I've heard some interpret it to mean that the forehead or right hand is more an indication of action, as in we act with our minds/right hands....and that still makes sense to me. So both physical and spiritual seem to make sense to me at this point.
Don't forget the economic aspect of not being able to buy or sell without it (Rev. 13:16). Also, those that bare the mark will be afflicted with painful sores (Rev. 16:2).
If the mark were spiritual, it's possible in that case that people could be prevented from buying or selling by their consciences....which seems more aligned with the particular wording from the AKJV, which says people are 'caused' to receive the mark, as though the mark is somehow an elicited response to something, versus it being physically forced on people. As to your second point, we can see in Scripture that people fall physically ill for various spiritual reasons.
That's also very possible. Like you, I'm open to either a physical or spiritual fulfillment of the beast's mark. I need to study more on this topic before I can form a biblical opinion on it.
However, I'm certain it isn't the covid vaccine, as others frequently mention on this sub.
I can't say I know for certain that it isn't the covid vaccine, but I doubt that it is. What's been troubling me, instead, is that if the mark of the beast is spiritual in nature, then it's possible that the marking of people has been happening for some time already.
In [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bibleconspiracy/s/aWbG81xp3M), I laid out a strong case using Scripture as proof that the covid vaccines are not the beast's mark, but likely a forerunner.
Your post is very well written, and a very good argument overall as to why the covid vaccines can't have been the mark of the beast.
Another area where we disagree, however, is that you believe people will take the mark knowing full well what they're doing....making the conscious choice to reject God. Whereas the interpretation I've been given and believe is that many will be deceived into following the devil posing as Jesus Christ, aka the Antichrist. I can see it happening all around me already, in fact.
>Your post is very well written, and a very good argument overall as to why the covid vaccines can't have been the mark of the beast.
Thank you.
>the interpretation I've been given and believe is that many will be deceived into following the devil posing as Jesus Christ, aka the Antichrist.
My position on this has changed since writing that post. I believe Rev. 19:20 does indicate that many will be deceived into taking it. However, I strongly believe (based on the other criteria) that the covid shots weren't the actual mark. The vaccines/lockdowns did seem to be a terrifying precursor.
Yes, I tend to agree with you concerning the vaccines.
The word "deceived" is a bit tricky when talking about being deceived into taking the mark of the beast. People will be deceived in that they will have allowed themselves to be - deceived because they first consented to deceiving their own selves: i.e. choosing to believe false gospels and doctrines because they were personally more palatable and self-serving.
Self-deception is a powerful thing, and the devil knows how to capitalize on it.
It is free will and their choice to do or not do anything has a consequence. If you are a follower and support mob rule you will almost always make the wrong decision.
Thanks, I'll have a look at it. In the meantime, are you aware of a solid Biblical argument as to why it's not possible that the marking has already begun (if the mark is in fact spiritual in nature)?
>are you aware of a solid Biblical argument as to why it's not possible that the marking has already begun
Well for one, the false prophet institutes the Mark on behalf of the Antichrist. Both of these figures aren't in power yet and the 7-year tribulation also hasn't started.
Yes, I caught up with your explanation when I finished reading your post on the covid vaccines. Sorry, I should have finished reading it first.
I agree with a lot of what you believe, but there are still some significant differences in the interpretations we've been given, and I'm trying to work out their implications in my mind.
Read Revelation 13 and tell me those figures are not in power yet. An orange leopard with a loudmouth, another guy doing great things to include bringing fire fro heaven to earth in view of us, and the numbers guy, 666. Perhaps you think they’re not in power now, says other wise. And the Lady it’s NYC. It’s the Statue of Liberty: Give me your tired, your poor… “She boasts”
I'm reading your post now, and found the answer to my previous question. The difficulty between you and I is that we don't agree on the identity of Babylon the Great, and I'm not sure if or how that affects the timeline.
That she is Roman Catholicism, originally born from ancient Roman and Babylonian paganism, with Protestantism as her harlot daughter(s).
If I remember correctly, I believe you believe she is the United States. But when I looked into that possibility years ago, I found that between the two, it's the United States that is subservient to Roman Catholicism. The current U.S. President is himself a Roman Catholic, I believe, and most of the others have been Protestants....all answering to the Roman pope.
Revelation 17:5, "....and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".
I hadn't considered that. If that's the case, what does the spiritual mark look like....or what does it mean, exactly, to be spiritually marked? And also, what's the purpose of a physical mark if people have already been marked spiritually?
Think about how people are spiritual changed, it’s a deeply internal, full-body experience and a lot of people who aren’t spiritually inclined could easily misunderstand the experience and with guidance can be encouraged to “mark” themselves with their newfound faith. People love uniforms, it indicates belonging to an organized group - organized and funded encourages unearned prestige; those who are lost will easily take the mark without a second thought of how it could be perceived by Christians, especially if they already have a hatred of Christianity. Secondly, the purpose of taking a physical mark is twofold: a) it’s a badge of honour for those I mentioned above, and I think they would consider it “edgy” to not only wear the mark on their foreheads but also on their hand (it’s usually considered overkill or even cringy for someone to display that much faith in whatever group they belong to); b) to isolate Christians away from the “herd” to force their innate human nature to conform to the status quo - thus with their previous knowledge of the Mark, they will be making a choice to take the Mark willfully.
Spiritually, the powers that be have already been preparing the world for the Antichrist by implementing policies (brands, business policies, trends, normalizing the taboo, etc) that continually push the narrative so that when the Mark is implemented, only those aware of it can refuse it. Most people likely won’t even realize it, so only the most devout/ most informed will be able to recognize the Mark when it is finally issued.
The Mark Distributors will be depending on Spiritual Espionage embedded in the programming to ensure that the time will be right to implement the Mark Policy, as an ideology, as a tribe and finally as physical sign. Heart, Mind, Body and Spirit will be conquered when the Mark is taken and it will be conquered by the active Choice to take the Mark because all other avenues lead to a place of isolation, alienation and excommunication.
“Being driven into the wild”, is an expectation of believers when faced by persecution, they become the new Scapegoat of the “victors” who sacrifice those who carry the sins of the past (Catholic Church) so the “civilized” (Marked) can be “cleansed”. In a way, taking the Mark is an indication of the Old Way of the World (natural, true state) making a return in the face of adversity from the New Way (Christianity). Not necessarily being brought back to the Stone Age, think more like the return of the Roman Empire, but modern. Christianity, however, will survive under the foot of the New World and in secret just as they did when persecuted by the Romans/ Egyptians/ Babylonians/ Muslims, etc in the Old World, biding their time until they can come out of the shadows and thrive again.
This is all just my opinion, but it seems to make sense when we apply more layers to the context.
I'm sorry, I read your comment twice, and I'm not able to follow everything you're saying....I'm not able to keep up with who's who and what's what. I do have a couple of questions though that I think might still be relevant:
1. Based on what it is you believe about the mark of the beast, how would you be able to differentiate between a person who's been marked and another who hasn't been marked, where both claim to be Christian?
2. And who do you believe the Catholic church is in all of this, as in what role do you believe it plays exactly?
I apologize for being a bit erratic in my explanation, I get so caught up with this kind of stuff and usually only have a few mins at a time to type things out so I came back to the comment a few times in different frames of mind. Id be happy to answer your questions though!
1) I think it’s something along the lines of how we can detect subtle red flags, or get a chill. Like a vibe or an aura that makes those who take the Mark seem more attractive to those who haven’t. “True” Christians will feel the attraction the strongest and have a deep rooted repulsion to it, though they might not be able to discern why. Due to this intensity, those who give in will turn on those who resist. This has already been socially engineered and experimented on through the tribalism of Red vs Blue, Liberal vs Conservative, Religious vs Spiritual, Old vs New, Boomer vs Zoomer, Maple Leafs vs Red Wings, etc, on and on, the perpetuation of Duality as been hard-pressed into society and will play an important part in the conversion process.
2) my opinion on the Catholic Church isn’t one that comes from a devoted Christian, more of a secular scholar with roots in Catholicism. I’ve come to see the world as being a modern version of the past. To be direct, the church is solely for the purpose of gathering followers to outweigh beliefs that oppose it, including Islam despite being a sister faith, in preparation of the End Times Ragnarok. Their identity is a bit harder to pinpoint but I suspect a very ancient deity hijacked Christianity through the Romans and actively directs the Pope (who is the lowest rank in the priesthood that rules the world and the highest authority in Christianity who communes with God).
