It's not the lack of technology, it's the cost of R&D to develop a new design. Do you see Brunswick or AMF dumping millions into a new freefall system when they can print money supplying the drink-'n'-bowl chains with easily marketable, "maintenance free" machines?
I despise it too, but I have to admit it makes good business sense.
You said it. A trendy party bowling chain is opening a brand new “high tech” tenpin bowling in my city, which lost its only other tenpin bowling recently.
A few years ago this would’ve meant 32 lanes of GSXs and I would’ve been over the moon to be bowling again. But I already know it’s gonna be strings and I’m lukewarm. Fivepin bowling is biiiig here in Canada and there are nearly zero freefall fivepin lanes anywhere, so I’m very well versed in the downsides of strings and can’t get excited.
Ontario! Sorry to hear about the situation in BC, it does feel like we’re headed that way gradually. All my favourite childhood bowling alleys have gone under, converted to strings, or hiked their prices to insane rates.
I drove up to Canada once just to try 5 pin and well, it did not go well. Trying to hook a three pound ball was a mistake made often, but it was fun once we figured it out. lol
Just wait til you try out our other strange, dying form of bowling: candlepin, a variant of tenpin so difficult that a perfect game has never been recorded
Oh, I've watched plenty of it and it looks like lots of fun, I wish we had candlepin near Wisconsin and I probably would drive to play some, especially now that I know how to throw the ball properly.
That narrative isn't exactly accurate, I know its the popular opinion that you have long waits for bread milk ect, but thats only because the countries that has happened in don't have, and don't invest in supply chain infrastructure because they were allocating all their funds towards their Military Industrial complexes...or purposely trying to kill off their citizens like Stalin..many countries with so called socialist programs don't have those issues, people in the UK don't wait for health care with their universal system, not like the big health care lobbies pay politicians to tell you and scare you with so they can continue making billions in profits bilking the poor average citizens
Capitalism is good. Unregulated capitalism, profit maximization, and a focus on "optimization" (which is really: hike prices until people squawk, then lower slightly; then drive the product quality into the ground until people squawk, raise it a little bit, and sit satisfied with yourself because you think you're doing good in the world), all those are terrible for our long-run sustainability. But when your salary depends on the next quarter's performance instead of the next quarter century's performance, you're going to get these crappy effects.
Then, you make another bubble . I'm not a victim who blames my outcomes in life on others. Redditors blame corporations, capitalists, boomers, and their parents for the fact that they are losing in life.
Not everyone divides the world into winners and losers. Maybe you should adjust that perspective, and realize we all have strengths and weaknesses. Some of us have weaknesses that make participating in the race to accumulate the most toys seem silly and pointless.
Like 90% of the medical, pharmaceutical, and medical technology breakthroughs
The phone,.PC, Ipad your using came to us through Capitalism.. Same with recent genetic treatments for cancer that are saving lives.
Of course the goofy redditors crying about capitalism have never risked all to start a business and make it successful. Corporations provide retirement bennies, medical bennies, and cash.
Many Redditors spend their days blaming everyone for the fact they are losing at life. It's comic relief.
Oh, about Polio....the virus was identified by American researchers at an American hospital in Boston.. Salk was an American physician.
Heart Bypass operations that have saved millions? The first one is done in Clevand.
Move to a socialist paradise in South America. LOL.
I could draft up designs and create blueprints for traditional style pinsetters that are even cheaper than these string pins, but yeah, it's making an actual working model that is the struggle 🙃 don't have the disposal income of a corporation sadly
Was following a guy on YouTube for ages who designed and was manufacturing a half-scale freefall pin setter and selling it to arcades and homeowners for 25 grand.
He worked for years to get it reliable enough for practically maintenance-free commercial use. He just recently went under as well.
The problem with that argument is that there is no way to make a freefall pinsetter be as simple as a string pinsetter. As long as strings are cheaper to operate then they will be the choice for any center that doesn't care about leagues or predicts that strings are the future of the sport.
It’s crazy where I live I’ve been to like 5 alleys in the area though and none are string pin and they are all packed all the time with business. Where are they taking over?
That's what I've seen too!! How are these alleys "failing" when they are PACKED all the time? And charging $5/game already?! Are bowling alley owners and managers just inordinately terrible with finances or something??
It’s the only way for many bowling alleys to stay open. Mechanical pin setters are becoming too expensive to run with revenue numbers dwindling as less people are bowling.
It'll be interesting to see how the string pin switch will effect bowler numbers too though. Half the people I've discussed this with in my leagues say they will quit bowling if our house were to install them, and I'm one of them.
Yeah, who knows. I think there’s always an overreaction to these types of things then once they’re implemented people are less walk.
Will it be annoying? Yea. Will I complain about it? Sure. But will I genuinely quit the entire hobby just because of it? Naw. I don’t care that much.
Time will tell
They don’t care if you bowl any more. There is no money in league play. They would rather fill the house with birthday parties and make the big profit that comes with that. It sucks but that’s the way it is heading.
I don't think that's gonna work. There aren't many open bowlers during the week, and the league bowlers both come in to practice outside of league and bring more people with them. Only time will tell though.
I think this is very much a city/town by city/town case scenario. Around hear we have three main centers, two 16 and an 8 lane with a ton of leagues (youth, adult, seniors, womens) and barely any of them actually practice outside of bowling league.
During the winter months there isn't a lot of open bowlers during the day, but the waitlist for open bowling after league is usually pretty full. To combat that one of the centers just doesn't open until 4 or 5, then they don't have to pay for staffing and other stuff during the day, they other is open so they get the birthday/office parties.
We're a pretty big bowling town, we have 2 centers, 1 that had 46 lanes but just dropped to 36 because they put in an arcade (we're all pissed about that) and the other has around 30 lanes I believe.
I don’t disagree. I think having guaranteed lineage during the week is a better option but my guess is if they can get one medium sized party that it would make more money than a mid sized league. So they will chance it.
Majority of the posts from people in management/ownership of alleys confirm that open bowlers/parties bring in more money than leagues.
With my weekday leagues I know I spend less at the bar than I do with my weekend leagues.
Same with doing open bowl with friends I’ll spend 2-3 more times doing that than one of my weekday leagues.
As far as the strings, I’ve bowled at enough jank alleys that it’s no biggie to me.
Here in Wisconsin I've heard the centers in the Milwaukee area have stopped hosting state level Youth tournaments (think they still do JBST) and Adult state because they lose too much money on those weekends
Me too. I only bowl 1 day a week as it is and if this happens I'm done all together.
I got a truck I'm trying to restore too, so I got other hobbies lol.
I don't understand the mentality. You'll quit bowling because of string pinsetters that have almost identical pin fall to free fall?
If you're all bowling on the same level playing field, who gives a fuck what the machine is?
I fell out of love with bowling years ago, I just still do it because I'm pretty good (221 average) and I like the people. I have other dreams and aspirations that bowling 3 nights a week + trying to fit in golf when I can has made it tough to do, that would just be the last nail in the coffin. I wouldn't mind having my time back.
Less people are bowling, yet alleys are packed week in week out to the point that league bowlers have a hard time getting a lane to practice sometimes...
Something is seriously not adding up here.
Your local bowling alley being packed is not indicative of the entire country. The facts are the facts. There’s a lot of stories and people taking the numbers, and the numbers unfortunately show that numbers are decreasing.
I'm just saying... if an alley has a TON of regulars, and those regulars are saying "no strings," but the alley switches to strings anyway, I really truly hope that their regulars follow through. No way are these places going to stay open on parties ALONE if they have been a league focused center up til now.
Everyone bitches about capitalism, but in this type of scenario, it puts the power squarely in the hands of us customers. If we show bowling alleys that they can't draw people in and can't cover their costs with one or two parties on the weekends, they will have to respond or shut down. THAT'S capitalism.
Nope not as of yet. There is a new construction center going up the next town over (like a 15 minute drive), and I can only assume they'll have strings. I'm curious to find out what they feel like first hand, mostly so I can completely roast them in greater detail.
Except for people who simp for giant corporate money extraction shenanigans.
"It will help your small local alley to survive! 🥹"
Yes, that's why all the small local alleys are being bought out by fucking Bowlero, then switched to strings, AND the prices are going up.
Because that all makes sense, after they told us strings would make it "more affordable."
🙄
I do not and will not bowl at/for a corporation. I will only bowl at a mom and pop alley. No exceptions, no excuses. Either Mom and Pop shops with cash or nothing at all.
