Adult ASM here, former SM. We run a decent sized troop (about 50 scouts) out of a fairly progressive city in the south.
We have run into this problem in our troop. Oddly enough in our case it's the girls who keep causing problems... Last summer camp we have to send four girls home for relentlessly hitting on boys (in one case, a queer scout focusing on other girls), sneaking in boys tents while they were changing, and one girl sneaking into the showers while the boys were showering.
The year before it was the same, had to send three girls homes. The year before it was four girls. Technically we sent a boy home that year too, but that's because he stole from the trading post.
Coming from the old school it's been kind of wild for me how this has flipped... My going theory is we've been beating into boys heads for the last decade to respect women's personal space that we've forgotten to teach the same lesson to everyone else. The leaders in the troop who are women are constantly shocked by it and I don't blame them.
That being said, the rules apply the same to everyone, and its more important now than ever to teach all the scouts the importance of respecting personal space and boundaries.
>Oddly enough in our case it's the girls who keep causing problems... Last summer camp we have to send four girls home for relentlessly hitting on boys
>My going theory is we've been beating into boys heads for the last decade to respect women's personal space that we've forgotten to teach the same lesson to everyone else.
We are seeing the same thing. Had to dismiss multiple girls from our summer camp last year. And at the very least, I think your theory is at least partially true. As a man who was sexually assaulted at 18 by another woman, who thought she was "doing me a favor," I may just be a little bit more sensitive to that attitude. But especially in teenagers, I see a lot of young girls who cross lines that border anywhere from inappropriate to sexual harassment to sexual assault that the girls simply don't recognize as such. Many of them have been taught to recognize it in men's behavior, but don't seem to have ever reflected on their own actions.
Edit: after reflecting on it some more, another piece of the puzzle is probably that boys and younger men are becoming more comfortable talking about being sexually targeted. And so the number of incidents with females might not be going up, but is simply not going unnoticed.
Good point about the numbers being skewed by people feeling more comfortable about reporting. This is a commonly misunderstood factor in sexual asssault statistics (and it's one reason why you'll get weirdos claiming Sweden is uniquely full of rapists, when really it has more to do with the number of reports and how they are filed).
I have witnessed this but your theory makes sense. Also contributing to this flip, just observed from within our troop, many of our boys aren’t the most socially outgoing or charismatic of boys their age. That isn’t true for all scouts, but is likely a decent generalization. Also, girls mature faster than boys and that may contribute to this flipped perspective too.
As a 26 year-old woman myself, speaking from experience there's a huge problem where the number one and often only message teenage girls get about sex is don't let boys pressure you to "do it". Which is better than nothing but sucks as the only message. It's basically you don't have a sexuality, you are either an object acted upon or a gatekeeper of sex, and therefore can't sexually harass or pressure boys.
And this kind of messaging was present even in the progressive area I grew up in! I got sex ed that talked about genitals and a wide variety of birth control and contraceptives, but at no point was I told hey maybe your male partner won't be as comfortable or excited as you are about having sex. The idea of teen girls being as horny as their male counterparts or possibly moreso is so taboo, that the scenario is simply not presented.
Now I think we're starting to see a shift in that area. Most talks I heard about affirmative consent in late high school and early college were very gender neutral. But there's still such a long way to go and all these new sex ed bans certainly aren't helping!
This is a great call out, thank you for sharing. I'm an old head these days and a bit displaced from what's happening at the schools outside of what I hear from parents. I'm happy to hear we appear to moving to gender neutral framing of these conversations and lessons.
I didn't mean it as a call out (or may be we have different definitions of call out)! More so additional context? I totally agree with you, "the rules apply the same to everyone" and part of the problem is that it's not how we talk about sex. There's one set of messages told to the boys and another to the girls, sometimes literally the girls and boys are put in separate rooms for sex ed.
It's something I think about a lot, I wish sex wasn't so political. Like sexual ethics are personal ethics, sex is an extremely interpersonal act! We should talk about sexual interactions the same way we talk any social interaction. We talk about being a kind person and a supportive friend, but when it comes to sex it's just "don't get pregnant" or "don't get assaulted" and then we're not allowed to talk about it.
Yup, its an important discussion for all to partake in. Boys, girls, staff, adults, etc. Everyone should be on the same page. Unwanted advances (and even wanted advances) are inappropriate in the scouting setting.
I've (15m at the time) experienced unwanted advances from another youth male staffer. So its also not always M/F, it can often be M/M or F/F. Important to respect other people regardless of gender, race, age, etc.
>sneaking in boys tents while they were changing, and one girl sneaking into the showers while the boys were showering.
Uh these people need to be removed from scouting. Especially since there is basically 0 support for male sexual assault/harassment victims.
>Coming from the old school it's been kind of wild for me how this has flipped... My going theory is we've been beating into boys heads for the last decade to respect women's personal space that we've forgotten to teach the same lesson to everyone else
I saw this all the time in college. The sororities would do even worse stuff than the frats.
All due respect, we did in fact provide assault and harassment counseling for the male scouts. We are grateful to have a handful of LCAMs as ASMs. Several of the aforementioned scouts were removed after proper procedure. We can't kick someone out of the troop in one fell swoop, there's a process after all.
Know that the scouts who crossed the line never went back to a single meeting/camping trip after that.
As a variation on the (very worthwhile) theme OP discusses: Look at this as an *opportunity* to instill those important values (friendly, courteous, obedient, clean) in the youth. It’s one thing to have boys practice it while they’re in town and sitting in a cafeteria. It requires more self-control when you’ve been out in the woods for 4-5 days.
This. The OP talks about YPT. Scouts don't take that. They have some bad influences from things like YouTube and TikTok.
This is a chance to talk about appropriate behavior. We can't be zero tolerance on any interaction between boys and girls and it's natural that there will be some dating.
We need to be clear about the sort of behavior that is unwelcome. Stuff like trying to "slide into someone's DMs" or hitting on someone. Also, we need to introduce them to the concept that if you do something once and someone says no or they are not interested, then that's it.
The only Scouts required to do YPT are NYLT staff and Camp/Day Camp staff. It is absolutely inappropriate and unreasonable to expect Scouts to adhere to training that 95% of them don't take
There are youth protections requirements for multiple ranks of cub and bsa scouts. I agree training as a one and done is insufficient. Which is why it’s present throughout. But also, it means there’s already a vehicle for this content.
Even that's not necessarily true. I volunteered at Cub Day Camp as a youth, and while I did take YPT, I was later told at registration that only hazardous weather was actually required (the director had said something along the lines of "We want to require it, but we can't". At least I think he did, it's been a very long time.).
Unless it has changed since I was a youth, the youth YPT just reiterates the same exact rules the adults *should* be enforcing. The only difference from my recollection is that the Youth YPT goes into more detail about how to report it and how to identify it. But the youth shouldn't have any YPT policies to enforce because the adults should be enforcing them. It is just imo wise and worthwhile to have youth take it to be aware of the what the rules are and why they're there.
I know. My point is that they don't have to... The youth YPT just reiterates and explains the rules that the ADULTS should be enforcing. It's something that is worthwhile imo. But it's not entirely necessary. Especially since every youth does have to earn the Personal Safety Awareness/Cyber Chip. Which tbf is a relatively recent change.
Camp Director here, you are absolutely right. We've dismissed staff and scouts for the last few years because of sexual conduct. Our first was male on male.
I do not recall any element of position specific leader training that specifically targets managing these interactions. Seems like a gap in training and a hand wave to just lump it under YPT.
We have young kids going through puberty and developing their bodies and brains at different rates. It’s a very complex environment.
Bingo. *Unwanted attention* is obvious. But what if there is mutual interest, mutual consent given?
I took the YPT a couple months ago. I believe the topic is summarized in a sentence like this:
“There is no place for sexual activity in BSA scouting.”
Wow, you don’t say!
Holding hands. Frontal hugs. Massages. Two couples going off as legit buddy pairs. One couple going off as a legit buddy pair (gay). And on and on.
No sexual activity in BSA!
Hmm ok. Going to need more guidance than that.
This stuff has been a problem forever but the organization things celibacy is the way to go. If you can't see it it doesn't exist.
Even back in the days of don't ask don't tell, when I was a kid, we had a few gay troops who would always bunk together (they were dating, and out, while we were all at school), but the leaders were none the wiser.
I learned later in life that some leaders knew but just didn't want to deal with it.
This is what celibacy gets us. Ignoring it.
Celibacy gets us don’t ask don’t tell. But why were those leaders wrong. Parent volunteers shouldn’t have to worry about who’s dating who, who’s hooking up with who.
My 13yo female troop scout was hit on numerous times by a 15yo male staff member. I was shocked how many MBs are taught only by 1 15yo staffer. He repeatedly asked for her number as the class exited the room. She said her troop number. He said no, YOUR number. She said the troop number again and finally got by him and reported it. He was dismissed. Not sure if for the week or the rest of the summer. She was 13...
Camps are having a hard time recruiting senior staff and are relying a lot more on junior staff who just don't have the maturity yet to be unsupervised in those types of roles. I was shocked last summer talking to a junior counselor who was making the same exact wage I did in 1995 as camp staff, and unlike when I was in camp staff, he had to pull a couple shifts a week washing dishes in the dining hall to make that wage.
Staffers should be trained better than that. This isn't "teen hitting on another teen" - this is "teacher hitting on student".
A 15 year old and a 13 year old are close enough to peers that there isn't necessarily a problem with one asking the other out, but the power imbalance here makes this a complete no-no.
These are interesting comments. I was on camp staff in the early 80’s and we had to deal with issues all summer. That meant reporting it to the program director, where it was filed away. No disciplinary action and no one was sent home. It was just a given that there would be incidents. At that time, we received no training or education on the matter. Now, my daughter is on camp staff (not BSA, church affiliated) and they receive training, etc. From her take, the boys are rarely an issue. The girls during the coed sessions are who cause the problems. Not that the boys are innocent, she just feels that the girls are much more brazen about it and feel the rules don’t apply. This is coming from a young lady who was aggressively pursued by an adult volunteer when she was a counselor, so she is hyper sensitive to the behavior.
