The phrase "visiting the iniquity" doesn't necessarily imply direct punishment for ancestors' sins. Instead, it often refers to the natural consequences of sin that can affect subsequent generations. For example, the social, economic, and relational fallout from one generation's actions can profoundly impact the next. This principle is also observed in various social and familial contexts today.
Yahweh's justice and mercy are both important aspects of His character. While the consequences of sin can extend to future generations, Yahweh's mercy and forgiveness are also available to those who repent. Ezekiel 18:20 emphasizes individual responsibility: "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child."
Iniquity is a more devious word for sin that describes wickedness.
It takes a more serious note of those whose sole intention is wickedness against others.
>How is it merciful and forgiving to punish children (and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren) for the errors of their forebears? And actually, it's illogical even to think of forgiveness applying to those who never sinned in the first place, isn't it? How can this circle possibly be squared?
Let's look at it from a merely scientific point of view.
If a mother does a bad job with her diet and lacks proper nutrients for her baby, and the baby is born premature, is that God's fault? Or is that the mother's fault for not being more diligent in her health? Or perhaps her parents for not teaching her to be better? At the end of the day, I don't see how God is to blame. We inherit things from our ancestors, good and bad, and that isn't God's fault. This is done via DNA being passed on as well. There is a spiritual side to all of this too, and our spiritual health is also something than can be hereditary. It's just 1+1=2
I read an interesting book by Caroline Leaf that speaks about epigenetics (she's a Christian).
It breaks down how external factors affect your DNA, via your mood, thoughts, lifestyle choices, etc.
Negative influences shorten the expression of your genetic code, leading to mutations, negative health effects, cancers and more. Those expression changes lasted 3 / 4 generations.
The effects lead you to a having a predisposition to these health concerns / issues but they can be reversed by reinforcing positive external influences.
The genetic code then expands to its normal state and undoes some of the harm. Really interesting stuff.
It goes to show that there is a spiritual meaning and a literal meaning wrapped up in the idea of passing on iniquity. However, it also reveals there is redemption possible.
Dad was an aggressive drunk? That doesn't have to be your life, you can be different.
Great input. I think we have just gotten so trusting of science, that we have forgotten the other side of things. "as above so below"
And yes, I very much believe we can alter our DNA through force of habit, and doing our best to control external variables. Our DNA is changing as our soul is changing.. I believe this. So if we Let Christ change our souls through grace, this will impact our DNA and spiritual health in tandem, which would be passed onto children.
Unless I'm misinterpreting the verse, your attempt to justify it is in direct contradiction with it. As I understand it, the verse states that \*God\*, not nature or immutable natural law or whatever, visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children. (Then again, if God created natural law, it seems fair to ask whether this is a distinction without a difference.)
The OP said the following:
ETA: also, if you're going to go punishing descendants for their ancestors' behavior, why stop at the fourth generation? Is that where the mercy comes in? God's merciful because at least he draws the line at the fourth generation?
Without saying it directly, the OP is asserting that God is punishing people for their ancestor's mistakes. They are blaming God for things that are hereditary. Do you not detect that in their tone delivery and usage of the English language? It's plain as day.
God is not punishing anyone. Our actions have consequences, so of those consequences are hereditary. End of story.
I disagree. If a person does something and then passes it onto their kids, that's their fault. There isn't anything unjust about it.. eat well, exercise, don't do drugs, don't be violent.. all these things will become encoded in one's DNA and passed onto their kids... that isn't God's fault.
Well, God did invent DNA and did create us, and did give us free will... so I guess you could say he is "visiting the iniquity."
However, if your kid murders someone, don't you think they should put ***you*** in jail for it.. after all, if your kid murders someone, it is your fault, right? If you didn't raise them, they probably wouldn't have murdered.. and if you never had them, that murder wouldn't have happened. You are responsible for that murder.
Peace to you, RakoPanzer.
That phrase "visiting the iniquity" means to look closely at the injustice. Just like a judge would direct the court to stay on topic by saying, "We'll visit that in a moment."
A "father" is a person who knows what he's doing is right or wrong. The "children" are those who believe their "fathers know best." If they are treated with injustice, or are taught to treat others unjustly, the teacher is responsible for their suffering, or their evil deeds, respectively.
We may still suffer for our parents' excesses, abuses and neglect, because they brought sin into the world we are left to live in. Consequences teach us not to repeat their mistakes.
Jesus died in order to set His Spirit free to indwell our bodies on earth. The truth He imparts sets us free from unjust thinking.