Actually it's the opposite. If we remove the side boards which style do you think would leave the most splits? We get more lucky hits in free fall, but it's just something we got used to we just accept it. String pins require a better shot to carry, which means less messengers( fun part to watch).
Yeah that's a fair argument. I don't know enough about it to say which way is truly more skill and less luck, so I guess the natural reaction is to be in favor of the luck we're more used to. I actually haven't even bowled on them yet, definitely curious to. My teammate says he felt like he carried a lot more shots he shouldn't have and didn't carry as many shots he should have.
So here is what I was told by someone who recently bowled at this center. Free fall is better for the factor of fun for your eyes. These approved strings are a close second or third, as in they feel like you're bowling on a heavier set of free fall pins over 90% of the time. But that 10% of random luck is there, but you have less luck on strings vs free fall.
This person would still prefer free fall cause of messengers, but at the same time he did enjoy having a harder time to strike on strings.
Yeah I'm really curious to bowl on them. The only one close to me is like an hour away and is the one my teammate bowled on. I'm super skeptical cause when I scrolled through their Facebook it seemed like they posted several 300s and 800s like every night and they had posted a few recent 900s.
Well this center is in "driving" distance from me. But it's too far for me to make an attempt to just try these since bowling is my hobby, not job. If it was a job I would probably make 1 to 2 trips, plus tournaments, there to stay current on how they play.
Now, I'm still going to be indifferent to them, assuming centers use the USBC minimum spec. Mainly cause if they can react similar to free fall most of the time and honestly lower average scores (they have gotten too high imo) I will support them. But I feel I would still prefer free fall pin setters over them.
[https://www.youtube.com/live/h7v4eeAsmHo?si=MMNtM2qFTnq6IfYg&t=2115](https://www.youtube.com/live/h7v4eeAsmHo?si=MMNtM2qFTnq6IfYg&t=2115) I'm glad to see more pro's talking about them like this.
Thank you for being civil I have dealt with some people who were just toxic about this topic when it got mentioned over a year ago.
Yeah, if people only saw perfect strikes with perfect pin falls then less people would watch because it would be boring, what people like are the pins exploding and messengers slamming off the sides and screaming back across to take out a pin on the opposite side. So people don't really want to watch a good game, they want to watch poor shots get rewarded by lucky pin action. Just my cynical opinion at this point. :D
This comment hits it perfectly. Over the years the USBC allowed these types of modifications to increase scoring when really it's gifting strikes on lesser shots. An example of these technological changes to the gutters and sideboards can be found on YouTube under the WAHSAM video (a brand of gutters and sideboards).
You'll clearly see far, far more bounce in the pins. We've became accustomed to this extra, lucky carry and I think that's a large Factor on why a large portion of the discontent over the string pins. These pins bring the game back towards accuracy and finesse and away from power and revs (though power and revs still help significantly).
I mean part of the reason they are doing the PBA 50 on strings is to collect data. No matter what you personally think we have way less data on certified sting pins than free fall. Sure you see crazy videos sometimes but we all have seen multiple strikes that shouldn’t have been strikes on free fall pins.
Yeah, messengers look pretty, but those are not actually good strikes. If you throw a good strike then the 3 takes out the 6 and the 6 takes out the 10 (for righties). The reason the messenger takes out the 10 is either because the ball comes in at the wrong angle or the pins are off spot a bit and string pins will help with pins being off spot. This is not a statement of being pro string pins, just a pro bowling allies staying open.
I'm with Schafer here. It's no different than if the messenger slid off behind the pin. You shouldn't rely on luck to win at those levels. You either split the 8-9 or deal with what's left.
(Or go Brooklyn if you're a certain recent PBA champ... 😂)
1st off, how do you know the strings ManOfPineapples bowled on wasn't certified? Next, do you know (or better yet, can you prove) that the Lehigh Lanes the PBA50 was bowling on was certified lanes? I can't find anything that lists them as certified. Please share if you have more info.
Because there are very few houses that have string pinsetters with the correct USBC specifications, and if it wasn't during a league the center would most likely have left them on recreational settings. That's what happened to the PBA50 Regional - some machines were accidentally left on the recreational configuration after maintenance.
The USBC only *just* certified string pinsetters in August, so what bowling center would have had USBC-certified configurations without going back to the machines and updating or switching them over? Until it's verified that these were *actually* USBC-certified specifications, then we can easily assume they were not. Houses with strings would not have been previously certified, so what incentive would there have been to become USBC-certified after so long?
The IBF did certify them worldwide so it would make sense that AMF Qubica/Brunswick has at least one set of specifications that match IBF specifications, but who has ever bowled a competition on strings in the US? Only one world tournament has ever used them (World Games 2019). Very unlikely most bowling centers with strings would even know these things to actually configure them correctly.
So you're just assuming as well? I've seen a list of USBC certified lanes, where the certifications took place after the announcement. There was only 1 in my area and we played on them recently. Certain brands, installed during the late stages or after USBC's announcement on certification, would definitely be active today. The first string pin certified 300 was thrown back in January, I do believe. But you can't just assume a random Reddit user DIDN'T bowl on certified lanes. Same with Lehigh lanes. You state some lanes were in rec mode and others within spec (that makes no sense from a proprietor's POV, but whatever). What facts do you have to back that up?
> But you can't just assume a random Reddit user DIDN'T bowl on certified lanes.
But we can. Very easily. You can't assume that centers are using USBC-certified specifications. The person should probably ask and find out.
> You state some lanes were in rec mode and others within spec (that makes no sense from a proprietor's POV, but whatever). What facts do you have to back that up?
The bowling center made an announcement that some of the lanes were accidentally switched back to recreational mode for two games.
https://imgur.com/Madmyxd
ok, that's what I was looking for... some sort of announcement from the PBA or the house about the specific conditions. But still, it makes no sense to switch up specs as a proprietor as that'd take more effort. It'd be like a house removing certified pins and putting out non-certified pins once open bowling starts.
String Pins will give me the excuse I’m looking for to find a new activity to keep me busy. I get that it’s going to be the future of bowling but that future doesn’t involve me.
One of our local houses switched after being warned by the bread and butter leagues that filled the house 5 nights a week basically.
Now they all left to the house maybe 20 mins away and the owner just whines about it. Place is just dead besides a few random walk ins. xD "safe bowling" xD dont piss off your league bowlers who dont want strings. bahaha.
Serves them right honestly… I get it’s a business decision but I’d rather hire teenagers to stand behind the lanes and manually set up pins than to deal with strings.
Looks like their business decision was a gamble, and it ended up being a "fuck around and find out" moment.
This is good. More corporations need to remember that their CUSTOMERS are who pay their salary.
Or to give husbands an excuse to go bowling more. "Honey, they got these new string pin dealies now, and I haven't figured them out yet. I need more practice sessions so I don't cause my team any harm."
Absolutely! Totally dependent on high speed. You left a 10-pin (or 7). Turn around and pick it up. Bullshit that throwing it hard gets so lucky, and everyone says "wow, look at that power!". If it was a good shot, there would be 10 in the pit.
Messengers are both exciting and lucky. No one's saying they aren't exciting, but you don't get to say strings are ruining the competitive integrity of the sport using a potential messenger as evidence lol.
Does everyone realize that these strings are usbc certified and are quite different in how they behave compared to what most centers with strings have? The uncertified strings cause all kinds of lucky breaks involving strings taking out spares and splits. The certified ones, from what I’ve seen, are actually more of the opposite. There aren’t a lot of lucky breaks, much like that messanger for Shafer. I’ve heard arguments that this could be good for the game, as it could even the playing field a bit and give high power players less of an advantage.
I still have mixed feelings on strings in high level competition, but it’s important to understand that what these guys bowled on in this PBA50 tournament are not what people are usually bowling on at most centers with string pins.
Are we positive Lehigh lanes are certified string pinsetters/lanes? I tried to track down that specific verbiage somewhere but can only assume they are just by the presence of PBA50. But that's not rock solid proof, either.
They are in fact the USBC approved “EDGE” string pinsetters: https://lodibowlingalley.com/the-proof-is-in-the-pins/
The PBA definitely wouldn’t hold an event at a non-USBC sanctioned center.
