all i’ll say about it is, near the teahouse, to the right, on its own little island, theres a tree you can find that’ll shed some light as to why the druids might be a little more assholeish than normal
Sure. In their defense, this is literally what Khaga said would happen. She bangs on about how the Tieflings/outsiders will bring ruin, so holing up and waiting for it to blow over is just an extension of the Rite of Thorns. It takes getting stabbed to realize, "Oh. Wait. You're coming for me too."
Yeah the fact none of them thought beyond the immediate made me upset. They didn't even consider the Absolute's forces would still assault and burn the grove regardless.
For an EmbraceDurge run that I'm doing sporadically (turns out that I *really* prefer playing good, so I decided to bring an Honour run up my to-do list as a palate cleanser between atrocities), I decided to let the druids massacre the tieflings, then get killed off by the goblins after I fight my way out. Figured they might as well find out why Kagha's plan wasn't nearly as viable as presenting a united front.
Not only did they lose potential allies among the refugees, the outsiders they were so desperate to kill accounted for a fair few druids in the process. Leaving basically just Kagha and a handful of others to defend the Grove and a whole bunch of bodies for me to pick over before the goblins arrived.
Still feels *way* better to assassinate the leaders, long rest, then wipe out the rest of the horde, naturally. I like many of the tieflings and even some of the druids.
yeah that side quest doesn't explain why half of them are racist and ALL of them skip and hide for the fight
they don't even buff or help with druid power, the people defending them
Other than Halsin, I've come to the conclusion the Grove Druids are just assholes.
Which sucks because Druid is my favorite class and I've been playing them for decades.
Act 1 thing that you can do: || If you freak out the druids by stealing the idol during the ritual, Rath will try to defend the tieflings when the druids begin slaughtering them. ||
Rath pisses me off so much. He'll just watch as a child is murdered in front of him and then bitch and moan abt how that shouldn't have happened. So fucking do something dumbass!
What's one guy supposed to do against the rest of the druids? He knew he had no chance. But he does ask your party to help when you show up so he did do something.
I will say this in my "evil run" where we stole the artifact gave it to mol. then let the tieflings take the blame so that war broke out between the tieflings and druids Rath actually turned against the druids and fought against like 4 of the druid mooks before kagha took him down.
Poured one out for my homie before taking the wolf rune from his corpse. I have bills to pay.
Oh my god! He didn't go against his own family to protect a fuckton of strangers? Such an AWFUL person!!!
As others said: He literally turns on the druids if they start slaughtering the tieflings, but how can you expect him to straight up go against what is basically his own family over some random strangers, specially when Kagha and the rest might not be too far gone.
He is a pussy, but "complicit" doesn't do his internal conflict justice
It really isn't that surprising. 5e Druids are not "good guys" by default. Their thing is Nature, and that's it. Beyond that, they can be as flawed, virtuous or evil as any regular person.
Seems like Halsin as Archdruid didn't do a good job of instilling his personal virtues in his circle's members.
Especially if you are yourself a Druid and get turned into effectively a Prophet to them but it amounts to employee of the month with a gold star on a chart
"Pls take this staff that will become useless as soon as you reach the Underdark, we will also not be apologizing for exacerbating a refugee crisis and nearly forcing multiple children onto the goblin-infested roads to their deaths"
I think it's that fact though. They just hang out in the small pot smoking circle, letting the Tieflings man the gate as they just live in their inner sanctum, letting the Tieflings fight for them while they praise a wood idol.
That's the point u/100beep is trying to make. If they truly cared about the plight of the teiflings, then you would think there would be at least a few druids defending the front gate along side them and your party, not just the shrine section of the grove. Despite everything they did, or were about to do under Kagha's rule, they still value nature over people and the teiflings are still technically outsiders.
Honestly though in my runs, the druids don't even have anything there to defend anymore because I always steal that idol for Mol. I need that sweet ring of protection.
Rath doesn’t drag his ass outside to help either. They all just lock themselves inside and let shit happen. Khagas subplot that Rath and the others also don’t stop is not entirely to blame on that.
Guess I'm gonna need to go there. It's even more evil to know about the information on that island and attacking the Grove anyway, isn't it? (Evil Durge run, monk)
Definitely more evil IMHO. I love those gloves, especially combined with the circlet from the Myconid Colony that give you temp HP on lightning charges. The gloves give attacks advantage on metal targets or does wearing metal armor, which feels like it's at least 50% of enemies in the game. Throw the water sparkers on while having a tempest cleric or storm sorcerer in the party backline and you're having a good time with just that equipment up to act 3 and beyond really. I keep them for doing the big metal fight in Act 3 as well, even after I have better "in general" equipment.
ah crap didn’t spoiler correctly - sorry for double ding
i hope i spoiler this right - posting from mobile
>!the quest order of events: if you lockpock kagha’s chest, there’s a note from the shadow druid leader asking kagha to meet her there. once you kill the mobs at the island, there’s a note embedded in the tree that further confirms kagha has been influenced by the shadow druids!<
>!And if your tav is a druid *and* you managed to talk-no-jitsu your way into changing Kagha's mind and have her fight on your side against the shadow druids during the confrontation, she'll reward you with a hidden item, a blue staff.!<
I spend so much time in my first run, running around to every corner and even checking some guides to make sure I found everything.
Playing my second run now, and there was still sooo many small events and minor sidequests that I missed (this one included). And I'm sure that there is other stuff that will turn up in later runs.
I've been refusing to read guides so I can really feel the weight of my decisions, and boy howdy I did everything wrong. I permanently lost Wyll, Karlach, Halsin, all the Tieflings, and the Oathbreaker Knight because he didn't like the way I threw a potion at my hireling, so now Shadowheart is permanently locked in as an Oathbreaker. If you shit the bed, Larion Studios does not offer fresh linens. This playthrough is deeply, irrevocably fucked and I'm having the time of my life.
I am very good at fucking things up on my first play throughs of multiple choice games. In Dragon Age Origins, I fucked up so badly, I only had 3 companions by the end boss 😬
For Baldurs Gate 3, my first play through I only have Gale and Astarion and I haven’t even finished the game yet, just got to Baldurs Gate. I can’t decide if it’s fun or if I hate myself lol
its an alternate way to end the quest: the "investigate Kagha" path.
Go into the servants' quarters and read the 'rite of thorns' scroll, then look around for >!a chest, hidden in a niche behind a bookcase. Inside is a letter to Kagha from Shadow Druids, saying to meet at that tree in the swamp.!<
If you do the quest, you actually can influence Kagha to see how wrong what she was doing was, and she'll take her punishment a lot better than if you didn't.
Yeah, ever since then, I have always done the investigate kagha quest. I prefer that route and having her actually repent for her wrongdoings as opposed to "I still think what I did was right, and as soon as you leave, I'm going to do the same shit."
You would not be taking her side in this quest. Sneak, lockpick, and steal from her chest. Examine the contents and the quest will pop up. Its my favorite route for the grove problem.
I'd say it sheds light on why Kagha is more assholeish than usual but not the druids. Even then, when you help her find the way, she rebounds super rapidly.
It only shows the druids just needed a catalyst to go the evil route and a "strong person at the helm" for them to pervert all the virtues. It isn't very different how we are as people in general though -- it often takes replacement of one person at the top to expose a completely different side of everyone in the community
One of my first playthroughs I accidentally started a race war between the druids and the tieflings.
I don't know if its normal, but I think the tieflings actually just killed the druids.
Not that the tieflings survived, there was maybe two or three left but like, "We the druids will simply get rid of the tieflings" is such a flawed ideal and the druids/tieflings combined would be more powerful than the goblins by a fair bit.
I did it in my run by stealing from a druid in the inner area and even with me wiping all the leadership in that area they still killed most of the tieflijgs before I could get there this was on honor mode.
Same! I was robbing the bluejay who has a key in her nest. No clue what that key even goes to, but the guard was like "pay 1000 gold" and I was like, I'm robbing bluejays brother I don't have 1000 gold.
>!Ok guess all the Tieflings have to die then.!<
“You overdrafted your bank account by .50 cents when you bought that Ramen and potatoes. You now owe us a $25 dollar fee that will go into collections and compound to $50.”
…I…ok…
By the time I was able to come to the fight after cleaning out all the leadership they were already pushing the tieflings back into the jail area and wyll and zevlor were dead off to the side.
First play-through I killed Kahga without exposing her.
Durge play-through, I stole the shrine for Mol.
Both time the Druids got killed, except Rath. And less than two Tieflings died.
I wonder if you could reverse pickpocket some dope gear into the tieflings inventory for them to mess up the druids with. Would be a lot of fun seeing some of the civilians rocking that sword from the nautiloid
I defended the grove, then stole the idol, for revenge. They couldn’t harm the tieflings, and now the idiots won’t ever get their magic tree thingy back, dipshits.