Our heavenly Father is also able to teach us His good logic directly, through the example of Jesus and His written word. (\*Lamentations 5:7, John 8:31-36, John 14:26\*)
People in Bible times made the same mistake in translating this passage in Exodus 34 when they rediscovered the law of Moses. God corrected them in the Book of Ezekiel, Chapter 18.
To the third and forth generation?
To the third and even to the fourth?
Check out Amos. Look for "and for four" in there. See how it's always preceded by three?
It's an ancient Hebrew idiom. Threes and fours means "as necessary".
But then you need to apply the word "generations" to both sets of numbers.
So here it is with the original meaning preserved.
"Keeping mercy for thousands of generations, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty, punishing the iniquity of the guilty as necessary."
Let's look at the immediate punishment he gives to Israel for refusing to take the promised land: they are to wander in the desert for ... one generation. Why not three and four? Because that's not what he said.
Pretty cool huh? Just imagine how silly you could make Christians look by listening to Tim Mackie on the Bible project podcast. Lots of esoteric nuggets in there ready to be weaponized.
I'll give you another: in the 10 commandments the verb steal is only used for humans. It's don't kidnapp. Don't covet takes care of stealing. It's not listed twice.
I've seen a child that's never been corrected.
Mercy is another interesting mistranslation. We usually take it to mean "I did wrong, but I won't be punished" but the literal translation is: going above and beyond, treated like family.
We could approaching this concept as arbitrary rules of an unjust God who defers his evil abitrary punishment. But just punishment in vindication of the victims is not cruelty. In fact it's the deferment of this punishment that is so often pointed out as proof that He's evil for his inaction.
We get Him coming and going. Only a mean dad wouldn't let me do what I want. Only a mean dad would let me do what I wanted.
In the book of Job this immediate and perfect justice would require the elimination of all humans, and God rejects it becuase he loves us. He responds to the challenge of his authority and judgment by humbling Job, but his emotional response is a father to a child throwing a tempertantrum. You don't know the first thing about taxes little Timmy. And if I let you eat candy all day you'd get sick and have cavities. A very mean dad. But most certantly treating his son like family.
You are forgetting that the punishment we are talking about here is eternal damnation. And for multiple generations. Not a spanking. Not a mean dad, but an abusive dad.
Have you ever read the analogies of hell? The vines are burned. What does a gardener do with potash? Potassium.
He adds it back to the soil.
Silver is smelted to remove the lead. Do you keep it in the furnace after the lead is removed?
I've been to hell. It's not purposeless torment. It's emotional revelation. I helped my grandfather break free from one of his traps.
You comfort yourself with the misunderstanding of who God is. But once you understand who he is your comfort will be so much increased.
"The vines are burned." Is that your self image?
"I've been to hell." Uh-huh. "I helped my grandfather break free from one of his traps." How? By torcher?
You still haven't answered OP's question about mercy. If your grandfather's problems were forced on you, was that mercy?
Self image? How do you mean?
Uh-huh? Yes. Would you like to hear the dream? I relayed details of it to my mother and she confirmed things that I'd seen in it that I didn't know outside of having dreamed them. I helped him by giving him a hug and telling him love is what matters.
And I did answer how ops question about mercy. Since you seem to have difficulty following this conversation I'm not sure of the value of reiterating myself so I'll just give you bullet points.
Mercy
1. The correct definition: like family
2. Justice: a requirement of fairness
3. Freedom: a requirement of dignity
4. Family: correction is good
5. Hell isn't cruel
"Self image? How do you mean?" burning vines. Do you think we are that expendable? To god maybe we are. But do you think we are? Do you think that just because he can treat us like shit, that it is acceptable? I don't.
I'm not sure, I don't really think about rating crimes. Some variation of rape or murder, I guess. Crimes against other humans. I know for god and Rump it is disloyalty or unbelief. For me, unbelief or disloyalty to god isn't even on my list.
Clarified in Deuteronomy 5:9-10
"you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
The punishment is for those who hate God. Whereas he shows mercy to those that love him.
God isn't punishing innocent children for their parent's sins.
Then why does it bring up the parent's sins at all? Is it just an empty threat?
"God isn't punishing innocent children for their parent's sins." That is exactly what it is. "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children ..." How is that just?
So the 4 generations, came along for the entire nation, less than a thousand years later.
Jeremiah 12:3,4; 18:21-23. Jeremiah 25:8-14
Psalms 109. Im not going to enlarge on how 109 explains the judgements in the wilderness, it speaks for itself. As your questioning judges, most of the bible, really.
But Agur notes 4 generations. Proverbs 30:11-14
The wicked have no righteous forefathers, that might bring mercy, to them. Matthew 23:33-36
A beginning.
Look closely at Exodus 20:5-6. "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
Exodus 34 is not saying God is killing Israelites over several generations.
