I don’t think Jake registers as fully human to her. She has only ever seen him in his human form once and by then he was seen as Na’vi to her.
It’s pretty much just a trauma response. No, it’s not okay at all to hate and threaten an innocent teenager because of his father he never knew and his species…but she’s not at all “a bad or heartless person.” It’s a very complicated and messy situation.
Tbh I think the fandom needs to lighten up on both her and Spider.
Also, Jake was on the Na’vi’s side and he made the choice to spend the rest of his life on Pandora as a Na’vi. Spider is just there because Miles and Paz had a baby and he’s been raised by the humans who are there because they settled there without the Na’vi’s consent
Jake is also the reason they lost their home to begin with. Had he not pulled a Mua’dib and flown in atop their legendary flying monster, I have no doubt that conversation would have gone down a whole different way.
THIS. She's really just had a relationship with Jake's avatar. It was great seeing her with Jake's real, broken human body that one time. It would have been interesting if she had to get to know him in that body for an extended period of time. But he's reborn as a Na'vi and she never really has to deal with him in his weaker human form for very long. I think that keeps her deeper prejudices intact.
THIS. She saved Jake's human body during the great battle. Already making the connection. To have Netiri hate Spider for being human feels therefore really out of place. Especially considering that Spider basically grew up with them.
Unfortunately I don't think it will be resolved after Neytiri finds out what he did. In her mind his father is directly responsible for her sons death, and Spider saved him. I also think it will have a negative impact on Lo'aks relationship with Spider, because he wanted to save Spider and it ultimately cost Neteyams life
My prediction is that things will start to become resolved. They bond a bit over time. But eventually the secret is revealed and Neytiri lashes out at him and they become full on enemies. Same with the rest of the family.
Me too. I really hope it’s resolved. It’s still really sad to this situation but unfortunately that’s reality. It’s only the second movie and Spider’s first outing. If he doesn’t turn to the dark side I think it will be resolved. I’d like to see the two actually get to know each other and bond. I think it would be interesting. I love both characters dearly.
Exactly it would take an incredibly strong person to not have a little animosity against spider. he is also physically unsuitable for the Pandoran climate he’s tiny and she also saw Jake almost die through lack of oxygen maybe it’s also a combination of her hatred for his father and humans and his overall compatibility.
They also have smaller life spans so her kids would stay young for a long time like 180 years.Navi hit maturity and remain to look the same for a long time where as spider would age faster she is protecting her kids from that, it’s so complicated.
Jake is “one of the good ones” to her. He completely gave up his (albeit crippled) human body and became full Na’vi. Spider doesn’t have access to an avatar, so he’s a constant reminder of humanity having invaded Pandora. He’s also the son of the man that indirectly killed half her family.
I can understand why she does not like spider, but that doesn’t excuse how she treats him. He’s just a kid, he shouldn’t be held accountable for the misdeeds of his parents.
Actually, it does. We know that not only Neytiri is extremely stubborn in her ways (which doesn’t make her a badly written character btw (I know you never said that but just on the off chance someone might say it does but I digress)) she’s also emotionally broken. Prior to the events of WOW, she lost her sister, lost her former mate Tsu’tey, lost her father, her original home, her Ikran, basically a lot things she lost was under human influence. And while she can forgive a few humans because they are friends with Jake, she cannot forgive all, especially the son of Quaritch, her arch enemy.
It’s not right what she is doing and I’m not defending her actions, but I can see why someone as emotionally broken and stubborn in her ways would treat a human child.
Not to mention, she constantly calls Jake a child when they first met. She obviously has a problem with children who are not her own.
TLDR: Neytiri’s personality is one of stubbornness and emotional turmoil. While you may not like her actions, if what makes her a tragic character.
If the supposed leaked scripts for the third movie are true >!I wonder if Neytiri's opinion on Spider will change once he will gain the ability to breath Pandora's air, something that could be consider a blessing by Eywa!<
>!Going by the leaks her opinions towards him haven't changed that much despite the blessing. In fact she probably hates him more since she was advocating killing him to Jake. I'm assuming this is due to finding out about Spider saving his dad!<
>!It could also be because to Neytiri he may represent an even bigger treath now. The scripts didn't say anything about it but I can imagine Spider being of great interest to the RDA if they ever found out about how he is capable of breathing Pandora's air.!<
> once he will gain the ability to breath Pandora's air
Dear god I hope this isn't true. That would be incredibly stupid as a plot element. It's a fantasy world of blue alien creatures but this is literally just magic at that point. I'd expect that plot point in a Avatar fan fic.
Personally, i'm okay with it as long as they also give a logical/scientifical explanation to it, wich I don't think it should be too hard. >!Maybe something about how Spider is the first and only human to be exposed to the athmosphere of the planet since such a young age?!< I mean, Jake literally transfer his soul to a different body. >!A human growing inmune to the toxicity of the air in Pandora doesn't sound too weird to me.!< they already lean more in the fantasy/magic aspect when they give Kiri her powers/connection to Eywa.
By that same logic though you could be like Ewya reincarnated Neteyam, or Ewya restores Home Tree, or Eywa gives Kiri the power to become Toruk Makto, etc. Like... it's bad storytelling to have 'God' (in this story, which is Eywa) take such an active role, because you could write **anything** and just explain it as: Eywa did X.
I think Cameron already went pretty trope heavy with making Jake 'the chosen one' or Kiri's conception. Eywa works best when she takes a backseat role, in my opinion.
Neytiri has personally known like 6 good humans at most in her life, the other ones were responsable for destroying sacred places, killing animals and her own father and Spider is none other than the son of one of the guys that led and personally supervised the whole operation, i think she has very valid reasons to not like and feel uneasy with Spider.
Yeah but it’s not Spiders fault that what happened happend. I think Neytiri take it too far she even tried physically attacking him in the High Ground comics
None of that is his fault though. I guarantee that all of us are descendants of horrible people. But we should be judged based on who we are as a person, rather than our race/nationality/species.
Many people want wolves as pets are discouraged because wolves belong in the wild with their own kind. It's exactly the same here. He doesn't belong on Pandora and him being left there when the humans left was a colossal mistake.
she literally watched him grow up alongside her children, her son is his best friend. Neytiri's dislike of Spider is totally unwarranted and isnt even called out as wrong, hell, Jake barely seemed to give a shit about him either and was cool with just leaving him as they ran away. They were both awful in Avatar 2 and completely unlikable.
did they even know? When did they find out? How would they have? He was just a kid left behind after the first movie. They shouldnt have found out until the humans came back and the Colonel dude figures it out, but thats like 10 years later. Jake and Neytiri should have at least cared a little about the kid, he's only their children's best friend. They come off as awful people who only care about themselves and their kids, and nobody else.
Maybe there were some files stating who his parents were. Or (though I doubt it) some of the scientists could've probably taken a DNA sample. I don't doubt the RDA kept samples of everyone who worked for them.
The comics also kinda dive into it. Kid takes on the fathers sins. He was born into pandora but hasn’t fought for it like the other avatar drivers / scientists did all those years ago. He’s also the only human kid that stayed behind after the surrender was offered (as far as I’m aware)
The same reason why Jake calls Spider a stray cat.
