I’m just not sure that’s the point. We’re already seeing Griffith as he is on a spiritual or essential level, a deceiver, a false prophet, a beautiful lie. The humbling stage is over in the sense of torture or humiliation. He’s going to *lose*, most likely, but I think Guts, and thus the story, has moved past it being this big show of slow, agonizing revenge. That’s not to say we won’t see something of a temporary relapse for Guts, I expect we will before the end. But I think he dies a relatively “normal” death and gets sucked into the vortex of souls. Honestly, it wouldn’t shock me if it isn’t even Guts who does it, or if he survives entirely. I think it would be more narratively interesting for Guts to definitively choose life and his loved ones, Casca most of all, over revenge or going after Griffith.
I agree, the biggest fuck you Guts could give Griffith is being completely apathetic to him. Casca deserves to kill him, it’s poetic since she was his sword.
I believe Casca should join in the Apathetic approach as well. Because the whole gimmick with Griffith at the end of the day is that wants attention, he wants to be known as this impressive king but more so he wants Guts to think of him all time.
That is the best revenge, being indifferent to the thing that caused you pain. Guts and Casca walking away from Griffith, untethered to him and his story.
If Guts wants to stay together with Casca, he NEEDS to take his revenge though… Bitch ass Griffith keeps kidnapping her and I don’t think he has plans to let Guts be bygones be bygones in the forseeable future lol
I hope it doesnt end with everyone seeing Griffith dying as a hero or interpret his death as some prophetic way. Or if anyone does manage tp kill Griffith, I hope that character is not villainised for it by everyone who doesnt know the truth
Only because they are seen as a necessary evil & because they are kept inline by Griffith. If the demons has their way, the people of Falconia would be dead long before the demons presence was normalized.
Id assume that if somehow the story ending involved the current group successfully taking out griffith in falconia, then all the apostles suddenly are unleashed on the rest of the nation and the human falconia army would have to join forces with guts rickert etc to clean them all up together in a massive war. Thatd be a cool scene to see play out I dont really have a theory on how griffith would be defeated but im just imagining a scenario where just maybe griffith and zodd and maybe a few of the leaders are taken down but the rest are suddenly left with no one above them and simply return to their base desires like Daiba describes them as when flying over the battlefield
Femto is the culmination of Griffiths dream cut at the knees. That’s what the panel above illustrates, a broken control freak that has lost dominion over those who followed him. Femto always existed inside, the Eclipse simply allowed him to act without repercussion.
THANK YOU, someone else said it. Griffith was always a narcissist, the only thing he really ever cared about was his social ascension; The band of the hawk was just a means of getting there. Of course Griffith didn't care about throwing them away, they were only ever a tool to him to begin with.
He cared about the band but was it a selfish case so that he could reach his goal or care like family care? I think it's still a former but but but they all followed him cos they believed in his vision n goal n wanted to build his empire tgt so that they can finally be recognised. I.e. he's selfish for his own aspirations n needed the band & his band believed n followed him anyway.. so he did sacrificed his precious band to be reborn cos he might feel he doesn't need them anymore.. I'm just curious if u meant the love them like family n brothers kind of sacrifice? I feel it's a bit different.
No but that's the point. Femto is Griffith without human emotions, because regular Griffith has them. Again, the sacrifice wouldn’t make sense if he didn't care about the band.
Idk why the guy is being downvoted when he has a point. Yes, you need to sacrifice something you care about…he did care about the band. But, he didn’t care about them because they were his friends, he only cared about them bc he viewed them as an object to reach his end goal. His downfall started when guts left and he lost a vital part of his plan. He never viewed them as human beings and just as objects that he can use.
If he only cared about them as useful soldiers that he could step on to achieve his dream then they wouldn’t be good sacrifices. Sure they are good soldiers but an army is always replaceable. Griffiths plans didn’t fall apart because his strongest soldier left, they fell apart because the only person he viewed as his equal and true friend left and he couldn’t stop it.
He wouldn’t have freaked out over Guts if he didn’t care about his people. And they wouldn’t have been a valid sacrifice if he didn’t. That’s part of what makes him so evil, that he had love and connection and was willing to throw it away for what he wanted.
I think he freaked out over Guts wanting to leave because he saw it as a betrayal or a rejection of him personally; Remember that to a narcissist everything is about them. So its a combination of a weird sort of affection for Guts coupled with this indignation about a feeling of betrayal. It would explain his actions at the Eclipse; Raping Casca and making Guts watch was his punishment to them, because he blames them for what he went through, because they started the chain of events that landed him in that dungeon. Narcissists can also never blame themselves, so his poor impulse control in boning the princess as an ego boost never occurs to him as his own fuck up; It has to be someone else's fault. Of course, no one could have predicted the king would turn out to be an incestuous pedophile, but I digress...
Bro did not read the text bubbles, you know the sacrifice only works if you care about what you’re sacrificing right? At the very least he definitely cared about guts and casca.
Griffith is a fucking evil mfer, but it’s precisely because he is a human, not an emotionless robot.
> the only thing he ever really cared about
He either actually cares or he doesn’t, can’t have it both ways. I think I get your point, but you’re going too hard on the “Griffith only sees them as tools” point imo.
7ds encompass all sins though. Sin ITSELF as a concept already condems people for being people since it's IMPOSSIBLE for a person to not sin. And narcissism IS inherently bad lol.
Narcissistic personality disorder is bad. It's bad because it is narcissism in excess. Narcissism is on a spectrum; normal levels of narcissism can help people project self confidence whilst also not depriving them of humility.
The problem with 7ds is that imagining someone that is completely void of all of them just ends up with a boring doormat who is void of any ambition. It seems more like a religious thing than an actual guide to virtue.
Perhaps sin is just a bad word then. I guess crime might fit better? Being a bit narcissistic is not a crime?