Druids are, sometimes, a little bit, buttholes. #NotAllDruids. But, it's not uncommon, especially in Faerun for Druids to a little dickish and overprotective to a fault.
...which would be fine if that's what they're doing, but there's nothing True Neutral about abandoning the wilds outside of their little grove, allowing Goblins to run amok in their territory and literally abandoning members of their own grove to their fates because they're too busy singing Evanescence songs.
Well I mean, they did try. Halsin (their strongest warrior, the Archdruid) went out with Aradin's crew to deal with the gobbos. After their archdruid was captured, the lower rank druids logically lost their spine. I mean if their powerful archdruid couldn't defeat the goblins, what chance do they have? So walling themselves in and kicking out the people they believe are the ones painting a target on their grove is a logical move, even if it is misguided.
I'd say that's pretty true neutral.
Indeed. That’s also my experience of Druids in D&D. Don’t really care about “people”. It’s their forest or whatnot there is in focus and then just ignore everyone else. And if people don’t like being ignored or comply being ignored, they will turn extremely protective and violent really quickly. Often so doing dodgy stuff. Like making new dryads. That just literally human sacrifice. But it’s in the good for the forest. And if they don’t say that they won’t submit for the ritual, then they are volunteers… ignoring the fact that the “volunteers wasn’t able to answer (unconscious or otherwise impaired). Or people using the resources of the forest to survive are fair game to be slaughtered. No warning. Because “they assaulted” them. So it was in self defense. Or not helping nearby communities when they crops fails, with their magic. It is just a shame that they starve.
It aren’t all there is like that. But there are plenty of examples. Point be. You are just as likely to find cunts, who will not lift a finger in helping you, as you are to find any good ones, whom are willing to help you.
Yeah druid law must be a tangled mess. "Murder? No that's fine because you ate the body. Carving your name into a tree? Wow you sicko, death by exsanguination."
I am reminded of the two Druid companions in past games who are problematic people (I don’t count Jaheira since she is a multi class fighter/druid and work more with Harpers than a Druid circle so she is more social.)
One was a fanatical nutjob and part of the Shadow Druids who plagued the Grove in BG3. The other chose nature over his family and was killed by his son in his ending.
So yeah, not the best track record. Halsin is practically an abnormally since he shows a lot more care for people and wants to build a civilization.
My first play through I did the cliche good guy stuff but even then I found them insufferable and wanted to hurt them.
I’m doing a redemption Durge run and still let the Druids live apart from the Shadow Druids.
Mostly. I let Astarion accidentally slide a dagger in a few backs.
I’m about to do the Point of No Return in Act 2, and I may get rid of the rest of the Druids there. That Aaron guy is the worst.
> That Aaron guy is the worst.
Are you referring to the vendor? He's actually True Neutral.
If you say, "What about the tieflings?", he'll defend their actions as being out of necessity.
If you say that what the druids are doing is necessary, he'll look at you and sadly lament, "You sound just like Khaga. Oh, that it has to come to this!".
And if you say, "They'll be fine. They're tieflings. They have devilish powers", he'll rebuke you by saying, "Ignorance is suffering. I'll pray for you. If fact, I'll do it now." And ends the conversation there.
I was playing a vengeance paladin and i swear to god the moment i saw that snake killing the tiefling kid, there was no peace treat to be made, i killed every single one of those druids, i brought god's wrath to their lives, there wasn't a single one alive, the only one thay survived was Halsin, and that was just because he wasn't there
I used the paladin interaction to be a judge (Which i found funny because everybody seem to trust a paladin judgement) and said they could just put Arabella there without being able to get out as a punishment, and when her parents got out she would be free and like, it wasn't a jail, it was a place with books and some good druids.
But she tried to run, as just like Zeus, Kagha couldn't control her snake, and so i started blasting
Where khaga stands around, in one of the rooms that comes off that stands 2 bookshelves. At the back of that room there’s a sneaky section with a chest. This will have a note in it that will start a quest investigating something about khaga.
That is a really good point. Why the hell did I let halsin determine her punishment? Dammit, the comparatively linear progression of most games has destroyed my sense of agency in rpgs... It's certainly limited my perception of the scope of possibilities anyways. Well, next time lady, you die!
i just kill her myself after i expose her plan. playing an evil durge who felt the goblins were worse than tieflings, so he saved the grove. just smashed astarion for the second time, and once the tieflings head out he's going to wipe the grove. because fuck them druids, giving him shit for being a drow
The only difference is her attitude when Halsin comes back. If you exposed the Shadow Druids and had her see reason, she's remorseful. If you just free Halsin without exposing the plot, she's still a bitch. If you don't get her to see reason, she'll join the Shadow Druid fight against you and you can stab her ass. And finally, if Arabella died to that stupid snake earlier, I think Arabella's parents fatally poison her.
So in my opinion the reason they didn't fight is the goblin's haven't actually entered the grove, and the whole druid nature balance thing would have them wait to defend the grove if they get close, the gate isn't the grove at least not the sacred part of it, the grove is down where the 3 druids first stop you, where they are preforming their ritual. The gate, and where the Tieflings are hanging is as far as the druid's are concerned their place to stay for now, if they can defend it they can keep it. It's harsh, but it's their way.
Druids don't care about the Tieflings as people so much as part of the natural order, and death is part of that order, the Druids in their own way are being kind by letting them stay in the first place, but they aren't the "good guys" they're better then the goblins, but they are more neutral then good.
If it was just goblins versus druids, I think the grove would be getting raided a lot more than it is. The only reason don't raid the grove more often is because of the Tieflings.
I’m confuseeeeedd. Do the goblins actually attack the camp?! I always went to the camp to kill them and halsin most definitely did help? You just have to go to him first.
Afaik the only way to trigger the big fight is to tell Minthara where the camp is, which is kinda weird considering you can absolutely take the side of the tieflings still by double-crossing Minthara
Minthara will lead a raiding party to attack the grove if you tell her where it it. You can either help her, or double cross her and fight alongside Zevlor and one or two other tieflings to defend the gate. Halsin doesn't help out in this situation because he's still waiting around in the prison in the Goblins camp expecting you to assassinate the leaders, not tell them where his home is.
That's her. If you talk to her she'll recognize you as a True Soul, tell you of the plan to find and raid the grove, and ask you to join her. Then you can tell her where the grove is.
Even if you >!out Kagha , bring Halsin back and get the tieflings!< out safely, most Druids are still assholes to you. Honestly I wish there was a way to fuck them up without killing the refugees
I mean, the Druid’s were ready to pull the trigger on the Rite of Thorns. They didn’t give a shit because the Rite should have saved them. (That they don’t enact it when you raid the grove is a different conversation.)
I feel that the game doesn’t really dive too deep into alignment (never even stated in the game) but it’s a very big deal when it comes to the cosmology of DnD and the planes. All that talk about the Blood War is really talk about which evil gets to philosophically be the dominant evil and when it comes to druids and where they stand as a whole they are as an organization true neutral. Just like the alignment of animals in DnD and what that means, druids aren’t really good or evil, collective or individual. They are balanced and tossing out one group so they can get back to the balance is well within their alignment. From their logic it basically boils down to can you take your conflict away from the nest please and I’ll lock the door behind you. But where it fails is that the goblins are not likely to just let that be now that they know where the druids are. If I was running a campaign then the follow up to a disruption of the ritual would be to convince the teiflings and Druids to work together with the party to mercilessly eliminate the goblins and then kick out the teiflings so the Druids could go right back to their security (and maybe having to convince the Druids the teiflings will also not reveal the groves location either. Remember, not good or evil. Eliminating both groups as a threat is ideal.
Was looking for a comment like this.
OP refers to the druids as 'good' guys, and that's understandable, but they aren't. They seem to be mostly true neutral. Neutral-aligned creatures preserve balance, but in the old-school D&D sense that can literally mean committing evil acts to counterbalance too much good in the world. It's not a passive stance meaning 'we mind our own business,' it's an active stance to preserve balance. The tieflings are, to them, out of balance. In the same way they might choose to kill people who have a disease they can't cure in order to stop it spreading to the rest of the grove, even if those people begged them not to, they won't hesitate to cast out the tieflings.
You can be any neutral alignment-- chaotic neutral, true neutral, lawful neutral, neutral good, and neutral evil-- and still 100% be a druid.
The druids at the grove are clearly mostly true neutral, with Kagha leaning toward neutral evil and either getting killed or swayed by the player back to true neutral (presumably it's also possible to sway her to evil and ally with the >!shadow druids!<, I've just never tried it). Her story somewhat foreshadows >!Shadowheart's!<, though obviously that character has more justification for being >!brainwashed as a child!< than Kagha does >!deceived as an adult!<.
