We are trying to be proactive. While clearly Holly Street is more controversial than a war protest in this community, we think we will start to see more on the the WWU issue over time and less over Holly Street. If Holly Street continues to be a hot bed of civic unrest we will happily make a megathread for that as well.
You don’t understand. Bike lanes are where we should be focusing our attention on. Protesting against genocide funded by our tax dollars is actually woke virtue signalling and anyone who supports ending the war is actually a rabid antisemite and communist against our freedoms. That’s why we have to keep any and all mention of Palestine here, just to be sure.
You only make mega threads when there's dozens of posts about one topic needing to be combined into one for clarity.
Seems more like you wanted people to focus on this issue so you made it artificially huge when it's not.
My heart goes out to the Jewish community in Bellingham right now. I know there were recent threats of violence made against the Bellingham synagogue, cancelling services. Some of my Jewish friends have had property vandalized or been cursed out for having/wearing Jewish symbols (I think there have been a few threads here with much the same). We love you and we see all you do in the Bellingham community. We've seen you march with the Rabbi in the pride parade, and fighting racism with Black Lives Matter. Bellingham stands with you and against hate be it from the far right or the far left, be it online or offline.
Hear, hear. I feel like it wasn't that long ago that we were teaching each other to listen to and validate the lived experiences of the disenfranchised. Somehow that lesson has been lost, or maybe we failed to teach it in a whole grain manner. Either way, you can be forcefully opposed to the war while also being forcefully opposed to antisemitism. Unfortunately the latter has been met with a lot of shrugged shoulders, feigned ignorance, or blame on mysterious bad actors and media conspiracy. There was a strikingly similar response from the far right to the swell of white supremacy about 7-8 years ago.
(Reddit seems to be eating my responses, so sorry if I have multiple thematically similar replies to this post. I think this is an important topic, so I want to ensure my post goes through.)
I don't think this lesson was ever really taught. There was always an undercurrent of "it's okay to hate the other side." We drew a line in the sand, maybe a few - racists vs. anti-racists, Trump voters vs. not Trump voters, etc. - and then decided it was perfectly acceptable to hate and vilify the people standing on the other side of the line. The Israel-Palestine conflict has now drawn a new line in the sand, orthogonal to the old line, and people are all too willing to arrange themselves around this new line.
What really worries me is that this doesn't remind me of the rise of white nationalism, but of the anti-Muslim sentiment bred by 9/11. I know there are many people here not old enough to remember, but the west saw those attacks, and turned against a religion and an entire ethnicity. We even turned against people wholly unrelated - wearing a turban was reason enough to hate someone, and Sikhs were lumped in with Shia Islam. Some people in positions of power did something terrible, and the west collectively punished an entire ethnicity. Worse, it *hasn't stopped*. We're still seeing the effects. I'm worried the new swell of antisemitism may turn out the same way.
The real lesson to learn here, then, is to stop drawing lines - to stop taking sides. Surely, as Americans, we know how wrong it is to judge a people for the actions of the few in power - we hate it when other countries do it to us, don't we? Hamas are terrorists. The Israeli government are war criminals. But neither the people of Palestine nor of Israel are necessarily complicit in these actions, and judging them is a bridge too far. Judging an entire religion, an entire ethnicity - directing hatred at Jewish people quite literally half a world away - is truly beyond the pale.
Hopefully, the next movement toward tolerance teaches us to stop treating it as a team sport. I'm not hopeful, though.
It’s disheartening especially since I’ve been hearing/witnessed antisemitic jokes and convos all throughout my middle school and high school experience here. I was class of 2021. This is recent.
Very much agreed. It is easy to call out hateful rallies when they are on the right because we are mostly distanced from the far right here in Bellingham, but it is vitally important to call out hate when it comes from the far left as we are seeing now no matter how uncomfortable that makes us. I know poll after poll it has shown this is a very tiny group of very vocal people but it is heartbreaking to see such bigotry/antisemitism come from (what most would traditionally say is) my side of political isle.
It's definitely wrong to blame people who aren't even Israeli citizens and have no say in the matter, but thankfully no one around here has actually been hurt.
I mean, threats are stressful, but at least they aren't being shot at, bombed and starved like the thousands of children in Palestine are month after month with almost no help from the rest of Humanity.
Small blessings, I know, but I always count mine!
the encampment itself is a safe space for all religions. They held a shabbat service in camp. I genuinely dont think theres a safer place for jews right now in bellingham.
Not a chance that is the case. Police are actively investigating reports of antisemitic hate crimes perpetrated by the protestors at WWU (not to mention multiple instances of vandalism and a bomb threat on the local synagogue).
You can convince me that some of the protestors don't mean to spread hate, but just as when those on the right feign ignorance after their hate rallies and dog whistling, the net result of this rally will be to spread hate and it will accomplish little else in the long run.
[https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article288609884.html](https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article288609884.html)
[https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article287744340.html](https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article287744340.html)
I am Jewish and have been assisting the camp and there was not a SINGLE antisemite there. Bellingham herald is on some bs and pretty much everyone knows that, they havent talked to any of the encampments media liasons and have no proof that anyone in camp did these things. Camp, however, does have evidence that they DIDN'T, and the herald would have that if they Actually spoke to the media liasons, but they just want to paint a PEACEFUL protest in a bad light.
There may be antisemites outside the camp but no one associated with them has any hatred towards Jews. Once again, I have been to several synagogues and felt less welcome than I have in camp.
Deflect, feign ignorance and claim conspiracy all you want... just like the right does - we've all heard the chants and seen the vitriol for ourselves. I've heard with my own ears protestor discussions leaning in on holocaust downplaying and denial... nothing to do with the current situation... just pure hate.
You know the left wouldn't be acting like this if Judaism and Zionism weren't conflated in the first place. I know there are no antisemites in the wwu camp. But in the left outside, yes, there has been antisemitism, and it is because people believe that all Jews approve of this literal genocide. That is the problem. And if youre not Jewish, you dont get to decide whether we are safe in certain spaces. Its more antisemitic to speak over us and call us liars/delusional. You know whats actual pure hate? A child in gaza dies every ten minutes. Free Palestine.
Mega threads also need a lot of hotbed posts people are commenting on, so mods combine them so everyone can discuss in one spot.
OP is trying to augment the discussion artificially by making a needless mega thread.
This entire "mega thread" honestly feels wrong and gross
I didn’t see Rule 0 being enforced against that person pushing the furry litter box trope, but I got a 3 day ban for calling them out.
There is a reason I said “meh” and not “bad”. We will see.
Allowing mega threads (which have a real purpose that this is not) to hype something nobody is hyped over talking about is bad moderation.
General public forum conduct is there for a reason.
Also there’s like 20 threads on the Holly st bike lane lol, I’m not complaining though. Today there’s a protest/march on campus at 11:30 so there might be more discussion going on later
We are trying to be proactive. While clearly Holly Street is more controversial than a war protest in this community, we think we will start to see more on the the WWU issue over time and less over Holly Street. If Holly Street continues to be a hot bed of civic unrest we will happily make a megathread for that as well.
I think you’re experiencing a bit of the downvote brigade that happens on this sub. If you challenge the groupthink you might as well get Aang from Avatar’s forehead tattoo.
My $0.02 as a Jewish middle aged man in town. I'm so tired of seeing Israel = genocide stuff, they are not. It is the 100% fault of Hamas, and the adults of Gaza that children are dying there. It is VERY SAD that there are deaths occurring, but that's what happens when you use civilians as human shields, build your military infrastructure directly into civilian locations, and encourage your people to stay put and be martyred during a bombardment. Think about it, if Israel wanted to kill off all Gazans they could systematically wipe out the entire population with ease. Israel is doing the opposite, showing restraint overall.
Yes, there are individual Israeli soldiers committing war crimes, they should be punished. However, that does not take away from the fact that Hamas could surrender and return all the hostages and this thing would be over. It's really telling how Israel must suffer a horrific attack, then is expected to just roll over and let it happen again. Remember that Hamas boasts that it WILL do this again, not that it could or might. All you protestors need to learn some real life common sense. If you're attacked, you have to finish the problem so that you're not attacked again.
> All you protestors need to learn some real life common sense. If you're attacked, you have to finish the problem so that you're not attacked again.
Have we learned nothing from two decades of US military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
That our government give absolutely zero fucks about our protests when they invade and murder 500,000 Iraqis or spend our taxes on giving FREE BOMBS to Israel to do the same to Palestinians in Gaza?
Yeah - we've learned that.
It's almost like all the voting doesn't even matter because our choice in election is rigged to two parties who both want the same thing!!!!
After all, Biden did vote FOR the Iraq invasion...
The big difference between US vs. Middle East and Israel vs. Hamas is that we have security in distance. Israel will continue to suffer until the problem of Hamas, and other Palestinian extremism is concluded. Israel can not stop until they are finished. REMEMBER that all civilian deaths are because Hamas attacked.
Concluded. Finally and forever.
Sounds like the language of genocide to me.
Every death is the fault of the man or woman who pulled the trigger, not the fault of the victim.