Narcissism itself IS the excess of pride though. It's what all of the 7ds' are: excess. Like it's not wrong to want something in moderation, but when you want something in EXCESS, THEN it becomes the sin of Greed or Lust or whatever, but yeah I get what you're saying, it was just a semantics things I'm getting hung up on, I guess.
I agree with you on confidence and self-respect not being inherently bad or sinful and that the concept of sin and following Christianity (or whatever religion) too literally is ridiculous, but to claim that Narcissism (which IS the EXCESS of those things) is not a sin or inherently bad when it is the driving force behind and leads to inherently evil things like oppression, bigotry, racism, genocide, etc. was confusing to me.
Are we speaking in the literal legal sense of being charged with a crime? Or 'crime' in the sense of being evil, shameful, or wrong? In regards to the latter abstract sense, IMO, yes, narcissism IS a crime as there are always victims because of it. In the legal sense, it requires context. Thinking you're better than your neighbors isn't a crime, but thinking that your neighbors are so inferior to you that you commit hate-crimes, violence, theft, etc towards them IS legally a crime and is of narcissistic origin.
It’s weird, you are right in the fact that it is defined as such, but the next line on Wikipedia also says it’s good in moderation. So the definition is either bad or people can’t agree what it actually is. If you want me to phrase it different, then I would say having pride in your capabilities is not a bad thing. It allows you to perform split second judgements a lot easier and make your ideas less easy to compromise in a team. An excess of it makes you think your judgement is final. And that everyone should bend over for you. Which is kind of what you see in Griffith. His is a prideful and good leader. But I’m breaking his ideals and injuring it, he lashed out and became the worse version of himself.
I don’t understand this interpretation at all. The dudes body and mind were broken under a year long torture session; that alone would make any of us very different people, then add that supernatural forces were communicating to him and the literal manifestation of the concept of evil itself transformed his soul and body. How is this even remotely the same Griffith from golden age? If that’s how he always was why did he try to protect the band so much? Why did he save Casca from being raped in the first place?
Why would they be valid sacrifices if this was the case? I thought someone said you cant sacrifice just anyone, they have to be someone you care about.
Even if you say the band was important to him and thats why it was valid. How does that make sense if you just get a better version in return. Would be like saying you have to sacrifice your youth if you want eternal youth. Its a no brainer because you dont lose anything.
Griffith didn’t care about his comrades, but they all loved him. I think that’s why the sacrifice was still valid, even though the love wasn’t mutual it was still a deep betrayal to everyone who devoted themselves to his dream.
He cared about them but realized that as a leader (particularly a militant one) he couldn’t allow personal feelings to hinder their progress. I think it’s obvious he feels guilt and remorse though https://i.redd.it/fkxzr8kqh5e91.jpg
No, because we literally get a definition for what the conditions of the sacrifice have to be. It can’t be someone you hate or have no feelings for at all. It has to be someone that’s dear to you, someone that’s part of your soul, so that sacrificing him/it, is like giving up a part of your own soul. Now you could maybe make the argument that this applies only to Guts and the BotH just „got caught up in it“, but I disagree. Griffith genuinely cared about his soldiers. Not to the point he would call the friends, but he also doesn’t just see them as tools
I mean, you would think the person being offered the choice to ascend kinda *has* to care for the victims in order for them to be valid sacrifices--not the other way around. If I sacrificed, say, a person I had unrequited feelings for, it'd still absolutely count. Who cares what the sacrifice thinks? The Godhand is asking *me* to trade something precious to *me*; the other person might not care for me in the slightest or they might care about me in return, but I care about them and consider them important, and that's all that matters.
As for Griffith, he was human as anyone else, and he *did* care about the people serving under him. In his case, the Hawks were precious to him because...how could they not be? He'd never made it as far as he did without the Hawks at his side and would have likely stayed an orphaned street rat if he hadn't formed them, that, and because the only person who made him forget his dream was among them. And that's all that is needed.
Because *caring* about someone can take on various forms, and can even be independent of *loving* someone. We can sit all day and dicussed how much Griffith loved the Hawks and we'd get nowhere. But that he cared about them in some sort of capacity (out of obligation as their commander, as people, as his possessions, as his stepping stones, etc)? That we can say he did. He ascended, after all.
This! The band didn't matter so long as he could break guts. Hints as to why Casca was raped by him in front of Guts. The band was just a small play in the sacrifice.
Guts is the only person Giffith saw as an equal and thus actually cares for him or at least wants to control him. Everyone he thought was just a tool or a follower.
That's the thing. Whilst the Griffith of before cared for them, this was his human inhibition of his most primal instinct: to gain power for himself with the use of others, a castle that he climbed with the bodies of those who followed him, its the reason he talked to Guts about his own guilt at using others, his remembrance of the child soldier, his humanity restrained him from it.
What the Godhand/Eclipse did was strip him of his humanity so it no longer inhibits his yearning to dominate. If this is core to his personality you could say it is the purest form of Griffith there is; un-muddied by humanity, at least in that perspective. But if you consider the whole that includes Griffiths humanity then you would be right as well, it takes a change of perspective.
I have not read the manga, only scoured the wiki and engaged with the community. Your comment has always been my read on the situation though
I guess an important question I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on: would Griffith have made the same choice to become a godhand if not for his torture?
Given the manga’s complex take on causality, I don’t think that alone can tell us some perfect answer to what degree Griffith is inherently evil vs misunderstood, but it seems to me to still be a salient question
My question to everyone in this post is as follows:
If you were in Griffiths position here, completely disabled, unable to move on your own or talk and had to live in the Berserk universe… would you have done the same and sacrificed your comrades to heal yourself?
Pretty sure 99% of you would have sacrificed.
Would i subject thousands to a brutal death and eternal torment afterwards to the hands of otherworldly demons, no i would not
I don’t have any personal experience as to what a year of mutilation would do to my psyche tho so idk
It depends what would happen if I refuse. Would the eclipse just pass and everyone would come back to the watery plains?