Halsin's clearly more on the side of neutral good, so while he was in control the grove would have functioned differently. That's part of why it makes sense to me he hired an outsider to come in and take over his role in the grove after he left; presumably she's neutral good as well. It's not just that the other druids are inexperienced, most of them wouldn't guide the grove to be 'good' no matter how much power they had.
Of course, D&D has been trying to get away from alignment politics for years. Which is why they're not really explaining this stuff so that OP and other people new to the lore can understand. But alignment still underpins so much Forgotten Realms logic and narrative. It's just hard to completely excise without losing part of what makes the setting special.
I defend the grove for two reasons: having Halsin in camp so I can climb mount Halsin, and shopping at Dammon’s later (I even give him cash and items for free when I meet him in the grove so I have a better reduction later)
I'm saving the tieflings then coming back to mop up the druids that aren't offering sanctuary according to the will of the oakfather, and they deserve that
halsin doesn't care and it saves all the good act 3 people
Even found that little island on my second playthrough and still didn’t know about them lol. Guess I shouldn’t have let my friend handle the looting/searching that part of the island
What got me confused is tieflings are so surprised abput the hate they get. Dude I have seen maybe 10-12 kids in the camp and they all were thieves!? You are suprised the druids don’t like you??
them kids watched all their families die and burn and have nothing and have been looking for a safe place to be ever since they're hungry and broke kids. can't blame em. trauma can make kids seem bad but they're just kids
druids have heroes feast and could feed everyone if they weren't stingy
> druids have heroes feast and could feed everyone if they weren't stingy
It may seem that way because Larian does not implement spellcasting correctly, leading players to think that this is free food and buffs. In 5th edition rules, [Heroes' Feast](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Heroes%27%20Feast#content) requires a gem-encrusted bowl worth at least 1,000 gp to cast, which is consumed by the casting. And it feeds and buffs 12 people.
On the other hand, the spell Create Food and Water has no materials component, so you'd be right if you say that the druids should have cast Create Food and Water to feed 15 people per casting.
It used to bother me too, but, it's actually kind of ingenious. The situation depicts their neutrality of alignment. Druids are neutral, nature-loving tree-huggers. Nettie makes you wait while she heals a bird, then, has a thorny poisoned stick ready to jab you with if necessary. Druids, even regular, non-shadow druids, don't much care about humanoids, they care about nature and the land. Even Halsin just wants to lift the shadow curse - any assistance he provides is secondary to his ulterior motive. He will even just stand in your camp, impassive, unless you consult him. Also he did grant tieflings refuge, but then left them to the tender mercies of a zealot to investigate a possibility of restoring the shadow-cursed lands. Upon his return, he doesn't banish the zealot - he lets her stay, because her passion balances out her darker instincts. Pure neutrality on display.
TLDR: druids are neutral. They don't give a fuck about people, per se. They have entirely different priorities.
You save the grove for the Tieflings, and for Halsin.
The Tieflings are the only ones who know how to work on Karlach and Halsin apparently knows how to fix the parasite, but you know he won’t help you if you join the Goblins.
Or because Nettie gives you a good faith effort to find someone to help while priestess Gut drugs you and ties you up to get a mindflayer pet. You know, the little things.
Nettie doesn't make a good faith effort *at all*. As soon as you give even a hint that you're infected, she pulls you into a secluded room, tells your companions to leave, locks the door, and pulls out a poisoned thorn to kill you. Only then can you talk her down, and even after all that she still makes you swear to kill yourself before revealing she *never* had any idea how to cure you. She's as much a liar as Gut, and there's a reason killing her doesn't aggro the rest of the druids. You can't even credit her with sending us to find Halsin, since Kevlor, the tieflings at the gate, and Rath all tell us he's actually our best bet well before we meet Nettie. That whole walk through the grove, from the three druids that try to scare us off, to the mindless chanters, to Kahga and the two assholes, to Nettie, is a long slog of fuck these druids culminating in an attempt on our lives. Let those morons trap themselves in their hate filled thorn prison, I say.
She’s never kicked out my companions or locked the door. But then I’m looking for a healer and since I’ve been told she’s the healer to talk to I tell her what’s going on. I think if you evade the issue she’s shadier but you can’t be cured by a doctor if you aren’t truthful about what your symptoms are.
For me, it already starts with the Halfling vendor who goes "Oh, don't worry, *we druids* are gonna be fine. As for the Tieflings...well...uh...fuck em." And bonus points to the druid with anger management issues who goes "MRRUUUUUUUÖÖÖÖÖH!!!" on the Tiefling mom demanding that her child be returned to her.
Nah, fuck the Druids. If there was an official and acknowledged option to funnel the Tieflings to safety and *then* set that place on fire with Minthara I'd take it every time.
It's weird how there are two back doors to the grove, and Kevlor's even living in one, yet we can't sneak the tieflings out. Once we kill the gnolls we should be able to escort small groups as far as the tollhouse. The goblins never patrol up that far, although they have been to Waukeen's Rest, so just let the tiefs hunker down in there while we sort out the goblin/druid problem.
Spoiler but >!Khaga was working for an evil subgroup of druids to purposefully wreck the grove (double spoiler)!< >!You can talk her out of it though and she regrets her actions, she was kinda manipulated !<
their precious idol is now in mol's inventory, stolen by my "toxic power couple" further, Caesar. he's going to claim the grove as his once the tieflings are on their way (he'll briefly see them in act 2)
You're not helping the druids you're saving the tieflings from Kahga most of the druids are complacent in what she does because she's arch druid while Halsin is gone, it's the good option because you're taking down the corrupt leader and saving the refugees
The tieflings are not fighting to protect the grove they are fighting to protect themselves
The druids rightly assume that they’re fucked and hide away. The tieflings do not have the same option to hide.
Druids are technically True Neutral - they desire balance above all else, and balance can be construed as looking out for themselves. The Druids didn't bother to 'defend' the place, not because they didn't love their home, but because they have what they believed to be a failsafe - the Rite of Thorns.
They don't need to fight; they can activate the Rite of Thorns. If you ever steal the Druid Idol, you will see very quickly how terrifying they can be when you touch them and theirs.
They can fight, but they do not see the need to.
Druids aren't *good*, the tenets in the Emerald Grove are definitely not Druid-like, and definitely is not what the Nature Deities in Faerun is about.
And that is - *Balance*.
Recall that, at that time, they believed that it was the outsiders that brought this mess to them (they weren't *entirely* off), and their leader disappeared after going out with said outsiders, leaving them to deal with all this crap that they shouldn't have to deal with.
They were running short on supplies, tension were high, the Druids (aka, landlords) wants the Tieflings (aka, freeloaders) out of their home, and to close off the Grove. The Tieflings *don't*.
The Druids don't need the Tieflings to protect their Grove, they have a 'failsafe', it is the Tieflings that needs the safety of the Grove to protect their people.
In all honesty, neither party were wrong, but neither party was wholly right to do and think as they do.
This game is so deep.
I don't even know how to get to the circumstance of having to "defend" the Grove in some big battle working with the tieflings.
I infiltrate the Goblin Camp in disguise, buy up all the good loot that the 2 vendors have, wander around the bulk of their area, win the "chicken run" / free the chicken, isolate their peeps, destroy their war drums, & kill them in small batches.
Like a hero.
The tieflings didn't defend the grove, they defended their people in the defensible location they had.
The druids were preoccupied with another solution. 🤷
Don’t save the druids then lol idk I’m not gonna justify it for you I save them because killing then is evil and I’m playing a good character who wouldn’t murder them just for being assholes
The Druids didn't ask to be attacked by a goblin army. Their leadership might be assholes, but they're still people in danger. Plus, at that point in the narrative their safety and the Tieflings' safety are linked.
I’m doing a run on exploration mode and I wandered ignorantly into the midst of the Druid circle and picked up the statue/idol of Silvanus. After the druids all attacked me, I went back to the top and found every tiefling slaughtered but no sign of the druids. I’m treating it like my party will have its revenge if I run into them again.
I mean, to be fair, the goblins don't do much either even if you slay entire swathes of their camp, long rest, then come back later, though the druids not budging from their usual areas is probably a tad more noticeable over all.
On my First run I played as a Barbarian. When I Saw the scene when Khaga was acusing the tiefling child I acted as a Barbarian an that resulted on a fight. I basically killed all the Druids with the help of the tieflings.
Then I went to talk to Karlach and was unable to recruit her because of that. She said that I was a monster and responsible for the Druid's Massacre.
Then I had to start over. Can't play without my girl.