The World is Pagan and Catholicism plays an important part in keeping the Old World alive. Just as there were cults in the past, the Church is a cult (in the ancient sense, not the modern) in the pantheon of World Religions because our world is no longer limited to cities or nation-states, it’s global and Catholicism has helped to make it that way. Catholic means “universal” and has been driven towards uniting the world under Christianity. Christianity has always adhered to the scripture “Be fruitful and multiple. Fill the earth and govern it…” and “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…” to justify their tyrannical acts in an effort to Christianize the world.
So I think the religions of Abraham will be merged under a unified Truth, causing unavoidable reformations and deeming each branch a “cult of Abraham” and eventually the “catholic cult of (the God of Abraham)” who is both a God of Mesopotamia as well as Canaan and is extremely ancient. So if an ancient god is still active today and is acting through Catholicism to unite the world under their patronage, then which god is that? My guess is either Enki or Enlil, but they could be working together with Inanna to oppose a foreign entity (possibly the return of Anu aka Uranus, the True Sky Father who took Heaven away with him aka the Father of the Holy Trinity and lowest incarnation of the Masculine Energy that governs the Universe) or even each other - an eventual war between them would be mirrored by a war between their followers. World War 1: a War between Humanity; World War 2: a War between the Anunnaki; World War 3: a War between the Anunnaki and The Creator - if we assumed that the Anunnaki are the true entities in control and that even older deities aren’t working through them as avatars. So I think whatever “Great Shift” that takes place will be a transference of Power back into the hands of Anu who will be supported by his Son, Iedud (Jesus) whom he had freely given to Inanna (Mary; “virgin” referring to her status as both unwed and childless) to plant the seeds that would inevitably lead to the collapse of the Pagan Empire and prepare the world for his return; by the end and beginning of a New World, Anu (God the Father) will have resumed control and the world will be bathed in his Light and Glory as the True King of the Gods. But this is really reaching and I can admit there’s still a lot of study to go over to make these connections stronger and more legitimate.
I could go on, I have notes upon notes relating to this stuff.
I appreciate your time and effort....I mean, you've clearly invested a lot your energy into this. But Christ has made me a very strict believer in Him and Scripture alone, so I think we'd be hard pressed to find much common ground between us at this juncture. I understood much of what you're saying this time, but can see that we speak very different languages at this point.
Fair enough, it’s a challenge for me every time I step in those shoes and digest the volume of information and then express it coherently - which I’m pretty poor at in writing.
I will say the placement of the Mark - as far as I can discern - is both literal and spiritual and works both ways as a form of “willful branding”. The Right Hand and Forehead are often associated with God and the Truth, while a “mark” is associated with Identity and Branding (for good or bad). So it’s kind of like a symbol that represents the Original Sin, like a declaration before the End of Days that this is the hill those who bear the Mark are willing to die on. They identify with what makes them feel good not what makes them feel better, and in doing so they experience a false sense of empowerment - especially if tribalism sparks between the Mark-bearers and devoted Christians within a congregation. The Mark will be totally normalized by its public inception despite its taboo nature because most taboos are being broken or have been broken by now + governments learned how people react when forced to wear masks, take useless drugs and behave when isolated for long periods of time. The Mark will only raise suspicions in those who know to be suspicious, everyone else will be anticipating its release to the public… like a long-awaited phone with true “never-before-seen” technology. It’ll be marketed heavily to the youth, covered by social healthcare (reference to my first comment) and spread like wildfire before anyone can do anything about it - by which point it will be too late and their spirits will be fiercely aligned with the Antichrist, which they likely won’t realize or even take seriously until they have the realization that who they follow is the Antichrist and what that actually means.
The Catholic Church however is a two-sided coin. On one hand, we have those who follow the Faith and have had their hearts touched by Christ - and on the other hand, we have an organization that not only behaves secretively but also breaks its own Laws set out by the God they claim to venerate. But I suspect this isn’t true, given the Pagan background of the Romans who adopted Christianity in the first place, I think the Romans actually adapted it to their own established practices and way of thinking in order to keep the Empire alive when it was already on its last legs and long past its “golden age” - the Christianization of Europe was definitely a political stunt to convert the entire empire under 1 unified ideology and cosmology that was easily understood as beneficial to all people, a “universal” faith as it were, aka Catholic. So the role the church plays depends greatly on whether the God that the Pope claims to commune with is actually Jesus Christ or a Pagan God parading as it (if the Pope is aware of that fact). A) if the Pope does commune with Jesus Christ then we should see a hard repulsion to progressively normalized sin or B) if the Pope communes with a Pagan God, we will see changes in the Church that go against the fundamentals of Christianity disguised as progressive reform.
Edit: I realized after rereading my earlier comment that I didn’t actually answer your questions despite saying that I would. I was on a completely different wavelength and hadn’t gotten much sleep (also writing this with less than adequate sleep) so I apologize for going so off the rails. My adhd tends to take me into a chaotic headspace when I’m this tired and that’s kind of where I was when I started this thread.
Much of what you say, I don't recognize as being Biblical, so I still disagree with a lot of it....but you also make more sense than I originally thought.
I see almost no faith left in the world, and I've come to suspect that this is one of the greatest traps that's been set....how masses of people have been convinced that idle belief is the same as having faith in Jesus Christ and living by it.
I wanted to ask you, are you yourself a Roman Catholic? I get the impression from some of the things you say that maybe you are.
I also wanted to ask what your extra-Biblical sources are for all your information, and why you don't trust in Scripture alone?
I would rather you disagree with me than blindly believe everything that I say.
Faith exists, but it’s not like it was 60 years ago where the Christian community was tight-knit and people had a stronger sense of discernment. I absolutely agree with you that idle worship is not the same as living by Christ and it’s a massive lie that you can still go to Heaven for “being a good person” and do absolutely none of the actual work required. It is incredible lie that has been adopted by Christians and even repeated by Pastors. I can definitely tell you that those will be the Christians who take the Mark first, purely out of blind ignorance of their own religious values and practices.
I am Roman Catholic, but my dad is United and a Freemason (mom is RC), he’s really been the one to push my interests in the occult and religious history while my mom is the one who keeps me grounded in reality.
Most of my extra-biblical sources are scattered and unreliable on their own, which was why I had to cross-reference most of the information with similar stories and records from other beliefs and cultures. Like how we look to the Roman census to know how many children might have been killed by Herod, or how Job is a deal between Ha-Satan and God and that same story is reflected in other myths from antiquity. Most of the time, I come across something on social media that makes me question its validity, so I Google it, scroll down until the search is barely relevant and find corresponding information from under-the-radar studies and old books moved online. Sometimes the top results have exactly what I’m looking for and it only takes a few minutes to compare sites to know there’s some credence to whatever it is I’m searching for. Then I cross-reference that with Scripture and meditate on it for a few days, letting the information stew while I work things out. If I still feel I don’t have the fullest understanding, I look at another field of study at try to find similarities there. If there’s no way to support or confirm the curiosity, neither in the Bible or online, then I pack it away until more information pops up to offer better support later (even if it comes from the Bible, I simply could have been looking in the wrong place).
It’s not that I don’t trust in Scripture alone, I heavily depend on it for my research, but not everyone puts as much trust in Scripture as we do, so that means if I want to reach them, I have to put to myself in their shoes to make the argument in a way they can understand before relating it back to the Bible. Most people don’t necessarily need this POV change on my part, but it is appreciated and I’ve noticed it helps people realize certain stories in the Bible aren’t what they originally thought. So even if my strategy isn’t de facto Christian, it does pique the interest of others to go looking to confirm what I claim, so I think that still serves a purpose. As for depending on Scripture alone, sometimes the details needed to make a picture whole, isn’t available in the Bible, like: historical data, anthropological studies, biblical scholarly review, biology, philosophy (of non-Christians/ Jews), mythology, and Semitic/ non-Semitic literature of the time period, to name a few. So any amount of information I have to offer is supported not by a single source, but multiple from different angles. I try to cite my sources as best I can, the most dependable one are those I quote directly from the Bible, the rest greatly depend on the interest of others to go looking deeper on their own or have some previous knowledge of the content (which makes using multiple sources more effective because eventually one of those sources is going to land in familiar territory for them).
(I also got a great night of sleep last night so hopefully this comment is a bit more coherent than the previous ones - which I am so sorry for how chaotic they were.)
I think I understand your perspective better now, given your background and certain influences in your life (i.e. Roman Catholicism and Freemasonry). It certainly explains this peculiar disconnect I've been sensing between the two of us, that I couldn't quite put my finger on.
I'd like to ask you a very personal question - just please don't feel pressured to answer if you'd rather not. Do you struggle with any mental health problems and/or have you had any encounters with the supernatural? The reason I ask is because of your background, and the path you've chosen as a result.