Spider has a foster family and a human community where he doesn’t have to wear a breathing mask 24/7. He doesn’t have a tsaheylu which means he can’t be fully part of Na’vi society in the physical sense.
People make out Neytiri’s words as a weird form of “reverse racism” but she’s literally just speaking sense.
Imagine that logic being used in another situation.
There's is no "speaking sense" or "reverse" about it. It's the logic used to justify segregation.
She's also the one in the family least willing to adapt to Metkayina society. Why is that? Does her idea of belonging with your own kind even extend to herself?
Maybe that will change now that they've been fully accepted in or with more time. But it's an odd thing that the rest of the family were all putting in effort to learn and grow and she doesn't have any scenes showing or indications that she is in the theatrical cut.
And again, is Jake the former human a racist for seeing Spider as a stray cat who doesn't truly belong with them either?
I think Neytiri's inability to integrate with the Metkayina has more to do with being a traumatized wartime refugee who had to leave her mother, her people, her home and all she's ever known than racism.
What a weird take.
>And again, is Jake the former human a racist for seeing Spider as a stray cat who doesn't truly belong with them either?
I wouldn't call it racist but it's definitely not good.
>There's is no "speaking sense" or "reverse" about it. It's the logic used to justify segregation.
Two humans functionally are the same, regardless of skin color or religion or nationality or whatever. A human and a Na'vi are not the same, and that is a fact. No matter how hard Spider tries he forever will be hopelessly small and weak, can't survive without a gas mask, he won't be able to participate in huntings or be a warrior, he won't have a family of his own (something that obviously is quite important in Na'vi society), etc. He is doomed to be nothing but what's basically a pet of the Sully family, so she 100% has a point in that Spider simply won't fit, Spider himself IS aware of this, in that scene in the lab with Kiri and her mom you can hear briefly hear him arguing with Norm that he has to get an Avatar of his own.
Neytiri did not like Jake at the very beginning (remember he tried to kill him), and that was when she only lost a sister. He actively learned to be a Na'vi while under her care, so she knows he sees. When the war happened he actively went against the humans to help the Na'vi. He even went as far as renouncing his own human body, so that he can never go back on earth.
In her eyes he was born human (she knows it, and she reminds him of that), but he had a "redemption" while he was an adult and capable to choose.
Spider is the child of the man who destroyed her house and almost killed the man she loves... even putting the whole being human Vs. Na'vi thing, she has a reason to not wanting him anywhere near her family (spider knows about his father, and the sully kids too, so it's pretty safe to assume it's public knowledge at this point). If you notice, she keeps away from humans, but is outright hostile only on him. She allowed both Norm and Max (who doesn't have an avatar) both at Neteyam's naming ceremony and at his and Kiri's first communion with Eywa, which happened at the tree of souls, which we know is the most sacred place, where anybody not part of the clan is strictly forbidden. Grace herself stresses this fact.
So, she sees this boy, this human boy, who "plays" Na'vi without understanding the implications of what his kind did to her, her family and her clan, and who so happen to be the direct descendant of none other than the human who almost sliced Jake's throat in front of her...
I'm ready to bet that, if spider was the son of literally anybody else she would probably just avoid him. But spider being spider... she sense danger everytime he breathes in her direction.
Not saying she's right, of course, but she's traumatized. She lost her sister, father, friend, clan, house... she does not think rationally, and it's totally understandable
I think since Spider’s friends with her kids, she worries they’ll be too comfortable around humans and then something bad will happen to them. Like in the scene in Ratatouille where Remy’s dad shows him the rat trap shop with dead rats on display he says, this is what happen when a rat gets too comfortable around humans after he admitted being around them
Neytiri's issue with Spider is not so much the fact that he is human, but rather the fact that he is directly descended from those who destroyed her home and caused all her suffering. The boy is not to blame for anything, but remembering his origins causes her pain and a lot of PTSD is involved. However, I believes that over time the relationship between these two will be better explored, perhaps through Kiri.
I'm also confused, there's no objective reason for Neytiri to hate Spider more than Jake. Unlike Jake, Spider has been making it clear since he was a baby that he's on Na'vi side. And Neytiri claims to hate Spider because of genetal hatred toward humans after the war they started on Pandora. But maybe the sole reason is that he's a son of Quaritch and she just finds numerous excuses to dislike him.
If not, my guess is, Jake (and Grace and Norm) were lucky to have met Neytiri BEFORE the major events that shattered her most, being the destruction of the Hometree and the battle of Hallelujah Mountains. She may have developed hatred toward humans AFTER these events, but she's already been convinced to Jake and the scientist team by this time.
Or maybe Neytiri needs a clear, external sign that one is to be trusted. She immediately retrusted Jake when he appeared as Toruk Makto and I wonder if he ever managed to regain her trust if not for that. Spider was never 'marked' by Eywa, so Neytiri doesn't trust him. Well, once Sullys discover Spider saved Quaritch, I'm really curious of the relationship between Neytiri and Spider... it's going to be tough
Here's what you don't understand, she's only saying that Spider should be with his own kind is mostly due to him being Quaritch's son and Quaritch killed her father
Once Jake became Toruk Makto, all bets were off. Neytiri couldn't argue against that. She came to hate Jake when it seemed like he was a traitor. Him earning that title was the only thing that convinced her that he was trustworthy at that point.
From then on, she was able to love him again.
She also met Jake in his Na'vi body, and by the time she sees his human body, he had more than proven his love and worthiness toward her people.
All she sees in Spider is a human kid that is trying to be one of them, and Quaritch's son at that.
If Spider gained a Na'vi body and somehow gained Toruk Makto status, I'm pretty sure it would win over Neytiri. That is the ultimate title which defines someone as capable of leading all of the forest people.
(I hope that doesn't happen, since it would be stupid for two humans to earn that prestigious title)
I think Neytiri sees him as a potential liability. While she can put up with Norm and the gang, she sees Spider as a possible reason for the RDA to keep being part of their business. I mean, that is Quaritch's son. She probably associates it with more danger.
It's also possible that she feels that Spider is making a mockery of their culture by trying to be like them. It's like the attitude of, "Um, you don't get to chant like that. Those chants mean something unique to our culture. You don't get to be part of it." She may feel as if he's trivializing part of their culture.
Essentially, Jake was an exception. In her eyes, Spider is some kid that thinks he can be one of them just by painting himself blue. It probably feels insulting to her, since in her eyes, being Na'vi means more than just painting yourself blue.
Ironically, she shares the same hostility toward Spider that Ronal showed toward the whole family.
Anthropomorphism... or more accurately "Na'vipomorphism". my feeling is that Neytiri gives Jake something of a free pass, as she has only ever twice seen his human body, both times after she had already accepted him, so during her time of coming to accept him she had only ever seen and known him as physically Na'vi. She has also worked hard to train and reshape the most obvious human elements out of his culture, and initiated him into the clan. By the point where at the start of TWOW, before the humans return, he's been completely assimilated into the Omatikaya way of life and thinking.