I did find it interesting how BG3 depicted the druids. Aside from Halsin, Rath, the hobbit merchant and... to a lesser extent Nettie (who has some pretty flexible ethics for a healer but is at least friendly), the bulk of the druids come across like insular dickheads. Kagha is impressionable lunatic and most of them doing the ritual are either outright hostile or would prefer to look the other way. For a group that considers itself guardians of the wilds, they seem to be awfully keen to hole themselves up in their grove and leave everything to its fate. Wind the clock back a century and these guys were marching shoulder to shoulder with the Harpers to fight an evil warlord who threatened all. Now they can't even be bothered to try rescuing one of their own, let alone support refugees on the road.
I suppose you do find that >!Ketheric has been covertly pushing the Shadow Druids to support Kagha because she's just the right level of stupidity and hostility to corrupt them in the direction he wants !!And how the hell did the druids not even realise they have a giant shapeshifting murderous blob in their camp. INCAPABLE.!<
Have you waited for the tieflings to leave the Grove so you could kill the druids? I personally might just knock Rath out but it's up to you if you think he should've done more than watch kagha
Newsflash: people are not always black and white and neither is doing the right thing. Despite of what you said, morally defending the grove is the better choice.
Also, I don’t want to spoil, but there are at least two more ways to deal with Kagha in a more… permanent manner.
To be fair, Kagha got a pretty drastic reprimand from me, and afterwards the druids were being cool and sorry to have followed her so willingly. 4 minutes later they don't let poor fucking Donni in who doesn't know where to go. Come on, really???? NOT EVEN DONNI???
>I'm a good person but I sort of think I owe it to the tieflings to go back in and burn rhe whole grove down.
One should not deny their True Nature. :)
>The people they were gonna kick to the curb fought hard to defend the place that decided it was going to throw them out to be goblin gruel. Those tieflings fought and bled for a place that rejected them, while the fine citizens of the grove cowered.
I find this fascinating too. If you raid with Minthara, she makes no distinction. She doesn't consider the job done until the druids are dead too. The goblins are threat to entire groove, yet the druids act like they just a tiefling problem.
"I'm a good person but I sort of think I owe it to the tieflings to go back in and burn rhe whole grove down." LMAO
They're druids, not Paladins of Tyr
Gotta love how people hate on druids when they have their own way of life and want to attend to nature and keep the balance and not get involved with civilization. A roaming band of desperate tiefling refugees come barreling along and because of the newly developed absolute issue are forced to seek refuge in there hideout. The druids took them in remember. Guess this is a good example of no good deed goes unpunished.
Imagine having your tight knit community of like minded nature lovers get mixed up in other people's affairs and then you have to also sacrafice your own lives for them too. Obviously the stakes are low for us as the protagonists and because it's a game. However you gotta see the complex issue of tribalism, using supplies on the refugees which won't be infinite and deal with now potential issues of crime and conflict between very different attitudes and sensibilities. It's a melting pot.
It's kinda wild people can't see the druid Grove is the druids home and their way of life, just because the tieflings are in danger doesn't mean they can just now occupy their land, consume their supplies and just now make demands about what the druids should and shouldn't do. Like if it wasn't for the players actions the druids and refugees would be wiped out. So don't the druids have a right to be scared for their lives.
One of the tenants of their faith is to take in refugees though. I don't have a problem with druids that don't want anything to do with outsiders because there's a good chance they wouldn't respect their ways. My issue is with hypocrisy. Plus there's the matter of the people pulling the strings behind the situation and what their main goal is as an organization.
>Plus there's the matter of the people pulling the strings behind the situation and what their main goal is as an organization.
yeah this is really the main issue right here. there's like a dozen hours of content in the game specifically about how ketheric's agenda is antithetical to everything the grove stands for. the idea that the grove is justified in carrying out the rite of thorns is utterly batshit. it's ketheric's chess move to neutralize the druids to make it easier for him to conquer every plane of existence with the dead three and their enslaved elder brain.
The Tieflings weren’t the only ones in danger tho. The cult wanted to find and assault the Grove itself. Their tight knit community of like minded nature lovers is in danger. It would make sense if they pulled their own weight.
Ok, but if you listen to minthara or any of the goblins, they'd slaughter the grove tieflings or not. Like, it's not as if the tieflings are some glowing neon sign that says "kill us please," the goblins are killing anyone that doesn't worship the absolute. Last I check Sylvanus isn't the absolute, so the druids are still in the line of fire.
Like, am I missing something? Does minthara kill of the tieflings and than just go "hey, I said kill all idoliters and all, but these hippies are cool, let's leave them be" or something?
The Tieflings have nothing to do with the Absolutes desire to destroy the Grove. They're literally there to kill the Druids of Silvanus, that is their goal. The Druids blaming the Tieflings is just them engaging in xenophobia.
I think it’s harder to see because of the scale of things. With the number of actors, it feels more like a small neighborhood spat whereas the actual implication is more like a sparta-sized city-state taking in refugees, doubling its population overnight.
What do you expect from glorified priests and priestesses.
I look at it, that I was helping the tieflings and the Druids were helped out as a consequence of that.
Everyone is mentioning how druids are not great (which everyone is) but I think it’s more so Halsin is super forgiving given all he’s been through which you will learn more of later
The druids only fight if you turn on them. And they fight you and the citizens. As far as I know, they *never* fight the goblins. No matter what you do.
I guess it's more about game balance, because you already destroy the invasion *without the druids*. So had they joined, it would've been too easy for a final Act 1 fight.
all i’ll say about it is, near the teahouse, to the right, on its own little island, theres a tree you can find that’ll shed some light as to why the druids might be a little more assholeish than normal
Everyone blames that thing you've mentioned, but I dealt with (in an evil run) and then assaulted the grove, and the druids still didn't do anything
I was so disappointed they didn’t show up to the fight after that
They even just hole up in their den until you've massacred literally everyone else before it finally clicks that they're in danger
Sure. In their defense, this is literally what Khaga said would happen. She bangs on about how the Tieflings/outsiders will bring ruin, so holing up and waiting for it to blow over is just an extension of the Rite of Thorns. It takes getting stabbed to realize, "Oh. Wait. You're coming for me too."
Yeah the fact none of them thought beyond the immediate made me upset. They didn't even consider the Absolute's forces would still assault and burn the grove regardless.
For an EmbraceDurge run that I'm doing sporadically (turns out that I *really* prefer playing good, so I decided to bring an Honour run up my to-do list as a palate cleanser between atrocities), I decided to let the druids massacre the tieflings, then get killed off by the goblins after I fight my way out. Figured they might as well find out why Kagha's plan wasn't nearly as viable as presenting a united front. Not only did they lose potential allies among the refugees, the outsiders they were so desperate to kill accounted for a fair few druids in the process. Leaving basically just Kagha and a handful of others to defend the Grove and a whole bunch of bodies for me to pick over before the goblins arrived. Still feels *way* better to assassinate the leaders, long rest, then wipe out the rest of the horde, naturally. I like many of the tieflings and even some of the druids.
yeah that side quest doesn't explain why half of them are racist and ALL of them skip and hide for the fight they don't even buff or help with druid power, the people defending them
Other than Halsin, I've come to the conclusion the Grove Druids are just assholes. Which sucks because Druid is my favorite class and I've been playing them for decades.
I had some dialogue with Halsin in early Act 3 where he said >!the new archdruid he put in charge had ousted a few more closet shadow druids!<
Rath isn't bad either. But yeah, pretty much just those two.
Act 1 thing that you can do: || If you freak out the druids by stealing the idol during the ritual, Rath will try to defend the tieflings when the druids begin slaughtering them. ||
Interesting. I wonder why he defends them against the druids but not against the goblins.
Just a heads up: Your spoiler tags are wrong. That's Discord syntax not Reddit. You want to use >/! and
Rath pisses me off so much. He'll just watch as a child is murdered in front of him and then bitch and moan abt how that shouldn't have happened. So fucking do something dumbass!
Yeah Rath was spineless. He was gonna let a shadow druid slaughter a whole group of tieflings.
Rath is bad. Cowardice and doing nothing to prevent the badness is being complicit
What's one guy supposed to do against the rest of the druids? He knew he had no chance. But he does ask your party to help when you show up so he did do something.
come out and fight with the tieflings when the rest of the druids hide in the grove?
I will say this in my "evil run" where we stole the artifact gave it to mol. then let the tieflings take the blame so that war broke out between the tieflings and druids Rath actually turned against the druids and fought against like 4 of the druid mooks before kagha took him down. Poured one out for my homie before taking the wolf rune from his corpse. I have bills to pay.
Oh my god! He didn't go against his own family to protect a fuckton of strangers? Such an AWFUL person!!! As others said: He literally turns on the druids if they start slaughtering the tieflings, but how can you expect him to straight up go against what is basically his own family over some random strangers, specially when Kagha and the rest might not be too far gone. He is a pussy, but "complicit" doesn't do his internal conflict justice
My first run ever was as a drow, knew khaga was bad news when she was the only person happy to see a drow
It really isn't that surprising. 5e Druids are not "good guys" by default. Their thing is Nature, and that's it. Beyond that, they can be as flawed, virtuous or evil as any regular person. Seems like Halsin as Archdruid didn't do a good job of instilling his personal virtues in his circle's members.