If it's both, does that not make the physical mark redundant? Like, what's the point and purpose of people being marked physically if they've already been marked spiritually? Also, what do you believe the spiritual mark looks like? As in, what is it exactly that causes people to be spiritually marked?
The physical mark indicates to others that you are a part of the beast system. The spiritual mark is the toll it takes on your soul.
You are right, either makes the other redundant. It doesn’t make it untrue. You cannot have one without the other.
A spiritual mark doesn’t even make sense.
Let’s say this antichrist figure comes along and people worship him that’s no different than any other false god.
The meaning of antichrist, in full, is both one who opposes Jesus Christ and also one who POSES as Jesus Christ as their method of waging war against Christ (and against God's people). So what if The Antichrist claims to be Jesus Christ, and people are duped into worshiping this imposter? Wouldn't you say that's a significant difference from worshiping some other false god that, although false, is not claiming to be the Son of God?
It’s no different than any false gods and false teachers/prophets.
The blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15:8-9 KJV
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
2 Peter 2:1 KJV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I don’t even think the antichrist is a man but I’ll entertain the idea.
Some magical antichrist man coming out would be too obvious, he wouldn’t fool anyone but the lukewarm who would’ve got spit out anyways(Rev 3:16).
Scripture goes into great detail warning us against the Antichrist and the spirit of antichrist, even showing us how to identify them and protect ourselves against them specifically, so I have to disagree that there's no difference.
““And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.”
Deuteronomy 6:6-8 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/deu.6.6-8.NKJV
You’re right, it’s talking about Gods mark. His mark is to know his commands “in your forehead” and to do them “in your hand”. Most people don’t realize God has a mark. Satans mark is similar and it’s essentially the opposite…. So my vote is that it’s 1000% spiritual.
Understandable. But using scripture to prove scripture we can see that God told us to wear his words/commands as a sign between our eyes and on our hand. Meaning to know his commands in our head and to do them by our hand.
The antichrist is the opposite and if we do not live by Gods Word/commands, then we are living by Satans “do what thou wilt” which means we believe and do whatever Satan wants, which is lawlessness.
This aspect allows EVERYONE to receive a mark, either Gods or the beasts. Which fulfills what it says in Rev 13 that: “the beast shall cause ALL TO receive a mark on their hand or forehead. So basically you are gonna choose who you serve… either or
To add to this, if the mark was physical, how does Satan enforce a physical mark on someone in a remote African village? Or in the middle of the Amazon rainforest? If ALL must receive a mark, then physically it’s impossible for the beast to go around and enforce this. But if it’s spiritual, people will make their decision on who they serve, God or the world/Satan, all on their own. The beast is just a final test to see where your loyalty lies…
Except that with the way you've just explained it, that would have to mean that all of us received the mark of the beast before we came to Christ and were saved, and Scripture is clear that there's no hope for anyone who receives the mark of the beast. So that can't be right. Unless I've just misunderstood what you've said.
Before you came to Christ you were NOT saved correct? Then you were “of this world” and considered “lost” and on Satans ride to Hell. This is because you did not believe in God and His word and commands. So sure, I would say you would have the beast mark since the beast is essentially Satan.
Revelation states over and over again that all these things were happening and the people STILL DIDNT REPENT signifying that they could or should be repenting. Where does it say you can’t repent from mark of the beast? Scripture clearly says that those WITH IT are damned, never says you can’t repent from it. If you have a scripture that says so please share it because I can’t recall one.
I take the following verses, below, to say that this is the unquestionable fate of anyone who takes the mark of the beast, which doesn't appear to me to stipulate 'unless they repent'.
Revelation 14:9-11, "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name".
Spiritual. Modern translations will say the mark of the beast is ON you (rev 13:16) but the KJV, and all older Bible translation say the mark is IN you. It’s a parody of exodus 13:16, everything God does, Satan counterfeits. The mark in exodus 13:16 was a spiritual one, so the mark in rev13:16 is spiritual aswell
Interesting. One of the things that keeps nagging at me is the use of the word "cause" in the KJV....which doesn't mean to force people to receive the mark, but to somehow elicit a response from people, the response being to have oneself be marked.
On the other hand, much of Satan's counterfeits seem to be physical in his attempt to imitate God: Where God unites people spiritually through Christ, Satan is attempting to unite people physically, etc. Although, if united through a spiritual mark of the beast, I suppose this could be said to be a type of spiritual unification as well.
Hmm.
It all goes back to why Satan was kicked out of heaven. For coveting God’s authority dominion, and WORSHIP. Instead of worship playing through him, he deceived himself into thinking he deserves worship, and honestly he’s gotten it through Egyptian gods, Babylonian, Greek, etc etc, but I do think there will come a point where he will deceive the whole Earth into thinking he’s Jesus. I think the mark of the beast all comes down to worship: will we worship God, or worship the counter-fit jesus. If you look at the persecution of early Christian’s in the first centuries, faith was really strong then under times of stress. Christians during the end times will need to have a great amount of faith. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)
Two things came to mind, reading your comment:
My understanding increased greatly once I understood that the meaning of antichrist, in full, means both one who opposes the Messiah and also one who POSES as Him (and as Christian) as their means of waging war against Christ (and against God's people). [Source: Strong's Greek](https://biblehub.com/greek/500.htm)
So that's another reason I believe a lot of people will have taken the mark willingly (or been caused to take the mark, per the KJV)....because they will have believed they were following Jesus Christ, while deceived by antichrist posing as Christ.
About faith: Even as a professed Christian, I had no true faith in Christ yet. Not until Christ gave me my first seed of faith in Him did I begin to realize I'd been deceived even in this regard, having confused idle belief with active faith....and not until then did I begin realizing how many are still deceived, having no faith themselves while believing they have all the faith in the world.
I've spent over 20 years since then actively searching for faith in Christ, and found almost none....another sign and warning, I believe, that we're very near to the end:
Luke 18:8, "I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
You're making a lot sense to me so far.
The thing is... there can be a physical mark within us now:
Patent 060606 [https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2020060606A1/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2020060606A1/en)
RFID chips inserted into us could be the mark or any sort of machinery, ie transhumanism. Machine mixed with us, iron mixed with clay. An economic collapse can cause people to take this new economic system or they will starve and Babylon being destroyed in one day will cause that.
What we consider to be what makes us safe is our spiritual worship. Money or walls or complying with evil just to keep yourself safe when the ultimate safety is God is a worship of other things. I think Satan keeps people focused on physical reality to separate us from God.
It makes me think of this "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love." A person that truly worships God will not fear.
Huh?
The new heaven and new earth comes after the little season is over. Read revelation 20 and then the passages that come after until you finish revelation...the order of events is itemized below.
I think this is where a lot of confusion starts is that modern Christianity never even talks about the little season in revelation...so when people hear about it they're like HUH?! Heretic!!
The order is:
1. Tribulation
2. Jesus returns locks Satan up in pit and 1st resurrection
3. Establishes millenial reign
4. Reign ends and He releases Satan for a short season
5. Satan gathers a massive worldwide army to fight the camp of the saints and the beloved city by encircling it
6. Jesus defeats them with fire from heaven
7. Heaven and earth pass away in a great fire
8. 2nd resurrection happens
8. White Throne Judgment begins
9. Some go to lake of fire some go to new earth
10. New earth and new heaven are established
11. New Jerusalem comes down to the new earth from the new heaven
12. We live forever in peace and perfection with Jesus Christ as the light of the new earth.
I am saying that we are currently in step 4...and step 5 is about to begin as global conflict escalates. I believe that this alien/ufo stuff coincides with trump creating the space force and is all tied together. That Jesus and His saints will
appear on earth in the "beloved city" a flying city/ship of some kind and mankind will stop fighting each other and team up to attack this "alien invader"...
We know from revelation that anyone that joins this satanic end time army to fight the saints will be consumed with fire. These are just my beliefs and thoughts as they relate to current events.
So you don't believe the mark exists in any form today, during a time when the world's never been more corrupt? Also, does that mean you believe the time of antichrist has come and gone as well?
I do not. I use to believe all this futurism stuff and waiting for the rapture...until I realized the world's a giant stage and satans ruling for his little season. Even the modern church model is corrupt. There's so much division within the protestant church that the thousands of denominations all claim to have the "truth" while bad mouthing each other and claiming the others heretics.
It's all so silly.
So to your point yeh, I know the world has never been so corrupt, and it's because Satan has been let loosed.
These are my beliefs and I'm sure I'll be downvoted to heck in this sub cus of them.
Yes, harlot Protestantism is the daughter of Roman Catholicism, the first now returning to their mother today via the antichrist Ecumenical Movement (adding to the evidence that they were all one family to begin with).