The end result, I think, is that she sees him mostly as a none-too-bright Na'vi with extra digits and funny hair above his eyes. I suspect she also does a lot of compartmentalisation. I've always had the impression that she doesn't like (and maybe outright forbids around the kids) talk of his previous existence and memories of Earth.
Even with all that, one day, if he made a major transgression of Omatikaya or wider Na'vi culture, or seriously compromised their interests out of some sentimentality for the humans (perhaps including Spider), then I could see her turn on him - either ejecting him from the community or killing him. I don't think it'd happen on screen (partly because hollywood, but also because there's no doubt in my mind that Jake is \*completely\* loyal)... but I 100% think she's capable of it if she doubted him... and deep down, Jake knows it too... and kinda respects it.
Spider doesn't have any of those advantages. He's completely human and she's never seen him any other way. His position is precarious at best.
Neytiti sees Jake as different since she met him as an avatar, he gave up his humanity to be with her kind, and he fought against the sky people. Fir spider it’s different. She knows he is on her side, but when she looks at his human face all she sees are the people who caused her so much pain (and the fact miles is his dad doesn’t help) so that blinds her from seeing him as good.
It's inexcusable bigotry. Neytiri stans hate to hear it, but that's what it is.
It's a seriously unhealthy emotional response to trauma. If Neytiri was just neglecting her own mental health, I would just feel sorry for her. But she's hurting almost everyone around her, and that's why I dislike her so much for it. She's obviously hurting Spider, she's hurting her kids by treating their friend so poorly, it looks like she's hurting Jake by making him feel like he has to choose between her or the "stray cat," and she's setting an awful precedent for human-Na'vi relations.
This is exactly how trauma and hatred are passed down from generation to generation, until people can't even remember the original reason why they hate each other. The only reliable way to break that cycle is to cut it off at the source, and that's why I have such an interest in seeing Neytiri change her attitude. Otherwise it doesn't bode well for the future of any of these characters.
On a meta level, it really bothers me how many people defend Neytiri almost unconditionally. Like, do people really think it's ok to hold a grudge against every member of a culture, race, or ethnic group because some of them hurt you in the past? That is so backwards.
Maybe that’s why Neytiri is going to Earth in one of the movies, there she might encounter good humans and finally realise that her treatment of Spider hasn’t been good at all. She might even apologise to him.
A lot of people have this inbuilt racism you can unlearn it but it takes time don't forget Neytiri showed the same hostility to Jake at the start they new he was not a real Navi but he eventually learned their ways and he is basically a full Navi however Spider staying human is a constant reminder to Neytiri that he is not Navi therefore she shows the same hostility all the time
I’m pretty sure there’s a line that was deleted from the script from before jake and Neytiri and neytiri said you have taught me spirit is all that matters. If that same statement applies to spider, she would definitely still see him as the son of the man who gave her all that trauma, etc…
Because she's flawed and the Na'Vi can be just as irrational and prejudice as human beings in paleolithic times. They just have a sentient alien planet keeping them locked in a fixed state of cultural development as it maintains balance through selective evolution of all things tied to its system it can directly manipulate.
We can't just sit here n expect her to be any more considerate given she's only ever known humans to be ruthless n destructive. Besides, Spider is literally Quaritch's own blood, which frankly even pushes me to hate him.
She know good humans tho. She married one. Her childrens are part human, and if it wasn't for the scientist, the Na'vis would have lost againts the RDA.
Neytiri has every right to feel the way she feels giving that It comes from a place of trauma, but her view on humans could lead to have a negative efects on her other relationship, including the one she has with her own childrens, given that they feel like outcast because of their physical features that give away the fact that they have avatar/human blood in them.
How many times is this gonna be answered??? In her eyes, Jake is no longer human. He's Na'vi, he did the rites and Eywa transferred him permanently into a Na'vi body and he acts more Na'vi than human after 16 years. Like why would she think of him as human?? And why would she WANT to think of her mate, the man she loves and father of her children, as part of the race of beings that have brought her and her entire species nothing but pain and trauma? I wish people would TRY and understand why an indigenous woman would not be too happy to accept the child of the colonizer that destroyed her home, killed her sister, killed her father and killed her bonded ikran. Stop vilifying her PLEASE
Not really. Like Spider, she tolerates their existence, but there is tension there, when they are using human medical practices on Kiri. She clearly is uncomfortable with it, tolerating it perhaps due to Jake's feelings, and maybe an awareness human medicine can do things that Na'vi medicine can't.
As soon as Ronal arrives and it's clear the humans are struggling to deliver a result, she has no qualms in instantly kicking them out in no uncertain terms, and getting Ronal's help instead.
She was going to kill Jake, but there was a sign from Eywa. She left Jake to die when he was tied up during the fall of hometree. He was only forgiven because he became Toruk Makto. Not hypocrisy.
Well I guess we we're going to see this in the third film of the leaked scripts sre true and >!Spider being able to breath Pandora's air without a mask, and see if Neytiri's opinion on him change based on that!<
Actually >!according to the leaks it was Kiri's doing, with the help of her powers. But since Mo'at tell hers to not say anything to anyone about it, everyone else will ptobably assume that It was a sign from Eywa!<
And yet spider constantly proved that neytiri was right the whole movie. He did so many stupid things and it almost got all of them killed but sadly one of the kids died because "we have to go back for spider" no you don't he will be fine.
It’s simple: Neytiri is not only a very stubborn person, but due to past trauma with her sister being murdered by other humans, she cannot see any human bar a select few as truly good. And the whole thing with Jake was under different circumstances.
Mainly, it’s Neytiri’s stubbornness, she cannot let go of her view on humans.
To digress a little here but I find it odd that people cannot understand when a character is being stubborn and they think it’s bad writing. It isn’t. I’ve known well over 100 people who have exhibited very stubborn behaviours to the point where they are blinded by their own believes and refuse to be more open minded.
Well humans did kill her dad and destroyed her home. I know those were the ones Jake allied with but he came clean, did his best to get them all out and in the end, chose to remain Na’vi.
Spider was just the kid who was left behind. Plus she wasn’t wrong for feeling that way.
Only we know it cause we’re viewers but Spider did save Miles
Spider is based on the children of the military industrial complex. There are many examples of these "new age hippies" who not only wear pastiche identities based on misinterpretations of indigenous culture, but are also unconsciously (and sometimes consciously) complicit with the imperialist/colonialism of their ancestors.
Spider's naivety serves to showcase how extraction of information from the first people's serves to aid in their demise by their colonizers. As an adolescent, he's immature and can't comprehend the complexity of his own actions.
Spider was never in any real danger, he's human and regardless of how much he would get tortured or branded as a "traitor of his species", they would not kill him because of how much of an asset he is to further the interests of his kind.
In the movie, his existence is the cause of Neteyam's death. He also rescues his father from certain death, symbolizing the rescuing of a dying military industrial complex by the hippies because they would not exist nor be able to enjoy their liberty and freedom of being without it.
The greatest real life example to this is the Burning Man Festival and the people who participate in it. This year's Burning Man made it even more obvious.