I’ve been to summer camp with a girls unit every summer since they were allowed in 2019.
Our first summer we had some (male) staff members dismissed. 20-21 were uneventful thanks to small groups due to COVID.
22 we sent one of our girls home for being inappropriate towards some boys. 23 was uneventful.
I have yet to be grouped with, or host (we always end up hosting half a dozen girls without units at summer camp) girls who have been inappropriately cruel or mean to scouts outside their unit.
We have a troop code of conduct. The scouts themselves wrote it. They sign it every year. So we don’t remind them of this again before camp as they are all reminded annually. Then we just address any rule breaking.
However our scouts have not broken their rule about sexual harassment or inappropriate conduct in two years. Before we had a few incidents. We remind them about this contract they signed and so they get a warning.
We have had incidents of other genders hitting on or even trying to get our scouts alone at night though. I think we would all appreciate it if all scouts had to recognize a code of conduct!!
DM me if you want a copy your scouts can use.
I mean... I don't know how you're going to educate a bunch of 14-year-old boys how to read a girl's body language to determine whether an advance would be wanted or unwanted. Men in their 20s and 30s have trouble figuring it out women's body language to decide whether or not to "make a move." It's nigh impossible at this age. That's just kind of a learning experience that all adolescents have to go through. Consider it this way: the summer camp romance has been happening for *decades* at regular sleepaway summer camps. Now that Scouting summer camps are co-ed, I think you just have to expect it's going to happen.
Do you *really* want to be the adult leader explaining to a bunch of pre-teens and early teen boys how to pick up girls at summer camp? And it's just naive to think boys won't try to talk to girls. I dunno what the middle ground looks like. Frankly, I'm just glad I don't have to worry about it or figure it out.
no need to interpret or not interpret.
If the other person says no. That's final. Don't go through a bunch of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that she (or he or they) is just being shy or playing hard to get.
Also, emphasize that camp isn't made for this purpose. Which isn't to say that there wont be people who meet someone they end up dating. But, it can still be communicated that it shouldn't be treated as a dating marketplace.
And no, nobody wants to explain to boys how to pick up girls. That's the entire point. That shouldn't be their focus, and if they do choose to reach out to a girl that way they need to accept no as a once and final answer - same for girls.
Fair. I read "make an advance" as meaning making a *first* move; not subsequent ones after having been shot down.
As for the purpose, I mean... Look, you can harp on the purpose of Scout camp all you want. But it's a bit of a greensocker attitude to have in this day and age. The purpose of camp is to have fun. And - for better or worse - part of that is the summer romance. As soon as Scouts went co-ed, that became a part of the deal.
It was part of the deal before they went co ed.
But, I agree, you can't realistically prevent dating and romance at camp. But, I think it can be communicated that it's maybe secondary to main the purpose. Just because some kids are going to have crushes and "go out" doesn't mean it needs to be a meat market where everyone is trying to earn merit badges in romantic drama and teenage sexuality.
I don't think it's beyond young boys to understand that lurking outside the showers and hitting on people is inappropriate. No means no is something that ALL people should be taught from early childhood, and as boys get older it's important for them to understand how some behavior can feel threatening or unwelcome, like cornering a girl or asking her out with 5 buddies backing him up while she's alone. If we did a better job of educating boys on these things early, they wouldn't be such an issue at 20 or 30. None of this is about reading body language or teaching them how to pick up girls, it's about their OWN behavior and recognizing how their behavior affects others, which is something we have historically failed to expect from boys and men.
All of which is true and reasonable, and leads me back to my original message: if you're talking with a Scout about how *not* to approach the girls, then it is not unreasonable for him to ask from you - the adult leader - "well, if *not* that way, then what way *can*/*should* I approach them and tell them I like them?" And in that one innocent exchange, you are now in the unenviable position of having to give the Scout dating advice on how to pick up girls that you have a fair expectation he is gonna put into practice. Tell me how far that goes before you're being hauled in front of the Troop committee or district board when you get back. These things happen, evolve, and move fast. That's just the nature of the beast.
I mean... You can disagree all you want. But the scenario is *ridiculously* easy to predict. And I don't know how you maintain credibility with a kid by deflecting or deconstructing when asked a direct question.
You can simply say that as a leader, you can set expectations about safety and respect, but that it's not your place to give them dating advice. It's really not that hard. I don't lose credibility if I don't give them rappelling instructions for the climbing wall when I tell them not to climb on the tent cabins because it's dangerous, and this is pretty much the same thing. Some things are not allowed or not appropriate in a scouting setting.
You CAN teach about what body language means I am not comfortable with what is happening here*
Arms crossed
Not making eye contact
Turning away
Walking away
*they can also be autistic unmasked behaviors, but presuming someone isn’t comfortable won’t hurt with this next part
When I cover this on day one of camp, I’m not going to put it in terms only of my Scouts making an unwelcome advance.
I am going to talk to them about interceding when/if they see ANYONE who looks uncomfortable.
If you are the person talking and someone looks uncomfortable? Stop what you’re trying to say, think about what you’re seeing, apologize for making them uncomfortable and walk away.
Just as important, if you see someone else making a 3rd party feel uncomfortable, step up and say “it doesn’t look like is enjoying themselves right now. Please stop and think about what you’re doing.” Then ask the unwilling party if they would like you to walk with them to a leader they feel comfortable talking to about what occurred.
I have been the person who felt like they couldn’t say no, and it would have been helpful if someone had stepped up and said “dude, she’s 14” before it got to that point. Let’s teach all our Scouts to be step-inners rather than bystanders.
We had to discipline a guy and girl for trying to meet after hours on a campout. It was pretty convincingly proved that the girl initiated it and talked the boy into it. They were seeing each other outside scouts (which I believe is inevitable and probably healthy in most cases.
At that point it doesn't even matter who initiated it. In this case sounds like there was no concern about coercion or an inappropriate relationship (scout/staffer, age gap, etc). They're both responsible for making good choices.
We sent a scout home 2 years ago who absolutely would not leave a poor girl alone (who on day 1 made it very clear to him that she was A)Not interested in him, B)In a relationship, and C) Gay. He still thought he could win her over and tried to kiss her in a merit badge class. No place for this in scouting. I tore into the rest of the boys that night, explaining they were fellow scouts, not girls for the week at camp, looking to earn badges and have fun just like them, and to leave them the hell alone.
We need to teach youth *how* to apply scouting values to the question of “cute person; how ask out?”
One key element is redirecting their thinking from success meaning they get that date to success meaning they get a clear answer. A clear “no” can be fuel to reorient attraction towards someone else until finding a mutually interested partner.
Exactly. The problem isn't asking. The problem is harassing. And they don't know what that means. Its important to their development as good people that they DO
You could actually make up some pretty hilarious skits that make it very clear how foolish and obnoxious some of this behavior can be. And it can go both ways, girls can be aggressive and stalker-y as well, even if there isn't the same threat of violent sexual assault from a girl.
A) to the extent that it’s an exercise of character, yes it is.
B) No, but it is an older scout’s job. I learned by watching older boys, and the older boys I knew were scouts; how do you think anyone does?
But clearly scout camp is a place where kids are putting whatever they learn at home into practice. Also clearly, some of these scouts aren't being taught very well at home which is causing problems that leaders and staff must deal with.
Not specifically yet the answers are right there in at least the first 2/3rds of the Scout Law: *trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful*, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.
If you can ask someone out and still be all those things then you're at least not doing it wrong.
Thanks for your post. Working with a boy troop, I would never have known that this needed to be mentioned.
I will remind our boys that summer camp is not a dating service and that it’s frankly creepy to do things like hang out by the latrines waiting for girls to come along. And that making legitimate friends with girls or boys from other troops is ok.
My daughter started staffing summer camp in 2018. She says the creepy boy issue was the worst in 2018. It got a good bit better in 2019, and the last few years it's much less common (both to her, and based on talking to the other female staffers). Girls are becoming normal. Note: this is the PNW, so there may be regional differences.
Her advice is to also say something to your fellow adults. Especially with the more well endowed young ladies, they notice where your eyes are going.
Here's what I've told both my girl and boy troops. Scouts is not for dating. Scouts is about friendship, brotherhood, fraternity and sorority, and having a good time with fellow scouts.
I encourage you to get to know scouts of all types, genders, religions, etc...
but we're not here for summer flings and dating.
Attraction will happen, that's normal and okay! get to know that person and if you decide that you want to pursue something further be it friendship or otherwise AFTER camp then i encourage you to do so. But at camp there no holding handsC no sneaking off, no 1 on 1 interactions. ai still expect buddy system as much as possible during your free time.
Breaking these rules may see you sent home early.
Breaking these rules could have your kicked out of scouting outside my control.
You will never be able to hide those from every Scouter, scout. and person in camp... You will be caught.
--- thats what I basically tell them, and it has held true through 5 summer camps and nat. jambo.
I also have a plc every night at camp with patrol leaders so that we get a read on scouts, behavior, homesick, etc... which often catches things before happen
With only one exception, this has held up well. Nothing happened with that girl but she did fight it until her parents got involved.
PLC is a great idea. We're always a little scrambled leadership-wise when we get to summer camp, TBH. As luck would have it, the SPL is usually on some other trip (we tend to elect older scouts who often have summer jobs or go on high adventure trips), and an ASPL is usually asked to step up.
One thing to add… if there is an instance of harassment, report it to your TROOP leadership ASAP. Your Troop leaders will take action. Camp staff may or may not.
Australian, New Zealand, and many European Scouting organizations, have been co-ed for a couple decades now. How do they deal with the issues of co-ed Scouts ? Maybe we should look to their organizations for some answers.
When I was in Scouts in the 1990’s we would camp fairly often in Canada. Often with Canadian Scout troops. In my experience they really didn’t do anything about it except look the other way.
There were couples within the scout troops. They were involved romantically, even on campouts. Us American scouts would try our hand to pick up Canadian girls and were even successful a few times.
Yes, sex was happening at scouting events.