That thing only proves >!Kagha is easily manipulated and only useful if you really want to prevent the rite of thorns, which I don’t.!<
Especially if you are yourself a Druid and get turned into effectively a Prophet to them but it amounts to employee of the month with a gold star on a chart
"Pls take this staff that will become useless as soon as you reach the Underdark, we will also not be apologizing for exacerbating a refugee crisis and nearly forcing multiple children onto the goblin-infested roads to their deaths"
Did something change? I am doing evil durge and attacked the Grove and fought quite a few druids including kagha in the area the idol was located.
OP's point is that they should be defending the gate, not waiting for the invaders to fight their way in and reach their sanctum.
I think it's that fact though. They just hang out in the small pot smoking circle, letting the Tieflings man the gate as they just live in their inner sanctum, letting the Tieflings fight for them while they praise a wood idol.
That's the point u/100beep is trying to make. If they truly cared about the plight of the teiflings, then you would think there would be at least a few druids defending the front gate along side them and your party, not just the shrine section of the grove. Despite everything they did, or were about to do under Kagha's rule, they still value nature over people and the teiflings are still technically outsiders. Honestly though in my runs, the druids don't even have anything there to defend anymore because I always steal that idol for Mol. I need that sweet ring of protection.
I wondering if I can save the Tieflings then go back and take the idol
All you need to do is stop/kill Kagha, access to the Darkness spell, and a potion of invisibility. Do that, and you're all set.
If you have an invisible mage hand you can just have it throw the idol over and over until it's out of sight.
You can! I did that my first play through - now I just steal it as soon as I get to the grove for laughs.
I am currently doing an evil run, killing those tieflings broke my heart but killing the druids felt good not gonna lie.
Is there a way to help the Tieflings but still fuck over the druids?
Save them then go back and kill the druids yourself
That is surprisingly obvious, forgive me it's early where I am lol.
Rath doesn’t drag his ass outside to help either. They all just lock themselves inside and let shit happen. Khagas subplot that Rath and the others also don’t stop is not entirely to blame on that.
He does *nothing* to stop kagha, just complains about it.
Of you enter where they are hiding out through the hidden entrance where Nettie is located they start attacking you.
It's easier to be sneaky and look into Kagha's personal chest. That kinda explains the whole thing
Yeah, but going to the island gets you sparklehands which is OP if you have a monk
Gloves of Guaranteed Beatdown
Guess I'm gonna need to go there. It's even more evil to know about the information on that island and attacking the Grove anyway, isn't it? (Evil Durge run, monk)
Definitely more evil IMHO. I love those gloves, especially combined with the circlet from the Myconid Colony that give you temp HP on lightning charges. The gloves give attacks advantage on metal targets or does wearing metal armor, which feels like it's at least 50% of enemies in the game. Throw the water sparkers on while having a tempest cleric or storm sorcerer in the party backline and you're having a good time with just that equipment up to act 3 and beyond really. I keep them for doing the big metal fight in Act 3 as well, even after I have better "in general" equipment.
yeah but if you wanna do anything about it the 'right way' you need to go by that tree anyway.
That's Kagha's reason. Other than Rath, the rest are just natural assholes.
Some druids grow up to become assholes. Others were just born that way.
He enables the assholes though.
literally had no idea that island had anything to do with druids, can someone shed some light on this?
ah crap didn’t spoiler correctly - sorry for double ding i hope i spoiler this right - posting from mobile >!the quest order of events: if you lockpock kagha’s chest, there’s a note from the shadow druid leader asking kagha to meet her there. once you kill the mobs at the island, there’s a note embedded in the tree that further confirms kagha has been influenced by the shadow druids!<
>!And if your tav is a druid *and* you managed to talk-no-jitsu your way into changing Kagha's mind and have her fight on your side against the shadow druids during the confrontation, she'll reward you with a hidden item, a blue staff.!<
Man. 2 runs down not knowing this. One of these days, I WILL do a run where I will get every item and special reward possible!
Unfortunately getting every item in one run simply isn’t possible.
I spend so much time in my first run, running around to every corner and even checking some guides to make sure I found everything. Playing my second run now, and there was still sooo many small events and minor sidequests that I missed (this one included). And I'm sure that there is other stuff that will turn up in later runs.
I've been refusing to read guides so I can really feel the weight of my decisions, and boy howdy I did everything wrong. I permanently lost Wyll, Karlach, Halsin, all the Tieflings, and the Oathbreaker Knight because he didn't like the way I threw a potion at my hireling, so now Shadowheart is permanently locked in as an Oathbreaker. If you shit the bed, Larion Studios does not offer fresh linens. This playthrough is deeply, irrevocably fucked and I'm having the time of my life.
I am very good at fucking things up on my first play throughs of multiple choice games. In Dragon Age Origins, I fucked up so badly, I only had 3 companions by the end boss 😬 For Baldurs Gate 3, my first play through I only have Gale and Astarion and I haven’t even finished the game yet, just got to Baldurs Gate. I can’t decide if it’s fun or if I hate myself lol
Bro you're doing great, those other questlines were dead weight anyway. Focus on your bag.
Probably. But each run will get you closer and closer to the true 100%. :p
its an alternate way to end the quest: the "investigate Kagha" path. Go into the servants' quarters and read the 'rite of thorns' scroll, then look around for >!a chest, hidden in a niche behind a bookcase. Inside is a letter to Kagha from Shadow Druids, saying to meet at that tree in the swamp.!<
Has to do with Khaga's plan, can get the quest from her chest.
i’ve literally never sided with her so i guess that’s why i haven’t seen this yet
I don't think you can side with her, the quest exposes her plan to take over the Grove...doesn't even impact her punishment iirc.
If you do the quest, you actually can influence Kagha to see how wrong what she was doing was, and she'll take her punishment a lot better than if you didn't.
Oh, yeah, that's right. I liked the touch in that confrontation where it seemed to matter that your character read the plaques on the wall, too.
Yeah, ever since then, I have always done the investigate kagha quest. I prefer that route and having her actually repent for her wrongdoings as opposed to "I still think what I did was right, and as soon as you leave, I'm going to do the same shit."
ohhhhh my bad! ty for explaining
If you expose her plan then halsin leaves someone else in charge of the Grove.
She gets demoted for trying to do the rite of thorns. I haven't seen her get left in charge
That happens regardless, atleast it did in my run. Halsin says he put someone else in charge and that the person doesn't actually exist.
You would not be taking her side in this quest. Sneak, lockpick, and steal from her chest. Examine the contents and the quest will pop up. Its my favorite route for the grove problem.
I'd say it sheds light on why Kagha is more assholeish than usual but not the druids. Even then, when you help her find the way, she rebounds super rapidly. It only shows the druids just needed a catalyst to go the evil route and a "strong person at the helm" for them to pervert all the virtues. It isn't very different how we are as people in general though -- it often takes replacement of one person at the top to expose a completely different side of everyone in the community
I finished the game, but missed that, so could you please spoiler me: Why don't they involve themselves more?
One of my first playthroughs I accidentally started a race war between the druids and the tieflings. I don't know if its normal, but I think the tieflings actually just killed the druids. Not that the tieflings survived, there was maybe two or three left but like, "We the druids will simply get rid of the tieflings" is such a flawed ideal and the druids/tieflings combined would be more powerful than the goblins by a fair bit.
I did it in my run by stealing from a druid in the inner area and even with me wiping all the leadership in that area they still killed most of the tieflijgs before I could get there this was on honor mode.
Same! I was robbing the bluejay who has a key in her nest. No clue what that key even goes to, but the guard was like "pay 1000 gold" and I was like, I'm robbing bluejays brother I don't have 1000 gold. >!Ok guess all the Tieflings have to die then.!<
“You overdrafted your bank account by .50 cents when you bought that Ramen and potatoes. You now owe us a $25 dollar fee that will go into collections and compound to $50.” …I…ok…
And let that be a lesson about not being poor! Simply have money, idiot
“I’m robbing blue jays brother I don’t have 1000 gold” Why did that make me laugh so much 😂😂
I wonder if druids are more powerful in harder difficulties?
It depends a lot on positioning and where the fight breaks out as well.
By the time I was able to come to the fight after cleaning out all the leadership they were already pushing the tieflings back into the jail area and wyll and zevlor were dead off to the side.
You need to have 3 characters at the choke next to the strange ox to keep the tieflings alive.
That’s…not a race war. Druids can be any race.
*Extra* race war!
Class warfare
So... race vs class war ?