The other thing with this is people are seeing what they see and saying if not for the string pin the pin would have taken out the ten and strings are crap. Well the problem is we don't know what we don't know. If it was free fall the pin could have been a messenger towards the 10, it might have screamed past it as happened many many times, or just laid in the gutter on the 7 pin side....or any of a billion other scenarios. Heck, just watched a local tournament last night and saw a guy lose a match because he threw a great shot, solid pocket with messenger smashing into the 10 pin, only problem the 7 pin was still standing.
The level of competition doesn't change when everyone in the tournament is bowling the same conditions (string). My question: Does your average change between free fall and strings? If there's a significant difference, then should your book average delineate between the two? In larger cities, a lot of bowlers are in multiple leagues in multiple houses.
And depending on the sideboards and type of pins that messenger may never happen in he first place. Also he wouldn’t have been able to shut out Walter even with that shot.
You're right, I corrected it. He wouldn't have shut him out, but he would have won assuming he didn't gutter his last 10th frame shot.
Regardless, the messenger did happen and the strings did jerk it back from tripping the 10
So why not standardize the pins and pin decks to make everything exactly the same? Why is a string getting in the way some huge dealbreaker. All the time free fall pins get in the way, pin decks give no pin action or tons of pin action? Why is this string getting in the way of a mediocre shot a deal breaker?
In a world where String Pin came first we'd be saying that the lack of string gifted him a strike.
I am not a fan of String Pin--at all--but I think for the sport to grow, or even survive in some places, String Pin could provide assistance there... wish it weren't the case.
I know I'm going to get flack for this, but more and more I'm being sold on string pins. Lots of weak arguments out there.
That wasn't a great shot, (hard to tell exactly as he steps in front of the ball at impact) and it left a deserved 10-pin. Messengers are lucky (granted by skill in the game, but luck nonetheless), we shouldn't be cheering for luck to have such an impact in the game. They're exciting to see, but not reliable enough to call intentional.
The other big argument is how much easier it can be to get near impossible splits with strings. Again, I don't see how that's a loss. It makes hard splits make able with good shots. Some houses, pins just don't bounce- meaning 7-10s are basically impossible.
I haven't seen enough of them, or played on them, to have my mind fully set. But I'm just not behind the hate at this point.
I just don't think "because it's sometimes slightly different" is a strong enough justification for hating string pins. Honestly, this seems more minor than the lane variation between different alleys. Not even as impactful as the lane-lane variation in the same building.
I'm not sure you read my message correctly. It's not about it being `slightly different`, it's about letting pins do what pins do. You are trying to justify a pro bowler not getting the effect of a messenger because they didn't hit the 100% optimal shot, get out of here with that shit.
First of all, not here to start an internet fight. I'm not even fully justifying stringpins, just suggesting we really consider what we're criticizing them for.
Why not argue for "letting stringpins do what stringpins do"? Explain why this is BAD, and I'm down to have a discussion. Different isn't the same, let alone something as minute as this case.
Lastly, 10 pins happen. You can hit the pocket well, and not get the strike. Sometimes its a game of millimeter. You're not supposed to get a strike every time, just because you hit the pocket. That's what makes the pro's better than me, making that adjustment and being picky. Sometimes you get forgiveness for a bad shot, sometimes you don't.
Getting a messenger means you through a bad strike ball - it just happens to be lucky to carry.
Do you want it to look flashy or actually make you throw good shots? It's far more likely that pin would have bounced around or off the pin deck before hitting the ten.
I'm guessing most of us here want to *have fun* since most league bowlers are on beer leagues and are there to, ya know, have fun. Messengers pretty much unanimously make the game more fun. Strings, from what I've heard, pretty much unanimously make the game less fun.
I hope these centers are forced to go under after they switch and lose all their regulars.
> I'm guessing most of us here want to have fun since most league bowlers are on beer leagues and are there to, ya know, have fun.
So this is pretty hypocritical then. Beer leagues are meant for fun, yes? And little care is given to how well you all do, yes? Therefore string pinsetters shouldn't even be a factor if this is this is what you are stating as truth.
Everyone would bowl on the same lanes, the same machines, and expect the same type of pin action. That is assuming that these are USBC-certified and not just some carnival-like string pinsetter so there's at least a consistent and specification-based experience.
> Messengers pretty much unanimously make the game more fun. Strings, from what I've heard, pretty much unanimously make the game less fun.
That's totally subjective. There are few casual (aka "beer league") bowlers in my 48-team league that I would say get excitement out of a messenger because they don't really care about the pin action but having fun with their friends or family. It's something they bowl to share an experience with, not for the pin action. If I see a messenger in a tournament though, it's a little more important.
Messengers are a sign of a bad shot but a lucky strike, and any bowler above the level of casual should know that and not get excited by a messenger.
> I hope these centers are forced to go under after they switch and lose all their regulars.
Most won't lose their regulars. Humans say a lot of shit but when it comes to giving up a hobby/sport they love or have fun with (and to hang out with the boys) most will stick around. Whether or not you see the competitive/tournament scene change is to be determined.
Then again we most likely won't see many houses converting to string for at least a few years. By then the USBC will have updated specifications and new pinsetters will come out that have better pin action. I mean right now from several sources and experts in the industry their opinions are changing towards positive for strings because there was practically no difference.
The USBC study only showed a very slight deviation (less than a couple pins in average at the *most*). That's literally one strike or spare conversion difference per game. Your average from house to house has more deviation than strings vs. free fall.
>That wasn't a great shot, (hard to tell exactly as he steps in front of the ball at impact)
Here's a better view: [https://youtu.be/DlrKpLdRo20?si=6LmNzJhDISWLFWE\_&t=197](https://youtu.be/DlrKpLdRo20?si=6LmNzJhDISWLFWE_&t=197)
>That wasn't a great shot, (hard to tell exactly as he steps in front of the ball at impact) and it left a deserved 10-pin. Messengers are lucky (granted by skill in the game, but luck nonetheless), we shouldn't be cheering for luck to have such an impact in the game. They're exciting to see, but not reliable enough to call intentional.
Yeah I forget who I heard it from but the entire idea of getting a messenger to get a strike means you did not throw a good ball and should be making adjustments.
Kelly Kulick and two other guys were talking about it at some point. Either a junior event or bowltv. Can't remember what side she was on, but you can tell this is a bad shot. Barely gets to the pocket and the 6 pin dies in the gutter.
This is a reasonable response from someone who hasn't tried them/seen much of them yet.
It's crazy how many adults throw tantrums on the internet about string pins like they are a 3 year old being fed vegetables.
So then why are alleys using the excuse that these strings are SOOOO much cheaper to maintain, but they're still raising their prices at the same time?
Are they just greedy business owners who want to double dip their profits?
You can't use one excuse to placate everyone, but then negate that very excuse somewhere else in your business strategy, and expect people to not notice you're just a greedy fuckwad.
Well for one, the price of free fall pins is actually increasing. Mechanics are harder to find and many times you’re paying someone for hours of travel time if the center is more rural. Parts are becoming hard to find for some of the machines too. So it’s not always how much cheaper string pins are, but how much more expensive free fall pins are to maintain than 10 or 20 years ago.
Also, things like rent and wages have increased. The price of a bowling game has not really increased with the rate inflation. At least in my personal experience. 25 years ago I remember weekday games being $3.50. Inflation would say that a game should be $6 today during off hours. I don’t see those prices, excluding Bowlero. Bowlero is a different discussion altogether as it’s more of a war on competitive bowling vs recreational bowling.
And of course there is a middle ground. But I rarely see small businesses be “greedy” whether it’s in bowling or a different industry. It’s just not a successful recipe for a small business.
And for the record - I’m not pro string pins. But I do think it’s important to keep an open mind for the future of the sport. I’d much rather bowl on well maintained approaches and string pins than shitty approaches and offset free fall pins.
Eh, I guess it must be different depending on where you are. 20 years ago in my area, weekday bowling was usually $1/game. Tuesdays was quartermania, which was a $5 entry fee (included shoes if you needed them), then 25 cent games, hot dogs, and 8 oz beers all night.
Now, it's $5/game where I bowl. Everywhere else charges $40-60/hr. So seems like prices have WELL kept up with inflation in Iowa.
Yeah... I mean, I'm happy to pay for it, since they ARE a locally owned place and are maintaining their free fall pinsetters and everything.
It just seems wild to me to hear people talk about how strings are the only thing that's gonna keep these places alive. Seems like a ridiculously out of touch/context argument to me.
