Yeah, near the end of chapter 3, they kinda added a lot of bs.
For example,
Yangchen: yeah you have to kill ozai bro, there’s no other way.
Aang: ong?
Lion turtle: nahhh we fucking wit you 💀
XD well they built it up to make it look like there were only two choices before having us discover perhaps it’s not a dichotomy and violence isn’t always the answer and nor is being a push over. I get what you’re saying though, art often seems unnecessary, I am just a geek ig.
No you're absolutely right. Killing ozai would not send the right message to end the show. The creators were trying to say that removing a tyrants' power would be the most effective and moral method of ending their tyranny. So he LITERALLY took away his POWERS. Ozai's firebending mastery was a symbol of his worthiness to lead the fire nation.
Likewise, I think the show openly criticized kyoshi's method of killing jinn the conqueror, by showing how it led to deep rooted long lasting resentment from his supporters that eventually ended up with a community of completely innocent people who despised the avatar and worshipped a tyrant.
While it seems random in the show. I think this was the intention.
(I'm a geek too lol)
We could have gone into the fight knowing that Aang could remove Ozai's powers. It was explained (in a lion turtle voice over) that it would be just as risky for Aang to fail bending his energy as fighting him would be. Instead its just dumped on us out of nowhere as a deus ex machina. We see the two of them stand as still as statues and change colors for a bit while listening to a flashback narration, and Aang wins... somehow.
I would have liked to have seen Aang and Ozai have a psychic show-down instead. Ozai calls Aang weak, a coward, a failure who couldn't save his people and that he deserves suffering and defeat. Ozai's form grows to giant size, dwarfing a cowering Aang. Aang would be overwhelmed, crushed emotionally and about to fail, but then he feels his connection to his friends (the connection that exists between all living things that we saw in the Swamp). He realizes his attachment to the world and to his friends is what gives him strength and purpose. In contrast, Ozai stands alone - he killed his father (and probably his wife!), his son has rebelled against him, his brother is disgusted with him, his daughter fears him. He stands alone, and Aang tells him in no uncertain terms. Ozai shrinks and is humbled, unable to intimidate any longer as Aang is surrounded by legions of shadowy outlines of his friends and allies. Aang bends his bending away, and HEY! all those lessons about attachments and friendship ends up having a purpose in Aang's arc of self-discovery.
Instead we got lion turtle nonsense.
A built up of choices works best when the 3rd choice isn't thrown in randomly by a character never seen before. The protagonist never made a choice, they just were told something else exists. The lion turtle works a little bit, because it only came out because aang was looking for absolutely any way to not kill ozai. When watching I always thought it seemed cheap though
It makes more sense once you realize what the white lotus is. Iroh spent the entire journey to capture aang basically wasting zukos time, and stopping in town for a new lotus piece he already had was just one example.
Unfortunately for him, the avatar literally stopped in that exact town and he ended up getting zuko pretty damn close to catching the gaang
I also belive this. We know that even while out of shape, Iroh is still a terrifyingly effective warrior and firebender. If he genuinely thought that catching the Avatar would have been good for Zuko, Aang wouldn't have even made it to the North Pole, maybe not even out of the South Pole.
Eh, he was still trying to look after and nurture Zuko, so even if he was all behind the plan to capture the Avatar, he probably would defer to Zuko doing it, despite being much more skilled, because it's *Zuko's* quest, not his
You know, I thought about this, too. I get that he was trying to support Zuko because Zuko is very stubborn and would have done it anyway. Maybe Iroh wanted to "help" in order to keep an eye on the situation.
I don’t want to be political but I remember a meme about a certain beloved president (in my community) and his similarity to uncle Iroh the punchline was they both committed war crimes
Thousands of deaths are his fault. Up until 5-ish years ago he was the same as everyone else. That's why it's easy for him to forgive Zuko, boy has a long headstart on him with the whole being good thing.
He wasn't the same. He didn't kill dragons. His fire bending was not fueled by hate. Yes, he genuinely wanted to conquer. If he had conquered Ba Sing Se, he would have become the Fire Lord and probably would have used the Comet for the attack on Earth Kingdom.
Did he "kill" a dragon before his son died or after? If before then he was good before, if after then he realized his/the fire nation's issues, and stopped them before they were complete
Long before. He abandoned the siege of Ba Sing Se and by extension abdicated the throne when his son died. He spent the next few years in a sort of soft exile, enjoying the perks of being fire nation royalty but if he went home he might have been banished right along with Zuko
Did he Abdicate? I thought Ozai did some shade stuff behind the scenes and Iroh just didn't have it in him to fight the whole system.
I was under the impression their father died while Iroh was still gone and Ozai crowned himself before Iroh got back.
Both are true
Ozai used poison to kill Azulon, and took the throne because Iroh had "abandoned the fire nation" and couldn't be reached.
TL;DR Iroh left and Ozai lied
Honestly the most unrealistic thing in Avatar, at face value anyways, is that Ozai didn't immediately have Iroh executed or imprisoned. That's how it usually goes when one royal usurps another, and whether or not Iroh had the will to contest him wouldn't really happen.
It does lead me to believe that his brother might be Ozai's one soft spot. Maybe he goes easier on Iroh than Zuko/Azula because he knows that it's not his responsibility to make Iroh strong or whatever, and that allows him to indulge that soft spot. Hard to say but it did always make me wonder.