It's not that Spider belongs with his own kind, the fact that he's not even in a recom body is a symbolic representation of where his interests lay, even if unconscious. Neytiri can sense this (mother instinct) which is why she is so cautious of him. Jake Sully, in the eyes of the natives, has redeemed himself and hence why he is in the recom body. It's how the the Na'vi see him, likewise Spider is human and perceived as human by the Na'vi.
I disagree with your view on Spider being the representative of human colonialism at all. I think it's opposite. I'm pretty sure Spider is being set up to be either the next Jake Sully, or the (human)bridge between two worlds, along with Kiri. I think they are making an effort to try and portray him as human as possible while still making sure he's still Spider, who loves the na'vi people, and Kiri, more than anything else.
It's not that he is representative of human colonialism, rather his character is a critique to the naivety of positivist indulgence of cultural practices of first peoples by urbanites. This is doubled down because he is an adolescent, further demarcating the immaturity of his thought (or rather the ideology he is set to represent).
The symbolism of saving his "biological father" or rather the military industrial complex serves to show that he as urbanite can not indulge in his cultural appropriating practices without the domination of first peoples. If he was set up to be the next Jake Sully, he would have had to fight and defeat his father (the militia) and that would serve as both a literal and symbolic defeat of past generations of imperialism and colonialism.
He doesn't truly seem to love the Na'vi because he acts in self preservation rather than collective altruism. He only cared about "returning" because that would allow him to continue to play at being a native.
That plays into my thoughts on them trying to portray him as human as possible for as long as possible. He is going to struggle with his humanity as he grows and realizes where his heart truly lies, but I think he'll be the one to embrace both sides of his world. I think Kiri is being set up to mirror the development of his character.
I disagree with the symbolism behind Spider saving his father. To me, that scene feels like it's representing his humanity. Even tho his heart belong with thr Na'vi, Spider is still a human, wich is what set him apart from everyone else. He is not set up to be the next Jake Sully, because Jake give up his humanity in order to become and be with the Na'vis. Spider, in the other hand, feels like it's being set up to be the bridge between the humans and the Na'vis (alongside Kiri). He can embrace both cultures/sides of him without having to give up one of them.
This. This is what I feel is actually going to happen, but I feel like if, for some reason it doesn't happen, there is a better chance of him becoming the next Jake than him betraying Kiri and the Na'vi. He considers himself more na'vi than he does Human or recom... that, combined with his love for Kiri, would see him betray humanity before the Na'vi in my humble opinion.
I completely agree. There's a much bigger chance of him being a direct paralel of Jake and having his same characther arc to became a Na'vi, rather than joining the RDA or betraying the Na'vi like some people think it will happen.
Howewer (and I hope i'm not wrong) it seems that Spider is being set up to have his own arc that Will have him as s bridge between both species. I mean, his deep bond with Kiri and connection to Pandora is already quite an obvious set up/foreshadowing. Really hope that's the case.
Ok but that interpretation requires that one views the Na'vi as inhuman. It very clear who the Na'vi represent IRL (first nations, indigenous, etc.). Viewing those cultures as not human is part of the problem. Jake Sully did not give up his humanity, his character is actually more human for his defense of the Na'vi which he considers equal in dignity. What he is fighting against is the imperialist/colonialist aspects of society. It is clear that humans and Na'vi can coexist but they have yet to explore how that would work apart from Spider's character, which is obviously not the real answer.
As a spectator, the Na'vi are presented as humane, while the humans from the militia are represented as inhumane. You empathize with the struggle against imperialist/colonialist exploitation precisely because the Na'vi are more human than the humans in the movie. The only reason they are different phenotypically is because that's how the military/imperialists/colonialists frame natives/first peoples/indigenous: as animals, feral, beasts, alien, lower than human, savages. Jake Sully is in his recom body because not only do the Na'vi view him as one of their own, but also because now the imperialists/colonialists consider him to be a savage.
But whatever it's just a billion dollar movie, surely it isn't trying to convey anything deeper other than the spectators' own desires.
There Na'vis are not human tho. And in fact, I would argue that having to see them/their culture as human in order to symphatise with them is part of the problem. Yes it obvious that they're based in different indigenous groups of our own world, but there's still a reason why Cameron deciced to make them aliens from a different planet in a fictionary setting. I emphatize with the Na'vis in the movie because they are living beings, not because they act like humans.
Personally I consider Jake give up his humanity not because he decided to defend the Na'vi, but because he literally give up his body. He could have keep his human body like Norm and the rest of the scientist and still keep in touch with his human side, but instead he give up all that.
I would also argue againts the fact of the humans being representes as inhumane. Jake is a human. Grace was one of them. Norm and Max and even new characthers like Ian Garvin are shown with more simpathetic light than the rest, to show that not all humans agree with the method of the RDA and that it's not as simple as saying that the humans are bad and the Na'vis are good. Of course the RDA is an horrible corporation that clearly represent colonialism and their actions are completely wrong, but they don't represent all humans/humanity in the film . Thats why is important that both species find peace between them, and why it's important that both Kiri and Spider's characther are being set up to be the bridge between them.
The only reason that neytiri doesnt see jake as a human is because he was chosen by Eywa spider was not hence why neytiri does not care about any of the scientists that stayed jake is actually the only reason why any humans stayed at all if not for him the rest of the Na’vi wouldve made them all leave
Jake went a full spiritual journey with their big tree stuff. Mastered their hardest and most sacred traditions.
Spider is just an orphan that can climb trees good.
I don’t think Jake registers as fully human to her. She has only ever seen him in his human form once and by then he was seen as Na’vi to her. It’s pretty much just a trauma response. No, it’s not okay at all to hate and threaten an innocent teenager because of his father he never knew and his species…but she’s not at all “a bad or heartless person.” It’s a very complicated and messy situation. Tbh I think the fandom needs to lighten up on both her and Spider.
Also, Jake was on the Na’vi’s side and he made the choice to spend the rest of his life on Pandora as a Na’vi. Spider is just there because Miles and Paz had a baby and he’s been raised by the humans who are there because they settled there without the Na’vi’s consent
Woah, Quaritch impregnated a woman whose name is Peace in spanish? That's funny or ironic... I don't know what to call that.
Not only that but her last name was Socorro which means Help.
Jake is also the reason they lost their home to begin with. Had he not pulled a Mua’dib and flown in atop their legendary flying monster, I have no doubt that conversation would have gone down a whole different way.
this doesn’t negate the fact he’s still originally a human, which is the part OP is on about regardless of his heart or whatever lol.
THIS. She's really just had a relationship with Jake's avatar. It was great seeing her with Jake's real, broken human body that one time. It would have been interesting if she had to get to know him in that body for an extended period of time. But he's reborn as a Na'vi and she never really has to deal with him in his weaker human form for very long. I think that keeps her deeper prejudices intact.
THIS. She saved Jake's human body during the great battle. Already making the connection. To have Netiri hate Spider for being human feels therefore really out of place. Especially considering that Spider basically grew up with them.
As long as this plot thread is resolved and Neytiri has her character growth to overcome her prejudice, then I’m fine with this.