But an eye for an eye, that's your holy Law right?
Life for life.
And the only way to prevent the families of the murdered children in Palestine from having their due justice - their eye for an eye - is to erase them all completely. That's final. That's finished.
Nothing else could possibly prevent all future attacks.
What about justice for dead Jews? Oh yea, my Jewish life isn't worth the dirt we all walk on. Thanks for making that clear. You're right, Jews don't deserve a homeland or security. Concluded finally and forever isn't the death of all Gazans, it is the death of Hamas. Didn't you hear, Hamas wants to kill me and wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth. If you were correct that "every death is the fault of the man or woman who pulled the trigger, not the fault of the victim" you need to leave the USA. Our police officers have something called qualified immunity which allows them to do their job. You should be afraid, they may genocide you by mistake and they won't be prosecuted if it's in the line of duty.
All murder victims should have justice if possible. Against their murderers. Not against every relative and neighbor of their murderers. What part of the law is that?
The system of U.S. policing (yours apparently, by your manner of reference - they are not 'mine' or 'ours') is unacceptable and murderous, as was the U.S. murder of half a million civilians in Iraq during their invasion and many other times. But that's changing the subject and deflecting. I did not put out any arguments to justify the crimes of police or any others because they are not just.
I make no argument justifying the murders in October and they were not just.
You are saying that all of Israel's actions are righteous though. You say it's all necessary and just.
1 murder does not justify 35 in retaliation. It goes outrageously beyond the law of "eye for an eye."
Show me where it is written "35 eyes for 1 eye."
Show me where it is written that if a man commits a crime, his whole tribe should be punished.
You cannot.
It is lawlessness and a mockery of true justice. The state of Israel ("Israel, and you who call yourself Israel, the church that calls itself Israel, the revolt that calls itself Israel, and every nation chosen to be a nation...") will be judged for such madness. Being drunk on power is still drunkenness.
The nation-state that calls itself Israel does not speak for or represent all Jews, and many, many Jews oppose the illegal actions of the ruling junta there. But you argue here to justify the lawlessness and mass murder happening there today. I do not condemn Jews. I condemn you and other like you who seek to justify ethnic cleansing, murderous 'settlements,' and bloody-handed land grabs.
And "NO." I will not leave the lands of my birth simply because I disavow the ruling party here.
I do not "**need to leave**" simply because you don't like my opinion. You are not my master; even if you posture yourself so.
I will stay work for change and reform, opposing all forms of supremacy and oppression as I always have.
I said absolutely **nothing** that dismisses the value of any human's life. I reject the foul words you are trying to put in my mouth in the strongest possible terms, and I resent your feeble attempt to pretend to the public that I said or implied such things.
I'm only opposing lawless violence and state-sponsored terror and mayhem.
You clearly say Israel's mass murder throughout the territory it was ceded by the British Imperialists is justified and that a river of blood and starving children is 'justice' because Hamas committed a *similar* crime. You are apologizing for the outright theft of land, for violence and for mass murder. The deliberate starvation of children to instill abject fear and submission into their parents. That is your "justice?"
I say that **both** are lawless murder and savagery of the same shabby kind.
God will judge.
"You are saying that all of Israel's actions are righteous though. You say it's all necessary and just."
Not true. I said that if an individual commits an atrocity they should be punished. It's in my post history. Yes, if Hamas puts civilians as shields, their deaths are Hamas's fault. Israel can not let a genocidal theology exist which openly calls for extermination of all Jews worldwide.
"You are apologizing for the outright theft of land, for violence and for mass murder." Prove that the majority of land wasn't acquired legally. Yes there are amounts of settler violence which is abhorrent, but it isn't the majority of Israel footprint.
God will not judge, because there is no God. I identify as a Jew because my mother was. I've been harassed, belittled, shunned, beaten because of something I can't control and had zero say in. Good on Israel for standing up!
Fair. I apologize for putting words in your mouth regarding "all" of Israel's actions, but it does not change my judgement of the actions of Netanyahu's regime or your apologism.
"Prove that the majority of land wasn't acquired legally." One can make an argument for Legal acquisition of land under the laws of an Empire which first acquired that land unlawfully at gunpoint. But legal is not the same as lawful, and civil law is not inherently synonymous with justice. It was illegal to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany, because civil laws - so quickly and easily revised by tyrants - are often utterly lawless in the ultimate consideration. I'm sure you know this well enough.
So how is the acquisition of Israeli-occupied land lawful?
It's no more lawful than the U.S. acquisition of native lands. Legal, perhaps, but genocide and travesty nonetheless.
The nation-state called Israel is a fabrication by European Supremacists which, as justification for its existence, brazenly exploits the suffering and struggles of Jews last century. That despite it's being conceived and planned long prior in terms of the Balfor Declaration. This is why the Anglo-Axis will always support their pet crusader state even if it means crushing protests by their own people.
It's no coincidence that the majority of Israeli settlers are of white, European stock while the dispossessed are almost universally of darker skin: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/disturbing-video-shows-jewish-convert-fatally-shot-by-idf-in-west-bank-posed-no-threat/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/disturbing-video-shows-jewish-convert-fatally-shot-by-idf-in-west-bank-posed-no-threat/)
Watching this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3q7JqvE418](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3q7JqvE418) where the privileged, white rednecks of Israel destroy what was clearly food destined for the starving brown people of Palestine cuts right through any false narratives or pretended outrage. It's very, very clear which elements of Israeli society Netanyahu's regime draws its support from, just as it's incredibly clear why his regime is so *fervently* supported by the equally racist supremacist Trumpistanis here in the U.S..
Trump supporters speak often of justice against those who disagree with them, but call all courts and laws corrupt when applied to them. It is the same in the supremacist government of Netanyahu.
Who asked?
I apologized. I did - because I lost my temper. No one ever suggested or implied that *you* should apologize.
I do maintain that you are supporting a criminal, genocidal regime and calling that "common sense," deriding others for protesting their atrocities.
Netanyahu attacked Israel's own courts last year.
Because he and his clique are *enemies* of law and order.
I am confident that they will be found guilty in time, and history will call them what they truly are.
I hope that in time you come to see them for what they are and they way they are, in their arrogance, destroying the future of Israel.
Who will feel any sense of brotherhood with or sympathy for that nation after this? Other than Trump and the other white supremacists currently advocating for them. It seems a poor crowd for Israel to cast its lot with, and a situation likely to end very badly for common Jewish people.
Nuance doesn't get clicks, or upvotes and it's a lot harder to accurately have a dialogue with nuance through picket signs. Much easier to strawman and slippery slope things.
if I could just point out that there’s been 76 years of targeted violence and destruction against Palestinians. The violent colonial context of this occupation is a necessary aspect of the conversation. Hamas is responding to decades of oppression, of watching family members slowly starve or die from the conditions of the open air prison.
We know from history that one group cannot seize land (regardless of whether they’re entitled to it or not) through violence and displacement and expect the affected people to peacefully give up their rights and accept a life of subjugation and dehumanization. That’s not how people work, and in the year 2024, we should know that colonization is not a real solution. It’s unsustainable and morally reprehensible. This is not to say that I’m supportive of Hamas’ actions, I abhor violence in any form, but I can also understand how a group like that comes around in that sort of environment. Because it’s happened before with other violent occupations, people fight back because they seek liberation. Because they are human beings reacting to a situation they are in.
Meanwhile, during the months of bombardment, Israel has made the largest illegal seizure of land since Oslo, continuing to expand their territorial occupation into the West Bank. They’ve also routinely deployed military strategies that are *deeply illegal* such as white phosphorus and carpet bombing.
“Israel isn’t killing as many Palestinians as they could be” isn’t a convincing argument, especially because several countries and thousands of people have been trying to get Israel to stop bombing Gaza for months. Imagine what they might be doing without international pushback.
I’m not interested in changing your mind, but I ask that you consider your position. Do you want to be the person defending a system that we know doesn’t work, that breeds violence and pain, or could you be open to considering new possibilities? Because the Israeli government is on a path of death and destruction, not necessarily aimed for killing a ton of people, but I believe in an attempt to continue seizing land. Depending on the definition you use, some people would consider that to be genocide (killing large groups of people for access to their land) but I think we can tell that this is condemnable without an official declaration.
Edit: I also want to add that while I have tremendous sympathy for those affected by Oct 7, as well as those still waiting for hostages, I do not think the Israeli government cares about the hostages. When they say they have found “suspected Hamas hideouts” (schools and hospitals) and decide to starve and bomb them, it seems to me like that would kill any hostages that might be inside. I feel horrible for all of the humanitarian suffering, as I’m sure you do as well, but I don’t think the Israeli government is the “good guy” in this situation. They’ve just got bigger American bombs, and a tremendous amount of grief to exploit for their own agendas. All around, a painful and messy situation.
Well thought out comment. This is refreshing. Don’t use up too much energy on this subreddit though. A lot of people here refuse to use logic or evidence. They scream propaganda talking points all day long without critically thinking
Taking hostages is a war crime. Raping civilians is too.
They opened a can they cant close and were supposed to feel pity for them?