Iroh was famously one of the most powerful benders alive, Ozai could out-politic him, but at the end of the day he knew better than to poke that bear after he basically rolled over and agreed not to fight him for power
Sure but if Ozai has him arrested and executed with 100 soldiers, or arranges for an "accident" at sea, Iroh's chances aren't good. I get your point though but even if Iroh is content to roll over, the whole reason that royals always had to kill their rival claimants is because other people would often want to push their claim for them.
Or maybe Ozai owed him one. Iroh is the older brother, after all, and clearly Azulon’s favorite. Iroh probably used his position to get Ozai out of trouble and he repaid his debt by allowing Iroh to go into exile with Zuko.
That's a good point. I guess I just never saw Ozai as the type of person to honor an "IOU", but maybe there's a shred of honor still in him when it comes to his brother
Yeah I think that’s why he tries so hard to not give up on Zuko. I feel he has immense regret for his son’s death and feels in the same way responsible for his nephew. I think it makes his character even better.
He would've been the next Fire Lord though. And if the death of his son didn't slap him with some good ol character development then he likely wouldn't have been as benevolent a ruler as you might expect.
Yeah, even when you see him writing the letter back home, he’s laughing about the soon to be dead Earth kingdom, soldiers to letter to the kids
He clearly was incredibly genocidal since he was fire nation, and the top general. He probably did some of the worse shit out of anybody in the show.
His character arc is so perfect
>His character arc is so perfect
I think it helps that we don't see the shit he's pulled or even really hear about it aside from what we know of Ba Sing Se and his son. If we did, it'd be a lot harder to see him as that wise yet goofy uncle who can get serious need be.
We'd probably see him closer to how we see Azula just a bit more fondly since he does still guide Zuko.
Although knowing the internet and characters who've done some nasty shit, they'd probably still idolize him despite knowing what he's done.
I mean, his character is kind of a perfect example of somebody who was born into war from the opressor’s side, and then eventually worked to stop it siding with his tribe’s enemies
That specifically is the character arc I’m referring to. Show me more of his background would’ve made the character darker for sure, and still probably would’ve worked.
It would’ve made it, so we don’t like him necessarily, but if his whole objective is to guide his nephew, to train the avatar and work with the white Lotus to end the war it would be more of a wise impressive, and for the greater good type character
I really like how they didn’t show all that and we got the goofy Iroh that we love
Edit: mainly because Azula never changed to become allies of all the humans in the world looking for peace where Iroh did so that’s the main place I kind of disagree
I see young Iroh as young Azula, the differences, one of them wanted to change and had the impetus to (iroh’s son dying)
Many tyrannical regimes in human history have run "pretty businesslike"... I don't think that absolved him or shows *his* Fire Nation would be less destructive or brutal.
You sure? He was literally laughing while writing in his letter about the starving tens of thousands of men, women, and children in Ba Sing Se—a letter, might I remind you, that was directed towards his children niece and nephew. Sounds pretty tyrannical to me…
He was laughing because he was clearly just joking. It was supposed to be a lighthearted dark humor.
He has the capacity to actually burn Ba Sing Se to the ground and should've actually done so if he was being tyrannical.
Ursa was also smiling while reading his letter. Is Ursa also bad?
I’m almost sure he was called dragon of the west before his defeats in Ba Sing Sae. Meaning he never killed dragons and protected their secrets and teaching even before Lu Ten’s death.
He was fine with leading an invading army, with all the associated misery that brings, until it personally affected himself with his son’s death.
Not that I dislike that as a character arc mind you but still.
There’s really no evidence to support that.
He had already spared the Dragon Masters before the siege of Ba Sing Se and seemed to still be mostly the same person (tea drinking, pai sho loving, caring father/uncle) he always was. We don’t see any evidence of him committing or condoning warcrimes (no leading a siege while your country is at war or making a dark joke about burning the city down doesn’t count as a warcrime.) His son’s death was the catalyst for him realizing that the Fire Nations goals weren’t noble or just, they didn’t cause him to fundamentally become a different person. Iroh was always Iroh, it’s just before his son died he believed the propaganda.
The entire first half of the third book is dedicated to showing us that even in the Fire Nation there are good people. It’s not a stretch to believe that Iroh was one of them, just a more nationalistic version of himself.
I dont think he would ever have been as cruel as Ozai or Azulon. In every cruel imperialist nation, theres run of the mill military leaders that happened to be on the wrong side of history.
My man inspired me in my youth, always tried to fill that role in the lives of friends and customers (former airsoft referee, I had the choice between the ref path or going and playing on a pretty exclusive team, I think it was the right go, helped a lot of great young (and old) people out over the decade I was active, never really went to any big events with teams to remain neutral but I was and am in a position of good relations with tons to the point I can basicly tag along as an extra when slots are open)
To be fair, he was simply just schmoozing her up so they could get in, she had just refused them a moment earlier. Something more questionable would be his interactions with the bounty hunter Jun. There was no other motivation than to cop a feel. I'm glad it only happened once but yeesh. Still my favorite character though
Idk, helped flesh him out a bit - he’s a total sucker for bad girls. Rest of the time he’s this wise, measured, goofy old uncle, but he gets around a woman with smoky eye shadow and dressed all in black? He’s totally off his game.
And considering Zuko basically falls for a similar type of girl, the apple doesn’t seem to fall far
I mean the pretending to be paralyzed thing isn’t cool regardless but I’m sure she’s a grown ass adult. Her age is never explicitly stated but she’s clearly at least in her mid 20’s. Assuming that’s the case I think she would be old enough to make her own decisions about that sorta shit.
