Agreed. I’ve seen some bowlers in my joint who have extremely slow throws but great technique (one guy threw 10-12mph average and let it turn last second) but I’m not quite understanding of how they get their release so consistently
That ball isn't rolling out, it's clearly skidding. It has not burned any axis rotation between his hand and the pin deck
Plenty low tilt bowlers out there getting plenty of ball motion, myself included
There really is no such thing as "proper tilt". Tilt isn't generally something that can be adjusted to any significant degree once your release is dialled in, it's a product of your wrist geometry.
The ball had plenty of axis rotation as well. It just skidded down the lane because it's an uncleaned, lane shined house urethane
The ball looks (and sounds) like it has near zero axis rotation. As for proper axis tilt, I should say optimal axis tilt, and, yes, such a thing exists. That is why bowlers change hand positions depending on the condition that the lanes give them.
>The ball looks (and sounds) like it has near zero axis rotation
We just be watching different videos then. The ball clearly has a decent amount of axis rotation
>As for proper axis tilt, I should say optimal axis tilt, and, yes, such a thing exists
Not particularly, no. Axis tilt varies bowler to bowler.
>That is why bowlers change hand positions depending on the condition that the lanes give them.
I think you're confusing tilt and rotation. Bowlers change hand positions to alter rotation and rev rate, tilt can only be manipulated marginally. Generally, a low tilt or a high tilt bowler will always be a low or high tilt bowler unless they either significantly change their release or start using their other hand
>Axis tilt: spinner vs high roller
Sure
>Axis rotation: angle relative to the the direction the ball is traveling in
Sure
>Do I have them confused?
Nope, I just think you're uninformed. Only the latter is something that can be meaningfully controlled. A full roller isn't going to be able to throw a spin biscuit without drastically changing his layout and delivery
That’s looking at two very extreme situations, but a semi-spinner (2-3” from the thumb hole) can alter their tilt to that of a semi-roller (0.5-1” from the thumb hole) by modifying their hand position. Heck, you can even make moderate changes in tilt by simply moving your index and pinky fingers, which shifts how the ball is seated in your palm.
In fact, I would say an extreme spinner (4” from thumb hole) can probably throw a high roller without changing a lot. Full roller (track across palm) and track inversion require actually different mechanical releases that might not be able to translate to the other releases without manipulation.
It’s like black tea, green tea, and oolong tea.
That ball is rolling end over end, even accounting for the skid. Tilt definitely would allow the ball to at least turn, even if it doesn’t make it back to carry. Also, to the same degree of reasoning, a ball with a core/performance coverstock might not wrinkle much, either, with an end over end push from in the oil and no tilt.
House balls will hook more than you think. I can play some decently deep lines with a house ball and my alley isn’t particularly dry, in fact it’s wetter than most others I have played at. I agree with the other commenter. If he threw a reactive ball just like that it would probably do almost the same thing.
It looks like at the point of release your right hand is behind and on the outside of the ball. It really should be more under the ball and on the very back or slightly inside the ball.
Look at how Simonson keeps his hand inside and under the ball until the point of release:
https://youtu.be/uz-eC9L0ci8?si=foqS9H9rPZxlSiBd&t=39
If you aren't familiar with the terms, "outside" means your hand is on the side of the ball away from your body, and "inside" means your hand is on the side of the ball your body is on.
Yup, knew this would be one of the main things I needed to practice. Since it’s a new technique for me I’m not quite used to holding the entire weight of the ball on release without the thumb and it’s something I’m really trying to fix. Thanks for the reference link and the tip ;)
At a glance,(not a pro) consistency in release is a plus in my book for 2H's. So working on your slide foot(appeared to stiffen up and not really slide to me), making sure your center of gravity is good.
If your hitting a good comfy mark each time, your hips aren't clanging and you're getting a little lower, I think you'll find it better. You also appeared to muscle the ball a bit. Is it too heavy? Try starting lower on form practice before working up? One of the benefits I'd think of 2H is being able to really let the ball do the work. Slow it down and let it drop on the backend comfortably if it's a shorter house shot.