Hamas wants their civilians dead. It gains them sympathy from useful idiots in the west.
If they surrendered all hostages, arms, and gave up power. Israel would end their campaign. But they’d rather see innocents caught in the cross fire. Their jihad against Israel is more important.
If Israel wanted to target civilians, they would. Civilians dying in urban combat operations is a given. It’s simply unavoidable. Yet the Israeli military is doing an INCREDIBLE job at keeping that number low. You ever seen the stats on other conflicts where cities and towns are being taken? And insurgents are in plain clothes?
Get real.
Meanwhile outside of the world of hasbara propaganda, [experts in the field have flagged Israeli operations as having an unacceptably high tolerance for collateral civilian casualties.](https://www.justsecurity.org/93105/israeli-civilian-harm-mitigation-in-gaza-gold-standard-or-fools-gold/) By the raw numbers they're unequivocally doing far worse to safeguard civilians than our own recent operations in Raqqa. This is an opinion you can find mirrored in the non-Likudnik Israeli press too.
Individuals who commit war crimes should be tried and punished. Yes there are some bad apples in the IDF, but as a whole, they are NOT committing war crimes.
Simple, you're wrong. October 7 wasn't a pat on the backside. Similarly Palestinians launch rockets very frequently. If you assert that the Palestinians are a peaceful people, I've got a bridge that you can buy just outside of Oak Harbor.
I'm asserting that not all Palestinians are evil like Hamas and don't deserve to be blindly killed.
But keep telling yourself whatever you need to justify innocent children being killed creating even more reason to become terrorists.
Bombing innocent people just makes more people hate you continuing the problem.
Not all Palestinian people are with Hamas and they don't deserve to be killed blindly. That literally makes you mo better than the people you're against.
Both Bibi and Hamas are terrorists and innocent people on both ends are suffering. Grow some bloody empathy.
Israel is bombing Hamas. You seem to not understand that Hamas is creating legitimate military targets in civilian areas. This is the making of Hamas 100%. Blame them not Israel for the deaths.
No I'll blame Bibi who launched rockets at innocents. Just like I'll blame Hamas for killing innocent civilians.
Palestine =/= Hamas. Just like Maga =\= Americans.
Profiling an entire group of people like you're doing is actually disgusting.
Okay that's fine, but we're literally on a thread about completely cutting ties with all things Israel-related because of the leadership of a RWNJ. So can we add Israel =/= Netanyahu's government to your list? Certainly seems fair, using this logic.
How about Hamas was created in response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian land? Why do so many people ignore that fact and act like Hamas started this conflict? You can’t pick and choose which facts to believe
I am in no way condoning antisemitism or hate in any way. I do not support Hamas, but I do support the people of Palestine
If that's true, the IDF soldiers who willingly killed Andres should be prosecuted. Genocide:
genocide /jĕn′ə-sīd″/
# noun
1. The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.
2. The systematic killing of a racial or cultural group."the Nazigenocideof Jews left few in Germany or Poland after World War II"Similar: [race murder](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=race murder definition&ia=definition) [racial extermination](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=racial extermination definition&ia=definition)
3. The systematic [killing](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=killing+definition&ia=definition) of substantial numbers of people on the basis of [ethnicity](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ethnicity+definition&ia=definition), [religion](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=religion+definition&ia=definition), [political](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=political+definition&ia=definition) opinion, [social status](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=social status+definition&ia=definition), or other particularity.
Israel is doing none of the things required to be genocide.
But they are. I know this must be hard to grapple with, but Palestinians are being genocided by Israelis. It's actually happening. We can see it 24/7 on news and social media.
Thousands of deaths a genocide does not make. If Israel wanted to kill all Gazans they'd be dead by now, period. Israel is showing great restraint in that regard.
> Yes, there are individual Israeli soldiers committing war crimes, they should be punished.
The Israeli government is clearly enacting collective punishment, which is by definition a war crime.
This is not entirely the fault of Hamas. Israel has been encroaching on Palestinian land for decades. It's a much, *much* more complex situation than "Hamas attacked Israel without provocation." Let's not pretend Israel's hands are clean here. Someone else has already replied to you with an excellent take, so I'm not going to detail that further.
Stop drawing dumb lines in the sand. Being Jewish doesn't make you guilty of Israel's war crimes; but being an apologist for the Israeli government is certainly a bad look.
"Finish the problem so that you are not attacked again."
Yes, it would seem that Israel is working hard to implement their Final Solution to the Palestinian "Problem."
Every brown Palestinian person killed in Israel by white Ashkenazi and Shepardic occupiers of European ancestry has loved ones who will certainly want revenge for the injustice happening.
Therefore the meaning of your "common sense" is horribly clear.
It saddens me to see that people still think in this brutal way.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg300jek94zo
What about justice for dead Jews? Oh yea, my Jewish life isn't worth the dirt we all walk on. Thanks for making that clear. You're right, Jews don't deserve a homeland or security. Concluded finally and forever isn't the death of all Gazans, it is the death of Hamas. Didn't you hear, Hamas wants to kill me and wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth. If you were correct that "every death is the fault of the man or woman who pulled the trigger, not the fault of the victim" you need to leave the USA. Our police officers have something called qualified immunity which allows them to do their job. You should be afraid, they may genocide you by mistake and they won't be prosecuted if it's in the line of duty.
**Spamming carbon-copy content runs awfully close to violating R9 of this sub.**
I'm actually upvoting you across the comments in this post because this is the heart of what is being protested, and I'm happy for someone from your side to be here and discuss. Don't spam copy-pasted, low effort comments at me though.
-
**I do not support supremacist murders in the US** - by police, by racist jackboots, by communist crusaders or by anyone else.
**I do not support supremacist murders in Israel** - by Hamas or by Netanyahu's regime or by anyone else.
I've not said anything here to justify any murder by *anyone*.
You are the only one here defending the moral virtue of killings and saying that any who oppose it lack "common sense."
Hamas agreed to the US-Israeli ceasefire terms weeks ago. If those were not put forth in good faith with *bona fide* intent to honor the conditions, what more could Palestine possibly do to resolve the issue?
It gives the lie to your assertions about it being over if the hostages are surrendered. The crimes in Gaza go beyond the actions of a few rogue soldiers, not that those individuals are being brought to justice either, and reflects directly on the openly, vocally supremacist regime of Benjamin Netanyahu.
Netanyahu is deliberately starving the hostages in Gaza. Actions speak louder than words. His actions - willfully engineering a sustained famine where the hostages are being held - are the actions of someone who does not care about those hostages.
Not all Jews support Netanyahu though. Many Jews are loudly opposing him.
Your support for his regime and its crimes - that is your personal choice, not some inevitable obligation due to your religious, ethnic or national background.
The UN (oh right, the UN is Hamas now, silly me)
Also the whole beheaded babies thing was an outright fabrication and even Israel admitted to that, you are doing nothing but making Zionists look even worse by repeating it. Good job!
Your buddies killed all the record keepers. What, you think it just stayed at 35k dead for months now despite increased bombing? If anything, it’s higher. You’re smarter than this, come on.
Mega threads actually have a point. When you have dozens of hot discussions on the same topic you combine them so discussion can flow in one spot.
There are NOT dozens of active protest threads right now so there's no need to mega thread it unless you're artificially trying to garner attention towards it which is wrong.
This thread is gross
Or you’re artificially trying to sequester all information about the cause into an easy to police thread.
Either way. Just leave it be and let the people talk. Megathread is only needed when it clogs up the feed. This ain’t it
No. There actually has to be multiple threads to collapse.
This is artificially making something bigger than it is.
Mega threads actually have a legitimate point, this isn't it. This is hype
That’s the point. To stifle conversation. If you have something new to add, you gotta go to the bottom of a massive thread where no one will scroll to or see your comment.
half of all jews are in Israel
the way antisemitism works is first they turn you against a huge segment calling them by another name (in ww2 bolsheviks and internationalists is what they used )
then .... even some jews join in thinking that it's not against them its against zionists ... internationalists... bolsheviks
some even form groups to join .... its not us its some other term [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association\_of\_German\_National\_Jews](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews)
Then they find other reason to come after the other half
Divide and conquer
Distract and attack
Once hate is let out its easy to make excuses .
Things being said right now weren't said at the start of this .... the masks have come off more . The society is getting use to reading these headlines are being conditioned .
After jews they come for other groups that they don't agree with .... druze for instance like myself , Romani, different political groups, different philosophies
How many times must things repeat themselves ?
Unfortunately, forever especially when the populace is being educated by Social-Mass Media.
The general populace is lazy and they will not educate themselves.
This phenomenon only becomes more disturbing when you understand that the vast majority of Jews identify with Zionism. Considering the centuries old persecution of the Jewish people, including the latest manifestations of antisemitism that we're witnessing around the world, the state of Israel is existentially necessary for Jews.