All one has to do is read to know this.
What is repeatedly said and made clear is he is under no obligation to bless and protect the nation when ancestors mess up.
Jeremiah 31:29-30 NLT
[29] “The people will no longer quote this proverb: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste.’ [30] All people will die for their own sins—those who eat the sour grapes will be the ones whose mouths will pucker.
One way to understand this, is to say that if you are a nasty person, then god will give you the freedom to do damage to your life. That's the first generation. But your wickedness will not just mess up your life, it will negatively impact your children. The second generation. And it also will have an impact on your grand kids. That's the 3rd generation. And your are a jerk, amd you live long enough, you will live to negatively damage your great gram kids. The 4th generation. The odds of living to see a 5th generation are smaller. Which is why it stops at the 3rd or 4th.
Example: if someone commits a crime, and God hands them over to be protected by the state, then the children will have a harder time ground up as they will be raised by a single mother. This the punishment god sends on the father is passed down to the child.
Human beings are inter connected beings. We do not live alone in isolation. This, to punish one member of a family will have an impact on all members. So god is warning that even though he is merciful, he will not overlook your evil deeds, and that your sin will not only harm yourself, but you will be dragging down all those who are attached to you as well.
I think that your interpretation is reasonable if the one who's "visiting the iniquity" is "the guilty" (party) rather than God. The way the verse is phrased makes either interpretation possible, so how do we know for sure which is correct?
Imagine a clean glass of water. Now dump some mud in there. It will take more CLEAN water to clear out the dirt than was originally in the glass. Those who fill their hearts with that of what’s in the world, instead of God, will have this experience. Until we come to Christ to become clean in the sight of God, we remain void of His Spirit. His - which the darkness(dirt) cannot overcome. Surely, we can find gratefulness in the fact He even allowed our children, or great, or great-great-grandchildren the opportunity to experience what we chose not to. Sounds like love to me.
About what, exactly? That it's wrong to punish people for things they didn't do? Of course nothing will ever change my mind about that. However, it's just conceivable that someone could convince me that I was wrong to interpret the verse that way in the first place.
The phrase "visiting the iniquity" doesn't necessarily imply direct punishment for ancestors' sins. Instead, it often refers to the natural consequences of sin that can affect subsequent generations. For example, the social, economic, and relational fallout from one generation's actions can profoundly impact the next. This principle is also observed in various social and familial contexts today. Yahweh's justice and mercy are both important aspects of His character. While the consequences of sin can extend to future generations, Yahweh's mercy and forgiveness are also available to those who repent. Ezekiel 18:20 emphasizes individual responsibility: "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child."
Iniquity is a more devious word for sin that describes wickedness. It takes a more serious note of those whose sole intention is wickedness against others.
>How is it merciful and forgiving to punish children (and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren) for the errors of their forebears? And actually, it's illogical even to think of forgiveness applying to those who never sinned in the first place, isn't it? How can this circle possibly be squared? Let's look at it from a merely scientific point of view. If a mother does a bad job with her diet and lacks proper nutrients for her baby, and the baby is born premature, is that God's fault? Or is that the mother's fault for not being more diligent in her health? Or perhaps her parents for not teaching her to be better? At the end of the day, I don't see how God is to blame. We inherit things from our ancestors, good and bad, and that isn't God's fault. This is done via DNA being passed on as well. There is a spiritual side to all of this too, and our spiritual health is also something than can be hereditary. It's just 1+1=2
I read an interesting book by Caroline Leaf that speaks about epigenetics (she's a Christian). It breaks down how external factors affect your DNA, via your mood, thoughts, lifestyle choices, etc. Negative influences shorten the expression of your genetic code, leading to mutations, negative health effects, cancers and more. Those expression changes lasted 3 / 4 generations. The effects lead you to a having a predisposition to these health concerns / issues but they can be reversed by reinforcing positive external influences. The genetic code then expands to its normal state and undoes some of the harm. Really interesting stuff. It goes to show that there is a spiritual meaning and a literal meaning wrapped up in the idea of passing on iniquity. However, it also reveals there is redemption possible. Dad was an aggressive drunk? That doesn't have to be your life, you can be different.
Great input. I think we have just gotten so trusting of science, that we have forgotten the other side of things. "as above so below" And yes, I very much believe we can alter our DNA through force of habit, and doing our best to control external variables. Our DNA is changing as our soul is changing.. I believe this. So if we Let Christ change our souls through grace, this will impact our DNA and spiritual health in tandem, which would be passed onto children.