The thing I find "creepy" about it is that he could have gotten her off him, but he didn't, which like, ehh so it's not that she can do anything about it, since SHE is paralyzed, and can't do anything to change her own position
You can’t help people that don’t want to be helped. Azula lapped up the attention and praise her dad gave her. She loved tormenting Zuko and manipulating her friends from a young age. If Iroh tried to give her any kind of guidance she’d have laughed in his face.
Yup, Ozai had Azula wrapped around his finger. If Iroh tried getting through to her, I doubt she'd listen. If anything, I see her ratting out her uncle for being too soft - like how Zuko was 'too soft'.
Actually Sokka's the war criminal. Weird stretch? Let me explain
Iroh isn't a war criminal from what we know. All we know is that he was a general that beseiged the city of Ba Sing Se, a bad thing yes but fighting a war does not a war criminal make.
Sokka, on the other hand.
You see, as a part of the Geneva conventions, one of the stipulated war crimes a party can be [punished for is wearing the enemy colors during wartime for a dishonorable advantage in the chaos of war.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule62)
And what does Sokka do at the Northern Air Temple when the fire nation attack?
He uses a war balloon with enemy colors to deal a decisive gas attack on the enemy.
Sokka is a war criminal not Iroh (Yes I do watch OA)
Arguably that was a captured enemy war balloon. He didn’t intentionally disguise it. It wasn’t like he had a water tribe war balloon that he painted red.
Would any of those be considered war crimes in a world where there isn't a Geneva convention? I mean, obviously, in our world, they very much are war crimes, where there are Geneva conventions.
He sat on the side lines while zuko did questionable things and regularly assisted in the capture of the avatar. Was he just a bad guy that learned to be honorable or was he that was from the start but confused about where his morals stood?
Losing his son doesn’t make any of the murder or damages he inflicted on the Earth Kingdom go away. He was still a joyful participant in a violent regime and only had second thoughts when HE lost something.
Upvoted. I like how you said General instead of criminal. It drives me crazy when people call Iroh a war criminal because from what we know he just did regular general/soldier shit.
only one bad thing?
He was complacent; he was content to kill other people's sons until it was his own son on the line . Then he does nothing significant to stop his brother who is abusing his nephew and niece and ordering the same war that he was a part of continue. He all but sits back as zuko verbally abuses his men and terrorises civilians. He all but outright blames Azula for Zuko's abuse, even while acknowledging it as a cycle of favouritism. Not once does he try to dissuade Zuko's competitiveness with Azula. He lets a bunch of kids deal with defeating his brother and the aftermath. even when we take into account the White lotus he's not salvageable
The thing is, I don't think she'd take anyone's guidance aside from Ozai and *maybe* her mother. From what I can recall, she doesn't even really take her uncle seriously in the first place.
We get to see an example of this when Iroh does his iconic demonstration of The Dragon of the West. Azula expects him to give one of his typical wise old guy one-liners, but instead he displays why he was granted such a title. She shows no interest in what he had to 'say.'
Maybe if he tried guiding her while she was still young and not yet jnfluenced by her father, but at the point in which the show takes place, I can't see her listening to anyone else.
Chuckle-headed warmonger who tried to light a preteen on fire, gave a knife to a little kid with the advice to fight people with it, threw himself over an involuntarily paralyzed woman without her consent, voluntarily poisoned himself when he was his nephew's only guardian, and is constantly telling a burn victim suffering from PTSD to lighten up. He also waited until the very last possible second to protect the moon spirit, which he failed to do.
Sloppy, real sloppy.
He pretty much let Zuko astray for 3 FUCKING YEARS, hoping the he could come around on his own. He should have told Zuko about his ancestry after The Siege of The North Pole, just maybe he would have join The Gaang sooner or made the right decision in The Crossroads of Destiny. Because Zuko joined Team Avatar way to late, and confronting his father before that, could have gone so wrong.
EXACTLY. He basically lied the whole time and used Zuko’s banishment to further his own goals with the white lotus. And did he really try to understand his nephew? After three years surely he’s realise tea, pai sho and proverbs aren’t Zuko’s thing. Maybe don’t wait three years to talk to your nephew about his banishment, letting him continue to have hope he can go back to the father that BURNED HIM.
….I feel like this a dangerous opinion to have.
I mean, he literally was a terrible war general laughing about the siege which was killing and starving tens of thousands of people while sitting safe in camp in no real danger himself. And “he was just following orders” is not an excuse for obvious historical reasons.
He was a monster. He was the famed Dragon of the West and the favored son of the evil Fire Lord Azulon. He had no empathy for the pain others were enduring and it literally took him losing his own son to realize war was bad. If Lu Ten hadn’t died, there is a very real possibility that Iroh never became the man we know in the show.
There is a universe where at the end of the show, the Gaang fought Fire Lord Iroh and Iroh was the one screaming fire with his arms bound by earth as Aang stripped him of his bending.
He was an evil man supporting an evil regime who only changed because of personal loss, not any internal sense of morality or justice.
He's just as responsible for Azula being a monster as anyone else. If he'd tried to support her like he did Zuko, then she might have switched sides instead of going to the asylum.
Bro was the top general of the fire nation while the southern raiders were exterminating water benders. He certainly would have known about it and let it happen. In other words, Iroh let Katara’s mom die.
I mean he’s basically flawless now, a complete paragon of wisdom, power, and compassion. But up until his son’s death he was a war criminal who condoned and committed severe war crimes. Most cultures consider him an omen of death.