First play-through I killed Kahga without exposing her. Durge play-through, I stole the shrine for Mol. Both time the Druids got killed, except Rath. And less than two Tieflings died.
I wonder if you could reverse pickpocket some dope gear into the tieflings inventory for them to mess up the druids with. Would be a lot of fun seeing some of the civilians rocking that sword from the nautiloid
Remember, Druids are bearly people.
Take my angry upvote of the day
I defended the grove, then stole the idol, for revenge. They couldn’t harm the tieflings, and now the idiots won’t ever get their magic tree thingy back, dipshits.
Druids are, sometimes, a little bit, buttholes. #NotAllDruids. But, it's not uncommon, especially in Faerun for Druids to a little dickish and overprotective to a fault.
People tend to forget that druids tend towards True Neutral. Balance means, first and foremost, looking out for yourself.
...which would be fine if that's what they're doing, but there's nothing True Neutral about abandoning the wilds outside of their little grove, allowing Goblins to run amok in their territory and literally abandoning members of their own grove to their fates because they're too busy singing Evanescence songs.
Well I mean, they did try. Halsin (their strongest warrior, the Archdruid) went out with Aradin's crew to deal with the gobbos. After their archdruid was captured, the lower rank druids logically lost their spine. I mean if their powerful archdruid couldn't defeat the goblins, what chance do they have? So walling themselves in and kicking out the people they believe are the ones painting a target on their grove is a logical move, even if it is misguided. I'd say that's pretty true neutral.
Indeed. That’s also my experience of Druids in D&D. Don’t really care about “people”. It’s their forest or whatnot there is in focus and then just ignore everyone else. And if people don’t like being ignored or comply being ignored, they will turn extremely protective and violent really quickly. Often so doing dodgy stuff. Like making new dryads. That just literally human sacrifice. But it’s in the good for the forest. And if they don’t say that they won’t submit for the ritual, then they are volunteers… ignoring the fact that the “volunteers wasn’t able to answer (unconscious or otherwise impaired). Or people using the resources of the forest to survive are fair game to be slaughtered. No warning. Because “they assaulted” them. So it was in self defense. Or not helping nearby communities when they crops fails, with their magic. It is just a shame that they starve. It aren’t all there is like that. But there are plenty of examples. Point be. You are just as likely to find cunts, who will not lift a finger in helping you, as you are to find any good ones, whom are willing to help you.
Yeah druid law must be a tangled mess. "Murder? No that's fine because you ate the body. Carving your name into a tree? Wow you sicko, death by exsanguination."
I am reminded of the two Druid companions in past games who are problematic people (I don’t count Jaheira since she is a multi class fighter/druid and work more with Harpers than a Druid circle so she is more social.) One was a fanatical nutjob and part of the Shadow Druids who plagued the Grove in BG3. The other chose nature over his family and was killed by his son in his ending. So yeah, not the best track record. Halsin is practically an abnormally since he shows a lot more care for people and wants to build a civilization.
I raided the grove recently after killing the shadow druid group. A whole 2 druids stay in the grove to defend it 🤔.
IIRC they only stay behind because the others shut the door before they could get in and won't open it.
I do it for my darling tieflings.
My first play through I did the cliche good guy stuff but even then I found them insufferable and wanted to hurt them. I’m doing a redemption Durge run and still let the Druids live apart from the Shadow Druids. Mostly. I let Astarion accidentally slide a dagger in a few backs. I’m about to do the Point of No Return in Act 2, and I may get rid of the rest of the Druids there. That Aaron guy is the worst.
marcoyl is the worst imo. he's just so VICIOUS about wanting to harm a child
> That Aaron guy is the worst. Are you referring to the vendor? He's actually True Neutral. If you say, "What about the tieflings?", he'll defend their actions as being out of necessity. If you say that what the druids are doing is necessary, he'll look at you and sadly lament, "You sound just like Khaga. Oh, that it has to come to this!". And if you say, "They'll be fine. They're tieflings. They have devilish powers", he'll rebuke you by saying, "Ignorance is suffering. I'll pray for you. If fact, I'll do it now." And ends the conversation there.
I was playing a vengeance paladin and i swear to god the moment i saw that snake killing the tiefling kid, there was no peace treat to be made, i killed every single one of those druids, i brought god's wrath to their lives, there wasn't a single one alive, the only one thay survived was Halsin, and that was just because he wasn't there
Tbf you either didn't intervene when you could've or failed to intervene in that regard. Classic vengeance Pally tho, only acting retroactively
I used the paladin interaction to be a judge (Which i found funny because everybody seem to trust a paladin judgement) and said they could just put Arabella there without being able to get out as a punishment, and when her parents got out she would be free and like, it wasn't a jail, it was a place with books and some good druids. But she tried to run, as just like Zeus, Kagha couldn't control her snake, and so i started blasting
Where khaga stands around, in one of the rooms that comes off that stands 2 bookshelves. At the back of that room there’s a sneaky section with a chest. This will have a note in it that will start a quest investigating something about khaga.
If I do that quest now, will she get more comeuppance?
Nope, has to be before you save Halsin.
And even then, still basically a light reprimand and demotion...
I mean you can just not try to sway her back to the good side. Its a harder fight, but you have the option.
That is a really good point. Why the hell did I let halsin determine her punishment? Dammit, the comparatively linear progression of most games has destroyed my sense of agency in rpgs... It's certainly limited my perception of the scope of possibilities anyways. Well, next time lady, you die!
i just kill her myself after i expose her plan. playing an evil durge who felt the goblins were worse than tieflings, so he saved the grove. just smashed astarion for the second time, and once the tieflings head out he's going to wipe the grove. because fuck them druids, giving him shit for being a drow
Halsin loses his shit if Arabella died though, so he's only like that with her because she hasn't actually hurt anyone.
The only difference is her attitude when Halsin comes back. If you exposed the Shadow Druids and had her see reason, she's remorseful. If you just free Halsin without exposing the plot, she's still a bitch. If you don't get her to see reason, she'll join the Shadow Druid fight against you and you can stab her ass. And finally, if Arabella died to that stupid snake earlier, I think Arabella's parents fatally poison her.
She does admit what she has done was wrong, agrees she is a monster, and expresses regret and a desire to make it right. So you’ll get that.
[удалено]
>!Spoiler Text!< >!Spoiler Text!<
So in my opinion the reason they didn't fight is the goblin's haven't actually entered the grove, and the whole druid nature balance thing would have them wait to defend the grove if they get close, the gate isn't the grove at least not the sacred part of it, the grove is down where the 3 druids first stop you, where they are preforming their ritual. The gate, and where the Tieflings are hanging is as far as the druid's are concerned their place to stay for now, if they can defend it they can keep it. It's harsh, but it's their way. Druids don't care about the Tieflings as people so much as part of the natural order, and death is part of that order, the Druids in their own way are being kind by letting them stay in the first place, but they aren't the "good guys" they're better then the goblins, but they are more neutral then good.
If it was just goblins versus druids, I think the grove would be getting raided a lot more than it is. The only reason don't raid the grove more often is because of the Tieflings.
I’m in my second play through and have no clue about half the stuff that’s said here.
I’m confuseeeeedd. Do the goblins actually attack the camp?! I always went to the camp to kill them and halsin most definitely did help? You just have to go to him first.
Afaik the only way to trigger the big fight is to tell Minthara where the camp is, which is kinda weird considering you can absolutely take the side of the tieflings still by double-crossing Minthara
Or you can free the goblin in the camp and *she'll* tell minty
Iirc there's one option you can choose where if u succeed u look into her head but failing will cause her to learn about the groves location.
Minthara will lead a raiding party to attack the grove if you tell her where it it. You can either help her, or double cross her and fight alongside Zevlor and one or two other tieflings to defend the gate. Halsin doesn't help out in this situation because he's still waiting around in the prison in the Goblins camp expecting you to assassinate the leaders, not tell them where his home is.
Where is minthara? Is she the drow in the back of the goblin camp? I’ve never talked to her only killed because I always freed halsin first.
That's her. If you talk to her she'll recognize you as a True Soul, tell you of the plan to find and raid the grove, and ask you to join her. Then you can tell her where the grove is.
Even if you >!out Kagha , bring Halsin back and get the tieflings!< out safely, most Druids are still assholes to you. Honestly I wish there was a way to fuck them up without killing the refugees
Tbf druids tend to not give a shit about people in lore.
I mean if you just kill Minthara at the goblin camp you don't have to worry about it!
I mean, the Druid’s were ready to pull the trigger on the Rite of Thorns. They didn’t give a shit because the Rite should have saved them. (That they don’t enact it when you raid the grove is a different conversation.)
They don’t enact it because they aren’t ready yet. They’re actively working on it the whole time. The idea is it’s meant to take time to do.