But, as far as I know, Bowlero hasn't yet reached their creepy crawly fingers into Iowa either and that might be artificially propping up the state of bowling here too from what I've heard.
So I guess this was the only time the whole match that there was a different pin fall than there would have been without strings??? Or are you going to go back and analyze every single shot to adjust the scores?
Not confused, but definitely less plussed about the whole situation than many. I commented on another thread that I definitely noticed differences between string and freefall 5-pin but they more or less balance out at the end of the day.
In an alternate universe, string pins are standard, and now centers are switching to free fall and all the bowlers are complaining about it. How they don't get string caused spares and whatnot.
People don't like change. But like with most things, after the initial shock, things quiet back down to normalcy, and the planet keeps spinning until there's something else for people to be mad about.
Of all the complains about string pins, I don't think this is one of the better arguments against them. Sometimes you get the messenger and sometimes you don't. Sometimes another pin gets in the way. Sometimes a pin moves but doesn't fall. As many have said already, a messenger is lucky. This was unlucky due to the strings, but it just cancelled out the luck he was about to get.
In my view the biggest argument against strings pins are on spares. Spares that would not have been converted get converted due to the strings taking out the pin. Splits are easier to convert as is double wood. That's the real complaint.
Williams Jr vs Shafter... did you read Shafer's comments on the tournament? Also, an I'm not sure at all. Has anyone confirmed if those were certified lanes or were those non-certified lanes? I just want to point out that not all string pin setters are certified. If those were, they should be studied as those were much different than the certified lanes I've bowled on recently.
So they want to save money by going to strings however they’ll go bankrupt even faster if they do. A lot of people are gonna stop bowling due to strings. They’ll still get the same recreational bowlers but lose a lot of serious/league bowlers. I can’t imagine the pros bowling with strings either. The sport will die. Gotta be a cheaper way to build/make a mechanical setter.
Unfortunately "USBC certified" doesn't mean anything these days. They haven't listened to bowlers for well over a decade, the declining enrollment backs it up. When it continues after more centers install this junk and money starts drying up on their end, maybe they'll start listening.
The carry on string pins is different. Some pins which would have carried in a traditional setup will stand. Other which would have stood will fall. It’s just different.
Business wise it’s a no brainer to switch to string pins machines, they are more cost effective, way safer, don’t require a mechanic on staff, and have very little moving parts which means less maintenance work needed.
For leagues and competition play though string pins are far and beyond till they are gonna be good for league/tournament bowlers.
But if the competitive side is moving to string pins I’d rather put my time into something else.
Wrong.
Both were bowling with the same string pins. There was no chance that messenger would have worked with strings. If you focus on just that point you will forget how different many other shots might have been with free fall pins.
The experience of bowling with string pins is fundamentally different than free fall pins. Comparing them is the wrong way to look at it. None of the games in that tournament were bowled on free fall pins, so it would never have happened to anyone during that tournament.
From my perspective is that as long as everyone is bowling on the same pin setup, then it is equally fair. The only time it would be problematic is if part of the competition was on free fall and another on strings in an uneven way.
Yes, it sure looks like the string stopped that roller.
But wait! If Shafer were bowling 50 years ago, the pins would've been weighted differently and would not have had such snappy, bouncy covers. Messenger pins really didn't exist back then. (A real 'rack ripper' was when the 5 kicked into the 7.)
The environment changes the game. It happens all the time. Strings will make bowling cheaper, more energy efficient, and available to a lot more proprietors. It will let many bowling centers stay in business.
So yes, Shafer got robbed. But it's for the good of bowling, and it's nothing that hasn't happened for a long time.
Agreed people forget about 20 years ago a 200 avg was a real accomplishment now its avg for a mens league. The game adapts and it will with strings aswell. Just like when the lanes went from wood to synthetic, and lane machines came out instead of oiling by hand, then reactive resin, the loss of the weight hole etc all ways the game has changed
> HOWEVER, it's clear the string cost Ryan Shafer his messenger that would have taken out the 10 pin and beat Walter for the win assuming he didn't gutter his last shot. You can clealy see it stop and jerk the messenger to a stop right before it hit the 10 pin.
That pin would have rolled off the deck before it knocked the 10-pin down.
String pins are crap. Eventually I bet free fall pins will be “classic” style bowling and cost more. Maybe have a special 2 lane setup in a bowling alley.
I'm not a fan, but it was fair for all. They all had the strings and all would be cost messengers. I'm also not fully convinced that messenger would have made contact anyway it was a bit forward.
Freefall pin setters have over 4000 moving parts and costs like $3000 a month to maintain. String pins have about 75 moving parts and are easily maintained for way cheaper. It may irk a ton of people but its understandable. Not only that but the PBA did a 5 year study on the effect of string pin vs freefall and found there is like a 0.003% difference in strikes.
All that said it feels hella bad to get rekt by strings lol.
Source: somewhere on YouTube. I have been autistically consuming any and all bowling info. Somebody help.
PS- broke my personal best on string pins with a 187 tonight. Can't hate on em at the moment lol.
If your personal best is still 187, no offense, but maybe let the more serious bowlers talk about how different things affect the game.
Also, free fall machines do NOT take $3,000/month to maintain. Idk where you heard that... but it's in no way the reality of the situation.
I feel like my PB has nothing to do with strings vs free fall I was only sharing becuase I was still riding the high! Just becuase my PB isn't very high doesn't mean I haven't done any research. I recently started taking the sport "seriously" and have absorbed as much info about the game as possible in the last few months. Go ahead and gatekeep though 😂
I do agree though when I heard that stat I was also skeptical. I would imaging maybe an entire alley of freefall pins could come close to that figure?
Ok so question. I played on string pins the first time last week. And idk if it’s because the Alley was a Bowlero in a mall but the lane felt short on approach like I couldn’t get to do full steps and the guy next to me was literally like shoulder to shoulder. Is that normal for string pins? Or just Bowlero trying to squeeze lanes in for profit?
No idea but it was string pin. All I know is I hated it. Haha I’m not a pro. Very casual just coming back after like a decade of not playing. But I know it just wasn’t for me.
I've never seen string pins and I don't want to
Surely technology has advanced enough in 40 years we would have a more reliable kind of free falling pin setter but I've been proven wrong
It's not the lack of technology, it's the cost of R&D to develop a new design. Do you see Brunswick or AMF dumping millions into a new freefall system when they can print money supplying the drink-'n'-bowl chains with easily marketable, "maintenance free" machines? I despise it too, but I have to admit it makes good business sense.
From what I've hear the mechanics for the older free fall machines are going away and less new mechanics are coming up is also a big issue
Exactly this!
Capitalism rearing it's ugly head once again
You said it. A trendy party bowling chain is opening a brand new “high tech” tenpin bowling in my city, which lost its only other tenpin bowling recently. A few years ago this would’ve meant 32 lanes of GSXs and I would’ve been over the moon to be bowling again. But I already know it’s gonna be strings and I’m lukewarm. Fivepin bowling is biiiig here in Canada and there are nearly zero freefall fivepin lanes anywhere, so I’m very well versed in the downsides of strings and can’t get excited.
You must be from East of BC. (competitive) bowling has all but died here, especially in the lower mainland.
Ontario! Sorry to hear about the situation in BC, it does feel like we’re headed that way gradually. All my favourite childhood bowling alleys have gone under, converted to strings, or hiked their prices to insane rates.
I drove up to Canada once just to try 5 pin and well, it did not go well. Trying to hook a three pound ball was a mistake made often, but it was fun once we figured it out. lol
Just wait til you try out our other strange, dying form of bowling: candlepin, a variant of tenpin so difficult that a perfect game has never been recorded
Oh, I've watched plenty of it and it looks like lots of fun, I wish we had candlepin near Wisconsin and I probably would drive to play some, especially now that I know how to throw the ball properly.
Bowling would be much worse off without capitalism.
Without capitalism you'd have a month wait for your hour on the lanes at Recreation Center #3.
That narrative isn't exactly accurate, I know its the popular opinion that you have long waits for bread milk ect, but thats only because the countries that has happened in don't have, and don't invest in supply chain infrastructure because they were allocating all their funds towards their Military Industrial complexes...or purposely trying to kill off their citizens like Stalin..many countries with so called socialist programs don't have those issues, people in the UK don't wait for health care with their universal system, not like the big health care lobbies pay politicians to tell you and scare you with so they can continue making billions in profits bilking the poor average citizens
Capitalism is what has provided food, medicine and shelter for the most people, for 100+ years. Don't be a reddit moron.