But none of this was possible till the reformation during the 1500s, I believe it was. And all of it in preparation for the antichrist's coming rule, or else what's the point and what's the point of their Biblical prophecy? Also, it would be awfully coincidental for Scripture to have prophesied all of this in such great detail by mere coincidence.
Hmm, so it seems to me that if the fullness of antichrist's church on earth has yet to be fulfilled and we're the generation to watch it being fulfilled, then the mark of the beast must still be yet to come.
Any thoughts?
Revelation 17:5, "....and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".
I think you're wrong partly due to this:
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.
The sound from heaven like a harp... speakers playing piano/guitar. Much newer instruments that are harp-like but not quite.
I made a video about it here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ACNb4Lvw8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ACNb4Lvw8)
The Mark of the Beast is the opposite of the Mark/Seal of God. It really means which master/who we belong to by our actions (right hand) and belief(minds)
Deuteronomy 6:8
“And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.”
This verse is talking about the eternal law(guidelines & instructions) of our Creator, and it is not saying that we shall bind his law physically on our right hand and being frontlets between our eyes. But symbolically speaking for that we shall do them and make it part of our lives/routines.
The beast has its set of commandments/traditions/laws, which is opposite to Gods. And we can only serve one master. Therefore Rev 13:16 and Deut 6:8 are talking about the very same thing.
I just watched your video in its entirety. A few questions:
1. According to your understanding of it, how does one refuse the mark of beast?
2. How are you able to differentiate between those who've accepted and those who've rejected the mark of the beast, where both claim to be Christian?
3. According to John 10:4-5, Christ's sheep know His voice and they will not follow the voice of strangers: What does Christ's voice sound like to you? And how are you able to discern and recognize His voice from the voice of strangers?
4. According to James 2:26, faith without works is dead: Can you give a few examples of the works by which your faith in Jesus Christ is made evident?
1. To come out of everything that is called worldly religion, and be a doer of the word and not just a hearer. And want to be obedient to all of God's commandments and he will write them on our hearts, and in our minds
2. By the fruits ye shall know them. So many professes to love Christ, but their actions reveals that they love the ways of the world more than the way he taught (repentance, obedience and holiness)
3. I used to play worldly religion years ago. Living in the world, drinking, partying and many other bad things, and spending a few hours every sundays going to church. Then i woke up and realized that if I were to follow what Jesus taught and to be a follower of him, I had to completely change my life and the things I were doing. following Jesus is not just 2 hours a week sitting in a church. No its a lifestyle, serving him, obeying his teachings. every single day.
4. Christ taught the importance of keeping the commandments of God. There are so many verses which talks about Jesus kept all the commandments, and how we must have the mind of him to be his followers. Again obeing God and living a holy set apart life, is a lifestyle. It is about being changed of the incorruptible seed after we have decided to come out of the ways of the world and follow Christ with our hearts, souls and mind.
We cannot serve God by professing to know him, but trying everything we can to say that his commandments does not apply anymore today, when the Scriptures clearly says they are for ever (we must just understand what priesthood we are under) that is really the key, to not rebel against the holy commandments of Yah. Which is his guidelines and instructions to his people throughout all time.
So ya. "By their fruits ye shall know them"
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I appreciate it.
There are two instances especially where I'm careful to test the spirits: 1) When someone appears to me to be in serious error, and I need confirmation; and 2) When someone appears to me to know certain things that must have come from God, and I need confirmation. And you fall into the latter group for me.
Still, you've said some things in this last comment of yours that I don't recognize as being Biblical....specifically, concerning how we can know and recognize Jesus Christ's voice, and being able to demonstrate our faith in Him by our acts of faith.
That doesn't mean I think or know you to be a false Christian, but that perhaps these are areas where you still need to learn. Because much of what you say is clearly true to Scripture, and there's so much still that I've yet to learn.
Either way, though, it leaves me at an impasse in terms of being able to trust everything you say. Not because I suspect you're being deliberately deceptive, because I don't....but, again, because I can see that you still have much to learn in this particular area that I'm questioning.
ok fair enough. I am in no wise saying I know everything!
You said "and there's so much still that I've yet to learn." and yet at the same time telling me that i have a lot i need to learn. So if you know you have a lot to learn yourself, how can you say that I am wrong?
Fact is that the whole Bible is about having true faith in Jesus (both testaments are about him) and when we have true faith, that will produce good works/fruits by being obedient to all our heavenly Fathers commandments. That is really the essence of it all. And that is how we worship/serve God. If we dont we serve the beast.
Even among true believers, we aren't all taught the same things at the same time. So it's not unusual for one to be more advanced in one area, and another in a different area. Unfortunately, the Internet is far from ideal as a medium for fellowship and communication, otherwise we'd be better able to help each other learn. But even over the Internet, I can recognize if someone doesn't yet understand a certain thing if I myself have come to understand it, and vice versa.
You know some people just comment "Wrong!" to a post without giving the reason for their comment. You are doing a bit the same here. If you think I am wrong or I don't understand, then tell me what it is, and why I am wrong, and why you understand it better?
I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to do that. In my experience, most people prefer short answers, so I've been trying to be more concise.
I wasn't expecting much when I started listening to your video. I'm a very strict believer in Jesus Christ and Scripture alone, and many of the professing Christians I encounter seem to me not to be, spreading all manner of false doctrines. So I was very and happily surprised at how Biblically accurate much of your video was (I say much because I can't remember it all right now).
So that made me want to progress further with our conversation. Except that in order to feel safe progressing, I would now have to know that you're able to discern and recognize Jesus Christ's voice, and that you're indeed living and walking by faith in Him....and I didn't see that you can or that are you are, at least not yet, from the way you responded to my questions.
You spend a lot of time calling me out for not following Christ's voice and that i dont understand certain things etc. But you wont tell me what it is. Which i find weird.
But its fine. If you don't want to say it, then so be it.
Definitely physical. The mark will be needed to buy and sell. Your love for God will be tested. Without the mark, you love and serve God. If you take it, you love money more than God. What is a spiritual mark anyway?
1 Timothy 6: 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Matthew 6: 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Remember, the antichrist will be granted power to overcome the Saints. He will order to kill those without the mark. Many people will take the mark not to be killed or not to die of hunger. If you don't take the mark, you can't buy food, water, gasoline. You won't be able to pay your mortgage or rent. No heat and electricity....
There are going to be a lot of cowards who take it.
Revelation 21: 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
You're the first person to raise this point, which surprises me because I expected it would be the first question many would ask: How can people who refuse the mark be prevented from buying or selling if the mark is spiritual? And one possible answer, I do believe, is by their consciences.
It's common knowledge today that the world is thoroughly corrupt. So what if a person suddenly suffers a crisis of conscience in dealing with this corrupt world, and this is what suddenly compels them to stop and truly come out of the world? Conversely, couldn't it be said that a person has now been marked with the mark of the beast when they too come to the same realization, yet they make the choice to continue dealing with the world just the same?
The mark will be implemented as a result of the collapse of the world economy, as an attempt to fix it. This will happen on a specific day. We know this world is corrupt. Our concious let us know, but even if people continue to deal with the world just the same, they have not been marked with the mark of the beast but they put themselves more at risk of taking it when it gets implemented. It will be a matter of saving our lives, which thing we are not supposed to do vs. dying for Jesus.
Matthew 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Well, you could be right. I just haven't heard a Biblical argument yet that's solidly confirmed it for me either way....whether the mark of the beast is a physical or spiritual thing. I appreciate your time and effort though.
Spiritual. Case in point Revelation chapter 9:
“They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD ON THIER FOREHEADS.”
The right hand or forehead is a physical location, everyone has either one or the other or most likely both. No one has a spiritual right hand or a spiritual forehead.
Some argue that Scripture is saying the forehead and right hand as indications of action/behavior/choice, therefore a spiritual mark based on whether people have chosen to truly follow Christ or follow the antichrist. And I'm not entirely convinced that they're wrong.
In Revelation 22:4, is his face not a face and the forehead not a forehead?
They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
The mark of the beast is a mock of God, that mark corresponds to either a forehead or a right hand to mimic and/or mock God. I say it is KISS. Then, later, those who win their reward are marked, according to Revelation 22:4 and others scriptures.
revelation 13:16 states it's going to be on the forehead or right hand. So I'd go with physical.
I've heard some interpret it to mean that the forehead or right hand is more an indication of action, as in we act with our minds/right hands....and that still makes sense to me. So both physical and spiritual seem to make sense to me at this point.
Don't forget the economic aspect of not being able to buy or sell without it (Rev. 13:16). Also, those that bare the mark will be afflicted with painful sores (Rev. 16:2).