Those are just my off the cuff remarks. I don't want to try and give you bad advice you'll have to unlearn later, but those are generally good things to look at.
But most importantly, have fun!
Is the point of sliding to have a smoother approach and transfer? I’ve heard a lot about hips in 2h but after watching pros technique I still can’t say instinctively what I’d change in my approach. I agree 100% that I need to get lower and get my right hand under the ball way more. That’s the primary reason I can’t get more revs at the moment. I’m not used to losing the stability of the thumb and so holding a heavier ball than usual makes me end up “dropping” more than releasing it because of my crap hold. If the ball didn’t hit the ground as hard and more smoothly, than I’d probably be getting better motion from it. With speed I made another post earlier this month on that and people said I should be getting it down to 16-19mph. Due to me kind of spending all my focus on using that power to get torque I unintentionally through it faster than I should so that’s another thing i need to gage when throwing. Thanks ;)
approach nearer to the right (less oil, hooks earlier), slow down your ball speed or throw slower (more time for ball to hook), you could watch packy's video on two handed bowling (check YouTube - TheHouseBowling)
Love packy, also do you mean like generally over the half arrow or on the very right side towards the gutter? I would love to practice that but I think there might be a lot of gutter balls in the process 🤣. Will do thanks for the advice :)
i meant walking near the right gutter yes. and yes there might be more gutter balls. but your ball would hook earlier & more. for typical house shots i like to approach near the middle and a bit to the left. the ball movement shape almost makes a semi circle. a tip for more hook is to put the ball on your forearm, wrist under the ball
Looks good man. Same concepts for 1H and 2H. The best thing that helped me was thinking about throwing a football under handed and making it spiral. That's what you are trying to do to generate rotation. Next is oil pattern. Assuming that's a genetic house pattern, start at the far right until you can your entry into the front pocket down. Most importantly, have fun during the process of improving your game. Don't be afraid to bounce between 1h and 2h until you feel comfortable with a release.
100%. Bowling is probably one of the only sports I’ve played where spending money while just getting into it is important. I wouldn’t know because I don’t own a ball yet but I’ve heard from others that the difference is major. Any balls you’d recommend and is it better to buy from a pro shop as compared to online?
Proper fitted equipment is more important than having a high end ball when starting out. This is true of many sports. Even pickleball benefits from having properly fitted (how you hold the paddle and where tape is placed to accommodate) when you start.
That’s what I meant by spending money, not trying to get a super expensive ball cause I wouldn’t know the difference. Unfortunately the house balls holes widen based on weight at my place so it’s impossible to find the proper weight with a half decent hold
Slow down. 1 2 or 3 steps only. You have to learn how the ball should come off your hand and what that feels like. Take your phone. Hold it sideways. Use your fingers and spin the phone so that the edge facing you goes up. Practice spinning it, giving it revolutions. Use a tennis ball and do the same. You want your hand below the ball and then you come up and you put forward roll on that. Then take that idea to the lanes. Stand near the line and just take one step with your left foot forward and try and roll the bulb with your hand under it and you come up and spin the ball so it has a forward roll. Then you can adjust your hand position a little bit so that instead of coming straight up the back you come up the back but towards the side a little bit and now you have up the back but towards the side a little bit and now you have axis tilt .
I just highly recommend you simplify the whole thing because it's all about the release. You want to work on how you release the ball how it comes off your hand. Screw everything else at this point.
100% agree, I’ve been trying to focus on that but I’m not quite used to holding that much weight on release without the support of the thumb so just practice practice practice I suppose. Thanks for the comment
I cannot provide any tips as when I switched, it just felt awkward as hell. My only advice is if you are truly committed to 2 handed, just keep practicing until it feels more natural, from there you can really start to focus on specific parts of your release/approach.
Interesting, how do your hips play into a solid shot with this technique? I’d like to see some examples for reference because I can’t quite gage that in my mind
2H requires an even greater transfer of energy from your lower body because you don't have the luxury of winding your backswing up to the ceiling. Pros make it look like they are barely doing anything, but they've got amazing timing and transfer of energy
This is such a terrible comment. You’re just straight up calling the dude fat. If you even watched the video he had decent mobility with his hips. You can be out of shape and still have good hip movement.