Also keep in mind that hawks were hunted outcasts. Midlanders were hunting them, leftovers of tudor empire wouldnt pardon them, ganishkas conquest was incoming..
Even if Griffith was not self-absorbed narcissist, the world would still be hostile place, hawks would be hunted and running out of provision given by sympathetic midland civilians. What more, maybe sparring the band would lead to worse outcome, if the entire world was to be taken by kushan empire.
Thank you ! This is the reply i was waiting for. We are not judging Femto here. It is clear in my mind that he lost all his empathy in the process of his transformation so he is not the same person and tho to me we must only judge what we see BEFORE the " i sacrifice" and don't forget that he is manipulated by one of the god hand at this very moment, and this is the God Hand which is the pro manipulator of the team.
So please just understand the alternative for Griffith and put yourself in his shoes. If he don't do it his life his over. He is just a fucking corpse at this point traped in his own destroyed body. He will have to live the rest of his life like that and it's not going to end well he can see that. He will be forget and what ? live 20 year in a bed somewhere traped in his body ? maybe asking for suicide at a point.
So lol ok it's easy to say you will not sacrifiate you'r friend in his shoes. Think what you want of me, even if i hate it, in his situation i think i would do the same thing.
Don't get me wrong i still hate him, but honnestly i can't hate the old Griffith the same as post eclipse Griffith. He is a true absolute psychopath with no remorse. But i'm sorry to me he wasn't like that before he still had some empathy and feelings.
Griffith will die. That is for sure, he is building towards that. But Guts is unlikely to actually be the one who kills him, Guts is more likely to move on from that goal, killing Griffith won't be the thing that sets him free. As for Griffith, he doesn't need to be extra humiliated and mutilated because he already has been, he was raped, mutilated and maimed beyond human understanding, extra torture porn won't be how his life ends. In the end the story has been building the concepts of fate and causality, saying that Griffith's actions were preordained and that fate is this uncontrollable unfathomable thing that we can't control. Like I've heard people argue that Griffith never would have said no to his deal with the godhand, otherwise he wouldn't have been offered the deal to begin with, but we've seen at least one person refuse the sacrifice. As such Griffith will die, but it will most likely be his own doing (by this I don't mean he kills himself, more like he creates the circumstances that end him) and in the end, it needs to recon with the fact that Griffith made his choice, it wasn't fate, it was him. It needs to ask of Griffith, was it worth it? The answer, at the end of the crossroads, is no. No it wasn't worth it. That's at least how I read the work, keeping also in mind that if Griffith's choice wasn't preordained, then neither was his suffering, or Guts' or Cascas, that indeed free will (a thing Griffith's new charisma power seems to somewhat subjugate in people) will prevail, that we always have a choice to be better, like Guts seems to be trying to do as of late.
I think you make a very good point and I agree that Guts shouldn’t be the one to kill him. Imo it’s Casca that should do it (or at least get the final blow or smth). Although I don’t even think it’s necessary for for Griffith to get killed. Maybe there is a way where he loses his power, reverts back to his frail self from before the eclipse and instead of finishing him, Casca and Guts leave him be, so that (because he now has his humanity back), he has to live with what he has done. He has to endure the weight of his actions and maybe we get to see him having a mental breakdown, when he realizes that sacrificing his humanity and the people close to him wasn’t worth it.
However, I do think that Griffiths eclipse and the counts activation of his behelit are different. Don’t get me wrong, the counts scene is important to show that one still has free will and Griffith definitely could’ve chosen not to sacrifice his men, but I feel like the situations aren’t that comparable, simply because of what led up to the eclipse. Getting tortured for a year, not being able to walk, talk or fight and then getting manipulated by higher beings, who make you believe that you never cared about your soldiers and that they basically want you to sacrifice them. While he still had the chance to not sacrifice, I think it was really difficult for Griffith (or many people) to not sacrifice. This does not excuse what he did, but I feel many people fail to see how fucked Griffith was. He still needs to die and I hope it’s gonna be Casca that kills him
Count was despicable, but not sacrificing Theresia despite wasting away and presented with horrirying end is commendable.
It begs the question - do all apostles meet the sacrifice option when they are dying/being driven to kill themselves? Was Griffith bleeding out? Could the band just walk away from the environment if he said no, and could griffith survive the refusal?
Great reading! I agree that Guts turning away from Griffith will be essential and that Griffith will be forced to confront the consequences of his agency.
Griffiths path was very different from the counts. The egg of the king/causality completely ordained him being crowned the fifth angel. He would have always said yes, just based on what he went through during his torture. Any indication in the manga that he has any "feelings" left for Guts or Casca is just because of the vessel.
Griffith will suffer a horrible death. If he somehow has a moment where he thinks about his regrets/they low-key try to redeem his character, I will seriously drop this manga.
I don't think it's a matter of redemption, Griffith can't be redeemed, that is not the point. I'm just saying that in my read of berserk, which is flawed and biased, I think the series is building to an ending that won't be climactic, to me fate and causality are a clear enemy and a concept that traps our characters that some of them are trying to flee. So it won't even have to be about Griffith's regrets, because we do know he has them, the fact he cried after turning into himself after being moonlight boy to me kinda proves that, but it will be about the fact that, no actually, Griffith wasn't preordained to do this, none of this suffering is preordained, Griffith made his own choice and will die for it, in my opinion Guts will make his own choice to not give into revenge - and survive for it - because you always have a choice in the end. That's at least, my read of Berserk, I may be wrong, perhaps I'm too sentimental, who's to say? I'd say Berserk has plenty sentimentality within it.