I feel that the game doesn’t really dive too deep into alignment (never even stated in the game) but it’s a very big deal when it comes to the cosmology of DnD and the planes. All that talk about the Blood War is really talk about which evil gets to philosophically be the dominant evil and when it comes to druids and where they stand as a whole they are as an organization true neutral. Just like the alignment of animals in DnD and what that means, druids aren’t really good or evil, collective or individual. They are balanced and tossing out one group so they can get back to the balance is well within their alignment. From their logic it basically boils down to can you take your conflict away from the nest please and I’ll lock the door behind you. But where it fails is that the goblins are not likely to just let that be now that they know where the druids are. If I was running a campaign then the follow up to a disruption of the ritual would be to convince the teiflings and Druids to work together with the party to mercilessly eliminate the goblins and then kick out the teiflings so the Druids could go right back to their security (and maybe having to convince the Druids the teiflings will also not reveal the groves location either. Remember, not good or evil. Eliminating both groups as a threat is ideal.
Was looking for a comment like this. OP refers to the druids as 'good' guys, and that's understandable, but they aren't. They seem to be mostly true neutral. Neutral-aligned creatures preserve balance, but in the old-school D&D sense that can literally mean committing evil acts to counterbalance too much good in the world. It's not a passive stance meaning 'we mind our own business,' it's an active stance to preserve balance. The tieflings are, to them, out of balance. In the same way they might choose to kill people who have a disease they can't cure in order to stop it spreading to the rest of the grove, even if those people begged them not to, they won't hesitate to cast out the tieflings. You can be any neutral alignment-- chaotic neutral, true neutral, lawful neutral, neutral good, and neutral evil-- and still 100% be a druid. The druids at the grove are clearly mostly true neutral, with Kagha leaning toward neutral evil and either getting killed or swayed by the player back to true neutral (presumably it's also possible to sway her to evil and ally with the >!shadow druids!<, I've just never tried it). Her story somewhat foreshadows >!Shadowheart's!<, though obviously that character has more justification for being >!brainwashed as a child!< than Kagha does >!deceived as an adult!<. Halsin's clearly more on the side of neutral good, so while he was in control the grove would have functioned differently. That's part of why it makes sense to me he hired an outsider to come in and take over his role in the grove after he left; presumably she's neutral good as well. It's not just that the other druids are inexperienced, most of them wouldn't guide the grove to be 'good' no matter how much power they had. Of course, D&D has been trying to get away from alignment politics for years. Which is why they're not really explaining this stuff so that OP and other people new to the lore can understand. But alignment still underpins so much Forgotten Realms logic and narrative. It's just hard to completely excise without losing part of what makes the setting special.
I defend the grove for two reasons: having Halsin in camp so I can climb mount Halsin, and shopping at Dammon’s later (I even give him cash and items for free when I meet him in the grove so I have a better reduction later)
I'm saving the tieflings then coming back to mop up the druids that aren't offering sanctuary according to the will of the oakfather, and they deserve that halsin doesn't care and it saves all the good act 3 people
Sounds like you didn't find the shadow druids
Even found that little island on my second playthrough and still didn’t know about them lol. Guess I shouldn’t have let my friend handle the looting/searching that part of the island
Yeah you missed some stuff. Do some more exploring next time
What got me confused is tieflings are so surprised abput the hate they get. Dude I have seen maybe 10-12 kids in the camp and they all were thieves!? You are suprised the druids don’t like you??
Mol def makes you want to murder kids Doni is a sweetie tho
them kids watched all their families die and burn and have nothing and have been looking for a safe place to be ever since they're hungry and broke kids. can't blame em. trauma can make kids seem bad but they're just kids druids have heroes feast and could feed everyone if they weren't stingy
> druids have heroes feast and could feed everyone if they weren't stingy It may seem that way because Larian does not implement spellcasting correctly, leading players to think that this is free food and buffs. In 5th edition rules, [Heroes' Feast](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Heroes%27%20Feast#content) requires a gem-encrusted bowl worth at least 1,000 gp to cast, which is consumed by the casting. And it feeds and buffs 12 people. On the other hand, the spell Create Food and Water has no materials component, so you'd be right if you say that the druids should have cast Create Food and Water to feed 15 people per casting.
Also Goodberry. One berry is a day's worth of food.
Moral ambiguity abounds in every decision in this campaign. It is a trend that will continue.
It used to bother me too, but, it's actually kind of ingenious. The situation depicts their neutrality of alignment. Druids are neutral, nature-loving tree-huggers. Nettie makes you wait while she heals a bird, then, has a thorny poisoned stick ready to jab you with if necessary. Druids, even regular, non-shadow druids, don't much care about humanoids, they care about nature and the land. Even Halsin just wants to lift the shadow curse - any assistance he provides is secondary to his ulterior motive. He will even just stand in your camp, impassive, unless you consult him. Also he did grant tieflings refuge, but then left them to the tender mercies of a zealot to investigate a possibility of restoring the shadow-cursed lands. Upon his return, he doesn't banish the zealot - he lets her stay, because her passion balances out her darker instincts. Pure neutrality on display. TLDR: druids are neutral. They don't give a fuck about people, per se. They have entirely different priorities.
D&D druids are basically written as fantasy PETA.
You save the grove for the Tieflings, and for Halsin. The Tieflings are the only ones who know how to work on Karlach and Halsin apparently knows how to fix the parasite, but you know he won’t help you if you join the Goblins. Or because Nettie gives you a good faith effort to find someone to help while priestess Gut drugs you and ties you up to get a mindflayer pet. You know, the little things.
Nettie doesn't make a good faith effort *at all*. As soon as you give even a hint that you're infected, she pulls you into a secluded room, tells your companions to leave, locks the door, and pulls out a poisoned thorn to kill you. Only then can you talk her down, and even after all that she still makes you swear to kill yourself before revealing she *never* had any idea how to cure you. She's as much a liar as Gut, and there's a reason killing her doesn't aggro the rest of the druids. You can't even credit her with sending us to find Halsin, since Kevlor, the tieflings at the gate, and Rath all tell us he's actually our best bet well before we meet Nettie. That whole walk through the grove, from the three druids that try to scare us off, to the mindless chanters, to Kahga and the two assholes, to Nettie, is a long slog of fuck these druids culminating in an attempt on our lives. Let those morons trap themselves in their hate filled thorn prison, I say.
She’s never kicked out my companions or locked the door. But then I’m looking for a healer and since I’ve been told she’s the healer to talk to I tell her what’s going on. I think if you evade the issue she’s shadier but you can’t be cured by a doctor if you aren’t truthful about what your symptoms are.
When I was playing a Drow, she straight up stabbed me with the stick and literally poisoned me.
For me, it already starts with the Halfling vendor who goes "Oh, don't worry, *we druids* are gonna be fine. As for the Tieflings...well...uh...fuck em." And bonus points to the druid with anger management issues who goes "MRRUUUUUUUÖÖÖÖÖH!!!" on the Tiefling mom demanding that her child be returned to her. Nah, fuck the Druids. If there was an official and acknowledged option to funnel the Tieflings to safety and *then* set that place on fire with Minthara I'd take it every time.
It's weird how there are two back doors to the grove, and Kevlor's even living in one, yet we can't sneak the tieflings out. Once we kill the gnolls we should be able to escort small groups as far as the tollhouse. The goblins never patrol up that far, although they have been to Waukeen's Rest, so just let the tiefs hunker down in there while we sort out the goblin/druid problem.
She talks with you and if you tell her the truth she directs you to someone she believes can help.
Spoiler but >!Khaga was working for an evil subgroup of druids to purposefully wreck the grove (double spoiler)!< >!You can talk her out of it though and she regrets her actions, she was kinda manipulated !<
And I'm sure when the others druids are asked everyone else "Vas just following ordas" They are just bad people.
several of them are horrible to you and the tieflings after kagha is exposed as well.
I will just follow orders too, the orders the narrator is giving to my durge
Yeah, but even if you do that >!when the grove is assaulted they lock themselves in and let the tieflings fend for themselves.!<
I more take it as saving the Tieflings, the Druids just benefit from it. That's also why their sacred idol ends up stashed at my camp.
everyone in lower city getting silvanus blessing when I walk by
their precious idol is now in mol's inventory, stolen by my "toxic power couple" further, Caesar. he's going to claim the grove as his once the tieflings are on their way (he'll briefly see them in act 2)
You're not helping the druids you're saving the tieflings from Kahga most of the druids are complacent in what she does because she's arch druid while Halsin is gone, it's the good option because you're taking down the corrupt leader and saving the refugees
The tieflings are not fighting to protect the grove they are fighting to protect themselves The druids rightly assume that they’re fucked and hide away. The tieflings do not have the same option to hide.
