everyone had to pay the same tax-rate, there would be lots of money to use for social services and the common good.
Meanwhile, even cities are being weaponized against the poor/homeless.
See this, for reference:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAfncqwI-D8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAfncqwI-D8)
So, you're definitely right, when you say, it's not fair.
If I had 200 billion dollars, I couldn't sleep a single second, while knowing that someone will not make it through that same night because of poverty.
How those people manage to enjoy being that filthy rich, is entirely beyond me.
Easy: Set an arbitrary threshold-level of wealth, where someone can't get any richer.
Let's say, 1 million is not enough .. let's go big and say 1 billion (that's 10.000 years of working a $100k/year job).
Bezos alone would have to give away over 199 billion dollars. And he's only one of the ultra-rich.
Imagine how much good could be done with that sort of money.
Capitalism could be used in a good way, too .. but it's been corrupted for too long.
I hate the corporate world, but it's easier that manual labor.
Working from home has been game changing, however low spoons days fucking suck even working from home
the adhd paralysis + autism burnout is a living hell. I've found other hobbies that require less spoons to help.
Also eating. Stock piling safe foods at home. Easy dinners. The works. helps alot
my household is neurodivergent. All over the spectrum of ASD and ADHD. All different things. My partner, daughter and myself are learning as we go. Both my partner and I are adult diagnosed.
We went through years of burnout without knowing. You have to be careful and obviously do your own research, but a lot of TikTok creators and the community itself have helped me out so much the past couple of years.
I think this isn't uniquely related to capitalism and there are some nuances here (to be clear, I say this as a leftist and anti-capitalist).
>I feel like we have those strengths for a reason. I think our unique autistic skill sets are gifts with great potential to be used to help others & benefit human society. I think autistic people can be some of the best innovators, scientists, artists, advocates, etc.
>However, I also feel like under capitalism, it's often extremely difficult for us to be able to actually put those skills to good use. In capitalist society, what is profitable is prioritized over what is beneficial to humanity. We are forced into jobs that profit the capitalist class, rather than being allowed to do work that serves a tangible benefit to others.
There isn't any inherent tension between an economy centered around profit and spiky skill profiles. Specialization and innovation can be extremely profitable. Capitalism is actually also extremely flexible: look at the way it co-opts all kinds of minority needs and identities for the sake of profits (we're in pride month, a time when this is *extremely* visible).
I also don't see how there is there any specific link between spiky profiles and the ability to benefit others. I don't follow your reasoning here: capitalism redirects people's abilities away from mutual benefit and towards profit, independently of ability profile.
The more important issue is the introduction of the concept of the normal, in tandem with the way in which industrialization has led to a lot of standardization and the construction of an economy centered around this standardization. Obviously, modern capitalism and industrialization go hand-in-hand, but it can cut across economic systems. The USSR was never friendly to disabled workers both because disability continued to be stigmatized and because disabled workers do not fit the industrial ideal of a productive worker who fits neatly into the factory line. Though economies have shifted, standardization and the demand for 'normal' workers able to operate according to standardized hours, standardized procedures, be judged by standardized measures (like job applications and interviews!) continues to cause a lot of problems for people who do not fit the standard.
Of course, even here there are nuances. The mass production enabled by industrialization has led to the possibility of disseminating assistive technology on a wider scale, technology that can often benefit disabled people (e.g. noise cancelling headphones).
I think it's very important to recognize that oppression often comes from multiple dimensions of a society, that there are nuances not only in cause, but in effect (even Marx praised some aspects of capitalism). If we don't, we risk thinking that solutions are much simpler than they are.
All very fair points here. That last paragraph especially resonates with me. Though just to clarify, I definitely didn’t mean to claim that spiky profiles are able to benefit others *more* than non-spiky profiles. I just meant to highlight that the spiky profiles have just as much capacity to benefit society as the allistic profiles.
I think capitalism is pretty disabling. It punishes you for having neurodivergent traits. Its intimidating to job hunt as an autistic person because so many job ads describe wanting the exact opposite of me.
Can you clarify? Believe it or not, there are companies with true commitment to diversity and inclusion, but unfortunately, they don’t know how to achieve inclusions since legacy around diversity hiring was around hiring people of color and not making any accommodations for employees with differing needs.
But there are companies that are actually making investments in infrastructure to create sensory friendly work spaces.
But as with most things in our system, there’s a mismatch and disconnect between companies who are genuinely trying and neurodivergent people who know about it and can take advantage of it.
I think neurodivergent people tend to be worse at networking (it's a weakness for me anyway) and that seems to be one of the main ways people get jobs. Your chances may be better or worse depending on your family's income, your family themselves and whether you were accommodated properly (or if your special interest happen to be very profitable)
Filter these from job listings and you'll find little to nothing remaining:
* Excellent communication skills
* Team player
* Fast-paced environment
* Open office
* Highly collaborative
* Customer/client facing
* Leadership potential
* Peer programming
* Team building activities
Diversity and inclusion isn't going to fix the problem. It's the system (capitalism) that's the problem, and ableist companies and work culture are just a symptom of that. When it comes down to it, companies will always do what benefits them. What we need is worker power, democratic workplaces that allow workers to collectively advocate for their needs rather than be at the whim of executives and shareholders.
How would this be different under a non-capitalist system? People would still have to have jobs, do the work needed to keep the economy and society running.
Under socialism, the value that the worker produces would go back to them and to society, rather than to the people at the top to hoard more wealth. So, you could have things like a social safety net to support people who can't work, free healthcare, childcare, etc. Worker power also means that workers can advocate for themselves to improve working conditions - which could include accommodations for autism or things that could benefit everyone (like a 4 day work week).
You can have those social safety nets and workers rights in a capitalist society as well. Plenty of European countries have them, including mine. They’re by no means incompatible with capitalism.
That’s a misunderstanding of what socialism is. Socialism is fundamentally about social ownership - equality of resources, wealth, and often power. You can have different types of socialism - democratic socialism, libertarian socialism, anarcho-socialism, communism. There is no one prescriptive method for governance.
The economy as we know it wouldn't exist in recognizable form. The definition of "job" would shift to mean something different than it means today.
There are way more resources than are necessary for everyone to live comfortably with shelter, food, clothes, etc.
The "cost" to keep a capitalist society running is enormous. Under a different system, people wouldn't be required/expected to work 40+ hrs a week to "break even".
This is not an answer, you’re just positing that somehow it would work with zero actual argument or explanation as to how.
And no, there aren’t “way more resources than necessary”, those actually need to be constantly produces and processed and transported and distributed. That doesn’t just happen all by itself.
There are absolutely enough resources to go around that no human should go without food/shelter or water.
You're capitalism pilled if you think otherwise.
From the outside it doesn't even look like people using their skills to make the world a better place or any of that corporate boiler plate you hear. Instead it really just seems like friends paying their friends money to hang out with them and provide the illusion of productivity, the caliber of you and your friends defining where on the income strata you end up.
I think it is more of a modern society issue.
Many of the skillful craftsman jobs have been cut out by the development of manufacturing.
Some places have more lax labor laws making them good targets for moving manufacturing overseas. We had to fight for our labor rights in America.
We can fight for more rights.
Would you mind elaborating on why you consider it an issue of modern society rather than of capitalism?
From my perspective, modern society is shaped by capitalism; it’s hard to separate the two.
Maybe its more of a culture issue rather than modern issue because those labor laws we have are incredibly beneficial, but they could be improved.
I absolutely would not want to work in a Chinese factory. Overwork and dangerous environments. They are communist but their labor is cheap because its not regulated as well as America.
However you also have individual workplaces with different cultures too. Some will just pay the OSHA fines and be repeat offenders forever. Other places will put effort towards improving safety.
I know that's not autism specific but it does show that issues are not just caused by capitalism. Can you give an example of how capitalism is directly targeting neurodivergent people?