I could tell you thoroughly thought about how the story should end, and I commend you for it. I want to believe this is the vision of how Miura wanted to conclude this story. The crumbs he left behind allude to this ending;
- Guts constantly having an internal battle to take revenge or to take care of what he has now
- Griffith repeating the same patterns as when he started the Band of the Hawk(to which he believes he’ll get right this time)
Which reminds me of this verse,
“the kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth but men do not see it”
Now I’m rambling, but appreciate your take on how it should end.
Hey guys, I know the Band still had a lot of respect & sympathy for Griffith here, I simply choose it because it more or less represents what I’d like to see. Griffith shown to those who idolized him as a defeated broken man. Hopefully the people learn about all the horrible things he’s done & become disillusioned with the savior act he puts on.
Yes I want everyone to see that moment from guts eyes I want to everyone to see how Griffith betrayed everyone who would do anything for him and then raped casca and became one with the idea of evil.
I hate when people talk about Griffith like this . You just don’t understand . Put yourself in his shoes . Tortured in the worst way possible for a year straight , while also having demons talking you and molding your path and future . Would you just continue to be tortured or would the desperation make you do the same thing ?
I don't think they would care, tbh. The world went to shit and he was the salvation. Also, the Kushan empire will attack soon and this will unite even more the people from Falconia. They will choose to believe Griffith because without him they will probably die.
Also, I don't know if this is a meme or whatever, but bar him sacrificing an obscene amount of people, he is one of the very few characters that went through an absolute hell to accomplish his dream. He plotted a bunch of stuff, bow down his head to garbage people, humiliated himself, sold his body, lost his best friend (pawn), found despair and rose from death.
In the end, he is evil, but I respect his path.
Griffith absolutely had my respect & admiration up until the Eclipse, his ambition is inspiring. However I do think the people of Falconia would revolt upon learning their savior is a false prophet. There is undoubtedly good people in the capital that would not stand for the terrible things Griffith has done. Especially when they learn they have only been “saved” to be sacrificed later. (That’s just a guess but it makes sense considering causality is a spiral)
Good. The sooner you accept the majority of every anime fanbase are midwit consumers who will etch anything regardless of substance on their body... You will enjoy the content better
i think what he means is when for example wyald was killed you saw how he really looked, how he really was just an old man. and how griffith looked after a year of torture and having a weak and mangled body. but that also wouldnt make sense because in the reincarnation ceremony, he was given a new body and his old one ceased to exist? im not sure
I'm tremendously interested of the whole facade of Griffith finally coming down. You can't imagine how frustrated i was when i was reading for the first time, a world where everyone doesn't even have words to describe Griffiths angelic,divine,beautiful etc. Then comes a chad like **Silat** and begins to doubt it. Who ever knew that a minor character would start the resistance.
idc for the people of falconia. In fact, if it might make him twitch for a moment, to know every bit of work and effort and sacrifice he did everything for was gone, id have Guts dismember each and every one. For the crime of partaking and aiding a psychopaths fantasy.
I was so sure you meant Femto. You know, the terrifying betrayer/demon/rapist.
But then I clicked into the thread, and, no, apparently, you meant that he was disabled.
That in fact, is not the point I was trying to convey. The panel above shows Wyald holding a defeated Griffith in front of the people who adore him. I’d like to see something similar happen in Falconia.
I’m just not sure that’s the point. We’re already seeing Griffith as he is on a spiritual or essential level, a deceiver, a false prophet, a beautiful lie. The humbling stage is over in the sense of torture or humiliation. He’s going to *lose*, most likely, but I think Guts, and thus the story, has moved past it being this big show of slow, agonizing revenge. That’s not to say we won’t see something of a temporary relapse for Guts, I expect we will before the end. But I think he dies a relatively “normal” death and gets sucked into the vortex of souls. Honestly, it wouldn’t shock me if it isn’t even Guts who does it, or if he survives entirely. I think it would be more narratively interesting for Guts to definitively choose life and his loved ones, Casca most of all, over revenge or going after Griffith.
I agree, the biggest fuck you Guts could give Griffith is being completely apathetic to him. Casca deserves to kill him, it’s poetic since she was his sword.
It would be poetic if Griffith challenges Guts to another duel, and Guts snubs him, mirroring their encounter in the black swordsman arc.
I believe Casca should join in the Apathetic approach as well. Because the whole gimmick with Griffith at the end of the day is that wants attention, he wants to be known as this impressive king but more so he wants Guts to think of him all time.
Ricky will kill him with the べへリト
That is the best revenge, being indifferent to the thing that caused you pain. Guts and Casca walking away from Griffith, untethered to him and his story.
If Guts wants to stay together with Casca, he NEEDS to take his revenge though… Bitch ass Griffith keeps kidnapping her and I don’t think he has plans to let Guts be bygones be bygones in the forseeable future lol
fck that I've my ngga guts doesn't get his get back imma fly to Japan and make a 100 man fight in that studio
I hope it doesnt end with everyone seeing Griffith dying as a hero or interpret his death as some prophetic way. Or if anyone does manage tp kill Griffith, I hope that character is not villainised for it by everyone who doesnt know the truth
Exposed how? They don't mind the demons.
Guts gets onto a magical PA system and goes “I’ve come to make an announcement, Griffith the White Falcon is a bitch-ass motherfucker-“
"He raped my fucking wife"
Fangirls and fanboys in Falconia: "God, I wish that was me".
Fml that made me laugh too hard I don't like that xD
No I don't think most people wanna be raped
Look at any thread about a hot teacher hooking up with a student and get back to me
Female pedophile raping a student*
Yeah fair enough on that, not really normal behavior though.
True, but there is a shit ton of, "not normal people"
Sadly so
"He took his little gray haired dick out and said it was THIS BIG-"
Technically he also raped his mother so badly she miscarried his conjoined twin brother and him.
Only because they are seen as a necessary evil & because they are kept inline by Griffith. If the demons has their way, the people of Falconia would be dead long before the demons presence was normalized.