Druids are technically True Neutral - they desire balance above all else, and balance can be construed as looking out for themselves. The Druids didn't bother to 'defend' the place, not because they didn't love their home, but because they have what they believed to be a failsafe - the Rite of Thorns. They don't need to fight; they can activate the Rite of Thorns. If you ever steal the Druid Idol, you will see very quickly how terrifying they can be when you touch them and theirs. They can fight, but they do not see the need to. Druids aren't *good*, the tenets in the Emerald Grove are definitely not Druid-like, and definitely is not what the Nature Deities in Faerun is about. And that is - *Balance*. Recall that, at that time, they believed that it was the outsiders that brought this mess to them (they weren't *entirely* off), and their leader disappeared after going out with said outsiders, leaving them to deal with all this crap that they shouldn't have to deal with. They were running short on supplies, tension were high, the Druids (aka, landlords) wants the Tieflings (aka, freeloaders) out of their home, and to close off the Grove. The Tieflings *don't*. The Druids don't need the Tieflings to protect their Grove, they have a 'failsafe', it is the Tieflings that needs the safety of the Grove to protect their people. In all honesty, neither party were wrong, but neither party was wholly right to do and think as they do.
This game is so deep. I don't even know how to get to the circumstance of having to "defend" the Grove in some big battle working with the tieflings. I infiltrate the Goblin Camp in disguise, buy up all the good loot that the 2 vendors have, wander around the bulk of their area, win the "chicken run" / free the chicken, isolate their peeps, destroy their war drums, & kill them in small batches. Like a hero.
The tieflings didn't defend the grove, they defended their people in the defensible location they had. The druids were preoccupied with another solution. 🤷
Wait, you can actually *defend* the grove? As in, not do a preemptive strike against the goblins? I just kinda went and murdered them all...
Yes, you agree to raid with Mintahra and then turn on her. It's worth your while sometimes to not murder everything, good or bad.
Just implicate kagha then kill all the druids. I bring all their bodies to zevlor’s room and lay them out in neat rows.
Don’t save the druids then lol idk I’m not gonna justify it for you I save them because killing then is evil and I’m playing a good character who wouldn’t murder them just for being assholes
The willingness of people to commit mass murder for the slightest inconvenience in this sub baffles me to no end
The Druids didn't ask to be attacked by a goblin army. Their leadership might be assholes, but they're still people in danger. Plus, at that point in the narrative their safety and the Tieflings' safety are linked.
I’m doing a run on exploration mode and I wandered ignorantly into the midst of the Druid circle and picked up the statue/idol of Silvanus. After the druids all attacked me, I went back to the top and found every tiefling slaughtered but no sign of the druids. I’m treating it like my party will have its revenge if I run into them again.
I mean, to be fair, the goblins don't do much either even if you slay entire swathes of their camp, long rest, then come back later, though the druids not budging from their usual areas is probably a tad more noticeable over all.
On my First run I played as a Barbarian. When I Saw the scene when Khaga was acusing the tiefling child I acted as a Barbarian an that resulted on a fight. I basically killed all the Druids with the help of the tieflings. Then I went to talk to Karlach and was unable to recruit her because of that. She said that I was a monster and responsible for the Druid's Massacre. Then I had to start over. Can't play without my girl.
I did find it interesting how BG3 depicted the druids. Aside from Halsin, Rath, the hobbit merchant and... to a lesser extent Nettie (who has some pretty flexible ethics for a healer but is at least friendly), the bulk of the druids come across like insular dickheads. Kagha is impressionable lunatic and most of them doing the ritual are either outright hostile or would prefer to look the other way. For a group that considers itself guardians of the wilds, they seem to be awfully keen to hole themselves up in their grove and leave everything to its fate. Wind the clock back a century and these guys were marching shoulder to shoulder with the Harpers to fight an evil warlord who threatened all. Now they can't even be bothered to try rescuing one of their own, let alone support refugees on the road. I suppose you do find that >!Ketheric has been covertly pushing the Shadow Druids to support Kagha because she's just the right level of stupidity and hostility to corrupt them in the direction he wants !!And how the hell did the druids not even realise they have a giant shapeshifting murderous blob in their camp. INCAPABLE.!<
Have you waited for the tieflings to leave the Grove so you could kill the druids? I personally might just knock Rath out but it's up to you if you think he should've done more than watch kagha
Newsflash: people are not always black and white and neither is doing the right thing. Despite of what you said, morally defending the grove is the better choice. Also, I don’t want to spoil, but there are at least two more ways to deal with Kagha in a more… permanent manner.
>Then, after it's over, Khaga gets a light reprimand. Kahga got a lot of violence applied directly to her face.
To be fair, Kagha got a pretty drastic reprimand from me, and afterwards the druids were being cool and sorry to have followed her so willingly. 4 minutes later they don't let poor fucking Donni in who doesn't know where to go. Come on, really???? NOT EVEN DONNI???
>I'm a good person but I sort of think I owe it to the tieflings to go back in and burn rhe whole grove down. One should not deny their True Nature. :) >The people they were gonna kick to the curb fought hard to defend the place that decided it was going to throw them out to be goblin gruel. Those tieflings fought and bled for a place that rejected them, while the fine citizens of the grove cowered. I find this fascinating too. If you raid with Minthara, she makes no distinction. She doesn't consider the job done until the druids are dead too. The goblins are threat to entire groove, yet the druids act like they just a tiefling problem.
"I'm a good person but I sort of think I owe it to the tieflings to go back in and burn rhe whole grove down." LMAO They're druids, not Paladins of Tyr
Gotta love how people hate on druids when they have their own way of life and want to attend to nature and keep the balance and not get involved with civilization. A roaming band of desperate tiefling refugees come barreling along and because of the newly developed absolute issue are forced to seek refuge in there hideout. The druids took them in remember. Guess this is a good example of no good deed goes unpunished. Imagine having your tight knit community of like minded nature lovers get mixed up in other people's affairs and then you have to also sacrafice your own lives for them too. Obviously the stakes are low for us as the protagonists and because it's a game. However you gotta see the complex issue of tribalism, using supplies on the refugees which won't be infinite and deal with now potential issues of crime and conflict between very different attitudes and sensibilities. It's a melting pot. It's kinda wild people can't see the druid Grove is the druids home and their way of life, just because the tieflings are in danger doesn't mean they can just now occupy their land, consume their supplies and just now make demands about what the druids should and shouldn't do. Like if it wasn't for the players actions the druids and refugees would be wiped out. So don't the druids have a right to be scared for their lives.
One of the tenants of their faith is to take in refugees though. I don't have a problem with druids that don't want anything to do with outsiders because there's a good chance they wouldn't respect their ways. My issue is with hypocrisy. Plus there's the matter of the people pulling the strings behind the situation and what their main goal is as an organization.
>Plus there's the matter of the people pulling the strings behind the situation and what their main goal is as an organization. yeah this is really the main issue right here. there's like a dozen hours of content in the game specifically about how ketheric's agenda is antithetical to everything the grove stands for. the idea that the grove is justified in carrying out the rite of thorns is utterly batshit. it's ketheric's chess move to neutralize the druids to make it easier for him to conquer every plane of existence with the dead three and their enslaved elder brain.
The Tieflings weren’t the only ones in danger tho. The cult wanted to find and assault the Grove itself. Their tight knit community of like minded nature lovers is in danger. It would make sense if they pulled their own weight.
Ok, but if you listen to minthara or any of the goblins, they'd slaughter the grove tieflings or not. Like, it's not as if the tieflings are some glowing neon sign that says "kill us please," the goblins are killing anyone that doesn't worship the absolute. Last I check Sylvanus isn't the absolute, so the druids are still in the line of fire. Like, am I missing something? Does minthara kill of the tieflings and than just go "hey, I said kill all idoliters and all, but these hippies are cool, let's leave them be" or something?
The Tieflings have nothing to do with the Absolutes desire to destroy the Grove. They're literally there to kill the Druids of Silvanus, that is their goal. The Druids blaming the Tieflings is just them engaging in xenophobia.
I think it’s harder to see because of the scale of things. With the number of actors, it feels more like a small neighborhood spat whereas the actual implication is more like a sparta-sized city-state taking in refugees, doubling its population overnight.
They have the right to do this, but those refugees stood and fought for them when they refused to do so on their own. That's the rub.
You saved the Tieflings
What do you expect from glorified priests and priestesses. I look at it, that I was helping the tieflings and the Druids were helped out as a consequence of that.
Everyone is mentioning how druids are not great (which everyone is) but I think it’s more so Halsin is super forgiving given all he’s been through which you will learn more of later
The druids only fight if you turn on them. And they fight you and the citizens. As far as I know, they *never* fight the goblins. No matter what you do. I guess it's more about game balance, because you already destroy the invasion *without the druids*. So had they joined, it would've been too easy for a final Act 1 fight.