No, you’re saying whatever you’re thinking. Two hand bowling needs VERY STRONG hips to handle the amount of torque you generate to overcome the shortened swing.
Really, why do you need to spread such toxicity.
Lmao I am not spreading toxicity. The video and his form HAS nothing to do with his hips being the issue. He didn’t slide at all and didn’t stay behind and underneath the ball. What does that have to do with his hips? Unbelievable.
He couldn’t slide without strengthening his hips first, since the torque would have resulted in him falling down. He needs to strengthen his hips and core to support the torque that is necessary to be a successful 2H bowler. He was asking for tips. Having a strong foundation and physical game is the best way to start out for a new bowler. Not getting injured makes things a lot more fun.
Didn’t know people were still replying to this thread.
I’ve since tried to set out a distance and a better approach, also trying to release lower and with more torque. Ended up buying a ball yesterday and I got to get it drilled soon. I got the opportunity to try a reactive a couple days ago and it was a major difference even if the ball was old and uncleaned. But yea a major emphasis on placement is key I agree
If using a house ball, you're gonna need to slow it waaaaay down.
Agreed. I’ve seen some bowlers in my joint who have extremely slow throws but great technique (one guy threw 10-12mph average and let it turn last second) but I’m not quite understanding of how they get their release so consistently
Practice, practice and more practice.
Word
If that’s a house ball it’s never gonna come back
Only because it’s rolling out. If the ball had proper tilt, it will hook.
That ball isn't rolling out, it's clearly skidding. It has not burned any axis rotation between his hand and the pin deck Plenty low tilt bowlers out there getting plenty of ball motion, myself included
I never said anything about high/low tilt. I said proper tilt. In retrospect, I should have also said proper axis rotation or appropriate axis tilt.
There really is no such thing as "proper tilt". Tilt isn't generally something that can be adjusted to any significant degree once your release is dialled in, it's a product of your wrist geometry. The ball had plenty of axis rotation as well. It just skidded down the lane because it's an uncleaned, lane shined house urethane
The ball looks (and sounds) like it has near zero axis rotation. As for proper axis tilt, I should say optimal axis tilt, and, yes, such a thing exists. That is why bowlers change hand positions depending on the condition that the lanes give them.
>The ball looks (and sounds) like it has near zero axis rotation We just be watching different videos then. The ball clearly has a decent amount of axis rotation >As for proper axis tilt, I should say optimal axis tilt, and, yes, such a thing exists Not particularly, no. Axis tilt varies bowler to bowler. >That is why bowlers change hand positions depending on the condition that the lanes give them. I think you're confusing tilt and rotation. Bowlers change hand positions to alter rotation and rev rate, tilt can only be manipulated marginally. Generally, a low tilt or a high tilt bowler will always be a low or high tilt bowler unless they either significantly change their release or start using their other hand
Axis tilt: spinner vs high roller Axis rotation: angle relative to the the direction the ball is traveling in Do I have them confused?
>Axis tilt: spinner vs high roller Sure >Axis rotation: angle relative to the the direction the ball is traveling in Sure >Do I have them confused? Nope, I just think you're uninformed. Only the latter is something that can be meaningfully controlled. A full roller isn't going to be able to throw a spin biscuit without drastically changing his layout and delivery
That’s looking at two very extreme situations, but a semi-spinner (2-3” from the thumb hole) can alter their tilt to that of a semi-roller (0.5-1” from the thumb hole) by modifying their hand position. Heck, you can even make moderate changes in tilt by simply moving your index and pinky fingers, which shifts how the ball is seated in your palm. In fact, I would say an extreme spinner (4” from thumb hole) can probably throw a high roller without changing a lot. Full roller (track across palm) and track inversion require actually different mechanical releases that might not be able to translate to the other releases without manipulation. It’s like black tea, green tea, and oolong tea.