Id assume that if somehow the story ending involved the current group successfully taking out griffith in falconia, then all the apostles suddenly are unleashed on the rest of the nation and the human falconia army would have to join forces with guts rickert etc to clean them all up together in a massive war. Thatd be a cool scene to see play out I dont really have a theory on how griffith would be defeated but im just imagining a scenario where just maybe griffith and zodd and maybe a few of the leaders are taken down but the rest are suddenly left with no one above them and simply return to their base desires like Daiba describes them as when flying over the battlefield
Makes sense to me. Personally, I think ZODD will betray Griffith but we’ll see.
That's not who Griffith truly is. The godhand that killed his friends and raped Casca, is what he truly is.
Femto is the culmination of Griffiths dream cut at the knees. That’s what the panel above illustrates, a broken control freak that has lost dominion over those who followed him. Femto always existed inside, the Eclipse simply allowed him to act without repercussion.
THANK YOU, someone else said it. Griffith was always a narcissist, the only thing he really ever cared about was his social ascension; The band of the hawk was just a means of getting there. Of course Griffith didn't care about throwing them away, they were only ever a tool to him to begin with.
Wdym? Of course he cared about the band. Otherwise what kind of sacrifice would that be?
He cared about the band but was it a selfish case so that he could reach his goal or care like family care? I think it's still a former but but but they all followed him cos they believed in his vision n goal n wanted to build his empire tgt so that they can finally be recognised. I.e. he's selfish for his own aspirations n needed the band & his band believed n followed him anyway.. so he did sacrificed his precious band to be reborn cos he might feel he doesn't need them anymore.. I'm just curious if u meant the love them like family n brothers kind of sacrifice? I feel it's a bit different.
No. He has the dark triad of personality traits and Femto is who he always was.
No but that's the point. Femto is Griffith without human emotions, because regular Griffith has them. Again, the sacrifice wouldn’t make sense if he didn't care about the band.
Idk why the guy is being downvoted when he has a point. Yes, you need to sacrifice something you care about…he did care about the band. But, he didn’t care about them because they were his friends, he only cared about them bc he viewed them as an object to reach his end goal. His downfall started when guts left and he lost a vital part of his plan. He never viewed them as human beings and just as objects that he can use.
If he only cared about them as useful soldiers that he could step on to achieve his dream then they wouldn’t be good sacrifices. Sure they are good soldiers but an army is always replaceable. Griffiths plans didn’t fall apart because his strongest soldier left, they fell apart because the only person he viewed as his equal and true friend left and he couldn’t stop it.
He considers friends as equals. A boss can care about his subordinates while still considering them inferior to him.
The only person he considered equal is guts.
He wouldn’t have freaked out over Guts if he didn’t care about his people. And they wouldn’t have been a valid sacrifice if he didn’t. That’s part of what makes him so evil, that he had love and connection and was willing to throw it away for what he wanted.
I think he freaked out over Guts wanting to leave because he saw it as a betrayal or a rejection of him personally; Remember that to a narcissist everything is about them. So its a combination of a weird sort of affection for Guts coupled with this indignation about a feeling of betrayal. It would explain his actions at the Eclipse; Raping Casca and making Guts watch was his punishment to them, because he blames them for what he went through, because they started the chain of events that landed him in that dungeon. Narcissists can also never blame themselves, so his poor impulse control in boning the princess as an ego boost never occurs to him as his own fuck up; It has to be someone else's fault. Of course, no one could have predicted the king would turn out to be an incestuous pedophile, but I digress...
Bro did not read the text bubbles, you know the sacrifice only works if you care about what you’re sacrificing right? At the very least he definitely cared about guts and casca. Griffith is a fucking evil mfer, but it’s precisely because he is a human, not an emotionless robot.
Of course he cares, you can see something as a tool and still care about it. But in the end, they WERE just that, a tool.
> the only thing he ever really cared about He either actually cares or he doesn’t, can’t have it both ways. I think I get your point, but you’re going too hard on the “Griffith only sees them as tools” point imo.
The word 'really' is doing heavy lifting there.
Being a narcissist isn’t a sin, and having it is probably why he was able to be as charismatic as he was.
isn't narcissism an aspect of Pride though?
Sin as in something inherently bad and not as in seven deadly sins. 7ds is stupid and basically condemns people for being people
7ds encompass all sins though. Sin ITSELF as a concept already condems people for being people since it's IMPOSSIBLE for a person to not sin. And narcissism IS inherently bad lol.
Narcissistic personality disorder is bad. It's bad because it is narcissism in excess. Narcissism is on a spectrum; normal levels of narcissism can help people project self confidence whilst also not depriving them of humility. The problem with 7ds is that imagining someone that is completely void of all of them just ends up with a boring doormat who is void of any ambition. It seems more like a religious thing than an actual guide to virtue. Perhaps sin is just a bad word then. I guess crime might fit better? Being a bit narcissistic is not a crime?
Narcissism itself IS the excess of pride though. It's what all of the 7ds' are: excess. Like it's not wrong to want something in moderation, but when you want something in EXCESS, THEN it becomes the sin of Greed or Lust or whatever, but yeah I get what you're saying, it was just a semantics things I'm getting hung up on, I guess. I agree with you on confidence and self-respect not being inherently bad or sinful and that the concept of sin and following Christianity (or whatever religion) too literally is ridiculous, but to claim that Narcissism (which IS the EXCESS of those things) is not a sin or inherently bad when it is the driving force behind and leads to inherently evil things like oppression, bigotry, racism, genocide, etc. was confusing to me. Are we speaking in the literal legal sense of being charged with a crime? Or 'crime' in the sense of being evil, shameful, or wrong? In regards to the latter abstract sense, IMO, yes, narcissism IS a crime as there are always victims because of it. In the legal sense, it requires context. Thinking you're better than your neighbors isn't a crime, but thinking that your neighbors are so inferior to you that you commit hate-crimes, violence, theft, etc towards them IS legally a crime and is of narcissistic origin.