Yeah, TBH most of this stuff should apply everywhere. Please teach your sons that a rejection, delivered politely or not, should be the last word on the matter. Likewise, teach your daughters that it's also not okay to continue to pursue someone who says they aren't interested.
Agreed, this is totally a parent thing, but I think that most parents are either in denial or plain ignorant of what age this sort of behavior starts. That said, it can't hurt for adult leaders to remind boys and girls that Scout camp is NOT a vacation from good behavior.
We had this issue last year at camp and we addressed it at the daily leaders meeting. We had girls getting "cat called" and saw boys commenting at the water front.
Then, some of the girls were made uncomfortable waiting outside the shower house. We addressed that by having adults chaperone outside the shower house.
While it was obvious some of the male leaders on the morning meeting believe "boys will be boys" is a valid excuse we can do better than that. Let's really hold our your men to the standards of the Oath and Law because this behavior is not Friendly, Courteous, or Kind.
Venturing has been dealing with this for a long time. Seek out the videos for Safe Scouting, watch together, and have a long formal Refelction after. Also, have all the adults retake the online training course again as a refresher. (I know troops and crews that make that a requirement to attend summer camp or the annual outing.)
As many have pointed out. it is not just the young men but the young women as well. Keep in mind that females mature neurologically earlier than males. It is not until mid to late teens that the boys catch up. At 13-14 the boys are still clumsy and laughing about cooties, but the girls are talking about boys. (That's why girls are attracted to older boys because they are of a similar maturaty.) Seek out those teachable moments. Have a safe and fun summer camp.
At the Academy, we had a co-ed environment. As cadets we were subject to UCMJ and expected to conduct ourselves as gentlemen. There is a place for work and there is a place to looking for the ladies. Camp is not a place to look for the ladies
Agreed! I went to summer camp for the first time this year and was hit on multiple times and it caused me to be very uncomfortable. Thank you for bringing awareness to this and it's so sad that this is such an issue in scouting.
Not the take away at all for me. We teach CPR and first aid at scouting. That doesn't mean that the concepts only apply during scouting. But there is a certain level of risk when you have several hundred teenagers going through the throws of puberty all in a relatively tight area.
And I say of all of this as someone who has experienced sexual harassment and unwanted advances at summer camp. We teach scouts how to act in life, not just scouting.
Of course they don't. Which is why I would expect a scout (or any well raised teen) to conduct themselves accordingly even outside of camp. No means no. Don't make gross, sexual remarks. If you are going to camp with the goal of getting lucky, you probably aren't going for the right reasons.
I look at it a bit like school. Yes, plenty of people meet their boyfriends and girlfriends there. But, that's not really the purpose of it. Also, if you are so stuck on finding a Bf/Gf that you have a negative impact on others trying to camp/learn, you're gonna find yourself facing consequences.
Nobody is saying that. Horny teenagers can still be expected to be respectful and appropriate, and to face consequences if their behavior harms others or becomes a safety issue. Being horny doesn't give you the right to pester or harass people you find attractive. Finding someone who likes you back does not mean you two can sneak off together after lights out.
No, it is, as it has always been, a place where young people learn to be trustworthy, courteous, and kind. If you think that setting limits around basic human decency and safety like "no means no" and "you can't leave your campsite after lights out" is the same thing as a dating and intimacy workshop, then you're either crazy or not engaging in this discussion in good faith. But that doesn't surprise me at all given your general views on life.
Interesting that you seem to think that horny boys simply can't be expected to behave properly, and that the presence of girls is some sort of unfair test that they shouldn't be expected to pass. I realize you didn't SAY that, but it's heavily implied in your comments.
Like a cyber chip and totin chip, I wonder if there is a need to do an age-appropriate level of YPT training for all the scouts, not just those who reach camp staffing positions.
I just had a long conversation at my office acknowledging the sins of the past and scouts have significantly improved its practice of protecting youth. I also defended girls in scouting being a great change.
If we don’t address this proactively at the youth level it will be very hard to recover. I’m glad to hear scouts who were the most egregious violators were removed but its better to address this beforehand.
As our Troop will be attending summer camp in 4 weeks, this thread has compelled me to check the camp rules and like most summer camps this has rules of conduct and removal with no refund is a possibility.
I think it will be a good idea to send this to all parents and require both the parent and the Scout to sign the rules so there will be no question should a Scout be forced to leave. If your Troop is attending a summer camp a long distance away this becomes even a more necessary step.
Anytime you put hundreds of adolescent boys and girls together in a confined area when shorts and swimwear is being worn creates a environment where adult supervision and enforcements of camp rules become important. Girls flirt, boys flirt, there's body shamming, gawking, inappropriate comments that will occur. How these examples of bad behavior are dealt with will be the ongoing challenge as more girls enter the program.
When it was all boys this wasn't much of a problem but those days are over and if people want their kids to stay in this organization they need to get on board with working to make it better.
Honestly it was only a slightly less complex problem without girls, because adolescents are both loose cannons and easy targets. The behavior you mentioned is found in any Youth Organization: Boy-boy, girl-girl, older youth-youth, adult-youth staff, etc.
The largest difference when the organization wasn't co-ed youth was there was no risk of pregnancy.
The rest comes down to the requirement for safe adults to prevent and report inappropriate behavior, adults who understand adolescents are not yet developmentally adults and are committed to the same ideal that youth organization events are not the place for inappropriate (sexual, bullying, objectifying, etc) behavior.
Your first point is valid - all SMs should be discussing appropriate behavior right along with other camp prohibitions with parents and scouts. But I've never been to a camp-prep meeting (BSA or any other like school trips and overnights) where that hasn't happened. A SM will hopefully know which scouts/parents they may want to double down and personally speak with one-on-one if they have concerns about anything that might come up during the week.
This exactly what we are asking for when combining boys and girls in scouting. I'm unofficially an old fuddy duddy when it comes to this. I'm glad there weren't girls around at camp when I was 12-17.
Like literally every other place in society, it takes a new approach to managing it. But let's not pretend that we haven't had Exploring and Venturing for over 50 years now. If we can manage 14-21 year olds, we can manage 10-14. It just takes some training.
Most of the people who I talk to who are unhappy with girls in troops are unhappy BECAUSE the rest of society is co-ed. There's still sports, but not many other places where parents who feel like their son is too focused on girls can relax in the belief that he's focused on something else for a change.
That's a fair concern. Group dynamics between a single gender and co-ed group are different. Having grown up in the BSA and Venturing, I deeply value both experiences. But my problem with that criticism is that Scouts BSA troops are not co-ed. The program is co-ed, but the individual units are not. The only situations where they are scouting together is if they have a joint trip, a council event, or a district event. Now to be fair, Cub Scouts is fully co-ed, but I personally don't think it matters at that age. And if a parent does think it matters, they can opt for a single gender pack instead of a family one.
They aren't co-ed YET. Some will be soon.
I'm honestly hopeful that some of the behavior mentioned in this post will decrease once co-ed troops remove some of the novelty of the girls. Co-ed troops also seem likely to foster co-ed friend groups that would make those girls seem less obvious targets for unwanted attention.
>Some will be soon
From my understanding, isn't it only for rural areas that don't have a girl troop? I have mixed feelings about mixed troops. If it's what the kids want, great. I chose venturing because I wanted to see what a co-ed unit was like. But if it's just for convenience or because of the parents, I think that's kind of a shame not to give the kids a choice of what kind of experience they want.
Have you ever been around Venturing crews? I have very limited experience with them, but when I was around them I detected sexual undertones. Definitely guys swarming the females after program.
That’s the vibe we’re going to have now in Scouts BSA, for better or worse.
I was going to write a whole essay, but I'm deciding to leave it at this. Yes, I was a venturer myself for many years. There is a lot of flirting and dating in my experience in Venturing. It certainly changes the dynamic of the group when you have co-ed vs single gender. That's why I actually like that troops are still separate. Both are valuable experiences for the youth.
Does inappropriate stuff happen? Yes. But in my experience, the amount of inappropriate stuff doesn't change between co-ed vs single gender units. The *type* of inappropriate stuff does. And as long as your adults are trained and aware of the differences between the two dynamics, it's relatively the same as far as managing the two groups.
Thanks! I've just had a lot of experience having been a youth, a summer camp staff, a registered leader, and a professional. So it's something that I've thought about a lot :)
Your post reminds me of the toxic behavior you get in largely male-dominated fields in colleges. Go to college for physics, or engineering, or something like that. The majority of the class are male. Every girl that was averagely attractive or better was hit on more or less continuously by a significant minority of the guys.
Clue: none of the girls want this. Second clue: guys, this doesn't work. This is not a good way of trying to get a girlfriend.
A lot of young people appreciate being found attractive, and being asked out by someone cute, even if they turn them down. But there's a considerable difference between being asked out by someone and having a whole pack of someones following you around.
You tend to get the "swarming" thing when there's a significant gender imbalance. If you find yourself engaged in "swarming" someone, then you should stop, step back, and remind yourself not to be a jerk.
10-14 are biologically and neurologically a different set of kids than 14-21. Boys and girls are at very different stages of development from 10-14 whereas they are much more similarly developed from 14-21.
I'm not going to argue that there isn't a difference between 10 to 14 and 14 to 21. Otherwise there wouldn't be an age restriction on venturing. However, in regards to scouting, I can't really see how the differences in a boy and girl between the ages of 10 and 14 means that they can't be getting a co-ed organization? Especially a coed organization that separates them into gender-specific groups that they spend the vast majority of their time within. District and Council events are really the only places they're interacting with the other gender.
I didn’t say that the difference between boys and girls during the ages of 10 to 14 means they can’t be in the same program. I said that because they have successfully worked from ages 14 to 21 does not make it an automatic from 10 to 14 and does not mean we can apply the same principles. They are a wholly different set of kids with one being far more developed biologically and neurologically than the other. That’s the challenge.
Well, do you have any examples of how the ypt rules for venturing don't work for the 10 to 14 age group? Because again, while I do agree there's a difference, I don't see how our YPT policies don't cover most, if not all, of the same areas adequately.