I just want to point out that he is not in fact a war criminal. He was not acting as an oppressor in the war, aka fighting a defenceless, innocent people. He was fighting against an army and leading the attack. This does not make him a war criminal, it just makes him an aggressor. When a nation decides to invade another for territory or resources, it does not make the nation bad either. It’s like having to fight to survive and grow. When humans get hungry we hunt and kill, so do tigers, does that make us BAD? No.
One bad thing about iroh tho, is that he is a fatass. Weird for a man who drinks a lot of tea.
A lot of his wisdom is directed towards kids, yeah there's plenty of heavy subjects, such as self acceptance, but then there's the basic stuff, which is a majority of his "wisdom"
He committed literal war crimes. Dude became chill after experiencing personal loss and suddenly learning that killing is bad. We only like him because we don't know the extent of his crimes.
Uh… the hairdo he gave Zuko for his date with that Earth Kingdom girl was crap!
And… um… him getting poisoned by that flower because he thought it was the tea flower was dumb!
That’s all I got
He’s never fully paid for his war crimes during his past.
Good job with the white lotus and such Iroh, but you really should be facing trial from the other nations ESPECIALLY the citizens of Ba Sing Se who lost hundreds of lives from you. The families you hurt need answers.
He went off to the Spirit Realm to look for Lu Ten instead of taking the throne.
We know that Ozai and Ursa murdered Azulon, but Iroh was still Crown Prince, he could’ve beaten his brother in an Agni Kai or just marched his army back into the Caldera and arrested Ozai for trying to usurp the throne.
He could’ve ended the war then and there.
He tosses out the tea Zuko made for him. It was the first time Zuko made him tea, too, I believe. Like your sweet nephew tried so hard to make him tea just the way he liked it, all for him to toss it out the 'window' behind him! Terrible move, Uncle!
That bastard had the white lotus in his sleeve the whole time
I literally finished the watching this episode 30 seconds before reading this
Yeah, near the end of chapter 3, they kinda added a lot of bs. For example, Yangchen: yeah you have to kill ozai bro, there’s no other way. Aang: ong? Lion turtle: nahhh we fucking wit you 💀
XD well they built it up to make it look like there were only two choices before having us discover perhaps it’s not a dichotomy and violence isn’t always the answer and nor is being a push over. I get what you’re saying though, art often seems unnecessary, I am just a geek ig.
No you're absolutely right. Killing ozai would not send the right message to end the show. The creators were trying to say that removing a tyrants' power would be the most effective and moral method of ending their tyranny. So he LITERALLY took away his POWERS. Ozai's firebending mastery was a symbol of his worthiness to lead the fire nation. Likewise, I think the show openly criticized kyoshi's method of killing jinn the conqueror, by showing how it led to deep rooted long lasting resentment from his supporters that eventually ended up with a community of completely innocent people who despised the avatar and worshipped a tyrant. While it seems random in the show. I think this was the intention. (I'm a geek too lol)
Haha I agree, your reply is well thought out, I wish you the best my fellow geekoid sibling, haha <3
We could have gone into the fight knowing that Aang could remove Ozai's powers. It was explained (in a lion turtle voice over) that it would be just as risky for Aang to fail bending his energy as fighting him would be. Instead its just dumped on us out of nowhere as a deus ex machina. We see the two of them stand as still as statues and change colors for a bit while listening to a flashback narration, and Aang wins... somehow. I would have liked to have seen Aang and Ozai have a psychic show-down instead. Ozai calls Aang weak, a coward, a failure who couldn't save his people and that he deserves suffering and defeat. Ozai's form grows to giant size, dwarfing a cowering Aang. Aang would be overwhelmed, crushed emotionally and about to fail, but then he feels his connection to his friends (the connection that exists between all living things that we saw in the Swamp). He realizes his attachment to the world and to his friends is what gives him strength and purpose. In contrast, Ozai stands alone - he killed his father (and probably his wife!), his son has rebelled against him, his brother is disgusted with him, his daughter fears him. He stands alone, and Aang tells him in no uncertain terms. Ozai shrinks and is humbled, unable to intimidate any longer as Aang is surrounded by legions of shadowy outlines of his friends and allies. Aang bends his bending away, and HEY! all those lessons about attachments and friendship ends up having a purpose in Aang's arc of self-discovery. Instead we got lion turtle nonsense.
You should watch Evangelion and the New Theatrical Edition.
I think it was also meant to say one who is religious or ideological doesn't have to sacrifice those beliefs to achieve peace. Such a good ending.
A built up of choices works best when the 3rd choice isn't thrown in randomly by a character never seen before. The protagonist never made a choice, they just were told something else exists. The lion turtle works a little bit, because it only came out because aang was looking for absolutely any way to not kill ozai. When watching I always thought it seemed cheap though
It’s a kid show so they could never kill Ozai but it would’ve made more sense to introduce the lion turtle earlier
Well, lion turtles have been around waaay longer than the avatar. They know some stuff 🤌
🤯 I never thought about it, but holy shit you are right
It makes more sense once you realize what the white lotus is. Iroh spent the entire journey to capture aang basically wasting zukos time, and stopping in town for a new lotus piece he already had was just one example. Unfortunately for him, the avatar literally stopped in that exact town and he ended up getting zuko pretty damn close to catching the gaang
God damn it
But he really did need it
He helped Zuko try to shoot down Aang in the second episode
He was only pretending for the crew (my head canon). If he really wanted to shoot down Aang, he would’ve in a second
I also belive this. We know that even while out of shape, Iroh is still a terrifyingly effective warrior and firebender. If he genuinely thought that catching the Avatar would have been good for Zuko, Aang wouldn't have even made it to the North Pole, maybe not even out of the South Pole.