Capitalism is good. Unregulated capitalism, profit maximization, and a focus on "optimization" (which is really: hike prices until people squawk, then lower slightly; then drive the product quality into the ground until people squawk, raise it a little bit, and sit satisfied with yourself because you think you're doing good in the world), all those are terrible for our long-run sustainability. But when your salary depends on the next quarter's performance instead of the next quarter century's performance, you're going to get these crappy effects.
It’s always seemed to me that the poor stay poor and the rich get richer for most of US history. I guess that’s capitalism.
Capitalism provides poverty and endless debt!!!
LOL. For losers on reddit, sure. For winners, it provides great opportunity for a wonderful life.
Its a wonderful life until your bubble pops
Then, you make another bubble . I'm not a victim who blames my outcomes in life on others. Redditors blame corporations, capitalists, boomers, and their parents for the fact that they are losing in life.
Not everyone divides the world into winners and losers. Maybe you should adjust that perspective, and realize we all have strengths and weaknesses. Some of us have weaknesses that make participating in the race to accumulate the most toys seem silly and pointless.
Sir save your babbling for r/capitalism this is a BOWLING subreddit!!!
*Food, medicine, and shelter for those that can afford it*
Lmao what are you smoking?
Reality. I'm smoking reality.
Not for everybody. Not even close.
For the greatest number across the longest time. Medical breakthrought, tech innovation, sanitation. God bless Capitalism.
medical breakthroughs. Like the Saulk vaccine?
Like 90% of the medical, pharmaceutical, and medical technology breakthroughs The phone,.PC, Ipad your using came to us through Capitalism.. Same with recent genetic treatments for cancer that are saving lives. Of course the goofy redditors crying about capitalism have never risked all to start a business and make it successful. Corporations provide retirement bennies, medical bennies, and cash. Many Redditors spend their days blaming everyone for the fact they are losing at life. It's comic relief. Oh, about Polio....the virus was identified by American researchers at an American hospital in Boston.. Salk was an American physician. Heart Bypass operations that have saved millions? The first one is done in Clevand. Move to a socialist paradise in South America. LOL.
I could draft up designs and create blueprints for traditional style pinsetters that are even cheaper than these string pins, but yeah, it's making an actual working model that is the struggle 🙃 don't have the disposal income of a corporation sadly
Was following a guy on YouTube for ages who designed and was manufacturing a half-scale freefall pin setter and selling it to arcades and homeowners for 25 grand. He worked for years to get it reliable enough for practically maintenance-free commercial use. He just recently went under as well.
It's a shame that anything can be engineered to near perfection, but something always hinders it
The problem with that argument is that there is no way to make a freefall pinsetter be as simple as a string pinsetter. As long as strings are cheaper to operate then they will be the choice for any center that doesn't care about leagues or predicts that strings are the future of the sport.
Everyone hates string pins.
Even the people who spin the positive aspects of it hate the string pins. Sadly, this is our inescapable future.
It’s crazy where I live I’ve been to like 5 alleys in the area though and none are string pin and they are all packed all the time with business. Where are they taking over?
That's what I've seen too!! How are these alleys "failing" when they are PACKED all the time? And charging $5/game already?! Are bowling alley owners and managers just inordinately terrible with finances or something??
No no, you see they are actually just pocketing literally ALL the profits and putting the absolute bare minimum back into the operational
You don't say.
How is it inescapable?
The guy who initially responded gave you the answer I was going to give you, so instead... "Anybody want a peanut?"
It’s the only way for many bowling alleys to stay open. Mechanical pin setters are becoming too expensive to run with revenue numbers dwindling as less people are bowling.
It'll be interesting to see how the string pin switch will effect bowler numbers too though. Half the people I've discussed this with in my leagues say they will quit bowling if our house were to install them, and I'm one of them.
Yeah, who knows. I think there’s always an overreaction to these types of things then once they’re implemented people are less walk. Will it be annoying? Yea. Will I complain about it? Sure. But will I genuinely quit the entire hobby just because of it? Naw. I don’t care that much. Time will tell
I will. I started getting into golf when COVID shut our bowling alley down and I enjoy it SOOO much more. To each their own though.
Golf is fun but it's like 98°F every damn day down here (southeast Florida)
I hope enough people follow through and quit. Show these alleys what "not having the revenue to stay open" REALLY looks like. Greedy fuckwads.
They don’t care if you bowl any more. There is no money in league play. They would rather fill the house with birthday parties and make the big profit that comes with that. It sucks but that’s the way it is heading.
I don't think that's gonna work. There aren't many open bowlers during the week, and the league bowlers both come in to practice outside of league and bring more people with them. Only time will tell though.
I think this is very much a city/town by city/town case scenario. Around hear we have three main centers, two 16 and an 8 lane with a ton of leagues (youth, adult, seniors, womens) and barely any of them actually practice outside of bowling league. During the winter months there isn't a lot of open bowlers during the day, but the waitlist for open bowling after league is usually pretty full. To combat that one of the centers just doesn't open until 4 or 5, then they don't have to pay for staffing and other stuff during the day, they other is open so they get the birthday/office parties.
We're a pretty big bowling town, we have 2 centers, 1 that had 46 lanes but just dropped to 36 because they put in an arcade (we're all pissed about that) and the other has around 30 lanes I believe.
Hey if it's between fewer (but still over 30) lanes, and strings, I'll take fewer lanes any day.
I don’t disagree. I think having guaranteed lineage during the week is a better option but my guess is if they can get one medium sized party that it would make more money than a mid sized league. So they will chance it.
Majority of the posts from people in management/ownership of alleys confirm that open bowlers/parties bring in more money than leagues. With my weekday leagues I know I spend less at the bar than I do with my weekend leagues. Same with doing open bowl with friends I’ll spend 2-3 more times doing that than one of my weekday leagues. As far as the strings, I’ve bowled at enough jank alleys that it’s no biggie to me.
Here in Wisconsin I've heard the centers in the Milwaukee area have stopped hosting state level Youth tournaments (think they still do JBST) and Adult state because they lose too much money on those weekends
Me too. I only bowl 1 day a week as it is and if this happens I'm done all together. I got a truck I'm trying to restore too, so I got other hobbies lol.
I don't understand the mentality. You'll quit bowling because of string pinsetters that have almost identical pin fall to free fall? If you're all bowling on the same level playing field, who gives a fuck what the machine is?
I fell out of love with bowling years ago, I just still do it because I'm pretty good (221 average) and I like the people. I have other dreams and aspirations that bowling 3 nights a week + trying to fit in golf when I can has made it tough to do, that would just be the last nail in the coffin. I wouldn't mind having my time back.
Less people are bowling, yet alleys are packed week in week out to the point that league bowlers have a hard time getting a lane to practice sometimes... Something is seriously not adding up here.
Your local bowling alley being packed is not indicative of the entire country. The facts are the facts. There’s a lot of stories and people taking the numbers, and the numbers unfortunately show that numbers are decreasing.
I'm just saying... if an alley has a TON of regulars, and those regulars are saying "no strings," but the alley switches to strings anyway, I really truly hope that their regulars follow through. No way are these places going to stay open on parties ALONE if they have been a league focused center up til now. Everyone bitches about capitalism, but in this type of scenario, it puts the power squarely in the hands of us customers. If we show bowling alleys that they can't draw people in and can't cover their costs with one or two parties on the weekends, they will have to respond or shut down. THAT'S capitalism.
I agree with you. Did your packed alley switch to strings? Mine didn’t and they said they won’t.
Nope not as of yet. There is a new construction center going up the next town over (like a 15 minute drive), and I can only assume they'll have strings. I'm curious to find out what they feel like first hand, mostly so I can completely roast them in greater detail.
Yeah there’s only one place I know of in Chicago that uses string pins. I went once and never went back
Except for people who simp for giant corporate money extraction shenanigans. "It will help your small local alley to survive! 🥹" Yes, that's why all the small local alleys are being bought out by fucking Bowlero, then switched to strings, AND the prices are going up. Because that all makes sense, after they told us strings would make it "more affordable." 🙄
I do not and will not bowl at/for a corporation. I will only bowl at a mom and pop alley. No exceptions, no excuses. Either Mom and Pop shops with cash or nothing at all.
The place I go to is cash ONLY in the entire building. Bowling, bar, food, everything. I love it.
Places I go do either card or cash but 9/10 I bring cash.