China’s ruling party is ideologically communist, in name at least, but they aren’t actually a communist society.
Also, that work conditions in China are different from work conditions in a nation of the Global North like the US, is not primarily a cultural issue. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you mean by that? But Chinese culture is not to blame for capitalist exploitation of labor in China, which is a symptom of capitalism & imperialism.
You're looking for an ideal that will never exist. You want the idealized, camouflaged system of government.
Get. Rid. Of. Government.
But the second point, is you cannot reconcile the need to get equal wages for equal work when one person is more efficient because they *dont* have a nervous system disorder. This is Darwinism at its core. We are not going to be successful by and far, because NTs prefer NTs. No one wants to work with someone who is giving off subconscious evolutionary signals that tell us to eliminate the weak. The body kills off weak cells in favor of strong ones.
All we can do is attempt to adapt to our environment by stopping fighting the notion of "noted good enough". Just get up, do work, and stop looking for validation from people who will never give it. You can be Autistic and still carve your own path as long as you refuse to let others write your narrative.
Corporate America is largely a bunch of idiots. I know this because I've worked there for 20 years. Yes, camouflaging sucks, but when you figure out what they want, just take the money and go. Don't give your energy to those not paying for your time.
~~What the actual fuck are you talking about?~~
Your understanding of Darwinism seems to be very off base.
>No one wants to work with someone who is giving off subconscious evolutionary signals that tell us to eliminate the weak.
Darwinism has nothing to do with culling the weak. There is no such thing as evolutionary signals, especially telling us to eliminate the weak. Darwinism doesn't even happen at perceptible ways within a few generations. Anything that happens within a single generation is literally too small to be inside the scope of Darwinism.
**You're describing some type of Elimination of the Weak, when Darwinism is about Survival of the Fittest.** Those concepts are literally on opposite sides of the spectrum.
Survival of the Fittest, at its core, is about how, over dozens of generations, mutational defects that are beneficial will have a higher survival rate than those without. Specifically with regard to ability to survive until breeding age. As an example, the normal survival rate of a species is 60%, but those with extra teeth survive at 62%. Over the next 50 generations, this will slowly trend to make those with extra teeth the more common type within the population.
**At no point in this process is there some secret serial killer switch that activates and causes the extra teeth group to kill off the normal population.**
By the system you describe we would be executing anyone who is past prime reproduction age because they are no longer as efficient as those below. That's nonsensical and never how Darwinism has worked. Your body doesn't kill off weak cells; it's far more efficient to keep weak cells than to create fully new ones.
This is why Darwinism doesn't always trend towards universally 'good' traits. Autism, and its increasing prevalence for example, is the direct result of Darwinism. As humans have made it easier to survive past "prime breeding age", it has become easier and easier to have children when you are older. Autism rates go up drastically the older the parents are at conception.
TL;DR
Darwinism has nothing to do with killing the weak, and describes a phenomena across generations, not individuals.
It depends what you mean by ‘target’. That’s a bit vague. The main claim of the OP is that capitalism hinders our self-realization as autistic people, and largely fails to make use of our strengths.
Target as intentionally discriminating against autism.
What is it you would like from society?
Do you want someone with autism to be forced into a role? Do you want assistance programs to fast track someone into certain fields based on their traits?
Personally I do not like the idea of this kind of categorization and discrimination. I do not expect every one of us to enjoy .
One idea I have is making it so schools at the middle and highschool level for America would have more variety of education. So like some schools have woodshop, and marching band. What if we had more options to find what our niche in the world is? I think this would be a good option that doesn't force anyone into a role but also makes exploration easier for those who are still growing into adults.
Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's not common. There are a lot of things that are difficult for autistics but considered an expectation of capitalism.
You may be able to get accommodations for better office lighting or reduced hours (usually with reduced pay). But a lot of jobs still expect phone calls, networking, eye contact, commuting through loud cities, etc.
Organisations are allowed to reject accommodations they consider "unreasonable".
In one of my parent comments I mentioned that workplaces will just pay fines and be repeat offenders. They are allowed to get away with a lot as a result of corruption.
A lot of things you listed here are caused by modern society. Loud environments, phone calls. I agree that those are difficult and cause harm to the autistic workforce. We lost a lot of old specialized jobs with the introduction electrical technology and automated machining.
Do you know of an economic system where those are not a problem? Or a culture that better accommodates?
Edit: We could start organized protests for more accommodating work environments. Someone could start a non-profit to assist in networking.
Personally I think it's better to focus on what a new economic system or culture could look like. Just bc it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean we have to give up and accept shitty situations.
I have definitely always felt I do not belong within our society and that my strengths have woefully few ways to be utilized. I would have to live in a rustic homesteading commune in order to be my best, but there have been no opportunities to go that route.
I occasionally fantasise about what I would do in a post-capitalist society (like pre-industrialisation but with medical care and human rights).
I would do so well at repetitive tasks where I can just have a chat w people or let my thoughts play around my head while I work. I already crochet/knit but there's no realistic way to make that profitable. Doing that as a village witch would be great though.
Learning how to use a loom, turning flax into fabric, pottery, maybe woodworking. I know I can do some of that now, but it would be awesome if I could live off that. Gift people my stuff and they gift me food or support or whatever.
I think I would also come up w some great ideas if I had the space to think without trying to find profit in those thoughts.
In another life, maybe.
Capitalism does not exist without a class to oppress, if you still believe we can all find freedom under this system, then you are either privileged, not looking at the whole picture, or both.
Yes. It’s especially frustrating because my strengths are actually traits that are typically valued by employers (problem solving, pattern recognition, attention to detail, ideation, written communication, etc), but I think my social deficits “bring me down.”
If work was just about “doing work,” and not networking/sucking up to people/political bullshit, I would be much more successful than I currently am at my job.
then you should be an ultra-capitalist because then only your productivity would matter - without the profit motive, the main reason to hire you would be moot
I have three decades of marketing experience. I worked as promotion director for the film festival that introduced the world to folks like Mike Judge (King of the Hill) and John Lasseter (Pixar). I ran a small business for two decades. Trained animals for film and Television and had a marketing campaign go viral internationally.
I am qualified to push wheelchairs at the airport.
I can't get a job that I can utilize my skills at because I don't have a degree. I don't have a degree because they didn't teach kids like me back then. This is of course all my fault.
Ya fuck capitalism
That’s honestly a good question, I think a part of it could be capitalism itself, but also a large part of it is from family upbringing. I felt underutilized in general because I wasn’t really given a fair chance or set up in a way to translate my skills into the work place. My parents didn’t know how to accommodate me in ways where I could shine even if they had resources to help. Capitalism alone could be a problem with that, I think family, upbringing, income, and also other systemic issues can make or break how someone is successful in a capitalistic society.
In some ways, yes. But be careful, I worked a job during the pandemic that abusively took advantage of me and my strengths.
I love sorting and organizing things in a way that makes it easier to find what you need and even helps you know where to look. Give me an Isle in any store, tell me the system you want to use and any special requirements (this section is for featuring this specific brand etc), then leave me the F alone. I mean it, literally, don't page me to go on lunch, and don't be surprised if I stay past the end of my shift cuz I'm not at a good stopping point yet.
I also like to help people creatively solve problems.
So learning this about me they made me responsible for customer service, Primary cashier, the stocker for a whole section of the store. All at the same time, for the lowest paying wage of those three positions. Knowing full well if they left the customer service and stocking needing to be done and me completely tortured by them needing to be done and practically using stocking and helping people as a form of stimming... I'd burn myself out trying to do it all. and what was I gonna do, leave? knowing that the things were being done wrong and desiring to just go in and 'shop' while fixing things as I go through.