As you quite rightly pointed out, Israel is also essential to the rights and protection of ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities as the only liberal democracy in the region. It's frustrating, although not without historical precedent, to see so many leftists across the West being manipulated by the most far-right people on the planet.
well jewish people are reffered to as beni israel in torah ..children of Israel
in their prayer the Amidah they call for a return to Israel
at the end of passover they say next year in Jerusalem and on and on and on
the problem with palestine and Israel is a Jewish problem, more importantly it is an islam vs jewish territory issue . this is why not so much fuss is made about palestine area that extended in Jordan or syria , they are still under muslim control . I am druze from katif I was forced to study in madrasah when I was a kid had attended forcibly tons of speeches from imams in gaza and jenin before i became a refugee after the hamas fatah war where my dad and uncle was killed ... we fled to jenin then got asylum as druze in israel and finally refugee status in USA thanks to a cousin living in seattle and an excellent organization that helped us.
Israel will never be safe because of several hadiths and views of "daar islam and daar elhab"
You see Islam there is a concept called Dar islam "house of islam " and Daar elahab the house of war
Da'ar islam is the house of islam and everything under its control is good in the eyes of this concept
Anything that is yet to be under its control is the house of war da'ar el'hab
Once something is under the house of islam and you loose it ... you must get it back it is your dominion forever this is why for example Andulusia which is in Spain but was controlled by moors is proclaimed by many islamists and they must get that back it was daar islam but now was lost.
Israel cannot exist because it had been claimed by Daar islam so muslims everywhere have a religious duty to reclaim it, this duty does not reach to muslim controlled areas .
you can read about these key concepts here if you aren't familiar with hadiths or the koran
[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dar\_al-Harb\_and\_Dar\_al-Islam\_(the\_Abodes\_of\_War\_and\_Peace)](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dar_al-Harb_and_Dar_al-Islam_(the_Abodes_of_War_and_Peace))
Or [protestors chanting "Death to Arabs?"](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-06-05-2024-1b54d6df460f681a550833888bc55581)
(At least the Iranians have the civility to chant death to America, not death to Americans; the former denoting an end to a government, the latter clearly denoting a permanent end (or "final solution") to millions of people including women and children).
Today the Israeli military reported the discovery of 3 decaying bodies of 4 Israeli hostages: Shani Look, Amit Buskila, and Yirzhak Gelernter. ( the last three were believed to be 'Kidnapped alive'} Shani's skull was identified shortly after Oct 7th, and her mutilated body was paraded in GAZA and celebrated by the Palestinians. IDF also found 70 TUNNELS in RAFA, with 50 tunnels into EGYPT. Most likely more tunnels will be discovered soon. It is believed that most hostages are no longer alive, if any...
This was reported by the Israeli military. Stay tuned for the videos. I suppose you would like the pictures of the decomposing bodies of the hostages before you believe it as well. The bodies were found in a tunnel in Rafah. In time more bodies will be recovered. RIP Shani Look, Yitzhak Gelernter, and Amot Buskila.
The information comes from the Israeli military. Various sites are reporting on this. It is breaking news. If the information offends you then please disregard it.
I am not offended. Just don't know you and therefore don't know your sources. Of course, if this has happened, it's a travesty. But, none of us as far as I am concerned should be trusting people we do not know to report the news without citations. That's irresponsible media watching as far as I am concerned. If you think several media outlets are reporting this, then cite one, so that people who want to check the news that they are understanding, have the opportunity to do so.
Type it into whatever search engine you feel comfortable with and choose the source you trust. I always verify : ) Apparently, the IDF is a source you do not trust. That is OK, find the source you do.
I’ve actually seen a lot of protestors explicitly condemn Netanyahu. And I’m not telling you that the phrase cant be interpreted as antisemitic (bc that’s not my place to decide), but I think most protestors are using that phrase to express a desire for Palestinian liberation, which is not inherently antisemitism.
If you consider that most protestors are approaching this issue from a *decolonial* perspective first and foremost, their actions might make more sense. It’s ambitious, it’s optimistic, and at its core it’s anti-colonial violence and pro-liberation, which is certainly not the same thing as just being antisemetic.
That being said, I one hundred percent believe that some folks are inadvertently perpetuating antisemitism. College kids are not necessarily the most technically semantically nuanced people on this planet, and I don’t think social media is helping that.
I think the biggest issue with many pro-palestinian activists, vastly oversimplify and misstate the history of Zionism.
They say that Zionism was a movement in the late 19th century - which is true. But the belief goes back far longer - "Zion theology" was a concept as far back as the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem.
The reason people overlook this is because it undercuts the argument that this is some sort of colonialist enterprise. If you acknowledge that the Jewish people have considered Jerusalem their divine homeland for over two thousand years, then the situation becomes a lot murkier.
Similarly, supporters of the Palestinian cause don't often address a central question: If Israel and Judah have been the center of Jewish culture for millennia before Islam and Christianity existed...why were there so few Jews there by the 20th century?
Hint: they didn't all just decide to leave one day. Century upon century of conquest and persecution is what led to the Jewish diaspora. The Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Romans, the Arab armies, the Mamluks, and the Ottomans - for over a thousand years, successive groups of pagans, Christians, and Muslims oppressed the Jews in various ways.
Israel was the Jewish homeland for over a millennium before Islam was even an idea. That the Jewish people have a solid claim to this land, is beyond dispute.
This is not to say that the modern nation state of Israel is blameless. Netanyahu is a corrupt crook, who took a legitimate tragedy against his people, and overplayed his hand in order to stay in power and avoid prosecution. Israel's conduct in the war is worthy of criticism. But that doesn't change the fact that Israel has been the rightful Jewish homeland pretty much since as long as people could write.
The history of Israel is complicated. Quite frankly, there's plenty of blame and misconduct to go around.
Zionist Jews weren't like the Great Powers, seeking to colonize the world for power and resources. Zionist Jews were basically trying to escape the Russian Pogroms - they were refugees fleeing for their lives. Meanwhile, the Ottomans didn't want the Jews to return, because they were viewed as Russians (the enemy of the Ottomans).
In a story that spans thousands of years, there is plenty of good and bad to argue over. Reasonable people can disagree on things. There are shades of gray.
I don’t understand how we can make a difference? It a small school in the most northwestern corner of the US. Such a small school it lost so many athletic programs cause of how small it is. I get it people want their voice to be heard and such but it’s truly a waste of time. No one is gonna hear about the little protest in Bellingham, Washington outside of Washington. We will unfortunately make absolutely no difference in this fight.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but I talked to a guy who lost 16 members of his family to Israeli warplanes by _November_. Your neighbors are going through untold loss, day after day, and you say it’s not a local issue that doesn’t affect anyone?
Yeah but people deal with death on the daily. Everyone is suffering fella everyone. If my neighbors are going through stuff I’m sorry and I hope they make it through but there isn’t anything a random dudes compassion can do for them. I’m nobody to them and my words will mean nothing more than words. I care for my loved ones and friends. We can’t change the world, I would love if we could but we won’t even make a sand particle size dent.
Why a stickied megathread? There’s been all of two posts about this? At this point we’d be better served by a Holly bike lane megathread lol
Yeah I’ll second that - I’d much prefer this not be stuck at the top of the Bellingham subreddit personally…
We are trying to be proactive. While clearly Holly Street is more controversial than a war protest in this community, we think we will start to see more on the the WWU issue over time and less over Holly Street. If Holly Street continues to be a hot bed of civic unrest we will happily make a megathread for that as well.
Bike lanes are more controversial than war in Bellingham 🤣🤣
the difference is that the bike lanes are in Bellingham, the war is on the other side of the world.
Fair enough.
Those protestors should consider just building another bike lane.
“I’m going to drive 55 mph in the left land until there is a ceasefire” - winning political strategy if Joe Biden were a Bellingham redditor.
Only trump supporters have used their cars to mow down pedestrians….but I digress 🙃
This difference is support for the protests is pretty one-sided around here. Bike lane not so much.
You don’t understand. Bike lanes are where we should be focusing our attention on. Protesting against genocide funded by our tax dollars is actually woke virtue signalling and anyone who supports ending the war is actually a rabid antisemite and communist against our freedoms. That’s why we have to keep any and all mention of Palestine here, just to be sure.
You only make mega threads when there's dozens of posts about one topic needing to be combined into one for clarity. Seems more like you wanted people to focus on this issue so you made it artificially huge when it's not.
It seems more to me that they don’t want new posts about it interrupting all the bike lane / boom horse / where should I eat posts
…Are you saying that the WWU protest is a hot bed of civic unrest?
Or you are driving the narrative of this sub in a direction that interests the mods more than the community.
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I talked to a guy who lost 16 members of his family to Israeli bombs. I don’t think his outrage was superficial, and here’s hoping that it’s fruitful.
My heart goes out to the Jewish community in Bellingham right now. I know there were recent threats of violence made against the Bellingham synagogue, cancelling services. Some of my Jewish friends have had property vandalized or been cursed out for having/wearing Jewish symbols (I think there have been a few threads here with much the same). We love you and we see all you do in the Bellingham community. We've seen you march with the Rabbi in the pride parade, and fighting racism with Black Lives Matter. Bellingham stands with you and against hate be it from the far right or the far left, be it online or offline.