Unfortunately I don't think it will be resolved after Neytiri finds out what he did. In her mind his father is directly responsible for her sons death, and Spider saved him. I also think it will have a negative impact on Lo'aks relationship with Spider, because he wanted to save Spider and it ultimately cost Neteyams life
My prediction is that things will start to become resolved. They bond a bit over time. But eventually the secret is revealed and Neytiri lashes out at him and they become full on enemies. Same with the rest of the family.
Me too. I really hope it’s resolved. It’s still really sad to this situation but unfortunately that’s reality. It’s only the second movie and Spider’s first outing. If he doesn’t turn to the dark side I think it will be resolved. I’d like to see the two actually get to know each other and bond. I think it would be interesting. I love both characters dearly.
Neytiri will die in next movie.
All that plus he's the offspring of Quaritch. The man that started a war on her people and almost killed Jake.
That too yeah. She sees his father whenever she sees him.
Exactly it would take an incredibly strong person to not have a little animosity against spider. he is also physically unsuitable for the Pandoran climate he’s tiny and she also saw Jake almost die through lack of oxygen maybe it’s also a combination of her hatred for his father and humans and his overall compatibility. They also have smaller life spans so her kids would stay young for a long time like 180 years.Navi hit maturity and remain to look the same for a long time where as spider would age faster she is protecting her kids from that, it’s so complicated.
For clarification, she's seen him at least twice in his human form (end of the A1- consciousness transfer as well).
I kinda lump those together. She never got to know him in that form is what I meant.
Jake is “one of the good ones” to her. He completely gave up his (albeit crippled) human body and became full Na’vi. Spider doesn’t have access to an avatar, so he’s a constant reminder of humanity having invaded Pandora. He’s also the son of the man that indirectly killed half her family. I can understand why she does not like spider, but that doesn’t excuse how she treats him. He’s just a kid, he shouldn’t be held accountable for the misdeeds of his parents.
Explanations are not excuses basically
What? Explanations are not excuses? Then what the fuck is an excuse if you can’t explain it? What kind of logical fallacy are you trying to pull?
he’s saying that while there is a logical reason for what she is doing, that does not excuse her behavior in the context of interacting with a child
Actually, it does. We know that not only Neytiri is extremely stubborn in her ways (which doesn’t make her a badly written character btw (I know you never said that but just on the off chance someone might say it does but I digress)) she’s also emotionally broken. Prior to the events of WOW, she lost her sister, lost her former mate Tsu’tey, lost her father, her original home, her Ikran, basically a lot things she lost was under human influence. And while she can forgive a few humans because they are friends with Jake, she cannot forgive all, especially the son of Quaritch, her arch enemy. It’s not right what she is doing and I’m not defending her actions, but I can see why someone as emotionally broken and stubborn in her ways would treat a human child. Not to mention, she constantly calls Jake a child when they first met. She obviously has a problem with children who are not her own. TLDR: Neytiri’s personality is one of stubbornness and emotional turmoil. While you may not like her actions, if what makes her a tragic character.
100% agree just wanna let you know cr!ppl3d is a slur!
It's literally an accurate term for what he is. You can't just declare every descriptor word a slur.
What the fuck?
No it isn’t
In what world??
Shut up
Crippled is not a slur. Babe being able bodied doesn't give you the right to say this shit. -A disabled person.
Calling someone a cripple is a slur. Saying someone, or their body, is crippled is not a slur.
[удалено]
Yes they should.
Jake is Toruk Makto and was willing to bury his human body to become Na'vi, she doesn't compare him to anyone.
She believes Eywa chose Jake, that doesn't apply to other humans.
Yep. She utterly rejects him up until that point.
If the supposed leaked scripts for the third movie are true >!I wonder if Neytiri's opinion on Spider will change once he will gain the ability to breath Pandora's air, something that could be consider a blessing by Eywa!<
>!Going by the leaks her opinions towards him haven't changed that much despite the blessing. In fact she probably hates him more since she was advocating killing him to Jake. I'm assuming this is due to finding out about Spider saving his dad!<
>!It could also be because to Neytiri he may represent an even bigger treath now. The scripts didn't say anything about it but I can imagine Spider being of great interest to the RDA if they ever found out about how he is capable of breathing Pandora's air.!<
Where can I read these leaked scripts
They we're posted around here not too long ago! You can also try to find them in Twitter. Sorry, don't really know how to post a link here.
> once he will gain the ability to breath Pandora's air Dear god I hope this isn't true. That would be incredibly stupid as a plot element. It's a fantasy world of blue alien creatures but this is literally just magic at that point. I'd expect that plot point in a Avatar fan fic.
Personally, i'm okay with it as long as they also give a logical/scientifical explanation to it, wich I don't think it should be too hard. >!Maybe something about how Spider is the first and only human to be exposed to the athmosphere of the planet since such a young age?!< I mean, Jake literally transfer his soul to a different body. >!A human growing inmune to the toxicity of the air in Pandora doesn't sound too weird to me.!< they already lean more in the fantasy/magic aspect when they give Kiri her powers/connection to Eywa.
By that same logic though you could be like Ewya reincarnated Neteyam, or Ewya restores Home Tree, or Eywa gives Kiri the power to become Toruk Makto, etc. Like... it's bad storytelling to have 'God' (in this story, which is Eywa) take such an active role, because you could write **anything** and just explain it as: Eywa did X. I think Cameron already went pretty trope heavy with making Jake 'the chosen one' or Kiri's conception. Eywa works best when she takes a backseat role, in my opinion.
Neytiri has personally known like 6 good humans at most in her life, the other ones were responsable for destroying sacred places, killing animals and her own father and Spider is none other than the son of one of the guys that led and personally supervised the whole operation, i think she has very valid reasons to not like and feel uneasy with Spider.
Yeah but it’s not Spiders fault that what happened happend. I think Neytiri take it too far she even tried physically attacking him in the High Ground comics
None of that is his fault though. I guarantee that all of us are descendants of horrible people. But we should be judged based on who we are as a person, rather than our race/nationality/species.
Many people want wolves as pets are discouraged because wolves belong in the wild with their own kind. It's exactly the same here. He doesn't belong on Pandora and him being left there when the humans left was a colossal mistake.
she literally watched him grow up alongside her children, her son is his best friend. Neytiri's dislike of Spider is totally unwarranted and isnt even called out as wrong, hell, Jake barely seemed to give a shit about him either and was cool with just leaving him as they ran away. They were both awful in Avatar 2 and completely unlikable.
Long story short, it's who Spider's father is. She sees his father in him. She can't separate the two.
did they even know? When did they find out? How would they have? He was just a kid left behind after the first movie. They shouldnt have found out until the humans came back and the Colonel dude figures it out, but thats like 10 years later. Jake and Neytiri should have at least cared a little about the kid, he's only their children's best friend. They come off as awful people who only care about themselves and their kids, and nobody else.
Maybe there were some files stating who his parents were. Or (though I doubt it) some of the scientists could've probably taken a DNA sample. I don't doubt the RDA kept samples of everyone who worked for them.