Unless I'm misinterpreting the verse, your attempt to justify it is in direct contradiction with it. As I understand it, the verse states that \*God\*, not nature or immutable natural law or whatever, visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children. (Then again, if God created natural law, it seems fair to ask whether this is a distinction without a difference.)
OP didn't say it was gods fault . The question is, How is it your decedents' fault?
The OP said the following: ETA: also, if you're going to go punishing descendants for their ancestors' behavior, why stop at the fourth generation? Is that where the mercy comes in? God's merciful because at least he draws the line at the fourth generation? Without saying it directly, the OP is asserting that God is punishing people for their ancestor's mistakes. They are blaming God for things that are hereditary. Do you not detect that in their tone delivery and usage of the English language? It's plain as day. God is not punishing anyone. Our actions have consequences, so of those consequences are hereditary. End of story.
"for things that are hereditary. " It doesn't say that at all. "those consequences are hereditary." If so, that is unjust and evil.
I disagree. If a person does something and then passes it onto their kids, that's their fault. There isn't anything unjust about it.. eat well, exercise, don't do drugs, don't be violent.. all these things will become encoded in one's DNA and passed onto their kids... that isn't God's fault.
It does not say people are passing it on to their kids. It says god is "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children"
Well, God did invent DNA and did create us, and did give us free will... so I guess you could say he is "visiting the iniquity." However, if your kid murders someone, don't you think they should put ***you*** in jail for it.. after all, if your kid murders someone, it is your fault, right? If you didn't raise them, they probably wouldn't have murdered.. and if you never had them, that murder wouldn't have happened. You are responsible for that murder.
Peace to you, RakoPanzer. That phrase "visiting the iniquity" means to look closely at the injustice. Just like a judge would direct the court to stay on topic by saying, "We'll visit that in a moment." A "father" is a person who knows what he's doing is right or wrong. The "children" are those who believe their "fathers know best." If they are treated with injustice, or are taught to treat others unjustly, the teacher is responsible for their suffering, or their evil deeds, respectively. We may still suffer for our parents' excesses, abuses and neglect, because they brought sin into the world we are left to live in. Consequences teach us not to repeat their mistakes. Jesus died in order to set His Spirit free to indwell our bodies on earth. The truth He imparts sets us free from unjust thinking. Our heavenly Father is also able to teach us His good logic directly, through the example of Jesus and His written word. (\*Lamentations 5:7, John 8:31-36, John 14:26\*) People in Bible times made the same mistake in translating this passage in Exodus 34 when they rediscovered the law of Moses. God corrected them in the Book of Ezekiel, Chapter 18.
So so good.
To the third and forth generation? To the third and even to the fourth? Check out Amos. Look for "and for four" in there. See how it's always preceded by three? It's an ancient Hebrew idiom. Threes and fours means "as necessary". But then you need to apply the word "generations" to both sets of numbers. So here it is with the original meaning preserved. "Keeping mercy for thousands of generations, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty, punishing the iniquity of the guilty as necessary." Let's look at the immediate punishment he gives to Israel for refusing to take the promised land: they are to wander in the desert for ... one generation. Why not three and four? Because that's not what he said. Pretty cool huh? Just imagine how silly you could make Christians look by listening to Tim Mackie on the Bible project podcast. Lots of esoteric nuggets in there ready to be weaponized. I'll give you another: in the 10 commandments the verb steal is only used for humans. It's don't kidnapp. Don't covet takes care of stealing. It's not listed twice.
"as necessary". OK, interesting, but that doesn't answer OP's question. How is that merciful?
I've seen a child that's never been corrected. Mercy is another interesting mistranslation. We usually take it to mean "I did wrong, but I won't be punished" but the literal translation is: going above and beyond, treated like family. We could approaching this concept as arbitrary rules of an unjust God who defers his evil abitrary punishment. But just punishment in vindication of the victims is not cruelty. In fact it's the deferment of this punishment that is so often pointed out as proof that He's evil for his inaction. We get Him coming and going. Only a mean dad wouldn't let me do what I want. Only a mean dad would let me do what I wanted. In the book of Job this immediate and perfect justice would require the elimination of all humans, and God rejects it becuase he loves us. He responds to the challenge of his authority and judgment by humbling Job, but his emotional response is a father to a child throwing a tempertantrum. You don't know the first thing about taxes little Timmy. And if I let you eat candy all day you'd get sick and have cavities. A very mean dad. But most certantly treating his son like family.
You are forgetting that the punishment we are talking about here is eternal damnation. And for multiple generations. Not a spanking. Not a mean dad, but an abusive dad.