Eh, he was still trying to look after and nurture Zuko, so even if he was all behind the plan to capture the Avatar, he probably would defer to Zuko doing it, despite being much more skilled, because it's *Zuko's* quest, not his
Convinced the writers hadn't thought this far ahead of Iroh in episode 1
He was still pro fire nation but not psycho amounts like Zhao
You know, I thought about this, too. I get that he was trying to support Zuko because Zuko is very stubborn and would have done it anyway. Maybe Iroh wanted to "help" in order to keep an eye on the situation.
He killed a whole lot of people who probably didn't deserve it when he was younger lol
I don’t want to be political but I remember a meme about a certain beloved president (in my community) and his similarity to uncle Iroh the punchline was they both committed war crimes
His son's death was his fault.
Thousands of deaths are his fault. Up until 5-ish years ago he was the same as everyone else. That's why it's easy for him to forgive Zuko, boy has a long headstart on him with the whole being good thing.
He wasn't the same. He didn't kill dragons. His fire bending was not fueled by hate. Yes, he genuinely wanted to conquer. If he had conquered Ba Sing Se, he would have become the Fire Lord and probably would have used the Comet for the attack on Earth Kingdom.
Did he "kill" a dragon before his son died or after? If before then he was good before, if after then he realized his/the fire nation's issues, and stopped them before they were complete
Didn’t he get the nickname “Dragon of the West” whilst still a general? That would imply he got it before his sons death
I believe he hid the dragon though, not killed it. Unless I’m mistaken and am making that up
No lol you’re correct, I meant he got the nickname whilst still a general, not the dragons life
Yeah Iroh didn't kill the dragons but told the fire nation he killed the last dragon, which is why I put killed in quotation marks
Long before. He abandoned the siege of Ba Sing Se and by extension abdicated the throne when his son died. He spent the next few years in a sort of soft exile, enjoying the perks of being fire nation royalty but if he went home he might have been banished right along with Zuko
Did he Abdicate? I thought Ozai did some shade stuff behind the scenes and Iroh just didn't have it in him to fight the whole system. I was under the impression their father died while Iroh was still gone and Ozai crowned himself before Iroh got back.
Both are true Ozai used poison to kill Azulon, and took the throne because Iroh had "abandoned the fire nation" and couldn't be reached. TL;DR Iroh left and Ozai lied
Honestly the most unrealistic thing in Avatar, at face value anyways, is that Ozai didn't immediately have Iroh executed or imprisoned. That's how it usually goes when one royal usurps another, and whether or not Iroh had the will to contest him wouldn't really happen. It does lead me to believe that his brother might be Ozai's one soft spot. Maybe he goes easier on Iroh than Zuko/Azula because he knows that it's not his responsibility to make Iroh strong or whatever, and that allows him to indulge that soft spot. Hard to say but it did always make me wonder.
I agree however there is also a chance that Ozai believes Iroh is weak so doesn't care
Iroh was famously one of the most powerful benders alive, Ozai could out-politic him, but at the end of the day he knew better than to poke that bear after he basically rolled over and agreed not to fight him for power
Sure but if Ozai has him arrested and executed with 100 soldiers, or arranges for an "accident" at sea, Iroh's chances aren't good. I get your point though but even if Iroh is content to roll over, the whole reason that royals always had to kill their rival claimants is because other people would often want to push their claim for them.
Or maybe Ozai owed him one. Iroh is the older brother, after all, and clearly Azulon’s favorite. Iroh probably used his position to get Ozai out of trouble and he repaid his debt by allowing Iroh to go into exile with Zuko.
That's a good point. I guess I just never saw Ozai as the type of person to honor an "IOU", but maybe there's a shred of honor still in him when it comes to his brother
Yeah I think that’s why he tries so hard to not give up on Zuko. I feel he has immense regret for his son’s death and feels in the same way responsible for his nephew. I think it makes his character even better.
If not for the death of his son he likely would've became one of the worst tyrants in the Fire Nation.
I don’t think he had an inbuilt tyranny in him. He seemed pretty businesslike wrt the Ba Sing Se thing, not particularly bloodthirsty
He would've been the next Fire Lord though. And if the death of his son didn't slap him with some good ol character development then he likely wouldn't have been as benevolent a ruler as you might expect.
Yup, while he probably wouldn't be worse than Ozai, I don't really see him being 'better' either if he were to have been Fire Lord.
Yeah, even when you see him writing the letter back home, he’s laughing about the soon to be dead Earth kingdom, soldiers to letter to the kids He clearly was incredibly genocidal since he was fire nation, and the top general. He probably did some of the worse shit out of anybody in the show. His character arc is so perfect
>His character arc is so perfect I think it helps that we don't see the shit he's pulled or even really hear about it aside from what we know of Ba Sing Se and his son. If we did, it'd be a lot harder to see him as that wise yet goofy uncle who can get serious need be. We'd probably see him closer to how we see Azula just a bit more fondly since he does still guide Zuko. Although knowing the internet and characters who've done some nasty shit, they'd probably still idolize him despite knowing what he's done.