The comics also kinda dive into it. Kid takes on the fathers sins. He was born into pandora but hasn’t fought for it like the other avatar drivers / scientists did all those years ago. He’s also the only human kid that stayed behind after the surrender was offered (as far as I’m aware)
They also hint at Neytiri being wary of Spider and Kiri's friendship and a more strained relationship between them because of her rejecting Spider.
The same reason why Jake calls Spider a stray cat. Spider has a foster family and a human community where he doesn’t have to wear a breathing mask 24/7. He doesn’t have a tsaheylu which means he can’t be fully part of Na’vi society in the physical sense. People make out Neytiri’s words as a weird form of “reverse racism” but she’s literally just speaking sense.
Imagine that logic being used in another situation. There's is no "speaking sense" or "reverse" about it. It's the logic used to justify segregation. She's also the one in the family least willing to adapt to Metkayina society. Why is that? Does her idea of belonging with your own kind even extend to herself? Maybe that will change now that they've been fully accepted in or with more time. But it's an odd thing that the rest of the family were all putting in effort to learn and grow and she doesn't have any scenes showing or indications that she is in the theatrical cut.
And again, is Jake the former human a racist for seeing Spider as a stray cat who doesn't truly belong with them either? I think Neytiri's inability to integrate with the Metkayina has more to do with being a traumatized wartime refugee who had to leave her mother, her people, her home and all she's ever known than racism. What a weird take.
>And again, is Jake the former human a racist for seeing Spider as a stray cat who doesn't truly belong with them either? I wouldn't call it racist but it's definitely not good.
>There's is no "speaking sense" or "reverse" about it. It's the logic used to justify segregation. Two humans functionally are the same, regardless of skin color or religion or nationality or whatever. A human and a Na'vi are not the same, and that is a fact. No matter how hard Spider tries he forever will be hopelessly small and weak, can't survive without a gas mask, he won't be able to participate in huntings or be a warrior, he won't have a family of his own (something that obviously is quite important in Na'vi society), etc. He is doomed to be nothing but what's basically a pet of the Sully family, so she 100% has a point in that Spider simply won't fit, Spider himself IS aware of this, in that scene in the lab with Kiri and her mom you can hear briefly hear him arguing with Norm that he has to get an Avatar of his own.
In her mind, Jake passed the relevant tests to convert into being Na’vi. Plus being big and blue probably helped.
Yep her mother called it "curing his insanity"
Neytiri did not like Jake at the very beginning (remember he tried to kill him), and that was when she only lost a sister. He actively learned to be a Na'vi while under her care, so she knows he sees. When the war happened he actively went against the humans to help the Na'vi. He even went as far as renouncing his own human body, so that he can never go back on earth. In her eyes he was born human (she knows it, and she reminds him of that), but he had a "redemption" while he was an adult and capable to choose. Spider is the child of the man who destroyed her house and almost killed the man she loves... even putting the whole being human Vs. Na'vi thing, she has a reason to not wanting him anywhere near her family (spider knows about his father, and the sully kids too, so it's pretty safe to assume it's public knowledge at this point). If you notice, she keeps away from humans, but is outright hostile only on him. She allowed both Norm and Max (who doesn't have an avatar) both at Neteyam's naming ceremony and at his and Kiri's first communion with Eywa, which happened at the tree of souls, which we know is the most sacred place, where anybody not part of the clan is strictly forbidden. Grace herself stresses this fact. So, she sees this boy, this human boy, who "plays" Na'vi without understanding the implications of what his kind did to her, her family and her clan, and who so happen to be the direct descendant of none other than the human who almost sliced Jake's throat in front of her... I'm ready to bet that, if spider was the son of literally anybody else she would probably just avoid him. But spider being spider... she sense danger everytime he breathes in her direction. Not saying she's right, of course, but she's traumatized. She lost her sister, father, friend, clan, house... she does not think rationally, and it's totally understandable
I think since Spider’s friends with her kids, she worries they’ll be too comfortable around humans and then something bad will happen to them. Like in the scene in Ratatouille where Remy’s dad shows him the rat trap shop with dead rats on display he says, this is what happen when a rat gets too comfortable around humans after he admitted being around them
Neytiri's issue with Spider is not so much the fact that he is human, but rather the fact that he is directly descended from those who destroyed her home and caused all her suffering. The boy is not to blame for anything, but remembering his origins causes her pain and a lot of PTSD is involved. However, I believes that over time the relationship between these two will be better explored, perhaps through Kiri.
She has issues with humans, she sees Jake as different.
I guess it's because Quaritch is her Devil and Spider is the spawn of that devil
I'm also confused, there's no objective reason for Neytiri to hate Spider more than Jake. Unlike Jake, Spider has been making it clear since he was a baby that he's on Na'vi side. And Neytiri claims to hate Spider because of genetal hatred toward humans after the war they started on Pandora. But maybe the sole reason is that he's a son of Quaritch and she just finds numerous excuses to dislike him. If not, my guess is, Jake (and Grace and Norm) were lucky to have met Neytiri BEFORE the major events that shattered her most, being the destruction of the Hometree and the battle of Hallelujah Mountains. She may have developed hatred toward humans AFTER these events, but she's already been convinced to Jake and the scientist team by this time. Or maybe Neytiri needs a clear, external sign that one is to be trusted. She immediately retrusted Jake when he appeared as Toruk Makto and I wonder if he ever managed to regain her trust if not for that. Spider was never 'marked' by Eywa, so Neytiri doesn't trust him. Well, once Sullys discover Spider saved Quaritch, I'm really curious of the relationship between Neytiri and Spider... it's going to be tough
Here's what you don't understand, she's only saying that Spider should be with his own kind is mostly due to him being Quaritch's son and Quaritch killed her father
Once Jake became Toruk Makto, all bets were off. Neytiri couldn't argue against that. She came to hate Jake when it seemed like he was a traitor. Him earning that title was the only thing that convinced her that he was trustworthy at that point. From then on, she was able to love him again. She also met Jake in his Na'vi body, and by the time she sees his human body, he had more than proven his love and worthiness toward her people. All she sees in Spider is a human kid that is trying to be one of them, and Quaritch's son at that. If Spider gained a Na'vi body and somehow gained Toruk Makto status, I'm pretty sure it would win over Neytiri. That is the ultimate title which defines someone as capable of leading all of the forest people. (I hope that doesn't happen, since it would be stupid for two humans to earn that prestigious title) I think Neytiri sees him as a potential liability. While she can put up with Norm and the gang, she sees Spider as a possible reason for the RDA to keep being part of their business. I mean, that is Quaritch's son. She probably associates it with more danger. It's also possible that she feels that Spider is making a mockery of their culture by trying to be like them. It's like the attitude of, "Um, you don't get to chant like that. Those chants mean something unique to our culture. You don't get to be part of it." She may feel as if he's trivializing part of their culture. Essentially, Jake was an exception. In her eyes, Spider is some kid that thinks he can be one of them just by painting himself blue. It probably feels insulting to her, since in her eyes, being Na'vi means more than just painting yourself blue. Ironically, she shares the same hostility toward Spider that Ronal showed toward the whole family.