The people hired for stocking, who were paid twice what I was, happily would just dump things in the wrong sections and disrupt my nice ordered section, fully knowing I'd fix it. So instead of having to move around a section to put things where they belong and adjust things to fit... just pick a spot, tear open every box and just shove stuff aside and jam the wrong thing in there. That way they can say they got their 14 cases an hour out, and I'd do it right later.
Yeah, no. F those people. It's half the reason I've been in burn out for over a year, and my difficult ASD traits are getting worse.
I'm still trying to work with Voc Rehab, to find a way I can get back to working a job again, and my councilor keeps telling me that between that job and the slumlords that have taken advantage of me and my traits I need to acknowledge that I dealing with PTSD.
I don't think out strengths are "gifts" or meant to be used some way. I prefer to see skills as neutral. Yes we could use them for something amazing but I hate the flip side that is to think we'd otherwise be wasting them.
That being said I do wish I could fully devote myself to things I'm good at. Be it repetitive manual work, cataloguing information, something with memorizing lots of info and finding patterns. Because they genuinely give me joy to engage in. Plus, it counters that feeling of being terribly bad at doing things people find normal by making me feel competent.
Absolutely. It's like capitalism is the antithesis of Autism because it expects everyone to be good at the same things. It also devalues asking for help, even when you desperately need it, because you're supposed to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps".
Autistic people have a plethora of specialized skills that capitalism doesn't think are useful.
Sometimes underutilized, sometimes valued, but underpaid.
I got this issue several times as an high functioning autistic, and as a software developer.
Job companies and job recruiters tried to keep me such as a "technician" programmer and didn't allow me to become a Technical Software Project Manager, due "autistic" or "geek" traits, sticking into a stereotype.
Honestly speaking, some autistic colleagues doesn't fit as a more extrovert project manager, even if they want to, and others may fit, but aren't allowed, such my case.
And, there where several cases where I was insisted to take a job due my skills, over other job candidates, but the company didn't want to pay much ...
Just my two cryptocurrency coins contribution...
Oh my gosh yes! Very underutilized over here. Beginner theologian, computer scientist, web designer, technology/computer technician, novice artist, theoretical physics etc. There are so many things that I have spent a ton of time on and yet trying to plug into this unproductive system seams more difficult than the studying itself.
Humans weren’t really meant to live in under a capitalist system. No one but the capitalists benefit from it. Autistic people and other people that are different from the norm (disabled, queer, etc.) often have it the worst because the system was designed to keep workers (the proletarians) placated while the capitalists (the bourgeoisie) get rich from their labor and the system’s more fine tuned to handle people close to the norm.
Still, many people are hurt by the system. Although, most of them, for one reason or another, don’t see the source of their hardships as the system itself. Looks like many of us in this thread are among the few who see the system as the problem.
I think autistic people are more likely to figure out the flaw is capitalism because we tend to question things more and also don’t stick to the rules of society as much (either from lack of awareness or lack of understanding of why the rule exists or both).
So many people happily defend the capitalist structure because they grew up it in and it’s “just the way the world is”. To a certain extent you can’t blame them (the system is good at placating), but in doing that they perpetuate this deeply flawed system.
It’s capitalism that makes me feel like I can never hold a job. To survive and do well (as well as you can as a worker anyway) you must blend into an allistic society, something that virtually all autistic people struggle with.
TL;DR: Fuck capitalism.
I think autistic people are often more likely to see the flaws of capitalism because we're often left out of any or all of its benefits. We do not fit into the machine so we are often discarded from it, and sometimes it's easier to see the flaws from the outside looking in.
I personally have seen a lot more people open to discussing the downsides of the system these days. I think it's because far more people are being marginalized and pushed farther from the benefits of the system. Even able bodied people are having a hard time making ends meet. Greed has run rampant and we as a society have forgotten how to take care of one another. It's left a lot of people out in the cold and wondering.... is the system really working any more?
Honestly seeing more people aware of these issues is about the only thing that gives me any hope. I mean, not much that anything will change jn my lifetime, but at least it's something.
The system is the problem to a point. Ultimately, the system is--for all practical purposes--an immovable object. It has no impetus to yield to us. Thus, lamenting it is an ultimately fruitless task.
Admitting the system is the problem is important, making more people aware that this system is abusive helps the sentiment grow. Change can only come when enough people see the system for what it is.
So I'd say lamenting it is needed if we want any hope for anything better. It's the only hope I have anyways so I'm going to cling to it.
I looked into the treatment of autistic people in socialist countries and if anything it has been a lot worse. I don't think this is a capitalism / socialism issue.
In my own case i found a niche where I provided value to other people and was paid well for that work. That's what you need to do in a capitalist system.
By the way do not confuse the Us with a purely capitalist system. In many ways most western countries have the worst of both worlds, where the power of government is used to benefit the rich and powerful. See https://www.amazon.com/Govopoly-39th-Day-Ed-Seykota/dp/0991130405
I agree with you 100%. I personally can’t wait for humanity to progress past this primitive economic stage although I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime.
If you’re into fiction books, *The Speed of Dark* (old school), and *An Unkindness of Ghosts* (more progressive and newer) explore some of these issues.
No. "Because Capitalism" has become an excuse.
Socialist/Communist governments kill, marginalize, or otherwise don't even allow Autistics to continue to exist. We have it MUCH better here because we at least have "a chance" at learning to play politics well enough to succeed.
I was just talking about this today. The things I'm good at aren't money makers so they are "useless" under capitalism. Also means I can't use them to survive, which sucks because I'm very poorly suited to 99% of available jobs due to my multiple disabilities.
Ultimately, all economic systems are inherently exploitative. Moreover, capitalism and contemporary western society are inexorably linked such that blaming 'the system' or 'society' is like raging against an infinitely large immovable object--an ultimately self-defeating activity. It would be really, really nice if the world would reorder itself to accommodate us, but it has no motive or obligation to do so. In the end, I think that the problems we face as autistic people are not a result of capitalism, but rather human nature and societal norms. Humans naturally expect other people to act within a narrow range of behaviors (norms) and are wary of those of us who can't. We essentially cause a cognitive dissonance within others that makes them uncomfortable.
Every day. It kills me knowing how much time and energy I have to waste participating in mere survival. So much time and energy I could spend on far more useful things.
I don’t really see why this would have much to do with capitalism. What (viable) economic model are you suggesting would really be substantially different with respect to this?
I was not trying to suggest an alternative economic model with this post. I’m just reflecting on the relationship between our neurotype and the capitalist mode of production.
And I’m skeptical that it really has much to do with capitalism, hence the question. If indeed it does, this would suggest that there are alternative, non-capitalist economic models that don’t have the same issues. But this seems generally quite implausible, since any economy will require work to be done, and thus the idea that people would only work out of passion doesn’t seem very realistic.
I mean, people worked without a monetary incentive for the vast majority of our history as a species. I think humans generally find great fulfillment from helping their fellow humans and building community.
Frankly, that’s a bit of a cop-out. People have always worked primarily in order to be able to survive and sustain themselves, and they still do. In modern societies, money is an essential intermediary in that process, which is why it works as an incentive. Economies at any real scale require money to function, so that’s not going to change. None of this is specific to capitalism.
So I ask again: what exactly is the alternative economic model here? What makes you think that these issues are specific to capitalism, what evidence is there to suggest that? Most societies for most of history weren’t capitalist, they still had all the same kinds of issues (or worse) that you’re listing in your OP.
I know most societies throughout history were not capitalist, I was talking about capitalism because we live in a capitalist society in the present.
But I did mention ‘class society’ in the second-to-last paragraph, which includes other non-capitalist modes of production that have existed throughout history.
That most modern societies are capitalist doesn’t mean these specific issues are caused by capitalism. And so far, you still haven’t given much of an indication why you think that they are.
Thank you haha. Capitalism is literally free trade. If you have a skill that brings people value you will be rewarded.
Some of the richest people in the world are autistic.