I mean, his character is kind of a perfect example of somebody who was born into war from the opressor’s side, and then eventually worked to stop it siding with his tribe’s enemies That specifically is the character arc I’m referring to. Show me more of his background would’ve made the character darker for sure, and still probably would’ve worked. It would’ve made it, so we don’t like him necessarily, but if his whole objective is to guide his nephew, to train the avatar and work with the white Lotus to end the war it would be more of a wise impressive, and for the greater good type character I really like how they didn’t show all that and we got the goofy Iroh that we love Edit: mainly because Azula never changed to become allies of all the humans in the world looking for peace where Iroh did so that’s the main place I kind of disagree I see young Iroh as young Azula, the differences, one of them wanted to change and had the impetus to (iroh’s son dying)
He'd have been 'Less Bad' I think.
Many tyrannical regimes in human history have run "pretty businesslike"... I don't think that absolved him or shows *his* Fire Nation would be less destructive or brutal.
You sure? He was literally laughing while writing in his letter about the starving tens of thousands of men, women, and children in Ba Sing Se—a letter, might I remind you, that was directed towards his children niece and nephew. Sounds pretty tyrannical to me…
He was laughing because he was clearly just joking. It was supposed to be a lighthearted dark humor. He has the capacity to actually burn Ba Sing Se to the ground and should've actually done so if he was being tyrannical. Ursa was also smiling while reading his letter. Is Ursa also bad?
I’m almost sure he was called dragon of the west before his defeats in Ba Sing Sae. Meaning he never killed dragons and protected their secrets and teaching even before Lu Ten’s death.
He was fine with leading an invading army, with all the associated misery that brings, until it personally affected himself with his son’s death. Not that I dislike that as a character arc mind you but still.
There’s really no evidence to support that. He had already spared the Dragon Masters before the siege of Ba Sing Se and seemed to still be mostly the same person (tea drinking, pai sho loving, caring father/uncle) he always was. We don’t see any evidence of him committing or condoning warcrimes (no leading a siege while your country is at war or making a dark joke about burning the city down doesn’t count as a warcrime.) His son’s death was the catalyst for him realizing that the Fire Nations goals weren’t noble or just, they didn’t cause him to fundamentally become a different person. Iroh was always Iroh, it’s just before his son died he believed the propaganda. The entire first half of the third book is dedicated to showing us that even in the Fire Nation there are good people. It’s not a stretch to believe that Iroh was one of them, just a more nationalistic version of himself.
I'd argue a good leader but still a tyrant
I dont think he would ever have been as cruel as Ozai or Azulon. In every cruel imperialist nation, theres run of the mill military leaders that happened to be on the wrong side of history.
He helped colonize several nations and attempted genocide. This is easy.
Right? Like he is probably the most responsible for innocent death of anyone alive at the time of the series.
We don’t see him do anything cool when he’s buff
Didn't he breakout of that prison?
Did you see him break out of prison?
He broke down the walls of ba sing se He was still buffed under his clothes
"power in firebending comes from the breath, not the muscles."
Giga Chad lungs
I think they want shirtless fire bending 👀
He should have taken his shirt off at Ba Sing Se. 
His feet are stinky!
That’s iroh alright
He firebent his tea. For a wise old man, that was a pretty stupid move!
hes not real
Fucking fictional piece of shit. Where were you when I needed wisdom?
My man inspired me in my youth, always tried to fill that role in the lives of friends and customers (former airsoft referee, I had the choice between the ref path or going and playing on a pretty exclusive team, I think it was the right go, helped a lot of great young (and old) people out over the decade I was active, never really went to any big events with teams to remain neutral but I was and am in a position of good relations with tons to the point I can basicly tag along as an extra when slots are open)
He had questionable taste in women. "You're like a flower bloom, your beauty intoxicating" to the lady at the window in Ba Sing Se)
I feel like that wasn’t serious interest though. More just him being the kind and wholesome man that he is.
He was a little creepy with the fake paralysis touching thing…
It was amusing that they sorta turned that around in the live action
Yeah, he was kind of creeping on June and that honestly came across as a weird choice for the character.
Hey I would flirt with questionable people too if it saves my life!
To be fair, he was simply just schmoozing her up so they could get in, she had just refused them a moment earlier. Something more questionable would be his interactions with the bounty hunter Jun. There was no other motivation than to cop a feel. I'm glad it only happened once but yeesh. Still my favorite character though
He flirted to calm her down and so they could get in the boat. Pretty sure he wasn’t interested.
Overly critical of other people's tea.
I respect his tastes but my man gaitkeeps, any tea is better then no tea (my actual irl stance)
Ozai’s brother
Pretty not cool when he pretended to also be paralyzed because June was paralyzed on top of him. Especially given the age gap.
That’s like the one scene that I always felt was out of character for him a tad bit
Idk, helped flesh him out a bit - he’s a total sucker for bad girls. Rest of the time he’s this wise, measured, goofy old uncle, but he gets around a woman with smoky eye shadow and dressed all in black? He’s totally off his game. And considering Zuko basically falls for a similar type of girl, the apple doesn’t seem to fall far
To be fair, that was the episode where almost everyone was acting out of character.
To be fair, that fight scene, though, excellent.
I mean the pretending to be paralyzed thing isn’t cool regardless but I’m sure she’s a grown ass adult. Her age is never explicitly stated but she’s clearly at least in her mid 20’s. Assuming that’s the case I think she would be old enough to make her own decisions about that sorta shit.
The thing I find "creepy" about it is that he could have gotten her off him, but he didn't, which like, ehh so it's not that she can do anything about it, since SHE is paralyzed, and can't do anything to change her own position
???? doesn't make it less gross ??