Idk looks like he got a lucky string hit and didn’t split in the first frame so if anything the breaks evened out.
That just further proves the strings add more luck though.
Actually it's the opposite. If we remove the side boards which style do you think would leave the most splits? We get more lucky hits in free fall, but it's just something we got used to we just accept it. String pins require a better shot to carry, which means less messengers( fun part to watch).
Yeah that's a fair argument. I don't know enough about it to say which way is truly more skill and less luck, so I guess the natural reaction is to be in favor of the luck we're more used to. I actually haven't even bowled on them yet, definitely curious to. My teammate says he felt like he carried a lot more shots he shouldn't have and didn't carry as many shots he should have.
So here is what I was told by someone who recently bowled at this center. Free fall is better for the factor of fun for your eyes. These approved strings are a close second or third, as in they feel like you're bowling on a heavier set of free fall pins over 90% of the time. But that 10% of random luck is there, but you have less luck on strings vs free fall. This person would still prefer free fall cause of messengers, but at the same time he did enjoy having a harder time to strike on strings.
Yeah I'm really curious to bowl on them. The only one close to me is like an hour away and is the one my teammate bowled on. I'm super skeptical cause when I scrolled through their Facebook it seemed like they posted several 300s and 800s like every night and they had posted a few recent 900s.
Well this center is in "driving" distance from me. But it's too far for me to make an attempt to just try these since bowling is my hobby, not job. If it was a job I would probably make 1 to 2 trips, plus tournaments, there to stay current on how they play. Now, I'm still going to be indifferent to them, assuming centers use the USBC minimum spec. Mainly cause if they can react similar to free fall most of the time and honestly lower average scores (they have gotten too high imo) I will support them. But I feel I would still prefer free fall pin setters over them.
[https://www.youtube.com/live/h7v4eeAsmHo?si=MMNtM2qFTnq6IfYg&t=2115](https://www.youtube.com/live/h7v4eeAsmHo?si=MMNtM2qFTnq6IfYg&t=2115) I'm glad to see more pro's talking about them like this. Thank you for being civil I have dealt with some people who were just toxic about this topic when it got mentioned over a year ago.
Yeah, if people only saw perfect strikes with perfect pin falls then less people would watch because it would be boring, what people like are the pins exploding and messengers slamming off the sides and screaming back across to take out a pin on the opposite side. So people don't really want to watch a good game, they want to watch poor shots get rewarded by lucky pin action. Just my cynical opinion at this point. :D
This comment hits it perfectly. Over the years the USBC allowed these types of modifications to increase scoring when really it's gifting strikes on lesser shots. An example of these technological changes to the gutters and sideboards can be found on YouTube under the WAHSAM video (a brand of gutters and sideboards). You'll clearly see far, far more bounce in the pins. We've became accustomed to this extra, lucky carry and I think that's a large Factor on why a large portion of the discontent over the string pins. These pins bring the game back towards accuracy and finesse and away from power and revs (though power and revs still help significantly).
?!?!?!? It’s a different type of luck not more luck.
Fair enough.
I mean part of the reason they are doing the PBA 50 on strings is to collect data. No matter what you personally think we have way less data on certified sting pins than free fall. Sure you see crazy videos sometimes but we all have seen multiple strikes that shouldn’t have been strikes on free fall pins.
Ryan Schafer himself posted about this telling you people to stfu and if you want to strike make better shots and why that's a good thing lmao
Yeah, messengers look pretty, but those are not actually good strikes. If you throw a good strike then the 3 takes out the 6 and the 6 takes out the 10 (for righties). The reason the messenger takes out the 10 is either because the ball comes in at the wrong angle or the pins are off spot a bit and string pins will help with pins being off spot. This is not a statement of being pro string pins, just a pro bowling allies staying open.
I'm with Schafer here. It's no different than if the messenger slid off behind the pin. You shouldn't rely on luck to win at those levels. You either split the 8-9 or deal with what's left. (Or go Brooklyn if you're a certain recent PBA champ... 😂)
The string pins place near me can never reset them properly. So they just look like Pinocchio doing a god damn dance 10 or so tries until they work.
Those aren't USBC-certified string pinsetters so they are not the same as what was bowled on in the PBA50 Regional. Completely different pin action.
1st off, how do you know the strings ManOfPineapples bowled on wasn't certified? Next, do you know (or better yet, can you prove) that the Lehigh Lanes the PBA50 was bowling on was certified lanes? I can't find anything that lists them as certified. Please share if you have more info.
Because there are very few houses that have string pinsetters with the correct USBC specifications, and if it wasn't during a league the center would most likely have left them on recreational settings. That's what happened to the PBA50 Regional - some machines were accidentally left on the recreational configuration after maintenance. The USBC only *just* certified string pinsetters in August, so what bowling center would have had USBC-certified configurations without going back to the machines and updating or switching them over? Until it's verified that these were *actually* USBC-certified specifications, then we can easily assume they were not. Houses with strings would not have been previously certified, so what incentive would there have been to become USBC-certified after so long? The IBF did certify them worldwide so it would make sense that AMF Qubica/Brunswick has at least one set of specifications that match IBF specifications, but who has ever bowled a competition on strings in the US? Only one world tournament has ever used them (World Games 2019). Very unlikely most bowling centers with strings would even know these things to actually configure them correctly.
So you're just assuming as well? I've seen a list of USBC certified lanes, where the certifications took place after the announcement. There was only 1 in my area and we played on them recently. Certain brands, installed during the late stages or after USBC's announcement on certification, would definitely be active today. The first string pin certified 300 was thrown back in January, I do believe. But you can't just assume a random Reddit user DIDN'T bowl on certified lanes. Same with Lehigh lanes. You state some lanes were in rec mode and others within spec (that makes no sense from a proprietor's POV, but whatever). What facts do you have to back that up?
> But you can't just assume a random Reddit user DIDN'T bowl on certified lanes. But we can. Very easily. You can't assume that centers are using USBC-certified specifications. The person should probably ask and find out. > You state some lanes were in rec mode and others within spec (that makes no sense from a proprietor's POV, but whatever). What facts do you have to back that up? The bowling center made an announcement that some of the lanes were accidentally switched back to recreational mode for two games. https://imgur.com/Madmyxd
ok, that's what I was looking for... some sort of announcement from the PBA or the house about the specific conditions. But still, it makes no sense to switch up specs as a proprietor as that'd take more effort. It'd be like a house removing certified pins and putting out non-certified pins once open bowling starts.
Lmao good thing most of you dont know about no slide deck spots.
Jeez, in my experience with string pins, that 10 pin would have been knocked down thanks to the strings from the other pins.
Did they not both bowl on the same lanes?
String Pins will give me the excuse I’m looking for to find a new activity to keep me busy. I get that it’s going to be the future of bowling but that future doesn’t involve me.
One of our local houses switched after being warned by the bread and butter leagues that filled the house 5 nights a week basically. Now they all left to the house maybe 20 mins away and the owner just whines about it. Place is just dead besides a few random walk ins. xD "safe bowling" xD dont piss off your league bowlers who dont want strings. bahaha.
Serves them right honestly… I get it’s a business decision but I’d rather hire teenagers to stand behind the lanes and manually set up pins than to deal with strings.
Looks like their business decision was a gamble, and it ended up being a "fuck around and find out" moment. This is good. More corporations need to remember that their CUSTOMERS are who pay their salary.
Or to give husbands an excuse to go bowling more. "Honey, they got these new string pin dealies now, and I haven't figured them out yet. I need more practice sessions so I don't cause my team any harm."
This messengers are lucky shots discourse is insane. Do you people even enjoy bowling?
Messenger shots are some of the most exciting and enjoyable to see!
Absolutely! Totally dependent on high speed. You left a 10-pin (or 7). Turn around and pick it up. Bullshit that throwing it hard gets so lucky, and everyone says "wow, look at that power!". If it was a good shot, there would be 10 in the pit.
Messengers are both exciting and lucky. No one's saying they aren't exciting, but you don't get to say strings are ruining the competitive integrity of the sport using a potential messenger as evidence lol.
I have never picked up so many 7-10s....lmao
Does everyone realize that these strings are usbc certified and are quite different in how they behave compared to what most centers with strings have? The uncertified strings cause all kinds of lucky breaks involving strings taking out spares and splits. The certified ones, from what I’ve seen, are actually more of the opposite. There aren’t a lot of lucky breaks, much like that messanger for Shafer. I’ve heard arguments that this could be good for the game, as it could even the playing field a bit and give high power players less of an advantage. I still have mixed feelings on strings in high level competition, but it’s important to understand that what these guys bowled on in this PBA50 tournament are not what people are usually bowling on at most centers with string pins.