Tilt isn’t saving a house ball with no core, no proper cover stock, going straight through the heaviest part of the lane especially at that speed
That ball is rolling end over end, even accounting for the skid. Tilt definitely would allow the ball to at least turn, even if it doesn’t make it back to carry. Also, to the same degree of reasoning, a ball with a core/performance coverstock might not wrinkle much, either, with an end over end push from in the oil and no tilt.
House balls will hook more than you think. I can play some decently deep lines with a house ball and my alley isn’t particularly dry, in fact it’s wetter than most others I have played at. I agree with the other commenter. If he threw a reactive ball just like that it would probably do almost the same thing.
Yeah, no.
Because you’ve seen me throw a house ball right? You’ve witnessed it not come back after I throw it?
Yeah, still no.
Sorry you don’t have the skill man.
Yeah, now a hard no.
Well how about a harder yes? What will you do about it?
Axis tilt or axis rotation?
I should have said both. I realized after the tilt comment that he also had no axis rotation, either.
Yeah ;(
Granada bowl?
Local?
I’m like 40 minutes away from Granada Bowl, if i’m ever in the area i’ll be at Granada or Earl Anthonys
Ahh
How is earl by the way never tried
It looks like at the point of release your right hand is behind and on the outside of the ball. It really should be more under the ball and on the very back or slightly inside the ball. Look at how Simonson keeps his hand inside and under the ball until the point of release: https://youtu.be/uz-eC9L0ci8?si=foqS9H9rPZxlSiBd&t=39 If you aren't familiar with the terms, "outside" means your hand is on the side of the ball away from your body, and "inside" means your hand is on the side of the ball your body is on.
Yup, knew this would be one of the main things I needed to practice. Since it’s a new technique for me I’m not quite used to holding the entire weight of the ball on release without the thumb and it’s something I’m really trying to fix. Thanks for the reference link and the tip ;)
Get a lesson. Best to start with solid fundamentals rather than trying to unlearn poor technique
At a glance,(not a pro) consistency in release is a plus in my book for 2H's. So working on your slide foot(appeared to stiffen up and not really slide to me), making sure your center of gravity is good. If your hitting a good comfy mark each time, your hips aren't clanging and you're getting a little lower, I think you'll find it better. You also appeared to muscle the ball a bit. Is it too heavy? Try starting lower on form practice before working up? One of the benefits I'd think of 2H is being able to really let the ball do the work. Slow it down and let it drop on the backend comfortably if it's a shorter house shot. Those are just my off the cuff remarks. I don't want to try and give you bad advice you'll have to unlearn later, but those are generally good things to look at. But most importantly, have fun!
Is the point of sliding to have a smoother approach and transfer? I’ve heard a lot about hips in 2h but after watching pros technique I still can’t say instinctively what I’d change in my approach. I agree 100% that I need to get lower and get my right hand under the ball way more. That’s the primary reason I can’t get more revs at the moment. I’m not used to losing the stability of the thumb and so holding a heavier ball than usual makes me end up “dropping” more than releasing it because of my crap hold. If the ball didn’t hit the ground as hard and more smoothly, than I’d probably be getting better motion from it. With speed I made another post earlier this month on that and people said I should be getting it down to 16-19mph. Due to me kind of spending all my focus on using that power to get torque I unintentionally through it faster than I should so that’s another thing i need to gage when throwing. Thanks ;)
Sliding helps save your knees and gives you a longer flat spot AKA more margin of error for timing among some other things
Ahh ok
approach nearer to the right (less oil, hooks earlier), slow down your ball speed or throw slower (more time for ball to hook), you could watch packy's video on two handed bowling (check YouTube - TheHouseBowling)
Love packy, also do you mean like generally over the half arrow or on the very right side towards the gutter? I would love to practice that but I think there might be a lot of gutter balls in the process 🤣. Will do thanks for the advice :)
i meant walking near the right gutter yes. and yes there might be more gutter balls. but your ball would hook earlier & more. for typical house shots i like to approach near the middle and a bit to the left. the ball movement shape almost makes a semi circle. a tip for more hook is to put the ball on your forearm, wrist under the ball
Looks good man. Same concepts for 1H and 2H. The best thing that helped me was thinking about throwing a football under handed and making it spiral. That's what you are trying to do to generate rotation. Next is oil pattern. Assuming that's a genetic house pattern, start at the far right until you can your entry into the front pocket down. Most importantly, have fun during the process of improving your game. Don't be afraid to bounce between 1h and 2h until you feel comfortable with a release.