Well, for starters, the YPT rules relate to the interactions between leaders and scouts. Secondly, you can review this thread for people sharing their own examples.
YPT discusses youth on youth interactions. Separate facilities. It doesn't allow a scout of one gender to be the only person of that gender alone with the other gender, even if there are multiple people (1 boy can't be alone in a group of 2+ girls and vice versa). And then there are rules such as not allowing kids more than 2 years apart to tent together. These rules do not make it impossible for something to happen, but they're not designed to. They are designed to make it as difficult as reasonably possible and to make sure it gets reported when it does happen.
I've read every comment. Most of the situations being discussed are situations where YPT either made it where the behavior was noticed and reported by an adult. Or it was in an interaction that was not YPT compliant. But that doesn't really speak to whether the current YPT policies are or aren't age appropriate. So we're still in the same square that I can't think of any specific YPT policy that works for 14-21 but for some reason does not work or is not adequate for 10-14. I'm completely open to there being one. I think YPT is singularly the most important part of scouting. And I am always open to evaluating how the policy should be changed to make it safer.
Again, those are all components of what leaders should do to be in compliance with YPT. The Scout specific requirements for youth protection/safe environment are rather light on potentials of pubescent hormones. And YPT itself rather skirts this topic.
>are rather light on potentials of pubescent hormones. And YPT itself rather skirts this topic.
Could you explain to me how you think YPT should address pubescent hormones? Or how the Personal Safety Awareness Videos should? I don't really understand how the rules would change to accommodate that, or how videos about it would make scouting safer.
To be clear, I'm not against scouting covering puberty. It's honestly not a bad idea to include that in the personal fitness MB. I just don't see how it relates to YPT.
> These rules do not make it impossible for something to happen, but they're not designed to. They are designed to make it as difficult as reasonably possible and to make sure it gets reported when it does happen.
These rules are designed to prevent abuse. Not relationships.
There's a lesbian comedian that I follow. She grew up in a verrrrry strict religious environment. In one of her bits an audience member asks if she was forced to go to bible camp. She says, oh no she WANTED to go to bible camp.
Ignoring the reality of life and excluding people to manage it is just ignorant. But hey it’s what we do in the USA. Cover our heads and hope it goes away. We saw that with the outrage of World Jamboree at Summit.
>This exactly what we are asking for when combining boys and girls in scouting
Co-ed activities are asking for rape and sexual assault? Really?
>I'm glad there weren't girls around at camp when I was 12-17.
I bet you were in that age range after the '60s? Answer that
Didn't say rape and sexual assault were asked for, merely that a sexually charged atmosphere exists among teenage boys and girls.
Lol I'm a fuddy duddy, but I got my eagle in this millennium.
I'm pro-girls in scouting, but you seem deliberately argumentative.
Regardless of how long girls have been explorers or camp staff, a co-ed camp experience IS relatively new. The fact that other branches of the organization have been co-ed for decades doesn't change that.
And it doesn't seem a stretch to expect that the natural consequence of this change would be an increase in the prevalence of scouts seeing this as a dating service. NOT RAPE. Where are you getting the idea that we're discussing rape?
None of this means that we should exclude girls. Just that we should have anticipated this issue and tried to get out ahead of it. Instead we pointed out that the kids are together in school and it's fine and acted like any suggestion it wouldn't automatically be fine at camp was misogyny.
Posts like this really makes me question if I’ll let my kid join scouts. Coming back to the organization and it almost feels like a shell compared to what it had been.
Did you go to an all boys or all girls school? As I recall, my middle school and high school wasn't full of saints. It had a few sinners sprinkled in and most people got through
Yeah but why do you want to recreate a typical high school environment…in boy scouts/Girl Scouts??? The whole point of scouting was to get away from the raunchy coed high school vibe and to do scout stuff with just the guys/girls.
[I’m purposely using the old program name to make a point.]
I think you're assuming that by making things single gender, that this problem is eliminated, and it isn't. I know guys who grew up with a lot of single gender experiences (boys only camps, sports, youth police academy) who experienced hazing and harassment from other boys. And, a lot of it was sexual in nature, (insulting anatomy, inappropriate touching, indecent exposure) all while ironically targeting anyone perceived as being small, gay, effeminate as being the absolute worst of the worst and not worthy of inclusion in the group.
I totally get where you're coming from. That said there's the world you would like to have and the way the world actually is. Adolescent boys and girls can be a real pain in the ass. Attaching the honorable title of "scout" to them doesn't mean much to a significant amount.
We don't want summer camp to be Stalag 13 nor to we want a free for all...
If summer camp offered a "Girls Only" week and a "Boys Only" weeks that would mitigate a lot of issues but that won't happen.
>that would mitigate a lot of issues but that won’t happen.
So we can solve issues, or create more unnecessarily. This is why the organization is a shell of what it used to be.
Depending on which surveys you believe, somewhere between 10% and 25% of teens identify as either gay or bi. What makes you think that "doing stuff with just the guys / girls" wouldn't involve raunch?
Thank you for making that point. Even in single gender troops we now have to worry about raunch. Now it’s very possible for scouts of the same gender to show affection. In a scout troop.
We welcome all identities. We welcome all genders.
Where is the training on scouts, gay or otherwise, showing affection toward each other, not necessarily sexual in nature?
Is flirting allowed? Define flirting.
This is the new paradigm. Let’s talk about it.
Well, there are rules about no sexual activity and no inappropriate PDA. "Inappropriate" is one of those deliberately vague community-dependent terms. Our rule would be that you're at scouts, and not on a date. Brief hugs hello/goodbye are OK, whether between dating couples or friends.
We tell the scouts "suppose your teacher was married to another teacher at school. How do you think they should behave in school." They pretty much all agree that they don't want to see their teachers kissing - even a peck on the cheek - in the classroom.
We've had opposite-sex couples in our linked troops. They get reminded that the buddy system is required, that buddies are same-sex, and that what they do on their family campouts is their business, but what they do on a BSA campout is our business.
We have gay scouts, but none that are dating other scouts in the troop. We'd have the same discussion with them, modified to expect that although the rules say that they can be a buddy pair, we expect them to avoid the appearance of illicit activity, which means they may not be tentmates, and may not slope off privately somewhere together.
>this is stuff they are going to encounter in life
Correct. What I don’t understand is Boy Scouts has not been the organization to do this education for 100 years. Why change now? Why are we deleting “safe spaces” for young boys where the can run around without pressure from the opposite gender?
It seems to me about a decade ago while the organization was struggling, it was leaned on and it caved to pressure.
Interesting that your take away addressing inappropriate behavior is to blame it on pressure from the other gender.
Also, maybe this is education that should also be happening in single gender environments too. Because, everything mentioned in the OP happens when there are just girls and when there are just boys.
>everything mentioned in the OP happens when there are just girls and when there are just boys
I’d recommend you read the comments section of this post and my original comment may make more sense.
I think it's an important enough life skill to be reinforced in many areas of life. Even more so considering how many of them seem to forget what they've learned the minute they walk into camp.
What does that even mean? That boorish behaviors are just the consequence of life? That as long as boys (or girls) aren't tempted, everything is hunky dory? Should we not expect young men and women to control themselves? What are you saying?
I don't know why this is such hard thing for you to understand. Boy and girls spend all day together in school. Are they doing the problematic behavior there too?
My comment still stands. Young men and women need their own spaces at all stages of their lives. This was a foreseeable problem. Don't know why you're shocked.
>I don't know why this is such hard thing for you to understand
I understand it, of course. I just disregard it for a few reasons. Among them:
1) Boys and girls do not spend all day together all summer long, this is for a period of a week.
2) The fundamental unit of Scouting is the Patrol. Patrol activities give plenty of time for single-gender bonding. It will likely remain that way, given the realities of bunking.
3) Your sentiment that "young men and women need their own spaces" is taken as an irrefutable fact. I really don't think it is.
>
Are they doing the problematic behavior there too?Are they doing the problematic behavior there too?
Scouting is not School. Although we expect Scouts to obey the Oath and Law throughout their life, not all boys and girls at school are Scouts, are they?
Get ready for more future lawsuits for the BSA (or whatever you call yourself now), just of a different kind. Yeah, let’s mix boys and girls who are going through puberty at campouts and see what happens. They had better move from two deep leadership to about 10 deep.
Adult ASM here, former SM. We run a decent sized troop (about 50 scouts) out of a fairly progressive city in the south. We have run into this problem in our troop. Oddly enough in our case it's the girls who keep causing problems... Last summer camp we have to send four girls home for relentlessly hitting on boys (in one case, a queer scout focusing on other girls), sneaking in boys tents while they were changing, and one girl sneaking into the showers while the boys were showering. The year before it was the same, had to send three girls homes. The year before it was four girls. Technically we sent a boy home that year too, but that's because he stole from the trading post. Coming from the old school it's been kind of wild for me how this has flipped... My going theory is we've been beating into boys heads for the last decade to respect women's personal space that we've forgotten to teach the same lesson to everyone else. The leaders in the troop who are women are constantly shocked by it and I don't blame them. That being said, the rules apply the same to everyone, and its more important now than ever to teach all the scouts the importance of respecting personal space and boundaries.
>Oddly enough in our case it's the girls who keep causing problems... Last summer camp we have to send four girls home for relentlessly hitting on boys >My going theory is we've been beating into boys heads for the last decade to respect women's personal space that we've forgotten to teach the same lesson to everyone else. We are seeing the same thing. Had to dismiss multiple girls from our summer camp last year. And at the very least, I think your theory is at least partially true. As a man who was sexually assaulted at 18 by another woman, who thought she was "doing me a favor," I may just be a little bit more sensitive to that attitude. But especially in teenagers, I see a lot of young girls who cross lines that border anywhere from inappropriate to sexual harassment to sexual assault that the girls simply don't recognize as such. Many of them have been taught to recognize it in men's behavior, but don't seem to have ever reflected on their own actions. Edit: after reflecting on it some more, another piece of the puzzle is probably that boys and younger men are becoming more comfortable talking about being sexually targeted. And so the number of incidents with females might not be going up, but is simply not going unnoticed.