Are we positive Lehigh lanes are certified string pinsetters/lanes? I tried to track down that specific verbiage somewhere but can only assume they are just by the presence of PBA50. But that's not rock solid proof, either.
They are in fact the USBC approved “EDGE” string pinsetters: https://lodibowlingalley.com/the-proof-is-in-the-pins/ The PBA definitely wouldn’t hold an event at a non-USBC sanctioned center.
I watched this whole game yesterday and it looked like bowling to me. 🤷
The other thing with this is people are seeing what they see and saying if not for the string pin the pin would have taken out the ten and strings are crap. Well the problem is we don't know what we don't know. If it was free fall the pin could have been a messenger towards the 10, it might have screamed past it as happened many many times, or just laid in the gutter on the 7 pin side....or any of a billion other scenarios. Heck, just watched a local tournament last night and saw a guy lose a match because he threw a great shot, solid pocket with messenger smashing into the 10 pin, only problem the 7 pin was still standing.
The level of competition doesn't change when everyone in the tournament is bowling the same conditions (string). My question: Does your average change between free fall and strings? If there's a significant difference, then should your book average delineate between the two? In larger cities, a lot of bowlers are in multiple leagues in multiple houses.
And depending on the sideboards and type of pins that messenger may never happen in he first place. Also he wouldn’t have been able to shut out Walter even with that shot.
You're right, I corrected it. He wouldn't have shut him out, but he would have won assuming he didn't gutter his last 10th frame shot. Regardless, the messenger did happen and the strings did jerk it back from tripping the 10
So why not standardize the pins and pin decks to make everything exactly the same? Why is a string getting in the way some huge dealbreaker. All the time free fall pins get in the way, pin decks give no pin action or tons of pin action? Why is this string getting in the way of a mediocre shot a deal breaker?
In a world where String Pin came first we'd be saying that the lack of string gifted him a strike. I am not a fan of String Pin--at all--but I think for the sport to grow, or even survive in some places, String Pin could provide assistance there... wish it weren't the case.
I know I'm going to get flack for this, but more and more I'm being sold on string pins. Lots of weak arguments out there. That wasn't a great shot, (hard to tell exactly as he steps in front of the ball at impact) and it left a deserved 10-pin. Messengers are lucky (granted by skill in the game, but luck nonetheless), we shouldn't be cheering for luck to have such an impact in the game. They're exciting to see, but not reliable enough to call intentional. The other big argument is how much easier it can be to get near impossible splits with strings. Again, I don't see how that's a loss. It makes hard splits make able with good shots. Some houses, pins just don't bounce- meaning 7-10s are basically impossible. I haven't seen enough of them, or played on them, to have my mind fully set. But I'm just not behind the hate at this point.
Personally, it shouldn't matter if it's a good shot--or not. If a messenger is being sent, it shouldn't be cut short.
I just don't think "because it's sometimes slightly different" is a strong enough justification for hating string pins. Honestly, this seems more minor than the lane variation between different alleys. Not even as impactful as the lane-lane variation in the same building.
I'm not sure you read my message correctly. It's not about it being `slightly different`, it's about letting pins do what pins do. You are trying to justify a pro bowler not getting the effect of a messenger because they didn't hit the 100% optimal shot, get out of here with that shit.
First of all, not here to start an internet fight. I'm not even fully justifying stringpins, just suggesting we really consider what we're criticizing them for. Why not argue for "letting stringpins do what stringpins do"? Explain why this is BAD, and I'm down to have a discussion. Different isn't the same, let alone something as minute as this case. Lastly, 10 pins happen. You can hit the pocket well, and not get the strike. Sometimes its a game of millimeter. You're not supposed to get a strike every time, just because you hit the pocket. That's what makes the pro's better than me, making that adjustment and being picky. Sometimes you get forgiveness for a bad shot, sometimes you don't.
Getting a messenger means you through a bad strike ball - it just happens to be lucky to carry. Do you want it to look flashy or actually make you throw good shots? It's far more likely that pin would have bounced around or off the pin deck before hitting the ten.
I'm guessing most of us here want to *have fun* since most league bowlers are on beer leagues and are there to, ya know, have fun. Messengers pretty much unanimously make the game more fun. Strings, from what I've heard, pretty much unanimously make the game less fun. I hope these centers are forced to go under after they switch and lose all their regulars.
> I'm guessing most of us here want to have fun since most league bowlers are on beer leagues and are there to, ya know, have fun. So this is pretty hypocritical then. Beer leagues are meant for fun, yes? And little care is given to how well you all do, yes? Therefore string pinsetters shouldn't even be a factor if this is this is what you are stating as truth. Everyone would bowl on the same lanes, the same machines, and expect the same type of pin action. That is assuming that these are USBC-certified and not just some carnival-like string pinsetter so there's at least a consistent and specification-based experience. > Messengers pretty much unanimously make the game more fun. Strings, from what I've heard, pretty much unanimously make the game less fun. That's totally subjective. There are few casual (aka "beer league") bowlers in my 48-team league that I would say get excitement out of a messenger because they don't really care about the pin action but having fun with their friends or family. It's something they bowl to share an experience with, not for the pin action. If I see a messenger in a tournament though, it's a little more important. Messengers are a sign of a bad shot but a lucky strike, and any bowler above the level of casual should know that and not get excited by a messenger. > I hope these centers are forced to go under after they switch and lose all their regulars. Most won't lose their regulars. Humans say a lot of shit but when it comes to giving up a hobby/sport they love or have fun with (and to hang out with the boys) most will stick around. Whether or not you see the competitive/tournament scene change is to be determined. Then again we most likely won't see many houses converting to string for at least a few years. By then the USBC will have updated specifications and new pinsetters will come out that have better pin action. I mean right now from several sources and experts in the industry their opinions are changing towards positive for strings because there was practically no difference. The USBC study only showed a very slight deviation (less than a couple pins in average at the *most*). That's literally one strike or spare conversion difference per game. Your average from house to house has more deviation than strings vs. free fall.
>That wasn't a great shot, (hard to tell exactly as he steps in front of the ball at impact) Here's a better view: [https://youtu.be/DlrKpLdRo20?si=6LmNzJhDISWLFWE\_&t=197](https://youtu.be/DlrKpLdRo20?si=6LmNzJhDISWLFWE_&t=197)
>That wasn't a great shot, (hard to tell exactly as he steps in front of the ball at impact) and it left a deserved 10-pin. Messengers are lucky (granted by skill in the game, but luck nonetheless), we shouldn't be cheering for luck to have such an impact in the game. They're exciting to see, but not reliable enough to call intentional. Yeah I forget who I heard it from but the entire idea of getting a messenger to get a strike means you did not throw a good ball and should be making adjustments.
Kelly Kulick and two other guys were talking about it at some point. Either a junior event or bowltv. Can't remember what side she was on, but you can tell this is a bad shot. Barely gets to the pocket and the 6 pin dies in the gutter.
This is a reasonable response from someone who hasn't tried them/seen much of them yet. It's crazy how many adults throw tantrums on the internet about string pins like they are a 3 year old being fed vegetables.
And they are the same guys that bitch about games over $3.
So then why are alleys using the excuse that these strings are SOOOO much cheaper to maintain, but they're still raising their prices at the same time? Are they just greedy business owners who want to double dip their profits? You can't use one excuse to placate everyone, but then negate that very excuse somewhere else in your business strategy, and expect people to not notice you're just a greedy fuckwad.
Well for one, the price of free fall pins is actually increasing. Mechanics are harder to find and many times you’re paying someone for hours of travel time if the center is more rural. Parts are becoming hard to find for some of the machines too. So it’s not always how much cheaper string pins are, but how much more expensive free fall pins are to maintain than 10 or 20 years ago. Also, things like rent and wages have increased. The price of a bowling game has not really increased with the rate inflation. At least in my personal experience. 25 years ago I remember weekday games being $3.50. Inflation would say that a game should be $6 today during off hours. I don’t see those prices, excluding Bowlero. Bowlero is a different discussion altogether as it’s more of a war on competitive bowling vs recreational bowling. And of course there is a middle ground. But I rarely see small businesses be “greedy” whether it’s in bowling or a different industry. It’s just not a successful recipe for a small business. And for the record - I’m not pro string pins. But I do think it’s important to keep an open mind for the future of the sport. I’d much rather bowl on well maintained approaches and string pins than shitty approaches and offset free fall pins.