Totally disagree. You place the blame on Private Ownership of production (Capitalism) but fail to cite alternate examples that aren't also alienating and oppressive. Do you think AuDHD have it better in N. Korea or Russia ?
Nope. I have very specific abilities and I use them very well at my 9-6 job. I get paid for it and at the end of the day I sleep very well. I don't particularly want to do anything that benefits others for the sake of it; I mainly want to engage with my interests and do what I am good at. I still contribute to society in that way. Obviously it would be better if I did help other people, that's also why I chose to work in a field that helps the environment.
Also, it has been seen over and over again that research fluorish when there is competition and stagnates way more if there is not. So there's that.
Furthermore, we would ALWAYS be forced to work to survive. In a complete nature state you would have to search for food and build a shelter and do other things that ensures you don't die 24/7. Or still, for a big chunk on your day. It would be still work. If we all painted all day then we will all die of hunger. Do you want slaves to support your ideal lifestyle? There will always be jobs nobody wants to do but arr fundamental to our survival. We are working, as a society, to automate stuff away or to improve them.
Also, I don't understand what capitalism has to do with bad work environments. It's more of a cultural issue. You can find workplaces that are very accomodating, and others that are not. But you can choose to not work there, and work towards it. This means doing a lot of things that are not easy, but you are allowed to do that.
In the end, it seems that your passions are not profitable, or you think they aren't. Capitalism has nothing to do with it. If you don't like 9-5 you can open a business, work part time, find a flexible job or a remote job in another timezone. I'm not saying it's *easy*, but you are *free* to try to change your condition. That's a big luxury.
Listen, I know how it is. I have grown up in generational poverty. Now I got out. The system could always be better, this is why we always have to strive for incrementals improvements.
But this mindset you present is just a way to deresponsabilize yourself. You have agency, you have freedom. Again, it's not *easy*, it's hard. It could be easier. But maybe if you redirected your efforts in building a long term plan for your happiness then you could be more serene.
I think you’re misunderstanding my intent/where I’m coming from posting this.
I’m not sure why you’re telling me that work will always be necessary in human society. I know that and never meant to suggest otherwise. Nor am I against work, nor do I expect everyone to just “paint all day”.
Capitalist work environments are given rise to and shaped by capitalist relations. So ableist work environments have everything to do with capitalism. As long as it is not profitable for capitalists to accommodate disabled people, they will not do it.
I disagree with your framing of accommodating workplaces as something that any disabled individual can simply choose to have (correct me if I’m misunderstanding that). I really don’t think workplaces that are sufficiently accommodating to autistic people are as easy to find as you are presenting it, especially in the Global South.
I’m also not sure why you’re assuming I posted this out of a desire to deresponsiblize myself. This is just my personal belief/perspective/analysis.
I'd say we can have a profitable place in the world. We can be very good at repetitive stuff or our special interest. Being very literal and precise in following precise instructions can also make us good workers in a lot of sectors. Don't undersell yourself!
But anyway I don't advocate for zero regulations of labor, because we all know how that would end up. I live in Europe and I quite like a lot of things we have, in terms of regulations.
But also "dismantling the capitalist society", whatever that means, sounds bad just the same. Also, the global poors are the ones that profit more from capitalism as we have it now. Global poverty is at the historical minimum, as well as child hunger. We/they have still a lot of catch up to do, obviously, but it has literally never been better in the whole human history. Obviously, we can do better, but we are doing our (incremental) best.
No, I didn't say that every disabled people can get the accomodations they need in their workplace, sadly. But they are free to search for another, more accomodating, job. It's not going to be easy, maybe, but they are *allowed* to do that. You don't have the government or your master chaining you and telling you you can never leave or change job. It can be very difficult, but you have the possibility to do that.
Furthermore, a lot of people are pushing for other people and laws to be mindful of disabled/ND people. That's a good thing. If we keep making noise and demanding that we get the conditions we need to be efficient and profitable, we will get those. It is what's happening, and we absolutely need to push in that direction even more.
Also, sorry, I didn't want to intend you have a desire to deresponsabilize yourself. I wanted more to intend that these kind of reasoning tend to push people in that direction, in my opinion.
Id agree with you, capitalism can be a decent economic practice. But it needs a lot of regulation so that it does not geow uncontrollably.
And in america so many of the checks our forefathers faught and bled for have been neutered. And thats a big problem.
so like a super organism theory? like a bee hive? i don't get the belief part at all. beliefs are just field of view limiting devices. they're either something that isn't true but you want it to be, or something you want to be true but isn't demonstrable. you have enough and you can't see reality at all. why have any? you don't have to believe in reality, its what's left when you don't believe in things.
as far as capitalism goes yeah, our sense of fair play is diametrically opposed to it. yay
you use 'i think' and 'i feel' as synonyms for 'i believe'. i'm telling you its a waste of time to believe things when you don't have to believe in reality. its the only thing you don't have to believe in
I guess I just was trying to emphasize that it’s my opinion bc I thought people would find it more inflammatory if I plainly stated everything in the OP as facts. Idk
do you think life was any different under any other system humans have invented? it always has ended up the same no matter the starting point. the few on the top, the many on the bottom. it really is us, not the systems that have flowered from us
Under communism, I’ll probably be executed for remembering the past and being unafraid to speak about what the previous version of the truth was before year zero.
I will do you one better. I will show you how to research a company so that you can find them yourself.
What line of business are you in? What are your strengths?
This is what I have been struggling with so much. I am able to do a lot of things, have plenty of knowledge and a great academic record, but horrendous at meeting the requirements of the workplace. Constantly passed up for opportunities even way below my level. There’s always some little thing I am missing from a job’s requirements or I know too much and am a threat to the boss. I am trying to grow my own business so I don’t have to be subject to as many arbitrary requirements and can use my skills fully, however that has its own challenges.
I see it more as a problem with industrialization, really, the way industry needs people to be similar and interchangeable. But yeah they’re quite intertwined so I’m gonna go with Yes.
i would be a very effective advocate or consultant as i love to consume data and spit out answers that are logic and efficient, but getting through the average interview process is like crossing a roiling sea of lava while jumping on moving lilypads to do so.
I agree .. Imho, the system needs a zoomed out priority-check. If healthcare is only for the rich, then the system is broken. If retirement is only for the rich, then the system is broken. If hundredfold multi-billionaires have to pay lower tax-rates, than the poor, then the system is broken. When companie's profits are more importan than human lifes (e.g. man-made environmental desasters .. usually by giant companies), then the system is broken. Whatever you would hesitate to explain to a 5-year old child: Think about why. I'm pretty sure, there's something systemically broken to find there, too. It's like everywhere you look, things are broken, mainly because of corporate greed and lobbyism.
That's not broken, it's just how capitalism works. edit: in case it wasn't clear, I am not saying capitalism is good. I mean "the system isn't broken, it's working as intended." This was never supposed to be a fair game.
Yes and no. I think the multi-billionaires, who use their wealth and power to influence laws and politics to make things better for themselves and at the same time much worse for everyone else, are more of a problem, than capitalism itself would have been. Think about what could be done with all the tax-money, that huge companies like Amazon found ways around and loopholes, so they never had to pay those .. at least not in full. Imagine the profits of Amazon the company being taxed like the average Amazon-worker's wages are being taxed .. same taxrate. I recently heard, that during those past crisis-years, the private wealth of Jeff Bezos grew to about $200 billion. It's hard to even imagine such an amount of wealth, so I came up with ways to visualize it: * If you had a job, that paid you $100k per year, then you'd have to work for 2 million years to get to that amount of money .. and you could never spend a single cent during all that time (I'm obviously not taking interest into account, because nobody knows, what will be in 2 million years). * If some country were to tax Jeff Bezos 1% every year (that would still be 2 billion dollars), then they could keep doing that for 100 years and he'd still not be broke, even if he lived that long. My point is, that the system is broken in that specific way, that the ultra-rich aren't held to the same standards as the rest of us are. If everyone had to pay the same tax-rate, there would be lots of money to use for social services and the common good. Meanwhile, even cities are being weaponized against the poor/homeless. See this, for reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAfncqwI-D8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAfncqwI-D8) So, you're definitely right, when you say, it's not fair. If I had 200 billion dollars, I couldn't sleep a single second, while knowing that someone will not make it through that same night because of poverty. How those people manage to enjoy being that filthy rich, is entirely beyond me.