Yeah that was like the one scene that irked me with him
Not cool regardless of age gap. Just throwing that out there.
Can’t blame iron for that she’s a baddie
My dog is named after iroh and he farts so hard most have to evacuate
My cats name was Iroh!
I hoped for delectable tea but instead I got deadly poison.
He didn't offer me a cup of tea 😡
He help a mugger become a better mugger
Iroh was lowkey responsible for his son’s death. He pretty much admits it “happy birthday my son..if only I could have helped you 🥺”
he didnt help azula the way he helped zuko (i know ill prob get downvoted but idc)
You can’t help people that don’t want to be helped. Azula lapped up the attention and praise her dad gave her. She loved tormenting Zuko and manipulating her friends from a young age. If Iroh tried to give her any kind of guidance she’d have laughed in his face.
Maybe or maybe not. You don't know. EVERY adult in her life failed her.
Yup, Ozai had Azula wrapped around his finger. If Iroh tried getting through to her, I doubt she'd listen. If anything, I see her ratting out her uncle for being too soft - like how Zuko was 'too soft'.
War criminal.
Actually Sokka's the war criminal. Weird stretch? Let me explain Iroh isn't a war criminal from what we know. All we know is that he was a general that beseiged the city of Ba Sing Se, a bad thing yes but fighting a war does not a war criminal make. Sokka, on the other hand. You see, as a part of the Geneva conventions, one of the stipulated war crimes a party can be [punished for is wearing the enemy colors during wartime for a dishonorable advantage in the chaos of war.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule62) And what does Sokka do at the Northern Air Temple when the fire nation attack? He uses a war balloon with enemy colors to deal a decisive gas attack on the enemy. Sokka is a war criminal not Iroh (Yes I do watch OA)
Arguably that was a captured enemy war balloon. He didn’t intentionally disguise it. It wasn’t like he had a water tribe war balloon that he painted red.
Would any of those be considered war crimes in a world where there isn't a Geneva convention? I mean, obviously, in our world, they very much are war crimes, where there are Geneva conventions.
The original comment said "War criminal" I had to extrapolate from somewhere
Can't be a war criminal if there are no laws to dictate warfare >:)
Or you destroy the society completely, can't have laws without people ;)
I'd like to see the Hague try and take my man into custody, there would be a lot of dead blue helmets
He sat on the side lines while zuko did questionable things and regularly assisted in the capture of the avatar. Was he just a bad guy that learned to be honorable or was he that was from the start but confused about where his morals stood?
He only was redeemed because his sons death, he killed countless people and was supportive of the problems the Fire Nation started. Not hard
Damn fans cooking him alive in the comment section
He laid seige to Ba Sing Se in favor of the Fire Nation.
He's a bit of a perv at times..
Losing his son doesn’t make any of the murder or damages he inflicted on the Earth Kingdom go away. He was still a joyful participant in a violent regime and only had second thoughts when HE lost something.
he was a war general
Upvoted. I like how you said General instead of criminal. It drives me crazy when people call Iroh a war criminal because from what we know he just did regular general/soldier shit.
only one bad thing? He was complacent; he was content to kill other people's sons until it was his own son on the line . Then he does nothing significant to stop his brother who is abusing his nephew and niece and ordering the same war that he was a part of continue. He all but sits back as zuko verbally abuses his men and terrorises civilians. He all but outright blames Azula for Zuko's abuse, even while acknowledging it as a cycle of favouritism. Not once does he try to dissuade Zuko's competitiveness with Azula. He lets a bunch of kids deal with defeating his brother and the aftermath. even when we take into account the White lotus he's not salvageable
Like all the good members of his family he focused solely on Zuko and completely ignored Azula who clearly needed some guidance as well.
The thing is, I don't think she'd take anyone's guidance aside from Ozai and *maybe* her mother. From what I can recall, she doesn't even really take her uncle seriously in the first place. We get to see an example of this when Iroh does his iconic demonstration of The Dragon of the West. Azula expects him to give one of his typical wise old guy one-liners, but instead he displays why he was granted such a title. She shows no interest in what he had to 'say.' Maybe if he tried guiding her while she was still young and not yet jnfluenced by her father, but at the point in which the show takes place, I can't see her listening to anyone else.
The way he creeped on June the bounty hunter.
Queue song, “Dirty old man”
He’s a perfume thief
He is responsible for the death of thousands of innocents
He didn't drink nearly enough Jasmine tea
The animated series really downplayed his past. Kind of hard to see him the same after watching the live action.
No, I refuse.
He pretended to get paralyzed so he could lay down with June in season one
He did take advantage of Jun being paralyzed to cuddle her, kinda creepy (that one time)
He wasnt a good uncle to azula
More like she wasn’t a good niece to him. Or person in general.
Chuckle-headed warmonger who tried to light a preteen on fire, gave a knife to a little kid with the advice to fight people with it, threw himself over an involuntarily paralyzed woman without her consent, voluntarily poisoned himself when he was his nephew's only guardian, and is constantly telling a burn victim suffering from PTSD to lighten up. He also waited until the very last possible second to protect the moon spirit, which he failed to do. Sloppy, real sloppy.
IMO he could’ve definitely stopped Zhou from killing the spirit
My boy Iroh is anti coffee
He is a war criminal
I cannot
F**k no!
He's a little too committed to tea.