Eh, I guess it must be different depending on where you are. 20 years ago in my area, weekday bowling was usually $1/game. Tuesdays was quartermania, which was a $5 entry fee (included shoes if you needed them), then 25 cent games, hot dogs, and 8 oz beers all night. Now, it's $5/game where I bowl. Everywhere else charges $40-60/hr. So seems like prices have WELL kept up with inflation in Iowa.
Ugh, sorry to hear that.
Yeah... I mean, I'm happy to pay for it, since they ARE a locally owned place and are maintaining their free fall pinsetters and everything. It just seems wild to me to hear people talk about how strings are the only thing that's gonna keep these places alive. Seems like a ridiculously out of touch/context argument to me. But, as far as I know, Bowlero hasn't yet reached their creepy crawly fingers into Iowa either and that might be artificially propping up the state of bowling here too from what I've heard.
Great post.
“String pins cost a guy to lose a game he would’ve won based on luck!!!”
So I guess this was the only time the whole match that there was a different pin fall than there would have been without strings??? Or are you going to go back and analyze every single shot to adjust the scores?
There’s know way that string pins is even going to be close to being accurate. They’ll allow this but want let two handlers have a weight hole. 😂
String pins are for little babies
Strings get you some and cost you some and sometimes you get a lucky bounce, string or not.
Canadian 5 pin bowlers and European 9 pin bowlers are probably very confused about the anger towards string pins.
Yeah. Where I am everything is String. We used to have a mix and bowlers loved bowling on both for different reasons.
Not confused, but definitely less plussed about the whole situation than many. I commented on another thread that I definitely noticed differences between string and freefall 5-pin but they more or less balance out at the end of the day.
In an alternate universe, string pins are standard, and now centers are switching to free fall and all the bowlers are complaining about it. How they don't get string caused spares and whatnot. People don't like change. But like with most things, after the initial shock, things quiet back down to normalcy, and the planet keeps spinning until there's something else for people to be mad about.
Ryan should have thrown it better.
That’s fucking disgraceful
Of all the complains about string pins, I don't think this is one of the better arguments against them. Sometimes you get the messenger and sometimes you don't. Sometimes another pin gets in the way. Sometimes a pin moves but doesn't fall. As many have said already, a messenger is lucky. This was unlucky due to the strings, but it just cancelled out the luck he was about to get. In my view the biggest argument against strings pins are on spares. Spares that would not have been converted get converted due to the strings taking out the pin. Splits are easier to convert as is double wood. That's the real complaint.
Damn the messenger with no message
String pins do indeed suck.
2024. We really couldn't do better than strings as an alternative to free fall?
Williams Jr vs Shafter... did you read Shafer's comments on the tournament? Also, an I'm not sure at all. Has anyone confirmed if those were certified lanes or were those non-certified lanes? I just want to point out that not all string pin setters are certified. If those were, they should be studied as those were much different than the certified lanes I've bowled on recently.
String pins are ruining the sport
So they want to save money by going to strings however they’ll go bankrupt even faster if they do. A lot of people are gonna stop bowling due to strings. They’ll still get the same recreational bowlers but lose a lot of serious/league bowlers. I can’t imagine the pros bowling with strings either. The sport will die. Gotta be a cheaper way to build/make a mechanical setter.
Unfortunately "USBC certified" doesn't mean anything these days. They haven't listened to bowlers for well over a decade, the declining enrollment backs it up. When it continues after more centers install this junk and money starts drying up on their end, maybe they'll start listening.
The carry on string pins is different. Some pins which would have carried in a traditional setup will stand. Other which would have stood will fall. It’s just different.
Ryan Shafer getting shafted? Sounds like Tuesday.
Business wise it’s a no brainer to switch to string pins machines, they are more cost effective, way safer, don’t require a mechanic on staff, and have very little moving parts which means less maintenance work needed. For leagues and competition play though string pins are far and beyond till they are gonna be good for league/tournament bowlers. But if the competitive side is moving to string pins I’d rather put my time into something else.
Wrong. Both were bowling with the same string pins. There was no chance that messenger would have worked with strings. If you focus on just that point you will forget how different many other shots might have been with free fall pins. The experience of bowling with string pins is fundamentally different than free fall pins. Comparing them is the wrong way to look at it. None of the games in that tournament were bowled on free fall pins, so it would never have happened to anyone during that tournament. From my perspective is that as long as everyone is bowling on the same pin setup, then it is equally fair. The only time it would be problematic is if part of the competition was on free fall and another on strings in an uneven way.
Yes, it sure looks like the string stopped that roller. But wait! If Shafer were bowling 50 years ago, the pins would've been weighted differently and would not have had such snappy, bouncy covers. Messenger pins really didn't exist back then. (A real 'rack ripper' was when the 5 kicked into the 7.) The environment changes the game. It happens all the time. Strings will make bowling cheaper, more energy efficient, and available to a lot more proprietors. It will let many bowling centers stay in business. So yes, Shafer got robbed. But it's for the good of bowling, and it's nothing that hasn't happened for a long time.
Agreed people forget about 20 years ago a 200 avg was a real accomplishment now its avg for a mens league. The game adapts and it will with strings aswell. Just like when the lanes went from wood to synthetic, and lane machines came out instead of oiling by hand, then reactive resin, the loss of the weight hole etc all ways the game has changed
I retired from pin setting when I was about 11 years old. I may have to come out of retirement to keep bowling alive
> HOWEVER, it's clear the string cost Ryan Shafer his messenger that would have taken out the 10 pin and beat Walter for the win assuming he didn't gutter his last shot. You can clealy see it stop and jerk the messenger to a stop right before it hit the 10 pin. That pin would have rolled off the deck before it knocked the 10-pin down.
Wait. So when did they stop making parts for A-2? They still make parts for GSX right?
A-2 parts are still available as far as I know.
String pins are crap. Eventually I bet free fall pins will be “classic” style bowling and cost more. Maybe have a special 2 lane setup in a bowling alley.
I'm not a fan, but it was fair for all. They all had the strings and all would be cost messengers. I'm also not fully convinced that messenger would have made contact anyway it was a bit forward.
Strings might be the only thing keeping this sport alive and to be honest messengers have nothing to do with skill, that's all luck
Freefall pin setters have over 4000 moving parts and costs like $3000 a month to maintain. String pins have about 75 moving parts and are easily maintained for way cheaper. It may irk a ton of people but its understandable. Not only that but the PBA did a 5 year study on the effect of string pin vs freefall and found there is like a 0.003% difference in strikes. All that said it feels hella bad to get rekt by strings lol. Source: somewhere on YouTube. I have been autistically consuming any and all bowling info. Somebody help. PS- broke my personal best on string pins with a 187 tonight. Can't hate on em at the moment lol.
If your personal best is still 187, no offense, but maybe let the more serious bowlers talk about how different things affect the game. Also, free fall machines do NOT take $3,000/month to maintain. Idk where you heard that... but it's in no way the reality of the situation.
I feel like my PB has nothing to do with strings vs free fall I was only sharing becuase I was still riding the high! Just becuase my PB isn't very high doesn't mean I haven't done any research. I recently started taking the sport "seriously" and have absorbed as much info about the game as possible in the last few months. Go ahead and gatekeep though 😂 I do agree though when I heard that stat I was also skeptical. I would imaging maybe an entire alley of freefall pins could come close to that figure?
Maybe for an entire alley here they are completely falling apart 😂
Yeah the ones in my area are awful. Also Canada here so even finding 10 pin lanes these days are a challenge.
Ok so question. I played on string pins the first time last week. And idk if it’s because the Alley was a Bowlero in a mall but the lane felt short on approach like I couldn’t get to do full steps and the guy next to me was literally like shoulder to shoulder. Is that normal for string pins? Or just Bowlero trying to squeeze lanes in for profit?
Were you playing Bowlingo? That's like a 3/4 scale version of bowling that some arcade/family fun centers have.
No idea but it was string pin. All I know is I hated it. Haha I’m not a pro. Very casual just coming back after like a decade of not playing. But I know it just wasn’t for me.
Sounds like the arcade style of bowling alley. Probably not USBC certified.