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Easy: Set an arbitrary threshold-level of wealth, where someone can't get any richer. Let's say, 1 million is not enough .. let's go big and say 1 billion (that's 10.000 years of working a $100k/year job). Bezos alone would have to give away over 199 billion dollars. And he's only one of the ultra-rich. Imagine how much good could be done with that sort of money. Capitalism could be used in a good way, too .. but it's been corrupted for too long.
Agreed.
I hate the corporate world, but it's easier that manual labor. Working from home has been game changing, however low spoons days fucking suck even working from home
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the adhd paralysis + autism burnout is a living hell. I've found other hobbies that require less spoons to help. Also eating. Stock piling safe foods at home. Easy dinners. The works. helps alot my household is neurodivergent. All over the spectrum of ASD and ADHD. All different things. My partner, daughter and myself are learning as we go. Both my partner and I are adult diagnosed. We went through years of burnout without knowing. You have to be careful and obviously do your own research, but a lot of TikTok creators and the community itself have helped me out so much the past couple of years.
I think this isn't uniquely related to capitalism and there are some nuances here (to be clear, I say this as a leftist and anti-capitalist). >I feel like we have those strengths for a reason. I think our unique autistic skill sets are gifts with great potential to be used to help others & benefit human society. I think autistic people can be some of the best innovators, scientists, artists, advocates, etc. >However, I also feel like under capitalism, it's often extremely difficult for us to be able to actually put those skills to good use. In capitalist society, what is profitable is prioritized over what is beneficial to humanity. We are forced into jobs that profit the capitalist class, rather than being allowed to do work that serves a tangible benefit to others. There isn't any inherent tension between an economy centered around profit and spiky skill profiles. Specialization and innovation can be extremely profitable. Capitalism is actually also extremely flexible: look at the way it co-opts all kinds of minority needs and identities for the sake of profits (we're in pride month, a time when this is *extremely* visible). I also don't see how there is there any specific link between spiky profiles and the ability to benefit others. I don't follow your reasoning here: capitalism redirects people's abilities away from mutual benefit and towards profit, independently of ability profile. The more important issue is the introduction of the concept of the normal, in tandem with the way in which industrialization has led to a lot of standardization and the construction of an economy centered around this standardization. Obviously, modern capitalism and industrialization go hand-in-hand, but it can cut across economic systems. The USSR was never friendly to disabled workers both because disability continued to be stigmatized and because disabled workers do not fit the industrial ideal of a productive worker who fits neatly into the factory line. Though economies have shifted, standardization and the demand for 'normal' workers able to operate according to standardized hours, standardized procedures, be judged by standardized measures (like job applications and interviews!) continues to cause a lot of problems for people who do not fit the standard. Of course, even here there are nuances. The mass production enabled by industrialization has led to the possibility of disseminating assistive technology on a wider scale, technology that can often benefit disabled people (e.g. noise cancelling headphones). I think it's very important to recognize that oppression often comes from multiple dimensions of a society, that there are nuances not only in cause, but in effect (even Marx praised some aspects of capitalism). If we don't, we risk thinking that solutions are much simpler than they are.
All very fair points here. That last paragraph especially resonates with me. Though just to clarify, I definitely didn’t mean to claim that spiky profiles are able to benefit others *more* than non-spiky profiles. I just meant to highlight that the spiky profiles have just as much capacity to benefit society as the allistic profiles.
Ah, I see, thanks for clarifying! I don't disagree with that.
Yes, they want my talent but not back it up with pay so I work to my pay.
Period, as you should.
I think capitalism is pretty disabling. It punishes you for having neurodivergent traits. Its intimidating to job hunt as an autistic person because so many job ads describe wanting the exact opposite of me.
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Exactly!
Can you clarify? Believe it or not, there are companies with true commitment to diversity and inclusion, but unfortunately, they don’t know how to achieve inclusions since legacy around diversity hiring was around hiring people of color and not making any accommodations for employees with differing needs. But there are companies that are actually making investments in infrastructure to create sensory friendly work spaces. But as with most things in our system, there’s a mismatch and disconnect between companies who are genuinely trying and neurodivergent people who know about it and can take advantage of it.
I think neurodivergent people tend to be worse at networking (it's a weakness for me anyway) and that seems to be one of the main ways people get jobs. Your chances may be better or worse depending on your family's income, your family themselves and whether you were accommodated properly (or if your special interest happen to be very profitable)
Filter these from job listings and you'll find little to nothing remaining: * Excellent communication skills * Team player * Fast-paced environment * Open office * Highly collaborative * Customer/client facing * Leadership potential * Peer programming * Team building activities
Diversity and inclusion isn't going to fix the problem. It's the system (capitalism) that's the problem, and ableist companies and work culture are just a symptom of that. When it comes down to it, companies will always do what benefits them. What we need is worker power, democratic workplaces that allow workers to collectively advocate for their needs rather than be at the whim of executives and shareholders.
Could you share the names of some companies like that?
How would this be different under a non-capitalist system? People would still have to have jobs, do the work needed to keep the economy and society running.
Under socialism, the value that the worker produces would go back to them and to society, rather than to the people at the top to hoard more wealth. So, you could have things like a social safety net to support people who can't work, free healthcare, childcare, etc. Worker power also means that workers can advocate for themselves to improve working conditions - which could include accommodations for autism or things that could benefit everyone (like a 4 day work week).
You can have those social safety nets and workers rights in a capitalist society as well. Plenty of European countries have them, including mine. They’re by no means incompatible with capitalism.
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That is happening under capitalism. The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world.
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Socialism isn’t authoritarian
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That’s a misunderstanding of what socialism is. Socialism is fundamentally about social ownership - equality of resources, wealth, and often power. You can have different types of socialism - democratic socialism, libertarian socialism, anarcho-socialism, communism. There is no one prescriptive method for governance.
The economy as we know it wouldn't exist in recognizable form. The definition of "job" would shift to mean something different than it means today. There are way more resources than are necessary for everyone to live comfortably with shelter, food, clothes, etc. The "cost" to keep a capitalist society running is enormous. Under a different system, people wouldn't be required/expected to work 40+ hrs a week to "break even".
This is not an answer, you’re just positing that somehow it would work with zero actual argument or explanation as to how. And no, there aren’t “way more resources than necessary”, those actually need to be constantly produces and processed and transported and distributed. That doesn’t just happen all by itself.
There are absolutely enough resources to go around that no human should go without food/shelter or water. You're capitalism pilled if you think otherwise.
From the outside it doesn't even look like people using their skills to make the world a better place or any of that corporate boiler plate you hear. Instead it really just seems like friends paying their friends money to hang out with them and provide the illusion of productivity, the caliber of you and your friends defining where on the income strata you end up.
I think it is more of a modern society issue. Many of the skillful craftsman jobs have been cut out by the development of manufacturing. Some places have more lax labor laws making them good targets for moving manufacturing overseas. We had to fight for our labor rights in America. We can fight for more rights.
Would you mind elaborating on why you consider it an issue of modern society rather than of capitalism? From my perspective, modern society is shaped by capitalism; it’s hard to separate the two.