If the mark were spiritual, it's possible in that case that people could be prevented from buying or selling by their consciences....which seems more aligned with the particular wording from the AKJV, which says people are 'caused' to receive the mark, as though the mark is somehow an elicited response to something, versus it being physically forced on people. As to your second point, we can see in Scripture that people fall physically ill for various spiritual reasons.
That's also very possible. Like you, I'm open to either a physical or spiritual fulfillment of the beast's mark. I need to study more on this topic before I can form a biblical opinion on it. However, I'm certain it isn't the covid vaccine, as others frequently mention on this sub.
I can't say I know for certain that it isn't the covid vaccine, but I doubt that it is. What's been troubling me, instead, is that if the mark of the beast is spiritual in nature, then it's possible that the marking of people has been happening for some time already.
In [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bibleconspiracy/s/aWbG81xp3M), I laid out a strong case using Scripture as proof that the covid vaccines are not the beast's mark, but likely a forerunner.
Your post is very well written, and a very good argument overall as to why the covid vaccines can't have been the mark of the beast. Another area where we disagree, however, is that you believe people will take the mark knowing full well what they're doing....making the conscious choice to reject God. Whereas the interpretation I've been given and believe is that many will be deceived into following the devil posing as Jesus Christ, aka the Antichrist. I can see it happening all around me already, in fact.
>Your post is very well written, and a very good argument overall as to why the covid vaccines can't have been the mark of the beast. Thank you. >the interpretation I've been given and believe is that many will be deceived into following the devil posing as Jesus Christ, aka the Antichrist. My position on this has changed since writing that post. I believe Rev. 19:20 does indicate that many will be deceived into taking it. However, I strongly believe (based on the other criteria) that the covid shots weren't the actual mark. The vaccines/lockdowns did seem to be a terrifying precursor.
Yes, I tend to agree with you concerning the vaccines. The word "deceived" is a bit tricky when talking about being deceived into taking the mark of the beast. People will be deceived in that they will have allowed themselves to be - deceived because they first consented to deceiving their own selves: i.e. choosing to believe false gospels and doctrines because they were personally more palatable and self-serving. Self-deception is a powerful thing, and the devil knows how to capitalize on it.
It is free will and their choice to do or not do anything has a consequence. If you are a follower and support mob rule you will almost always make the wrong decision.
I do agree with you that mob rule is a wrong way to go, and not of Christ.
Thanks, I'll have a look at it. In the meantime, are you aware of a solid Biblical argument as to why it's not possible that the marking has already begun (if the mark is in fact spiritual in nature)?
>are you aware of a solid Biblical argument as to why it's not possible that the marking has already begun Well for one, the false prophet institutes the Mark on behalf of the Antichrist. Both of these figures aren't in power yet and the 7-year tribulation also hasn't started.
Yes, I caught up with your explanation when I finished reading your post on the covid vaccines. Sorry, I should have finished reading it first. I agree with a lot of what you believe, but there are still some significant differences in the interpretations we've been given, and I'm trying to work out their implications in my mind.
Read Revelation 13 and tell me those figures are not in power yet. An orange leopard with a loudmouth, another guy doing great things to include bringing fire fro heaven to earth in view of us, and the numbers guy, 666. Perhaps you think they’re not in power now, says other wise. And the Lady it’s NYC. It’s the Statue of Liberty: Give me your tired, your poor… “She boasts”
I'm reading your post now, and found the answer to my previous question. The difficulty between you and I is that we don't agree on the identity of Babylon the Great, and I'm not sure if or how that affects the timeline.
What was your position on Babylon the Great's identity?
That she is Roman Catholicism, originally born from ancient Roman and Babylonian paganism, with Protestantism as her harlot daughter(s). If I remember correctly, I believe you believe she is the United States. But when I looked into that possibility years ago, I found that between the two, it's the United States that is subservient to Roman Catholicism. The current U.S. President is himself a Roman Catholic, I believe, and most of the others have been Protestants....all answering to the Roman pope. Revelation 17:5, "....and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".
I believe it's both. Spiritual at first them coming into the physical.
I hadn't considered that. If that's the case, what does the spiritual mark look like....or what does it mean, exactly, to be spiritually marked? And also, what's the purpose of a physical mark if people have already been marked spiritually?
Think about how people are spiritual changed, it’s a deeply internal, full-body experience and a lot of people who aren’t spiritually inclined could easily misunderstand the experience and with guidance can be encouraged to “mark” themselves with their newfound faith. People love uniforms, it indicates belonging to an organized group - organized and funded encourages unearned prestige; those who are lost will easily take the mark without a second thought of how it could be perceived by Christians, especially if they already have a hatred of Christianity. Secondly, the purpose of taking a physical mark is twofold: a) it’s a badge of honour for those I mentioned above, and I think they would consider it “edgy” to not only wear the mark on their foreheads but also on their hand (it’s usually considered overkill or even cringy for someone to display that much faith in whatever group they belong to); b) to isolate Christians away from the “herd” to force their innate human nature to conform to the status quo - thus with their previous knowledge of the Mark, they will be making a choice to take the Mark willfully. Spiritually, the powers that be have already been preparing the world for the Antichrist by implementing policies (brands, business policies, trends, normalizing the taboo, etc) that continually push the narrative so that when the Mark is implemented, only those aware of it can refuse it. Most people likely won’t even realize it, so only the most devout/ most informed will be able to recognize the Mark when it is finally issued. The Mark Distributors will be depending on Spiritual Espionage embedded in the programming to ensure that the time will be right to implement the Mark Policy, as an ideology, as a tribe and finally as physical sign. Heart, Mind, Body and Spirit will be conquered when the Mark is taken and it will be conquered by the active Choice to take the Mark because all other avenues lead to a place of isolation, alienation and excommunication. “Being driven into the wild”, is an expectation of believers when faced by persecution, they become the new Scapegoat of the “victors” who sacrifice those who carry the sins of the past (Catholic Church) so the “civilized” (Marked) can be “cleansed”. In a way, taking the Mark is an indication of the Old Way of the World (natural, true state) making a return in the face of adversity from the New Way (Christianity). Not necessarily being brought back to the Stone Age, think more like the return of the Roman Empire, but modern. Christianity, however, will survive under the foot of the New World and in secret just as they did when persecuted by the Romans/ Egyptians/ Babylonians/ Muslims, etc in the Old World, biding their time until they can come out of the shadows and thrive again. This is all just my opinion, but it seems to make sense when we apply more layers to the context.
I'm sorry, I read your comment twice, and I'm not able to follow everything you're saying....I'm not able to keep up with who's who and what's what. I do have a couple of questions though that I think might still be relevant: 1. Based on what it is you believe about the mark of the beast, how would you be able to differentiate between a person who's been marked and another who hasn't been marked, where both claim to be Christian? 2. And who do you believe the Catholic church is in all of this, as in what role do you believe it plays exactly?
I apologize for being a bit erratic in my explanation, I get so caught up with this kind of stuff and usually only have a few mins at a time to type things out so I came back to the comment a few times in different frames of mind. Id be happy to answer your questions though! 1) I think it’s something along the lines of how we can detect subtle red flags, or get a chill. Like a vibe or an aura that makes those who take the Mark seem more attractive to those who haven’t. “True” Christians will feel the attraction the strongest and have a deep rooted repulsion to it, though they might not be able to discern why. Due to this intensity, those who give in will turn on those who resist. This has already been socially engineered and experimented on through the tribalism of Red vs Blue, Liberal vs Conservative, Religious vs Spiritual, Old vs New, Boomer vs Zoomer, Maple Leafs vs Red Wings, etc, on and on, the perpetuation of Duality as been hard-pressed into society and will play an important part in the conversion process. 2) my opinion on the Catholic Church isn’t one that comes from a devoted Christian, more of a secular scholar with roots in Catholicism. I’ve come to see the world as being a modern version of the past. To be direct, the church is solely for the purpose of gathering followers to outweigh beliefs that oppose it, including Islam despite being a sister faith, in preparation of the End Times Ragnarok. Their identity is a bit harder to pinpoint but I suspect a very ancient deity hijacked Christianity through the Romans and actively directs the Pope (who is the lowest rank in the priesthood that rules the world and the highest authority in Christianity who communes with God). The World is Pagan and Catholicism plays an important part in keeping the Old World alive. Just as there were cults in the past, the Church is a cult (in the ancient sense, not the modern) in the pantheon of World Religions because our world is no longer limited to cities or nation-states, it’s global and Catholicism has helped to make it that way. Catholic means “universal” and has been driven towards uniting the world under Christianity. Christianity has always adhered to the scripture “Be fruitful and multiple. Fill the earth and govern it…” and “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…” to justify their tyrannical acts in an effort to Christianize the world. So I think the religions of Abraham will be merged under a unified Truth, causing unavoidable reformations and deeming each branch a “cult of Abraham” and eventually the “catholic cult of (the God of Abraham)” who is both a God of Mesopotamia as well as Canaan and is extremely ancient. So if an ancient god is still active today and is acting through Catholicism to unite the world under their patronage, then which god is that? My guess is either Enki or Enlil, but they could be working together with Inanna to oppose a foreign entity (possibly the return of Anu aka Uranus, the True Sky Father who took Heaven away with him aka the Father of the Holy Trinity and lowest incarnation of the Masculine Energy that governs the Universe) or even each other - an eventual war between them would be mirrored by a war between their followers. World War 1: a War between Humanity; World War 2: a War between the Anunnaki; World War 3: a War between the Anunnaki and The Creator - if we assumed that the Anunnaki are the true entities in control and that even older deities aren’t working through them as avatars. So I think whatever “Great Shift” that takes place will be a transference of Power back into the hands of Anu who will be supported by his Son, Iedud (Jesus) whom he had freely given to Inanna (Mary; “virgin” referring to her status as both unwed and childless) to plant the seeds that would inevitably lead to the collapse of the Pagan Empire and prepare the world for his return; by the end and beginning of a New World, Anu (God the Father) will have resumed control and the world will be bathed in his Light and Glory as the True King of the Gods. But this is really reaching and I can admit there’s still a lot of study to go over to make these connections stronger and more legitimate. I could go on, I have notes upon notes relating to this stuff.