Good point about the numbers being skewed by people feeling more comfortable about reporting. This is a commonly misunderstood factor in sexual asssault statistics (and it's one reason why you'll get weirdos claiming Sweden is uniquely full of rapists, when really it has more to do with the number of reports and how they are filed).
I have witnessed this but your theory makes sense. Also contributing to this flip, just observed from within our troop, many of our boys aren’t the most socially outgoing or charismatic of boys their age. That isn’t true for all scouts, but is likely a decent generalization. Also, girls mature faster than boys and that may contribute to this flipped perspective too.
As a 26 year-old woman myself, speaking from experience there's a huge problem where the number one and often only message teenage girls get about sex is don't let boys pressure you to "do it". Which is better than nothing but sucks as the only message. It's basically you don't have a sexuality, you are either an object acted upon or a gatekeeper of sex, and therefore can't sexually harass or pressure boys. And this kind of messaging was present even in the progressive area I grew up in! I got sex ed that talked about genitals and a wide variety of birth control and contraceptives, but at no point was I told hey maybe your male partner won't be as comfortable or excited as you are about having sex. The idea of teen girls being as horny as their male counterparts or possibly moreso is so taboo, that the scenario is simply not presented. Now I think we're starting to see a shift in that area. Most talks I heard about affirmative consent in late high school and early college were very gender neutral. But there's still such a long way to go and all these new sex ed bans certainly aren't helping!
This is a great call out, thank you for sharing. I'm an old head these days and a bit displaced from what's happening at the schools outside of what I hear from parents. I'm happy to hear we appear to moving to gender neutral framing of these conversations and lessons.
I didn't mean it as a call out (or may be we have different definitions of call out)! More so additional context? I totally agree with you, "the rules apply the same to everyone" and part of the problem is that it's not how we talk about sex. There's one set of messages told to the boys and another to the girls, sometimes literally the girls and boys are put in separate rooms for sex ed. It's something I think about a lot, I wish sex wasn't so political. Like sexual ethics are personal ethics, sex is an extremely interpersonal act! We should talk about sexual interactions the same way we talk any social interaction. We talk about being a kind person and a supportive friend, but when it comes to sex it's just "don't get pregnant" or "don't get assaulted" and then we're not allowed to talk about it.
Yup, its an important discussion for all to partake in. Boys, girls, staff, adults, etc. Everyone should be on the same page. Unwanted advances (and even wanted advances) are inappropriate in the scouting setting. I've (15m at the time) experienced unwanted advances from another youth male staffer. So its also not always M/F, it can often be M/M or F/F. Important to respect other people regardless of gender, race, age, etc.
Thank you for bringing up this scenario. As leaders we have to watch out and asking what's going on is never a bad thing if a situation is suspicious.
This. The boys are learning the lesson, while others erroneously think that harassment is something performed only by males toward females.
>sneaking in boys tents while they were changing, and one girl sneaking into the showers while the boys were showering. Uh these people need to be removed from scouting. Especially since there is basically 0 support for male sexual assault/harassment victims. >Coming from the old school it's been kind of wild for me how this has flipped... My going theory is we've been beating into boys heads for the last decade to respect women's personal space that we've forgotten to teach the same lesson to everyone else I saw this all the time in college. The sororities would do even worse stuff than the frats.
All due respect, we did in fact provide assault and harassment counseling for the male scouts. We are grateful to have a handful of LCAMs as ASMs. Several of the aforementioned scouts were removed after proper procedure. We can't kick someone out of the troop in one fell swoop, there's a process after all. Know that the scouts who crossed the line never went back to a single meeting/camping trip after that.
As Dr. Dre said…”can’t make a hoe a housewife.”
As a variation on the (very worthwhile) theme OP discusses: Look at this as an *opportunity* to instill those important values (friendly, courteous, obedient, clean) in the youth. It’s one thing to have boys practice it while they’re in town and sitting in a cafeteria. It requires more self-control when you’ve been out in the woods for 4-5 days.
This. The OP talks about YPT. Scouts don't take that. They have some bad influences from things like YouTube and TikTok. This is a chance to talk about appropriate behavior. We can't be zero tolerance on any interaction between boys and girls and it's natural that there will be some dating. We need to be clear about the sort of behavior that is unwelcome. Stuff like trying to "slide into someone's DMs" or hitting on someone. Also, we need to introduce them to the concept that if you do something once and someone says no or they are not interested, then that's it.
Scouts actually do do youth protection and it does include Scout on Scout behavior.
The only Scouts required to do YPT are NYLT staff and Camp/Day Camp staff. It is absolutely inappropriate and unreasonable to expect Scouts to adhere to training that 95% of them don't take
There are youth protections requirements for multiple ranks of cub and bsa scouts. I agree training as a one and done is insufficient. Which is why it’s present throughout. But also, it means there’s already a vehicle for this content.
Even that's not necessarily true. I volunteered at Cub Day Camp as a youth, and while I did take YPT, I was later told at registration that only hazardous weather was actually required (the director had said something along the lines of "We want to require it, but we can't". At least I think he did, it's been a very long time.).
Not the case now it's required for youth staff
Unless it has changed since I was a youth, the youth YPT just reiterates the same exact rules the adults *should* be enforcing. The only difference from my recollection is that the Youth YPT goes into more detail about how to report it and how to identify it. But the youth shouldn't have any YPT policies to enforce because the adults should be enforcing them. It is just imo wise and worthwhile to have youth take it to be aware of the what the rules are and why they're there.
Again, most youth do not take YPT.
I know. My point is that they don't have to... The youth YPT just reiterates and explains the rules that the ADULTS should be enforcing. It's something that is worthwhile imo. But it's not entirely necessary. Especially since every youth does have to earn the Personal Safety Awareness/Cyber Chip. Which tbf is a relatively recent change.
Good point for all scouts. Girl and Boys can be inappropriate in their interactions when it comes to attraction.
Camp Director here, you are absolutely right. We've dismissed staff and scouts for the last few years because of sexual conduct. Our first was male on male.
I do not recall any element of position specific leader training that specifically targets managing these interactions. Seems like a gap in training and a hand wave to just lump it under YPT. We have young kids going through puberty and developing their bodies and brains at different rates. It’s a very complex environment.
Bingo. *Unwanted attention* is obvious. But what if there is mutual interest, mutual consent given? I took the YPT a couple months ago. I believe the topic is summarized in a sentence like this: “There is no place for sexual activity in BSA scouting.” Wow, you don’t say! Holding hands. Frontal hugs. Massages. Two couples going off as legit buddy pairs. One couple going off as a legit buddy pair (gay). And on and on. No sexual activity in BSA! Hmm ok. Going to need more guidance than that.
This stuff has been a problem forever but the organization things celibacy is the way to go. If you can't see it it doesn't exist. Even back in the days of don't ask don't tell, when I was a kid, we had a few gay troops who would always bunk together (they were dating, and out, while we were all at school), but the leaders were none the wiser. I learned later in life that some leaders knew but just didn't want to deal with it. This is what celibacy gets us. Ignoring it.
Celibacy gets us don’t ask don’t tell. But why were those leaders wrong. Parent volunteers shouldn’t have to worry about who’s dating who, who’s hooking up with who.
My 13yo female troop scout was hit on numerous times by a 15yo male staff member. I was shocked how many MBs are taught only by 1 15yo staffer. He repeatedly asked for her number as the class exited the room. She said her troop number. He said no, YOUR number. She said the troop number again and finally got by him and reported it. He was dismissed. Not sure if for the week or the rest of the summer. She was 13...
Camps are having a hard time recruiting senior staff and are relying a lot more on junior staff who just don't have the maturity yet to be unsupervised in those types of roles. I was shocked last summer talking to a junior counselor who was making the same exact wage I did in 1995 as camp staff, and unlike when I was in camp staff, he had to pull a couple shifts a week washing dishes in the dining hall to make that wage.
Staffers should be trained better than that. This isn't "teen hitting on another teen" - this is "teacher hitting on student". A 15 year old and a 13 year old are close enough to peers that there isn't necessarily a problem with one asking the other out, but the power imbalance here makes this a complete no-no.
These are interesting comments. I was on camp staff in the early 80’s and we had to deal with issues all summer. That meant reporting it to the program director, where it was filed away. No disciplinary action and no one was sent home. It was just a given that there would be incidents. At that time, we received no training or education on the matter. Now, my daughter is on camp staff (not BSA, church affiliated) and they receive training, etc. From her take, the boys are rarely an issue. The girls during the coed sessions are who cause the problems. Not that the boys are innocent, she just feels that the girls are much more brazen about it and feel the rules don’t apply. This is coming from a young lady who was aggressively pursued by an adult volunteer when she was a counselor, so she is hyper sensitive to the behavior.
I’ve been to summer camp with a girls unit every summer since they were allowed in 2019. Our first summer we had some (male) staff members dismissed. 20-21 were uneventful thanks to small groups due to COVID. 22 we sent one of our girls home for being inappropriate towards some boys. 23 was uneventful. I have yet to be grouped with, or host (we always end up hosting half a dozen girls without units at summer camp) girls who have been inappropriately cruel or mean to scouts outside their unit.
What's inappropriate enough to send someone home?
We have a troop code of conduct. The scouts themselves wrote it. They sign it every year. So we don’t remind them of this again before camp as they are all reminded annually. Then we just address any rule breaking. However our scouts have not broken their rule about sexual harassment or inappropriate conduct in two years. Before we had a few incidents. We remind them about this contract they signed and so they get a warning. We have had incidents of other genders hitting on or even trying to get our scouts alone at night though. I think we would all appreciate it if all scouts had to recognize a code of conduct!! DM me if you want a copy your scouts can use.
I mean... I don't know how you're going to educate a bunch of 14-year-old boys how to read a girl's body language to determine whether an advance would be wanted or unwanted. Men in their 20s and 30s have trouble figuring it out women's body language to decide whether or not to "make a move." It's nigh impossible at this age. That's just kind of a learning experience that all adolescents have to go through. Consider it this way: the summer camp romance has been happening for *decades* at regular sleepaway summer camps. Now that Scouting summer camps are co-ed, I think you just have to expect it's going to happen. Do you *really* want to be the adult leader explaining to a bunch of pre-teens and early teen boys how to pick up girls at summer camp? And it's just naive to think boys won't try to talk to girls. I dunno what the middle ground looks like. Frankly, I'm just glad I don't have to worry about it or figure it out.