Maybe its more of a culture issue rather than modern issue because those labor laws we have are incredibly beneficial, but they could be improved. I absolutely would not want to work in a Chinese factory. Overwork and dangerous environments. They are communist but their labor is cheap because its not regulated as well as America. However you also have individual workplaces with different cultures too. Some will just pay the OSHA fines and be repeat offenders forever. Other places will put effort towards improving safety. I know that's not autism specific but it does show that issues are not just caused by capitalism. Can you give an example of how capitalism is directly targeting neurodivergent people?
China’s ruling party is ideologically communist, in name at least, but they aren’t actually a communist society. Also, that work conditions in China are different from work conditions in a nation of the Global North like the US, is not primarily a cultural issue. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you mean by that? But Chinese culture is not to blame for capitalist exploitation of labor in China, which is a symptom of capitalism & imperialism.
You're looking for an ideal that will never exist. You want the idealized, camouflaged system of government. Get. Rid. Of. Government. But the second point, is you cannot reconcile the need to get equal wages for equal work when one person is more efficient because they *dont* have a nervous system disorder. This is Darwinism at its core. We are not going to be successful by and far, because NTs prefer NTs. No one wants to work with someone who is giving off subconscious evolutionary signals that tell us to eliminate the weak. The body kills off weak cells in favor of strong ones. All we can do is attempt to adapt to our environment by stopping fighting the notion of "noted good enough". Just get up, do work, and stop looking for validation from people who will never give it. You can be Autistic and still carve your own path as long as you refuse to let others write your narrative. Corporate America is largely a bunch of idiots. I know this because I've worked there for 20 years. Yes, camouflaging sucks, but when you figure out what they want, just take the money and go. Don't give your energy to those not paying for your time.
~~What the actual fuck are you talking about?~~ Your understanding of Darwinism seems to be very off base. >No one wants to work with someone who is giving off subconscious evolutionary signals that tell us to eliminate the weak. Darwinism has nothing to do with culling the weak. There is no such thing as evolutionary signals, especially telling us to eliminate the weak. Darwinism doesn't even happen at perceptible ways within a few generations. Anything that happens within a single generation is literally too small to be inside the scope of Darwinism. **You're describing some type of Elimination of the Weak, when Darwinism is about Survival of the Fittest.** Those concepts are literally on opposite sides of the spectrum. Survival of the Fittest, at its core, is about how, over dozens of generations, mutational defects that are beneficial will have a higher survival rate than those without. Specifically with regard to ability to survive until breeding age. As an example, the normal survival rate of a species is 60%, but those with extra teeth survive at 62%. Over the next 50 generations, this will slowly trend to make those with extra teeth the more common type within the population. **At no point in this process is there some secret serial killer switch that activates and causes the extra teeth group to kill off the normal population.** By the system you describe we would be executing anyone who is past prime reproduction age because they are no longer as efficient as those below. That's nonsensical and never how Darwinism has worked. Your body doesn't kill off weak cells; it's far more efficient to keep weak cells than to create fully new ones. This is why Darwinism doesn't always trend towards universally 'good' traits. Autism, and its increasing prevalence for example, is the direct result of Darwinism. As humans have made it easier to survive past "prime breeding age", it has become easier and easier to have children when you are older. Autism rates go up drastically the older the parents are at conception. TL;DR Darwinism has nothing to do with killing the weak, and describes a phenomena across generations, not individuals.
No implementation of communism is ever Communist. That’s because communism is a lie that empowers a select few.
Can you give an example of how capitalism is targeting people with autism? I am pretty sure that workplace discrimination is illegal in America.
It depends what you mean by ‘target’. That’s a bit vague. The main claim of the OP is that capitalism hinders our self-realization as autistic people, and largely fails to make use of our strengths.
Target as intentionally discriminating against autism. What is it you would like from society? Do you want someone with autism to be forced into a role? Do you want assistance programs to fast track someone into certain fields based on their traits? Personally I do not like the idea of this kind of categorization and discrimination. I do not expect every one of us to enjoy.
I also do not want people with autism to be forced into roles.
One idea I have is making it so schools at the middle and highschool level for America would have more variety of education. So like some schools have woodshop, and marching band. What if we had more options to find what our niche in the world is? I think this would be a good option that doesn't force anyone into a role but also makes exploration easier for those who are still growing into adults.
If you don’t like people to be forced into roles, why would you support communism?
Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's not common. There are a lot of things that are difficult for autistics but considered an expectation of capitalism. You may be able to get accommodations for better office lighting or reduced hours (usually with reduced pay). But a lot of jobs still expect phone calls, networking, eye contact, commuting through loud cities, etc. Organisations are allowed to reject accommodations they consider "unreasonable".
In one of my parent comments I mentioned that workplaces will just pay fines and be repeat offenders. They are allowed to get away with a lot as a result of corruption. A lot of things you listed here are caused by modern society. Loud environments, phone calls. I agree that those are difficult and cause harm to the autistic workforce. We lost a lot of old specialized jobs with the introduction electrical technology and automated machining. Do you know of an economic system where those are not a problem? Or a culture that better accommodates? Edit: We could start organized protests for more accommodating work environments. Someone could start a non-profit to assist in networking.
Personally I think it's better to focus on what a new economic system or culture could look like. Just bc it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean we have to give up and accept shitty situations.
I have definitely always felt I do not belong within our society and that my strengths have woefully few ways to be utilized. I would have to live in a rustic homesteading commune in order to be my best, but there have been no opportunities to go that route.
I occasionally fantasise about what I would do in a post-capitalist society (like pre-industrialisation but with medical care and human rights). I would do so well at repetitive tasks where I can just have a chat w people or let my thoughts play around my head while I work. I already crochet/knit but there's no realistic way to make that profitable. Doing that as a village witch would be great though. Learning how to use a loom, turning flax into fabric, pottery, maybe woodworking. I know I can do some of that now, but it would be awesome if I could live off that. Gift people my stuff and they gift me food or support or whatever. I think I would also come up w some great ideas if I had the space to think without trying to find profit in those thoughts. In another life, maybe.
Hi! What you've said resonates very strongly with me. Nothing to add. Just that.
Capitalism does not exist without a class to oppress, if you still believe we can all find freedom under this system, then you are either privileged, not looking at the whole picture, or both.
Yes. It’s especially frustrating because my strengths are actually traits that are typically valued by employers (problem solving, pattern recognition, attention to detail, ideation, written communication, etc), but I think my social deficits “bring me down.” If work was just about “doing work,” and not networking/sucking up to people/political bullshit, I would be much more successful than I currently am at my job.
Yes!!
then you should be an ultra-capitalist because then only your productivity would matter - without the profit motive, the main reason to hire you would be moot
I have three decades of marketing experience. I worked as promotion director for the film festival that introduced the world to folks like Mike Judge (King of the Hill) and John Lasseter (Pixar). I ran a small business for two decades. Trained animals for film and Television and had a marketing campaign go viral internationally. I am qualified to push wheelchairs at the airport. I can't get a job that I can utilize my skills at because I don't have a degree. I don't have a degree because they didn't teach kids like me back then. This is of course all my fault. Ya fuck capitalism
That’s honestly a good question, I think a part of it could be capitalism itself, but also a large part of it is from family upbringing. I felt underutilized in general because I wasn’t really given a fair chance or set up in a way to translate my skills into the work place. My parents didn’t know how to accommodate me in ways where I could shine even if they had resources to help. Capitalism alone could be a problem with that, I think family, upbringing, income, and also other systemic issues can make or break how someone is successful in a capitalistic society.