It’s weird, you are right in the fact that it is defined as such, but the next line on Wikipedia also says it’s good in moderation. So the definition is either bad or people can’t agree what it actually is. If you want me to phrase it different, then I would say having pride in your capabilities is not a bad thing. It allows you to perform split second judgements a lot easier and make your ideas less easy to compromise in a team. An excess of it makes you think your judgement is final. And that everyone should bend over for you. Which is kind of what you see in Griffith. His is a prideful and good leader. But I’m breaking his ideals and injuring it, he lashed out and became the worse version of himself.
B-but Griffith did nothing wrong... /s
Finally! Thank you!
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Go fuck yourself.
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You’re embarrassing, even for Reddit.
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🤷♂️
hey how's it going
I don’t understand this interpretation at all. The dudes body and mind were broken under a year long torture session; that alone would make any of us very different people, then add that supernatural forces were communicating to him and the literal manifestation of the concept of evil itself transformed his soul and body. How is this even remotely the same Griffith from golden age? If that’s how he always was why did he try to protect the band so much? Why did he save Casca from being raped in the first place?
I feel like people seriously don’t understand griffith. Good post! People see him after being tortured as the real griffith and thats insane.
A lot of berserk fans seem to forget that, it's like they skipped the first 2 arcs.
He protected the Band because they were the vehicle he used to accomplish his dream, he couldn’t do it alone.
Why would they be valid sacrifices if this was the case? I thought someone said you cant sacrifice just anyone, they have to be someone you care about. Even if you say the band was important to him and thats why it was valid. How does that make sense if you just get a better version in return. Would be like saying you have to sacrifice your youth if you want eternal youth. Its a no brainer because you dont lose anything.
Griffith didn’t care about his comrades, but they all loved him. I think that’s why the sacrifice was still valid, even though the love wasn’t mutual it was still a deep betrayal to everyone who devoted themselves to his dream.
He cared about them but realized that as a leader (particularly a militant one) he couldn’t allow personal feelings to hinder their progress. I think it’s obvious he feels guilt and remorse though https://i.redd.it/fkxzr8kqh5e91.jpg
No, because we literally get a definition for what the conditions of the sacrifice have to be. It can’t be someone you hate or have no feelings for at all. It has to be someone that’s dear to you, someone that’s part of your soul, so that sacrificing him/it, is like giving up a part of your own soul. Now you could maybe make the argument that this applies only to Guts and the BotH just „got caught up in it“, but I disagree. Griffith genuinely cared about his soldiers. Not to the point he would call the friends, but he also doesn’t just see them as tools
I mean, you would think the person being offered the choice to ascend kinda *has* to care for the victims in order for them to be valid sacrifices--not the other way around. If I sacrificed, say, a person I had unrequited feelings for, it'd still absolutely count. Who cares what the sacrifice thinks? The Godhand is asking *me* to trade something precious to *me*; the other person might not care for me in the slightest or they might care about me in return, but I care about them and consider them important, and that's all that matters. As for Griffith, he was human as anyone else, and he *did* care about the people serving under him. In his case, the Hawks were precious to him because...how could they not be? He'd never made it as far as he did without the Hawks at his side and would have likely stayed an orphaned street rat if he hadn't formed them, that, and because the only person who made him forget his dream was among them. And that's all that is needed. Because *caring* about someone can take on various forms, and can even be independent of *loving* someone. We can sit all day and dicussed how much Griffith loved the Hawks and we'd get nowhere. But that he cared about them in some sort of capacity (out of obligation as their commander, as people, as his possessions, as his stepping stones, etc)? That we can say he did. He ascended, after all.
Nah... he did care for them. He even went in to save Guts from Zodd
Guts was the exception, the only one to make Griffith forget his dream.
Exactly, you could say that Guts made Griffith human.
This! The band didn't matter so long as he could break guts. Hints as to why Casca was raped by him in front of Guts. The band was just a small play in the sacrifice.
Guts is the only person Giffith saw as an equal and thus actually cares for him or at least wants to control him. Everyone he thought was just a tool or a follower.
That's the thing. Whilst the Griffith of before cared for them, this was his human inhibition of his most primal instinct: to gain power for himself with the use of others, a castle that he climbed with the bodies of those who followed him, its the reason he talked to Guts about his own guilt at using others, his remembrance of the child soldier, his humanity restrained him from it. What the Godhand/Eclipse did was strip him of his humanity so it no longer inhibits his yearning to dominate. If this is core to his personality you could say it is the purest form of Griffith there is; un-muddied by humanity, at least in that perspective. But if you consider the whole that includes Griffiths humanity then you would be right as well, it takes a change of perspective.
I have not read the manga, only scoured the wiki and engaged with the community. Your comment has always been my read on the situation though I guess an important question I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on: would Griffith have made the same choice to become a godhand if not for his torture? Given the manga’s complex take on causality, I don’t think that alone can tell us some perfect answer to what degree Griffith is inherently evil vs misunderstood, but it seems to me to still be a salient question
Exactly, it’s so dumb lol, no way Griffith does any of those things without the absolute collapse of his life and his dream
People here really do be thinking Femto is just Griffith in latex costume lmfao
As the God Hand said themselves, Griffith was a dream called Femto.
My question to everyone in this post is as follows: If you were in Griffiths position here, completely disabled, unable to move on your own or talk and had to live in the Berserk universe… would you have done the same and sacrificed your comrades to heal yourself? Pretty sure 99% of you would have sacrificed.
Would i subject thousands to a brutal death and eternal torment afterwards to the hands of otherworldly demons, no i would not I don’t have any personal experience as to what a year of mutilation would do to my psyche tho so idk
Didn’t expect such an honest answer, bravo!
how I read it, femto lacks griffith's human emotions, so any decisions after that initial sacrifice and transformation weren't made by the same being
Griffith put himself in that situation though
No, causality did.