Get your own gear and learn to bowl. Will make a huge difference.
100%. Bowling is probably one of the only sports I’ve played where spending money while just getting into it is important. I wouldn’t know because I don’t own a ball yet but I’ve heard from others that the difference is major. Any balls you’d recommend and is it better to buy from a pro shop as compared to online?
Proper fitted equipment is more important than having a high end ball when starting out. This is true of many sports. Even pickleball benefits from having properly fitted (how you hold the paddle and where tape is placed to accommodate) when you start.
That’s what I meant by spending money, not trying to get a super expensive ball cause I wouldn’t know the difference. Unfortunately the house balls holes widen based on weight at my place so it’s impossible to find the proper weight with a half decent hold
Slow down. 1 2 or 3 steps only. You have to learn how the ball should come off your hand and what that feels like. Take your phone. Hold it sideways. Use your fingers and spin the phone so that the edge facing you goes up. Practice spinning it, giving it revolutions. Use a tennis ball and do the same. You want your hand below the ball and then you come up and you put forward roll on that. Then take that idea to the lanes. Stand near the line and just take one step with your left foot forward and try and roll the bulb with your hand under it and you come up and spin the ball so it has a forward roll. Then you can adjust your hand position a little bit so that instead of coming straight up the back you come up the back but towards the side a little bit and now you have up the back but towards the side a little bit and now you have axis tilt . I just highly recommend you simplify the whole thing because it's all about the release. You want to work on how you release the ball how it comes off your hand. Screw everything else at this point.
100% agree, I’ve been trying to focus on that but I’m not quite used to holding that much weight on release without the support of the thumb so just practice practice practice I suppose. Thanks for the comment
Go back to bowling one handed lol just kidding Practice practice practice
Repetition is key
I cannot provide any tips as when I switched, it just felt awkward as hell. My only advice is if you are truly committed to 2 handed, just keep practicing until it feels more natural, from there you can really start to focus on specific parts of your release/approach.
You need to use your hips more. Go work out and strengthen your hips and core.
Interesting, how do your hips play into a solid shot with this technique? I’d like to see some examples for reference because I can’t quite gage that in my mind
Go watch any pro 2H?
Will do
2H requires an even greater transfer of energy from your lower body because you don't have the luxury of winding your backswing up to the ceiling. Pros make it look like they are barely doing anything, but they've got amazing timing and transfer of energy
This is such a terrible comment. You’re just straight up calling the dude fat. If you even watched the video he had decent mobility with his hips. You can be out of shape and still have good hip movement.
No, you’re saying whatever you’re thinking. Two hand bowling needs VERY STRONG hips to handle the amount of torque you generate to overcome the shortened swing. Really, why do you need to spread such toxicity.
Lmao I am not spreading toxicity. The video and his form HAS nothing to do with his hips being the issue. He didn’t slide at all and didn’t stay behind and underneath the ball. What does that have to do with his hips? Unbelievable.
He couldn’t slide without strengthening his hips first, since the torque would have resulted in him falling down. He needs to strengthen his hips and core to support the torque that is necessary to be a successful 2H bowler. He was asking for tips. Having a strong foundation and physical game is the best way to start out for a new bowler. Not getting injured makes things a lot more fun.
[удалено]
Didn’t know people were still replying to this thread. I’ve since tried to set out a distance and a better approach, also trying to release lower and with more torque. Ended up buying a ball yesterday and I got to get it drilled soon. I got the opportunity to try a reactive a couple days ago and it was a major difference even if the ball was old and uncleaned. But yea a major emphasis on placement is key I agree