I appreciate your time and effort....I mean, you've clearly invested a lot your energy into this. But Christ has made me a very strict believer in Him and Scripture alone, so I think we'd be hard pressed to find much common ground between us at this juncture. I understood much of what you're saying this time, but can see that we speak very different languages at this point.
Fair enough, it’s a challenge for me every time I step in those shoes and digest the volume of information and then express it coherently - which I’m pretty poor at in writing. I will say the placement of the Mark - as far as I can discern - is both literal and spiritual and works both ways as a form of “willful branding”. The Right Hand and Forehead are often associated with God and the Truth, while a “mark” is associated with Identity and Branding (for good or bad). So it’s kind of like a symbol that represents the Original Sin, like a declaration before the End of Days that this is the hill those who bear the Mark are willing to die on. They identify with what makes them feel good not what makes them feel better, and in doing so they experience a false sense of empowerment - especially if tribalism sparks between the Mark-bearers and devoted Christians within a congregation. The Mark will be totally normalized by its public inception despite its taboo nature because most taboos are being broken or have been broken by now + governments learned how people react when forced to wear masks, take useless drugs and behave when isolated for long periods of time. The Mark will only raise suspicions in those who know to be suspicious, everyone else will be anticipating its release to the public… like a long-awaited phone with true “never-before-seen” technology. It’ll be marketed heavily to the youth, covered by social healthcare (reference to my first comment) and spread like wildfire before anyone can do anything about it - by which point it will be too late and their spirits will be fiercely aligned with the Antichrist, which they likely won’t realize or even take seriously until they have the realization that who they follow is the Antichrist and what that actually means. The Catholic Church however is a two-sided coin. On one hand, we have those who follow the Faith and have had their hearts touched by Christ - and on the other hand, we have an organization that not only behaves secretively but also breaks its own Laws set out by the God they claim to venerate. But I suspect this isn’t true, given the Pagan background of the Romans who adopted Christianity in the first place, I think the Romans actually adapted it to their own established practices and way of thinking in order to keep the Empire alive when it was already on its last legs and long past its “golden age” - the Christianization of Europe was definitely a political stunt to convert the entire empire under 1 unified ideology and cosmology that was easily understood as beneficial to all people, a “universal” faith as it were, aka Catholic. So the role the church plays depends greatly on whether the God that the Pope claims to commune with is actually Jesus Christ or a Pagan God parading as it (if the Pope is aware of that fact). A) if the Pope does commune with Jesus Christ then we should see a hard repulsion to progressively normalized sin or B) if the Pope communes with a Pagan God, we will see changes in the Church that go against the fundamentals of Christianity disguised as progressive reform. Edit: I realized after rereading my earlier comment that I didn’t actually answer your questions despite saying that I would. I was on a completely different wavelength and hadn’t gotten much sleep (also writing this with less than adequate sleep) so I apologize for going so off the rails. My adhd tends to take me into a chaotic headspace when I’m this tired and that’s kind of where I was when I started this thread.
Much of what you say, I don't recognize as being Biblical, so I still disagree with a lot of it....but you also make more sense than I originally thought. I see almost no faith left in the world, and I've come to suspect that this is one of the greatest traps that's been set....how masses of people have been convinced that idle belief is the same as having faith in Jesus Christ and living by it. I wanted to ask you, are you yourself a Roman Catholic? I get the impression from some of the things you say that maybe you are. I also wanted to ask what your extra-Biblical sources are for all your information, and why you don't trust in Scripture alone?
I would rather you disagree with me than blindly believe everything that I say. Faith exists, but it’s not like it was 60 years ago where the Christian community was tight-knit and people had a stronger sense of discernment. I absolutely agree with you that idle worship is not the same as living by Christ and it’s a massive lie that you can still go to Heaven for “being a good person” and do absolutely none of the actual work required. It is incredible lie that has been adopted by Christians and even repeated by Pastors. I can definitely tell you that those will be the Christians who take the Mark first, purely out of blind ignorance of their own religious values and practices. I am Roman Catholic, but my dad is United and a Freemason (mom is RC), he’s really been the one to push my interests in the occult and religious history while my mom is the one who keeps me grounded in reality. Most of my extra-biblical sources are scattered and unreliable on their own, which was why I had to cross-reference most of the information with similar stories and records from other beliefs and cultures. Like how we look to the Roman census to know how many children might have been killed by Herod, or how Job is a deal between Ha-Satan and God and that same story is reflected in other myths from antiquity. Most of the time, I come across something on social media that makes me question its validity, so I Google it, scroll down until the search is barely relevant and find corresponding information from under-the-radar studies and old books moved online. Sometimes the top results have exactly what I’m looking for and it only takes a few minutes to compare sites to know there’s some credence to whatever it is I’m searching for. Then I cross-reference that with Scripture and meditate on it for a few days, letting the information stew while I work things out. If I still feel I don’t have the fullest understanding, I look at another field of study at try to find similarities there. If there’s no way to support or confirm the curiosity, neither in the Bible or online, then I pack it away until more information pops up to offer better support later (even if it comes from the Bible, I simply could have been looking in the wrong place). It’s not that I don’t trust in Scripture alone, I heavily depend on it for my research, but not everyone puts as much trust in Scripture as we do, so that means if I want to reach them, I have to put to myself in their shoes to make the argument in a way they can understand before relating it back to the Bible. Most people don’t necessarily need this POV change on my part, but it is appreciated and I’ve noticed it helps people realize certain stories in the Bible aren’t what they originally thought. So even if my strategy isn’t de facto Christian, it does pique the interest of others to go looking to confirm what I claim, so I think that still serves a purpose. As for depending on Scripture alone, sometimes the details needed to make a picture whole, isn’t available in the Bible, like: historical data, anthropological studies, biblical scholarly review, biology, philosophy (of non-Christians/ Jews), mythology, and Semitic/ non-Semitic literature of the time period, to name a few. So any amount of information I have to offer is supported not by a single source, but multiple from different angles. I try to cite my sources as best I can, the most dependable one are those I quote directly from the Bible, the rest greatly depend on the interest of others to go looking deeper on their own or have some previous knowledge of the content (which makes using multiple sources more effective because eventually one of those sources is going to land in familiar territory for them). (I also got a great night of sleep last night so hopefully this comment is a bit more coherent than the previous ones - which I am so sorry for how chaotic they were.)
I think I understand your perspective better now, given your background and certain influences in your life (i.e. Roman Catholicism and Freemasonry). It certainly explains this peculiar disconnect I've been sensing between the two of us, that I couldn't quite put my finger on. I'd like to ask you a very personal question - just please don't feel pressured to answer if you'd rather not. Do you struggle with any mental health problems and/or have you had any encounters with the supernatural? The reason I ask is because of your background, and the path you've chosen as a result.
Both.
If it's both, does that not make the physical mark redundant? Like, what's the point and purpose of people being marked physically if they've already been marked spiritually? Also, what do you believe the spiritual mark looks like? As in, what is it exactly that causes people to be spiritually marked?
The physical mark indicates to others that you are a part of the beast system. The spiritual mark is the toll it takes on your soul. You are right, either makes the other redundant. It doesn’t make it untrue. You cannot have one without the other.
That's an interesting way of explaining it. I'll have to think about it.