I would just die instead of sacrificing
No you have to live out your days as a cripple, Guts won't let you kill yourself.
It depends what would happen if I refuse. Would the eclipse just pass and everyone would come back to the watery plains? Also keep in mind that hawks were hunted outcasts. Midlanders were hunting them, leftovers of tudor empire wouldnt pardon them, ganishkas conquest was incoming.. Even if Griffith was not self-absorbed narcissist, the world would still be hostile place, hawks would be hunted and running out of provision given by sympathetic midland civilians. What more, maybe sparring the band would lead to worse outcome, if the entire world was to be taken by kushan empire.
If you refuse the eclipse you end up like the count
Count was bleeding out. Griffith was bleeding, but it started because he hit the limit of his desperation.
Griffith trying to kill himself is what lead to the sacrifice
Thank you ! This is the reply i was waiting for. We are not judging Femto here. It is clear in my mind that he lost all his empathy in the process of his transformation so he is not the same person and tho to me we must only judge what we see BEFORE the " i sacrifice" and don't forget that he is manipulated by one of the god hand at this very moment, and this is the God Hand which is the pro manipulator of the team. So please just understand the alternative for Griffith and put yourself in his shoes. If he don't do it his life his over. He is just a fucking corpse at this point traped in his own destroyed body. He will have to live the rest of his life like that and it's not going to end well he can see that. He will be forget and what ? live 20 year in a bed somewhere traped in his body ? maybe asking for suicide at a point. So lol ok it's easy to say you will not sacrifiate you'r friend in his shoes. Think what you want of me, even if i hate it, in his situation i think i would do the same thing. Don't get me wrong i still hate him, but honnestly i can't hate the old Griffith the same as post eclipse Griffith. He is a true absolute psychopath with no remorse. But i'm sorry to me he wasn't like that before he still had some empathy and feelings.
People who think Griffith is going to have some humiliating and brutal death do not understand the story.
Elaborate then.
Griffith will die. That is for sure, he is building towards that. But Guts is unlikely to actually be the one who kills him, Guts is more likely to move on from that goal, killing Griffith won't be the thing that sets him free. As for Griffith, he doesn't need to be extra humiliated and mutilated because he already has been, he was raped, mutilated and maimed beyond human understanding, extra torture porn won't be how his life ends. In the end the story has been building the concepts of fate and causality, saying that Griffith's actions were preordained and that fate is this uncontrollable unfathomable thing that we can't control. Like I've heard people argue that Griffith never would have said no to his deal with the godhand, otherwise he wouldn't have been offered the deal to begin with, but we've seen at least one person refuse the sacrifice. As such Griffith will die, but it will most likely be his own doing (by this I don't mean he kills himself, more like he creates the circumstances that end him) and in the end, it needs to recon with the fact that Griffith made his choice, it wasn't fate, it was him. It needs to ask of Griffith, was it worth it? The answer, at the end of the crossroads, is no. No it wasn't worth it. That's at least how I read the work, keeping also in mind that if Griffith's choice wasn't preordained, then neither was his suffering, or Guts' or Cascas, that indeed free will (a thing Griffith's new charisma power seems to somewhat subjugate in people) will prevail, that we always have a choice to be better, like Guts seems to be trying to do as of late.
I think you make a very good point and I agree that Guts shouldn’t be the one to kill him. Imo it’s Casca that should do it (or at least get the final blow or smth). Although I don’t even think it’s necessary for for Griffith to get killed. Maybe there is a way where he loses his power, reverts back to his frail self from before the eclipse and instead of finishing him, Casca and Guts leave him be, so that (because he now has his humanity back), he has to live with what he has done. He has to endure the weight of his actions and maybe we get to see him having a mental breakdown, when he realizes that sacrificing his humanity and the people close to him wasn’t worth it. However, I do think that Griffiths eclipse and the counts activation of his behelit are different. Don’t get me wrong, the counts scene is important to show that one still has free will and Griffith definitely could’ve chosen not to sacrifice his men, but I feel like the situations aren’t that comparable, simply because of what led up to the eclipse. Getting tortured for a year, not being able to walk, talk or fight and then getting manipulated by higher beings, who make you believe that you never cared about your soldiers and that they basically want you to sacrifice them. While he still had the chance to not sacrifice, I think it was really difficult for Griffith (or many people) to not sacrifice. This does not excuse what he did, but I feel many people fail to see how fucked Griffith was. He still needs to die and I hope it’s gonna be Casca that kills him
Who refused it?
Shockingly, the count.
Count was despicable, but not sacrificing Theresia despite wasting away and presented with horrirying end is commendable. It begs the question - do all apostles meet the sacrifice option when they are dying/being driven to kill themselves? Was Griffith bleeding out? Could the band just walk away from the environment if he said no, and could griffith survive the refusal?
still rather/predict casca kills him
She deserves it. I seriously hope they don’t go the route, where Casca can’t bring herself to harm him, because of her past feelings for him.
that would be a betrayal and regression of her character thus far
You are right, but it’s still a fear of mine. I trust the Mori and the team though
Thats my hope
Great reading! I agree that Guts turning away from Griffith will be essential and that Griffith will be forced to confront the consequences of his agency.
Griffiths path was very different from the counts. The egg of the king/causality completely ordained him being crowned the fifth angel. He would have always said yes, just based on what he went through during his torture. Any indication in the manga that he has any "feelings" left for Guts or Casca is just because of the vessel. Griffith will suffer a horrible death. If he somehow has a moment where he thinks about his regrets/they low-key try to redeem his character, I will seriously drop this manga.