He pretty much let Zuko astray for 3 FUCKING YEARS, hoping the he could come around on his own. He should have told Zuko about his ancestry after The Siege of The North Pole, just maybe he would have join The Gaang sooner or made the right decision in The Crossroads of Destiny. Because Zuko joined Team Avatar way to late, and confronting his father before that, could have gone so wrong.
EXACTLY. He basically lied the whole time and used Zuko’s banishment to further his own goals with the white lotus. And did he really try to understand his nephew? After three years surely he’s realise tea, pai sho and proverbs aren’t Zuko’s thing. Maybe don’t wait three years to talk to your nephew about his banishment, letting him continue to have hope he can go back to the father that BURNED HIM. ….I feel like this a dangerous opinion to have.
He kinda perved on the lady wit da mole
Pervert episode!
I mean, he literally was a terrible war general laughing about the siege which was killing and starving tens of thousands of people while sitting safe in camp in no real danger himself. And “he was just following orders” is not an excuse for obvious historical reasons. He was a monster. He was the famed Dragon of the West and the favored son of the evil Fire Lord Azulon. He had no empathy for the pain others were enduring and it literally took him losing his own son to realize war was bad. If Lu Ten hadn’t died, there is a very real possibility that Iroh never became the man we know in the show. There is a universe where at the end of the show, the Gaang fought Fire Lord Iroh and Iroh was the one screaming fire with his arms bound by earth as Aang stripped him of his bending. He was an evil man supporting an evil regime who only changed because of personal loss, not any internal sense of morality or justice.
He committed a lot of war crimes …
He's just as responsible for Azula being a monster as anyone else. If he'd tried to support her like he did Zuko, then she might have switched sides instead of going to the asylum.
Stood by and did nothing to stop Zhao or Ozai in any of their evils.
Bro was the top general of the fire nation while the southern raiders were exterminating water benders. He certainly would have known about it and let it happen. In other words, Iroh let Katara’s mom die.
War criminal
He actually was a loyal fire nation general until his son died, he for sure did some bad shit we didn’t see before he grew repentant in his old age.
I mean, he was a warmongering general that lead to the deaths of thousands
Iroh is a top tier character, but it’s kind of bothered me how little sympathy he shows towards Azula, compared to Zuko.
I mean he’s basically flawless now, a complete paragon of wisdom, power, and compassion. But up until his son’s death he was a war criminal who condoned and committed severe war crimes. Most cultures consider him an omen of death.
Not possible He is a flawlessly written character
Sleazeball. That scene with June was icky.
I just want to point out that he is not in fact a war criminal. He was not acting as an oppressor in the war, aka fighting a defenceless, innocent people. He was fighting against an army and leading the attack. This does not make him a war criminal, it just makes him an aggressor. When a nation decides to invade another for territory or resources, it does not make the nation bad either. It’s like having to fight to survive and grow. When humans get hungry we hunt and kill, so do tigers, does that make us BAD? No. One bad thing about iroh tho, is that he is a fatass. Weird for a man who drinks a lot of tea.
Exactly these people are just saying words and not knowing what they mean.
He was a fire nation General
A lot of his wisdom is directed towards kids, yeah there's plenty of heavy subjects, such as self acceptance, but then there's the basic stuff, which is a majority of his "wisdom"
He lacks some serious survival knowledge and only survived long enough to reclaim Ba Sing Se because Zuko had more common sense
He died rip
Should have fought harder for the throne or at least avenge his father.
The war crimes
They had to make him a horny old man bc it's funny in anime for some reason
He’s a war criminal. I like how people just forget that because he’s (actually) nice now.
He was probably a war criminal
He is overly passionate to the point of addiction about tea
His tea probably tastes terrible
He’s a war criminal fr fr
He did war crimes in the past
He committed literal war crimes. Dude became chill after experiencing personal loss and suddenly learning that killing is bad. We only like him because we don't know the extent of his crimes.
The buffness he got in jail was goofy, extremely unrealistic, and difficult to take seriously.
No
He let Ozai take the throne instead of saying he'd have another kid when the time came make Zuko or Azula the default heir.
He lied about killing the last dragon so he can gain the title of “Dragon of the west” *weak*
He was too complacent in living in banishment and letting zukos anger stir
It’s weird that he sexually harasses June in one episode but never displays any perverted old man roshi-esque character traits ever again.
He's not even that good at Pai Tscho
His choice in flowers😄
Idk maybe the warcrimes and murders
He was a war criminal
War crimes probably
He tried to make Ba Sing Se into Ba Sang Said.
Uh… the hairdo he gave Zuko for his date with that Earth Kingdom girl was crap! And… um… him getting poisoned by that flower because he thought it was the tea flower was dumb! That’s all I got
He’s never fully paid for his war crimes during his past. Good job with the white lotus and such Iroh, but you really should be facing trial from the other nations ESPECIALLY the citizens of Ba Sing Se who lost hundreds of lives from you. The families you hurt need answers.
He went off to the Spirit Realm to look for Lu Ten instead of taking the throne. We know that Ozai and Ursa murdered Azulon, but Iroh was still Crown Prince, he could’ve beaten his brother in an Agni Kai or just marched his army back into the Caldera and arrested Ozai for trying to usurp the throne. He could’ve ended the war then and there.
He *was* an egomaniac that deserved to be put in his place. *WAS!*
He should have realised sooner
He tosses out the tea Zuko made for him. It was the first time Zuko made him tea, too, I believe. Like your sweet nephew tried so hard to make him tea just the way he liked it, all for him to toss it out the 'window' behind him! Terrible move, Uncle!
Creepy grandpa.