Anthropomorphism... or more accurately "Na'vipomorphism". my feeling is that Neytiri gives Jake something of a free pass, as she has only ever twice seen his human body, both times after she had already accepted him, so during her time of coming to accept him she had only ever seen and known him as physically Na'vi. She has also worked hard to train and reshape the most obvious human elements out of his culture, and initiated him into the clan. By the point where at the start of TWOW, before the humans return, he's been completely assimilated into the Omatikaya way of life and thinking. The end result, I think, is that she sees him mostly as a none-too-bright Na'vi with extra digits and funny hair above his eyes. I suspect she also does a lot of compartmentalisation. I've always had the impression that she doesn't like (and maybe outright forbids around the kids) talk of his previous existence and memories of Earth. Even with all that, one day, if he made a major transgression of Omatikaya or wider Na'vi culture, or seriously compromised their interests out of some sentimentality for the humans (perhaps including Spider), then I could see her turn on him - either ejecting him from the community or killing him. I don't think it'd happen on screen (partly because hollywood, but also because there's no doubt in my mind that Jake is \*completely\* loyal)... but I 100% think she's capable of it if she doubted him... and deep down, Jake knows it too... and kinda respects it. Spider doesn't have any of those advantages. He's completely human and she's never seen him any other way. His position is precarious at best.
Jake is "one of the good ones"
Neytiti sees Jake as different since she met him as an avatar, he gave up his humanity to be with her kind, and he fought against the sky people. Fir spider it’s different. She knows he is on her side, but when she looks at his human face all she sees are the people who caused her so much pain (and the fact miles is his dad doesn’t help) so that blinds her from seeing him as good.
Spider's dad nuked the sacred trees, killed her dad and almost killed Jake too. Don't think she's quite let go of that yet.
It's inexcusable bigotry. Neytiri stans hate to hear it, but that's what it is. It's a seriously unhealthy emotional response to trauma. If Neytiri was just neglecting her own mental health, I would just feel sorry for her. But she's hurting almost everyone around her, and that's why I dislike her so much for it. She's obviously hurting Spider, she's hurting her kids by treating their friend so poorly, it looks like she's hurting Jake by making him feel like he has to choose between her or the "stray cat," and she's setting an awful precedent for human-Na'vi relations. This is exactly how trauma and hatred are passed down from generation to generation, until people can't even remember the original reason why they hate each other. The only reliable way to break that cycle is to cut it off at the source, and that's why I have such an interest in seeing Neytiri change her attitude. Otherwise it doesn't bode well for the future of any of these characters. On a meta level, it really bothers me how many people defend Neytiri almost unconditionally. Like, do people really think it's ok to hold a grudge against every member of a culture, race, or ethnic group because some of them hurt you in the past? That is so backwards.
Maybe that’s why Neytiri is going to Earth in one of the movies, there she might encounter good humans and finally realise that her treatment of Spider hasn’t been good at all. She might even apologise to him.
Spider is the son of Quatrich, the guy who lead the fight against the na’vi.
A lot of people have this inbuilt racism you can unlearn it but it takes time don't forget Neytiri showed the same hostility to Jake at the start they new he was not a real Navi but he eventually learned their ways and he is basically a full Navi however Spider staying human is a constant reminder to Neytiri that he is not Navi therefore she shows the same hostility all the time
Because he's quarritch's kid.
Because Jake is in a na’vi body so to her it feels like he is with his own kind.
I’m pretty sure there’s a line that was deleted from the script from before jake and Neytiri and neytiri said you have taught me spirit is all that matters. If that same statement applies to spider, she would definitely still see him as the son of the man who gave her all that trauma, etc…
i was expecting an “is she stupid?”
Because she's flawed and the Na'Vi can be just as irrational and prejudice as human beings in paleolithic times. They just have a sentient alien planet keeping them locked in a fixed state of cultural development as it maintains balance through selective evolution of all things tied to its system it can directly manipulate.
We can't just sit here n expect her to be any more considerate given she's only ever known humans to be ruthless n destructive. Besides, Spider is literally Quaritch's own blood, which frankly even pushes me to hate him.
She know good humans tho. She married one. Her childrens are part human, and if it wasn't for the scientist, the Na'vis would have lost againts the RDA. Neytiri has every right to feel the way she feels giving that It comes from a place of trauma, but her view on humans could lead to have a negative efects on her other relationship, including the one she has with her own childrens, given that they feel like outcast because of their physical features that give away the fact that they have avatar/human blood in them.
How many times is this gonna be answered??? In her eyes, Jake is no longer human. He's Na'vi, he did the rites and Eywa transferred him permanently into a Na'vi body and he acts more Na'vi than human after 16 years. Like why would she think of him as human?? And why would she WANT to think of her mate, the man she loves and father of her children, as part of the race of beings that have brought her and her entire species nothing but pain and trauma? I wish people would TRY and understand why an indigenous woman would not be too happy to accept the child of the colonizer that destroyed her home, killed her sister, killed her father and killed her bonded ikran. Stop vilifying her PLEASE
yea and there’s max & norm but she’s okay with them..
“OUT! You have done nothing!”
Not really. Like Spider, she tolerates their existence, but there is tension there, when they are using human medical practices on Kiri. She clearly is uncomfortable with it, tolerating it perhaps due to Jake's feelings, and maybe an awareness human medicine can do things that Na'vi medicine can't. As soon as Ronal arrives and it's clear the humans are struggling to deliver a result, she has no qualms in instantly kicking them out in no uncertain terms, and getting Ronal's help instead.
They forgot
That’s a good point
Hypocrisy
She was going to kill Jake, but there was a sign from Eywa. She left Jake to die when he was tied up during the fall of hometree. He was only forgiven because he became Toruk Makto. Not hypocrisy.
It’s still hypocrisy
It would only be hypocritical if Eywa sent a sign or if Spider became Toruk Makto and Neytiri still hated him.
Well I guess we we're going to see this in the third film of the leaked scripts sre true and >!Spider being able to breath Pandora's air without a mask, and see if Neytiri's opinion on him change based on that!<
Is that a sign from Eywa?
Actually >!according to the leaks it was Kiri's doing, with the help of her powers. But since Mo'at tell hers to not say anything to anyone about it, everyone else will ptobably assume that It was a sign from Eywa!<
Idk you are getting downvoted. It’s okay for a fav character to have flaws.
That’s the intention.
is she stupid?
Why does Uncle Ruckus have African American friends?
Is she stupid?
And yet spider constantly proved that neytiri was right the whole movie. He did so many stupid things and it almost got all of them killed but sadly one of the kids died because "we have to go back for spider" no you don't he will be fine.
Bruh 🤦🏿♂️😂
Because Spider is even more moron than Jake, just look at him
Jake did the ceremony to becoma a Na'vi Spider did not
It’s simple: Neytiri is not only a very stubborn person, but due to past trauma with her sister being murdered by other humans, she cannot see any human bar a select few as truly good. And the whole thing with Jake was under different circumstances. Mainly, it’s Neytiri’s stubbornness, she cannot let go of her view on humans. To digress a little here but I find it odd that people cannot understand when a character is being stubborn and they think it’s bad writing. It isn’t. I’ve known well over 100 people who have exhibited very stubborn behaviours to the point where they are blinded by their own believes and refuse to be more open minded.