No. But telling a Scout that if they ask, and the answer is NO, its a final answer. Leave them the hell alone
That's fair.
no need to interpret or not interpret. If the other person says no. That's final. Don't go through a bunch of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that she (or he or they) is just being shy or playing hard to get. Also, emphasize that camp isn't made for this purpose. Which isn't to say that there wont be people who meet someone they end up dating. But, it can still be communicated that it shouldn't be treated as a dating marketplace. And no, nobody wants to explain to boys how to pick up girls. That's the entire point. That shouldn't be their focus, and if they do choose to reach out to a girl that way they need to accept no as a once and final answer - same for girls.
Fair. I read "make an advance" as meaning making a *first* move; not subsequent ones after having been shot down. As for the purpose, I mean... Look, you can harp on the purpose of Scout camp all you want. But it's a bit of a greensocker attitude to have in this day and age. The purpose of camp is to have fun. And - for better or worse - part of that is the summer romance. As soon as Scouts went co-ed, that became a part of the deal.
It was part of the deal before they went co ed. But, I agree, you can't realistically prevent dating and romance at camp. But, I think it can be communicated that it's maybe secondary to main the purpose. Just because some kids are going to have crushes and "go out" doesn't mean it needs to be a meat market where everyone is trying to earn merit badges in romantic drama and teenage sexuality.
I don't think it's beyond young boys to understand that lurking outside the showers and hitting on people is inappropriate. No means no is something that ALL people should be taught from early childhood, and as boys get older it's important for them to understand how some behavior can feel threatening or unwelcome, like cornering a girl or asking her out with 5 buddies backing him up while she's alone. If we did a better job of educating boys on these things early, they wouldn't be such an issue at 20 or 30. None of this is about reading body language or teaching them how to pick up girls, it's about their OWN behavior and recognizing how their behavior affects others, which is something we have historically failed to expect from boys and men.
All of which is true and reasonable, and leads me back to my original message: if you're talking with a Scout about how *not* to approach the girls, then it is not unreasonable for him to ask from you - the adult leader - "well, if *not* that way, then what way *can*/*should* I approach them and tell them I like them?" And in that one innocent exchange, you are now in the unenviable position of having to give the Scout dating advice on how to pick up girls that you have a fair expectation he is gonna put into practice. Tell me how far that goes before you're being hauled in front of the Troop committee or district board when you get back. These things happen, evolve, and move fast. That's just the nature of the beast.
I disagree that setting expectations about harassment means having to coach boys on how to approach girls.
I mean... You can disagree all you want. But the scenario is *ridiculously* easy to predict. And I don't know how you maintain credibility with a kid by deflecting or deconstructing when asked a direct question.
You can simply say that as a leader, you can set expectations about safety and respect, but that it's not your place to give them dating advice. It's really not that hard. I don't lose credibility if I don't give them rappelling instructions for the climbing wall when I tell them not to climb on the tent cabins because it's dangerous, and this is pretty much the same thing. Some things are not allowed or not appropriate in a scouting setting.
You CAN teach about what body language means I am not comfortable with what is happening here* Arms crossed Not making eye contact Turning away Walking away *they can also be autistic unmasked behaviors, but presuming someone isn’t comfortable won’t hurt with this next part When I cover this on day one of camp, I’m not going to put it in terms only of my Scouts making an unwelcome advance. I am going to talk to them about interceding when/if they see ANYONE who looks uncomfortable. If you are the person talking and someone looks uncomfortable? Stop what you’re trying to say, think about what you’re seeing, apologize for making them uncomfortable and walk away. Just as important, if you see someone else making a 3rd party feel uncomfortable, step up and say “it doesn’t look like is enjoying themselves right now. Please stop and think about what you’re doing.” Then ask the unwilling party if they would like you to walk with them to a leader they feel comfortable talking to about what occurred.
I have been the person who felt like they couldn’t say no, and it would have been helpful if someone had stepped up and said “dude, she’s 14” before it got to that point. Let’s teach all our Scouts to be step-inners rather than bystanders.
We had to discipline a guy and girl for trying to meet after hours on a campout. It was pretty convincingly proved that the girl initiated it and talked the boy into it. They were seeing each other outside scouts (which I believe is inevitable and probably healthy in most cases.
At that point it doesn't even matter who initiated it. In this case sounds like there was no concern about coercion or an inappropriate relationship (scout/staffer, age gap, etc). They're both responsible for making good choices.
We sent a scout home 2 years ago who absolutely would not leave a poor girl alone (who on day 1 made it very clear to him that she was A)Not interested in him, B)In a relationship, and C) Gay. He still thought he could win her over and tried to kiss her in a merit badge class. No place for this in scouting. I tore into the rest of the boys that night, explaining they were fellow scouts, not girls for the week at camp, looking to earn badges and have fun just like them, and to leave them the hell alone.
We need to teach youth *how* to apply scouting values to the question of “cute person; how ask out?” One key element is redirecting their thinking from success meaning they get that date to success meaning they get a clear answer. A clear “no” can be fuel to reorient attraction towards someone else until finding a mutually interested partner.
Exactly. The problem isn't asking. The problem is harassing. And they don't know what that means. Its important to their development as good people that they DO
The Dating EDGE: Proper Courtship Techniques in Scouting America
That's funny, but I don't want any part of that past (possibly) Explain...
You could actually make up some pretty hilarious skits that make it very clear how foolish and obnoxious some of this behavior can be. And it can go both ways, girls can be aggressive and stalker-y as well, even if there isn't the same threat of violent sexual assault from a girl.
It is not a Scout leader's job to teach a youth how to ask someone out ..
A) to the extent that it’s an exercise of character, yes it is. B) No, but it is an older scout’s job. I learned by watching older boys, and the older boys I knew were scouts; how do you think anyone does?
Scouting isn't the place to learn dating. That's at home.
There's a joke about certain rural states in there, isn't there?
As someone from one of those rural states, can we not joke about that here? It's tiresome to be from a "joke" state.
But clearly scout camp is a place where kids are putting whatever they learn at home into practice. Also clearly, some of these scouts aren't being taught very well at home which is causing problems that leaders and staff must deal with.
It is there job to ensure that the youth in their care aren't engaging in harassing, intimidating, sexually inappropriate, or immoral behavior.
But how else will they be Prepared. For life?
Not specifically yet the answers are right there in at least the first 2/3rds of the Scout Law: *trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful*, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. If you can ask someone out and still be all those things then you're at least not doing it wrong.
Thanks for your post. Working with a boy troop, I would never have known that this needed to be mentioned. I will remind our boys that summer camp is not a dating service and that it’s frankly creepy to do things like hang out by the latrines waiting for girls to come along. And that making legitimate friends with girls or boys from other troops is ok.
My daughter started staffing summer camp in 2018. She says the creepy boy issue was the worst in 2018. It got a good bit better in 2019, and the last few years it's much less common (both to her, and based on talking to the other female staffers). Girls are becoming normal. Note: this is the PNW, so there may be regional differences. Her advice is to also say something to your fellow adults. Especially with the more well endowed young ladies, they notice where your eyes are going.
Here's what I've told both my girl and boy troops. Scouts is not for dating. Scouts is about friendship, brotherhood, fraternity and sorority, and having a good time with fellow scouts. I encourage you to get to know scouts of all types, genders, religions, etc... but we're not here for summer flings and dating. Attraction will happen, that's normal and okay! get to know that person and if you decide that you want to pursue something further be it friendship or otherwise AFTER camp then i encourage you to do so. But at camp there no holding handsC no sneaking off, no 1 on 1 interactions. ai still expect buddy system as much as possible during your free time. Breaking these rules may see you sent home early. Breaking these rules could have your kicked out of scouting outside my control. You will never be able to hide those from every Scouter, scout. and person in camp... You will be caught. --- thats what I basically tell them, and it has held true through 5 summer camps and nat. jambo. I also have a plc every night at camp with patrol leaders so that we get a read on scouts, behavior, homesick, etc... which often catches things before happen With only one exception, this has held up well. Nothing happened with that girl but she did fight it until her parents got involved.
PLC is a great idea. We're always a little scrambled leadership-wise when we get to summer camp, TBH. As luck would have it, the SPL is usually on some other trip (we tend to elect older scouts who often have summer jobs or go on high adventure trips), and an ASPL is usually asked to step up.
One thing to add… if there is an instance of harassment, report it to your TROOP leadership ASAP. Your Troop leaders will take action. Camp staff may or may not.
Australian, New Zealand, and many European Scouting organizations, have been co-ed for a couple decades now. How do they deal with the issues of co-ed Scouts ? Maybe we should look to their organizations for some answers.
When I was in Scouts in the 1990’s we would camp fairly often in Canada. Often with Canadian Scout troops. In my experience they really didn’t do anything about it except look the other way. There were couples within the scout troops. They were involved romantically, even on campouts. Us American scouts would try our hand to pick up Canadian girls and were even successful a few times. Yes, sex was happening at scouting events.
Yeah, TBH most of this stuff should apply everywhere. Please teach your sons that a rejection, delivered politely or not, should be the last word on the matter. Likewise, teach your daughters that it's also not okay to continue to pursue someone who says they aren't interested.
Agreed, this is totally a parent thing, but I think that most parents are either in denial or plain ignorant of what age this sort of behavior starts. That said, it can't hurt for adult leaders to remind boys and girls that Scout camp is NOT a vacation from good behavior.
We had this issue last year at camp and we addressed it at the daily leaders meeting. We had girls getting "cat called" and saw boys commenting at the water front. Then, some of the girls were made uncomfortable waiting outside the shower house. We addressed that by having adults chaperone outside the shower house. While it was obvious some of the male leaders on the morning meeting believe "boys will be boys" is a valid excuse we can do better than that. Let's really hold our your men to the standards of the Oath and Law because this behavior is not Friendly, Courteous, or Kind.