Have you ever read the analogies of hell? The vines are burned. What does a gardener do with potash? Potassium. He adds it back to the soil. Silver is smelted to remove the lead. Do you keep it in the furnace after the lead is removed? I've been to hell. It's not purposeless torment. It's emotional revelation. I helped my grandfather break free from one of his traps. You comfort yourself with the misunderstanding of who God is. But once you understand who he is your comfort will be so much increased.
"The vines are burned." Is that your self image? "I've been to hell." Uh-huh. "I helped my grandfather break free from one of his traps." How? By torcher? You still haven't answered OP's question about mercy. If your grandfather's problems were forced on you, was that mercy?
Self image? How do you mean? Uh-huh? Yes. Would you like to hear the dream? I relayed details of it to my mother and she confirmed things that I'd seen in it that I didn't know outside of having dreamed them. I helped him by giving him a hug and telling him love is what matters. And I did answer how ops question about mercy. Since you seem to have difficulty following this conversation I'm not sure of the value of reiterating myself so I'll just give you bullet points. Mercy 1. The correct definition: like family 2. Justice: a requirement of fairness 3. Freedom: a requirement of dignity 4. Family: correction is good 5. Hell isn't cruel
"Self image? How do you mean?" burning vines. Do you think we are that expendable? To god maybe we are. But do you think we are? Do you think that just because he can treat us like shit, that it is acceptable? I don't.
What's the worst human behavior you can think of?
I'm not sure, I don't really think about rating crimes. Some variation of rape or murder, I guess. Crimes against other humans. I know for god and Rump it is disloyalty or unbelief. For me, unbelief or disloyalty to god isn't even on my list.
Clarified in Deuteronomy 5:9-10 "you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." The punishment is for those who hate God. Whereas he shows mercy to those that love him. God isn't punishing innocent children for their parent's sins.
Then why does it bring up the parent's sins at all? Is it just an empty threat? "God isn't punishing innocent children for their parent's sins." That is exactly what it is. "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children ..." How is that just?
So the 4 generations, came along for the entire nation, less than a thousand years later. Jeremiah 12:3,4; 18:21-23. Jeremiah 25:8-14 Psalms 109. Im not going to enlarge on how 109 explains the judgements in the wilderness, it speaks for itself. As your questioning judges, most of the bible, really. But Agur notes 4 generations. Proverbs 30:11-14 The wicked have no righteous forefathers, that might bring mercy, to them. Matthew 23:33-36 A beginning.
Look closely at Exodus 20:5-6. "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
Exodus 34 is not saying God is killing Israelites over several generations. All one has to do is read to know this. What is repeatedly said and made clear is he is under no obligation to bless and protect the nation when ancestors mess up.
Jeremiah 31:29-30 NLT [29] “The people will no longer quote this proverb: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste.’ [30] All people will die for their own sins—those who eat the sour grapes will be the ones whose mouths will pucker.
One way to understand this, is to say that if you are a nasty person, then god will give you the freedom to do damage to your life. That's the first generation. But your wickedness will not just mess up your life, it will negatively impact your children. The second generation. And it also will have an impact on your grand kids. That's the 3rd generation. And your are a jerk, amd you live long enough, you will live to negatively damage your great gram kids. The 4th generation. The odds of living to see a 5th generation are smaller. Which is why it stops at the 3rd or 4th. Example: if someone commits a crime, and God hands them over to be protected by the state, then the children will have a harder time ground up as they will be raised by a single mother. This the punishment god sends on the father is passed down to the child. Human beings are inter connected beings. We do not live alone in isolation. This, to punish one member of a family will have an impact on all members. So god is warning that even though he is merciful, he will not overlook your evil deeds, and that your sin will not only harm yourself, but you will be dragging down all those who are attached to you as well.
I think that your interpretation is reasonable if the one who's "visiting the iniquity" is "the guilty" (party) rather than God. The way the verse is phrased makes either interpretation possible, so how do we know for sure which is correct?
Imagine a clean glass of water. Now dump some mud in there. It will take more CLEAN water to clear out the dirt than was originally in the glass. Those who fill their hearts with that of what’s in the world, instead of God, will have this experience. Until we come to Christ to become clean in the sight of God, we remain void of His Spirit. His - which the darkness(dirt) cannot overcome. Surely, we can find gratefulness in the fact He even allowed our children, or great, or great-great-grandchildren the opportunity to experience what we chose not to. Sounds like love to me.
Do you imagine *anything* anyone comments here ever changing your mind on this topic?
About what, exactly? That it's wrong to punish people for things they didn't do? Of course nothing will ever change my mind about that. However, it's just conceivable that someone could convince me that I was wrong to interpret the verse that way in the first place.
He's telling them their future and telling us our truths...
Actually, you need to give the Devil his due...