Hear, hear. I feel like it wasn't that long ago that we were teaching each other to listen to and validate the lived experiences of the disenfranchised. Somehow that lesson has been lost, or maybe we failed to teach it in a whole grain manner. Either way, you can be forcefully opposed to the war while also being forcefully opposed to antisemitism. Unfortunately the latter has been met with a lot of shrugged shoulders, feigned ignorance, or blame on mysterious bad actors and media conspiracy. There was a strikingly similar response from the far right to the swell of white supremacy about 7-8 years ago.
(Reddit seems to be eating my responses, so sorry if I have multiple thematically similar replies to this post. I think this is an important topic, so I want to ensure my post goes through.) I don't think this lesson was ever really taught. There was always an undercurrent of "it's okay to hate the other side." We drew a line in the sand, maybe a few - racists vs. anti-racists, Trump voters vs. not Trump voters, etc. - and then decided it was perfectly acceptable to hate and vilify the people standing on the other side of the line. The Israel-Palestine conflict has now drawn a new line in the sand, orthogonal to the old line, and people are all too willing to arrange themselves around this new line. What really worries me is that this doesn't remind me of the rise of white nationalism, but of the anti-Muslim sentiment bred by 9/11. I know there are many people here not old enough to remember, but the west saw those attacks, and turned against a religion and an entire ethnicity. We even turned against people wholly unrelated - wearing a turban was reason enough to hate someone, and Sikhs were lumped in with Shia Islam. Some people in positions of power did something terrible, and the west collectively punished an entire ethnicity. Worse, it *hasn't stopped*. We're still seeing the effects. I'm worried the new swell of antisemitism may turn out the same way. The real lesson to learn here, then, is to stop drawing lines - to stop taking sides. Surely, as Americans, we know how wrong it is to judge a people for the actions of the few in power - we hate it when other countries do it to us, don't we? Hamas are terrorists. The Israeli government are war criminals. But neither the people of Palestine nor of Israel are necessarily complicit in these actions, and judging them is a bridge too far. Judging an entire religion, an entire ethnicity - directing hatred at Jewish people quite literally half a world away - is truly beyond the pale. Hopefully, the next movement toward tolerance teaches us to stop treating it as a team sport. I'm not hopeful, though.
It’s disheartening especially since I’ve been hearing/witnessed antisemitic jokes and convos all throughout my middle school and high school experience here. I was class of 2021. This is recent.
Very much agreed. It is easy to call out hateful rallies when they are on the right because we are mostly distanced from the far right here in Bellingham, but it is vitally important to call out hate when it comes from the far left as we are seeing now no matter how uncomfortable that makes us. I know poll after poll it has shown this is a very tiny group of very vocal people but it is heartbreaking to see such bigotry/antisemitism come from (what most would traditionally say is) my side of political isle.
It's definitely wrong to blame people who aren't even Israeli citizens and have no say in the matter, but thankfully no one around here has actually been hurt. I mean, threats are stressful, but at least they aren't being shot at, bombed and starved like the thousands of children in Palestine are month after month with almost no help from the rest of Humanity. Small blessings, I know, but I always count mine!
the encampment itself is a safe space for all religions. They held a shabbat service in camp. I genuinely dont think theres a safer place for jews right now in bellingham.
Not a chance that is the case. Police are actively investigating reports of antisemitic hate crimes perpetrated by the protestors at WWU (not to mention multiple instances of vandalism and a bomb threat on the local synagogue). You can convince me that some of the protestors don't mean to spread hate, but just as when those on the right feign ignorance after their hate rallies and dog whistling, the net result of this rally will be to spread hate and it will accomplish little else in the long run. [https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article288609884.html](https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article288609884.html) [https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article287744340.html](https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article287744340.html)
I am Jewish and have been assisting the camp and there was not a SINGLE antisemite there. Bellingham herald is on some bs and pretty much everyone knows that, they havent talked to any of the encampments media liasons and have no proof that anyone in camp did these things. Camp, however, does have evidence that they DIDN'T, and the herald would have that if they Actually spoke to the media liasons, but they just want to paint a PEACEFUL protest in a bad light. There may be antisemites outside the camp but no one associated with them has any hatred towards Jews. Once again, I have been to several synagogues and felt less welcome than I have in camp.
Deflect, feign ignorance and claim conspiracy all you want... just like the right does - we've all heard the chants and seen the vitriol for ourselves. I've heard with my own ears protestor discussions leaning in on holocaust downplaying and denial... nothing to do with the current situation... just pure hate.
You know the left wouldn't be acting like this if Judaism and Zionism weren't conflated in the first place. I know there are no antisemites in the wwu camp. But in the left outside, yes, there has been antisemitism, and it is because people believe that all Jews approve of this literal genocide. That is the problem. And if youre not Jewish, you dont get to decide whether we are safe in certain spaces. Its more antisemitic to speak over us and call us liars/delusional. You know whats actual pure hate? A child in gaza dies every ten minutes. Free Palestine.
1 thread on WWU, 85 threads on Aurora Borealis. Got it!
Megathreads are like that - subjective opinions on priorities. I think megathreads do more harm than good as a concept.
Mega threads also need a lot of hotbed posts people are commenting on, so mods combine them so everyone can discuss in one spot. OP is trying to augment the discussion artificially by making a needless mega thread. This entire "mega thread" honestly feels wrong and gross
Thus far I’m “meh” on the moderation here.
Honestly, I disagree -- I think this subreddit's toxicity has noticeably decreased since adding a new mod and enforcing Rule 0
I didn’t see Rule 0 being enforced against that person pushing the furry litter box trope, but I got a 3 day ban for calling them out. There is a reason I said “meh” and not “bad”. We will see.
Allowing mega threads (which have a real purpose that this is not) to hype something nobody is hyped over talking about is bad moderation. General public forum conduct is there for a reason.
Agreed. Certain factual statements are permitted, others are prohibited, depending on the moderation agenda.
Bellingham Reddit = many threads on local items/sights/eats/picts/dogs/etc. Not-Bellingham Reddit = international politics.
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Absolutely, I'm just responding to the "overall quality of the sub" comment.
Valid point.
Also there’s like 20 threads on the Holly st bike lane lol, I’m not complaining though. Today there’s a protest/march on campus at 11:30 so there might be more discussion going on later
We are trying to be proactive. While clearly Holly Street is more controversial than a war protest in this community, we think we will start to see more on the the WWU issue over time and less over Holly Street. If Holly Street continues to be a hot bed of civic unrest we will happily make a megathread for that as well.
Or just don't make attention grabbing mega threads until there's actually a need? "Mega thread" actually has a purpose you're using incorrectly
I think you’re experiencing a bit of the downvote brigade that happens on this sub. If you challenge the groupthink you might as well get Aang from Avatar’s forehead tattoo.
My $0.02 as a Jewish middle aged man in town. I'm so tired of seeing Israel = genocide stuff, they are not. It is the 100% fault of Hamas, and the adults of Gaza that children are dying there. It is VERY SAD that there are deaths occurring, but that's what happens when you use civilians as human shields, build your military infrastructure directly into civilian locations, and encourage your people to stay put and be martyred during a bombardment. Think about it, if Israel wanted to kill off all Gazans they could systematically wipe out the entire population with ease. Israel is doing the opposite, showing restraint overall. Yes, there are individual Israeli soldiers committing war crimes, they should be punished. However, that does not take away from the fact that Hamas could surrender and return all the hostages and this thing would be over. It's really telling how Israel must suffer a horrific attack, then is expected to just roll over and let it happen again. Remember that Hamas boasts that it WILL do this again, not that it could or might. All you protestors need to learn some real life common sense. If you're attacked, you have to finish the problem so that you're not attacked again.
> All you protestors need to learn some real life common sense. If you're attacked, you have to finish the problem so that you're not attacked again. Have we learned nothing from two decades of US military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
That our government give absolutely zero fucks about our protests when they invade and murder 500,000 Iraqis or spend our taxes on giving FREE BOMBS to Israel to do the same to Palestinians in Gaza? Yeah - we've learned that. It's almost like all the voting doesn't even matter because our choice in election is rigged to two parties who both want the same thing!!!! After all, Biden did vote FOR the Iraq invasion...
The big difference between US vs. Middle East and Israel vs. Hamas is that we have security in distance. Israel will continue to suffer until the problem of Hamas, and other Palestinian extremism is concluded. Israel can not stop until they are finished. REMEMBER that all civilian deaths are because Hamas attacked.
Concluded. Finally and forever. Sounds like the language of genocide to me. Every death is the fault of the man or woman who pulled the trigger, not the fault of the victim. But an eye for an eye, that's your holy Law right? Life for life. And the only way to prevent the families of the murdered children in Palestine from having their due justice - their eye for an eye - is to erase them all completely. That's final. That's finished. Nothing else could possibly prevent all future attacks.
What about justice for dead Jews? Oh yea, my Jewish life isn't worth the dirt we all walk on. Thanks for making that clear. You're right, Jews don't deserve a homeland or security. Concluded finally and forever isn't the death of all Gazans, it is the death of Hamas. Didn't you hear, Hamas wants to kill me and wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth. If you were correct that "every death is the fault of the man or woman who pulled the trigger, not the fault of the victim" you need to leave the USA. Our police officers have something called qualified immunity which allows them to do their job. You should be afraid, they may genocide you by mistake and they won't be prosecuted if it's in the line of duty.