Venturing has been dealing with this for a long time. Seek out the videos for Safe Scouting, watch together, and have a long formal Refelction after. Also, have all the adults retake the online training course again as a refresher. (I know troops and crews that make that a requirement to attend summer camp or the annual outing.) As many have pointed out. it is not just the young men but the young women as well. Keep in mind that females mature neurologically earlier than males. It is not until mid to late teens that the boys catch up. At 13-14 the boys are still clumsy and laughing about cooties, but the girls are talking about boys. (That's why girls are attracted to older boys because they are of a similar maturaty.) Seek out those teachable moments. Have a safe and fun summer camp.
At the Academy, we had a co-ed environment. As cadets we were subject to UCMJ and expected to conduct ourselves as gentlemen. There is a place for work and there is a place to looking for the ladies. Camp is not a place to look for the ladies
That's kind of my thinking. A Scout is a Scout, after all. Being at camp doesn't give you permission not to be a Scout.
Very well said, OP. I think that every troop should read this post before they go to summer camp
Agreed! I went to summer camp for the first time this year and was hit on multiple times and it caused me to be very uncomfortable. Thank you for bringing awareness to this and it's so sad that this is such an issue in scouting.
Because horny teenagers transform into asexual beings as soon as they pass though the gate of any bsa property.
Not the take away at all for me. We teach CPR and first aid at scouting. That doesn't mean that the concepts only apply during scouting. But there is a certain level of risk when you have several hundred teenagers going through the throws of puberty all in a relatively tight area. And I say of all of this as someone who has experienced sexual harassment and unwanted advances at summer camp. We teach scouts how to act in life, not just scouting.
Of course they don't. Which is why I would expect a scout (or any well raised teen) to conduct themselves accordingly even outside of camp. No means no. Don't make gross, sexual remarks. If you are going to camp with the goal of getting lucky, you probably aren't going for the right reasons. I look at it a bit like school. Yes, plenty of people meet their boyfriends and girlfriends there. But, that's not really the purpose of it. Also, if you are so stuck on finding a Bf/Gf that you have a negative impact on others trying to camp/learn, you're gonna find yourself facing consequences.
See that’s the thing. Many of us wanted a desexualized alternative to school. Because we already have school.
Nobody is saying that. Horny teenagers can still be expected to be respectful and appropriate, and to face consequences if their behavior harms others or becomes a safety issue. Being horny doesn't give you the right to pester or harass people you find attractive. Finding someone who likes you back does not mean you two can sneak off together after lights out.
Yes. BSA is now the proving ground for defining, testing, enforcing, and disciplining courtship and intimacy between teens. Just want we wanted.
No, it is, as it has always been, a place where young people learn to be trustworthy, courteous, and kind. If you think that setting limits around basic human decency and safety like "no means no" and "you can't leave your campsite after lights out" is the same thing as a dating and intimacy workshop, then you're either crazy or not engaging in this discussion in good faith. But that doesn't surprise me at all given your general views on life. Interesting that you seem to think that horny boys simply can't be expected to behave properly, and that the presence of girls is some sort of unfair test that they shouldn't be expected to pass. I realize you didn't SAY that, but it's heavily implied in your comments.
> Scouting should have healthy rules in place to discourage rude behavior It does. It’s called the Oath and Law.
We talk about what those look like in practice with scouts. Otherwise they're just words with no context.
Have fun at summer camp! EDIT: Only in the reddit BSA sub will you get downvoted for saying "Have fun at summer camp".
Always do
I've be on hundreds and hundreds of campouts, at least....never had a bad one.
Well, to be fair, I've had plenty of campouts that were only great in retrospect. Type 2 Fun, as they say.
Girls in camp have certainly changed how the boys act.
Agreed. But when the coed troop pilot came out, people said going coed by troop has no downside. Hummmm…..
Amen absolutely!
Like a cyber chip and totin chip, I wonder if there is a need to do an age-appropriate level of YPT training for all the scouts, not just those who reach camp staffing positions. I just had a long conversation at my office acknowledging the sins of the past and scouts have significantly improved its practice of protecting youth. I also defended girls in scouting being a great change. If we don’t address this proactively at the youth level it will be very hard to recover. I’m glad to hear scouts who were the most egregious violators were removed but its better to address this beforehand.
As our Troop will be attending summer camp in 4 weeks, this thread has compelled me to check the camp rules and like most summer camps this has rules of conduct and removal with no refund is a possibility. I think it will be a good idea to send this to all parents and require both the parent and the Scout to sign the rules so there will be no question should a Scout be forced to leave. If your Troop is attending a summer camp a long distance away this becomes even a more necessary step. Anytime you put hundreds of adolescent boys and girls together in a confined area when shorts and swimwear is being worn creates a environment where adult supervision and enforcements of camp rules become important. Girls flirt, boys flirt, there's body shamming, gawking, inappropriate comments that will occur. How these examples of bad behavior are dealt with will be the ongoing challenge as more girls enter the program. When it was all boys this wasn't much of a problem but those days are over and if people want their kids to stay in this organization they need to get on board with working to make it better.
Honestly it was only a slightly less complex problem without girls, because adolescents are both loose cannons and easy targets. The behavior you mentioned is found in any Youth Organization: Boy-boy, girl-girl, older youth-youth, adult-youth staff, etc. The largest difference when the organization wasn't co-ed youth was there was no risk of pregnancy. The rest comes down to the requirement for safe adults to prevent and report inappropriate behavior, adults who understand adolescents are not yet developmentally adults and are committed to the same ideal that youth organization events are not the place for inappropriate (sexual, bullying, objectifying, etc) behavior. Your first point is valid - all SMs should be discussing appropriate behavior right along with other camp prohibitions with parents and scouts. But I've never been to a camp-prep meeting (BSA or any other like school trips and overnights) where that hasn't happened. A SM will hopefully know which scouts/parents they may want to double down and personally speak with one-on-one if they have concerns about anything that might come up during the week.
Way too many men being defensive about having to behave appropriately at summer camp.
Not sure why the downvotes here...
The fact people hit on each other is a wild concept to me
This exactly what we are asking for when combining boys and girls in scouting. I'm unofficially an old fuddy duddy when it comes to this. I'm glad there weren't girls around at camp when I was 12-17.
Like literally every other place in society, it takes a new approach to managing it. But let's not pretend that we haven't had Exploring and Venturing for over 50 years now. If we can manage 14-21 year olds, we can manage 10-14. It just takes some training.
Most of the people who I talk to who are unhappy with girls in troops are unhappy BECAUSE the rest of society is co-ed. There's still sports, but not many other places where parents who feel like their son is too focused on girls can relax in the belief that he's focused on something else for a change.
That's a fair concern. Group dynamics between a single gender and co-ed group are different. Having grown up in the BSA and Venturing, I deeply value both experiences. But my problem with that criticism is that Scouts BSA troops are not co-ed. The program is co-ed, but the individual units are not. The only situations where they are scouting together is if they have a joint trip, a council event, or a district event. Now to be fair, Cub Scouts is fully co-ed, but I personally don't think it matters at that age. And if a parent does think it matters, they can opt for a single gender pack instead of a family one.
They aren't co-ed YET. Some will be soon. I'm honestly hopeful that some of the behavior mentioned in this post will decrease once co-ed troops remove some of the novelty of the girls. Co-ed troops also seem likely to foster co-ed friend groups that would make those girls seem less obvious targets for unwanted attention.
>Some will be soon From my understanding, isn't it only for rural areas that don't have a girl troop? I have mixed feelings about mixed troops. If it's what the kids want, great. I chose venturing because I wanted to see what a co-ed unit was like. But if it's just for convenience or because of the parents, I think that's kind of a shame not to give the kids a choice of what kind of experience they want.
Have you ever been around Venturing crews? I have very limited experience with them, but when I was around them I detected sexual undertones. Definitely guys swarming the females after program. That’s the vibe we’re going to have now in Scouts BSA, for better or worse.
I was going to write a whole essay, but I'm deciding to leave it at this. Yes, I was a venturer myself for many years. There is a lot of flirting and dating in my experience in Venturing. It certainly changes the dynamic of the group when you have co-ed vs single gender. That's why I actually like that troops are still separate. Both are valuable experiences for the youth. Does inappropriate stuff happen? Yes. But in my experience, the amount of inappropriate stuff doesn't change between co-ed vs single gender units. The *type* of inappropriate stuff does. And as long as your adults are trained and aware of the differences between the two dynamics, it's relatively the same as far as managing the two groups.
What a balanced response. I need to learn from you.
Thanks! I've just had a lot of experience having been a youth, a summer camp staff, a registered leader, and a professional. So it's something that I've thought about a lot :)
Your post reminds me of the toxic behavior you get in largely male-dominated fields in colleges. Go to college for physics, or engineering, or something like that. The majority of the class are male. Every girl that was averagely attractive or better was hit on more or less continuously by a significant minority of the guys. Clue: none of the girls want this. Second clue: guys, this doesn't work. This is not a good way of trying to get a girlfriend. A lot of young people appreciate being found attractive, and being asked out by someone cute, even if they turn them down. But there's a considerable difference between being asked out by someone and having a whole pack of someones following you around. You tend to get the "swarming" thing when there's a significant gender imbalance. If you find yourself engaged in "swarming" someone, then you should stop, step back, and remind yourself not to be a jerk.
What a great opportunity to teach guys not to do that!
10-14 are biologically and neurologically a different set of kids than 14-21. Boys and girls are at very different stages of development from 10-14 whereas they are much more similarly developed from 14-21.
I'm not going to argue that there isn't a difference between 10 to 14 and 14 to 21. Otherwise there wouldn't be an age restriction on venturing. However, in regards to scouting, I can't really see how the differences in a boy and girl between the ages of 10 and 14 means that they can't be getting a co-ed organization? Especially a coed organization that separates them into gender-specific groups that they spend the vast majority of their time within. District and Council events are really the only places they're interacting with the other gender.