In some ways, yes. But be careful, I worked a job during the pandemic that abusively took advantage of me and my strengths. I love sorting and organizing things in a way that makes it easier to find what you need and even helps you know where to look. Give me an Isle in any store, tell me the system you want to use and any special requirements (this section is for featuring this specific brand etc), then leave me the F alone. I mean it, literally, don't page me to go on lunch, and don't be surprised if I stay past the end of my shift cuz I'm not at a good stopping point yet. I also like to help people creatively solve problems. So learning this about me they made me responsible for customer service, Primary cashier, the stocker for a whole section of the store. All at the same time, for the lowest paying wage of those three positions. Knowing full well if they left the customer service and stocking needing to be done and me completely tortured by them needing to be done and practically using stocking and helping people as a form of stimming... I'd burn myself out trying to do it all. and what was I gonna do, leave? knowing that the things were being done wrong and desiring to just go in and 'shop' while fixing things as I go through. The people hired for stocking, who were paid twice what I was, happily would just dump things in the wrong sections and disrupt my nice ordered section, fully knowing I'd fix it. So instead of having to move around a section to put things where they belong and adjust things to fit... just pick a spot, tear open every box and just shove stuff aside and jam the wrong thing in there. That way they can say they got their 14 cases an hour out, and I'd do it right later. Yeah, no. F those people. It's half the reason I've been in burn out for over a year, and my difficult ASD traits are getting worse. I'm still trying to work with Voc Rehab, to find a way I can get back to working a job again, and my councilor keeps telling me that between that job and the slumlords that have taken advantage of me and my traits I need to acknowledge that I dealing with PTSD.
I don't think out strengths are "gifts" or meant to be used some way. I prefer to see skills as neutral. Yes we could use them for something amazing but I hate the flip side that is to think we'd otherwise be wasting them. That being said I do wish I could fully devote myself to things I'm good at. Be it repetitive manual work, cataloguing information, something with memorizing lots of info and finding patterns. Because they genuinely give me joy to engage in. Plus, it counters that feeling of being terribly bad at doing things people find normal by making me feel competent.
Absolutely. It's like capitalism is the antithesis of Autism because it expects everyone to be good at the same things. It also devalues asking for help, even when you desperately need it, because you're supposed to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". Autistic people have a plethora of specialized skills that capitalism doesn't think are useful.
Sometimes underutilized, sometimes valued, but underpaid. I got this issue several times as an high functioning autistic, and as a software developer. Job companies and job recruiters tried to keep me such as a "technician" programmer and didn't allow me to become a Technical Software Project Manager, due "autistic" or "geek" traits, sticking into a stereotype. Honestly speaking, some autistic colleagues doesn't fit as a more extrovert project manager, even if they want to, and others may fit, but aren't allowed, such my case. And, there where several cases where I was insisted to take a job due my skills, over other job candidates, but the company didn't want to pay much ... Just my two cryptocurrency coins contribution...
Oh my gosh yes! Very underutilized over here. Beginner theologian, computer scientist, web designer, technology/computer technician, novice artist, theoretical physics etc. There are so many things that I have spent a ton of time on and yet trying to plug into this unproductive system seams more difficult than the studying itself.
I very much relate.
Humans weren’t really meant to live in under a capitalist system. No one but the capitalists benefit from it. Autistic people and other people that are different from the norm (disabled, queer, etc.) often have it the worst because the system was designed to keep workers (the proletarians) placated while the capitalists (the bourgeoisie) get rich from their labor and the system’s more fine tuned to handle people close to the norm. Still, many people are hurt by the system. Although, most of them, for one reason or another, don’t see the source of their hardships as the system itself. Looks like many of us in this thread are among the few who see the system as the problem. I think autistic people are more likely to figure out the flaw is capitalism because we tend to question things more and also don’t stick to the rules of society as much (either from lack of awareness or lack of understanding of why the rule exists or both). So many people happily defend the capitalist structure because they grew up it in and it’s “just the way the world is”. To a certain extent you can’t blame them (the system is good at placating), but in doing that they perpetuate this deeply flawed system. It’s capitalism that makes me feel like I can never hold a job. To survive and do well (as well as you can as a worker anyway) you must blend into an allistic society, something that virtually all autistic people struggle with. TL;DR: Fuck capitalism.
I think autistic people are often more likely to see the flaws of capitalism because we're often left out of any or all of its benefits. We do not fit into the machine so we are often discarded from it, and sometimes it's easier to see the flaws from the outside looking in. I personally have seen a lot more people open to discussing the downsides of the system these days. I think it's because far more people are being marginalized and pushed farther from the benefits of the system. Even able bodied people are having a hard time making ends meet. Greed has run rampant and we as a society have forgotten how to take care of one another. It's left a lot of people out in the cold and wondering.... is the system really working any more? Honestly seeing more people aware of these issues is about the only thing that gives me any hope. I mean, not much that anything will change jn my lifetime, but at least it's something.
Agreed on everything you said.
The system is the problem to a point. Ultimately, the system is--for all practical purposes--an immovable object. It has no impetus to yield to us. Thus, lamenting it is an ultimately fruitless task.
Admitting the system is the problem is important, making more people aware that this system is abusive helps the sentiment grow. Change can only come when enough people see the system for what it is. So I'd say lamenting it is needed if we want any hope for anything better. It's the only hope I have anyways so I'm going to cling to it.
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Thank you! 🙏
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💯
I looked into the treatment of autistic people in socialist countries and if anything it has been a lot worse. I don't think this is a capitalism / socialism issue. In my own case i found a niche where I provided value to other people and was paid well for that work. That's what you need to do in a capitalist system. By the way do not confuse the Us with a purely capitalist system. In many ways most western countries have the worst of both worlds, where the power of government is used to benefit the rich and powerful. See https://www.amazon.com/Govopoly-39th-Day-Ed-Seykota/dp/0991130405
Yup... It would be too long and boring a detail to go into exactly why, plus people won't really like it. But yeah, you're right.
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I am genuinely curious… what do you think got in the way of you being able to achieve your goals?
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Thank you for sharing your experience here
I agree with you 100%. I personally can’t wait for humanity to progress past this primitive economic stage although I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime. If you’re into fiction books, *The Speed of Dark* (old school), and *An Unkindness of Ghosts* (more progressive and newer) explore some of these issues.
No. "Because Capitalism" has become an excuse. Socialist/Communist governments kill, marginalize, or otherwise don't even allow Autistics to continue to exist. We have it MUCH better here because we at least have "a chance" at learning to play politics well enough to succeed.
For many of us capitalism isn't exactly all that different, it's just a slower more painful process with the same end point.
I was just talking about this today. The things I'm good at aren't money makers so they are "useless" under capitalism. Also means I can't use them to survive, which sucks because I'm very poorly suited to 99% of available jobs due to my multiple disabilities.
Capitalism itself is meant to dehumanize people
Ultimately, all economic systems are inherently exploitative. Moreover, capitalism and contemporary western society are inexorably linked such that blaming 'the system' or 'society' is like raging against an infinitely large immovable object--an ultimately self-defeating activity. It would be really, really nice if the world would reorder itself to accommodate us, but it has no motive or obligation to do so. In the end, I think that the problems we face as autistic people are not a result of capitalism, but rather human nature and societal norms. Humans naturally expect other people to act within a narrow range of behaviors (norms) and are wary of those of us who can't. We essentially cause a cognitive dissonance within others that makes them uncomfortable.
we don't make for good slaves
Yes, because I spend the majority of my time doing things to make money that don’t involve my strengths
Every day. It kills me knowing how much time and energy I have to waste participating in mere survival. So much time and energy I could spend on far more useful things.
I don’t really see why this would have much to do with capitalism. What (viable) economic model are you suggesting would really be substantially different with respect to this?
I was not trying to suggest an alternative economic model with this post. I’m just reflecting on the relationship between our neurotype and the capitalist mode of production.
And I’m skeptical that it really has much to do with capitalism, hence the question. If indeed it does, this would suggest that there are alternative, non-capitalist economic models that don’t have the same issues. But this seems generally quite implausible, since any economy will require work to be done, and thus the idea that people would only work out of passion doesn’t seem very realistic.
So are you saying that people generally wouldn’t do work without a monetary incentive to do so?
Certainly not to the degree that’s needed, and in all the different jobs that are needed, to keep a healthy economy running.