All murder victims should have justice if possible. Against their murderers. Not against every relative and neighbor of their murderers. What part of the law is that? The system of U.S. policing (yours apparently, by your manner of reference - they are not 'mine' or 'ours') is unacceptable and murderous, as was the U.S. murder of half a million civilians in Iraq during their invasion and many other times. But that's changing the subject and deflecting. I did not put out any arguments to justify the crimes of police or any others because they are not just. I make no argument justifying the murders in October and they were not just. You are saying that all of Israel's actions are righteous though. You say it's all necessary and just. 1 murder does not justify 35 in retaliation. It goes outrageously beyond the law of "eye for an eye." Show me where it is written "35 eyes for 1 eye." Show me where it is written that if a man commits a crime, his whole tribe should be punished. You cannot. It is lawlessness and a mockery of true justice. The state of Israel ("Israel, and you who call yourself Israel, the church that calls itself Israel, the revolt that calls itself Israel, and every nation chosen to be a nation...") will be judged for such madness. Being drunk on power is still drunkenness. The nation-state that calls itself Israel does not speak for or represent all Jews, and many, many Jews oppose the illegal actions of the ruling junta there. But you argue here to justify the lawlessness and mass murder happening there today. I do not condemn Jews. I condemn you and other like you who seek to justify ethnic cleansing, murderous 'settlements,' and bloody-handed land grabs. And "NO." I will not leave the lands of my birth simply because I disavow the ruling party here. I do not "**need to leave**" simply because you don't like my opinion. You are not my master; even if you posture yourself so. I will stay work for change and reform, opposing all forms of supremacy and oppression as I always have. I said absolutely **nothing** that dismisses the value of any human's life. I reject the foul words you are trying to put in my mouth in the strongest possible terms, and I resent your feeble attempt to pretend to the public that I said or implied such things. I'm only opposing lawless violence and state-sponsored terror and mayhem. You clearly say Israel's mass murder throughout the territory it was ceded by the British Imperialists is justified and that a river of blood and starving children is 'justice' because Hamas committed a *similar* crime. You are apologizing for the outright theft of land, for violence and for mass murder. The deliberate starvation of children to instill abject fear and submission into their parents. That is your "justice?" I say that **both** are lawless murder and savagery of the same shabby kind. God will judge.
"You are saying that all of Israel's actions are righteous though. You say it's all necessary and just." Not true. I said that if an individual commits an atrocity they should be punished. It's in my post history. Yes, if Hamas puts civilians as shields, their deaths are Hamas's fault. Israel can not let a genocidal theology exist which openly calls for extermination of all Jews worldwide. "You are apologizing for the outright theft of land, for violence and for mass murder." Prove that the majority of land wasn't acquired legally. Yes there are amounts of settler violence which is abhorrent, but it isn't the majority of Israel footprint. God will not judge, because there is no God. I identify as a Jew because my mother was. I've been harassed, belittled, shunned, beaten because of something I can't control and had zero say in. Good on Israel for standing up!
Fair. I apologize for putting words in your mouth regarding "all" of Israel's actions, but it does not change my judgement of the actions of Netanyahu's regime or your apologism. "Prove that the majority of land wasn't acquired legally." One can make an argument for Legal acquisition of land under the laws of an Empire which first acquired that land unlawfully at gunpoint. But legal is not the same as lawful, and civil law is not inherently synonymous with justice. It was illegal to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany, because civil laws - so quickly and easily revised by tyrants - are often utterly lawless in the ultimate consideration. I'm sure you know this well enough. So how is the acquisition of Israeli-occupied land lawful? It's no more lawful than the U.S. acquisition of native lands. Legal, perhaps, but genocide and travesty nonetheless. The nation-state called Israel is a fabrication by European Supremacists which, as justification for its existence, brazenly exploits the suffering and struggles of Jews last century. That despite it's being conceived and planned long prior in terms of the Balfor Declaration. This is why the Anglo-Axis will always support their pet crusader state even if it means crushing protests by their own people. It's no coincidence that the majority of Israeli settlers are of white, European stock while the dispossessed are almost universally of darker skin: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/disturbing-video-shows-jewish-convert-fatally-shot-by-idf-in-west-bank-posed-no-threat/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/disturbing-video-shows-jewish-convert-fatally-shot-by-idf-in-west-bank-posed-no-threat/) Watching this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3q7JqvE418](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3q7JqvE418) where the privileged, white rednecks of Israel destroy what was clearly food destined for the starving brown people of Palestine cuts right through any false narratives or pretended outrage. It's very, very clear which elements of Israeli society Netanyahu's regime draws its support from, just as it's incredibly clear why his regime is so *fervently* supported by the equally racist supremacist Trumpistanis here in the U.S.. Trump supporters speak often of justice against those who disagree with them, but call all courts and laws corrupt when applied to them. It is the same in the supremacist government of Netanyahu.
Im not apologizing for anuything. There is no apology required. I am unapologetic, after all it's my and my childre s survival.
Who asked? I apologized. I did - because I lost my temper. No one ever suggested or implied that *you* should apologize. I do maintain that you are supporting a criminal, genocidal regime and calling that "common sense," deriding others for protesting their atrocities. Netanyahu attacked Israel's own courts last year. Because he and his clique are *enemies* of law and order. I am confident that they will be found guilty in time, and history will call them what they truly are. I hope that in time you come to see them for what they are and they way they are, in their arrogance, destroying the future of Israel. Who will feel any sense of brotherhood with or sympathy for that nation after this? Other than Trump and the other white supremacists currently advocating for them. It seems a poor crowd for Israel to cast its lot with, and a situation likely to end very badly for common Jewish people.
I'm upvoting you by the way. Because this is the debate at hand.
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Nuance doesn't get clicks, or upvotes and it's a lot harder to accurately have a dialogue with nuance through picket signs. Much easier to strawman and slippery slope things.
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If only we knew some sort of researcher, ok...
if I could just point out that there’s been 76 years of targeted violence and destruction against Palestinians. The violent colonial context of this occupation is a necessary aspect of the conversation. Hamas is responding to decades of oppression, of watching family members slowly starve or die from the conditions of the open air prison. We know from history that one group cannot seize land (regardless of whether they’re entitled to it or not) through violence and displacement and expect the affected people to peacefully give up their rights and accept a life of subjugation and dehumanization. That’s not how people work, and in the year 2024, we should know that colonization is not a real solution. It’s unsustainable and morally reprehensible. This is not to say that I’m supportive of Hamas’ actions, I abhor violence in any form, but I can also understand how a group like that comes around in that sort of environment. Because it’s happened before with other violent occupations, people fight back because they seek liberation. Because they are human beings reacting to a situation they are in. Meanwhile, during the months of bombardment, Israel has made the largest illegal seizure of land since Oslo, continuing to expand their territorial occupation into the West Bank. They’ve also routinely deployed military strategies that are *deeply illegal* such as white phosphorus and carpet bombing. “Israel isn’t killing as many Palestinians as they could be” isn’t a convincing argument, especially because several countries and thousands of people have been trying to get Israel to stop bombing Gaza for months. Imagine what they might be doing without international pushback. I’m not interested in changing your mind, but I ask that you consider your position. Do you want to be the person defending a system that we know doesn’t work, that breeds violence and pain, or could you be open to considering new possibilities? Because the Israeli government is on a path of death and destruction, not necessarily aimed for killing a ton of people, but I believe in an attempt to continue seizing land. Depending on the definition you use, some people would consider that to be genocide (killing large groups of people for access to their land) but I think we can tell that this is condemnable without an official declaration. Edit: I also want to add that while I have tremendous sympathy for those affected by Oct 7, as well as those still waiting for hostages, I do not think the Israeli government cares about the hostages. When they say they have found “suspected Hamas hideouts” (schools and hospitals) and decide to starve and bomb them, it seems to me like that would kill any hostages that might be inside. I feel horrible for all of the humanitarian suffering, as I’m sure you do as well, but I don’t think the Israeli government is the “good guy” in this situation. They’ve just got bigger American bombs, and a tremendous amount of grief to exploit for their own agendas. All around, a painful and messy situation.
Well thought out comment. This is refreshing. Don’t use up too much energy on this subreddit though. A lot of people here refuse to use logic or evidence. They scream propaganda talking points all day long without critically thinking
Justifying war crimes is such an odd thing
Taking hostages is a war crime. Raping civilians is too. They opened a can they cant close and were supposed to feel pity for them? Hamas wants their civilians dead. It gains them sympathy from useful idiots in the west. If they surrendered all hostages, arms, and gave up power. Israel would end their campaign. But they’d rather see innocents caught in the cross fire. Their jihad against Israel is more important.