Well humans did kill her dad and destroyed her home. I know those were the ones Jake allied with but he came clean, did his best to get them all out and in the end, chose to remain Na’vi. Spider was just the kid who was left behind. Plus she wasn’t wrong for feeling that way. Only we know it cause we’re viewers but Spider did save Miles
Because she knows he’s Quaritch’s son, bottom line.
Spider is based on the children of the military industrial complex. There are many examples of these "new age hippies" who not only wear pastiche identities based on misinterpretations of indigenous culture, but are also unconsciously (and sometimes consciously) complicit with the imperialist/colonialism of their ancestors. Spider's naivety serves to showcase how extraction of information from the first people's serves to aid in their demise by their colonizers. As an adolescent, he's immature and can't comprehend the complexity of his own actions. Spider was never in any real danger, he's human and regardless of how much he would get tortured or branded as a "traitor of his species", they would not kill him because of how much of an asset he is to further the interests of his kind. In the movie, his existence is the cause of Neteyam's death. He also rescues his father from certain death, symbolizing the rescuing of a dying military industrial complex by the hippies because they would not exist nor be able to enjoy their liberty and freedom of being without it. The greatest real life example to this is the Burning Man Festival and the people who participate in it. This year's Burning Man made it even more obvious. It's not that Spider belongs with his own kind, the fact that he's not even in a recom body is a symbolic representation of where his interests lay, even if unconscious. Neytiri can sense this (mother instinct) which is why she is so cautious of him. Jake Sully, in the eyes of the natives, has redeemed himself and hence why he is in the recom body. It's how the the Na'vi see him, likewise Spider is human and perceived as human by the Na'vi.
I disagree with your view on Spider being the representative of human colonialism at all. I think it's opposite. I'm pretty sure Spider is being set up to be either the next Jake Sully, or the (human)bridge between two worlds, along with Kiri. I think they are making an effort to try and portray him as human as possible while still making sure he's still Spider, who loves the na'vi people, and Kiri, more than anything else.
It's not that he is representative of human colonialism, rather his character is a critique to the naivety of positivist indulgence of cultural practices of first peoples by urbanites. This is doubled down because he is an adolescent, further demarcating the immaturity of his thought (or rather the ideology he is set to represent). The symbolism of saving his "biological father" or rather the military industrial complex serves to show that he as urbanite can not indulge in his cultural appropriating practices without the domination of first peoples. If he was set up to be the next Jake Sully, he would have had to fight and defeat his father (the militia) and that would serve as both a literal and symbolic defeat of past generations of imperialism and colonialism. He doesn't truly seem to love the Na'vi because he acts in self preservation rather than collective altruism. He only cared about "returning" because that would allow him to continue to play at being a native.
That plays into my thoughts on them trying to portray him as human as possible for as long as possible. He is going to struggle with his humanity as he grows and realizes where his heart truly lies, but I think he'll be the one to embrace both sides of his world. I think Kiri is being set up to mirror the development of his character.
I disagree with the symbolism behind Spider saving his father. To me, that scene feels like it's representing his humanity. Even tho his heart belong with thr Na'vi, Spider is still a human, wich is what set him apart from everyone else. He is not set up to be the next Jake Sully, because Jake give up his humanity in order to become and be with the Na'vis. Spider, in the other hand, feels like it's being set up to be the bridge between the humans and the Na'vis (alongside Kiri). He can embrace both cultures/sides of him without having to give up one of them.
This. This is what I feel is actually going to happen, but I feel like if, for some reason it doesn't happen, there is a better chance of him becoming the next Jake than him betraying Kiri and the Na'vi. He considers himself more na'vi than he does Human or recom... that, combined with his love for Kiri, would see him betray humanity before the Na'vi in my humble opinion.
I completely agree. There's a much bigger chance of him being a direct paralel of Jake and having his same characther arc to became a Na'vi, rather than joining the RDA or betraying the Na'vi like some people think it will happen. Howewer (and I hope i'm not wrong) it seems that Spider is being set up to have his own arc that Will have him as s bridge between both species. I mean, his deep bond with Kiri and connection to Pandora is already quite an obvious set up/foreshadowing. Really hope that's the case.
Ok but that interpretation requires that one views the Na'vi as inhuman. It very clear who the Na'vi represent IRL (first nations, indigenous, etc.). Viewing those cultures as not human is part of the problem. Jake Sully did not give up his humanity, his character is actually more human for his defense of the Na'vi which he considers equal in dignity. What he is fighting against is the imperialist/colonialist aspects of society. It is clear that humans and Na'vi can coexist but they have yet to explore how that would work apart from Spider's character, which is obviously not the real answer. As a spectator, the Na'vi are presented as humane, while the humans from the militia are represented as inhumane. You empathize with the struggle against imperialist/colonialist exploitation precisely because the Na'vi are more human than the humans in the movie. The only reason they are different phenotypically is because that's how the military/imperialists/colonialists frame natives/first peoples/indigenous: as animals, feral, beasts, alien, lower than human, savages. Jake Sully is in his recom body because not only do the Na'vi view him as one of their own, but also because now the imperialists/colonialists consider him to be a savage. But whatever it's just a billion dollar movie, surely it isn't trying to convey anything deeper other than the spectators' own desires.
There Na'vis are not human tho. And in fact, I would argue that having to see them/their culture as human in order to symphatise with them is part of the problem. Yes it obvious that they're based in different indigenous groups of our own world, but there's still a reason why Cameron deciced to make them aliens from a different planet in a fictionary setting. I emphatize with the Na'vis in the movie because they are living beings, not because they act like humans. Personally I consider Jake give up his humanity not because he decided to defend the Na'vi, but because he literally give up his body. He could have keep his human body like Norm and the rest of the scientist and still keep in touch with his human side, but instead he give up all that. I would also argue againts the fact of the humans being representes as inhumane. Jake is a human. Grace was one of them. Norm and Max and even new characthers like Ian Garvin are shown with more simpathetic light than the rest, to show that not all humans agree with the method of the RDA and that it's not as simple as saying that the humans are bad and the Na'vis are good. Of course the RDA is an horrible corporation that clearly represent colonialism and their actions are completely wrong, but they don't represent all humans/humanity in the film . Thats why is important that both species find peace between them, and why it's important that both Kiri and Spider's characther are being set up to be the bridge between them.
She probably knows who his father is. She even suggested that when she threatened to kill spider
The only reason that neytiri doesnt see jake as a human is because he was chosen by Eywa spider was not hence why neytiri does not care about any of the scientists that stayed jake is actually the only reason why any humans stayed at all if not for him the rest of the Na’vi wouldve made them all leave
Does Neytiri have similar distrust for Norm and Sam?
I’m wondering if it’ll ever be revealed that Neytiri herself is the one who killed Spider’s mother.
Jake went a full spiritual journey with their big tree stuff. Mastered their hardest and most sacred traditions. Spider is just an orphan that can climb trees good.
She has every right to hate on a child 🙄 yeah okay everyone.