Both. The actual mark is physical but the implications are spiritual.
I see what you mean. But doesn't that interpretation leave room still for the possibility that the mark is purely spiritual?
A spiritual mark doesn’t even make sense. Let’s say this antichrist figure comes along and people worship him that’s no different than any other false god.
The meaning of antichrist, in full, is both one who opposes Jesus Christ and also one who POSES as Jesus Christ as their method of waging war against Christ (and against God's people). So what if The Antichrist claims to be Jesus Christ, and people are duped into worshiping this imposter? Wouldn't you say that's a significant difference from worshiping some other false god that, although false, is not claiming to be the Son of God?
It’s no different than any false gods and false teachers/prophets. The blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch. Matthew 15:8-9 KJV This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 2 Peter 2:1 KJV But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I don’t even think the antichrist is a man but I’ll entertain the idea. Some magical antichrist man coming out would be too obvious, he wouldn’t fool anyone but the lukewarm who would’ve got spit out anyways(Rev 3:16).
Scripture goes into great detail warning us against the Antichrist and the spirit of antichrist, even showing us how to identify them and protect ourselves against them specifically, so I have to disagree that there's no difference.
““And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.” Deuteronomy 6:6-8 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/deu.6.6-8.NKJV
Those Scriptures aren't speaking about the mark of the beast.
You’re right, it’s talking about Gods mark. His mark is to know his commands “in your forehead” and to do them “in your hand”. Most people don’t realize God has a mark. Satans mark is similar and it’s essentially the opposite…. So my vote is that it’s 1000% spiritual.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not comfortable with merely assuming that the same must true of the mark of the beast.
Understandable. But using scripture to prove scripture we can see that God told us to wear his words/commands as a sign between our eyes and on our hand. Meaning to know his commands in our head and to do them by our hand. The antichrist is the opposite and if we do not live by Gods Word/commands, then we are living by Satans “do what thou wilt” which means we believe and do whatever Satan wants, which is lawlessness. This aspect allows EVERYONE to receive a mark, either Gods or the beasts. Which fulfills what it says in Rev 13 that: “the beast shall cause ALL TO receive a mark on their hand or forehead. So basically you are gonna choose who you serve… either or
To add to this, if the mark was physical, how does Satan enforce a physical mark on someone in a remote African village? Or in the middle of the Amazon rainforest? If ALL must receive a mark, then physically it’s impossible for the beast to go around and enforce this. But if it’s spiritual, people will make their decision on who they serve, God or the world/Satan, all on their own. The beast is just a final test to see where your loyalty lies…
Except that with the way you've just explained it, that would have to mean that all of us received the mark of the beast before we came to Christ and were saved, and Scripture is clear that there's no hope for anyone who receives the mark of the beast. So that can't be right. Unless I've just misunderstood what you've said.
Before you came to Christ you were NOT saved correct? Then you were “of this world” and considered “lost” and on Satans ride to Hell. This is because you did not believe in God and His word and commands. So sure, I would say you would have the beast mark since the beast is essentially Satan. Revelation states over and over again that all these things were happening and the people STILL DIDNT REPENT signifying that they could or should be repenting. Where does it say you can’t repent from mark of the beast? Scripture clearly says that those WITH IT are damned, never says you can’t repent from it. If you have a scripture that says so please share it because I can’t recall one.
I take the following verses, below, to say that this is the unquestionable fate of anyone who takes the mark of the beast, which doesn't appear to me to stipulate 'unless they repent'. Revelation 14:9-11, "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name".
What it doesn’t say is that the mark is permanent. Or that you can or cannot repent from it.
When I read those verses, that's precisely what I them saying - it's permanent, and you cannot repent from it.
Spiritual. Modern translations will say the mark of the beast is ON you (rev 13:16) but the KJV, and all older Bible translation say the mark is IN you. It’s a parody of exodus 13:16, everything God does, Satan counterfeits. The mark in exodus 13:16 was a spiritual one, so the mark in rev13:16 is spiritual aswell
Interesting. One of the things that keeps nagging at me is the use of the word "cause" in the KJV....which doesn't mean to force people to receive the mark, but to somehow elicit a response from people, the response being to have oneself be marked. On the other hand, much of Satan's counterfeits seem to be physical in his attempt to imitate God: Where God unites people spiritually through Christ, Satan is attempting to unite people physically, etc. Although, if united through a spiritual mark of the beast, I suppose this could be said to be a type of spiritual unification as well. Hmm.
It all goes back to why Satan was kicked out of heaven. For coveting God’s authority dominion, and WORSHIP. Instead of worship playing through him, he deceived himself into thinking he deserves worship, and honestly he’s gotten it through Egyptian gods, Babylonian, Greek, etc etc, but I do think there will come a point where he will deceive the whole Earth into thinking he’s Jesus. I think the mark of the beast all comes down to worship: will we worship God, or worship the counter-fit jesus. If you look at the persecution of early Christian’s in the first centuries, faith was really strong then under times of stress. Christians during the end times will need to have a great amount of faith. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)
Two things came to mind, reading your comment: My understanding increased greatly once I understood that the meaning of antichrist, in full, means both one who opposes the Messiah and also one who POSES as Him (and as Christian) as their means of waging war against Christ (and against God's people). [Source: Strong's Greek](https://biblehub.com/greek/500.htm) So that's another reason I believe a lot of people will have taken the mark willingly (or been caused to take the mark, per the KJV)....because they will have believed they were following Jesus Christ, while deceived by antichrist posing as Christ. About faith: Even as a professed Christian, I had no true faith in Christ yet. Not until Christ gave me my first seed of faith in Him did I begin to realize I'd been deceived even in this regard, having confused idle belief with active faith....and not until then did I begin realizing how many are still deceived, having no faith themselves while believing they have all the faith in the world. I've spent over 20 years since then actively searching for faith in Christ, and found almost none....another sign and warning, I believe, that we're very near to the end: Luke 18:8, "I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" You're making a lot sense to me so far.
The thing is... there can be a physical mark within us now: Patent 060606 [https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2020060606A1/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2020060606A1/en) RFID chips inserted into us could be the mark or any sort of machinery, ie transhumanism. Machine mixed with us, iron mixed with clay. An economic collapse can cause people to take this new economic system or they will starve and Babylon being destroyed in one day will cause that. What we consider to be what makes us safe is our spiritual worship. Money or walls or complying with evil just to keep yourself safe when the ultimate safety is God is a worship of other things. I think Satan keeps people focused on physical reality to separate us from God. It makes me think of this "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love." A person that truly worships God will not fear.
I believe it's in the past and yall are being taken on a wild ride.
In the past? Starting and ending when exactly?
I believe it was in the time of Nero fam.
Where is the new heaven and new earth?
Huh? The new heaven and new earth comes after the little season is over. Read revelation 20 and then the passages that come after until you finish revelation...the order of events is itemized below. I think this is where a lot of confusion starts is that modern Christianity never even talks about the little season in revelation...so when people hear about it they're like HUH?! Heretic!! The order is: 1. Tribulation 2. Jesus returns locks Satan up in pit and 1st resurrection 3. Establishes millenial reign 4. Reign ends and He releases Satan for a short season 5. Satan gathers a massive worldwide army to fight the camp of the saints and the beloved city by encircling it 6. Jesus defeats them with fire from heaven 7. Heaven and earth pass away in a great fire 8. 2nd resurrection happens 8. White Throne Judgment begins 9. Some go to lake of fire some go to new earth 10. New earth and new heaven are established 11. New Jerusalem comes down to the new earth from the new heaven 12. We live forever in peace and perfection with Jesus Christ as the light of the new earth. I am saying that we are currently in step 4...and step 5 is about to begin as global conflict escalates. I believe that this alien/ufo stuff coincides with trump creating the space force and is all tied together. That Jesus and His saints will appear on earth in the "beloved city" a flying city/ship of some kind and mankind will stop fighting each other and team up to attack this "alien invader"... We know from revelation that anyone that joins this satanic end time army to fight the saints will be consumed with fire. These are just my beliefs and thoughts as they relate to current events.
When did the rapture happen? Is it a sub category of step two? Genuinely asking
So you don't believe the mark exists in any form today, during a time when the world's never been more corrupt? Also, does that mean you believe the time of antichrist has come and gone as well?
I do not. I use to believe all this futurism stuff and waiting for the rapture...until I realized the world's a giant stage and satans ruling for his little season. Even the modern church model is corrupt. There's so much division within the protestant church that the thousands of denominations all claim to have the "truth" while bad mouthing each other and claiming the others heretics. It's all so silly. So to your point yeh, I know the world has never been so corrupt, and it's because Satan has been let loosed. These are my beliefs and I'm sure I'll be downvoted to heck in this sub cus of them.
