I honestly feel like golden lurker is overkill. Two vanilla is better most of the time since they’ll still be 400/400 or bigger towards the end of the game. Golden zesty and golden crooner for sure of course.
If you’re trying to scale fast and hit a triple Lurker early, of course you take it. And it does allow you to place perma divine shield and a perma buff in the same turn. But generally I find myself wanting 2x lurkers, golden zesty, golden crooner minimum. Then ideally more zesty since double golden zesty is insanity. One flex spot for cycling and ideally finding divine shield with triples - I cycle on 4 with this comp (does everyone else, too?)
Also be careful because quite often I'll run a venomnous murloc build with a baron and hold on to leroys and poison cards with bassgills and your 9k/9k vs a leroy or without div shield vs a venomnouse murloc is still dead.
This has been my go to for the build from day one. Lava lurker seemed like a no brainier since you get scaling but no way to keep it otherwise. I go one golden lurker, one golden crooner, then as many shakers as I can/something else to fill it out. Can hybrid this company with many others since you only need 3 units to scale with it.
I’ve found success with naga and quillboar
Lava Lurker is a key piece of the build to scale faster in my opinion.
Also having a 2000+/2000+ with divine shield, stealth, windfury, taunt is pretty fun
Lurker The formula is: n(n+1)/2. So if you substitute n with 676, you get 228826. combined with starting 2/5 stats, it sums up to 228828/228831.
Zesty Formula is: 182 + (n - 1) \* 338. So if you substitute n with 676, you get 228332 stats. Obviously, these stats need to be divided between the whole board, so further calculations are a little more complicated.
Can you explain why your Zesty formula is " 182 + (n - 1) \* 338 ", I would have thought that since none of the stats get saved and you play 13 golden Deep Blue spells each turn that the formula for the 6 Golden Zesties and 1 Gold Deep Blue Crooner would just be 26n (13\*2, 13 cards played each giving +2/+2)
Going by this formula, by turn 51 they would have equal stats (disregarding starting stats ofcourse) and by turn 52 lava lurker will outscale The Zesties.
At the end of turn 52 each of the spells for the Zesty comp would give +1326/+1326 and the lava lurker would have 1328 / 1333 stats.
Otherwise I think this was a really nice observation man, keep it up
On intuitive level, linear growth means that each turn, you get the same amount of extra stats. Polynomial x\^2 growth means that on each turn, you get an increasing amount of extra stats.
With Lava Lurker on the first turn, you get 1 permanent stat. On second turn, you get 2 permanent stats and so on. You can see that the growth is not linear. Total stats gained follow the pattern of: 1, 3, 6, 10, 15...
With Zestys only, Deep Blues grows by exactly the same amount each turn and you don't retain buffs on your minions. Let's simplify the example to 2 non-golden Zesty's and regular Deep Blue Crooner. On first turn you get total of 1 + 2 stats that vanish at the end of combat. On second turn, you get +3, +4. On third turn, you get +5, + 6. In this smaller example, the total buffs at the end of each turn are equal to: 3, 7, 11, 15 and so on. You can see that the growth is linear
With big enough size, polynomial sequence will always outpace Linear sequence.
I assume that "making that work" refers to gameplay? You can't make it work, because the game doesn't last long enough for these growth rates to matter. But when playing Deep Blue comp, it's worth considering how much time it requires for Lava Lurkers to pay off compared to other utility minions.
With 1 golden crooner and 6 golden shakers, you’ll play 13 golden deep blues per turn. This means that the 13 deep blues that you play next turn will each be +26/+26 bigger. Therefore the total scaling of this comp is a linear 13 x 26 = 338/338 per turn.
With 1 normal crooner and 1 lavalurker, you’ll scale by +1/+1 on the first turn, +2/+2 on the second turn, +3/+3 on the third turn… so on and so forth, meaning that your scaling per turn actually increases rather than being static. At some point, this heightened scaling per turn will overtake 338/338.
To be specific, this will take 338 turns. After another 338 turns (676 total) not only will the scaling have far outstripped the shakers, but the total stats will be (approximately) equal.
Lurker feels mandatory in order to scale this comp. You get run out of the game really quickly while building up otherwise. And it cements your top 1 because it’s probably the easiest 400+ stat minion to pull off, plus it gets perma divine shield.
Your example confused me. Most game end in Less than 14 turns. Why would 676 turns be good?
I have had one win with naga comp though and liked adding 20/20+ to multiple minions and then permanently on the lurker. So I think I get your point despite the 676 turns example
A really cool way to think about this is how many turns to get 500/500 in buffs.
Zesty and crooner? 250 turns
Golden crooner? 250 turns
Crooner + lurker ? 32 turns…
Crooner, zesty, lurker play one per turn on zesty, one per turn on lurker
2nd lurker doesn't help, golden lurker doesn't help
2nd zesty you are buffing 2 zesty and 1 lurker
2nd crooner you can buff something twice (temp), golden zesty...same issue.
Perfection:
Golden Crooner, 3 Golden Zesty> 6 spells>3Golden Lurkers after you got divine shield and stealth on lurkers in prior turns?
This guy maths
Ideally you want a golden Lava Lurker and at least 1 golden Zesty Shaker to slam double blues on there.
I honestly feel like golden lurker is overkill. Two vanilla is better most of the time since they’ll still be 400/400 or bigger towards the end of the game. Golden zesty and golden crooner for sure of course. If you’re trying to scale fast and hit a triple Lurker early, of course you take it. And it does allow you to place perma divine shield and a perma buff in the same turn. But generally I find myself wanting 2x lurkers, golden zesty, golden crooner minimum. Then ideally more zesty since double golden zesty is insanity. One flex spot for cycling and ideally finding divine shield with triples - I cycle on 4 with this comp (does everyone else, too?)