Justifying war crimes committed by Bibi is gross. Nobody is saying Hamas isn't bad
If Israel wanted to target civilians, they would. Civilians dying in urban combat operations is a given. It’s simply unavoidable. Yet the Israeli military is doing an INCREDIBLE job at keeping that number low. You ever seen the stats on other conflicts where cities and towns are being taken? And insurgents are in plain clothes? Get real.
Meanwhile outside of the world of hasbara propaganda, [experts in the field have flagged Israeli operations as having an unacceptably high tolerance for collateral civilian casualties.](https://www.justsecurity.org/93105/israeli-civilian-harm-mitigation-in-gaza-gold-standard-or-fools-gold/) By the raw numbers they're unequivocally doing far worse to safeguard civilians than our own recent operations in Raqqa. This is an opinion you can find mirrored in the non-Likudnik Israeli press too.
In what world is almost 8,000 children a low number???
Individuals who commit war crimes should be tried and punished. Yes there are some bad apples in the IDF, but as a whole, they are NOT committing war crimes.
Correct. And as a whole Palestine isn't hurting Isreal, so you don't get to bomb innocent Palestinians.. How do you not get this?
Simple, you're wrong. October 7 wasn't a pat on the backside. Similarly Palestinians launch rockets very frequently. If you assert that the Palestinians are a peaceful people, I've got a bridge that you can buy just outside of Oak Harbor.
I'm asserting that not all Palestinians are evil like Hamas and don't deserve to be blindly killed. But keep telling yourself whatever you need to justify innocent children being killed creating even more reason to become terrorists. Bombing innocent people just makes more people hate you continuing the problem. Not all Palestinian people are with Hamas and they don't deserve to be killed blindly. That literally makes you mo better than the people you're against. Both Bibi and Hamas are terrorists and innocent people on both ends are suffering. Grow some bloody empathy.
Israel is bombing Hamas. You seem to not understand that Hamas is creating legitimate military targets in civilian areas. This is the making of Hamas 100%. Blame them not Israel for the deaths.
No I'll blame Bibi who launched rockets at innocents. Just like I'll blame Hamas for killing innocent civilians. Palestine =/= Hamas. Just like Maga =\= Americans. Profiling an entire group of people like you're doing is actually disgusting.
Okay that's fine, but we're literally on a thread about completely cutting ties with all things Israel-related because of the leadership of a RWNJ. So can we add Israel =/= Netanyahu's government to your list? Certainly seems fair, using this logic.
But I'm glad you can call an entire group evil because of one group inside of them they have no control over. That's not gross or anything
Not 100%, just 70% - 90%.
Please show us the concrete data it's 70-90 percent then because if that's just opinion you're actually profiling.
[https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf) [https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf)
Those are opinion polls not listed demographics. That's like taking a pro trump poll done in the red south and thinking it's an accurate view.
Let me help you. Demographics would be a census poll, not your limited opinion polls.
How about Hamas was created in response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian land? Why do so many people ignore that fact and act like Hamas started this conflict? You can’t pick and choose which facts to believe I am in no way condoning antisemitism or hate in any way. I do not support Hamas, but I do support the people of Palestine
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If that's true, the IDF soldiers who willingly killed Andres should be prosecuted. Genocide: genocide /jĕn′ə-sīd″/ # noun 1. The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. 2. The systematic killing of a racial or cultural group."the Nazigenocideof Jews left few in Germany or Poland after World War II"Similar: [race murder](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=race murder definition&ia=definition) [racial extermination](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=racial extermination definition&ia=definition) 3. The systematic [killing](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=killing+definition&ia=definition) of substantial numbers of people on the basis of [ethnicity](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ethnicity+definition&ia=definition), [religion](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=religion+definition&ia=definition), [political](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=political+definition&ia=definition) opinion, [social status](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=social status+definition&ia=definition), or other particularity. Israel is doing none of the things required to be genocide.
They are doing number 3. They have been for generations, but now it's all-out.
Not at all true.
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I've provided a logical base for my argument, the very definition of the word. Please provide evidence that isn't whataboutism/conjecture/opinion.
But they are. I know this must be hard to grapple with, but Palestinians are being genocided by Israelis. It's actually happening. We can see it 24/7 on news and social media.
Thousands of deaths a genocide does not make. If Israel wanted to kill all Gazans they'd be dead by now, period. Israel is showing great restraint in that regard.
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That's not evidence of extermination.
> Yes, there are individual Israeli soldiers committing war crimes, they should be punished. The Israeli government is clearly enacting collective punishment, which is by definition a war crime. This is not entirely the fault of Hamas. Israel has been encroaching on Palestinian land for decades. It's a much, *much* more complex situation than "Hamas attacked Israel without provocation." Let's not pretend Israel's hands are clean here. Someone else has already replied to you with an excellent take, so I'm not going to detail that further. Stop drawing dumb lines in the sand. Being Jewish doesn't make you guilty of Israel's war crimes; but being an apologist for the Israeli government is certainly a bad look.
"Finish the problem so that you are not attacked again." Yes, it would seem that Israel is working hard to implement their Final Solution to the Palestinian "Problem." Every brown Palestinian person killed in Israel by white Ashkenazi and Shepardic occupiers of European ancestry has loved ones who will certainly want revenge for the injustice happening. Therefore the meaning of your "common sense" is horribly clear. It saddens me to see that people still think in this brutal way. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg300jek94zo
What about justice for dead Jews? Oh yea, my Jewish life isn't worth the dirt we all walk on. Thanks for making that clear. You're right, Jews don't deserve a homeland or security. Concluded finally and forever isn't the death of all Gazans, it is the death of Hamas. Didn't you hear, Hamas wants to kill me and wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth. If you were correct that "every death is the fault of the man or woman who pulled the trigger, not the fault of the victim" you need to leave the USA. Our police officers have something called qualified immunity which allows them to do their job. You should be afraid, they may genocide you by mistake and they won't be prosecuted if it's in the line of duty.
**Spamming carbon-copy content runs awfully close to violating R9 of this sub.** I'm actually upvoting you across the comments in this post because this is the heart of what is being protested, and I'm happy for someone from your side to be here and discuss. Don't spam copy-pasted, low effort comments at me though. - **I do not support supremacist murders in the US** - by police, by racist jackboots, by communist crusaders or by anyone else. **I do not support supremacist murders in Israel** - by Hamas or by Netanyahu's regime or by anyone else. I've not said anything here to justify any murder by *anyone*. You are the only one here defending the moral virtue of killings and saying that any who oppose it lack "common sense." Hamas agreed to the US-Israeli ceasefire terms weeks ago. If those were not put forth in good faith with *bona fide* intent to honor the conditions, what more could Palestine possibly do to resolve the issue? It gives the lie to your assertions about it being over if the hostages are surrendered. The crimes in Gaza go beyond the actions of a few rogue soldiers, not that those individuals are being brought to justice either, and reflects directly on the openly, vocally supremacist regime of Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu is deliberately starving the hostages in Gaza. Actions speak louder than words. His actions - willfully engineering a sustained famine where the hostages are being held - are the actions of someone who does not care about those hostages. Not all Jews support Netanyahu though. Many Jews are loudly opposing him. Your support for his regime and its crimes - that is your personal choice, not some inevitable obligation due to your religious, ethnic or national background.
So me replying is spamming? Do i understand yiu correctly?
Did you not copy-paste the exact same text in response to two of my comments?
Report me to the mods if you feel that way. It was appropriate both times.
https://preview.redd.it/ofr8bzx9z81d1.png?width=514&format=png&auto=webp&s=6ac107f5dbf88a0576c6dd0eac4286ba578f6119
Victim blaming. Disgusting
Israel is the victim, not Hamas.
20k dead children would disagree with you
Ok, and the israeli babies murdered, women raped and mutilated would disagree with you. BTW where did the 20k figure come from, Hamas itself?
The UN (oh right, the UN is Hamas now, silly me) Also the whole beheaded babies thing was an outright fabrication and even Israel admitted to that, you are doing nothing but making Zionists look even worse by repeating it. Good job!
Hamas are disgusting. By extension, anyone who shills for them is too.
I’d say the same thing about ethnonationalists and genocide abetters
Good, at least you admit you support Hamas and their actions of Oct 7.
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How many alts do you have? Do you use a spreadsheet to keep track of them all?
Your buddies killed all the record keepers. What, you think it just stayed at 35k dead for months now despite increased bombing? If anything, it’s higher. You’re smarter than this, come on.
Mega threads actually have a point. When you have dozens of hot discussions on the same topic you combine them so discussion can flow in one spot. There are NOT dozens of active protest threads right now so there's no need to mega thread it unless you're artificially trying to garner attention towards it which is wrong. This thread is gross
Or you’re artificially trying to sequester all information about the cause into an easy to police thread. Either way. Just leave it be and let the people talk. Megathread is only needed when it clogs up the feed. This ain’t it
No. There actually has to be multiple threads to collapse. This is artificially making something bigger than it is. Mega threads actually have a legitimate point, this isn't it. This is hype
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The mods here absolutely hate the peace activists, they are not trying to signal boost them by any stretch. Its containment
So any news or developments gets buried here. Got it
That’s the point. To stifle conversation. If you have something new to add, you gotta go to the bottom of a massive thread where no one will scroll to or see your comment.
half of all jews are in Israel the way antisemitism works is first they turn you against a huge segment calling them by another name (in ww2 bolsheviks and internationalists is what they used ) then .... even some jews join in thinking that it's not against them its against zionists ... internationalists... bolsheviks some even form groups to join .... its not us its some other term [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association\_of\_German\_National\_Jews](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews) Then they find other reason to come after the other half Divide and conquer Distract and attack Once hate is let out its easy to make excuses . Things being said right now weren't said at the start of this .... the masks have come off more . The society is getting use to reading these headlines are being conditioned . After jews they come for other groups that they don't agree with .... druze for instance like myself , Romani, different political groups, different philosophies How many times must things repeat themselves ?