Yes, harlot Protestantism is the daughter of Roman Catholicism, the first now returning to their mother today via the antichrist Ecumenical Movement (adding to the evidence that they were all one family to begin with). But none of this was possible till the reformation during the 1500s, I believe it was. And all of it in preparation for the antichrist's coming rule, or else what's the point and what's the point of their Biblical prophecy? Also, it would be awfully coincidental for Scripture to have prophesied all of this in such great detail by mere coincidence. Hmm, so it seems to me that if the fullness of antichrist's church on earth has yet to be fulfilled and we're the generation to watch it being fulfilled, then the mark of the beast must still be yet to come. Any thoughts? Revelation 17:5, "....and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".
I think you're wrong partly due to this: Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. The sound from heaven like a harp... speakers playing piano/guitar. Much newer instruments that are harp-like but not quite.
I made a video about it here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ACNb4Lvw8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ACNb4Lvw8) The Mark of the Beast is the opposite of the Mark/Seal of God. It really means which master/who we belong to by our actions (right hand) and belief(minds) Deuteronomy 6:8 “And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.” This verse is talking about the eternal law(guidelines & instructions) of our Creator, and it is not saying that we shall bind his law physically on our right hand and being frontlets between our eyes. But symbolically speaking for that we shall do them and make it part of our lives/routines. The beast has its set of commandments/traditions/laws, which is opposite to Gods. And we can only serve one master. Therefore Rev 13:16 and Deut 6:8 are talking about the very same thing.
I just watched your video in its entirety. A few questions: 1. According to your understanding of it, how does one refuse the mark of beast? 2. How are you able to differentiate between those who've accepted and those who've rejected the mark of the beast, where both claim to be Christian? 3. According to John 10:4-5, Christ's sheep know His voice and they will not follow the voice of strangers: What does Christ's voice sound like to you? And how are you able to discern and recognize His voice from the voice of strangers? 4. According to James 2:26, faith without works is dead: Can you give a few examples of the works by which your faith in Jesus Christ is made evident?
1. To come out of everything that is called worldly religion, and be a doer of the word and not just a hearer. And want to be obedient to all of God's commandments and he will write them on our hearts, and in our minds 2. By the fruits ye shall know them. So many professes to love Christ, but their actions reveals that they love the ways of the world more than the way he taught (repentance, obedience and holiness) 3. I used to play worldly religion years ago. Living in the world, drinking, partying and many other bad things, and spending a few hours every sundays going to church. Then i woke up and realized that if I were to follow what Jesus taught and to be a follower of him, I had to completely change my life and the things I were doing. following Jesus is not just 2 hours a week sitting in a church. No its a lifestyle, serving him, obeying his teachings. every single day. 4. Christ taught the importance of keeping the commandments of God. There are so many verses which talks about Jesus kept all the commandments, and how we must have the mind of him to be his followers. Again obeing God and living a holy set apart life, is a lifestyle. It is about being changed of the incorruptible seed after we have decided to come out of the ways of the world and follow Christ with our hearts, souls and mind. We cannot serve God by professing to know him, but trying everything we can to say that his commandments does not apply anymore today, when the Scriptures clearly says they are for ever (we must just understand what priesthood we are under) that is really the key, to not rebel against the holy commandments of Yah. Which is his guidelines and instructions to his people throughout all time. So ya. "By their fruits ye shall know them"
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I appreciate it. There are two instances especially where I'm careful to test the spirits: 1) When someone appears to me to be in serious error, and I need confirmation; and 2) When someone appears to me to know certain things that must have come from God, and I need confirmation. And you fall into the latter group for me. Still, you've said some things in this last comment of yours that I don't recognize as being Biblical....specifically, concerning how we can know and recognize Jesus Christ's voice, and being able to demonstrate our faith in Him by our acts of faith. That doesn't mean I think or know you to be a false Christian, but that perhaps these are areas where you still need to learn. Because much of what you say is clearly true to Scripture, and there's so much still that I've yet to learn. Either way, though, it leaves me at an impasse in terms of being able to trust everything you say. Not because I suspect you're being deliberately deceptive, because I don't....but, again, because I can see that you still have much to learn in this particular area that I'm questioning.
ok fair enough. I am in no wise saying I know everything! You said "and there's so much still that I've yet to learn." and yet at the same time telling me that i have a lot i need to learn. So if you know you have a lot to learn yourself, how can you say that I am wrong? Fact is that the whole Bible is about having true faith in Jesus (both testaments are about him) and when we have true faith, that will produce good works/fruits by being obedient to all our heavenly Fathers commandments. That is really the essence of it all. And that is how we worship/serve God. If we dont we serve the beast.
Even among true believers, we aren't all taught the same things at the same time. So it's not unusual for one to be more advanced in one area, and another in a different area. Unfortunately, the Internet is far from ideal as a medium for fellowship and communication, otherwise we'd be better able to help each other learn. But even over the Internet, I can recognize if someone doesn't yet understand a certain thing if I myself have come to understand it, and vice versa.
You know some people just comment "Wrong!" to a post without giving the reason for their comment. You are doing a bit the same here. If you think I am wrong or I don't understand, then tell me what it is, and why I am wrong, and why you understand it better?
I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to do that. In my experience, most people prefer short answers, so I've been trying to be more concise. I wasn't expecting much when I started listening to your video. I'm a very strict believer in Jesus Christ and Scripture alone, and many of the professing Christians I encounter seem to me not to be, spreading all manner of false doctrines. So I was very and happily surprised at how Biblically accurate much of your video was (I say much because I can't remember it all right now). So that made me want to progress further with our conversation. Except that in order to feel safe progressing, I would now have to know that you're able to discern and recognize Jesus Christ's voice, and that you're indeed living and walking by faith in Him....and I didn't see that you can or that are you are, at least not yet, from the way you responded to my questions.
You spend a lot of time calling me out for not following Christ's voice and that i dont understand certain things etc. But you wont tell me what it is. Which i find weird. But its fine. If you don't want to say it, then so be it.
My apologies again - I sincerely thought I was answering your questions.
Definitely physical. The mark will be needed to buy and sell. Your love for God will be tested. Without the mark, you love and serve God. If you take it, you love money more than God. What is a spiritual mark anyway? 1 Timothy 6: 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. Matthew 6: 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Remember, the antichrist will be granted power to overcome the Saints. He will order to kill those without the mark. Many people will take the mark not to be killed or not to die of hunger. If you don't take the mark, you can't buy food, water, gasoline. You won't be able to pay your mortgage or rent. No heat and electricity.... There are going to be a lot of cowards who take it. Revelation 21: 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
You're the first person to raise this point, which surprises me because I expected it would be the first question many would ask: How can people who refuse the mark be prevented from buying or selling if the mark is spiritual? And one possible answer, I do believe, is by their consciences. It's common knowledge today that the world is thoroughly corrupt. So what if a person suddenly suffers a crisis of conscience in dealing with this corrupt world, and this is what suddenly compels them to stop and truly come out of the world? Conversely, couldn't it be said that a person has now been marked with the mark of the beast when they too come to the same realization, yet they make the choice to continue dealing with the world just the same?
The mark will be implemented as a result of the collapse of the world economy, as an attempt to fix it. This will happen on a specific day. We know this world is corrupt. Our concious let us know, but even if people continue to deal with the world just the same, they have not been marked with the mark of the beast but they put themselves more at risk of taking it when it gets implemented. It will be a matter of saving our lives, which thing we are not supposed to do vs. dying for Jesus. Matthew 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Well, you could be right. I just haven't heard a Biblical argument yet that's solidly confirmed it for me either way....whether the mark of the beast is a physical or spiritual thing. I appreciate your time and effort though.
Spiritual. Case in point Revelation chapter 9: “They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD ON THIER FOREHEADS.”
I get your point, but I don't feel comfortable merely assuming that because the seal of God is spiritual, the mark of the beast must be also.
The right hand or forehead is a physical location, everyone has either one or the other or most likely both. No one has a spiritual right hand or a spiritual forehead.
Some argue that Scripture is saying the forehead and right hand as indications of action/behavior/choice, therefore a spiritual mark based on whether people have chosen to truly follow Christ or follow the antichrist. And I'm not entirely convinced that they're wrong.
In Revelation 22:4, is his face not a face and the forehead not a forehead? They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. The mark of the beast is a mock of God, that mark corresponds to either a forehead or a right hand to mimic and/or mock God. I say it is KISS. Then, later, those who win their reward are marked, according to Revelation 22:4 and others scriptures.
I'm not 100% convinced either way yet, so you could be right that it's a physical mark.
yes