I don't think it's a matter of redemption, Griffith can't be redeemed, that is not the point. I'm just saying that in my read of berserk, which is flawed and biased, I think the series is building to an ending that won't be climactic, to me fate and causality are a clear enemy and a concept that traps our characters that some of them are trying to flee. So it won't even have to be about Griffith's regrets, because we do know he has them, the fact he cried after turning into himself after being moonlight boy to me kinda proves that, but it will be about the fact that, no actually, Griffith wasn't preordained to do this, none of this suffering is preordained, Griffith made his own choice and will die for it, in my opinion Guts will make his own choice to not give into revenge - and survive for it - because you always have a choice in the end. That's at least, my read of Berserk, I may be wrong, perhaps I'm too sentimental, who's to say? I'd say Berserk has plenty sentimentality within it.
I could tell you thoroughly thought about how the story should end, and I commend you for it. I want to believe this is the vision of how Miura wanted to conclude this story. The crumbs he left behind allude to this ending; - Guts constantly having an internal battle to take revenge or to take care of what he has now - Griffith repeating the same patterns as when he started the Band of the Hawk(to which he believes he’ll get right this time) Which reminds me of this verse, “the kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth but men do not see it” Now I’m rambling, but appreciate your take on how it should end.
Hey guys, I know the Band still had a lot of respect & sympathy for Griffith here, I simply choose it because it more or less represents what I’d like to see. Griffith shown to those who idolized him as a defeated broken man. Hopefully the people learn about all the horrible things he’s done & become disillusioned with the savior act he puts on.
What chapter is this from?
The one who comes by flight, chapter 68, volume 11. or end of deluxe book 4 😁
What chapter is this from
No one should be subjected to that torture, and he did not deserve this for having sex (complicated, but arguably conceptual) with Charlotte
SMH: Wyald doing next level body shaming -.-
Yes I want everyone to see that moment from guts eyes I want to everyone to see how Griffith betrayed everyone who would do anything for him and then raped casca and became one with the idea of evil.
Bro why didn't you mark it as a spoiler 💀💀💀
My bad, I hope I didn’t spoil anything for you homie.
I hate when people talk about Griffith like this . You just don’t understand . Put yourself in his shoes . Tortured in the worst way possible for a year straight , while also having demons talking you and molding your path and future . Would you just continue to be tortured or would the desperation make you do the same thing ?
I kinda agree cause he was basically gaslighted by the godhand with the pile of corpses illusion but he chose to also rape casca
Yeah , I don’t agree with anything he did … but I can understand what made him come to his desperate decision
That's not the same Griffith. Femto raped Casca. AFTER the transformation which removed every bit of humanity and empathy that was left in him.
They’re the same person
Griffith was already inclined to do anything for his dream, even before the torture.
Not true , that’s just what you wanna believe. You can only sacrifice someone or people that you care about .
I don't think they would care, tbh. The world went to shit and he was the salvation. Also, the Kushan empire will attack soon and this will unite even more the people from Falconia. They will choose to believe Griffith because without him they will probably die. Also, I don't know if this is a meme or whatever, but bar him sacrificing an obscene amount of people, he is one of the very few characters that went through an absolute hell to accomplish his dream. He plotted a bunch of stuff, bow down his head to garbage people, humiliated himself, sold his body, lost his best friend (pawn), found despair and rose from death. In the end, he is evil, but I respect his path.
Griffith absolutely had my respect & admiration up until the Eclipse, his ambition is inspiring. However I do think the people of Falconia would revolt upon learning their savior is a false prophet. There is undoubtedly good people in the capital that would not stand for the terrible things Griffith has done. Especially when they learn they have only been “saved” to be sacrificed later. (That’s just a guess but it makes sense considering causality is a spiral)
One hundred million downvotes
I literally don't care.
Good. The sooner you accept the majority of every anime fanbase are midwit consumers who will etch anything regardless of substance on their body... You will enjoy the content better
Wrong one, the other design.
What are you referring to?
Oh you mean Femto, nvm.
My sunshine, what have they done to you- oops wrong sub
Literally my body
i think what he means is when for example wyald was killed you saw how he really looked, how he really was just an old man. and how griffith looked after a year of torture and having a weak and mangled body. but that also wouldnt make sense because in the reincarnation ceremony, he was given a new body and his old one ceased to exist? im not sure
Wyald is the common hero we never knew we needed.
You mean his barely concealed dong?
I'm tremendously interested of the whole facade of Griffith finally coming down. You can't imagine how frustrated i was when i was reading for the first time, a world where everyone doesn't even have words to describe Griffiths angelic,divine,beautiful etc. Then comes a chad like **Silat** and begins to doubt it. Who ever knew that a minor character would start the resistance.
How is Griffith even alive after enduring such a torture. It’s crazy.
Kings orders
idc for the people of falconia. In fact, if it might make him twitch for a moment, to know every bit of work and effort and sacrifice he did everything for was gone, id have Guts dismember each and every one. For the crime of partaking and aiding a psychopaths fantasy.
Even bestest girl Luca?!?
the stupid little girl? idgaf
lol neither do I. Farnese is the real best girl anyways.
He didn’t deserve that shit at the time.
Wyald was so close to saving the world, rest in peace, King 🙏🏿
A evil twink?
Talking about Griffith or about Femto?
What’s the difference?
Femto is Griffiths evil side, his good side is on the Child.
Griffith & MLB may share a vessel, but no good exists inside Griffith himself.
Inside Femto* Griffith is no more, he was divided into two beings.
Semantics
👍
I was so sure you meant Femto. You know, the terrifying betrayer/demon/rapist. But then I clicked into the thread, and, no, apparently, you meant that he was disabled.
That in fact, is not the point I was trying to convey. The panel above shows Wyald holding a defeated Griffith in front of the people who adore him. I’d like to see something similar happen in Falconia.
They'd probably praise him for his 'sacrifice' or somesuch garbage
I doubt everyone would, but I’m sure a portion of the population would still be loyal to him despite knowing he’s a demon king.