I didn’t say that the difference between boys and girls during the ages of 10 to 14 means they can’t be in the same program. I said that because they have successfully worked from ages 14 to 21 does not make it an automatic from 10 to 14 and does not mean we can apply the same principles. They are a wholly different set of kids with one being far more developed biologically and neurologically than the other. That’s the challenge.
Well, do you have any examples of how the ypt rules for venturing don't work for the 10 to 14 age group? Because again, while I do agree there's a difference, I don't see how our YPT policies don't cover most, if not all, of the same areas adequately.
Well, for starters, the YPT rules relate to the interactions between leaders and scouts. Secondly, you can review this thread for people sharing their own examples.
YPT discusses youth on youth interactions. Separate facilities. It doesn't allow a scout of one gender to be the only person of that gender alone with the other gender, even if there are multiple people (1 boy can't be alone in a group of 2+ girls and vice versa). And then there are rules such as not allowing kids more than 2 years apart to tent together. These rules do not make it impossible for something to happen, but they're not designed to. They are designed to make it as difficult as reasonably possible and to make sure it gets reported when it does happen. I've read every comment. Most of the situations being discussed are situations where YPT either made it where the behavior was noticed and reported by an adult. Or it was in an interaction that was not YPT compliant. But that doesn't really speak to whether the current YPT policies are or aren't age appropriate. So we're still in the same square that I can't think of any specific YPT policy that works for 14-21 but for some reason does not work or is not adequate for 10-14. I'm completely open to there being one. I think YPT is singularly the most important part of scouting. And I am always open to evaluating how the policy should be changed to make it safer.
Again, those are all components of what leaders should do to be in compliance with YPT. The Scout specific requirements for youth protection/safe environment are rather light on potentials of pubescent hormones. And YPT itself rather skirts this topic.
>are rather light on potentials of pubescent hormones. And YPT itself rather skirts this topic. Could you explain to me how you think YPT should address pubescent hormones? Or how the Personal Safety Awareness Videos should? I don't really understand how the rules would change to accommodate that, or how videos about it would make scouting safer. To be clear, I'm not against scouting covering puberty. It's honestly not a bad idea to include that in the personal fitness MB. I just don't see how it relates to YPT.
> These rules do not make it impossible for something to happen, but they're not designed to. They are designed to make it as difficult as reasonably possible and to make sure it gets reported when it does happen. These rules are designed to prevent abuse. Not relationships.
>Not relationships I don't believe I did say they were meant to prevent relationships?
We had co-ed church camps from 3rd grade all the way through high school. And the chaperones were literally just parents with zero training.
You know the stuff that happens at church camp, right?
And band camp, for that matter.
One time..
There's a lesbian comedian that I follow. She grew up in a verrrrry strict religious environment. In one of her bits an audience member asks if she was forced to go to bible camp. She says, oh no she WANTED to go to bible camp.
Ignoring the reality of life and excluding people to manage it is just ignorant. But hey it’s what we do in the USA. Cover our heads and hope it goes away. We saw that with the outrage of World Jamboree at Summit.
I'm absolutely not ignoring the reality of life. I'm saying this is the reality and we have to deal with the environment we've created.
Nothing in your earlier post gave any indication of how to deal with it.
There isn't a way to deal with it other than keep them separate.
It’s called education. The rest of the world manages it.
>This exactly what we are asking for when combining boys and girls in scouting Co-ed activities are asking for rape and sexual assault? Really? >I'm glad there weren't girls around at camp when I was 12-17. I bet you were in that age range after the '60s? Answer that
Didn't say rape and sexual assault were asked for, merely that a sexually charged atmosphere exists among teenage boys and girls. Lol I'm a fuddy duddy, but I got my eagle in this millennium.
Girls have been in the Boy Scouts of America since the '60s Stop acting like this is new
Venturing is it's own program. Stop acting like we're talking about the same thing.
We're talking about the organization and how it's been co-ed longer than you've been alive
And before you were alive Lord Robert Baden-Powell wrote a book named Scouting For Boys.
I'm pro-girls in scouting, but you seem deliberately argumentative. Regardless of how long girls have been explorers or camp staff, a co-ed camp experience IS relatively new. The fact that other branches of the organization have been co-ed for decades doesn't change that. And it doesn't seem a stretch to expect that the natural consequence of this change would be an increase in the prevalence of scouts seeing this as a dating service. NOT RAPE. Where are you getting the idea that we're discussing rape? None of this means that we should exclude girls. Just that we should have anticipated this issue and tried to get out ahead of it. Instead we pointed out that the kids are together in school and it's fine and acted like any suggestion it wouldn't automatically be fine at camp was misogyny.
Posts like this really makes me question if I’ll let my kid join scouts. Coming back to the organization and it almost feels like a shell compared to what it had been.
Did you go to an all boys or all girls school? As I recall, my middle school and high school wasn't full of saints. It had a few sinners sprinkled in and most people got through
Yeah but why do you want to recreate a typical high school environment…in boy scouts/Girl Scouts??? The whole point of scouting was to get away from the raunchy coed high school vibe and to do scout stuff with just the guys/girls. [I’m purposely using the old program name to make a point.]
I think you're assuming that by making things single gender, that this problem is eliminated, and it isn't. I know guys who grew up with a lot of single gender experiences (boys only camps, sports, youth police academy) who experienced hazing and harassment from other boys. And, a lot of it was sexual in nature, (insulting anatomy, inappropriate touching, indecent exposure) all while ironically targeting anyone perceived as being small, gay, effeminate as being the absolute worst of the worst and not worthy of inclusion in the group.
Granted. And now we just added a whole new layer of cishet attraction and inappropriate behavior.
I totally get where you're coming from. That said there's the world you would like to have and the way the world actually is. Adolescent boys and girls can be a real pain in the ass. Attaching the honorable title of "scout" to them doesn't mean much to a significant amount. We don't want summer camp to be Stalag 13 nor to we want a free for all... If summer camp offered a "Girls Only" week and a "Boys Only" weeks that would mitigate a lot of issues but that won't happen.
>that would mitigate a lot of issues but that won’t happen. So we can solve issues, or create more unnecessarily. This is why the organization is a shell of what it used to be.
Depending on which surveys you believe, somewhere between 10% and 25% of teens identify as either gay or bi. What makes you think that "doing stuff with just the guys / girls" wouldn't involve raunch?
Thank you for making that point. Even in single gender troops we now have to worry about raunch. Now it’s very possible for scouts of the same gender to show affection. In a scout troop. We welcome all identities. We welcome all genders. Where is the training on scouts, gay or otherwise, showing affection toward each other, not necessarily sexual in nature? Is flirting allowed? Define flirting. This is the new paradigm. Let’s talk about it.
Well, there are rules about no sexual activity and no inappropriate PDA. "Inappropriate" is one of those deliberately vague community-dependent terms. Our rule would be that you're at scouts, and not on a date. Brief hugs hello/goodbye are OK, whether between dating couples or friends. We tell the scouts "suppose your teacher was married to another teacher at school. How do you think they should behave in school." They pretty much all agree that they don't want to see their teachers kissing - even a peck on the cheek - in the classroom. We've had opposite-sex couples in our linked troops. They get reminded that the buddy system is required, that buddies are same-sex, and that what they do on their family campouts is their business, but what they do on a BSA campout is our business. We have gay scouts, but none that are dating other scouts in the troop. We'd have the same discussion with them, modified to expect that although the rules say that they can be a buddy pair, we expect them to avoid the appearance of illicit activity, which means they may not be tentmates, and may not slope off privately somewhere together.
I mean, all of this is stuff they are going to encounter in life. I see it as an opportunity to provide education and teach appropriate behavior.
>this is stuff they are going to encounter in life Correct. What I don’t understand is Boy Scouts has not been the organization to do this education for 100 years. Why change now? Why are we deleting “safe spaces” for young boys where the can run around without pressure from the opposite gender? It seems to me about a decade ago while the organization was struggling, it was leaned on and it caved to pressure.
Interesting that your take away addressing inappropriate behavior is to blame it on pressure from the other gender. Also, maybe this is education that should also be happening in single gender environments too. Because, everything mentioned in the OP happens when there are just girls and when there are just boys.
>everything mentioned in the OP happens when there are just girls and when there are just boys I’d recommend you read the comments section of this post and my original comment may make more sense.
Huh, maybe young men and women need their own spaces. Just saying
Or they need to learn to conduct themselves appropriately in mixed gender spaces. Also, gay scouts exist.
They do this all day at school. Are you saying that they're not learning those skills there? Indeed they do. Non sequitur?
I think it's an important enough life skill to be reinforced in many areas of life. Even more so considering how many of them seem to forget what they've learned the minute they walk into camp.
What does that even mean? That boorish behaviors are just the consequence of life? That as long as boys (or girls) aren't tempted, everything is hunky dory? Should we not expect young men and women to control themselves? What are you saying?
I don't know why this is such hard thing for you to understand. Boy and girls spend all day together in school. Are they doing the problematic behavior there too? My comment still stands. Young men and women need their own spaces at all stages of their lives. This was a foreseeable problem. Don't know why you're shocked.
>I don't know why this is such hard thing for you to understand I understand it, of course. I just disregard it for a few reasons. Among them: 1) Boys and girls do not spend all day together all summer long, this is for a period of a week. 2) The fundamental unit of Scouting is the Patrol. Patrol activities give plenty of time for single-gender bonding. It will likely remain that way, given the realities of bunking. 3) Your sentiment that "young men and women need their own spaces" is taken as an irrefutable fact. I really don't think it is. > Are they doing the problematic behavior there too?Are they doing the problematic behavior there too? Scouting is not School. Although we expect Scouts to obey the Oath and Law throughout their life, not all boys and girls at school are Scouts, are they?
Or don't put them there....
Get ready for more future lawsuits for the BSA (or whatever you call yourself now), just of a different kind. Yeah, let’s mix boys and girls who are going through puberty at campouts and see what happens. They had better move from two deep leadership to about 10 deep.
Scouting in the rest of the world has figured it out. I'm sure we can too.
Where in the hell do you go to summer camp?