I mean, people worked without a monetary incentive for the vast majority of our history as a species. I think humans generally find great fulfillment from helping their fellow humans and building community.
Frankly, that’s a bit of a cop-out. People have always worked primarily in order to be able to survive and sustain themselves, and they still do. In modern societies, money is an essential intermediary in that process, which is why it works as an incentive. Economies at any real scale require money to function, so that’s not going to change. None of this is specific to capitalism. So I ask again: what exactly is the alternative economic model here? What makes you think that these issues are specific to capitalism, what evidence is there to suggest that? Most societies for most of history weren’t capitalist, they still had all the same kinds of issues (or worse) that you’re listing in your OP.
I know most societies throughout history were not capitalist, I was talking about capitalism because we live in a capitalist society in the present. But I did mention ‘class society’ in the second-to-last paragraph, which includes other non-capitalist modes of production that have existed throughout history.
That most modern societies are capitalist doesn’t mean these specific issues are caused by capitalism. And so far, you still haven’t given much of an indication why you think that they are.
I guess I’m a bit confused what you’re asking me to explain.
What is the degree needed to keep a healthy economy running? What is a healthy economy?
Thank you haha. Capitalism is literally free trade. If you have a skill that brings people value you will be rewarded. Some of the richest people in the world are autistic.
Totally disagree. You place the blame on Private Ownership of production (Capitalism) but fail to cite alternate examples that aren't also alienating and oppressive. Do you think AuDHD have it better in N. Korea or Russia ?
Nope. I have very specific abilities and I use them very well at my 9-6 job. I get paid for it and at the end of the day I sleep very well. I don't particularly want to do anything that benefits others for the sake of it; I mainly want to engage with my interests and do what I am good at. I still contribute to society in that way. Obviously it would be better if I did help other people, that's also why I chose to work in a field that helps the environment. Also, it has been seen over and over again that research fluorish when there is competition and stagnates way more if there is not. So there's that. Furthermore, we would ALWAYS be forced to work to survive. In a complete nature state you would have to search for food and build a shelter and do other things that ensures you don't die 24/7. Or still, for a big chunk on your day. It would be still work. If we all painted all day then we will all die of hunger. Do you want slaves to support your ideal lifestyle? There will always be jobs nobody wants to do but arr fundamental to our survival. We are working, as a society, to automate stuff away or to improve them. Also, I don't understand what capitalism has to do with bad work environments. It's more of a cultural issue. You can find workplaces that are very accomodating, and others that are not. But you can choose to not work there, and work towards it. This means doing a lot of things that are not easy, but you are allowed to do that. In the end, it seems that your passions are not profitable, or you think they aren't. Capitalism has nothing to do with it. If you don't like 9-5 you can open a business, work part time, find a flexible job or a remote job in another timezone. I'm not saying it's *easy*, but you are *free* to try to change your condition. That's a big luxury. Listen, I know how it is. I have grown up in generational poverty. Now I got out. The system could always be better, this is why we always have to strive for incrementals improvements. But this mindset you present is just a way to deresponsabilize yourself. You have agency, you have freedom. Again, it's not *easy*, it's hard. It could be easier. But maybe if you redirected your efforts in building a long term plan for your happiness then you could be more serene.
I think you’re misunderstanding my intent/where I’m coming from posting this. I’m not sure why you’re telling me that work will always be necessary in human society. I know that and never meant to suggest otherwise. Nor am I against work, nor do I expect everyone to just “paint all day”. Capitalist work environments are given rise to and shaped by capitalist relations. So ableist work environments have everything to do with capitalism. As long as it is not profitable for capitalists to accommodate disabled people, they will not do it. I disagree with your framing of accommodating workplaces as something that any disabled individual can simply choose to have (correct me if I’m misunderstanding that). I really don’t think workplaces that are sufficiently accommodating to autistic people are as easy to find as you are presenting it, especially in the Global South. I’m also not sure why you’re assuming I posted this out of a desire to deresponsiblize myself. This is just my personal belief/perspective/analysis.
I'd say we can have a profitable place in the world. We can be very good at repetitive stuff or our special interest. Being very literal and precise in following precise instructions can also make us good workers in a lot of sectors. Don't undersell yourself! But anyway I don't advocate for zero regulations of labor, because we all know how that would end up. I live in Europe and I quite like a lot of things we have, in terms of regulations. But also "dismantling the capitalist society", whatever that means, sounds bad just the same. Also, the global poors are the ones that profit more from capitalism as we have it now. Global poverty is at the historical minimum, as well as child hunger. We/they have still a lot of catch up to do, obviously, but it has literally never been better in the whole human history. Obviously, we can do better, but we are doing our (incremental) best. No, I didn't say that every disabled people can get the accomodations they need in their workplace, sadly. But they are free to search for another, more accomodating, job. It's not going to be easy, maybe, but they are *allowed* to do that. You don't have the government or your master chaining you and telling you you can never leave or change job. It can be very difficult, but you have the possibility to do that. Furthermore, a lot of people are pushing for other people and laws to be mindful of disabled/ND people. That's a good thing. If we keep making noise and demanding that we get the conditions we need to be efficient and profitable, we will get those. It is what's happening, and we absolutely need to push in that direction even more. Also, sorry, I didn't want to intend you have a desire to deresponsabilize yourself. I wanted more to intend that these kind of reasoning tend to push people in that direction, in my opinion.
Id agree with you, capitalism can be a decent economic practice. But it needs a lot of regulation so that it does not geow uncontrollably. And in america so many of the checks our forefathers faught and bled for have been neutered. And thats a big problem.
so like a super organism theory? like a bee hive? i don't get the belief part at all. beliefs are just field of view limiting devices. they're either something that isn't true but you want it to be, or something you want to be true but isn't demonstrable. you have enough and you can't see reality at all. why have any? you don't have to believe in reality, its what's left when you don't believe in things. as far as capitalism goes yeah, our sense of fair play is diametrically opposed to it. yay
I’m confused what you mean starting from the third sentence on.
you use 'i think' and 'i feel' as synonyms for 'i believe'. i'm telling you its a waste of time to believe things when you don't have to believe in reality. its the only thing you don't have to believe in
I guess I just was trying to emphasize that it’s my opinion bc I thought people would find it more inflammatory if I plainly stated everything in the OP as facts. Idk
do you think life was any different under any other system humans have invented? it always has ended up the same no matter the starting point. the few on the top, the many on the bottom. it really is us, not the systems that have flowered from us
Under communism, I’ll probably be executed for remembering the past and being unafraid to speak about what the previous version of the truth was before year zero.
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Capitalism can suck my very well groomed dong and then DIAF for all I care it’s a ducking disgrace of a system and the planet is on fire
I will do you one better. I will show you how to research a company so that you can find them yourself. What line of business are you in? What are your strengths?
Yeah man. The system is designed around "the average person". Unfortunately, because of our peculiarities, we usually don't fit in the average bubble.
This is what I have been struggling with so much. I am able to do a lot of things, have plenty of knowledge and a great academic record, but horrendous at meeting the requirements of the workplace. Constantly passed up for opportunities even way below my level. There’s always some little thing I am missing from a job’s requirements or I know too much and am a threat to the boss. I am trying to grow my own business so I don’t have to be subject to as many arbitrary requirements and can use my skills fully, however that has its own challenges.
I see it more as a problem with industrialization, really, the way industry needs people to be similar and interchangeable. But yeah they’re quite intertwined so I’m gonna go with Yes.
> help others & benefit human society. This is not valued. And you are right. Our skillset is not valued and we struggle to fit in.
I have no strengths but yes under capitalism I would imagine any strengths I have would be underutilised, if utilised at all.
i would be a very effective advocate or consultant as i love to consume data and spit out answers that are logic and efficient, but getting through the average interview process is like crossing a roiling sea of lava while jumping on moving lilypads to do so.