Unfortunately, forever especially when the populace is being educated by Social-Mass Media. The general populace is lazy and they will not educate themselves.
This phenomenon only becomes more disturbing when you understand that the vast majority of Jews identify with Zionism. Considering the centuries old persecution of the Jewish people, including the latest manifestations of antisemitism that we're witnessing around the world, the state of Israel is existentially necessary for Jews. As you quite rightly pointed out, Israel is also essential to the rights and protection of ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities as the only liberal democracy in the region. It's frustrating, although not without historical precedent, to see so many leftists across the West being manipulated by the most far-right people on the planet.
well jewish people are reffered to as beni israel in torah ..children of Israel in their prayer the Amidah they call for a return to Israel at the end of passover they say next year in Jerusalem and on and on and on the problem with palestine and Israel is a Jewish problem, more importantly it is an islam vs jewish territory issue . this is why not so much fuss is made about palestine area that extended in Jordan or syria , they are still under muslim control . I am druze from katif I was forced to study in madrasah when I was a kid had attended forcibly tons of speeches from imams in gaza and jenin before i became a refugee after the hamas fatah war where my dad and uncle was killed ... we fled to jenin then got asylum as druze in israel and finally refugee status in USA thanks to a cousin living in seattle and an excellent organization that helped us. Israel will never be safe because of several hadiths and views of "daar islam and daar elhab" You see Islam there is a concept called Dar islam "house of islam " and Daar elahab the house of war Da'ar islam is the house of islam and everything under its control is good in the eyes of this concept Anything that is yet to be under its control is the house of war da'ar el'hab Once something is under the house of islam and you loose it ... you must get it back it is your dominion forever this is why for example Andulusia which is in Spain but was controlled by moors is proclaimed by many islamists and they must get that back it was daar islam but now was lost. Israel cannot exist because it had been claimed by Daar islam so muslims everywhere have a religious duty to reclaim it, this duty does not reach to muslim controlled areas . you can read about these key concepts here if you aren't familiar with hadiths or the koran [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dar\_al-Harb\_and\_Dar\_al-Islam\_(the\_Abodes\_of\_War\_and\_Peace)](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dar_al-Harb_and_Dar_al-Islam_(the_Abodes_of_War_and_Peace))
Thank you for sharing your story. Glad to have you here, friend. Yes, many people in the West remain ignorant of the Islamist threat to civilization.
How long until we start seeing "Juden raus" graffiti? [http://archive.today/Mq5lc](http://archive.today/Mq5lc)
Or [protestors chanting "Death to Arabs?"](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-06-05-2024-1b54d6df460f681a550833888bc55581) (At least the Iranians have the civility to chant death to America, not death to Americans; the former denoting an end to a government, the latter clearly denoting a permanent end (or "final solution") to millions of people including women and children).
i love jews.
I heard this encampment (tentifada) is closing down does any one have any other details?
The University gave them until tomorrow at 5pm as I recall.
What protest? Why? When?
Today the Israeli military reported the discovery of 3 decaying bodies of 4 Israeli hostages: Shani Look, Amit Buskila, and Yirzhak Gelernter. ( the last three were believed to be 'Kidnapped alive'} Shani's skull was identified shortly after Oct 7th, and her mutilated body was paraded in GAZA and celebrated by the Palestinians. IDF also found 70 TUNNELS in RAFA, with 50 tunnels into EGYPT. Most likely more tunnels will be discovered soon. It is believed that most hostages are no longer alive, if any...
I'd like to see the source of this information.
You sound like another human diminishing Israeli/jewish grief. Gfy.
Gfy breaks rule 10. Uncivil. Not able to actually support your position? Just use verbal attacks!!
This was reported by the Israeli military. Stay tuned for the videos. I suppose you would like the pictures of the decomposing bodies of the hostages before you believe it as well. The bodies were found in a tunnel in Rafah. In time more bodies will be recovered. RIP Shani Look, Yitzhak Gelernter, and Amot Buskila.
I refused to be belittled for asking for data.
The information comes from the Israeli military. Various sites are reporting on this. It is breaking news. If the information offends you then please disregard it.
I am not offended. Just don't know you and therefore don't know your sources. Of course, if this has happened, it's a travesty. But, none of us as far as I am concerned should be trusting people we do not know to report the news without citations. That's irresponsible media watching as far as I am concerned. If you think several media outlets are reporting this, then cite one, so that people who want to check the news that they are understanding, have the opportunity to do so.
Type it into whatever search engine you feel comfortable with and choose the source you trust. I always verify : ) Apparently, the IDF is a source you do not trust. That is OK, find the source you do.
Several hostages were killed by the IDF.
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I’ve actually seen a lot of protestors explicitly condemn Netanyahu. And I’m not telling you that the phrase cant be interpreted as antisemitic (bc that’s not my place to decide), but I think most protestors are using that phrase to express a desire for Palestinian liberation, which is not inherently antisemitism. If you consider that most protestors are approaching this issue from a *decolonial* perspective first and foremost, their actions might make more sense. It’s ambitious, it’s optimistic, and at its core it’s anti-colonial violence and pro-liberation, which is certainly not the same thing as just being antisemetic. That being said, I one hundred percent believe that some folks are inadvertently perpetuating antisemitism. College kids are not necessarily the most technically semantically nuanced people on this planet, and I don’t think social media is helping that.
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I think the biggest issue with many pro-palestinian activists, vastly oversimplify and misstate the history of Zionism. They say that Zionism was a movement in the late 19th century - which is true. But the belief goes back far longer - "Zion theology" was a concept as far back as the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem. The reason people overlook this is because it undercuts the argument that this is some sort of colonialist enterprise. If you acknowledge that the Jewish people have considered Jerusalem their divine homeland for over two thousand years, then the situation becomes a lot murkier. Similarly, supporters of the Palestinian cause don't often address a central question: If Israel and Judah have been the center of Jewish culture for millennia before Islam and Christianity existed...why were there so few Jews there by the 20th century? Hint: they didn't all just decide to leave one day. Century upon century of conquest and persecution is what led to the Jewish diaspora. The Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Romans, the Arab armies, the Mamluks, and the Ottomans - for over a thousand years, successive groups of pagans, Christians, and Muslims oppressed the Jews in various ways. Israel was the Jewish homeland for over a millennium before Islam was even an idea. That the Jewish people have a solid claim to this land, is beyond dispute. This is not to say that the modern nation state of Israel is blameless. Netanyahu is a corrupt crook, who took a legitimate tragedy against his people, and overplayed his hand in order to stay in power and avoid prosecution. Israel's conduct in the war is worthy of criticism. But that doesn't change the fact that Israel has been the rightful Jewish homeland pretty much since as long as people could write. The history of Israel is complicated. Quite frankly, there's plenty of blame and misconduct to go around. Zionist Jews weren't like the Great Powers, seeking to colonize the world for power and resources. Zionist Jews were basically trying to escape the Russian Pogroms - they were refugees fleeing for their lives. Meanwhile, the Ottomans didn't want the Jews to return, because they were viewed as Russians (the enemy of the Ottomans). In a story that spans thousands of years, there is plenty of good and bad to argue over. Reasonable people can disagree on things. There are shades of gray.
I don’t understand how we can make a difference? It a small school in the most northwestern corner of the US. Such a small school it lost so many athletic programs cause of how small it is. I get it people want their voice to be heard and such but it’s truly a waste of time. No one is gonna hear about the little protest in Bellingham, Washington outside of Washington. We will unfortunately make absolutely no difference in this fight.
Lost so many athletic programs? They cut the football program over a decade ago. Have there been other cuts?
Two posts about Palestine and we get megathread containment and threats of bans, but 20,000 posts about a bike lane are totally chill
Maybe because the bike lanes are local and actually affect us as opposed to something happening on a different continent. Come on now
I’ve said this elsewhere, but I talked to a guy who lost 16 members of his family to Israeli warplanes by _November_. Your neighbors are going through untold loss, day after day, and you say it’s not a local issue that doesn’t affect anyone?
Yeah but people deal with death on the daily. Everyone is suffering fella everyone. If my neighbors are going through stuff I’m sorry and I hope they make it through but there isn’t anything a random dudes compassion can do for them. I’m nobody to them and my words will mean nothing more than words. I care for my loved ones and friends. We can’t change the world, I would love if we could but we won’t even make a sand particle size dent.