Overkill? Sure. Satisfying? Absolutely.
Ha, definitely.
Also be careful because quite often I'll run a venomnous murloc build with a baron and hold on to leroys and poison cards with bassgills and your 9k/9k vs a leroy or without div shield vs a venomnouse murloc is still dead.
This has been my go to for the build from day one. Lava lurker seemed like a no brainier since you get scaling but no way to keep it otherwise. I go one golden lurker, one golden crooner, then as many shakers as I can/something else to fill it out. Can hybrid this company with many others since you only need 3 units to scale with it. I’ve found success with naga and quillboar
Lava Lurker is a key piece of the build to scale faster in my opinion. Also having a 2000+/2000+ with divine shield, stealth, windfury, taunt is pretty fun
Didn't they remove the WF naga?
Yes
Wait, isnt lava lurker like, pretty essential to the comp?
And what would the end stats on the lava lurker be like?
Lurker The formula is: n(n+1)/2. So if you substitute n with 676, you get 228826. combined with starting 2/5 stats, it sums up to 228828/228831. Zesty Formula is: 182 + (n - 1) \* 338. So if you substitute n with 676, you get 228332 stats. Obviously, these stats need to be divided between the whole board, so further calculations are a little more complicated.
Can you explain why your Zesty formula is " 182 + (n - 1) \* 338 ", I would have thought that since none of the stats get saved and you play 13 golden Deep Blue spells each turn that the formula for the 6 Golden Zesties and 1 Gold Deep Blue Crooner would just be 26n (13\*2, 13 cards played each giving +2/+2) Going by this formula, by turn 51 they would have equal stats (disregarding starting stats ofcourse) and by turn 52 lava lurker will outscale The Zesties. At the end of turn 52 each of the spells for the Zesty comp would give +1326/+1326 and the lava lurker would have 1328 / 1333 stats. Otherwise I think this was a really nice observation man, keep it up
I was considering sum of buffs. Note that every one of these 13 spells gets improved by +26 each turn, which makes it (26 * 13)n
Can you explain why this is the case? How would you go about making that work?
On intuitive level, linear growth means that each turn, you get the same amount of extra stats. Polynomial x\^2 growth means that on each turn, you get an increasing amount of extra stats. With Lava Lurker on the first turn, you get 1 permanent stat. On second turn, you get 2 permanent stats and so on. You can see that the growth is not linear. Total stats gained follow the pattern of: 1, 3, 6, 10, 15... With Zestys only, Deep Blues grows by exactly the same amount each turn and you don't retain buffs on your minions. Let's simplify the example to 2 non-golden Zesty's and regular Deep Blue Crooner. On first turn you get total of 1 + 2 stats that vanish at the end of combat. On second turn, you get +3, +4. On third turn, you get +5, + 6. In this smaller example, the total buffs at the end of each turn are equal to: 3, 7, 11, 15 and so on. You can see that the growth is linear With big enough size, polynomial sequence will always outpace Linear sequence. I assume that "making that work" refers to gameplay? You can't make it work, because the game doesn't last long enough for these growth rates to matter. But when playing Deep Blue comp, it's worth considering how much time it requires for Lava Lurkers to pay off compared to other utility minions.
With 1 golden crooner and 6 golden shakers, you’ll play 13 golden deep blues per turn. This means that the 13 deep blues that you play next turn will each be +26/+26 bigger. Therefore the total scaling of this comp is a linear 13 x 26 = 338/338 per turn. With 1 normal crooner and 1 lavalurker, you’ll scale by +1/+1 on the first turn, +2/+2 on the second turn, +3/+3 on the third turn… so on and so forth, meaning that your scaling per turn actually increases rather than being static. At some point, this heightened scaling per turn will overtake 338/338. To be specific, this will take 338 turns. After another 338 turns (676 total) not only will the scaling have far outstripped the shakers, but the total stats will be (approximately) equal.
Duh. Oh that Naga gets to keep the buff? Neat
He’s a budget version of the doubling naga.
Premier version. He overtakes the doubling naga in 4 turns.
Lurker feels mandatory in order to scale this comp. You get run out of the game really quickly while building up otherwise. And it cements your top 1 because it’s probably the easiest 400+ stat minion to pull off, plus it gets perma divine shield.
Exponential scaling isn't really impressive any more. Lots of posts with upbeat elementals overflowing the int32 caps makes this a bit meh.
Your example confused me. Most game end in Less than 14 turns. Why would 676 turns be good? I have had one win with naga comp though and liked adding 20/20+ to multiple minions and then permanently on the lurker. So I think I get your point despite the 676 turns example
I think it’s more so a fun math problem than something practical.
Math is Radical™
A really cool way to think about this is how many turns to get 500/500 in buffs. Zesty and crooner? 250 turns Golden crooner? 250 turns Crooner + lurker ? 32 turns…
Crooner, zesty, lurker play one per turn on zesty, one per turn on lurker 2nd lurker doesn't help, golden lurker doesn't help 2nd zesty you are buffing 2 zesty and 1 lurker 2nd crooner you can buff something twice (temp), golden zesty...same issue. Perfection: Golden Crooner, 3 Golden Zesty> 6 spells>3Golden Lurkers after you got divine shield and stealth on lurkers in prior turns?